How to best keep Rally Car cost down ?

[Sulland]

This will turn into the key question in the future.

What would the best way to keep cost down ?

[Buzz Lightyear]

As I said on another thread..

"the development price is not the problem. its the cost to the customer. there should be no discrepancy between works and customer units." Do as F1 is doing, blueprint the engine, standardise the power output, and supply same units to all their customers

They supply idential engines, of the same spec, to every driver, for the same price. Engine and gearbox units are lined up in a row, and a selected at random by driver."

To add to the spectacle.. drivers and mechanics must fit their own engine and gbox to their own car on Thurday, and then go to shakedown.

[Langdale Forest]

To keep costs down, you could use full manual gearboxes agian

[raybak]

To keep costs down, just don't rally. If you want to compete it's going to cost. If you want to compete at the highest level it's going to cost you a lot.

S2000 is expensive, Group N is expensive, WRC is expensive.

The one good thing about S2000 is the running costs are less than a Group N.

Ray

[shurik]

to lower the cost and keep it down a real competition has to be introduced among manufacturers and suppliers. All this current homologation stuff just keep the cost up.. Here's an example
I can buy stock pug 207RC for like 20k euro, to convert it into 207 R1 I'll spend something like 5k or less just by welding in roll-cage, installing proper seats, extinguishers and stripping of the junk.
To make an R3 I need a 45k kit + customs rate, allthough I can get to the same level for nearly half a price just by using custom shocks, manifold, ECU, exhaust, etc. For gods sake, you can order a custom gearbox fot half a price of a hewland one..

[Bazza2541]

Throw the regs out.
Open all the restrictions, let the car companies run what they like and fit speed restrictors.
300-400bhp is very easy to obtain without the current restrictions. I believe the most of the costs associated with motorsport is in trying to get maximum performace wiythin given regulations, if the regulations were opened up then the manufacturers could get the performance that they want at a fraction of the cost.

[shurik]

to lower the cost and keep it down a real competition has to be introduced among manufacturers and suppliers. All this current homologation stuff just keep the cost up.. Here's an example
I can buy stock pug 207RC for like 20k euro, to convert it into 207 R1 I'll spend something like 5k or less just by welding in roll-cage, installing proper seats, extinguishers and stripping of the junk.
To make an R3 I need a 45k kit + customs rate, allthough I can get to the same level for nearly half a price just by using custom shocks, manifold, ECU, exhaust, etc. For gods sake, you can order a custom gearbox fot half a price of a hewland one..
sorry, forgot that RC pug is turbocharged :p :
let's say it's a Clio Sport and we're talking about the difference between N3 and R3C :D

[Daniel]

To keep costs down, just don't rally. If you want to compete it's going to cost. If you want to compete at the highest level it's going to cost you a lot.

S2000 is expensive, Group N is expensive, WRC is expensive.

The one good thing about S2000 is the running costs are less than a Group N.

Ray
What a silly post :mark: you've just stated that there should basically be no WRC if money is to be saved.

[Mirek]

As was mentioned before... why do they use tiny restrictors and insane turbo pressure boost? In my opinion no restrictor and standard turbo with limited boost would be much much cheaper way to get the same power.

[Barreis]

You have Citroen, Ford, Subaru and Suzuki... Allow them to sell finished cars on prize of 300 000 euros or GBP (VAT must be included). Rebuilding must be on registered costs. If they will deside to get some extra money from customers they will be ban until the end of championship year.

[Sulland]

You have Citroen, Ford, Subaru and Suzuki... Allow them to sell finished cars on prize of 300 000 euros or GBP (VAT must be included). Rebuilding must be on registered costs. If they will deside to get some extra money from customers they will be ban until the end of championship year.


But here Citroen would be the only brand to sell to privateers !

[raybak]

What a silly post :mark: you've just stated that there should basically be no WRC if money is to be saved.

Daniel, what i was saying that if you aren't prepared to spend the dollars, don't rally. If manufacturers want to be in the sport then they have to be prepared with lots of dollars.

