Is anyone listening?

[Rex Monaco]

The following quotes can be found here:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/the_way_archive.html

Dan Gurney:
"The freedom to be creative is what I liked so much about the sport and it's just been wrung out of it by the bureaucrats."

Parnelli Jones:
"We need to be entertaining, but how do you get there? You're not going to get there with one manufacturer supplying the same thing to everybody because there's no entertainment value and there's nothing for you writers to write about!"

Carl Haas:
"There is a fan base, but they want to see new things on the cars. That's one of the things they like about this type of racing. I hear it from the fans all the time. They don't like this move to spec cars, trying to make it look like NASCAR. They want to see new and different things."

Mario Andretti:
"The scenario you want is to have manufacturers come to you and ask if they can participate."

Bobby Rahal:
"If racing is purely for entertainment then it doesn't really matter. But racing has never been purely for entertainment. It's been about technology and developing leading edge thinking."

[Wilf]

The following quotes can be found here:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/the_way_archive.html

Dan Gurney:
"The freedom to be creative is what I liked so much about the sport and it's just been wrung out of it by the bureaucrats."

Parnelli Jones:
"We need to be entertaining, but how do you get there? You're not going to get there with one manufacturer supplying the same thing to everybody because there's no entertainment value and there's nothing for you writers to write about!"

Carl Haas:
"There is a fan base, but they want to see new things on the cars. That's one of the things they like about this type of racing. I hear it from the fans all the time. They don't like this move to spec cars, trying to make it look like NASCAR. They want to see new and different things."

Mario Andretti:
"The scenario you want is to have manufacturers come to you and ask if they can participate."

Bobby Rahal:
"If racing is purely for entertainment then it doesn't really matter. But racing has never been purely for entertainment. It's been about technology and developing leading edge thinking."

Rex - I don't think you will find many on this or any other forum who would disagree with you and all of your quoted sources. However, the following are quotes from one day's Wall Street Journal:

So What Do You Have To Do For a Loan?

Car Makers' Problems Still Urgent

Trade Finance Woes Worsen Slump

Paulson Wants Rest of TARP Funds

From Taiwan, a Tech Warning

S&P Lowers Ratings of 11 Banks

Stopping Foreclosure on a Business

Venture Capital Hits a Cash-Call Crunch

It all comes down to money and until the teams get quality sponsors there isn't enough money to do what you and others are suggesting. Sure, Roger Penske probably could do what you suggest along with Chip and Michael. So, if you think you would be happy with 10 to 12 car fields, great, let's do it. Otherwise, let's hold down cost, build some capital, have full fields, and plan for a better tomorrow when we can do what you want.

[MDS]

I think there is a difference between several influential people stating what they would like to see happen and the reality. I don't think anyone is saying "If this doesn't happen the league is going to die." I also don't think anyone honestly believes the league wouldn't like to be moving that way.

While I don't understand Dalara being the exclusive chassis provider I have to believe the league is heading to a place where there is multiple manufacturers with a more open rulebook and multiple chassis providers. But there is the realistic outlook of the next two to three years.

If the league can show decent demos with current package I have to believe Tony George and crew are smart enough to give the fans what they want in the long run.

[Birdman5700]

Does anyone know how long Dallara will have exclusive rights to the IRL? Could another makers develope a car for the 2012 season?

[Mad_Hatter]

I still cannot fully understand why small-time engine shops are not allowed to compete in some capacity, especially now with the auto makers looking to trim budgets. Jag_Warrior seems to be a business-minded person, maybe he(I think) can weigh in. With Honda wanting any competition Cosworth or Judd or someone would surely keep them from having to find said competition in Sportscars, right? Does the investment required to do some R&D outweigh the return from beating a lowly engine shop? Or is it that they want competition with Audi or Toyota or Porsche?

[indycool]

What Wilf said.

NASCAR threw 700 race cars worth millions of dollars down the drain with the Car of Tomorrow and now has teams struggling to stay on the grid. Reports are out that around 1,000 team members are out of jobs as the belt-tightening occurs down south. F1 is looking at a spec engine to cut costs. The DP-01 was an expense that helped lead CCWS to financial failure.

As far as Parnelli's quote goes about "nothing for the writers to write about," I think they might manage to find Scott Dixon and Danica Patrick and Dario Franchitti, etc., worthwhile to put in the paper.

Those who seem to need a perfect world are going to be sadly disappointed.

[SarahFan]

Those who seem to need a perfect world are going to be sadly disappointed.

huge difference between needing a perfect world and accepting/trumpeting/advocating/campiagning for mediocrity

[Rex Monaco]

Otherwise, let's hold down cost, build some capital, have full fields, and plan for a better tomorrow when we can do what you want.

The IRL has been trying to hold costs down for 12 years. And for that effort, what we have today is a Honda spec racing series.

