Israel took a dump on Gaza again....

[Hondo]

Just when I convince myself these people can't be that stupid, they come up with something like this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_tape_gaza

Guess I was wrong. They really are that stupid. Maybe thats why he's only the #2 man.

There's nothing Obama can do about Gaza or anything else yet you idiot.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve....that is lame. Anyone who is objective knows damned well from picking up the Bible knows that the Jewish faith started in the "holy land" and the roots of Christianity and Islam are from the area as well. It is why any deal to put one nation in there with a religious foot in only one of the three camps who started this is so contentious.

That said, Christian's don't really object to the Jewish state being superimposed over the holy land. It is the Muslims who object and while I can say they should have some more access to places like the dome of the rock, it has been available to them in ways I can tell you most Islamic nations wouldn't tolerate if the situation was reversed.

Israel is where it is now...for better or worse. After 60 years they are not going to go anywhere so rather than stand around with flapping your gums about the injustice of of all, why don't you suggest a peaceful solution to the issue? Israel wants peace. They have proved it in their dealings with Egypt and Jordan. They pulled out of the Golan Heights as a sign of good faith with Syria. What they wont do is lay prostrate as some Hamas thug fires rockets into Israeli towns....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just when I convince myself these people can't be that stupid, they come up with something like this:.
Report: Al-Qaida No. 2 blames Obama for Gaza fight
AP CAIRO, Egypt – Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader lashed out at President-elect Barack Obama in a new audio message Tuesday, accusing him of not doing anything to stop Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip, according to an intelligence monitoring center.

The recording purportedly by Ayman al-Zawahiri was al-Qaida's first comments on the Gaza crisis since Israel launched its offensive against the Islamic militants of Hamas on Dec. 27.

In the comments, which were posted on a militant Web site and obtained by the SITE Monitoring Service, al-Zawahiri described Israel's actions in Gaza as a "crusade against Islam and Muslims" and called it "Obama's gift to Israel" before he takes office later this month.

"This is Obama whom the American machine of lies tried to portray as the rescuer who will change the policy of America," al-Zawahiri said, according to SITE. "He kills your brothers and sisters in Gaza mercilessly and without affection."

Al-Zawahiri, who is Egyptian, also criticized Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, calling him a "traitor" for keeping Egypt's border with the Gaza Strip closed since Hamas seized power.

"At the time when Israeli planes drop their bombs from the air, he closes the borders with his forces so that the plan of the killing of believers in Gaza is fulfilled," al-Zawahiri said, according to SITE.

He urged Egyptians and Muslims around the world to pressure Mubarak into opening the border and to take a more active role in fighting Israel.

Thousands of people in cities worldwide have held mass street demonstrations to protest Israel's offensive, but al-Zawahiri said those were not enough.

"Fight the Zionist Crusader campaign," al-Zawahiri said, according to SITE. "Strike its interests everywhere you can reach them. Support and back your mujahedeen brothers and children against them."

The audio message was accompanied by a still photograph of the al-Qaida leader sitting with a gun in his lap.

The recording could not be immediately verified, but SITE said it was posted on Web sites commonly used by Islamic militants. The recording also carried the logo for al-Qaida's media production house, Al-Sahab.



Guess I was wrong. They really are that stupid. Maybe thats why he's only the #2 man.

There's nothing Obama can do about Gaza or anything else yet you idiot.

Well there you go. Negotiate with THAT and tell me why Israeli's should lay down their arms?

People have to get it past their narrow view and realize there can never be a peace if one side is just totally unreasonable. Here we have a man in the radical movement of al-Qaida basically in full support of HAMAS and blaming Obama for this. Obama has no power for two more weeks. He is irrelvent to this discussion but the demonizing of Obama had to start somewhere.

By the end of this year, he might almost be as hated as George W. Bush.....well maybe not THAT much.

[Hondo]

Are you denying Jew immigration to Palestine has turned into a huge problem for whole world?

Does that include the 800,000 jews that were kicked out of Arab countries, without compensation, and told to go to Israel upon it's creation?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Does that include the 800,000 jews that were kicked out of Arab countries, without compensation, and told to go to Israel upon it's creation?

Now Fiero..don't go bringing up THAT little tidbit....

Jew's were all over the Middle East living in harmony with their neighbours until the regimes realized they had a way to get them out and demonize them without actually trying too hard.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here is another take on things:

Gaza War Diary III: If Mexico shelled Texas, like Hamas shells Israel
By Bradley Burston


Analogy One: A fanatical religious party wins a string of elections in Mexico's northern states, then stages a civil war to drive out the federal government and take full control.

The party's charter demands the return to Mexico of the occupied territories of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Texas.

Firing homemade rockets and more advanced projectiles smuggled in from Iran and China, the party's gunners can hit a total of one of every seven Americans, or 43,598,000 people, in a broad swath which includes Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Austin, San Antonio and Houston, and Las Vegas.

In all of these areas, pre-schools, grade schools, and universities are all forced to shut down. Families sleep in bomb shelters, and return to them several times a day during air raids.

______________________


Analogy Two: A man comes into your home. He has a gun he made himself. He points it at your family. He fires, but misses. The gun has little accuracy. He fires repeatedly, missing again and again.

You have a much better gun, made in a real factory. It is in the drawer in the bedroom.

Demonstrators in London and San Francisco - who are distant relatives of the gunman - stage a protest, calling you a murderer and demanding that you keep the well-made gun in the drawer because it would be a disproportionate response.

The man with the homemade gun, it turns out, is a religious fanatic who lives across the street. You were once his landlord. There is much bad blood between you.

He races back across the street. He has a larger weapon that he smuggled in through his basement. He shoots from behind his younger son. He wounds your daughter. You take out a rifle. You aim for him and hit the son, killing the boy.

The demonstrators are now calling you a Nazi and chant "Slaughter the Landlord!"

[In his defense, the neighbor explains that you have kept him and his family locked in the house, and have at times, failed to pay his water, gas and electric bills, causing them to be sporadically turned off.

This is some years after the neighbor send out his older son, nicely dressed, to knock on your door. Your older daughter opens the door. He greet her politely, and presses the detonator on a homemade bomb.]

______________________


And finally a word about...

Analogy Three: Gaza as the Warsaw Ghetto

Jew-haters the world over adore this one. It solves a number of problems at once:

It denies and diminishes and exploits the Holocaust, does disrespect to Holocaust victims and survivors alike, alleviates European guilt over complicity with the Nazis, alleviates American guilt over inaction in the face of the annihilation machine, misrepresents both the cruel reality of the Gaza Strip and the cruel reality of the ghetto, dismisses the humanity and the vulnerability of the million Israeli Jews and Arabs within rocket range, and ignores completely the role of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in having sent thousands and thousands and thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel.

As a bonus, pro-Palestinian demonstrators in San Francisco [where else?], referencing the the Warsaw Ghetto analogy, recently beat up a small number of pro-Israel demonstrators, reportedly shouting "Slaughter the Jew" at them in Arabic.

Way to bring peace.

Just another take on things....

[steve_spackman]

Steve....that is lame. Anyone who is objective knows damned well from picking up the Bible knows that the Jewish faith started in the "holy land" and the roots of Christianity and Islam are from the area as well. It is why any deal to put one nation in there with a religious foot in only one of the three camps who started this is so contentious.

That said, Christian's don't really object to the Jewish state being superimposed over the holy land. It is the Muslims who object and while I can say they should have some more access to places like the dome of the rock, it has been available to them in ways I can tell you most Islamic nations wouldn't tolerate if the situation was reversed.

Israel is where it is now...for better or worse. After 60 years they are not going to go anywhere so rather than stand around with flapping your gums about the injustice of of all, why don't you suggest a peaceful solution to the issue? Israel wants peace. They have proved it in their dealings with Egypt and Jordan. They pulled out of the Golan Heights as a sign of good faith with Syria. What they wont do is lay prostrate as some Hamas thug fires rockets into Israeli towns....

the bible must be the most over rated book of all times..

[Easy Drifter]

I was watching the A channel news. A local Barrie station.
Apparently there is 12 hour truce. Hopes are it will continue.
Aid is being allowed in to Gaza.
Canada has pledged $4 million in aid to Gaza.

Steve: I said I was quoting Eki not you.

Canada lost another soldier today to another roadside bomb planted by Taliban terrorists.
I don't know how that could happen as the UN has banned the use of such weapons. Yeah right.

[Hondo]

Well Mark, I can't speak for all of them, but on analogy 1, as a former Texan, I feel it's safe to say that most of the residents would probably clamber up on their rooftops with deer rifles, coolers of beer, and platters of nachos and have a good ol' time. They probably wouldn't bother to call the Feds.

Now that I live in Louisiana, all you'd have to do would be to take a couple of bus loads of cajuns to the border, tell them Mexicans were out of season and good to eat, then turn them loose.

[Mark in Oshawa]

the bible must be the most over rated book of all times..

It may be but it isn't total fiction either. No more fiction or fact than the Torah or the Koran. That is why this conflict has other implications that have made it far more messy than it should be.

[TOgoFASTER]

the bible must be the most over rated book of all times..

Needs more Hagee and much more rapture... :)

The middle east, joined at the hip, troika of love just keeps on rolling along it's bloody path.
----------------
Loved the folksy analogies and good ole boy insight... it makes it all so much more clear. LOL

[Eki]

I am not sure where Israel should have been located if not where it is. Perhaps Finland?

I was thinking more like Germany. Aren't their Holocaust often used as an excuse for founding Israel? Palestinians and the Middle East had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The current situation is like you murder someone and your innocent neighbour will go to prison for it.

[Valve Bounce]

the bible must be the most over rated book of all times..

It was written under the influence of hallucinogenic toadstools.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was thinking more like Germany. Aren't their Holocaust often used as an excuse for founding Israel? Palestinians and the Middle East had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The current situation is like you murder someone and your innocent neighbour will go to prison for it.


It isn't like that at all......but I have gotten used to your lame excuses. Palestinians and the Middle East didn't have anything to do with the Holocaust but if you google up Hamas's charter, you can read and realize they have no problem with what the Nazi's were trying to pull off either.

The Jewish question of where they went was answered by the practical problem of the fact most of the displaced Jews went to Israel and were giving the British authorities there a royal headache. The fact Jews had been in the area in ancient times and for most of the years afterwards kind of made the answer obvious. Should the Palestinians been treated or worked into the deal better? That was their choice to fight to evict the Jews in 47/48 rather than continue to live beside them. IT was a 2 state solution that was advocated back then. The only people wanting one state were the Arab's...not the Jews.....

[Eki]

It isn't like that at all......but I have gotten used to your lame excuses. Palestinians and the Middle East didn't have anything to do with the Holocaust but if you google up Hamas's charter, you can read and realize they have no problem with what the Nazi's were trying to pull off either.

Even if they were, it was just an opinion. They didn't do anything. Don't you believe in freedom of opinion?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Even if they were, it was just an opinion. They didn't do anything. Don't you believe in freedom of opinion?

I believe in freedom of opinion. The problem is Hamas is ACTING on that opinion, ie. to wipe out every Israeli jew within rocket range. Read their charter Eki and then tell me why anyone sane would sit down and try to negotiate a settlement with them concerning them leaving Israel alone or at the very least taking them to court for their "injustices".

[TOgoFASTER]

Guess they were suppose to be happy having their homes taken away.
The UN negotiations for a two state solution fell apart. No UN negotiated partition or trusteeship, no UN vote or any seal of approval by the UN.
Israel went ahead and claimed statehood anyway. With the US endorsing that state eleven minutes later. http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photos/israel.jpg
Might read the timeline I posted earlier for some insight.

"A royal headache" is a new name for 'justifiable' terrorism?

Oh, but history has nothing at all to do with the current bloodshed... LOL

[Eki]

The problem is Hamas is ACTING on that opinion, ie. to wipe out every Israeli jew within rocket range.
The UN, the UK, the US, etc ACTED AGAINST the opinion of the Palestinians when they founded Israel there. What did they expected the Palestinians would do? Bend over?

[Daniel]

I believe in freedom of opinion. The problem is Hamas is ACTING on that opinion, ie. to wipe out every Israeli jew within rocket range. Read their charter Eki and then tell me why anyone sane would sit down and try to negotiate a settlement with them concerning them leaving Israel alone or at the very least taking them to court for their "injustices".

Seriously though dude. Sure Hamas talks big now but if Israel left them alone to do normal things normal countries do then I doubt they could be arsed launched rather ineffective rockets at Israel.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The UN, the UK, the US, etc ACTED AGAINST the opinion of the Palestinians when they founded Israel there. What did they expected the Palestinians would do? Bend over?

The Palestinians may have had some issue and I don't disagree it wasn't what THEY wanted but lets not mince words here. The last 60 years of violence they have been more than willing to toss civilized behaviour aside and have been egged on and supplied by their Arab cousins who want NOTHING to do with them emigrating to their countries either. The Palestinians at some point have to suck it up and realize getting along with the Israeli's beats fighting them. How long do you have to fight a war you cannot win and what cost to your kids future to decide it isn't working? Instead we have generations of Palestinians thinking suicide bombs made of their kids is a valid form of protest. At some point...you have to question their sanity.

Besides...I asked you to read the charter of Hamas and tell me why Israel should trust Hamas to do anything but launch more rockets?

[Roamy]

just a little interruption

Hey Spacman - you guys must have gotten is a big shipment of Maui Wowie!!

British Wind Turbine Possibly Hit by UFO
Thursday, January 08, 2009
E-MailPrint
Share:
A wind turbine in northeastern England stood wrecked Wednesday with one of its giant 65-foot blades torn off — after it was hit by a UFO.

Locals were woken by the 4 a.m. smash after strange lights were spotted streaking towards the 290-foot-tall generator on a wind farm.

Baffled power chiefs said of the smash in Conisholme, Lincolnshire: "We have a team investigating."

There was no trace of the missing blade.

A UFO expert said: "We are very excited."

A woman motorist told how she saw a UFO zoom towards the wind farm and strike the turbine.

Dorothy Willows — who lives half a mile from the scene of the hit-and-run — was in her car when "strange lights" loomed in the evening sky.

"The lights were moving across the sky towards the wind farm," she said. "Then I saw a low flying object. It was skimming across the sky towards the turbines."

[Mark in Oshawa]

Seriously though dude. Sure Hamas talks big now but if Israel left them alone to do normal things normal countries do then I doubt they could be arsed launched rather ineffective rockets at Israel.

For the most part they were left alone. The only justification for issue with the Israelis they have is the lack of economic trade with the state of Israel and the power issue. Both of these tho go back years to the point where the Palestinians were sending the kids across the border with explosives to commit suicide in downtown Tel Aviv. I don't think tho the US would back Israel, nor any other civilized nation would back them if the Palestinians laid down all arms and played the game of dragging the Israeli's into the court of public opinion without shooting and bombing. They have never tried this tack yet.

Again..read the Hamas charter and tell me why the Israeli's would negotiate with these characters and think they were dealing with people who wanted peace.

[Camelopard]

....... the British authorities there a royal headache. .


I'd call it Terrorism (with a capital T) wouldn't you? But of course not, after all it's ancient history and has no bearing on this discussion.............. You will admit that they were terrorists won't you?


However the zionists were justified in using TERRORISM to get their end result.

[Camelopard]

Hell Assad wiped out a whole town of 20000 when it got uppity in the 80's and no one talks about the Syria human rights abuses on this board.


OK shower man how about some more details please, which Assad, what town, how many killed, or is this just another one of your rash generalisations? (Just like your crap about Pol Pot). How about spending the time to do some research and post a few links?

"Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel."

Sounds a bit like the warning given to the British by the zionists before the King David Hotel was bombed, doesn't it? And the warnings given by the israelis before the bombed lebanon.

"even the most conservative (but not radical) elements within Syria did not rise to the aid of the Brotherhood, nor strongly expressed sympathy, largely because of the Brotherhood's violent means and actions, compared to Al-Assad's initial patience in dealing with them, until the attempt on his life and Hama's uprising. Thomas Friedman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Friedman) points out that never again have Muslim extremists threatened the Syrian government."

Muslim Brotherhood, no relation to the terrorist group I suppose? Are the Muslim Brotherhood OK to use terrorist acts in your opinion?

[Eki]

Besides...I asked you to read the charter of Hamas and tell me why Israel should trust Hamas to do anything but launch more rockets?
Heck, I don't even understand why Israel is there. If they weren't, they wouldn't have to worry about the Hamas rockets or charter.

[Rani]

OK shower man how about some more details please, which Assad, what town, how many killed, or is this just another one of your rash generalisations? (Just like your crap about Pol Pot). How about spending the time to do some research and post a few links?

"Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel."

Sounds a bit like the warning given to the British by the zionists before the King David Hotel was bombed, doesn't it?
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/63P58.htm
I don't buy it, it's all lies.
Not in a thriving, open democracy such as Syria.

[Camelopard]

http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/63P58.htm
I don't buy it, it's all lies.
Not in a thriving, open democracy such as Syria.

What's all lies, your support for zionist terrorists?

[Mark in Oshawa]

OK shower man how about some more details please, which Assad, what town, how many killed, or is this just another one of your rash generalisations? (Just like your crap about Pol Pot). How about spending the time to do some research and post a few links?

"Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel."

Sounds a bit like the warning given to the British by the zionists before the King David Hotel was bombed, doesn't it? And the warnings given by the israelis before the bombed lebanon.

"even the most conservative (but not radical) elements within Syria did not rise to the aid of the Brotherhood, nor strongly expressed sympathy, largely because of the Brotherhood's violent means and actions, compared to Al-Assad's initial patience in dealing with them, until the attempt on his life and Hama's uprising. Thomas Friedman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Friedman) points out that never again have Muslim extremists threatened the Syrian government."

Muslim Brotherhood, no relation to the terrorist group I suppose? Are the Muslim Brotherhood OK to use terrorist acts in your opinion?

The Muslim Brotherhood are scum...but to wipe a whole town to get ride of them is a tad much. That said...Israel hasn't wiped out Gaza to get rid similar scum and you guys are screaming....

As for the proof....Rani put it up...

[Rani]

Heck, I don't even understand why Israel is there. If they weren't, they wouldn't have to worry about the Hamas rockets or charter.
I see it the other way around. Funny isn't it?

[Rani]

What's all lies, your support for zionist terrorists?
I don't support terrorism against civilians, be it fundemental muslim, white supremist or zionist. You on the other hand support one yet denounce the other.

[Camelopard]

The Muslim Brotherhood are scum...but to wipe a whole town to get ride of them is a tad much. That said...Israel hasn't wiped out Gaza to get rid similar scum and you guys are screaming....

As for the proof....Rani put it up...

Yep I put that post up to encourage you to do some research before making your rash generalisations, forgotten your crap about Pol Pot have you.

Of course I know it happened, I've also been to Hama, have you? The locals as I discovered don't want to talk about it, not surprisingly.

Is Syria a police state? yes of course it is, is it changing under their new President, sure is, is the current President the one responsible for the massacre at Hama, certainly isn't?

How different was this action to the action taken by Ghandi in flattening the Sikhs in Amritsar?

I'm pointing out your double standards, your support for some terrorists is OK if they support your point of view, ie, the CIA's support for anti Castro terrorists and the zionist terrorists like menachen begin.

[Camelopard]

I don't support terrorism against civilians, be it fundemental muslim, white supremist or zionist. You on the other hand support one yet denounce the other.

Show me where I said I support any form of terrorism? I'm a realist, I know that there will be terrorism and I state it here and now that I don't support it, doesn't mean that I can't support innocent Palestinian civilians in their struggle against an apartheid state.

My argument is against people like you that support terrorist causes when it suits you ie menachem begin and the stren group and so on....... Were they terrorist groups? you have still yet to answer that question.

[Camelopard]

The Muslim Brotherhood are scum...but to wipe a whole town to get ride of them is a tad much. .


Hypocrite :)

[schmenke]

... The only people wanting one state were the Arab's...not the Jews.....

Not true, the Zionist assembly had openly stated that they would settle for nothing less than a completely Jewish Palestine.

[Easy Drifter]

As Eki has already stated in his previous posts he does not believe Israel has the right to exist I do not think his current posts should be paid attention to. He has taken the Hamas position, as set out in their charter that Israel is to be destroyed and all Jews killed. I will admit he has not stated the part about all Jews killed but that is in the Hamas charter.
He has stated he believes Israel has no right to exist. How do you debate with that.
There is plenty of wrong on both sides but when one side refuses to accept that a nation has a right to exist and all of its people should be killed I find it hard to have much sympathy for them.
Many are going back into ancient history and many others to the end of WW2 to justify the Hamas position. That was over 50 years ago. Are the UK and USA and other allied nations still going after Germany, Italy and Japan? Are those countries mounting terrorist attacks on France or the UK?
If true peace comes to the area I strongly suspect that Israel will gradually reduce and in time eliminate the restrictions on the arabic people.
It will take true peace and time.
Every attack and suicide bomber will hurt and delay that possibility.

I will always remember being in a Casino watching the really high roller players. The vast majority were Arabic and Jewish standing side by side joking and laughing together.

[schmenke]

...
It will take true peace and time.
....

It starts with tolerance.

[chuck34]

a people claiming decent from the ancient Israelites, of the old testament or who practise judaism. This was during the exile from the land of Israel (597-538bc) folowing the babylonian conquest, where the religion developed from a sacrificial temple cult into a elaborate code for daily living, which actually became the basis for communal identity.

Steve, man what the heck is with you? You are telling every one here that we should all "respect" Hamas and you keep spouting this garbage? This is getting really tiresome.

Explain this to me. If the Israelis have no claim to their Holy Land, then what claim do the Islamics have to that same land? That is what this all really boils down to right, two religious groups claiming the same land?

I am arguing that they both have legitimate claims to said land and they really do need to STFU, both sides, sit down and figure out how to live in peace together. But that is really hard to do when rockets are being fired at you. Both sides have done this in the past. The most recent ones to do it are Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself, just as Hamas does. But Hamas were the ones to break the most recent cease-fire. That fact can not be ignored!

Steve, I am assuming that you keep bringing up the garbage about the Jewish religion (what is this like the 3rd time?) because you don't like religion. Ok, fine I respect that. But you must also respect people who do believe deeply in a religion. That is their right just as much as it is your right not to believe. And again if you don't think that religion is a good basis for a land claim, just what is?

Oh yeah I'm still waiting for my answer about what you would do is Wales were to start firing rockets at London. Please stop dancing, and answer.

[chuck34]

It starts with tolerance.

Only tolerance for the Islamics right? That seems to be the view of a lot around here. We must have tolerance for Islamics, but d@mn the Jews.

[schmenke]

Did I say that? :mark:

Tolerance is a two-way street.

[donKey jote]

Good job rockets or tanks/F16's aren't allowed on this thread :p :

[chuck34]

Did I say that? :mark:

Tolerance is a two-way street.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But I'm pretty sure that that is how some on this board feel.

[Camelopard]

Looks like hamas has been hiding behind UN fork-lifts now. Must be, I can't think of any other reason why the israelis would openly target a very well marked UH vehicle, (unless of course they are UN Peace Keepers on the Lebanon border). Bet the tank commander gets a medal rather than a court marshal!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819188.stm


"Earlier, a UN agency halted aid operations in Gaza citing danger to its workers from Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN's relief agency Unrwa said. It came after one person was killed and two hurt when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.

Responding to the suspension, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel fully supported the work of the UN and other humanitarian agencies in Gaza.
The UN's relief agency Unwra said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision temporarily to halt aid deliveries.

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army," said Unrwa spokesman Chris Gunness.

The International Committee of the Red Cross also accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza."

[steve_spackman]

Steve, man what the heck is with you? You are telling every one here that we should all "respect" Hamas and you keep spouting this garbage? This is getting really tiresome.

Explain this to me. If the Israelis have no claim to their Holy Land, then what claim do the Islamics have to that same land? That is what this all really boils down to right, two religious groups claiming the same land?

I am arguing that they both have legitimate claims to said land and they really do need to STFU, both sides, sit down and figure out how to live in peace together. But that is really hard to do when rockets are being fired at you. Both sides have done this in the past. The most recent ones to do it are Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself, just as Hamas does. But Hamas were the ones to break the most recent cease-fire. That fact can not be ignored!

Steve, I am assuming that you keep bringing up the garbage about the Jewish religion (what is this like the 3rd time?) because you don't like religion. Ok, fine I respect that. But you must also respect people who do believe deeply in a religion. That is their right just as much as it is your right not to believe. And again if you don't think that religion is a good basis for a land claim, just what is?

Oh yeah I'm still waiting for my answer about what you would do is Wales were to start firing rockets at London. Please stop dancing, and answer.

if the welsh started firing rockets at London...im not too sure..

what would you do?

[Eki]

Explain this to me. If the Israelis have no claim to their Holy Land, then what claim do the Islamics have to that same land?

Uhhh...they have lived there continuously? They didn't go away to Europe, America, etc. for hundreds or thousands of years and then come back and say "Hey, you've taken my seat while I was away!! Wanna fight for it?!"

[Easy Drifter]

Many Israelis never left the area.

[ioan]

It starts with tolerance.

I'd like to see how tolerant you would be if your neighbor threw a few grenades towards your house every day and the police wouldn't care!

[janvanvurpa]

Uhhh...they have lived there continuously? They didn't go away to Europe, America, etc. for hundreds or thousands of years and then come back and say "Hey, you've taken my seat while I was away!! Wanna fight for it?!"
No, Eki, there were large numbers there all along, except for the brief period that the Christains held Jerusalem (they killed everybody non-Christain, men, women and children, Jew and Moslem alike)
From when Saladin re-took the area, Jews and others were allowed to return, and as we know about the Ottoman Turks, once they conquored your country, as long as you paid your tax, they would leave you alone----and as a Turkish rally boy I was talking with about his project said "And that was the downfall of the Ottoman empire---they were corrupt and had 50 languages and 20 religions in the Empire and no real reason to be together.
Here's from wiki:
From 1250-1517, Jerusalem was ruled by the Mamluks, during this period of time many clashes occurred between the Mamluks on one side and the crusaders and the Mongols on the other side. The area also suffered from many earthquakes and black plague.

Ottoman rule

In 1517, Jerusalem and environs fell to the Ottoman Turks, who generally remained in control until 1917.[59] Jerusalem enjoyed a period of renewal and peace under Suleiman the Magnificent - including the rebuilding of magnificent walls around the Old City. Throughout much of Ottoman rule, Jerusalem remained a provincial, if religiously important center, and did not straddle the main trade route between Damascus and Cairo.[61] However, the Muslim Turks brought many innovations: modern postal systems run by the various consulates; the use of the wheel for modes of transportation; stagecoach and carriage, the wheelbarrow and the cart; and the oil-lantern, among the first signs of modernization in the city.[62] In the mid 19th century, the Ottomans constructed the first paved road from Jaffa to Jerusalem, and by 1892 the railroad had reached the city.[62]

With the annexation of Jerusalem by Muhammad Ali of Egypt in 1831, foreign missions and consulates began to establish a foothold in the city. In 1836, Ibrahim Pasha allowed Jerusalem's Jewish residents to restore four major synagogues, among them the Hurva.[63]

Turkish rule was reinstated in 1840, but many Egyptian Muslims remained in Jerusalem. Jews from Algiers and North Africa began to settle in the city in growing numbers.[63] In the 1840s and 1850s, the international powers began a tug-of-war in Palestine as they sought to extend their protection over the country's religious minorities, a struggle carried out mainly through consular representatives in Jerusalem.[64] According to the Prussian consul, the population in 1845 was 16,410, with 7,120 Jews, 5,000 Muslims, 3,390 Christians, 800 Turkish soldiers and 100 Europeans.[63] The volume of Christian pilgrims increased under the Ottomans, doubling the city's population around Easter time.[65]"

Eki, notice that already then they were in a majority.

More immigration occurred in the second half of the 19th century as the Russians allowed Ukranians and Poles and Russians to periodically go nuts and terrorize and murder Jews. When the whole business of "Russification" got going which I'm sure you recall what everybodys response in Finland was, Jewish Agrarian Socialists pooled money and began sending comrades to the area to begin buying land. Simple outright purchases from whoever held the land be it Turk or local.
A lot of the land they bought cheaply because it was looked at locally as waste land. You must have read "Här under polstjärnan" (Täällä Pohjantähden alla), How did Jusse get the land at Koskela?He got it because it was considered waste because it was swampy.
Well that's where these Russian Socialists got their "waste' land too and they worked like commited Socialists in Paradise and drained swaps, palnted hi value crops and bought more land, and brought more Russian Jews down.

You see the numbers Eki?
There weren't lots of anybody there.
But aside from very short periods following some slaughter or another, there's always been a reasonable number of Jews there.

You oversimplify and you know it, stygging!

[Eki]

No, Eki, there were large numbers there all along, except for the brief period that the Christains held Jerusalem (they killed everybody non-Christain, men, women and children, Jew and Moslem alike)
From when Saladin re-took the area, Jews and others were allowed to return, and as we know about the Ottoman Turks, once they conquored your country, as long as you paid your tax, they would leave you alone----and as a Turkish rally boy I was talking with about his project said "And that was the downfall of the Ottoman empire---they were corrupt and had 50 languages and 20 religions in the Empire and no real reason to be together.
Here's from wiki:
From 1250-1517, Jerusalem was ruled by the Mamluks, during this period of time many clashes occurred between the Mamluks on one side and the crusaders and the Mongols on the other side. The area also suffered from many earthquakes and black plague.

Ottoman rule

In 1517, Jerusalem and environs fell to the Ottoman Turks, who generally remained in control until 1917.[59] Jerusalem enjoyed a period of renewal and peace under Suleiman the Magnificent - including the rebuilding of magnificent walls around the Old City. Throughout much of Ottoman rule, Jerusalem remained a provincial, if religiously important center, and did not straddle the main trade route between Damascus and Cairo.[61] However, the Muslim Turks brought many innovations: modern postal systems run by the various consulates; the use of the wheel for modes of transportation; stagecoach and carriage, the wheelbarrow and the cart; and the oil-lantern, among the first signs of modernization in the city.[62] In the mid 19th century, the Ottomans constructed the first paved road from Jaffa to Jerusalem, and by 1892 the railroad had reached the city.[62]

With the annexation of Jerusalem by Muhammad Ali of Egypt in 1831, foreign missions and consulates began to establish a foothold in the city. In 1836, Ibrahim Pasha allowed Jerusalem's Jewish residents to restore four major synagogues, among them the Hurva.[63]

Turkish rule was reinstated in 1840, but many Egyptian Muslims remained in Jerusalem. Jews from Algiers and North Africa began to settle in the city in growing numbers.[63] In the 1840s and 1850s, the international powers began a tug-of-war in Palestine as they sought to extend their protection over the country's religious minorities, a struggle carried out mainly through consular representatives in Jerusalem.[64] According to the Prussian consul, the population in 1845 was 16,410, with 7,120 Jews, 5,000 Muslims, 3,390 Christians, 800 Turkish soldiers and 100 Europeans.[63] The volume of Christian pilgrims increased under the Ottomans, doubling the city's population around Easter time.[65]"

Eki, notice that already then they were in a majority.