I know if I didn't have the money to spend I wouldn't be in the sport. I would go and do something cheaper like play Chess.

Ray

[Livewireshock]

Let us face reality.

Ever since the sport has begun, there have been teams that want to outspend their opposition. The richer teams have always risen to the top in this regard, no matter what the category.

I have yet to hear of a class introduced to the sport where the costs have not spiralled well beyond the original intentions. Why? Because everyone is competitive and they are willing to spend their way to the top if they can afford to.

I have known some series where virtually the whole car has been totally full of controlled components. Yet a budget to run them at the top was exactly the same or in excess of a free spec category, because teams were willing to spend everything they had on the few components they were allowed to modify, change or develop.

The same arguments are happening now and they have been argued about for years.

[BDunnell]

Let us face reality.

Ever since the sport has begun, there have been teams that want to outspend their opposition. The richer teams have always risen to the top in this regard, no matter what the category.

I have yet to hear of a class introduced to the sport where the costs have not spiralled well beyond the original intentions. Why? Because everyone is competitive and they are willing to spend their way to the top if they can afford to.

I have known some series where virtually the whole car has been totally full of controlled components. Yet a budget to run them at the top was exactly the same or in excess of a free spec category, because teams were willing to spend everything they had on the few components they were allowed to modify, change or develop.

The same arguments are happening now and they have been argued about for years.

Interestingly, though, Super 2000 touring cars seem to be doing OK in this respect. You still need to be well-funded to compete at the top, but the formula doesn't seem to offer the same potential for spiralling development costs as did Super Touring. Is there a parallel there for rallying?

[anthonyvop]

Cost cutting measures in racing are just for show.
Make a change of one thing to save money the teams will just spend money on something else.

has any of the cost saving measures in F1 actualy cause teams to cut their budgets?

[jparker]

Cost cutting measures in racing are just for show.
Make a change of one thing to save money the teams will just spend money on something else.

has any of the cost saving measures in F1 actualy cause teams to cut their budgets?

I agree. Maybe if the WRC provide more in return for manufacturers in terms of exposure, they will accept the high cost. Huge money should be spent promoting WRC, for some reason I don't see this happening.
Still, high tech stuff should somehow be restricted, that's why S2000 is a step in the right direction.
Also, why don't we see what the rally folks in North America are doing? Yes, the level of rallying there is not as good as in Europe, but it looks they have found the rights formula for powerful and spectacular cars at very reasonable cost.

[Daniel]

Daniel, what i was saying that if you aren't prepared to spend the dollars, don't rally. If manufacturers want to be in the sport then they have to be prepared with lots of dollars.

I know if I didn't have the money to spend I wouldn't be in the sport. I would go and do something cheaper like play Chess.

Ray

Yet another meaningless post :mark:

I'm totally against making the WRC "cheap" as such. BUT I am firmly against stupidly high costs like active transmissions and so on which add little to the spectacle and in fact actually detract from it.

What happens to you in your championship is of little consequence to me. I Australia wants to go down a WRC or Group B route I'm not all that bothered to be honest. But when teams like Subaru who spend a lot of money can't afford to compete with Citroen and Ford then there's something very wrong with the sport.

[Daniel]

Interestingly, though, Super 2000 touring cars seem to be doing OK in this respect. You still need to be well-funded to compete at the top, but the formula doesn't seem to offer the same potential for spiralling development costs as did Super Touring. Is there a parallel there for rallying?

True but don't forget that the WTCC ballasts cars. But I think you're largely right. You need to make a formula where the entry cost is low and the point at which you start to get diminishing returns is lower than it is now.

[raybak]

Hey Daniel,

Stick it up your @#$@%. You have never spent the $ that i have in rallying. Have you ever competed at the highest level, I don't think so. What championships have you won?

I'm not talking about making the WRC cheap, I'm talking about the expense and if you want to compete at the highest level than there is a cost. I don't want to cheapen it at all. I want the best teams with the best equipment to win. If you want to beat them, then you have to be better than them.

