Anyone else think going to Brazilian Ethonal will negatively affect Iowa

[MDS]

It seems like there is a bit of blow back from the decision to use Brazilian Ethonal over American.

“It’s mind-boggling as to why the league would take this action in an economic downturn. This is a slap in the face to American farmers and workers,” said AFF spokesman Tim AlbrechYou would think this wouldn't play well in Iowa, and with the Nationwide series moving there this year Attendance could really be down at a track that has been a legitimate success for the IRL

I wouldn't be surprised if the the race was protested

http://www.wcfcourier.com/blogs/eby/?p=270

[anthonyvop]

It seems like there is a bit of blow back from the decision to use Brazilian Ethonal over American.
You would think this wouldn't play well in Iowa, and with the Nationwide series moving there this year Attendance could really be down at a track that has been a legitimate success for the IRL

I wouldn't be surprised if the the race was protested

http://www.wcfcourier.com/blogs/eby/?p=270

They want the IRL to buy American?
How about the US Ethanol companies hand over some cash?

They have no shame.
They drop their IRL sponsorship and when they go shopping for another fuel provider the US Ethanol People Complain!

[FormerFF]

Let's be realistic: Corn based ethanol is a bad joke played on all of us, at the taxpayer's expense. The Brazilians are able to create a viable fuel using sugar cane, albeit at an environmental expense. Unless cellulosic ethanol becomes economically possible, there's no point in promoting U. S. ethanol production, so why not use the Brazilian produced stuff? The other option is to use the same cellulosic ethanol that some of the ALMS teams are using.

The ICS could always go back to methanol, which I believe is produced mostly from natural gas.

[indycool]

The news release on it said that the Brazilian company would contract with a U.S. ethanol refinery concern to produce the ethanol for the series. Whoever they wind up with could well be in Iowa.

[994ever]

Aside from the obvious, the fact that the IRL has anything to do with Brazilian ethanol in whatever capacity should disgust anyone who cares at all about the future of the planet. Ethanol is not a viable alternative energy source. It is bad enough when the rainforests are bulldozed and burned for cash food crops, but when it's for the purpose of creating fuel for cars it is that much worse.

The Toronto public, when it finds out about this, and it will find out about it, will not be pleased. Then again since no one cares about the IRL and the race returning has generated zero buzz in the city it may just slip under the radar.

[indycool]

Whoever's pudge it tudges, Andy Granatelli said back in the '70s during the gas crisis that if his turbine had been allowed to run, the thing could run on potato peels. A lot of things can make alcohol. Why Toronto would be concerned about the rain forests for the sugar cane that produces MOST of the fuel for cars in Brazil, I don't understand, but I suppose they could be placated if the IRL just went to some ol' moonshiner in Tennessee who could make enough for a race in nothing flat if it wanted to.

[SarahFan]

besides something for folks to toss around on internet racing forums this will likely be a non-issue

very few will even know...less will even care

[Wilf]

The IRL press release says:

As part of that agreement, we plan on starting our 2009 season with American-produced ethanol.

"Opportunities still exist for American ethanol companies and organizations to continue involvement in the IndyCar Series.


Does anyone really believe they are going to bring ethanol from Brasil to supply a racing series in the US. The stuff can't be piped across a state without contamination problems and they are going to ship it between continents. The trols are again trying to transform a pimple into oozing sore.

[Bob Riebe]

The IRL press release says:

As part of that agreement, we plan on starting our 2009 season with American-produced ethanol.

"Opportunities still exist for American ethanol companies and organizations to continue involvement in the IndyCar Series.


Does anyone really believe they are going to bring ethanol from Brasil to supply a racing series in the US. The stuff can't be piped across a state without contamination problems and they are going to ship it between continents. The trols are again trying to transform a pimple into oozing sore.
It can be moved in sealed vehicles, which already exist.
That makes it a bit more expensive, but still cheaper than the U.S. stuff.
We have all kinds of ethanol crap up here in Minn. and the Dakotas, and the paper has not rare stories of bank-ruptcies and ceased/stalled plans, so U.S. ethanol is not going anywhere fast except maybe into courts.

[nanders]

It is bad enough when the rainforests are bulldozed and burned for cash food crops, but when it's for the purpose of creating fuel for cars it is that much worse.
.