More immigration occurred in the second half of the 19th century as the Russians allowed Ukranians and Poles and Russians to periodically go nuts and terrorize and murder Jews. When the whole business of "Russification" got going which I'm sure you recall what everybodys response in Finland was, Jewish Agrarian Socialists pooled money and began sending comrades to the area to begin buying land. Simple outright purchases from whoever held the land be it Turk or local.
A lot of the land they bought cheaply because it was looked at locally as waste land. You must have read "Här under polstjärnan" (Täällä Pohjantähden alla), How did Jusse get the land at Koskela?He got it because it was considered waste because it was swampy.
Well that's where these Russian Socialists got their "waste' land too and they worked like commited Socialists in Paradise and drained swaps, palnted hi value crops and bought more land, and brought more Russian Jews down.

You see the numbers Eki?
There weren't lots of anybody there.
But aside from very short periods following some slaughter or another, there's always been a reasonable number of Jews there.

You oversimplify and you know it, stygging!
I wasn't talking about the Ottoman times, I was talking about people who are alive now. It's them that count. 22% of the Israeli Jews are foreign born. If you count those whose parents and grandparents are/were foreign born, it makes over half of the Jews. Without them there would be much more space for those Palestinians whose families have lived there for generations.

[Camelopard]

No, Eki, there were large numbers there all along, except for the brief period that the Christains held Jerusalem (they killed everybody non-Christain, men, women and children, Jew and Moslem alike)

blah.......... blah.............. blah.................. blah.......................

You oversimplify and you know it, stygging!



This is all ancient history and of no relevance to the current debate, we might as well be talking about the trojan horse days...........

[Daniel]

Ok so there's a UN resolution calling for an IMMEDIATE ceasefire so Israel ignores it.

The most telling thing is that rather than vetoing it as they could, the US abstained so as not to offend all of their Jewish buddies as much as they would if they'd voted for it. When the US isn't firmly behind Israel that says a lot

[chuck34]

This is all ancient history and of no relevance to the current debate, we might as well be talking about the trojan horse days...........

Ok history has no bearing in this. Then tell me who has controlled the Gaza Strip for the last 60 years? Do they have no claim then either????

[chuck34]

if the welsh started firing rockets at London...im not too sure..

what would you do?

The question wasn't posed to me, it is a question for you that you are REFUSING to answer.

But since you asked. If I'm a citizen of London and the Welsh were lobbing rockets at me, I'm gonna go get the buggers, and either throw them in jail, or 6 feet under.

[Daniel]

The question wasn't posed to me, it is a question for you that you are REFUSING to answer.

But since you asked. If I'm a citizen of London and the Welsh were lobbing rockets at me, I'm gonna go get the buggers, and either throw them in jail, or 6 feet under.
So rather than talk to them and say "what's your problem, what do you want and what can we do to make sure this never happens again" you'd prefer to kill them, continue having rockets shot at yourselves and radicalise the Welsh. Good job :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

So rather than talk to them and say "what's your problem, what do you want and what can we do to make sure this never happens again" you'd prefer to kill them, continue having rockets shot at yourselves and radicalise the Welsh. Good job :rolleyes:

Exactly. What is happening now is entirely counter-productive. This can be said for both sides.

[chuck34]

So rather than talk to them and say "what's your problem, what do you want and what can we do to make sure this never happens again" you'd prefer to kill them, continue having rockets shot at yourselves and radicalise the Welsh. Good job :rolleyes:

So you're assuming that I haven't talked to them already. I was assuming that. I am also assuming that firing rockets wouldn't be the first thing they would do. But if firing rockets at me is the FIRST thing that they have done to me. Then, hell yeah, go get 'em.

Once again, you're showing your bias here. The assumption is that the Israelis have not done any talking or anything. That ignores the fact that Hamas even has any "legitimate" claim to some sort of "limited soverenty" in Gaza. That fact proves that the Israelis have talked, have given concessions, and have signed some sort of deal that must have been exceptable to both sides at one point in time.

[Daniel]

So you're assuming that I haven't talked to them already. I was assuming that. I am also assuming that firing rockets wouldn't be the first thing they would do. But if firing rockets at me is the FIRST thing that they have done to me. Then, hell yeah, go get 'em.

Once again, you're showing your bias here. The assumption is that the Israelis have not done any talking or anything. That ignores the fact that Hamas even has any "legitimate" claim to some sort of "limited soverenty" in Gaza. That fact proves that the Israelis have talked, have given concessions, and have signed some sort of deal that must have been exceptable to both sides at one point in time.
That's all BS. You blockaded them in there and now they're fighting back. You reap what you sow.

[Daniel]

Exactly. What is happening now is entirely counter-productive. This can be said for both sides.
It really is incredibly simple really. What gets me is that people seem to think this is tit for tat. If this were two countries simply exchanging blows over a border I'd agree. But Gaza is blockaded so this changes everything. I'm very happy with where I live but if the English came and blockaded me in here I'd be the first to do something about it when times became desperate. But the English aren't a bunch of feckless retards so they're not going to do that and henceforth I quite like English people as long as they don't read The Scum, Daily Hate or other such newspapers which give them a heightened sense of unreality :) In fact I love everyone who doesn't cause others problems in daily life :)

[steve_spackman]

It really is incredibly simple really. What gets me is that people seem to think this is tit for tat. If this were two countries simply exchanging blows over a border I'd agree. But Gaza is blockaded so this changes everything. I'm very happy with where I live but if the English came and blockaded me in here I'd be the first to do something about it when times became desperate. But the English aren't a bunch of feckless retards so they're not going to do that and henceforth I quite like English people as long as they don't read The Scum, Daily Hate or other such newspapers which give them a heightened sense of unreality :) In fact I love everyone who doesn't cause others problems in daily life :)

whats 'the scum and daily hate"?

[steve_spackman]

The question wasn't posed to me, it is a question for you that you are REFUSING to answer.

But since you asked. If I'm a citizen of London and the Welsh were lobbing rockets at me, I'm gonna go get the buggers, and either throw them in jail, or 6 feet under.

id take all their sheep away..then they would have to find soemthing else to shag HA HA

[steve_spackman]

Ok so there's a UN resolution calling for an IMMEDIATE ceasefire so Israel ignores it.

The most telling thing is that rather than vetoing it as they could, the US abstained so as not to offend all of their Jewish buddies as much as they would if they'd voted for it. When the US isn't firmly behind Israel that says a lot

this is what Jimmy Carter wrote in the washington post with regards to this current situation.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645.html

I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.
After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.
Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.
We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.
Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.
After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.
Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).
We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.
On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.
After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.
The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

[schmenke]

I'd like to see how tolerant you would be if your neighbor threw a few grenades towards your house every day and the police wouldn't care!

Good Lord, I've never seen a post so completely misinterpreted... :mark:

[chuck34]

That's all BS. You blockaded them in there and now they're fighting back. You reap what you sow.

Why were they blockaded? You reap what you sow.

If the Pali's living in Gaza are starving, and they probably are, why isn't their "government" trying to smuggle in some FOOD instead of some d@mn rockets.

[chuck34]

id take all their sheep away..then they would have to find soemthing else to shag HA HA

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge.

Simple question you refuse to answer.

I believe I'm done with you now.

[steve_spackman]

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge.

Simple question you refuse to answer.

I believe I'm done with you now.

dont we have a sense of humour then??? shame.

Im sure you would think that if that was to happen, which it NEVER will i would want to know why they are doing it...not go bomb the e out of em and then ask questions, which seems to be the US governments choice of doing things

[Eki]

Why were they blockaded? You reap what you sow.

If the Pali's living in Gaza are starving, and they probably are, why isn't their "government" trying to smuggle in some FOOD instead of some d@mn rockets.
Sure. Like you are, why isn't your "government" trying to fix the economy of your country instead of blowing up your tax money in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Daniel]

Why were they blockaded? You reap what you sow.

If the Pali's living in Gaza are starving, and they probably are, why isn't their "government" trying to smuggle in some FOOD instead of some d@mn rockets.
Listen I'm not saying Hamas is blameless in this. I'm merely trying to show you why they're doing what they're doing/

[schmenke]

I'm confused Daniel; what is this blockade that you're referring to?

[Daniel]

I'm confused Daniel; what is this blockade that you're referring to?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=gaza+blockade&meta=

[steve_spackman]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=gaza+blockade&meta=

its interesting to see that ALOT of people only see what they are allowed to see on the news.
If everyone knew what was happening all across the spectrum, then im very sure that these people who believe that Israel is the victim would be churping a brand new song!!!!

[steve_spackman]

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090109

So Israel wants peace....i dont think so

This IS another holocaust, complete with concentration camps, starvation, intimidation, and ethnic cleansing. And the United States has the power to end it by simply cutting off the funds being used to perpetrate the criminality, and dedicate them to the rebuilding of the Palestinian Homeland. Let's not be taken in by the current PR effort to make us feel sorry for the poor, beleaguered Israelis. Let's demand that Israel and its big brother moneybagger, the US, stop the genocidal war and do what is right. Give up the stolen Golan Heights. Live within your boundaries instead of constantly stealing more land and alienating those from whom you steal it, under the guise of self-defense

[Easy Drifter]

Yes Israel rejected the ceasefire. However so did Hamas, a point convientely overlooked by several posters.
Hamas needs a ceasefire more than Israel does.
All I hear is that Israel closed the border to Gaza so supplies cannot get in.
Well rockets are getting in so other supplies could.
Eygpt has also closed her border to Gaza. Why?
All required supplies could have come in through Eygpt if that border was open.
Why isn't (or didn't) Hamas targeting Eygpt with rocket fire?
There is a lot of fault on both sides but Hamas are the ones in their Charter calling for the total destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews.
Why should Israel even consider supplying a group whose charter calls for Israel's destruction? That Israel was allowing supplies in, although restricted, was better than what Eygpt was doing.

[schmenke]

That's all BS. You blockaded them in there and now they're fighting back. You reap what you sow.

I'm confused here Daniel... The Israelis imposed the Gaza blockade in retaliation to the attacks by Hamas, not the other way around :mark:

[steve_spackman]

http://www.aipac.org/

this is the problem....

[Roamy]

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090109

So Israel wants peace....i dont think so

This IS another holocaust, complete with concentration camps, starvation, intimidation, and ethnic cleansing. And the United States has the power to end it by simply cutting off the funds being used to perpetrate the criminality, and dedicate them to the rebuilding of the Palestinian Homeland. Let's not be taken in by the current PR effort to make us feel sorry for the poor, beleaguered Israelis. Let's demand that Israel and its big brother moneybagger, the US, stop the genocidal war and do what is right. Give up the stolen Golan Heights. Live within your boundaries instead of constantly stealing more land and alienating those from whom you steal it, under the guise of self-defense


Move the Pals out of there - there are under 2 million of them and Mayflower has a lot of time on their hands. This has went on too long and moving these people would be the easier way out. put them over at the west bank and let them spill into jordan.

[steve_spackman]

Move the Pals out of there - there are under 2 million of them and Mayflower has a lot of time on their hands. This has went on too long and moving these people would be the easier way out. put them over at the west bank and let them spill into jordan.

why not have the state of Israel move to the US, seen as AIPAC is based in the US...This is the reason why the US is hated worldwide. Because of a bunch of Israelis who seem to have a knack of brainwashing a big percentage of the US population

the US and Israel are commiting war crimes against innocent women and children....


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_gaza_rights

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve...I am going to go back to calling you Spackman again.......

You are just delusional and out to lunch on this one......

It seems to me that your agenda is to provoke a reaction rather than have any logic or sense about this at all.

The world isn't moving Israel and it isn't going to move the Palestinians. The sooner THEY get that straight the sooner they might have to get along.

The problem is prats like yourself who give hope the radicals in places like Gaza that the west will abandon Israel. What you and they are failing to realize people smarter than us have looked VERY objectively at the problem and realize that there is no solution but for both sides to stop shooting at each other. The problem is Hamas doesn't seem to grasp this.

Now we can argue all we want about whether Israel should be there. I say yes...you say no, but it wont alter the fact it isn't leaving. You cannot say without a doubt that one side nor the other don't have some valid claim to the area. The only difference is, us pro Israel supporters realize this and want peace for the region. Most of the pro-Palestinian supports on this thread have made claims that quite frankly are unsubstantiated and ill-logical to the reality we have today.

Whatever the past was, it isn't changing the fact both sides are there and better learn to live side by side. I have seen a lot more evidence of Israel's record of getting along in the Egyptian and Jordanian examples than Hamas or Hezbollah or any other faction loose in the region sponsoring terrorist acts against people on the streets of Israel.

As for Israeli's attacks on Gaza? They started after a few weeks of rockets coming over the border. The fact that Hamas would start a war with an enemy right out of the front yards of schools and residential areas shows you how little concern they have for the people they are supposed to be fighting for.

[steve_spackman]

Steve...I am going to go back to calling you Spackman again.......

You are just delusional and out to lunch on this one......

It seems to me that your agenda is to provoke a reaction rather than have any logic or sense about this at all.

The world isn't moving Israel and it isn't going to move the Palestinians. The sooner THEY get that straight the sooner they might have to get along.

The problem is prats like yourself who give hope the radicals in places like Gaza that the west will abandon Israel.

first off whats with calling me a prat? (someone whos a major idiot, or is delusional and dumb. Acts against logic and thinks hes self-righteous) im far from that

not at all am i trying to 'provoke' anything.as i dont have the same views as you thats provoking i would guess.

second i have no hope for the 'radicals,

[janvanvurpa]

I wasn't talking about the Ottoman times, I was talking about people who are alive now. It's them that count. 22% of the Israeli Jews are foreign born. If you count those whose parents and grandparents are/were foreign born, it makes over half of the Jews. Without them there would be much more space for those Palestinians whose families have lived there for generations.

Well a lot of so called Palestinians didn't live there for generations Eki, look at the population figures I found for Jerusalem in the 1800s. Very small population in general because the land is so DRY and nobody did anything about it so the land would support very many people.

By that reasoning all the millions of kids born in Jordan or Egypt or Libanon or Syria shouldn't be in "Palestine" ---- or the "West Bank" and Gaza either, they were born elsewhere.

There's little point in persuing this line of thinking cause it'll go mowhere.

In a bad way you are partially right though. When I was there in 1980 walking the length and breadth of the Israel and talking to everybody i could there was already an open worry that the big influx of North Americans mostly from the NE of USA the bulk of whom were very hard line religious maniacs--very similar to the right-wing Christian fundamentalists--- had reached a point that one could not ignore them in Parliament, and the other mainly secular Socialist parties had to make concession to these American nut cases to get their cooperation and votes too make a workable majority. They didn't have a 5% minimum to get seats in Knesset like the Swedes do to get a seat in Riksdag, so several of their lunatic parties had political power hugely out of proportion of their numbers in the population.

It was open then and last time I talked to an Israeli ( a cutie getting work done on her pickup in the next shop from mine) she said it had only gotten worse since then with these Americans infiltrating everything down to school boards and even Libraries pushing their essentially made up version of Old Testament Mosaic law when the bulk of the country is essentially non-religious just like Finland or France.

I always point out to my friend here when there's some tragedy or some disturbance in the "settlements" I say "Ever notice that those they interview have less accent in the English than I do?" Never had anybody that laid particular notice to the great obviously native American speakers, so then we talk about the role of the American Jewish Fundis.