Ray

[AndyRAC]

Interesting article in Autosport 2 weeks ago - Pirelli Motorsport's Paul Hembery saying we should have simple cheap, but spectacular cars - he attended the Superspecial in Japan and thought it was as dull as ditchwater. Get rid of all the expensive technology - leave F1 to all the gizmos - WRC should be about sport and entertainment. I'm inclined to agree with him - make the cars relevant to the average car buying 'person' - not these 4WD cars - how many 4WD Ford and Citroen's can you buy?

[BDunnell]

True but don't forget that the WTCC ballasts cars. But I think you're largely right. You need to make a formula where the entry cost is low and the point at which you start to get diminishing returns is lower than it is now.

And a formula with technical regulations that don't permit great technological advances, which then force everybody else to go down that route and push costs up.

[BDunnell]

Hey Daniel,

Stick it up your @#$@%. You have never spent the $ that i have in rallying. Have you ever competed at the highest level, I don't think so. What championships have you won?

I take it that you have never commented on anything in which you haven't personally participated, then?


I don't want to cheapen it at all. I want the best teams with the best equipment to win. If you want to beat them, then you have to be better than them.

Even if this kills off the sport through it becoming prohibitively expensive at a time when the cash just isn't there? I think a longer-term view is required.

[Daniel]

Hey Daniel,

Stick it up your @#$@%. You have never spent the $ that i have in rallying. Have you ever competed at the highest level, I don't think so. What championships have you won?

I'm not talking about making the WRC cheap, I'm talking about the expense and if you want to compete at the highest level than there is a cost. I don't want to cheapen it at all. I want the best teams with the best equipment to win. If you want to beat them, then you have to be better than them.

Ray

Wow real mature!

You just don't get it. As much as I'm a fan of Citroen and so on I can't help but think that Peugeot and Citroen ruined the WRC. When Peugeot came along in 1999 they did extraordinarily well for a brand new team with no experience of WRCars and the same was true with Citroen. If we ignore 2006 and 2007 which was down to nothing more than Citroen not having a proper 2nd driver the PSA group won the manufacturers title from 2000-2008 and will probably win again next year the way things are going. That sort of domination is not good for the sport. Look at the state of the WRC now. It's dying on it's feet.

The problem at the moment is that to get to 90% of the performance of a Citroen or Ford you have to spend a helluva lot of money and for that you don't get much in the way of results. What needs to happen is that it needs to be cheap to get withing 95% of the top cars so that other manufacturers can then come in, still spend a lot of money but at least be able to take some good performances to the boardroom to justify their participation in the WRC or there will be no WRC left to participate in. The top spenders will almost always still win but it won't be a total waste of money for the other teams.

In the last 10 years we've lost
Skoda
Seat
Toyota
Peugeot
Mitsubishi
Hyundai

Will we need to lose Citroen, Suzuki and Subaru to show you that the WRC is not a viable proposition for manufacturers? :mark:

All of this is irrelevant though because I've not competed in a rally car so my rallyE-penis isn't big enough for my opinion to matter :laugh:

[AndyRAC]

The alarm bells were ringing in 2004/5 when Peugeot, Skoda, Citroen (officially - not Kronos), Mitsubishi pulled out, Ford threatened but managed to stay thanks to employing 'cheap' drivers' Gardemeister & Kresta. What did the FIA do? Here we are 4 years later, need I say more?

[Daniel]

The alarm bells were ringing in 2004/5 when Peugeot, Skoda, Citroen (officially - not Kronos), Mitsubishi pulled out, Ford threatened but managed to stay thanks to employing 'cheap' drivers' Gardemeister & Kresta. What did the FIA do? Here we are 4 years later, need I say more?
If Ray hadn't come along and said it was all good I might have agreed with you :p

[Barreis]

