WRC goes Super 2000!

[bt52b]

The FIA is expected to announce that the future of the World Rally Car will be based on Super 2000 machinery alone

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72436

Looks like the Production/S2000 +Kit is dead and buried. This will make it easier manage the rules, since everyone will using the same platform.

[Tomi]

Nothing new actually, it says based on S2000 not that it is an S2000 the way the car is today.

[OldF]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72436

Looks like the Production/S2000 +Kit is dead and buried. This will make it easier manage the rules, since everyone will using the same platform.

By this article N4+ is buried, not S2000+.

[Abarth]

Yiiiiiiiiiihaaaaaaaaa !!!!

Abarth will do WRC again !

And common sense prevailed !

And I agree, S2000+ might come later.

[Tomi]

By this article N4+ is buried, not S2000+.

Was the N4+ ever in consideration? I think the changes for the GrN car was for the lower class so that they are even with S2000.

[Mirek]

Yes, it was because of Subaru and Mitsubishi based pressure on FIA.

[Tomi]

]Yes, it was because of Subaru and Mitsubishi based pressure on FIA.

Ahaa thats news to me, but I know they want weight off the GrN car and simular brakes they have in S2000, that would be good for privateers so they still could get relatively cheep cars in PWRC.

[Mirek]

I understand that Autosport article that such gr.N based WRC cars are burried now.

But I heared about some gr. N rulle changes as better brake cooling, new turbo homologation and intercooler water spray mounting possibility even without having it on production model...

[MikeD]

If the WMSC ends up with a pure S2000 solution without the posibility for adding the S2000+ kit, do we know if Ford and/or Citroën are willing to accept that?

[bt52b]

Only about 24hrs to find out what the WMSC decides. Thats if they decide finally....

[Tomi]

If the WMSC ends up with a pure S2000 solution without the posibility for adding the S2000+ kit, do we know if Ford and/or Citroën are willing to accept that?

I hope they wont do that, I remember when GrB was banned, world level rally looked quite amusing for a long time, except on national level.

[OldF]

]But I heared about some gr. N rulle changes as better brake cooling, new turbo homologation and intercooler water spray mounting possibility even without having it on production model...


http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx

7.2.5) Water spray system on the intercooler
It will be possible to use the system homologated in group N Option Variant.

7.2.6) Turbocharger
It will be possible to use the turbocharger homologated in group N Option Variant.

7.5.3) Cooling of the brakes
It will be possible to use brake cooling ducts homologated as a group N Option Variant

[Sulland]

If this will be the decision from FIA tomorrow, what is most likely to happen ?

Which of the current manufacturers will pull out: Ford, Citroen, Suzuki or Subaru ?

Will more manufacturers build S2000 cars to be ready in 2010 ?

Will manufacturers that already have cars, buildt locally, or by a tuningfirm buy the rights to those cars to get a head start ?

Like;
Polo
MG
Auris
Satria
Corsa
Fiesta

Interesting times ahead !

[Mirek]

OldF: Thanks.

[Barreis]

Thanks God!!! Mr. Quesnel doesn't have to cry anymore 'cos now he's boss of Peugeot. They knew that it'll be this way... Peugeot is IRC champ...

[RS]

Some of you guys are reading the article wrong.

It says that WRC will be S2000 based (ie. S2000 + kit) The printed magazine article today says this kit should cost around £25,000 and include turbo, rear wing, gear shift mechanism and some "other bits".

The only thing missing is Grp N based WRCars, which in my opinion is a good thing. You can't have two sets of rules just to please Subaru.

[Sulland]

I do not think we are reading it wrong, since it is not mentioning S2000+ with a word, so can anyone get the printet version scanned and posted please ?

But I can see where you are coming from, if the words "based on" are key in the article !
:fasttalk:

[RS]

I do not think we are reading it wrong, since it is not mentioning S2000+ with a word, so can anyone get the printet version scanned and posted please ?

But I can see where you are coming from, if the words "based on" are key in the article !
:fasttalk:

Ahh, I re-read it, you are correct.

I don't have it with me, but I promise the printed article mentions the turbo kit :)

[Mirek]

RS: It is impossible to have working engine by simple fitting of turbo on S2000 unit. That is nonsense. At least S2000 engine has compression ratio of 12-13:1 which is way too much for turbo engine.

[Barreis]

Finally they think about sport and not to please old manufacturers!

[RS]

]RS: It is impossible to have working engine by simple fitting of turbo on S2000 unit. That is nonsense. At least S2000 engine has compression ratio of 12-13:1 which is way too much for turbo engine.

Yes, I guess this is covered by the "other bits"

I am just reporting what is said in Autosport magazine, same publishers as Autosport.com.

[alexlake]

as someone who only goes to wrc events and loves the cars, but doesnt follow the `background` of the wrc what does this all mean? how will they change, because I just love the sound and look of the cars as they are!

[MJW]

well as for the sound these new cars will probably be better. Of the current lot the C4 sounds awesome, the Subaru is OK, and the Focus is like Barry Manilow!! absolutely awfull sound, in my opinion.

[Tomi]

and the Focus is like Barry Manilow!!

Lol, outstanding post :)

[alexlake]

Of the current lot the C4 sounds awesome

Hell yeah, loeb passing me flat out on the straight at Port Talbot this weekend in Wales was stunning! :D :D :D :D

[BDunnell]

I hope they wont do that, I remember when GrB was banned, world level rally looked quite amusing for a long time, except on national level.

Not everyone thought that way. I for one found Group A as it was in 1987 very entertaining in the best sense.

[A.F.F.]

Ooooooooooohhhh... I can't wait to see Skoda whipping everybody else's assses :bounce:

[Tomi]

Not everyone thought that way. I for one found Group A as it was in 1987 very entertaining in the best sense.

Yes, i speak only for my self.

[Mirek]

A.F.F.: You are either ironic or god-forsaken optimist and as a classic said: optimist is not enough experienced pessimist :D

[Tomi]

Ooooooooooohhhh... I can't wait to see Skoda whipping everybody else's assses :bounce:
I have a feeling i have heard you say this same before, might become a long wait again. :)

[Sulland]

Finally they think about sport and not to please old manufacturers!

Remember: It is not over until it is over, will have to see this black on white first. But I totally agree with you !

[Rally Power]

Is it going to be S2000 or S2000+ ??? :confused:

I agree with those who say that from the Autosport site article the only thing granted is the drop of N+ concept. More, why on earth would Subaru need to develop a new car if the N14 Impreza could easily match S2000 cars performances??? :eek:

S2000 or S2000+ has positive and negative sides, and each formula* if well promoted, could be a major step into new golden ages of Rallying, but what it’s crucial for the sport is that tomorrow they finally set up a resolution in order to cut costs and regain emotion!!! :up:

*in some aspects, S2000 remind the Gr.4 times and S2000+ the initial period of WRCars. Let's hope they'll have equal sucess!!! :)

[grugsticles]

Firstly, I for one am hugely relieved that a final decision is actually just around the corner. At the rate things were progressing the 2010 season would have commenced before the rules had been agreed on.

Secondly, I dont really see how Subaru (and Mitsubishi as a former contender) can really dictate the rules. I understand Subaru's argument with keeping the flat 4 engine (and accompanying marketing campaign) and the possible difficulties with mating that to a S2000 gearbox, but Prodrive is a switched-on organisation and Im sure a suitable solution could be found with relative ease.
If it comes down to it couldnt they be allowed to uses a current spec gearbox for a year until a new unit was all sorted (minus any technological/electronic advantages that the currrent one may have).
As for Mitsubishi, their former WRC entrant, the Lancer Evolution had the same East/West mounted engine and gearbox configuration principal as a S2000 spec. Whats to compain about?