[chuck34]

dont we have a sense of humour then??? shame.

Im sure you would think that if that was to happen, which it NEVER will i would want to know why they are doing it...not go bomb the e out of em and then ask questions, which seems to be the US governments choice of doing things

Of course I have a sence of humor. You are just trying my patience at this point.

What is there to know about why the Welsh are bombing you? You took over their country, don't you remember that?

[chuck34]

why not have the state of Israel move to the US, seen as AIPAC is based in the US...This is the reason why the US is hated worldwide. Because of a bunch of Israelis who seem to have a knack of brainwashing a big percentage of the US population

the US and Israel are commiting war crimes against innocent women and children....


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_gaza_rights

And Hamas has not commited any war crimes????? Give me a break.

[steve_spackman]

Of course I have a sence of humor. You are just trying my patience at this point.

What is there to know about why the Welsh are bombing you? You took over their country, don't you remember that?

just like the US took over Iraq you mean..

[chuck34]

Another question that no one has answered for me is;

What right does Hamas/Palistenians have to the land, and why is that more valid than the Israeli's right???

[chuck34]

just like the US took over Iraq you mean..

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge.

I think I'm gonna start refering to you as Dodger.

Are you still going to refuse to answer my question?? It really is a pretty simple one.

Plus the US did not take over Iraq. Or has your "trusted media" not told you that thier democratically elected government has just signed a deal that said the US has to be out by a certain time?

[steve_spackman]

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge.

I think I'm gonna start refering to you as Dodger.

Are you still going to refuse to answer my question?? It really is a pretty simple one.

i couldnt give a monkeys if the welsh wanted to lob rockets at london...

[chuck34]

If you're English you would Dodger. Where do you live then? I was thinking that since you had an English flag, instead of UK, that you would be somewhere close to London. Please forgive me for that.

[steve_spackman]

If you're English you would Dodger. Where do you live then? I was thinking that since you had an English flag, instead of UK, that you would be somewhere close to London. Please forgive me for that.

people who have the english flag just dont live near london...the english flag (st georges cross) is the flag of england.....

[steve_spackman]

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge.

I think I'm gonna start refering to you as Dodger.

Are you still going to refuse to answer my question?? It really is a pretty simple one.

Plus the US did not take over Iraq. Or has your "trusted media" not told you that thier democratically elected government has just signed a deal that said the US has to be out by a certain time?

out by a certain time yet build the biggest US embassy ever built..with a staff of around 4000 people....i dont think they ARE leaving anytime soon

what 'trusted media' do you get your news from??

[chuck34]

people who have the english flag just dont live near london...the english flag (st georges cross) is the flag of england.....

Ok Dodger, I'm done. I know all I need to know about you.

You're an anti-Semite even though you'll never admit to it. You think Israel has no right to have a nation in their Holy Land, but the Palistenians do. Any time someone tries to give you a logical argument as to why the Israelis are doing what they are doing, you dodge the question and start talking about sheep. If you are feeling trapped you start talking about how people need to respect your opinion. You talk about all the "War Crimes" the Israelis have commited, but ignore the one's commited by Hamas. Your mind can't be changed and I'm tired of trying

[steve_spackman]

Ok Dodger, I'm done. I know all I need to know about you.

You're an anti-Semite even though you'll never admit to it. You think Israel has no right to have a nation in their Holy Land, but the Palistenians do. Any time someone tries to give you a logical argument as to why the Israelis are doing what they are doing, you dodge the question and start talking about sheep. If you are feeling trapped you start talking about how people need to respect your opinion. You talk about all the "War Crimes" the Israelis have commited, but ignore the one's commited by Hamas. Your mind can't be changed and I'm tired of trying

you know NOTHING about me...

i deplore the actions by both sides..i did not say Israel has no right to exist and that Hamas is right in what they are doing..praps you need to read things a bit closer, before you start making accusations to people

[Hondo]

That's all BS. You blockaded them in there and now they're fighting back. You reap what you sow.

They aren't completely blockaded. They share a border with Egypt also.

[Mark in Oshawa]

its interesting to see that ALOT of people only see what they are allowed to see on the news.
If everyone knew what was happening all across the spectrum, then im very sure that these people who believe that Israel is the victim would be churping a brand new song!!!!


And you are the man who knows it all I am sure? Please...spare me this...

It is pretty simple. You objectively look at who has a track record on doing what they say and you find who you can believe. For the most part, Israel has always been willing to sit down to find a non-violent way out of an issue. Hamas has in their charter their stated goal of ridding the Middle East of Jews. There is no need to spout off a lot of stuff such as the news is biased. If you don't like the news, you cant always point and say it is biased. Sometimes it is what it is....

[steve_spackman]

And you are the man who knows it all I am sure? Please...spare me this...

It is pretty simple. You objectively look at who has a track record on doing what they say and you find who you can believe. For the most part, Israel has always been willing to sit down to find a non-violent way out of an issue. Hamas has in their charter their stated goal of ridding the Middle East of Jews. There is no need to spout off a lot of stuff such as the news is biased. If you don't like the news, you cant always point and say it is biased. Sometimes it is what it is....

i never said i know it all...

you couldnt be further from the truth. JUST because i dont see the world from your eyes i am 100% wrong and my views are worthless...

i dont care about the stupid murdering jewish and Palestinian thugs..its the innocent people caught up in the mess and the origins of the conflict

think what you want..i dont really give a flying fook

this debate has turned into a 'lets gang up on all the people who dont agree with us and whos views we dont like'.. and its got kinda boring now.

have a great weekend guys and be safe

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve..you are just as hostile to my views as I am of yours. Furthermore, you are the one stating we don't know the truth because the Media is lying to us and you have numerous posts demeaning and defaming Israel with little more justification than that is what you defending. Your attacks on Hamas have not been obvious nor have you ever really condemned them. So you and I are equally at fault for defending our point of views and we are on opposite sides.

The difference is I have stated a number of times I deplore all loss of life and I think the Palestinians have been hostages of Hamas and their terrorist activities. This is an organization that advocated putting bombs on teenagers and sending them to Isreali check points to blow themselves up. If THAT doesn't convince you that there is a more definate right and wrong in this mess nothing will. The Israeli's have been heavy handed, but I don't see Jewish kids strapped with bombs walking into a market in Palestinian areas and pressing the button....

[Camelopard]

Ok history has no bearing in this. Then tell me who has controlled the Gaza Strip for the last 60 years? Do they have no claim then either????

It was a sarcastic comment, you obviously haven't read every post in this thread, my posts about how the zionists used terrorism to gain what they wanted were met with comments that it was ancient history.......


Hey all you guys that wish to live in the past ! Go read about the Trojan Horse...........................

[steve_spackman]

Steve..you are just as hostile to my views as I am of yours. Furthermore, you are the one stating we don't know the truth because the Media is lying to us and you have numerous posts demeaning and defaming Israel with little more justification than that is what you defending. Your attacks on Hamas have not been obvious nor have you ever really condemned them. So you and I are equally at fault for defending our point of views and we are on opposite sides.

The difference is I have stated a number of times I deplore all loss of life and I think the Palestinians have been hostages of Hamas and their terrorist activities. This is an organization that advocated putting bombs on teenagers and sending them to Isreali check points to blow themselves up. If THAT doesn't convince you that there is a more definate right and wrong in this mess nothing will. The Israeli's have been heavy handed, but I don't see Jewish kids strapped with bombs walking into a market in Palestinian areas and pressing the button....

very true you dont see that, but you do see a $40 billion plus war machine going to war against a bunch of guys who make rockets on a kitchen table.

alot of these people who do the suicide attacks are the people who have nothing left to live for and are driven by pure anger by the way that they are treated....even you must agree with this one??

AS I HAVE SAID ON NUMEROUS POSTS, i do deplore BOTH SIDES AND THINK THAT THEY ARE AS BAD AS EACHOTHER, if people cant read the posts properly then dont bother reading them

anyway have a great yet safe weekend and lets all kiss and make up and hold hands..

till next time...

[Mark in Oshawa]

very true you dont see that, but you do see a $40 billion plus war machine going to war against a bunch of guys who make rockets on a kitchen table.

alot of these people who do the suicide attacks are the people who have nothing left to live for and are driven by pure anger by the way that they are treated....even you must agree with this one??

AS I HAVE SAID ON NUMEROUS POSTS, i do deplore BOTH SIDES AND THINK THAT THEY ARE AS BAD AS EACHOTHER, if people cant read the posts properly then dont bother reading them

anyway have a great yet safe weekend and lets all kiss and make up and hold hands..

till next time...

I agree on the anger 100%. That doesn't mean it is right to put your kids into suits made of TNT either. As for the assertion that the military industrial complex is behind all of this I don't think is quite valid.

It is a defense issue for the average guy on the street in Tel Aviv or wherever. He elects his politicians to run a government that in the end better protect him. If a rocket is falling in his backyard killing his family, he is going to want someone to stop it. The Israeli military is only guilty of having better stuff than Hamas. That said most of these rockets are being bought and paid for by Arab supporters who have funnelled money into Hamas. IF Hamas is so broke...why are they wasting their money on arms if they need to have food and medical supplies? The UN and most of the Western Nations would love to increase aid to Hamas if they dropped this Jihad business against Israel. Once Gaza had their support on this level, Israel wouldn't be able to do anything BUT co-operate.

It is a PR exercise in the end. You want real sympathy from people such as myself, quit killing people and helping your own and drop the Islamic Jihad rhetoric and all the sudden your lot in life might improve. Hamas could hate Jews from now til next millienium and I wouldn't care if they never did more than think about it. The second you start launching rockets over the border....or putting bombs on kids, you lose any intellectual support to your argument.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you don't believe me that the Western world wouldn't give aid to the Palestinians...look at the Millions given to Fatah/Arafat by the Clinton Administration and other western powers in the 90's. When the bombing and violence erupted, and the corruption of Arafat became obvious...the money was shut off.

Most western powers and I think people want some sort of peace in this area and we are willing to give aid to make it happen but the shooting HAS to stop.

Every time there is a level of peace or quiet for a few years....it usually comes from Hamas, Hezbollah or some other radical organziation to start the violence again. Israel isn't always innocent but there is a political process at work there that has been at odds with the right wing settlers who are in the West Bank and were in Gaza. That said...Israel pulled out of Gaza and was willing to work to make something happen but the violence has never went away......

[Easy Drifter]

I will try to be short for a change. I am going to watch the news on a local station and read 2 newspapers, one conservative and one liberal biased.
There is only one person involved in this debate I have no use for on this subject. That is Eki who has openly stated he does not think Israel should exist.
I certainly disagree with others but they at least admit that Israel has the right to exist if not have all the territory they have.
I side Israel but agree there is wrong on both sides.
I also will willingly debate on other topics with people and hold no grudges against people I disagree with here.
Talk racing and I might even agree with Eki!

[Hondo]

My simplistic summation is that it means more to Israel to keep their country than it does for anyone else to take it away from them.

[TOgoFASTER]

Non neoconned conservative view....

http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/12/pjb-bush-obama-and-the-gaza-blitz/

[steve_spackman]

Non neoconned conservative view....

http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/12/pjb-bush-obama-and-the-gaza-blitz/

a good and honest view...someone whom has not been brainswashed by the likes of AIPAC and co.

[TOgoFASTER]

Talk about propaganda... Getting a lot of air play in the USA. Keep them dollars comin'.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HnHu19Xf4ak

[steve_spackman]

Talk about propaganda... Getting a lot of air play in the USA. Keep them dollars comin'.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HnHu19Xf4ak

yes that is very good propaganda..

that guy who was doing all the talking is the same guy who keeps asking people for money to help send all the jews back to the holy land, to help feed the jews old and homeless etc

so i am wondering where is all this $7million aid thats going to Israle each day going?

[airshifter]

yes that is very good propaganda..

that guy who was doing all the talking is the same guy who keeps asking people for money to help send all the jews back to the holy land, to help feed the jews old and homeless etc

so i am wondering where is all this $7million aid thats going to Israle each day going?

I've never seen it here in the US, seems like maybe it's an EU based advert!

I'm sure none of the millions going to Palestinian causes pays for rockets right?


And Fousto, if you're still reading, it looks like Israel already wanted to act on Iran earlier and got a red light from Bush!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_israel

[TOgoFASTER]

US based ad playing the cable channels at least.
US based organization: International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer

[Hondo]

So far it seems that neither side has any serious interest in a cease fire so go ahead and let them fight it out.

[donKey jote]

I would agree with you Fiero, but for the civilians caught up in the middle :s

[ioan]

I would agree with you Fiero, but for the civilians caught up in the middle :s

It's sad, but they made their choice when they elected Hamas.
Also IDF does warn them to leave areas where they will strike but these people don't do it, for stupid reasons we all know.

[ioan]

Just ran into this one on another site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo&feature=rec-HM-r2

I'm having troubles believing what I saw (I had to read the translations cause I do not understand Arab).

[jim mcglinchey]

It's sad, but they made their choice when they elected Hamas.
Also IDF does warn them to leave areas where they will strike but these people don't do it, for stupid reasons we all know.


yeah, they enjoy having white phosphorous rain on their kids heads because it makes the jews look bad

[ioan]

yeah, they enjoy having white phosphorous rain on their kids heads because it makes the jews look bad

:rolleyes:

[donKey jote]

It's sad, but they made their choice when they elected Hamas.
Also IDF does warn them to leave areas where they will strike but these people don't do it, for stupid reasons we all know.

I don't think anyone elects to be massacred, no :rolleyes:
As for your second sentence... what reasons do you all know ? :dozey:

I'm not pro-Hamas or anti-Israel, I'm pro-diplomacy and anti-an eye for 100 eyes.

Many go on here about Hamas unilaterally breaking the cease-fire and deserving to be crushed. Was the blockade on Gaza lifted in return? Did Israel not take out a Hamas commando in a precision attack (unlike the current operations) while the cease-fire was supposedly still in place? So what reason had they to keep it?
As for civilians deserving to be crushed because they voted Hamas in free elections... no comment :rolleyes:

[steve_spackman]

I've never seen it here in the US, seems like maybe it's an EU based advert!

I'm sure none of the millions going to Palestinian causes pays for rockets right?

nah its a advert ive seen on US tv.. whilst flicking through the channels i saw that guy on a religious channel called DAYSTAR....

So he is asking the US population to give up there money to help Jews, when they get that $7 million in aid per day from the US.

[Daniel]

people who have the english flag just dont live near london...the english flag (st georges cross) is the flag of england.....

:D I love how people think that England is London or something. Wtf's with that? :crazy:

[steve_spackman]

:D I love how people think that England is London or something. Wtf's with that? :crazy:

yeah when i go to the states i sometimes get people asking me if im from London...i say no im not from London, but yes i am from england..their response is "wheres that?"

[Daniel]

yeah when i go to the states i sometimes get people asking me if im from London...i say no im not from London, but yes i am from england..their response is "wheres that?"