It's been said by the Apex people that their corps don't grow in the Amazon. They're sub tropical crops. So there is no lose of rain forrest.

So "no harm no foul."

[anthonyvop]

The IRL press release says:

As part of that agreement, we plan on starting our 2009 season with American-produced ethanol.

"Opportunities still exist for American ethanol companies and organizations to continue involvement in the IndyCar Series.


Does anyone really believe they are going to bring ethanol from Brasil to supply a racing series in the US. The stuff can't be piped across a state without contamination problems and they are going to ship it between continents. The trols are again trying to transform a pimple into oozing sore.

They can't even import the stuff without incurring a high Tariff to protect thsoe same Iowa Corn growers.

[indycool]

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=12863

[Dr. Krogshöj]

That's what I was just going to post, indycool. The fact is that the IRL didn't drop Ethanol, EPIC ceased operations and no other American ethanol producer was willing to step up. They are going to start 2009 witn American ethanol but in the long term, I'm sure it will have a negative effect on the Iowa race. I wasn't there, but the ABC broadcast made a pretty big deal about the Ethanol connection and it seemed to be a major driving force behind the race.

Anyway I agree with 994ever, sugar cane based ethanol production is a disgrace while corn based ethanol is simply a waste of energy and money, and a political stunt.

[indycool]

Don't know if it even WILL have an effect on the Iowa race. If the Brazilians hook up with an Iowa refiner (or distiller or whatever we call 'em), then the Iowans are involved. Iowa is very big on ethanol......I drove across I-80 through Iowa last summer and E85 is available at every service station about 50 cents a gallon lower than gas. They also have WiFi available at all the rest stops, which I thought was pretty neat.

Even at that, some of those who complain here and elsewhere would think nothing about pulling up to a Citgo station and filling up when its owned by and its gas is produced by the Venezuelan government, of which its head of state advocates assassination of the U.S. President. Or a station with Middle Eastern product, an area that has caused some Americans their lives. Go figure.

[downtowndeco]

I don't understand what the complaint is here. A legitimate sponsor wants to give the IRL real cash to advertise it's product. It's not some promoter disguised as a charity that is using the series for a tax write off. It's not a porno movie company. It's not a business owned by TG that he is using as a write off. It is a legitimate sponsor.

A real sponsor putting real money into AOWR.

Some of you people will never be happy.

IMO you should go watch something else. Then again, you probably aren't watching now anyway, considering most of you swore you'd never watch OWR if CC was gone & TG was the guy running the show. Why don't you stay true to your word?

[MDS]

I don't understand what the complaint is here. A legitimate sponsor wants to give the IRL real cash to advertise it's product. It's not some promoter disguised as a charity that is using the series for a tax write off. It's not a porno movie company. It's not a business owned by TG that he is using as a write off. It is a legitimate sponsor.

I don't think it is a problem, but I see where perception could become a problem at the Iowa race. I've not been there, (Because really, who does go to Iowa?) but I get the feeling its very middle-America simple family/patriotic values kind of place, that values corn production, and Ethanol pretty highly. It's not out of line to think that people who produce corn, the value of which is inflated by the ethanol lobby, would be unhappy to see a south American company stepping into their domain.

I don't see it as a problem, but I could see where corn growers in Iowa would be offended, and given the choice of a Bush race, might decide not to come to the IRL race. But then again, it's Iowa, so what else do people do there on a Sunday?

[mlj]

Posted on AR1:

With lower gasoline prices, ethanol uncompetitive Ironically the IRL signed a deal with a Brazil ethanol producing, and in the process stabbed the USA ethanol industry in the back. Now comes word that Brazil's biofuel industry, that just months ago was being flooded with billions in new investments for vast new sugarcane plantations and gleaming distilleries that churn out the cheapest ethanol on earth, is in trouble.

The global financial crisis has put the brakes on that boom, drying up foreign investment and domestic credit, stalling new projects and prompting cash-strapped ethanol producers to indefinitely postpone expansions. In addition, now that gasoline prices have plummeted, who wants or needs more expensive ethanol that produces horrible fuel mileage?

With oil below $50 per barrel, down more than 60 percent since July, biofuels have become less competitive. But U.S.-made corn ethanol is more expensive than Brazil's sugarcane-based fuel: Oil must top $50 a barrel for it to be cheaper than gasoline. In contrast, Brazilian ethanol companies insist, their fuel is competitive as long as oil sells for more than $40 a barrel. Not when you factor in the lower fuel mileage it isn't.