[RS]

well as for the sound these new cars will probably be better. Of the current lot the C4 sounds awesome, the Subaru is OK, and the Focus is like Barry Manilow!! absolutely awfull sound, in my opinion.

I pretty much exactly agree with you, the C4 is very nice but the Focus sounds like it has jelly up it's exhaust pipe. Soooo boring.

[Livewireshock]

This is definitely S2000+.

S2000 will continue for the IRC and PWRC levels with the added kit allowing an upgrade to outright WRC level.

However will it be called S2000+. I some how doubt it. A name to clearly differentiate the two will be conjured up I expect.

[tmx]

Good news, but we'll see how the current wrc manufacturers react to this. I hope atleast in the first two years this is implemented there will be a relative fair playing field. I want to see some more talents driving.

[Donney]

I like it, finally we have rules and finally (for a while) simpler cars.

Sounds good to me.

[RS]

Ooooooooooohhhh... I can't wait to see Skoda whipping everybody else's assses :bounce:

Looks rather good already, even without the turbo. If it snows like this, maybe Hanninen could even fight for a Monte victory ;)

http://www.dailymotion.com/poypoy38/video/12936590

[bstrat]

I like the idea of the cars being even around the world. By this I mean now our national championship contenders can fight it out with the world championship contenders again.
I remember Ford saying they don't like this idea but they could just make a Fiesta. They were great here.

[Allyc85]

Well if we do go S2000 then its good bye Mr Loeb. I quite enjoyed watching the S2000 cars at Rally GB with their screaming engines, but I dont think they should be the very top level. They just need a bit more power to give them that wow facor when the accelerate out of a corner.


well as for the sound these new cars will probably be better. Of the current lot the C4 sounds awesome, the Subaru is OK, and the Focus is like Barry Manilow!! absolutely awfull sound, in my opinion.

Nah the Subaru sounds the best by a mile. So much louder and more aggressive :D

[tmx]

Nah the Subaru sounds the best by a mile. So much louder and more aggressive :D Sometimes I can't tell if the comments sacarstic or genuine.

[Allyc85]

Genuine comment this time :D

[DonJippo]

So new WRC will be S2000+ not S2000 as it is today.


As already announced, the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based. However, the removable kit, already adopted by the WMSC, will be redefined with no electronic benefits, or similar upgrades, to ensure cost reductions. The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.

The FIA Production Car World Rally Championship will be retained for Group N cars, including the existing S2000 car.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/wmsc08/Pages/wmsc_121208.aspx

[bt52b]

World Motor Sport Council - Decisions

12/12/2008


WORLD RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP

As already announced, the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based. However, the removable kit, already adopted by the WMSC, will be redefined with no electronic benefits, or similar upgrades, to ensure cost reductions. The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.

The FIA Production Car World Rally Championship will be retained for Group N cars, including the existing S2000 car.

The FIA is in exclusive negotiations with Ralliart Italy to supply and service Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution cars for the Pirelli Star Drivers to contest the designated 2009 and 2010 FIA World Rally Championship events.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/wmsc08/Pages/wmsc_121208.aspx

[bt52b]

FIA confirms Super 2000 future
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72458

[Roy]

Sorry. I don't understand this all.

I read it also: The new WRC (from 2010) is a S2000 wit a kit but the kit has no electronic benefits.
The S2000+ (the name on this forum or S2000 kit) has a kit, but what is 'in' that kit? What is the new WRC more than a normal S2000?

And autosport.com don't say anything more than WMSC. Who give me more info, please.

[MikeD]

FIA confirms Super 2000 future
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72458

So what is exately left in the kit?

[DonJippo]

So what is exately left in the kit?

Turbo, bigger rear wing, gear shift mechanism plus other bits as posted already on this thread.

[Roy]

Turbo, bigger rear wing, gear shift mechanism plus other bits as posted already on this thread.

Thnx, but where does everybody that info from? Is there a official announcement? Any link?

[jonkka]

Turbo, bigger rear wing

Good, good... :)
Now the S2K cars have a chance to come across as proper rally cars

[Mirek]

DonJippo: That is technical nonsence. You can't get working engine by simple fitting turbo on hi-compression ratio NA engine. That can't work, sorry.

Also I can't imagine how recent tiny S2000 gearbox, clutch, differentials or drive-shafts and prop-shaft withstand much more torque...

[RS]

Good, good... :)
Now the S2K cars have a chance to come across as proper rally cars

More than that, they should be a lot better to watch than the current World Rally Cars.

[Tomi]

So new WRC will be S2000+ not S2000 as it is today.



http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/wmsc08/Pages/wmsc_121208.aspx

about as expected, good news :)

[Micke_VOC]

So new WRC will be S2000+ not S2000 as it is today.



about as expected, good news :)

I Agree, time for a world rally championship with 10 possible winners again !!

[Tomi]

I Agree, time for a world rally championship with 10 possible winners again !!


I dont think so, 2-3 years every manufacturer will maybe be happy, then those with cars that dont win takes off one by one in the same way like allways.
What comes to winners, i dont think there will not be a big change 1-4 guys maybe drive for the win, like it always has been.

[BDunnell]

I don't like this sentence: 'The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.' I very much hope that we do see these cars forming the main class in domestic championships, because they could help with the revival of these series, too.

[Tomi]

I don't like this sentence: 'The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.' I very much hope that we do see these cars forming the main class in domestic championships, because they could help with the revival of these series, too.

I agree, whats the point if they cant drive national championship too.

[bf1_IRL]

As I posted on the Irish Rally Forum..

I don't think they can enforce it here though.. Morrie Chandler said that they couldn't stop any ASN from letting the new WRCs run in that ASNs duristriction..

ie. The FiA can't stop [Your ASN] letting the new WRCs run in any [of your ASN's] events http://www.rallyforums.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

..Then again I could be wrong..

The cars are homologated and should be slower than the current WRCs so there shouldn't be able to stop a homologated car entering and competing unless all other compeditors argree that the WRCs should remain banned

Bring back WRCs to regional championships!

[JRodrigues]

So this starts making sense

http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/img/ph_details8_01.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/sterne6i/Tokyo%20Auto%20Salon%202008/P1020050.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/sterne6i/Tokyo%20Auto%20Salon%202008/P1020055.jpg

Impreza NA Concept by STI - 2.0L NA - 197hp

I wonder if they have been developing this option for a long time.

[COD]

FIA confirms Super 2000 future
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72458

So basically with the kit they kill everything that is good is S2000. No more great sound (killed by turbo), no more sideways (killed by wings) and no more driver involvement (killed by paddle shift).

[COD]

and of course, no aftermarket for the cars as they are only allowed in WRC. Or can they be converted back to S2000 mode after "sell by date" is over in WRC????

[DonJippo]

and of course, no aftermarket for the cars as they are only allowed in WRC. Or can they be converted back to S2000 mode after "sell by date" is over in WRC????

What does the removable kit mean to you?

[Mirek]

COD: Wing has absolutely NO effect in slow speeds and therefore has no effect on drifting except hi-speed drifts.

[Mirek]

NA STI is interesting but how could they get to 1150 kg with such big car?

[A.F.F.]