Better than them calling you an Ah-see (say it out loud ;) )

God help them if I have to try and explain that I'm from Wales though :crazy:

[Roamy]

Well I guess that area over there must be pretty insignificant to us. Probably if you are from Scotland we many know where that is because of Golf and Scotch Whiskey. Kidney pie doesn't ring many bells over here!! (:

[Daniel]

Well I guess that area over there must be pretty insignificant to us. Probably if you are from Scotland we many know where that is because of Golf and Scotch Whiskey. Kidney pie doesn't ring many bells over here!! (:
Or perhaps it's the fact that quite a few Americans seem small minded and not bothered with the rest of the world :)

[steve_spackman]

Well I guess that area over there must be pretty insignificant to us. Probably if you are from Scotland we many know where that is because of Golf and Scotch Whiskey. Kidney pie doesn't ring many bells over here!! (:

dont forget fish and chips with mushy peas...oh and a good cuppa tea too ;)

[Eki]

:D I love how people think that England is London or something. Wtf's with that? :crazy:

[Joey Tribbiani]London, baby![/Joey Tribbiani]

[steve_spackman]

Or perhaps it's the fact that quite a few Americans seem small minded and not bothered with the rest of the world :)

agree, but you get people from all countries that are like that..

[Easy Drifter]

May not ring many bells but does not the sound of the Bagpipes resonate? :D

[Daniel]

agree, but you get people from all countries that are like that..

Yes but I think for instance Australians and Brits seem to be a bit more well travelled :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

yeah when i go to the states i sometimes get people asking me if im from London...i say no im not from London, but yes i am from england..their response is "wheres that?"

Steve...I cant count the number of times I have heard stories of "oh..you are in from Canada? You know my cousin Bob in Vancouver?" For the record.....33 million people in Canada, Vancouver is 3400 miles west of me...NO I DON'T KNOW YOUR COUSIN BOB!

So see...don't take it personally.

Actually...many Americans do know or have an idea a little about what happens up here in their "attic"....and I can also tell you I know a number of Canadians who don't know jack about the US but can tell you how screwed up it is when they really have no clue.

[chuck34]

:D I love how people think that England is London or something. Wtf's with that? :crazy:

Forgive me for thinking people might care about the capital of their country.

Just another "stupid yank" thing to do, eh Dodger?

I'm from Indiana and live no where near Indianapolis. But I do think I would care if some jerk-off from Chicago was firing rockets down there.

[Daniel]

Forgive me for thinking people might care about the capital of their country.

Just another "stupid yank" thing to do, eh Dodger?
huh? What are you on about?

[chuck34]

very true you dont see that, but you do see a $40 billion plus war machine going to war against a bunch of guys who make rockets on a kitchen table.

alot of these people who do the suicide attacks are the people who have nothing left to live for and are driven by pure anger by the way that they are treated....even you must agree with this one??

AS I HAVE SAID ON NUMEROUS POSTS, i do deplore BOTH SIDES AND THINK THAT THEY ARE AS BAD AS EACHOTHER, if people cant read the posts properly then dont bother reading them

anyway have a great yet safe weekend and lets all kiss and make up and hold hands..

till next time...

You may have said that both sides are as bad as each other. However you have repeated over and over again how the Jewish religion is based on a cult, and therefore they have no claim to the land they are in.

So I'll ask you once again (I don't know why, I know it will do no good), but what exactly is your definition of a legitimate claim to the land in question?

You do understand that this is a relevant question, don't you? Sort of the basis for the whole thing, right? Without some agreement on this point there is no need for negotiation.

I think it's pretty clear that both Israel and Palestine need and deserve their own countries there.

[chuck34]

huh? What are you on about?

Wow I guess I need to talk slower.

You were trying to insult me for thinking that all of England was London, and I was pointing out the fact that since Steve flies the cross of St. George that he might care about the capital of his country. It all comes from our hypethetical descussion about the Welsh bombing London that he refuses to answer.

[Roamy]

Or perhaps it's the fact that quite a few Americans seem small minded and not bothered with the rest of the world :)

Yep - If we don't want to eat we just blow it up. Plus there are so many great things to see and do in this country that you are correct except its not small minded to not want to travel to the Islamic Euro Nation. Now if you wanted to do something nice let Portugal, Spain and Italy form their own nation or union and then you would have something of interest!!

[Daniel]

Wow I guess I need to talk slower.

You were trying to insult me for thinking that all of England was London, and I was pointing out the fact that since Steve flies the cross of St. George that he might care about the capital of his country. It all comes from our hypethetical descussion about the Welsh bombing London that he refuses to answer.
You seem to have issues directing your comments at the right person

[Daniel]

Yep - If we don't want to eat we just blow it up. Plus there are so many great things to see and do in this country that you are correct except its not small minded to not want to travel to the Islamic Euro Nation. Now if you wanted to do something nice let Portugal, Spain and Italy form their own nation or union and then you would have something of interest!!

LOL. Islamic Euro Nation. How funny is that :D I must admit I did find all those mosques in Finland, Switzerland and France strange :p Couldn't move for aaaaaaaaaaaaall the Islamic people around you :laugh:

[chuck34]

You seem to have issues directing your comments at the right person

Just using your quote to respond to you and Steve at the same time. I guess I need to only refer to one person at a time?

[TOgoFASTER]

Or perhaps it's the fact that quite a few Americans seem small minded and not bothered with the rest of the world :)

It's true a good number couldn't find themselves on a map even with the local weathermen showing them the spot daily.

[Daniel]

Just using your quote to respond to you and Steve at the same time. I guess I need to only refer to one person at a time?

When you're in a room with people do you look at person x while you're speaking to person y?

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's true a good number couldn't find themselves on a map even with the local weathermen showing them the spot daily.

Sadly...you are right. Americans often have little concept of Geography. I say this after losing track of the number of times I have asked for directions for something 10 miles away that is well known and getting wrong answers or blank stares....

[Daniel]

Sadly...you are right. Americans often have little concept of Geography. I say this after losing track of the number of times I have asked for directions for something 10 miles away that is well known and getting wrong answers or blank stares....

Which I think is a symptom of not travelling and seeing the world. I myself am not that well travelled but compared to some people I could probably write a travel book :p

[Daniel]

Sadly...you are right. Americans often have little concept of Geography. I say this after losing track of the number of times I have asked for directions for something 10 miles away that is well known and getting wrong answers or blank stares....
and I might also add which is why some Americans seem to think we're overrun with Muslims here which we're definitely not.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Daniel...Americans get that from the media...who made much hay about the Muslim's putting bombs on buses and in the tube a few years back. The media reports often were BBC feeds by the way so if the Americans are confused....it isn't because they tried to be.

As for the Americans not being as aware of things overseas or even over the border as they should be, there is a valid reason for that. It isn't just that they are not always taught as much world issues and geography in school, it is that life in the US has so much going on withing their own states that often your average man on the street would have to spend a lot of time or curiousity learning what is going on just in his own nation. The nature of the media and the amount of news and activity in a country of 300 plus million makes it hard for all but the VERY curious to know what is going on outside the USA.

I will also say I probably know more about the US than most Americans because I took an interest in it a long time ago and travel so much in the US over the course of my job (which sadly will mean I am hard at work starting tomorrow and NOT on here very much). That said..your Average Canadian is clueless to how the US governmental system works and how their politicians have to get elected. I suspect most in the UK know even less about the USA.....there is a lot that is stereotype rather than fact...

[Daniel]

Daniel...Americans get that from the media...who made much hay about the Muslim's putting bombs on buses and in the tube a few years back. The media reports often were BBC feeds by the way so if the Americans are confused....it isn't because they tried to be.

As for the Americans not being as aware of things overseas or even over the border as they should be, there is a valid reason for that. It isn't just that they are not always taught as much world issues and geography in school, it is that life in the US has so much going on withing their own states that often your average man on the street would have to spend a lot of time or curiousity learning what is going on just in his own nation. The nature of the media and the amount of news and activity in a country of 300 plus million makes it hard for all but the VERY curious to know what is going on outside the USA.

I will also say I probably know more about the US than most Americans because I took an interest in it a long time ago and travel so much in the US over the course of my job (which sadly will mean I am hard at work starting tomorrow and NOT on here very much). That said..your Average Canadian is clueless to how the US governmental system works and how their politicians have to get elected. I suspect most in the UK know even less about the USA.....there is a lot that is stereotype rather than fact...

The thing is I could base my assumptions of the US on what I saw on Sept 11. Which would be incredibly stupid.

I encourage anyone to come here to North Wales where I live and point out the big problems with the way life is over here compared to in the US. I suspect everyday life here or in Perth where I come from is probably rather much like what it is over there give or take the things which change whenever you move from country to country.

[chuck34]

When you're in a room with people do you look at person x while you're speaking to person y?

No, I would look at person X AND person Y. You are person X and Steve is person Y. Try and keep up. I was refering to BOTH of you. Didn't realize that was such a hard concept.

[Daniel]

No, I would look at person X AND person Y. You are person X and Steve is person Y. Try and keep up. I was refering to BOTH of you. Didn't realize that was such a hard concept.
Well then post a reply to Steve if you're talking to Steve, not me.....

[chuck34]

It's true a good number couldn't find themselves on a map even with the local weathermen showing them the spot daily.

I'm sure that can be said about people in any country.

There a a lot of people in the US that are very inteligent, as there are in other countries.

The problem is the much talked about and debated "media". Could your assumption that we couldn't find ourselves on a map be based on the Eurocentric media feeds about Americans?

[chuck34]

Well then post a reply to Steve if you're talking to Steve, not me.....

I will say it slower this time.

I

was

talking

to

BOTH

of

you!

[Daniel]

I will say it slower this time.

I

was

talking

to

BOTH

of

you!
I'll say it slower
if
you
reply
to
someone
else
please
make
it
clear
as
your
posting
style
is
somewhat
confusing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The thing is I could base my assumptions of the US on what I saw on Sept 11. Which would be incredibly stupid.

I encourage anyone to come here to North Wales where I live and point out the big problems with the way life is over here compared to in the US. I suspect everyday life here or in Perth where I come from is probably rather much like what it is over there give or take the things which change whenever you move from country to country.

Daniel..we all don't know as much as we would probably like about nations we criticize or make comment on. I haven't been to the UK or Europe so any comment I make is tempered by the fact that I am going on what I can pick up in the media, what happens historically and ancedotal evidence from people I know either from Europe or who have been there.

I think my point though is Americans don't get as much proper information as they maybe should and their country is so busy and complicated with what is going on right on their doorsteps that they don't have the time or energy always to learn that process. They are also a proud nation and the insularity of the populace is partially bred out of pride in what they have and that can breed ignorance and some xenophobic tendencies.

You guys in the UK or us Canadians get a different view due to the size of our nations and the nature of our societial values. That and the fact the UK is within shouting distances of all those cultures on the continent. Us Canadians have half our populace born elsewhere in the last generation or so. We look outwards because the roots elsewhere are so real. The American melting pot has discouraged this and with maybe a logical reason in that if you go to live there they want you to leave a lot of baggage behind.....

[Daniel]

Daniel..we all don't know as much as we would probably like about nations we criticize or make comment on. I haven't been to the UK or Europe so any comment I make is tempered by the fact that I am going on what I can pick up in the media, what happens historically and ancedotal evidence from people I know either from Europe or who have been there.

I think my point though is Americans don't get as much proper information as they maybe should and their country is so busy and complicated with what is going on right on their doorsteps that they don't have the time or energy always to learn that process. They are also a proud nation and the insularity of the populace is partially bred out of pride in what they have and that can breed ignorance and some xenophobic tendencies.

You guys in the UK or us Canadians get a different view due to the size of our nations and the nature of our societial values. That and the fact the UK is within shouting distances of all those cultures on the continent. Us Canadians have half our populace born elsewhere in the last generation or so. We look outwards because the roots elsewhere are so real. The American melting pot has discouraged this and with maybe a logical reason in that if you go to live there they want you to leave a lot of baggage behind.....

:up: I pretty much agree with all of that :)

[chuck34]

:D I love how people think that England is London or something. Wtf's with that? :crazy:

OK Daniel try this. I hope it meets with your forum rules. I assumed that since you had such a "superior" education to us dumb, drooling Americans that you could follow someone refering to two seperate people in 1 post. I now know better and will refrain from doing so in the future.


Forgive me for thinking people might care about the capital of their country.

I'm from Indiana and live no where near Indianapolis. But I do think I would care if some jerk-off from Chicago was firing rockets down there.

[Daniel]

OK Daniel try this. I hope it meets with your forum rules. I assumed that since you had such a "superior" education to us dumb, drooling Americans that you could follow someone refering to two seperate people in 1 post. I now know better and will refrain from doing so in the future.


Forgive me for thinking people might care about the capital of their country.

I'm from Indiana and live no where near Indianapolis. But I do think I would care if some jerk-off from Chicago was firing rockets down there.
Cheers :)

The structure of the UK is very different to that in the US or in Australia for instance. In Australia for instance a good proportion of people actually live in their state capital. In the UK you get all sorts of different accents in such a small country and people also forget that there are 4 different countries in the United Kingdom there is also a Welsh Assembly, a Scottish Parliament and a Northern Ireland Executive. In fact the only country that doesn't have it's own parliament as such is England. Even here in Wales there is a North South rivalry. The South presents itself as the "real" Wales even though historically it's the North that fought fiercely to remain Welsh and fight off the English. If you asked an English person about Wales they'd probably talk about the South and the strange people with speach impediments who live there.

Of course we'd care if someone started shooting rockets at London but in some ways people could care less about London. I've been there three times and I just don't "get it". You'll never find me living in London that's for sure!

[steve_spackman]

Steve...I cant count the number of times I have heard stories of "oh..you are in from Canada? You know my cousin Bob in Vancouver?" For the record.....33 million people in Canada, Vancouver is 3400 miles west of me...NO I DON'T KNOW YOUR COUSIN BOB!

So see...don't take it personally.

Actually...many Americans do know or have an idea a little about what happens up here in their "attic"....and I can also tell you I know a number of Canadians who don't know jack about the US but can tell you how screwed up it is when they really have no clue.

dont worry i dont take it personally

this is VERY funny..take a look people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

[steve_spackman]

I will say it slower this time.

I

was

talking

to

BOTH

of

you!

I wouldnt give a flying fook if the welsh starting lobbing rockets at London..there i have answered your question MATE!!!

[Daniel]

dont worry i dont take it personally

this is VERY funny..take a look people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE
:rotflmao:

Gotta love Chaser :D

[Daniel]

I wouldnt give a flying fook if the welsh starting lobbing rockets at London..there i have answered your question MATE!!!
Were you talking to me? :confused:




:p

[Easy Drifter]

Mark: I do not think people not having a clue about where things are in their own country is confined to the US.
When we had our store in Wabaushene, just off the 400 the number of lost people was amazing. Many in the GTA seemed to think the 400 took them to all of central Ontario. A weekly occurance was ones looking for Wasaga Beach and/or Blue Mountain. Casino Rama was another common one. North Bay not unusual. We even had Owen Sound, Lindsay and Peterborough. The variety store once had a group of people looking for Niagara Falls!
A puzzling one was a woman from Timmins looking for the airport. There is an airport near Midland and Lake Simcoe Regional just off 11 so we were trying to figure out what was what. Eventually it turned out she was looking for Pearson Int'l. She had been on the road for hours and figured out she must be close. Only about 2 hrs. to go lady.

The almost funny ones were looking for the 'secret' super fishing Lake Waubaushene. There of course is no such lake. It has to be an internet hoax.
As we were a fishing tackle store they always came to us to get directions to the 'secret' lake.
We were rarely believed when they were told there was no such lake and were openly called liars on occasion and sometimes they got hostile.

[Hondo]

Interesting.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1231424929296

[chuck34]

Cheers :)

The structure of the UK is very different to that in the US or in Australia for instance. In Australia for instance a good proportion of people actually live in their state capital. In the UK you get all sorts of different accents in such a small country and people also forget that there are 4 different countries in the United Kingdom there is also a Welsh Assembly, a Scottish Parliament and a Northern Ireland Executive. In fact the only country that doesn't have it's own parliament as such is England. Even here in Wales there is a North South rivalry. The South presents itself as the "real" Wales even though historically it's the North that fought fiercely to remain Welsh and fight off the English. If you asked an English person about Wales they'd probably talk about the South and the strange people with speach impediments who live there.