"I'm still ready to play ball, but the ball disappeared," said former Brazilian Agriculture Minister Robert Rodrigues, whose plans for an ethanol startup were recently put on hold as foreign investors withdrew cash amid fears that a global recession would slow demand for fuel.

One large ethanol maker filed for bankruptcy last week to restructure $100 million in debt it could not pay. Analysts and sugarcane growers predict others will follow, and a leading industry association says 50 percent of new equipment orders have been canceled or postponed.

"We're going to see more bankruptcies," said Eduardo Carvalho, director of the ethanol and sugar unit of conglomerate Odebrecht SA, one of Brazil's biggest companies.

[Wilf]

Posted on AR1:

With lower gasoline prices, ethanol uncompetitive Ironically the IRL signed a deal with a Brazil ethanol producing, and in the process stabbed the USA ethanol industry in the back. Now comes word that Brazil's biofuel industry, that just months ago was being flooded with billions in new investments for vast new sugarcane plantations and gleaming distilleries that churn out the cheapest ethanol on earth, is in trouble.

The global financial crisis has put the brakes on that boom, drying up foreign investment and domestic credit, stalling new projects and prompting cash-strapped ethanol producers to indefinitely postpone expansions. In addition, now that gasoline prices have plummeted, who wants or needs more expensive ethanol that produces horrible fuel mileage?

With oil below $50 per barrel, down more than 60 percent since July, biofuels have become less competitive. But U.S.-made corn ethanol is more expensive than Brazil's sugarcane-based fuel: Oil must top $50 a barrel for it to be cheaper than gasoline. In contrast, Brazilian ethanol companies insist, their fuel is competitive as long as oil sells for more than $40 a barrel. Not when you factor in the lower fuel mileage it isn't.

"I'm still ready to play ball, but the ball disappeared," said former Brazilian Agriculture Minister Robert Rodrigues, whose plans for an ethanol startup were recently put on hold as foreign investors withdrew cash amid fears that a global recession would slow demand for fuel.

One large ethanol maker filed for bankruptcy last week to restructure $100 million in debt it could not pay. Analysts and sugarcane growers predict others will follow, and a leading industry association says 50 percent of new equipment orders have been canceled or postponed.

"We're going to see more bankruptcies," said Eduardo Carvalho, director of the ethanol and sugar unit of conglomerate Odebrecht SA, one of Brazil's biggest companies.

I am wondering how inking a deal with Brazilian ethanol after US ethanol withdrew their support of the league can possibly considered stabbing the US ethanol industry in the back. That is a pretty strong statement. As I read it, it is a pretty simple business deal: US ethanol tells the IRL they were no longer interested in working with them so the IRL found a replacement.

When the IRL was rejected by US enthanol, what were they to do, switch their entire fleet of engines back to methanol or gasoline. US ethanol had to know the position in which they placed the IRL. The Renewable Fuels Association knows full well how this came about adn they are being disingenuous at best.

[MDS]

I am wondering how inking a deal with Brazilian ethanol after US ethanol withdrew their support of the league can possibly considered stabbing the US ethanol industry in the back. That is a pretty strong statement. As I read it, it is a pretty simple business deal: US ethanol tells the IRL they were no longer interested in working with them so the IRL found a replacement.

What you said makes complete sense, is completely logical, and I agree with it 100 percent. However, in my years in marketing I've learned that what reality is doesn't matter a great deal. What you said made great sense, but if the Ethanol wants to draw attention to itself, it can easily spin the events to make it appear as if the IRL outsourcing its Ethanol to a second-world country during an economic recession.

I've learned that its not so much reality that matters, but what people tell other people to think. Most people don't read the news, and if say 20 people protest the IRL race because of its use of Brazilian Ethanol it will probably get some decent media coverage. If I was running their campaign it's what I would advise them to do.

[Wilf]

What you said makes complete sense, is completely logical, and I agree with it 100 percent. However, in my years in marketing I've learned that what reality is doesn't matter a great deal. What you said made great sense, but if the Ethanol wants to draw attention to itself, it can easily spin the events to make it appear as if the IRL outsourcing its Ethanol to a second-world country during an economic recession.