Looks rather good already, even without the turbo. If it snows like this, maybe Hanninen could even fight for a Monte victory ;)

http://www.dailymotion.com/poypoy38/video/12936590

Can't see the video :(

[MikeD]

So basically with the kit they kill everything that is good is S2000. No more great sound (killed by turbo), no more sideways (killed by wings) and no more driver involvement (killed by paddle shift).

Maybe, but at least we get a WRC car that is faster through the mud than any fan on a mountain bike. I mean did you see the Peug 207 S2000 at Rally GB. It was an absolute joke in terms of being able to drive fast in those conditions.

[Mirek]

Mike, that joke was in fight for PWRC victory...

[OldF]

Turbo, bigger rear wing, gear shift mechanism plus other bits as posted already on this thread.

IMO the turbo in the kit would mean in practice that the NA engine is replaced with a turbo engine.

[OldF]

]NA STI is interesting but how could they get to 1150 kg with such big car?

That’s a thing I’m wondering about also.

What does FIA actually mean by “the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based”. Does it mean that the manufacturer has to first homologate a S2000 car and thereafter the WRC kit? If this were true then Subaru would have two different cars for PWRC, a N4 and a S2000.

Or does it mean that the S2000WRC cars are based on S2000 regulations + the WRC kit. Then the manufacturer could skip the S2000 phase and go directly to WRC level. This would be IMO more logical because for example Subaru Impreza STI is a big car and I doubt that can get down to minimum weight (1200 kg gravel / 1150 kg tarmac) for a S2000. Ford would have the same problem with the Focus if they want to continue with that model.

[BDunnell]

Bring back WRCs to regional championships!

No way! National championships have always been at their strongest when running the same equipment as the WRC (and I include the Formula 2 British series of the late '90s in that, as F2 cars were also WRC equipment.)

[Livewireshock]

I don't like this sentence: 'The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.' I very much hope that we do see these cars forming the main class in domestic championships, because they could help with the revival of these series, too.

There already exists differences between regional and FIA homologations. I can easily see an ASN allowing their own take of the removable kits based on the S2000 rules. So the status quo will continue with MERC, APRC, ARC, ERC and such all being Gp.N or S2000 championships. While Ireland and other domestic series will feature the newer S2000+ cars.

Now it just remains to be seen what name it given to this new class. S2000+ was obviously a working title and easier for people to grasp but I feel the FIA will want a completely different name for this class, like WRC2 or something like that.

[RS]

Can't see the video :(

No, it's gone. I'll let you know if I find it somewhere else.

It was really good, some proper snow, looked like Sweden!

[RS]

What does FIA actually mean by “the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based”. Does it mean that the manufacturer has to first homologate a S2000 car and thereafter the WRC kit? If this were true then Subaru would have two different cars for PWRC, a N4 and a S2000.


I think it does.

But just because they have to homologate it doesn't necesarily mean they have to build or sell any.

[HaCo]

I think it does.

But just because they have to homologate it doesn't necesarily mean they have to build or sell any.

I thought that when you homologate an S2000, you need to build 20 of them.

I wonder if the bolt-on will be easy to bolt-off as well. Anyway, I thought that is how they intended to be. Imagine how cool it would be: after clinching the PWRC title, quickly rent a bolt-on s2k+ kit, mount it on your S2000 and try to fight for victory in WRC... :)

If swapping will be possible, and easy. Cool scenarios are possible. :)

[shurik]

]DonJippo: That is technical nonsence. You can't get working engine by simple fitting turbo on hi-compression ratio NA engine. That can't work, sorry.

Also I can't imagine how recent tiny S2000 gearbox, clutch, differentials or drive-shafts and prop-shaft withstand much more torque...

So true. And imagine the cost of preparing turbo, engine, gearbox, ecu.. Quite complex and not something you would do on daily basis to ba able participate events with different requirements. I aware the overall cost of S2000+ would be sky high.. :(

[Torsen]

well... regardless of whatever the heck the fia finally comes down to ... at least we have 4wd... and at this point a turbo...

without that... we don't have real rally cars dang it...

[Carlo]

[quote

Morrie Chandler said that they couldn't stop any ASN from letting the new WRCs run in that ASNs duristriction..

QUOTE]

Correct

[Tomi]

Quite complex and not something you would do on daily basis to ba able participate events with different requirements I aware the overall cost of S2000+ would be sky high.. . :(

maybe thats not the idea either.

[DonJippo]

So true. And imagine the cost of preparing turbo, engine, gearbox, ecu.. Quite complex and not something you would do on daily basis to ba able participate events with different requirements. I aware the overall cost of S2000+ would be sky high.. :(

There is a 30k€ price tag for the kit and the whole purpose of it is that it's removable within short time so that you can use the car in different events as well not just in WRC.

[bstrat]

well... regardless of whatever the heck the fia finally comes down to ... at least we have 4wd... and at this point a turbo...

without that... we don't have real rally cars dang it...


You dont need 4wd or turbos to be competitive. I think it would be better if they made the rules so you didn't have to have 4wd or turbos to be competitive. That would be cheaper too. Have a look at the links.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=j_D98lteAN8

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTdPcZxuPo

[Sulland]

But it has to be a very low efficiency turbo if they only plan to take out 50 horsepowers from it ?

They are probably aiming more for torque then. How much more torque will it produce ?

[miksu]

You dont need 4wd or turbos to be competitive. I think it would be better if they made the rules so you didn't have to have 4wd or turbos to be competitive. That would be cheaper too. Have a look at the links.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=j_D98lteAN8

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTdPcZxuPo

looks nice. but when you look at the cars, you see how old they are. 2wd and especially rear wheel drive is just not commercial anymore, only few manufacturers make them anymore for everyday cars. and what it comes to front wheel drive, its just mostly horrible to watch. its ok for juniors who can practice handling with cheap cars.

but here's one link for u since you like those:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=e-hOxd79MQY

there's also more videos of Toni driving his hobby M3, they are all pretty furious to watch!

[Mirek]

There is a 30k€ price tag for the kit and the whole purpose of it is that it's removable within short time so that you can use the car in different events as well not just in WRC.

As was said, that is nonsence. You can't get working turbo car from S2000 by fitting turbo in 30 tousand Eur.

With turbo You have to use new cylinder head, new pistons, new crankshat, new piston rods, new valves, new camshaft, new cylinder sleeves, new exhaust, new electronics, new air intake, new clutch, new gearbox, new propshaft, new driveshafts, new differencials etc.

That would always cost more than 30 tousand and would never be easy and fast to mount.

[bf1_IRL]

No way! National championships have always been at their strongest when running the same equipment as the WRC (and I include the Formula 2 British series of the late '90s in that, as F2 cars were also WRC equipment.)


[quote

Morrie Chandler said that they couldn't stop any ASN from letting the new WRCs run in that ASNs duristriction..

Correct

Apologies I meant that the new spec World Rally Car should be allowed in national championships and Regional so if you don't have a WRC event in your country but do have a regional round the national championship entrants will be able to battle with visiting compeditors who also can have the new spec WRCs as well :)

So those countries could have a WRC type event without it being a World Championship event :)

[MikeD]

]Mike, that joke was in fight for PWRC victory...

On day 1 it wasn't. When it gets a little muddy, then the S2000 car is just to unspectacluar (IMO). Sandell critisied the car himself because he couldn't put the power down...

[bstrat]

looks nice. but when you look at the cars, you see how old they are. 2wd and especially rear wheel drive is just not commercial anymore, only few manufacturers make them anymore for everyday cars. and what it comes to front wheel drive, its just mostly horrible to watch. its ok for juniors who can practice handling with cheap cars.

but here's one link for u since you like those:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=e-hOxd79MQY

there's also more videos of Toni driving his hobby M3, they are all pretty furious to watch!