Of course we'd care if someone started shooting rockets at London but in some ways people could care less about London. I've been there three times and I just don't "get it". You'll never find me living in London that's for sure!

Apparently you are unaware that the US also has many different levels of government. We have township, school districts, counties, states, and then the federal government. And just like you in the UK many of those govenments don't get along, or have rivalries.

It's good to know that at least you would have some sympathy for London. Apparently some do not. I sort of feel the same way about New York, "who cares". But then again I sure as heck didn't want what happend to them on 9/11 to happen. It's sort of like having a little brother. You can pick on him, but as soon as someone else does, you'll stick up for him

[chuck34]

I wouldnt give a flying fook if the welsh starting lobbing rockets at London..there i have answered your question MATE!!!

Thanks for finally answering my question.

You have confirmed once and for all that you have no human compasion what-so-ever. Therefore you are now on my ignore list.

By the way thanks for the PM, that was pretty classy, you stupid, ignorant Brit.

[steve_spackman]

Thanks for finally answering my question.

You have confirmed once and for all that you have no human compasion what-so-ever. Therefore you are now on my ignore list.

By the way thanks for the PM, that was pretty classy, you stupid, ignorant Brit.

the answer i gave you was actually me being sarcastic...COURSE I WOULD CARE IF THE WELSH LOBBED ROCKETS AT LONDON...WHAT YOU TAKE ME FOR???

i have compassion...1 you dont know me at all and 2 you only know me through these posts i have written..thats NO way to judge someone, but you are free to think what you wish..you read WAY TOO MUCH into what people say (or just see what you want to see) and take it to heart..

be safe

[TOgoFASTER]

Could your assumption that we couldn't find ourselves on a map be based on the Eurocentric media feeds about Americans?

No.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thanks for finally answering my question.

You have confirmed once and for all that you have no human compasion what-so-ever. Therefore you are now on my ignore list.

By the way thanks for the PM, that was pretty classy, you stupid, ignorant Brit.

I Chuck...as goofy as I have found some of his points, I would say you gotta read between the lines and realize he wasn't serious.

Now Eki on the other hand...well.....I have no idea if he hasn't always been contrary and awkward to get.

[Roamy]

Hamas top rocket man - the engineer took the long sleep today.

GO Israel !!!!!

[Eki]

Israel bombed a clinic run by the Finnish Lutheran Church yesterday. Luckily it was empty and nobody got hurt. The clinic was primarily aimed for women and children. I guess Israel wants to get the children before they are old enough to join Hamas?

[Camelopard]

Some interesting maps here from a Quaker organisation who surely can't be trusted:

http://www.quaker.org/piag/InfoMapsLatest.pdf

In particular notice the quotes from sharon.

[Camelopard]

fousto whist you are such a celebratory mood have a look at this site run by survivors of the USS Liberty

http://www.gtr5.com/

and read about how your beloved idf murdered 34 US sailors and wounded a further 174 and how this criminal act has been covered up by both the israelis and the US administration ever since:


"The Cover Up


Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.

</SPAN>In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found at http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf (http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf)"


"After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. This same torpedo boat crew had been circling the ship, machine-gunning anyone who stuck his head above decks, as well as the lifeboats the crew had put over the side.
What had changed? The Israeli government knew that US aircraft carriers had just launched aircraft to come to Liberty's aid and the attack was quickly called off. The Israeli government called the US Embassy and said that they had made a "mistake."
A torpedo boat officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?"
The wounded commander of the Liberty, Captain William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "F*ck you." "

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html


But hey, crap happens, as long as it doesn't happen to me or one of my loved ones......

[Camelopard]

Israel bombed a clinic run by the Finnish Lutheran Church yesterday. Luckily it was empty and nobody got hurt. The clinic was primarily aimed for women and children. I guess Israel wants to get the children before they are old enough to join Hamas?

Hey Eki, they wouldn't have done that, they only bomb unarmed Finnish Peace Keepers along the Lebanon border.

Those Lutherans are a militant bunch, in particular the Finnish ones, I'm sure they were harbouring hamas fighters and therefore deserved what they got.

[chuck34]

I Chuck...as goofy as I have found some of his points, I would say you gotta read between the lines and realize he wasn't serious.

Now Eki on the other hand...well.....I have no idea if he hasn't always been contrary and awkward to get.

I realize that he was not serious in that particular post. However, that is why I said that he has no compasion. This is not a subject that I find lends itself to too much joking. The only serious thing that he has said in this whole thread is that the Jewish people are basically insignificant because they have based their lives, religion, and culture on a cult. The rest has just been jokes and insults directed at me in particular and all Americans in general.

Here is the PM he sent me. "typical response from a typical stupid yank..." How would you read between those lines?

That is why I said he has no compassion, not because he cracked one (really bad) joke.

[chuck34]

Israel bombed a clinic run by the Finnish Lutheran Church yesterday. Luckily it was empty and nobody got hurt. The clinic was primarily aimed for women and children. I guess Israel wants to get the children before they are old enough to join Hamas?

That is truly a tragedy. If Israel targeted that building then I would ask for a full investigation. If it was an accident or targeting error (those do happen even with "smart" weapons), I would expect an apology. If no apology is forthcoming, then I would hope that one would be demanded from the international community.

Now where is the apology from Hamas for targeting civilians???

[Hondo]

I realize that he was not serious in that particular post. However, that is why I said that he has no compasion. This is not a subject that I find lends itself to too much joking. The only serious thing that he has said in this whole thread is that the Jewish people are basically insignificant because they have based their lives, religion, and culture on a cult. The rest has just been jokes and insults directed at me in particular and all Americans in general.

Here is the PM he sent me. "typical response from a typical stupid yank..." How would you read between those lines?

That is why I said he has no compassion, not because he cracked one (really bad) joke.

Looks extremely typical to me.

[steve_spackman]

That is truly a tragedy. If Israel targeted that building then I would ask for a full investigation. If it was an accident or targeting error (those do happen even with "smart" weapons), I would expect an apology. If no apology is forthcoming, then I would hope that one would be demanded from the international community.

Now where is the apology from Hamas for targeting civilians???

Israel takes no notice (like hamas) of the international community

[Eki]

That is truly a tragedy. If Israel targeted that building then I would ask for a full investigation. If it was an accident or targeting error (those do happen even with "smart" weapons), I would expect an apology. If no apology is forthcoming, then I would hope that one would be demanded from the international community.

Now where is the apology from Hamas for targeting civilians???
They just interviewed a reprensentative of the Lutheran church and the Finnish foreign minister on TV. The church representative said the clinic was the only building that got hit in the area, and that it really seemed it was done in purpose to destroy the infrastructure helping the locals. The foreign minister said he's going to talk with the Israeli ambassador on Wednesday and see if other consequences will be necessary.

[Roamy]

Israel bombed a clinic run by the Finnish Lutheran Church yesterday. Luckily it was empty and nobody got hurt. The clinic was primarily aimed for women and children. I guess Israel wants to get the children before they are old enough to join Hamas?

Well that is one of the objectives of war EKI - What do you think war is a freaking soccer game. The price for shooting rockets into civilian area needs to be high and Israel is doing just that. And quite frankly if the Islams are going to train their children as they do in school to become suicide bombers then unfortunately they will ultimately end up victims of their parents demise.
The Pales elected Hamas so none of this should come as a surprise. Maybe a simpler example for you EKI would be about the guy who went to alaska every year to sing to the grizzly bears. really didn't end well for him and sadly his girlfriend got a final education as well.

[steve_spackman]

Well that is one of the objectives of war EKI - What do you think war is a freaking soccer game. The price for shooting rockets into civilian area needs to be high and Israel is doing just that. And quite frankly if the Islams are going to train their children as they do in school to become suicide bombers then unfortunately they will ultimately end up victims of their parents demise.
The Pales elected Hamas so none of this should come as a surprise. Maybe a simpler example for you EKI would be about the guy who went to alaska every year to sing to the grizzly bears. really didn't end well for him and sadly his girlfriend got a final education as well.

so is Israel not to blame at all for anything thats happened?

Israle should be tried for war crimes, and all land that they have stolen should be handed back to the previous owner...

if the US is so interested in Israel than why not ask your government to bring them over to the US...do everyone a favour eh?

[steve_spackman]

I realize that he was not serious in that particular post. However, that is why I said that he has no compasion. This is not a subject that I find lends itself to too much joking. The only serious thing that he has said in this whole thread is that the Jewish people are basically insignificant because they have based their lives, religion, and culture on a cult. The rest has just been jokes and insults directed at me in particular and all Americans in general.

i have not been throwing insults at ALL americans

only the ones who cant see beyond their owen backyards

[Hondo]

i have not been throwing insults at ALL americans

only the ones who cant see beyond their owen backyards

Spoken like a man that has vision problems himself.

[steve_spackman]

Spoken like a man that has vision problems himself.

i do..i wear contacts mate

[Mark in Oshawa]

Anti-democracy? Hamas was democratically elected. Surrenderring to Israel would be anti-democratic and betraying their voters. I guess your definition of democracy is different than mine, because I don't consider very democratic forcing other people across the globe at gun point to become "democratic". I call it dictating and making the rules as you go, the US does a lot of dictating in the world and the Israeli does a lot of dictating in the Middle East.

The Nazi's were elected too Eki. You want to defend what they did to Europe? I have no problem with any party/regime being elected until they start attacking their neighbour. Israel was taking about 60 rockets a day for about 2 to 3 weeks before they started to fight back in the manner they have. Kinda funny...I always thought the point of having a military was to defend your nation when it was attacked.

As for you SOD defaming people flying F-16's and bombing Gaza...ya....and if Hamas had one they would take little Jewish kids up for joy rides? Get off it man.....The Israeli's are in there on the ground too. They aren't paying someone else to make a mess of the place.

This whole thing will end when the Palestinians realize there has to be another way. You of course wouldn't want to explain to me how moral and right it was they were routinely sending teens with bombs strapped to them to Israeli territory now would you? I know that wouldn't jive with the fiction you keep trying to sell us....

[steve_spackman]

The Nazi's were elected too Eki. You want to defend what they did to Europe? I have no problem with any party/regime being elected until they start attacking their neighbour. Israel was taking about 60 rockets a day for about 2 to 3 weeks before they started to fight back in the manner they have. Kinda funny...I always thought the point of having a military was to defend your nation when it was attacked.

As for you SOD defaming people flying F-16's and bombing Gaza...ya....and if Hamas had one they would take little Jewish kids up for joy rides? Get off it man.....The Israeli's are in there on the ground too. They aren't paying someone else to make a mess of the place.

This whole thing will end when the Palestinians realize there has to be another way. You of course wouldn't want to explain to me how moral and right it was they were routinely sending teens with bombs strapped to them to Israeli territory now would you? I know that wouldn't jive with the fiction you keep trying to sell us....

damn mark the more i read your posts the more i am tending to agree with you... ;)

[steve_spackman]

mark

wouldnt you think that if Israel was placed in NA then this kinda thing would still happen..hell if Israel was put anywhere else in the world this would still happen

[Hondo]

It might be beneficial for some to seek out and read of Hamas' history in the Gaza Strip. Hamas isn't doing this for the Palestinians.

[Mark in Oshawa]

so is Israel not to blame at all for anything thats happened?

Israle should be tried for war crimes, and all land that they have stolen should be handed back to the previous owner...

if the US is so interested in Israel than why not ask your government to bring them over to the US...do everyone a favour eh?

Israel gets attacked but doesn't have the right to fight back?

Oh right..they shouldn't be there. Steve...you ever really think how retarded that sounds? After 60 years it is a done deal. It aint going back. The sooner you and your Hamas buddies figure that out the better off everyone can get on with a peaceful existence. The country isn't going to be tried for war crimes. People get tried....not nations. AS for whether there is a war crime, no there isn't if you wont try Hamas, the al-Fatah, PLO, and Hezbollah as well. No one in this part of the world has clean hands. It is only you that fails to see that there are two sides and two issues.

Gee...this is would be like advocating the UK is a vicious regime that should be up on war crimes for what they did to Ireland? How about the Russians for stealing part of Finland? Heck....what about the government of Newfoundland for wiping out the Beothuk Indians in the 1700's. Where does it stop? Pretty damned soon you have no one without sin. Except you self righteous libreals in Europe who of course have no blood on your hands for anything. Right....one thing I know for sure is Europe taught the world a ton about war, war crimes and brutality. The Yanks and us Colonials twice had to come back over to help push the Germans back.....now THERE was some SERIOUS war crimes. What we have in Gaza is just a terrorist organization masking themselves as the government of the Palestinian people in Gaza firing rockets at the Israeli's and the Israeli's being a little sloppy in their aim at times. That is war...you want to stop a war, stop defending people who launch rockets indiscriminately at a country that will get mad eventually and come over and rearrange your furniture with an f16. It aint hard to figure out...but I know you Steve...you wont make the effort.

You keep thinking we can turn back the clock 60 years...try about 3000 years....

[TOgoFASTER]

i have not been throwing insults at ALL americans

only the ones who cant see beyond their owen backyards

I found the "all Americans" part extremely funny.

The middle east troika of love stoled the whole thing from Zoroastrianism (Persia) and whatever else worked for them at the time. Guess they must be a troika of copycults. ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

damn mark the more i read your posts the more i am tending to agree with you... ;)


And to thank you one post later I took a swipe at ya...lol...and then you had said something nice like THAT.

Here is it is Steve. I am not in favour of slaughter, war and misery for any people on this earth. A few select politicians perhaps but not to the people. That said, this conflict comes and goes like the tide. It lays low for 2 years and then there is some "provocation" and the shooting starts. The provocation nine times out of ten is pretty much the Palestinians in either the West Bank or Gaza decide to start ratcheting up violent acts against Israel. Now Israel isn't going to go anywhere. I have said it before...they aren't going to go anywhere and at this point have as much right to stick around as anyone. That ship sailed a long time ago. At some point the only way to legitimately have an argument against Israel and the supposed (we have no real idea based on the news and propganda from both sides) economic discrimination is to NOT have Hamas launching rockets or Fatah to have kids in the streets throwing rocks and shooting like in the past. Confront the Israeli's with the Mohatma Gandhi school of resistance and THEN you can hold the moral high ground. Right now....the Isreali's have based on the fact they regret the fighting. Hamas and the Palestinians fire guns in the air and toss candy out in the street when Israeli's die....

[Eki]

The Nazi's were elected too Eki.
For a reason. The Allied had put Germany down so badly and humiliated them after WW I, just like Israel has put down the Palestinians badly and humiliated them. The Allied could have shown more mercy to the Germans and Israel could show more mercy to the Palestinians.

[Easy Drifter]

The Finnish Hamas member reappears.

[steve_spackman]

So what do the Jews want? They want to depopulate the Occupied Territories of Palestinians and resettle with Jews? That's it?! Why would Israel have nukes? Not to defend themselves but to actualise the Zionist Dream of Israel From the Nile to the Euphrates. In Gaza, they have made the world passively, complicit in the genocide. Guilt is an objective force.I feel it. Its part of the plan to demoralise the populace, as we eat rice and wait for the next nuclear shoe to drop.
It would be nice if the outrage against Israel would also be used against another country that likes to go to war, namely the USA. It has this gigantic budget problem but cheerfully spent a fortune on foreign adventures, which led to mis-adventures. Eisenhower should see the military industrial complex now. They denounce everybody else but he who sits in a glasshouse should not throw stones.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For a reason. The Allied had put Germany down so badly and humiliated them after WW I, just like Israel has put down the Palestinians badly and humiliated them. The Allied could have shown more mercy to the Germans and Israel could show more mercy to the Palestinians.