We must be realistic... If works teams want 2 or 3 millions euros for some kind of private entry then this is business for rich people. This is still not F1 where sponsors are still interested to invest some money. Even V. Rossi didn't have some big sticker of his private sponsors. 2 or 3 millions euros for seat can pay only guys from very rich family or some goverments (Atkinson or Kresta). Isn't this little bit out of mind?! You can be very talented but without money you are nobody... Maybe only in Finland companies are interested to invest big money in private drivers. France is specific 'cos if you drive jwrc c2 and become a champ like Seb, Sola or Ogier you'll for sure be offered drive from Citroen. Where are clio s1600 jwrc champs (Tirabassi or Sandell)? They had to wait for some time (Subaru France destroyed Tirabassi's carrier offered him a job then guy cancelled contract with Renault and then gave him group N toy; Sandell is in Pwrc - You must be Toshi Arai to be offered WRC drive). To become wrc driver is very difficult these days...

[Daniel]

We must be realistic... If works teams want 2 or 3 millions euros for some kind of private entry then this is business for rich people. This is still not F1 where sponsors are still interested to invest some money. Even V. Rossi didn't have some big sticker of his private sponsors. 2 or 3 millions euros for seat can pay only guys from very rich family or some goverments (Atkinson or Kresta). Isn't this little bit out of mind?! You can be very talented but without money you are nobody... Maybe only in Finland companies are interested to invest big money in private drivers. France is specific 'cos if you drive jwrc c2 and become a champ like Seb, Sola or Ogier you'll for sure be offered drive from Citroen. Where are clio s1600 jwrc champs (Tirabassi or Sandell)? They had to wait for some time (Subaru France destroyed Tirabassi's carrier offered him a job then guy cancelled contract with Renault and then gave him group N toy; Sandell is in Pwrc - You must be Toshi Arai to be offered WRC drive). To become wrc driver is very difficult these days...
Companies aren't interested in sponsoring in the WRC because it's **** to watch and the coverage is also ****.

[AndyRAC]

Companies aren't interested in sponsoring in the WRC because it's **** to watch and the coverage is also ****.

A man who speaks the truth, bluntly!!

[jonkka]

In the last 10 years we've lost
Skoda
Seat
Toyota
Peugeot
Mitsubishi
Hyundai

Incidentally, out of those teams all but Mitsubishi also came into top level during that same 10 year period. So in fact, if you compare the situation to 1997 there were only three full WRC teams (Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi) and two more by next year (Toyota and Seat). Not so different from current situation, eh?

Face it, we've witnessed a golden era between 1998 and 2005 (as was case in 1982-1986).

[Roy]

Incidentally, out of those teams all but Mitsubishi also came into top level during that same 10 year period. So in fact, if you compare the situation to 1997 there were only three full WRC teams (Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi) and two more by next year (Toyota and Seat). Not so different from current situation, eh?

Face it, we've witnessed a golden era between 1998 and 2005 (as was case in 1982-1986).

Thanks for that info. :up: I didn't know! This gives a different point of view of rallying today (and history).

[OldF]

The only way costs can been managed is to put a limit of the spending. This could MAYBE be done by setting a limit of staff (for example maximum 100 employees) and open books (ledger) of spending. I.e. you have xxxx euros/pounds/dollars to use, make the best what you can of that.

As has been seen several times, putting the cost limit from a technical point of view, has often failed. The engineers has always come up with new solutions where the money can been spent.

[Koz]

Was Group B canned because it was too expensive?

There will always be people willing to spend $$$ for whatever reason. You only need to give them a REASON to spend said money.
Hyundais are selling better than ever now aren't they? They have all the money in the world to spend if the WRC offered them something.
Is Mitsubishi, Toyota or Peugeot in financial crisis that they can't afford to race? What about Honda and Audi?

Sure sucks for the poor guy. But hasn't the world always been about the rich guy anyway?

Would you guys have had your "rally glory days" if they tried to cut group B spending by telling the manufacturers which gearbox, engine etc to use?
I think not.

[cannyboy]

Was Group B canned because it was too expensive?

There will always be people willing to spend $$$ for whatever reason. You only need to give them a REASON to spend said money.
Hyundais are selling better than ever now aren't they? They have all the money in the world to spend if the WRC offered them something.
Is Mitsubishi, Toyota or Peugeot in financial crisis that they can't afford to race? What about Honda and Audi?