True. Nice video. Nice car too. Although alot of the cars over here are 2wd but anyway it will probably never be that way again. And like you said its ok for juniors to practice with. Anyway it looks like the WRC is heading in the right direction and once the get the kinks worked out it should be good.

[BDunnell]

looks nice. but when you look at the cars, you see how old they are. 2wd and especially rear wheel drive is just not commercial anymore, only few manufacturers make them anymore for everyday cars. and what it comes to front wheel drive, its just mostly horrible to watch. its ok for juniors who can practice handling with cheap cars.

But 2wd can also mean the very exciting-looking F2 cars of the 1990s, which demanded a lot of skill to drive quickly. I think that sort of car should still have a place at the top of the WRC alongside four-wheel-drive equipment, which, let's face it, is far less representative of the average road car.

[Rally Power]

The FIA WMSC decisions about the new WRC regulations:

"From 2012, it was agreed in principle that world rally cars will be four-wheel drive and turbo-charged, based on mass-produced Group N and S2000 specification cars” (27/06/2007)

"The new technical regulations for the future World Rally Car will become effective from 2011. The WRC Car will be based on the current Super 2000 and Group N cars, fitted with a supplementary kit, which includes turbo and rear-wing additions. The kit must be able to be fitted or removed within a defined time limit, to be determined.” (26/03/2008)

"The WRC Commission will therefore review the current direction of the proposed 2010 technical regulations, in order to ensure that the original decision to use no more than a removable, bolt-on kit to change a Super 2000 or Group N car into a World Rally car is maintained.” (05/11/2008)

"As already announced, the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based. However, the removable kit, already adopted by the WMSC, will be redefined with no electronic benefits, or similar upgrades, to ensure cost reductions. The new S2000-based World Rally Car will only be permitted for use on World Rally Championship events.” (12/12/2008)

:eek: They took one and a half year to decide that the new WRC will be based just on S2000 cars and have electronic restrictions…how much time they’ll get to determinate the kit technical regulations (putting in other words, when will they realised that the removable kit format it’s impractical?!?).

[quote="OldF"]
What does FIA actually mean by “the 2010 World Rally Car will be S2000 based”. Does it mean that the manufacturer has to first homologate a S2000 car and thereafter the WRC kit?
quote]

Regarding the previous kit-cars regulations (KC1600 and 2000), you’ll have to get a homologated S2000 base car and then produce and homologate the kit variant. That could be good news to the S2000 market, spreading the range of competitive cars for privateers and regional teams. :up:

[BDunnell]

Here is a rather dull question, but I'll ask it anyway. In which Group will the new cars be categorised — A7.5 or something? Or will the FIA introduce a new Group system?

[OldF]

]As was said, that is nonsence. You can't get working turbo car from S2000 by fitting turbo in 30 tousand Eur.

With turbo You have to use new cylinder head, new pistons, new crankshat, new piston rods, new valves, new camshaft, new cylinder sleeves, new exhaust, new electronics, new air intake, new clutch, new gearbox, new propshaft, new driveshafts, new differencials etc.

That would always cost more than 30 tousand and would never be easy and fast to mount.

Mirek, you forgot the cylinder head bolts and maybe the joints in the wheel hubs. :)

The parts list for the turbo kit is quite long and replacing all these parts take some time.


There is a 30k€ price tag for the kit and the whole purpose of it is that it's removable within short time so that you can use the car in different events as well not just in WRC.

A S2000’s torque is about 250 Nm and if the boost of the next generation WRC cars were limited to 2 bar (as mentioned in Gpweek, issue 21, page 35), the torque would be about 600 Nm. That is 2,4 times the torque of a S2000. This means for a NA engine and a turbo engine, that have similar cylinder diameter and stroke length, the force pushing down the piston at combustion stroke is 2,4 times bigger for the turbo engine. So all the parts beginning from the engine to the wheel hubs have to cope with this increased torque.

Here is a link where it’s explained why the compression ratio for a turbo engine has be lower than for a NA engine.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech102.html

“Factors that influence the compression ratio include: fuel anti-knock properties (octane rating), boost pressure, intake air temperature, combustion chamber design, ignition timing, valve events, and exhaust backpressure. Many modern normally-aspirated engines have well-designed combustion chambers that, with appropriate tuning, will allow modest boost levels with no change to compression ratio. For higher power targets with more boost, compression ratio should be adjusted to compensate.”

[J.Lindstroem]

Here is a rather dull question, but I'll ask it anyway. In which Group will the new cars be categorised — A7.5 or something? Or will the FIA introduce a new Group system?

That´s a very good question... Does anybody have som specs of A7 cars..? The first thought is that since this S2000 cars are running in the same class as N4 should'nt it be like N6 or something.. i don't know... haha! :D

[urabus-denoS2000]

My guess is that if they would allow S2000 in A7 (where it belongs,it is really unfair to have it in N4,let alone N) they would have to allow Maxi Kit car beasts that they already banned

[HaCo]

A classes and N classes are history guys. A mitsubishi N4 is far what is meant with a production car IMHO. They all bellong in R4 class... :)

[urabus-denoS2000]

A classes and N classes are history guys. A mitsubishi N4 is far what is meant with a production car IMHO. They all bellong in R4 class... :)

Yes but it is a LOT closer to production than a 207.....

[pantealex]

Here is a rather dull question, but I'll ask it anyway. In which Group will the new cars be categorised — A7.5 or something? Or will the FIA introduce a new Group system?
Same as WRC = 2-litre with turbo = A8

[RS]

If what I read previously is true, then the S2000 x-trac transmission has been designed to cope with turbo power. Mirek has a point about the engine parts though, but surely the teams have been consulted all along and they know this??

Otherwise I can see a reduction in turbo boost coming, or yet more concessions with the new rules.

[OldF]

If what I read previously is true, then the S2000 x-trac transmission has been designed to cope with turbo power. Mirek has a point about the engine parts though, but surely the teams have been consulted all along and they know this??

Otherwise I can see a reduction in turbo boost coming, or yet more concessions with the new rules.

Maybe that’s one reason why Abarth switched to X-Trac gearbox / rear differential.

[OldF]

But it has to be a very low efficiency turbo if they only plan to take out 50 horsepowers from it ?

They are probably aiming more for torque then. How much more torque will it produce ?

Less boost -> less torque
More boost -> more torque
Low efficiency turbo -> low boost -> low torque

More horsepower you can get with higher revs until the restrictor starts to limit the airflow.

[Wim]

It is still a dangerous move to go to the S2000+. First of all, the current WRC teams will have to put in a massive amount of $ to bring a new car. This rule is ideal for the teams driving IRC now..
And also this.. S2000 cars now are much smaller. So making cars like the abarth or 207 a lot faster, will this be safe?

[Mirek]

Wim: No, they are not a lot smaller than all WRCs. All S2000 are bigger than 206 WRC.

You know, there was a rulle of minimum length 4000 mm for WRC car but in fact they used Peugeot 206 which has originaly 3822 mm with huge bumpers. Those bumpers have no effect on safety at all. Also Fabia WRC was originaly shorter than 4000 mm (originaly 3970 mm).

Current S2000 lengths are bellow. No S2000 uses huge front and rear bumpers as WRC did and usualy have the same length as stock car.