If all the cars were equal and only cost a dollar, then the teams with the big budgets would hire the best drivers, leaving teams with small budgets to hire lesser drivers. And so the battle of the big budgets would just shift from the cars to the drivers as teams continue to look for an edge.

So maybe 'cost control' measures should be targeted towards sponsorship and not towards car specs. Allow only 1 main sponsor for a maximum of x dollars per year with 4 secondary sponsors at x dollars. Then the team can choose if the engineer or the driver is more important.

However you do it, this economic crisis will pass. Businesses (and racing series) can't stop planning for the future just because of the current situation.

[Rex Monaco]

huge difference between needing a perfect world and accepting/trumpeting/advocating/campiagning for mediocrity

Exactly. It's much better to trumpet/advocate/campaign for perfection and fall short, than to accept mediocrity and fall short.

[Rex Monaco]

NASCAR threw 700 race cars worth millions of dollars down the drain with the Car of Tomorrow and now has teams struggling to stay on the grid. Reports are out that around 1,000 team members are out of jobs as the belt-tightening occurs down south. F1 is looking at a spec engine to cut costs. The DP-01 was an expense that helped lead CCWS to financial failure.

And the IRL adopted it's own formula, which made 100's of race cars obsolete, prevented outside teams from entering the Indy 500 and lead directly to the creation what we have today, which is a Honda spec series.

So there is no disagreement from me that continuity of the rules is the key to making a series successful. But once you've screwed up, you need fix it ASAP.

And there appears to be no disagreement in the racing community that todays situation is less than desirable.

[indycool]

Nope. No disagreement with you and the others who disagree.

And so you don't rewrite history, teams were NEVER prevented from entering Indy. In 1996, Indy continued rules from the year before, so all CART teams had to do was dust off their '05 stuff and run. Galles and Walker did. The rules were changed the following year. CART changed ITS rules to prohibit the '95 cars to run in '96.

[anthonyvop]

I still cannot fully understand why small-time engine shops are not allowed to compete in some capacity, especially now with the auto makers looking to trim budgets. Jag_Warrior seems to be a business-minded person, maybe he(I think) can weigh in. With Honda wanting any competition Cosworth or Judd or someone would surely keep them from having to find said competition in Sportscars, right? Does the investment required to do some R&D outweigh the return from beating a lowly engine shop? Or is it that they want competition with Audi or Toyota or Porsche?

Cost.

[Rex Monaco]

And so you don't rewrite history, teams were NEVER prevented from entering Indy.

When the IRL changed it's engine rule and chassis rule, it created an additional cost for all CART teams that wanted to run at Indy.

This was done despite the attempt by CART at the time to come up with a common engine formula. And this decision has contributed directly to todays lack of diversity.

[Rex Monaco]

Cost.

Cost is not the issue. The rules prevent it. If Roush made an engine, he'd have to agree to provide enough engines for everyone in the field.

[garyshell]

Cost is not the issue. The rules prevent it. If Roush made an engine, he'd have to agree to provide enough engines for everyone in the field.

But why is that rule in place? An attempt to control cost, by preventing one engine manufacturer from supplying only one team, which in turn would lead to other teams needing to match the R&D efforts etc. etc.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

But why is that rule in place? An attempt to control cost, by preventing one engine manufacturer from supplying only one team, which in turn would lead to other teams needing to match the R&D efforts etc. etc.

Gary

And how did this rule that is supposed to contain R&D costs actually work this year?

Ganassi, AGR, Penske and Rahal who are said to have the largest budgets, also had 4 of the top 5 and 7 of the top 10 cars.

So the same teams are still spending more money than their competitors year after year, and as long as they continue to be successful in landing the sponsors that won't change no matter how much you cheapen it.

[garyshell]

And how did this rule that is supposed to contain R&D costs actually work this year?

Ganassi, AGR, Penske and Rahal who are said to have the largest budgets, also had 4 of the top 5 and 7 of the top 10 cars.

So the same teams are still spending more money than their competitors year after year, and as long as they continue to be successful in landing the sponsors that won't change no matter how much you cheapen it.

Do you think that rescinding the engine supply rule would NOT result in escalating costs? I am not sure how it could not.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

History is history. Mistakes were made. I think most agree. No point in rehashing them over and over.
Now, with this economic climate is not the time to make any changes that even might increase costs.Many teams are struggling to just keep the doors open.
Sure new cars and multiple engines would be nice but until economic times improve forget it.
We the fans may not be happy but the bottom line has to rule at this point in time.
We have to live with what we have.

[chuck34]

Do you think that rescinding the engine supply rule would NOT result in escalating costs? I am not sure how it could not.