Sure sucks for the poor guy. But hasn't the world always been about the rich guy anyway?

Would you guys have had your "rally glory days" if they tried to cut group B spending by telling the manufacturers which gearbox, engine etc to use?
I think not.

There were maufacturers stumbling over each other create grp b cars, due to the huge exposure of the sport at the time.
It was only when spectators and drivers started getting killed that some manufacturers thought the image of dead spectators didn't fit with their brand. The cost didn't matter due to the huge crowds and exposure that rallying at that time brought.

If you can get people watching, you can justify the expense.

[jonkka]

The only way costs can been managed is to put a limit of the spending.

Good idea but it's not enforceable. Even if teams would have limited budget and transparent operations including bookkeeping, in-house teams would inherently benefit from R&D programs of their mother companies (one of the best arguments in favour of in-house competition department á la Citroen Sport as opposed to a contracted outsider like M-Sport or Prodrive).


As has been seen several times, putting the cost limit from a technical point of view, has often failed. The engineers has always come up with new solutions where the money can been spent.

Quite correct. And even if money is saved in one area, budgets do not shrink. Good example is centralised servicing. It was supposed to reduce spending by cutting down number of mechanics, service vans, tools and spares teams needed. That must have happened but instead teams seem to spend a whole lot more on service area infrastructure (those huge tents and hospitality trucks). WRC service park isn't that far removed from F1 paddock, really.

So, instead of concentrating solely on empty gestures of cost reduction I would look for ways to increase the show and visibility, thereby reducing the average marketing reach cost and making the sport more attractive for manufacturers.

Having said that, I think that this thread has merit if we bear in mind that acquiring and running a World Rally Car is huge burden for a privateer. And those the sport needs for it's very roots.

[jonkka]

Was Group B canned because it was too expensive?

No - absolute sum of money spent on those was of course big but still relatively little if compared to budgets of today.

Fast development cycle meant more expenses but on the other hand, with only 20 produced examples required it was very cheap for manufacturers (if compared to Gr A). Also, with relative technological freedom performance gains was easy to achieve and hence, cheap to produce. Law of dimishing returns in World Rally Car regulations has led to increasingly higher costs for ever smaller gains.

[AndyRAC]

Good idea but it's not enforceable. Even if teams would have limited budget and transparent operations including bookkeeping, in-house teams would inherently benefit from R&D programs of their mother companies (one of the best arguments in favour of in-house competition department á la Citroen Sport as opposed to a contracted outsider like M-Sport or Prodrive).



Quite correct. And even if money is saved in one area, budgets do not shrink. Good example is centralised servicing. It was supposed to reduce spending by cutting down number of mechanics, service vans, tools and spares teams needed. That must have happened but instead teams seem to spend a whole lot more on service area infrastructure (those huge tents and hospitality trucks). WRC service park isn't that far removed from F1 paddock, really.

So, instead of concentrating solely on empty gestures of cost reduction I would look for ways to increase the show and visibility, thereby reducing the average marketing reach cost and making the sport more attractive for manufacturers.

Having said that, I think that this thread has merit if we bear in mind that acquiring and running a World Rally Car is huge burden for a privateer. And those the sport needs for it's very roots.

Some good points Jonkka - the Service park is the one that amuses me. I seem to remember DR I think saying centralised servicing would help cut costs, meaning the Rally would stay in a small area making it easier to televise, Guests and VIPs would be able to be entertained here. Thing is, a lot of the time nothing is happening, especially for the mechanics.
Cut costs for sure, but in the right areas - bring back Gravel/Ice crews, have a wider choice of tyres.
While the WRCar regs were good to start with, they have now run their course. The new regs must enable a Privateer to run one for a reasonable amount.
As for increasing the show and visibility - not sure. Make the cars loud, spectacular and people will come and watch 'The show'. Allow for routes to be more spread out - having events in one corner of a country isn't doing the sport any good. And provide 'value for money' - the GB Rally pass was far too expensive - let's live in the real world please.