Punto: 4030 mm
207: 4030 mm
Fabia: 3992 mm
Polo: 3916 mm
Corolla: 4175 mm
Satria: 3905 mm
Corsa: 4040 mm

[Saabaru]

Why does the FIA not want the new car ran anywhere but in a WRC event? This sounds a little suspicious to me. Is it because they don’t want the car put up against other Open Class cars that might be faster than the new WRC car, and what would they do if Subaru decided to use the new car in a non FIA sanctioned event like in the U.S. or Japan? Are they going to ban all the current WRC cars from WRC events to keep them from being faster than the factory teams?

[Lalo]

Goodbye Citroën 2010

[BDunnell]

Why does the FIA not want the new car ran anywhere but in a WRC event? This sounds a little suspicious to me. Is it because they don’t want the car put up against other Open Class cars that might be faster than the new WRC car, and what would they do if Subaru decided to use the new car in a non FIA sanctioned event like in the U.S. or Japan? Are they going to ban all the current WRC cars from WRC events to keep them from being faster than the factory teams?

I suppose the hope is that the current WRC cars will just cease to be used in major events over time. It would certainly make sense for them to be banned from WRC events.

[OldF]

Why does the FIA not want the new car ran anywhere but in a WRC event? This sounds a little suspicious to me. Is it because they don’t want the car put up against other Open Class cars that might be faster than the new WRC car, and what would they do if Subaru decided to use the new car in a non FIA sanctioned event like in the U.S. or Japan? Are they going to ban all the current WRC cars from WRC events to keep them from being faster than the factory teams?

I don’t see any change as it is now. AFAIK world rally championship is the only FIA championship where WRC cars are allowed. I think it’s up to every country ASN to decide what cars are allowed in their national championships.

[BDunnell]

I see it as being very similar to touring cars, in which various national championships have naturally gravitated to running S2000 cars in line with the WTCC.

[SubaruNorway]

If we won't have either WRC or S2000+ on national events I'm more or less done with spectating i think, no way I'm going all over Norway to watch group N cars.

[Wim]

don't forget the first victim is already.....Suzuki this year

[DonJippo]

don't forget the first victim is already.....Suzuki this year

Suzuki is victim of totally different issues than this one.

[Wim]

they will return i think...is only because the new regulations they leave now..

[jparker]

they will return i think...is only because the new regulations they leave now..
I don't think Suzuki were very surprised by the new rules. They new S2000 is coming long before starting their WRC campaign. Then again, S2000+ is quite different, so you may have a point.

[Tomi]

It has been known about 1 year now about how the new car S2000+ will be, i dont think it effected suzukis decition in any way.

[MikeD]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

[jparker]

It has been known about 1 year now about how the new car S2000+ will be, i dont think it effected suzukis decition in any way.
So, what's your theory then? And why did they announce this right after the FIA decision

[Wim]

1a: no 1b:yes
2: no
3: no
4: yes

[jparker]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

I think none of the above.

[Tomi]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

a.) At first maybe, i dont think it will give closer competition in the long run.
b.) More drivers that drives of positions 4-10, guys like Wilson, Rautenbach etc. will drop far back.
c.) At the beginning yes.
d.) No, how long IRC will excist, depends how long time Eurosport is interested.

[OldF]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

a) yes, at least I hope so.
b) no. The driver’s skills are what they are but hopefully the talent drivers will have a change to get forward.
c) yes
d) no

[bf1_IRL]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

a; Hopefully we may see more Group A esque driving
b; Again I hope yes with the option to upgrade and down grade as needed
c; I would think so as per my point above
d; I don't think so, it could become a feeder series..

[Tomi]

So, what's your theory then? And why did they announce this right after the FIA decision
Well, it can be many reasons but most likely is that, Suzuki removed last week Hiroshi Tsuda "because of health reasons" who was a strong supporter of WRC, replacing him with the MD Osamu Suzuki, one other reason is propably how the team was lead in the first place or actually it was not lead at all, the guy who drives up hill was not up to his duties.

[A.F.F.]

What are the financial sanctions if a team withdraws from WRC? Could it be that it was cheaper for Suzuki to just drive the season through, without putting any effort in testing or results than withdraw? Well, maybe it's only me but I think Suzuki's this year in WRC was a total farce and I'm pretty sure they could have done a helluva much better job if they only wanted. I guess they decided to drop out before the frigging season even started.

[rallyfiend]

So, what's your theory then? And why did they announce this right after the FIA decision

Manufacturer Registration for the 09 season closes today, so i f they hadn't made the announcement it wouldn't have taken too long for everyone to know!

[RS]

So what does everybody think...

a.) Will S2000+ give us better rallying? ... and close competition?
b.) Will it give us more good drivers?
c.) Will it give us more teams?
d.) Will it be the death of the IRC?

I think all of the above are kind of dependent on the other. I hope it will give us more teams, but I think we need to get through 2009 first. If the situation economically is worse than now then I can't see any more teams coming in for 2010.

If it does give us more teams then we should start to see more drivers hired for talent and not money, which should then make the competition closer.

As for IRC, if the S2000Turbo formula proves successful then I think they will need to adapt in order to survive as they might well lose Abarth, Skoda and Peugeot back to WRC. Personally I think it should in the longer term maybe replace ERC which has a weak entry field and very little media coverage.

Eurosport have also said they are interested in bidding for the promotion and media rights to WRC, if that happens maybe we could just get rid of pWRC and jWRC and have IRC as the second division running on the "rotated" events not in that years main calendar.

[Tomi]

Eurosport have also said they are interested in bidding for the promotion and media rights to WRC, if that happens maybe we could just get rid of pWRC and jWRC and have IRC as the second division running on the "rotated" events not in that years main calendar.

There wont be any rotated events from 2011.

[RS]

There wont be any rotated events from 2011.

Ahhh, yes. I recall now they finally decided they just wanted a calendar with proper events in it in the future.

Who knows what wacky ideas they will come up with between now and 2011 though.

[Tomi]

Ahhh, yes. I recall now they finally decided they just wanted a calendar with proper events in it in the future.

Who knows what wacky ideas they will come up with between now and 2011 though.

Ask your guy in the comission to what direction the idea about rotation is going, then you find out.
It's more about the level of the events, arrangements, infrastructure and also the credibility so that events that in the calendar will be run for sure.

[rallyfiend]

Eurosport have also said they are interested in bidding for the promotion and media rights to WRC, if that happens maybe we could just get rid of pWRC and jWRC and have IRC as the second division running on the "rotated" events not in that years main calendar.

Wasn't that supposed to be debated/decided at last week's World Motor Sport Council meeting? How come that hasn't been announced?

[MikeD]

Wasn't that supposed to be debated/decided at last week's World Motor Sport Council meeting? How come that hasn't been announced?

No, that was "just" the regulations. The issues with the global promoter will be decided right before Rally Ireland.

[Wim_Impreza]

As for IRC, if the S2000Turbo formula proves successful then I think they will need to adapt in order to survive as they might well lose Abarth, Skoda and Peugeot back to WRC. Personally I think it should in the longer term maybe replace ERC which has a weak entry field and very little media coverage.

Rallye Antibes, last round of ERC as you know, had a good entry list and especially if you compares with the past years. In ERC there can win 4 different marques (Peugeot, Fiat, Subaru and Mitsubishi) and in IRC only 2. The ERC is legendary and for me still good to follow, in a few years IRC would be (almost) dead.