Gary

I could be wrong as I don't know the exact numbers, but I think that costs were lower before "engine leasing" came to the IRL. Back at the start and until like '02 (whenever Honda/Toyota came in). You had Chevy and Infinity engines. A builder would buy parts from these two makes and build their own engines. Some teams would make their own (Menards), but most would buy from an outside vendor (Speedway Engines). I didn't hear too many people complaining about costs back then. Is there room to exploit this system? You bettcha! But does that make for more interest? You bettcha! Is that the American way? You bettcha!

[pits4me]

... The DP-01 was an expense that helped lead CCWS to financial failure.


It was also an investment in the future that many owners agreed was the right direction to go. We can all agree US based OW was in dire need of an equipment facelift. Now we're back to the ugly Dallara's.

[Rex Monaco]

Do you think that rescinding the engine supply rule would NOT result in escalating costs? I am not sure how it could not.

Gary

Not anytime soon. There are no manufacturers that are prepared to spend big to win right now. So this would be the perfect time to crack that door open for engineering firms and engine builders to participate.

[indycool]

"Investment in the future" -- Ohhhhhhhhhhh-KKKAY!

[Rex Monaco]

"Investment in the future" -- Ohhhhhhhhhhh-KKKAY!

That gives me an idea. Wouldn't it be cool if Mary Kay sponsored Danica Patrick driving a Mary Kay pink car?

[CCWS77]

And there appears to be no disagreement in the racing community that todays situation is less than desirable.Right, and I need to play devils advoacate here because there is a partial groupthink in that racing community and many blame the wrong reasons as to why we got here. It is totally illogical that when a race series continually tries and fails to have ever greater manufacturer competition and the end result is chaos and economic failure, this should be derided as a failure of a SPEC series. how about some logical cause and effect instead of spouting preconcieved notions? That is not a SPEC series in principle at all, but the failure and degeneration of a manufacturer series into having only 1 manufacturer.



The IRL has been trying to hold costs down for 12 years. And for that effort, what we have today is a Honda spec racing series.


I disagree in every possible way with this assesment. The reason for the IRL's formulas was in order to differentiate itself and to isolate and kill CART. Cost containment had nothing to do with it or else it would have gone with the identical formula as CART. The IRL has done everything possible to attract every manufacturer it could. It is still trying. That is not a SPEC philosophy. It is a failed manufacturer based philosophy.



And the IRL adopted it's own formula, which made 100's of race cars obsolete, prevented outside teams from entering the Indy 500 and lead directly to the creation what we have today, which is a Honda spec series.


and it had nothing to do with cost containment or in good principle creating a SPEC series. These were the political machinations common in series when fighting to attract or appease manufacturers, which in this case drove manufacturers away. (whoops! lol) Again, don't blame if the IRL became a defacto single make on some descision to go SPEC. It was a result of the politics in the manufacturer driven mindset.

Now that manufacturer competition series are all in dire straights, lets declare that the cause of the problem is that they are moving to become SPEC and we need to redouble and retry to have manufacturer competition. They say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. :rolleyes:


Is there room to exploit this system? You bettcha! But does that make for more interest? You bettcha! Is that the American way? You bettcha!

I disagree it is the American way to use patronage, bribery and cronynism or backroom deals to adjust the rules of competition to attract, appease or favor certain parties instead of spending all your resources on winning within the set fixed rules. Meritocracy is what set the US apart and above from the old world. As that disapears, so to does American supremacy.


CART changed ITS rules to prohibit the '95 cars to run in '96.

Wait a second, the IRL came into existence by utilizing the old CART equipment. It sounds like nonsense doubletalk to try and claim the only reason CART was changeing its formula was as a reaction to the IRL. There would have been no old equipment for the IRL to buy and get started with then. If you want to complain one side wasn't being open and the IRL was based off CART equipment, then why couldnt you run the new CART car in the IRL and the 500? We all know why, because the IRL was specifically trying to exclude teams that ran in CART from doing both. That is the overriding feature of all of the IRL's technical formulas and why we are here with the newestcar formula of either the IRL or CC having not run at all in 2008.

[indycool]

Sorry, CCWS, but that's revisionist history. CART changed its schedule to dissuade its teams from going to Disney World and Phoenix and Indy. Its teams had the cars and engines in '96 from '95. All the teams had to do was roll 'em out. Galles and Walker did at Indy and Galles finished second with Davy Jones behind Buddy Lazier.

[Mad_Hatter]

Not anytime soon. There are no manufacturers that are prepared to spend big to win right now. So this would be the perfect time to crack that door open for engineering firms and engine builders to participate.

That's all I'm trying to say. That is the only way for diversity in this economy.
Cap the prices and the companies won't spend more than they can afford. Maybe I haven't looked at the big picture.