[Livewireshock]

They only sure fire method of controlling costs is to have a controlled team budget.

An FIA set figure of X amount of Euros per car for the complete season, to be auditted by separated impartial third party accountants. Basically a projected figure to cover the costs of the season plus 10-15% for unseen costs.

Budgets could be tested as the year progresses or in one model I have seen, the budget is paid upfront, with the organisers giving back a monthly 'allowance'.

Only sporting costs are involved and hospitality and promotional activities are open.

This sort of practice is common here in Australia in all of our football codes. Australia is a relatively small corporate market with four separate styles of professional football being played. It is enforceable and it can bare it's teeth, as many football teams have faced massive fines for trying to breech the salary caps of players with outside contributions and shady backroom deals exposed. Now it is creeping into motorsport here too.

It is attractive to some who like the idea of a known and fixed budget. It is off putting to others who do not wish to disclose their finances and those teams who are more than willing others in order to win.

Restriction of trade and other business issues are also a problem here too, even when those issues conflict with the 'good' of the sport.

I am not too sure how current drivers would like to placed under a salary cap for teams.

[Daniel]

Incidentally, out of those teams all but Mitsubishi also came into top level during that same 10 year period. So in fact, if you compare the situation to 1997 there were only three full WRC teams (Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi) and two more by next year (Toyota and Seat). Not so different from current situation, eh?

Face it, we've witnessed a golden era between 1998 and 2005 (as was case in 1982-1986).
True enough.

I think you forgot Toyota though :) Toyota were competing since the 80's ;)

You could argue that it was the FIA mismanaging the sport that meant none of these new manufacturers came in stayed.

[AndyRAC]

True enough.

I think you forgot Toyota though :) Toyota were competing since the 80's ;)

You could argue that it was the FIA mismanaging the sport that meant none of these new manufacturers came in stayed.

Ah Toyota - now there's a story. Leaving WRC were they were extremely successful - to do F1 - were they had no previous experience. Just so they could compete against Honda - their rival. It's been a right success, hasn't it??
But will they bite the bullet and now pull out? No, it would be dishonourable - not very Japanese.
WRC is Toyota's home - not F1.

[Barreis]

It's all about money.. That's why the companies (factories) are in this sport. They won't put their money for nothing. But for private driver it's nonsense to pay 2 or 3 millions per season cos you are paying them their development and that doesn't cost that money. Jwrc season costs aproximatly 300 000euros. That's how much should cost now wrc season. But wrc looks at f1 and then copy/paste. Here we have Mr.Richards and Mr.Wilson who like money very much. And we have guys like current privateers who are very rich sons and they will ask this Misters how much does it cost. 2 or 3 millions?Why not?! If I have x10 of my money and i can't spend it for life why not to invest 10 procent of my money for adventure of life. Then came Galli who destroyed his bone ok... It's adventure of his life.. Where is money? Loeb, Sordo, Hirvonen, Latvala (now), Solberg, Atkinson and probably Gardemeister are payed.. Duval was. Great. Wrc seson should cost 300 000 euros or GBP and then it should be competetion. But we do not live in dreams...

[jonkka]

I think you forgot Toyota though :) Toyota were competing since the 80's ;)

Toyota got banned after 1995 turbo scandal and only returned in 1997 for selected events and in 1998 for full season. So, as I was referring to full works teams in 1997 and not TTE's competition in it's entirety, comparison is still valid.

Besides, Toyota Team Europe has been competing since 1970's, under various names.


You could argue that it was the FIA mismanaging the sport that meant none of these new manufacturers came in stayed.

Toyota left to move to F1, Seat and Hyundai left because their results did not meet executive's expectations (Hyundai also had some argument with MSD but that's more a result than a cause), Mitsubishi was in financial difficulties as a company.

Skoda and especially Peugeot can partly blame their departure to rules and/or FIA inflexibility.

[OldF]

Jwrc season costs aproximatly 300 000euros.

Then it's cheaper than a season in PWRC. Juho Hänninen's PWRC budget for this year was 500.000 euros, which didn’t include the car.