[jparker]

... in a few years IRC would be (almost) dead.
Why is that? To be honest, with S2000+ WRC is going the direction it is now, I don't see IRC under any danger. In fact, I think WRC is not making any big progress with S2000+, but then again there is no better option.

[RS]

Rallye Antibes, last round of ERC as you know, had a good entry list and especially if you compares with the past years. In ERC there can win 4 different marques (Peugeot, Fiat, Subaru and Mitsubishi) and in IRC only 2. The ERC is legendary and for me still good to follow, in a few years IRC would be (almost) dead.

Hmmm, Mitsubishi could win in IRC too if they were fast enough.

I'm just thinking out loud, IF the new WRC formula is a success and IF that causes manufacturers own teams to pull out of IRC then it would be just a privateer series and it might be better if they just stuck to Europe altogether. If that was the case then could FIA sell the media rights for ERC to Eurosport and have them provide the excellent tv coverage for ERC that they do for IRC?

[Mirek]

Wim_Impreza: Mitsubishi was also registred in IRC. How was driving Mitsubishi in IRC different to ERC (except less competition in ERC)? In 2008 You had Peugeot, Fiat, VW, Honda and Mitsubishi in IRC. That is 5 marks. If we forget Honda having only 2WD there are still 4 marks capable of winning (VW in IRC is not less competitive than Subaru or Mitsubishi).

On the other hand You have no driver registration in IRC and only few regular registred drivers in ERC so that the one who is 10th overal in the rally may win ERC classification. For exaqmple in Barum Travaglia won ERC from 5th place overal.

ERC went slightly up but still is way back. Yes, there were few good rallys but second place overal for gentleman driver Mr. Solowow and seventh place overal for Tlusťák says enough.

[Brother John]

I think S2000 + will not live long. With the predictable economic for the next years and + support from Eurosport has S2000 more chance of surviving!
S2000+ will be too expensive for the crap car which it will become.
If they want economise in wrc, you can come better with S2500 + the existing GTs.

[Wim]

just mega bad timing for rulechanges...

[Brother John]

just mega bad timing for rulechanges...

Yes, that's exactly why you must come with the cheapest solution.
For WRC that would be S2000 or S2500 ! and a standard 2WD car for PWRC. That is what I call " back to the Roots" from rally!
But then the F.I.A. can receive no fat money! :p

[urabus-denoS2000]

]Yes, there were few good rallys but second place overal for gentleman driver Mr. Solowow and seventh place overal for Tlusťák says enough.

Solowow isnt such a gentleman driver.For sure he is not the fastest,but he is a decent driver
I think that just that Solowow,Tluštak,Donchev,Isik,... are doing a full season improves ERC a lot.It still isnt as close as what it used to be,but better than a few years before

[HaCo]

and in IRC only 2. The ERC is legendary and for me still good to follow, in a few years IRC would be (almost) dead.

I don't think Skoda fans will like to hear you saying that they don't have a chance to win in IRC.

IRC being dead in a few years, is that what you are hoping? It's clear you don't like the championship, I know you prefer to call it a challenge. I still don't get it, it gives a good competition, nice cars, new manufacturers, what is the problem?

[RS]

IRC being dead in a few years, is that what you are hoping? It's clear you don't like the championship, I know you prefer to call it a challenge. I still don't get it, it gives a good competition, nice cars, new manufacturers, what is the problem?

The clue is in his username ;)

[HaCo]

The clue is in his username ;)
Bad luck when the Justy S2000 will be build ;)

[BDunnell]

For every manufacturer poised to leave, there seems to be another one with interest in competing. The WRC survived the switch from Group B to Group A in 1987 more successfully than many would like to give credit for — as I say regularly on here, it was one of the best seasons of rallying I can remember — and it will get through this switch just as well.

The only question is whether there will be a WRC as we know it to keep going through the change.

[Tomi]

The scenario about more worksteams when they start with the kitcar, is about gone now.

[RS]

I think S2000 + will not live long. With the predictable economic for the next years and + support from Eurosport has S2000 more chance of surviving!


Well, IRC looks to be about to overtake WRC in terms of works teams.

[Brother John]

Well, IRC looks to be about to overtake WRC in terms of works teams.

Sometimes I wonder myself if they are not realistic here on the forum. ;)

[COD]

just mega bad timing for rulechanges...

Yes, about 5 years too late..

[AndyRAC]

Yes, about 5 years too late..

Exactly, 2004/05 - teams pulled out (Mitsubishi, Peugeot, Skoda) nothing was done. The F1A are too occupied with F1.

[A.F.F.]

What makes you folks think it's not the same this time?? F1 is doing poorly. Let's bring WRC down so F1 won't be in danger.

[BDunnell]

What makes you folks think it's not the same this time?? F1 is doing poorly. Let's bring WRC down so F1 won't be in danger.

I simply don't believe that there is any sort of conspiracy involved. After all, the current problems are being exacerbated by the global economic crisis, which can hardly be blamed on the FIA. Secondly, with Super 2000 touring car racing, the FIA has actually proved itself perfectly competent at running a series that isn't F1.

[Tomi]

I simply don't believe that there is any sort of conspiracy involved. After all, the current problems are being exacerbated by the global economic crisis, which can hardly be blamed on the FIA. Secondly, with Super 2000 touring car racing, the FIA has actually proved itself perfectly competent at running a series that isn't F1.

also dont belive in any conspiracy, i think the global crisis gives an easy way out without loosing your face.

[A.F.F.]

I simply don't believe that there is any sort of conspiracy involved. After all, the current problems are being exacerbated by the global economic crisis, which can hardly be blamed on the FIA. Secondly, with Super 2000 touring car racing, the FIA has actually proved itself perfectly competent at running a series that isn't F1.

Conspiracy might be a little harsh word since the deicisions goes from one man to another ;)

But all this economical panic... it goes like avalanche. Suddenly all the rats are leaving the ship. Happens frigging everywhere.

Thank god I can say I'm rich and doing well.

[MikeD]

Exactly, 2004/05 - teams pulled out (Mitsubishi, Peugeot, Skoda) nothing was done. The F1A are too occupied with F1.

That's a little harsh Andy ;) Mitzu & Skoda weren't scoring the expected results and I think that was the main reason for them leaving - not FIA or TV deals.
Peugeot left partly because there was no reason in fighting with the other PSA brand, when they actually wanted to fight with VAG. That's why they moved Peugeot Sport into LMS and ALMS to fight with Audi.

[Motorsportfun]

That's a little harsh Andy ;) Mitzu & Skoda weren't scoring the expected results and I think that was the main reason for them leaving - not FIA or TV deals.
Peugeot left partly because there was no reason in fighting with the other PSA brand, when they actually wanted to fight with VAG. That's why they moved Peugeot Sport into LMS and ALMS to fight with Audi.

Mike, you aren't right about Mitsubishi. Galli and Rovanpera did various podiums and Galli fought with someone called LOEB in Turkey. Do u remember? It looked like they were growing up... :p

[Helstar]

Mike, you aren't right about Mitsubishi. Galli and Rovanpera did various podiums and Galli fought with someone called LOEB in Turkey. Do u remember? It looked like they were growing up... :p
Ermmmm ... I still think that Galli 2005 season was outstanding (the most spectacular driver and he scored SS wins on any surface too), but best Gigi result was 5th (Germany and Australia) ^^ and Rovanpera 2nd in the notorious Australia rally where almost everybody of the top drivers crashed or had problems (infact Duval won his first and only rally xD !). Panizzi did a 3rd place in Montecarlo.