First off The Allies put Germany down because the Germans started the First World War. Israel didn't put the Palestinians down, their Arab cousins have done that and worse. Both the Pally's and Jew's were told they could partition Palestine. A few hard heads on both sides were against it but in the end, that was the plan. Israel claims their bits and the Arab nations attack, telling the Palestinians to come along...we will have great fun, kill lots of Jews and get it ALL. THat didn't happen in 48, 57, 67 or 73. Every time the Arab's fought Israel, they gave up more turf..most of it that was more belong to the Palestinians than any other Arab nation. Egypt and Jordan have since made peace and have no real issues with Israel. It isn't tough to figure out who the losers have been. Just they have been pawns in the greater game.

The Humiliation the Palestinians isn't because the Israeli's are doing it...it is self inflicted. Millions and billions were given to build Palestinian infrastructure. Last time I looked, they were not living in tents eating rocks. If their economy isn't working, tell me how buying rockets and lobbing at the Israeli's and strapping bombs to mentally challenged kids is improving the lot of the man on the street in Gaza?

The Jews in Germany on the other hand were in death camps getting 500 calories a day. Big difference but of course you can ignore that Eki...you usually do.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So what do the Jews want? They want to depopulate the Occupied Territories of Palestinians and resettle with Jews? That's it?! Why would Israel have nukes? Not to defend themselves but to actualise the Zionist Dream of Israel From the Nile to the Euphrates. In Gaza, they have made the world passively, complicit in the genocide. Guilt is an objective force.I feel it. Its part of the plan to demoralise the populace, as we eat rice and wait for the next nuclear shoe to drop.
It would be nice if the outrage against Israel would also be used against another country that likes to go to war, namely the USA. It has this gigantic budget problem but cheerfully spent a fortune on foreign adventures, which led to mis-adventures. Eisenhower should see the military industrial complex now. They denounce everybody else but he who sits in a glasshouse should not throw stones.

Steve...you have to quit reading the Articles of Zion....

They have Nukes because they know damned well it is the one thing the Arab's don't have and since they are outnumbered 7million vs over 200 million in the area...well does the story of Custer have any meaning to ya?

Show me the genocide Steve. There isn't any death camps in Palestine. If the Israeli's wanted the Palestinians dead...they would be gone.

As for the Yanks and their military industrial complex, you have a point...but everyone is equally critical of the US (look back in history how they stayed out of both world wars until being dragged in) for staying out. They cant win for trying.

That said...if Arabs were held to the same standard you want to hold Israel and the Yanks to Steve, you wouldn't have to look to hard to find worse human rights violations and crimes. The Arab world is full of death, war and terror...and religious persecution on a scale that makes this bunfight in Gaza look like a tea party. You choose NOT to look there and that is sad Steve...you are smarter than that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The only thing I will agree with you Steve is they shouldn't have populated the Occupied parts of Palestine. That said...the policy came out of the fact the Israeli's shed blood in a war they didn't start to get that turf. They felt they may not have to give it back. They did as an article of good faith to get peace if I remember..or at least Gaza and parts of the West Bank. Look what that got them...more rockets and hard love.

Oh Israel you have made mistakes....breathing is one of them apparently....

[Eki]

Israel didn't put the Palestinians down, their Arab cousins have done that and worse.
How? I don't see Hamas launching rockets on their Arab cousins, so obviously there are no hard feelings.

[Hondo]

How? I don't see Hamas launching rockets on their Arab cousins, so obviously there are no hard feelings.

The world won't get upset if arabs stomp them into a mudhole, only if non-arabs do it.

[Eki]

The world won't get upset if arabs stomp them into a mudhole, only if non-arabs do it.

The world isn't firing rockets on Israel, Hamas is.

[Easy Drifter]

Holy Smoke! Eki admits Hamas is attacking Israel! Has the light finally penetrated?
Might he even agree that the Hamas rockets were fired at civilian targets?
Nah. That is too much to hope for.

Is there any chance that Eki might, just might, accept that Israel has the right to fight back in a way that hopefully will stop these attacks?
I very much doubt it since he has stated Israel has no right to exist.

[Daniel]

Holy Smoke! Eki admits Hamas is attacking Israel! Has the light finally penetrated?
Might he even agree that the Hamas rockets were fired at civilian targets?
Nah. That is too much to hope for.

Is there any chance that Eki might, just might, accept that Israel has the right to fight back in a way that hopefully will stop these attacks?
I very much doubt it since he has stated Israel has no right to exist.

It annoys me that you Al Qaeda types are allowed to post on here......

[Easy Drifter]

Daniel:
The English translation of our clan motto is "No one treads upon me with impunity"

The family crest is 'A mailed fist emerging from a cloud of smoke grasping the Royal Thistle of Scotland.'

The original motto is in Gaelic, which I neither speak or write.
I very rarely wear my signet ring as I do not place my seal on too many documents today. :D

[ioan]

The world isn't firing rockets on Israel, Hamas is.

I would be worried if the world would be so stupid like the extremists you are protecting! :rolleyes:

[steve_spackman]

I would be worried if the world would be so stupid like the extremists you are protecting! :rolleyes:

im thinking you dont like his views or my views..thats great and it seems you cant respect that.

oh well move along little boy

[ioan]

im thinking you dont like his views or my views..thats great and it seems you cant respect that.

oh well move along little boy


You talk about respect?! What a joke!

[steve_spackman]

You talk about respect?! What a joke!

im not too sure what point your trying to make, by suddenly coming on here having a go at me?

and also not too sure what i have said to you to get these kind of remarks from you?

[Daniel]

Daniel:
The English translation of our clan motto is "No one treads upon me with impunity"

The family crest is 'A mailed fist emerging from a cloud of smoke grasping the Royal Thistle of Scotland.'

The original motto is in Gaelic, which I neither speak or write.
I very rarely wear my signet ring as I do not place my seal on too many documents today. :D

I thought your motto was "If you can't come up with a reasonable argument then make out that the other person is a terrorist supporter or something"? In latin of course :)

[Easy Drifter]

If you would go back and read the whole thread you would see that Eki has stated that he believes Israel has not right to exist. He has never denied he said that.
Eki is also very adept at never answering a direct point blank question as are several others on this forum. If the shoe (or glove) fits so be it.

[Eki]

If you would go back and read the whole thread you would see that Eki has stated that he believes Israel has not right to exist. He has never denied he said that.
Eki is also very adept at never answering a direct point blank question as are several others on this forum. If the shoe (or glove) fits so be it.
How does that mean I'm a terrorist supporter? I have said Israel should never have been founded, at least not in the Middle East. If it hadn't, there wouldn't be any need for resistance (or "terrorism" if you like).

[BDunnell]

How does that mean I'm a terrorist supporter? I have said Israel should never have been founded. If it hadn't, there wouldn't be any need for resistance (or "terrorism" if you like).

Do you oppose the creation of any 'new' country, then?

Also, what evidence is there to suggest that the creation of Israel was always going to cause the sort of unrest we see today? I'm not very knowledgeable about this.

[Eki]

Do you oppose the creation of any 'new' country, then?
Only those where a large portion of the citizens of the new country comes from thousands of kilometers away. I would even oppose the creation of Canada, the US and Australia if it happened now.


Also, what evidence is there to suggest that the creation of Israel was always going to cause the sort of unrest we see today? I'm not very knowledgeable about this.
Over 60 years of violence. And it doesn't look like the Palesinians are going to give up as long as there are some of them left. It will of course end when there aren't any Palestinians left, but I'm not a big fan of genocides.

[BDunnell]

Over 60 years of violence. And it doesn't look like the Palesinians are going to give up as long as there are some of them left. It will of course end when there aren't any Palestinians left, but I'm not a big fan of genocides.

I meant at the time it was created.

[Easy Drifter]

Migration of peoples has happened throughout the history of man. South America was settled by the people (tribes) of North/Central America forcing them south. Both were settled by people crossing the Bering Sea from Russia. In more recent times the famous Plains Indian Tribe, the Soiux, were actually from the forests of Minnesota driven into the plains partially by the Iroquois and later the whites. The Iroquois (actually 5 to 6 allied tribes) wiped out the Wendat (Huron) people of this area and moved in along with the Ojibway/Chippewas.
White settlement of the Americas, Aust. and NZ developed partially from overcrowding in Europe and more modern methods of transportation.
The Finns originally came from elsewhere. I do not know my history of Northern Europe that well.
The first white settlements in North America, predating the Spanish by hundreds of years were Norse. There is proof the Norse had a settlement near Gimli, Manitoba about a 1000 AD. That is hundreds of miles from the sea.
The Jewish Tribe maintained a prescence in the middle east from before Christ to current times.
Migration continues, only in different ways. Canada has a large Ukranian heritage population in Sask. Quebec, New Brunswick and Northern Ont. are largely of French descent. Vancouver has a large Chinese population as does Toronto. In Toronto the split between white and other is almost even. There is even a Finnish population.
In my opinion your views are simplistic, even childish. On the other hand, and based on your contrary views on many subjects, you may just enjoy being a s--- disturber.

[Roamy]

How does that mean I'm a terrorist supporter? I have said Israel should never have been founded, at least not in the Middle East. If it hadn't, there wouldn't be any need for resistance (or "terrorism" if you like).

Yes Eki we could have then easily flattened the whole f____king area!!

[Roamy]

Only those where a large portion of the citizens of the new country comes from thousands of kilometers away. I would even oppose the creation of Canada, the US and Australia if it happened now.


Over 60 years of violence. And it doesn't look like the Palesinians are going to give up as long as there are some of them left. It will of course end when there aren't any Palestinians left, but I'm not a big fan of genocides.

then who in the hell would have created finland - you should be part of iceland!!

[Hondo]

Do you oppose the creation of any 'new' country, then?

Also, what evidence is there to suggest that the creation of Israel was always going to cause the sort of unrest we see today? I'm not very knowledgeable about this.

I'm not going to spend any time back checking on this right now but if memory serves me correctly, the prior research done by the British indicated there was no signifigant sense of unity or national identity in the area before they signed off on the Palestine/Israel creation thing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Only those where a large portion of the citizens of the new country comes from thousands of kilometers away. I would even oppose the creation of Canada, the US and Australia if it happened now.


Over 60 years of violence. And it doesn't look like the Palesinians are going to give up as long as there are some of them left. It will of course end when there aren't any Palestinians left, but I'm not a big fan of genocides.

First off Eki, there are more people living in Gaza and the West Bank then there were 60 years ago. So much for Genocide. The Isreali's must really suck at it.

As for your opposition of Canada, US and Australia being formed, what if I told you that you Finn's stole your country from the Lapps? Show me one indigenous group on this planet outside of maybe the Aborigines in Australia who are on land they didn't take from another group? How far are we to go back? The Celts conquered most of Ireland at one point or another so should the Gaels be upset? Heck...Germany probably owns parts of other countries they shouldn't. We wont even go into the fact that no one is happy with just the land they have in the Balkans. Norway isn't ticked at the Swedes for owning them for all those years but I am sure someone has a problem that you would feel sympathy for.

Eki...here is a clue. The native tribes spent most of their time in North America at war with each other. Look no further than the Iroquois Confederacy who fought each other in the beginning and then designed a system of government in the middle ages that was far and away more fair and advanced than those in Europe. It didn't stop them from landing on their enemy the Huron's with both feet tho. Wars and the claiming of some land mass for yourself was the way of the world until civilized times of the last 150 years. Even then we had to have two massive world wars and god knows how many small ones.

So spare me the fiction the Jews don't belong in Israel. Heck...there was Jew's there 4000 years ago. They were there and the Romans conquered them. Then the Ottomans....in short..the Palestinians are at the back of the line if you want to honest, but of course...reality and truth have little use in your mind when they don't jive with your agenda.

[Eki]

So spare me the fiction the Jews don't belong in Israel.
I didn't say the Jews don't belong in Israel, I said foreign Jews don't belong to Israel. We need a Jewish state as little as we need an Islamic state or a Christian state. I think countries based on religion or ethnicity are a bad idea.

[Eki]

As for your opposition of Canada, US and Australia being formed, what if I told you that you Finn's stole your country from the Lapps?
That's probably true, but there is still more unoccupied land in Finland than in Israel.

Finland: 5.2 million people per 304,473 sq km
Israel: 7.1 million people per 20,330 sq km

I'd still be annoyed if few million more people came to Finland within a short time of 60 years. I don't think Finland could sustain and absorb them without difficulties.

And I didn't say I oppose Canada, US and Australia, I said I'd oppose colonizing them with Europeans if it happened now.

I'd also oppose the Soviet Union conquering the Finnish Carelia in the 1939-1944 wars and replacing the Finnish population there with their own people if it happened now, but I wouldn't like to undo it now, it's too late.

[Easy Drifter]

Just as it is a little late to undo what The United Nations did 60 years ago when they created Israel.
By the way Canada accepts over 250,000 immigrants a year or 1 million every 4.
How many does Finland accept?

[Eki]

Just as it is a little late to undo what The United Nations did 60 years ago when they created Israel.
By the way Canada accepts over 250,000 immigrants a year or 1 million every 4.
How many does Finland accept?
Everyone with a citizenship in an EU-country, spouse or a ready job or a studying place here. Potentially few hundred million. I don't know about refugees, maybe few thousands. Those who are not EU-citizens, have no job/studying place, no family, no grounds for asylum, then none.

More statistics:

Finland: 5.2 million people per 304,473 sq km

Canada: 33,212,696 per 9,093,507 sq km

Per population, Finland should therefore take about 40,000 immigrants per year to get even with Canada, I think that's quite close to the number of immigrants who come to Finland every year. Almost as many Finns leave Finland every year, so the population doesn't grow much.

Per square kilometer Finland should take about 8,000, it takes more.

And we don't favour Lutheran immigrants like Israel favours Jewish immigrants.

[Easy Drifter]

Finland about 9.1 thousand in. 4.1 thousand out.
Percentage of population immigrants 2.92 ranking 102nd out of 195 countries.
Less than impressive.

[Eki]

Finland about 9.1 thousand in. 4.1 thousand out.
Percentage of population immigrants 2.92 ranking 102nd out of 195 countries.
Less than impressive.
It's not like we wouldn't accept more. But Canada has the advantage/disadvantage of speaking English as their first language. Hundreds of millions speak English either as their first or their second language, few outside Finland speak Finnish at all. That's probably one reason why that many people don't want to immigrate to Finland.

[Easy Drifter]

I wonder where the 4,000 or so that left went. The stats didn't indicate that.
You obviously are fluent in English as are several other Finnish posters on here.
Many of our imigrants are from China (largest # by percentage) and many only speak Cantonese or Mandrin.
After WW2 we had a huge influx of Italians of whom very few spoke English.
A large number of Germans also came to Canada and few spoke English. Both groups have prospered.
Now in our larger cities we have classes in public schools that teach English to the new children. We also have public night schools that teach our adult immigrants English.
Although I have known several people of Finnish extraction the only one I knew who came to NA directly was Keke Rosberg and he spoke fairly good English even then.
But he, of course, lives in Germany now.

[Tomi]

What i think is strange is that even there has been plenty of finnish hockey players doing a carreer in north america, no one seems to stay and live there after their carreer.