[Rex Monaco]

The reason for the IRL's formulas was in order to differentiate itself and to isolate and kill CART. Cost containment had nothing to do with it or else it would have gone with the identical formula as CART.

No argument from me.

But now that the IRL find's itself in this wholly self-inflicted situation, it's time to find ways in which the series can pick itself up out of the rubble and rebuild.

Or we can just blame the economy and the need to control costs and accept business as usual while we wait for a successor to rise from it's ashes in 2014.

[Rex Monaco]

Sorry, CCWS, but that's revisionist history. CART changed its schedule to dissuade its teams from going to Disney World and Phoenix and Indy. Its teams had the cars and engines in '96 from '95. All the teams had to do was roll 'em out. Galles and Walker did at Indy and Galles finished second with Davy Jones behind Buddy Lazier.

We can reargue for the millionth time all the attempts that were made by the IRL to crush CART and CART's poor reaction to those those attempts.

But it was the change in 1997 to a new car for the IRL and the refusal of the IRL to even consider adopting common specs with CART, that has helped to create the situation we are in today.

[indycool]

...and CART could've issued common specs with the IRL.

[SarahFan]

that's revisionist history. .

in 1994 when Tony announced he had a vision and was going to establish his own racing league with the I500 as it's foundation AOWR was the most diverse challenge in motorsports that attracted 4 MAJOR manufactures, 3 chassis builders, world champion driving talent and it's teams were attracting major sponsorships while it's drivers were being paid in the millions.... it was strong enough to survive for a dozen years WITHOUT the I500

you can interpret and/or rewrite history however you see fit.....rewrite however it sits better with you personnally......... lockouts and Boycotts are simply a byproduct of the split created by Tony George

today AOWR has one Manufacture who does no engine developement, a single chassis... it's top drivers all have/had F1 aspirations...... and it's major teams are struggling to find sponsorships.... ride buying is the norm rather than the exception.....Title sponsorship had been a decade long search....and it's new television presence is third tier

Today EVEN WITH the I500 as it's foundation the new league created by TG is a money losing prospect that (by Tony's own admission) won't be around in 2013 if something doesn't change...


now make no mistake..... I love AOWR.....I still have my favorite racers, and those I root against.... I can turn on the tube 17 sundays a year a respect and cheer for the racers of the sport I love..... every start and restart I still hold my breath.... at every checker I still applaud the winner....

Make no Mistake... On 17 sundays a year I am a fan...

but anyone who looks at the past 14 years and doesn't recognize it for what it is or what it has become from a Biz standpoint is delusional.....and anyone who doesn't level at a min some responsibility at the feet of the one who created the split is simply an apologist

sure the IRL isn't likely to implode like the end of CC ..... but the IRL has been a continual slow slide in the wrong direction since it's inception...

Bringing F1 and Building pagodas and intalling SAFER have nothing to do with being the steward of AOWR... a position TG decided for himself that he in fact was the 'man for the job'...

well here we are.....IMO Tony has proven he isn't the guy for the Job...and the sidepods and the TV ratings support that opinion

it's time for change.... either in the mentality of the leadership or in the leadership itself

[indycool]

Starter told me not to and if I did, it'd be way too long. But it takes two to tango.

[Rex Monaco]

...and CART could've issued common specs with the IRL.

The IRL had showed no intention of working with CART. So only a fool would have adopted the IRL specs in the hope that TG would suddenly welcome them with open arms.

[Rex Monaco]

But it takes two to tango.

And yet one person takes the lead and the other follows that lead.

[indycool]

Oh.

[SarahFan]

. But it takes two to tango.

exactly.....

problem is Tony wanted to dance alone

[downtowndeco]

Some of you guys need to give it a rest already. Your bitterness is showing. It's over. It's been over for a long, long time now.

Happy Holidays to all.

[Easy Drifter]

You beat me to it downtowndeco. Most threads seem to develop into this blame game.
It no longer matters who was right or wrong. It is over and done.
We just have to hope what we have will become better because it is all we have. In the current economic climate I hope that there are no major rule changes including new cars. Yes, I would love to see new cars and diversity but that costs big money and right now most teams are struggling to just stay afloat. We all have to face reality.
Maybe we will end up in a few years time with the USAC new Gold Crown cars. Now that is UGLY.

[Rex Monaco]

Most threads seem to develop into this blame game.

And it always seems to starts with, it was CART and/or CC that...

You'd think they could get over their bitterness from that era and focus on todays problems.

[indycool]

Look who's first to respond.

[Rex Monaco]

Look who's first to respond.

Well someone needs to correct your revisionist history.

[indycool]

For the second time: Oh.

[SarahFan]

Look who's first to respond.

your the one who brought up CART/CC .....posts #6 and #11


you seem to want to give Tg and the IRL of 2009 a pass because of you interpretation of history from 15 or so years ago...