The car was clearly slower compared to the others and not realiable either (yes I remember when Gigi was second in Turkey and his Lancer had that damn turbo failure :\ !) - maybe only Skoda was worse ^^ but Colin showed that the Fabia could fight with the Lancer at least (GB and Australia).

Surely it was also because Mitsu guys were already racing without active differential, they could have done better in 2006 (everybody on passive diff) but they withdrew and leaved Gigi without a car to drive in 2006 all of a sudden (and he refused an offer by Ford right before the sad news :| !) ... such a pity.

[muscrae]

Loeb comments on s2000...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72575

[Tomi]

Loeb comments on s2000...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72575

The guy who has written the article is a bit lost, Loeb has not been negative to the coming kitcar, only to the current s2000.

[RS]

Loeb comments on s2000...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72575

Maybe Loeb should actually get out and watch a rally instead of just winning them all the time. Current WRCars with their big torque don't slide round the hairpins either. Perhaps even less than S2000s!

[gloomyDAY]

Snoozefest!

Seeing those cars waddle their way around hairpins is going to be painful.
At least Loeb is being cautiously optimistic as opposed to myself saying we're f***ed.

[Rally Power]

Anyone knows when the final and complete S2000+ regulations will be presented ?

I see days passing by and no precise explanation about the removable Kit subject from FIA...

[crazy]

Maybe Loeb should actually get out and watch a rally instead of just winning them all the time. Current WRCars with their big torque don't slide round the hairpins either. Perhaps even less than S2000s!If the cars don't slide it's because of the central diff not the power anyway he was speaking about how the s2000 seems slow and out of breath out of corners.

[RS]

If the cars don't slide it's because of the central diff not the power anyway he was speaking about how the s2000 seems slow and out of breath out of corners.

Yes, that was my point really... With the control transmission I am confident an S2000Turbo will be good to watch. I just didn't like Loeb pinning his criticsm on the S2000 engine when in my opinion the current World Rally Cars look even less agile round the hairpins.

[MJW]

So come the brave new world of S2000+ in 2010 - which manufacturers will actually have a car in the wrc? Abarth have dropped big hints that they will be there. Will it Peugeot or Citroen or will PSA do the same mistake of letting two brands spend money from the same pot as they did in wrc? Same really about Skoda or the rumoured VW Scirocco. I hear Petter is looking for a drive that can kead to a 2010 programme so I guess that means manufactureres are at least considering this.

[Tomi]

My guess is that Fiat, Peugeot, Skoda will join, Citroen will take off.

[Psycho!]

I think Citroen is already preparing C3 S2000...

[urabus-denoS2000]

Yes they are (or should begin) the main test driver will be Dani Sordo,Ogier and Loeb will be helping

[MJW]

Yes they are (or should begin) the main test driver will be Dani Sordo,Ogier and Loeb will be helping
Do you think we will see Peugeot and Citroen? or could they leave the Pug as the "base car" and the C3 as the plus?

[RS]

Do you think we will see Peugeot and Citroen? or could they leave the Pug as the "base car" and the C3 as the plus?

That wouldn't be allowed, but if the C3 shares the same platform as the 207 it could save Citroen a lot of extra engineering effort.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I think Citroen will stay but thats just my opinion,I doubt that both will enter.

I dont know if I would prefer Peugeot because of its greater rallying history or Citroen because it is "the" team of the 21st century.....

But best would be if we would have both ofcourse ;)

[Psycho!]

Peugeot has a very good base with 207,so it will be very competitive as a 2000+.That's the same for all teams which already are running S2000 cars...

[MikeD]

My guess is that Fiat, Peugeot, Skoda will join, Citroen will take off.

I am pretty sure Citroën will stay. After launching a "Junior Team" with the aim of developing drivers for the future, then that would be a weird scenario if the team wasn't to stay in the WRC.

[Rally Power]

I doubt it’s an exclusive, but at this week edition of the Portuguese journal Autosport, Olivier Quesnel gave to Martin Holmes (from long time collaborator of AS) an interview with some revelations:

Citroën will continue at the WRC and will develop a S2000+ car based in a model yet not presented;
Peugeot will not come to WRC but could continue to produce S2000 cars to regional and local rally costumers;
Manufacturers will have this week a meeting with FIA, in order to clarify the technical regulations from the S2000+ category;
Current WRC cars could still be the top formula at the 2010 Championship because the S2000+ cars would only get points from 2011.

Last one it’s very confusing; can anyone clarify it...

[MJW]

Current WRC cars could still be the top formula at the 2010 Championship because the S2000+ cars would only get points from 2011.

Last one it’s very confusing; can anyone clarify it...
Even slower death for WRC is how I see that, 2009 is bad in terms of entries as it is, (even the Van Merksteins of this world say they buy no more wrc cars as they are dead).
In reality ther are no S2000+ cars in existence, approximately 52 weeks to round 1 2010 wrc at Monte. With the current economic situation hardly likely to have been resolved by Easter I would suggest that FIA take a brave decision and make S2000 the top class in 2010 with allowing the S2000+ kit cars in from 2011, especially as FIA made it mandatory to base the new cars on S2000 not Group N.

[MJW]

Unlees of course it suits FIA to have the pinnacle of rallying in state of disarray for even longer whilst F1 seems to be suffering from a financial chill. Drag it out for another year and that should finally kill off rallying.........

[Sulland]

Problem is that the regulations are not in writing yet, so the manufacturers do not know what to build.

FIA need to get the move on - now !

[MJW]

Problem is that the regulations are not in writing yet, so the manufacturers do not know what to build.

FIA need to get the move on - now !Thats teh point I am making, 52 weeks to know the regulations, design a car / kit, build it, test it to get it ready, whilst still trying to resource competing in 2009 in the case of Citroen and Ford. Impossible? No , Difficult? Yes

[A.F.F.]

Unlees of course it suits FIA to have the pinnacle of rallying in state of disarray for even longer whilst F1 seems to be suffering from a financial chill. Drag it out for another year and that should finally kill off rallying.........


Don't worry. Rallying is like a cockroach. It never dies. Pain deep in Ecclestone's a$$. :D

[Sulland]

Thats teh point I am making, 52 weeks to know the regulations, design a car / kit, build it, test it to get it ready, whilst still trying to resource competing in 2009 in the case of Citroen and Ford. Impossible? No , Difficult? Yes


So then we will have plain S2000 in 2010 as WRC, was not that the deal ?

[MJW]

I think a lot of people are getting "hung up" about S2000, Petter Solberg has said he does not care what specification the car is, so long as it is competitive against other cars in the class, it needs 5 wheels, 4 on the ground and 1 to steer with. Its interesting that in another thread the Van Meksteins are not interested in S2000, and somebody else said that S2000 doesnt suit gentlemen drivers, well if thats the case, bring it on, Hanninen, Meeke, Wilks, PG, joining Loeb, Ogier, Latvala, Mikko, Petter sounds better than, Villagra, Van Merkstein, Conrad etc etc. being promoted on wrc.com as "drivers"

[Tomi]

I am pretty sure Citroën will stay. After launching a "Junior Team" with the aim of developing drivers for the future, then that would be a weird scenario if the team wasn't to stay in the WRC.

It does not mean anything, not long time ago the motorsport sections at PSA merged, the car that is better 2010 i guess will continiue.