[Eki]

I wonder where the 4,000 or so that left went. The stats didn't indicate that.

Mainly to other European countries like Germany and Sweden, I'd imagine. Some also go work at Finnish companies in China, India and elsewhere outside Europe.

The Chinese are quite common here too. Some companies and schools even go to China to recruit new workers and students.

[Hondo]

I see bin Laden has finally turned up again. He's about 2 weeks late, but it was nice of him to drop by.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MSQVG0&show_article=1&catnum=0

Al Gore, on the other hand, hasn't been seen since winter started.

[gadjo_dilo]

Migration of peoples has happened throughout the history of man. South America was settled by the people (tribes) of North/Central America forcing them south. Both were settled by people crossing the Bering Sea from Russia. In more recent times the famous Plains Indian Tribe, the Soiux, were actually from the forests of Minnesota driven into the plains partially by the Iroquois and later the whites. The Iroquois (actually 5 to 6 allied tribes) wiped out the Wendat (Huron) people of this area and moved in along with the Ojibway/Chippewas.
White settlement of the Americas, Aust. and NZ developed partially from overcrowding in Europe and more modern methods of transportation.
The Finns originally came from elsewhere. I do not know my history of Northern Europe that well.
The first white settlements in North America, predating the Spanish by hundreds of years were Norse. There is proof the Norse had a settlement near Gimli, Manitoba about a 1000 AD. That is hundreds of miles from the sea.
The Jewish Tribe maintained a prescence in the middle east from before Christ to current times.
Migration continues, only in different ways. Canada has a large Ukranian heritage population in Sask. Quebec, New Brunswick and Northern Ont. are largely of French descent. Vancouver has a large Chinese population as does Toronto. In Toronto the split between white and other is almost even. There is even a Finnish population.
In my opinion your views are simplistic, even childish. On the other hand, and based on your contrary views on many subjects, you may just enjoy being a s--- disturber.
No offence but aren't your views on people migration ( otherwise a very natural process which I'm not going to deny ) also a bit simplistic?
Sometimes migration is associeted with violence and may be followed by things like forcing natives to leave their lands, phisical extermination, oppresive measures against natives, a total change of natives style of life. The fact that such things happened in the past and some states were created on these bases can't be used as an excuse for violent means.
In other cases, migration can be peaceful as I don't see how the chinese or ukraineans you've mentioned above could harm canadian culture and civilization. They were probably assimilated to the basic population and in a few generation they'll forget about their roots.
Maybe I'm wrong and I admit I have poor history knowledge but I think this issue should be seen taking into account different nuances.


As for your opposition of Canada, US and Australia being formed, what if I told you that you Finn's stole your country from the Lapps? Show me one indigenous group on this planet outside of maybe the Aborigines in Australia who are on land they didn't take from another group? How far are we to go back? The Celts conquered most of Ireland at one point or another so should the Gaels be upset? Heck...Germany probably owns parts of other countries they shouldn't. We wont even go into the fact that no one is happy with just the land they have in the Balkans. Norway isn't ticked at the Swedes for owning them for all those years but I am sure someone has a problem that you would feel sympathy for. .

Once again if we talk about the perenity of a population on a land I think we should take into account different nuances. Guys like Celts or Finns or Huns, etc. were migratory populations who settled down in different parts of Europe taking the land from the natives. But in other cases wars between states without a nomad population took part without an exchange of population who was temporary under a foreign jurisdiction. - and as you mentioned the Balkans I'll take the example of the Ottoman empire - some lands were part of the empire, with turkish administration but without turkish population.
And because you asked for an example of indigenious group who are still on their land they didn't take from another group I'll look back into the history of my own country and I don't think that my ancestors, the Dacians, ever left this territory. I think it's the same with indian, chinese, egyptians, to name but a few but who knows, I might be wrong....

[Easy Drifter]

Simplistic probably but there have been books written on the subject and I wasn't about to do that on this thread. I am long winded enough as it is. :)
Assimilation is definetly occurring. I wasn't being critical at all. Sorry if I came across that way.
Toronto is now described as the most cosmopolitan city in the world. There are people from almost, if not all, countries in the world. You can find restuarants specializing in every cusine immaginable.
Most nationalities tend to live in a certain area together to begin with which is natural. As time and generations grow up they spead out. Many like to retain some of their traditions and celebrations which certainly adds to the Cdn. mosaic.
Caribana in Toronto is a huge celebration of the Carribbean which attracts visitors from all over.
A little story.
A few years ago my partner and I made deliveries to Toronto a least twice a month. We both loved Dim Sum.
We discovered a Dim Sum Restuarant in NW Scarborough (part of Toronto) that is almost totally Chinese. Every store in the Plaza where the Restuarant is is Oriental owned.
This restuarant sat over 300 people and there was usually a lineup. For the first year or so we went there we were often the only whites in the place. At first there was a scramble as they brought knives and forks to our table. We didn't use them as we both were reasonably adept with chopsticks. Soon we were recognized and they knew we used chopsticks. Except for the Mgrs. none of the staff spoke any English.
A couple of years later there were more whites, blacks and south Asians eating there but still very few. Most used knives and forks and the staff brought them as a matter of course. We did get a few puzzled looks from diners who noted the staff didn't bring us cutlery. Several of the servers now could speak a little english and a couple of them fairly well. Assimilation.
Around this time we met a girl who had worked years before for me, there for lunch. We let her do the ordering as she was Chinese. One of the servers whose English was pretty good said to us laughing 'Now you come with someone who can tell you what you ordered.'
My friend said as we were leaving that it was the best Dim Sum she had had outside of Hong Kong.
Although Orillia has several Chinese Retuarants (every town in Canada has one I think) there is the only one serving Dim Sum and it is fairly good and it is new. They cannot get by on Dim Sum alone so serve other Chinese and Cdn. fare. They were surprised when we used chopsticks and the owner said we about his only white customers who did.
An Indian restuarant also opened in Orillia this year and I have yet to try it.

[Garry Walker]

so is Israel not to blame at all for anything thats happened?

Israle should be tried for war crimes, and all land that they have stolen should be handed back to the previous owner...


Israel has stolen no land.


How does that mean I'm a terrorist supporter? I have said Israel should never have been founded, at least not in the Middle East. If it hadn't, there wouldn't be any need for resistance (or "terrorism" if you like).
Heh, I see you would make great friends with these nice people
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html



How many does Finland accept?
Far too many.

[steve_spackman]

Israel has stolen no land.


Heh, I see you would make great friends with these nice people
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html


Far too many.

http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/Index.asp

[schmenke]

...So spare me the fiction the Jews don't belong in Israel. Heck...there was Jew's there 4000 years ago. They were there and the Romans conquered them. Then the Ottomans....in short..the Palestinians are at the back of the line ....

Not really. The land of "Palestine" is one of the oldest recorded geographical entities. Both Arabs and Jews have coexisted there for thousands of years.

[Eki]

They just interviewed a reprensentative of the Lutheran church and the Finnish foreign minister on TV. The church representative said the clinic was the only building that got hit in the area, and that it really seemed it was done in purpose to destroy the infrastructure helping the locals. The foreign minister said he's going to talk with the Israeli ambassador on Wednesday and see if other consequences will be necessary.
Israel refused to pay for the damage. I think Finland should end diplomatic relationships and trade with Israel until they pay.

[gadjo_dilo]

Israel refused to pay for the damage. I think Finland should end diplomatic relationships and trade with Israel until they pay.
How and what can they pay?

[Daniel]

Israel refused to pay for the damage. I think Finland should end diplomatic relationships and trade with Israel until they stop being a bunch of knobs.

Fixed your post :)

[Daniel]

How and what can they pay?

We have this stuff called money which can be exchanged for goods and services. Money can be physically exchanged or can be transferred from one account to another.

Hope this helps :)

[gadjo_dilo]

We have this stuff called money which can be exchanged for goods and services. Money can be physically exchanged or can be transferred from one account to another.

Hope this helps :)
Yeah, it helps me a lot...Makes me understand that any country with enough financial power may play with humans destinies if their muscles want so.
Silly me, thinking of some moral aspects....

[Hondo]

Moral aspects are only for us at the bottom of the food chain. From mid-management on up, the "Big Picture and Bottom Line" become your new morality.

[Eki]

Now Israel has shelled the head quarter of a UN relief agency:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm


The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.

[Hondo]

Oops.

[Hondo]

If it was up to me, Eki, I'd let both sides go at it until they were reduced to throwing rocks at each other. Maybe, just maybe both sides would look around them and decide if this is really the life they want. if it is, then by all means wipe each other out and be done with it.

Being in a war zone obviously carries risk with it. That doesn't excuse hitting the UN, that's just the way it works. They have also hit their own troops.

I don't look for any kind of ceasefire before the Exalted Transparent One takes office. Neither side, or anybody else, knows who he is going to back, so there's no point in giving up before you have to.

Sometimes I think these things get started to make a point, knowing that the world will jump in and break it up before it gets out of hand. When you get down to it, who in the world needs Israel or Palestine. Let them wipe each other out, thats what they claim they want.

[Roamy]

Now Israel has shelled the head quarter of a UN relief agency:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm

Good - the UN is worthless.

[Roamy]

basically as I see it - the worthless un needs to give the pales the west bank - give gaza to israel and make a country called palestine out of the west bank and be done with this sh!t

[BDunnell]

Good - the UN is worthless.

So therefore the aid it provides and those working for it are also worthless?

[Roamy]

So therefore the aid it provides and those working for it are also worthless?

yes the whole freaking program is worthless. Has no teeth, respect, integrity need I go on!!!

[Hondo]

So therefore the aid it provides and those working for it are also worthless?

Although your question wasn't directed to me, I'd like to jump in with my own opinion, if you don't mind.

I think the UN has been beneficial in many circumstances and has done alot of good in the world and should continue to do so. However, it must also be accepted that the UN is not and cannot be a cure-all for every situation and shouldn't be expected to cure everything.

In situations like this one, there's not much anybody can do until the principals involved decide to resolve it.

I doubt anybody in Gaza that got an aid package from the UN thinks they are worthless,

[BDunnell]

Although your question wasn't directed to me, I'd like to jump in with my own opinion, if you don't mind.

I think the UN has been beneficial in many circumstances and has done alot of good in the world and should continue to do so. However, it must also be accepted that the UN is not and cannot be a cure-all for every situation and shouldn't be expected to cure everything.

In situations like this one, there's not much anybody can do until the principals involved decide to resolve it.

I doubt anybody in Gaza that got an aid package from the UN thinks they are worthless,

I agree with all of that. I was wondering whether fousto felt that injuring UN personnel and damaging its property is somehow acceptable given that the organisation is, in his view, worthless.

[BDunnell]

yes the whole freaking program is worthless. Has no teeth, respect, integrity need I go on!!!

What aid would you provide, then, and how?

[Camelopard]

Now Israel has shelled the head quarter of a UN relief agency:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm

Eki I would have thought that by now you would have realised that israel and the idf in particular are a law unto themselves and answerable to no-one.

For heavens sake even the US government has covered up muderous acts commited by the idf against US military personnel.

http://www.ussliberty.org/reese.htm

[Hondo]

Eki I would have thought that by now you would have realised that israel and the idf in particular are a law unto themselves and answerable to no-one.

For heavens sake even the US government has covered up muderous acts commited by the idf against US military personnel.

http://www.ussliberty.org/reese.htm

I doubt the young remember, are aware of, or care about the Liberty Incident, and the majority of Americans that do remember it have put it behind us and moved on.

[Camelopard]

I doubt the young remember, are aware of, or care about the Liberty Incident, and the majority of Americans that do remember it have put it behind us and moved on.

Well to be quite honest I think the young should know about it, things like this shouldn't be forgotten and covered up, after all we are being constantly reminded of what the Germans did 70 odd years ago. It's just another example of 'one rule for israel' and another rule for the rest of us.

When do things stop being relevant, why is 911 still relevant, it happened over 7 years ago?

[Roamy]

I agree with all of that. I was wondering whether fousto felt that injuring UN personnel and damaging its property is somehow acceptable given that the organisation is, in his view, worthless.

This is WAR - That means that people are going to get killed and sh!t is going to get blown up. The UN has no business sitting there in the middle of it. If you want to provide aid then provide it so you don't get killed in the process. this is just another example of how inept the UN is. Do you have any idea how small Gaza is??? Drop the sh!t on the beach and high tail it. you don't need a Walmart downtown.

While I am at it.
1. If the UN had any balls they would have went into Iraq.
2. In the case of Mugabe - he cut off and burned the legs of the other candidates wife.
3. They did nothing when Russia invaded Georgia
4. They sit around passing worthless resolutions that no one seems to care about.
5. They are doing nothing about Iran getting a nuke which will lead to a very substantial war.

Give me a break with this UN crap

[Hondo]

Well to be quite honest I think the young should know about it, things like this shouldn't be forgotten and covered up, after all we are being constantly reminded of what the Germans did 70 odd years ago. It's just another example of 'one rule for israel' and another rule for the rest of us.

The double standard doesn't only apply to Israel, and even as an American, the USS Liberty pales in the face of what Hitler managed to do or even what we and the Brits did to Dresden, etc. Talk to the average black person in America and you'd think slavery just ended last week. But, if that's all you've got to justify your position then that's what you use.

[Tomi]

Well to be quite honest I think the young should know about it, things like this shouldn't be forgotten and covered up, after all we are being constantly reminded of what the Germans did 70 odd years ago. It's just another example of 'one rule for israel' and another rule for the rest of us.

When do things stop being relevant, why is 911 still relevant, it happened over 7 years ago?

I think 911 was a joke compaired to what happens in Palestina now, it's a government leading the Gaza massacre, 911 was just a few pissed off saudis, no government was behind that.

[Hondo]

Well to be quite honest I think the young should know about it, things like this shouldn't be forgotten and covered up, after all we are being constantly reminded of what the Germans did 70 odd years ago. It's just another example of 'one rule for israel' and another rule for the rest of us.

When do things stop being relevant, why is 911 still relevant, it happened over 7 years ago?

You must have edited this and added the last line after I quoted you.

For some Americans, 911 will remain relevant until the day they take their last breath, just like Pearl Harbor. It will remain relevant to the government as long as they can continue to reap approval for themselves and their actions, through it's memory.

There are people on here and in the world that are fond of proclaiming that everytime the US does this and Israel does that, all we are doing is creating new enemies. Well, they need to be reminded that this is also a 2 way street and every silly-a$$ed little stunt that those operating under the pretense of Jihad pull off, creates more people willing to hunt them to ground.

[Eki]

yes the whole freaking program is worthless. Has no teeth, respect, integrity need I go on!!!
The US is also quite useless and has no respect or integrity, especially after Bush. Bush was like the boy who cried "wolf". After Iraq, nobody takes talk about the "axis of evil" seriously

[Hondo]

The US is also quite useless and has no respect or integrity, especially after Bush. Bush was like the boy who cried "wolf". After Iraq, nobody takes talk about the "axis of evil" seriously

You gonna stop whupping on the US when Bush goes and give the Exalted Transparent One some breathing room?

[steve_spackman]

The US is also quite useless and has no respect or integrity, especially after Bush. Bush was like the boy who cried "wolf". After Iraq, nobody takes talk about the "axis of evil" seriously

how does a country get on the 'axis of evil' list...

If its a country that is a sponsor of terror, then im thinking the US should be on that list.

[steve_spackman]

You gonna stop whupping on the US when Bush goes and give the Exalted Transparent One some breathing room?

to be honest mate im sure the US will be better off when Bush leaves office.