[Donney]

I think a lot of people are getting "hung up" about S2000, Petter Solberg has said he does not care what specification the car is, so long as it is competitive against other cars in the class, it needs 5 wheels, 4 on the ground and 1 to steer with. Its interesting that in another thread the Van Meksteins are not interested in S2000, and somebody else said that S2000 doesnt suit gentlemen drivers, well if thats the case, bring it on, Hanninen, Meeke, Wilks, PG, joining Loeb, Ogier, Latvala, Mikko, Petter sounds better than, Villagra, Van Merkstein, Conrad etc etc. being promoted on wrc.com as "drivers"


I fully agree.

[Sulland]

Rally is in the entertainment business, and then they need to focus on providing that.

In my opinion it is then much better with a simple and straight forward car, that are giving the oportunity for the real entertainers, namely the Driver and the Co-Driver to show their skills.

The Manufacturers Championship have become to important, since there is too much money involved. If the car is simple, and you can buy it for a decent price to set up your own team, that will create a much wider series, where more than 6-8 people can win. Talent need too be able to get a payed drive - like Duval is pointing out; They are putting their health on the line.

The focus need to move back to the heroes, and away from hightech, leave that to F1.

S2000 or + is a very good step in the right direction, to get it back to being hard to get all out of car, to separate the best from the rest !

[Rally Power]

Problem is that the regulations are not in writing yet, so the manufacturers do not know what to build.

FIA need to get the move on - now !


The bolt-on Kit technical definition it’s surely the reason for the delays.

Most of you have already notice the impractical character of the proposed solution (specially the removable turbo issue), so why on earth doesn’t the FIA came with a B Plan, that could easily be arranged ?!?

Discard the bolt-on scheme and allow manufacturers to homologate non-removable kits for the S2000+ cars, would be a much more reasonable approach to the new regulations, keeping the main technical restrictions (electronics, composite materials, etc), that everybody agrees in order to cut costs.

[playmo]

The only good thing that came with this economical crisis is that FIA and it's "associates" need to keep regulations simple so costs can be finaly cut down, ONLY JUST to keep championships alive.
The opinions the drivers should be disregarded and cars made simple (transmissions, suspension, engine, everything performance-wise) and very safe, period. If some drivers (Loeb included) don't like it, then get the heck out! there will be plenty lining up to drive (and maybe risk ther arses a little too much), maybe many will never beat world records on wins, championships or points, etc but i assure you that they will provide what we all crave: show! great driving!, sideways action!, tight leaderboards!.
I hope costs could be cut more, as more teams could join world-wide series as IRC or WRC or even better, both!

[Finni]

The opinions the drivers should be disregarded and cars made simple (transmissions, suspension, engine, everything performance-wise) and very safe, period. If some drivers (Loeb included) don't like it, then get the heck out! there will be plenty lining up to drive (and maybe risk ther arses a little too much)

Is it really economical catastrophe if cars are made little more powerfull (from 300hp to 380hp)?

[Brother John]

The only good thing that came with this economical crisis is that FIA and it's "associates" need to keep regulations simple so costs can be finaly cut down, ONLY JUST to keep championships alive.
The opinions the drivers should be disregarded and cars made simple (transmissions, suspension, engine, everything performance-wise) and very safe, period. If some drivers (Loeb included) don't like it, then get the heck out! there will be plenty lining up to drive (and maybe risk ther arses a little too much), maybe many will never beat world records on wins, championships or points, etc but i assure you that they will provide what we all crave: show! great driving!, sideways action!, tight leaderboards!.
I hope costs could be cut more, as more teams could join world-wide series as IRC or WRC or even better, both!

Great post from playmo, :up: Too much guys here keep on dreaming about the current wrc cars. Back to the roots from rally, that is what we need. :s mokin:

http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131168

[Sulland]

Kris Meeke has his say: http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7591

[RS]

Kris Meeke has his say: http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7591

You only have to watch onboards from WRC to realise that there is something in what Kris says. They are very sedate.

I would like to see the rules get back to the point where the drivers who have a bit of flair and attacking style are the ones who succeed. S2000 is very good for this, they have to be taken by the scruff of the neck to get the best out of them. When a WRCar looks spectacular, that usually means it isn't very fast.

[sasamsa]

I have a question..
Why are these new cars - fiesta, c3 smaller, class below todays WRC base cars?
Cant they make focus and C4 s2000?
Its gone all the way from beasts of groupb to cute small compact cars.
And how comparable is the power of the cars to wrc?
No more sideways action I guess? If its going to be slow precise driving with cute cars I dont want to watch that

[Mirek]

I have a question..
Why are these new cars - fiesta, c3 smaller, class below todays WRC base cars?

Because S2000 regulations are way more strict than WRC and it's hard to put down the weight from bigger car.


Cant they make focus and C4 s2000?

They can but smaller car would be better.


Its gone all the way from beasts of groupb to cute small compact cars.

All S2000 cars are much bigger than MG Metro 6R4 or 205 T16. Even it doesn't look that way, Audi Sport Quattro was the same length as Corolla S2000 and only 130 mm longer than 207 or Punto. Except huge bumpers, all S2000 are also biger than Peugeot 206 WRC.


And how comparable is the power of the cars to wrc?

WRC have some 80-100 Hp more and few dozens of kilograms more.


No more sideways action I guess? If its going to be slow precise driving with cute cars I dont want to watch that

Is there ANY sideways action with WRC today on tarmac? I haven't seen any. Just watch some Monte Carlo testing videos to compare with previous years. You definitely won't see less sliding even though these are only standard S2000 cars, not S2000+ with turbo.

Peugeot:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x817vj_test-peugeot-207-s2000-montecarlo-2_auto
http://www.youtube.com/v/KFZFTEvBaqs

Škoda:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7z8dd_testskodafabias2000ii_sport

Abarth:
http://www.youtube.com/v/nPU-IqTKHfY

[sasamsa]

]
Peugeot:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x817vj_test-peugeot-207-s2000-montecarlo-2_auto
http://www.youtube.com/v/KFZFTEvBaqs

Škoda:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7z8dd_testskodafabias2000ii_sport

Abarth:
http://www.youtube.com/v/nPU-IqTKHfY

Well all these videos are on snow.

This is funny bit from the article (http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7591)

"In a S2000 car the man on the street would find it very difficult to drive at 70% because it will feel like the car is not working."

I think that because of reduced power everybody will drive like Loeb..
With more power at least you can get back to speed faster and power out of corners faster.

In Clarkson's voice: "Power Power!" :)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7250/gronholmsv5.jpg

[BDunnell]

I would like to see the rules get back to the point where the drivers who have a bit of flair and attacking style are the ones who succeed. S2000 is very good for this, they have to be taken by the scruff of the neck to get the best out of them.

I'll second that. It's one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to it.

[RS]

With more power at least you can get back to speed faster and power out of corners faster.


Is that a good thing though? That only helps the weaker drivers.

I agree with Mirek.. even without their turbo torque, and even if Monte is dry asphalt I expect to see more sliding from the S2000s this year than the WRCs previously.

S2000s may have less torque, but they also have less clever differentials than WRCars which does make them look more agile. That is why S2000Turbo could be the best of both worlds, as long as the rules stay the way originally intended.

[Almeidafoto]

I believe that this is going to be a change having less impact than when they ended up with Group B.
Spectularity will not be lost, costs will fall down, so it may be the smartest decision, untill costs and speed raise again... :cool:

[Sulland]

I do not think that FIA have any other option but to re-introduce a price limit to the cars.

They had 168 000 € for a tarmac car, but I think I remember we established that it is taken out of the regs.

They have said that the + kit is to be ax 30 000 €.

If they dont put a max price, the cost will again gallop in the future I am afraid !