I've learned that its not so much reality that matters, but what people tell other people to think. Most people don't read the news, and if say 20 people protest the IRL race because of its use of Brazilian Ethanol it will probably get some decent media coverage. If I was running their campaign it's what I would advise them to do.

I understand the saying about debating with someone who buys their ink by the barrel. This my experience with Charlotte Eby, the author of the link you posted:

If you had bothered to check you might have learned that the IRL will still be using US ethanol, but it won't be a promotion of US ethanol. The US producers decided to no longer use it as a tool to promote their product and the Brazillian producers stepped up. I doubt you will see any ads on US television promoting Brazillian ethanol other than the partnership type of mentions. However, on Brazillian TV, they will advertise heavily. Do you really think they are going to bring ethanol from Brazil to supply the series when it would be much cheaper to buy it here. Ethanol is ethanol.

It is a shame you didn't bother to even check the IRL website; you didn't even have to talk with anyone! Your farmers deserve better.


She responded with :

Bill,

Read the official statement from the Indy Racing Series here.

http://www.indycar.com/news/

Thanks for your email,
Charlotte


I responded with:

Charlotte - What part of this says they are going to use Brazillian ethanol?

As part of that agreement, we plan on starting our 2009 season with American-produced ethanol.

"Opportunities still exist for American ethanol companies and organizations to continue involvement in the IndyCar Series. The IndyCar Series is pleased to continue to be the only major American racing series fueled by 100 percent fuel-grade ethanol. APEX will use the IndyCar platform to promote a variety of Brazilian products, services and opportunities, including ethanol.



To date she hasn't responded; but then her published statement remains unchallenged so I pushed back with:


You didn't respond; does that mean you agree that there is nothing in the IRL statement anything saying they will be using Brazilian ethanol. It actually says the opposite, at least for the start of the season which occurs some four months after the tariff is supposed to be dropped.

This anti IRL campaign is going to back them into a position where they will have to use Brazilian ethanol instead of just using Brazilian money to buy US ethanol.

I'm done, I just thought you should give the ONE and ONLY sanctioning body that changed their entire competitive fleet over to ethanol a fair shake.

One can only hope they get a bad feeling in their gut and do the right thing.

[indycool]

The first IRL release that came out on the deal said that the Brazilians would be partnering with a U.S. firm to produce the ethanol for the series. AR1 apparently didn't notice that, either.

[NickFalzone]

Are you seriously trying to fact-check AR1? I like the site, but I take everything there with a big grain of salt. As far as this particular mistake, it is a mistake, but partly due to IndyCar's unclear press release.

[indycool]

What's unclear about this? Third paragraph.

http://www.indycar.com/news/index.php?story_id=12829

They're also talking about trade associations competing -- and in some respects, actually partnering -- not the product, ethanol.

One's paying for the exposure. The other's not.

[downtowndeco]

It may be a mistake but AR1 has clearly had an anti IRL bias since day one. Any time he can take a shot he does.


Are you seriously trying to fact-check AR1? I like the site, but I take everything there with a big grain of salt. As far as this particular mistake, it is a mistake, but partly due to IndyCar's unclear press release.

[indycool]

Gee, dd, really? :) :) :) :) :)

[downtowndeco]

Gee, dd, really? :) :) :) :) :)

Yeah, really. : ).

Now someone go ahead and accuse me of being paranoid and jumping to conclusions. After all, not everyone who continually harps on the IRL is a disgruntled CC fan. Some of them are just IRL supporters who would like to see things run a little differently. : )

[nanders]

The way Mark at AR1 will stop taking shots at IndyCar and their management is when IndyCar equals the success and product of IndyCar CART 1994/1995. My guess is, that will be never, or at least not in my lifetime. So I can understand why he is bitter.

[indycool]

Yeah, I suppose he will for a long time, nanders. There are those down south who are still fighting the Civil War.

[nanders]

I remember when .........

[MDS]

Lest anyone thing I'm just trying to stir the pot or being negative, this thing has gained traction in the last couple of days. The Wall Street Journal has picked up on the switch a long with a number of Iowa outlets and alternative fuel trades. Here's just a few I found with a Google news search:

http://www.midwestagnet.com/Global/story.asp?S=9418515&nav=menu1585_4

http://domesticfuel.com/2008/12/02/indy-ethanol-fallout/

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/11/21/pit-stop-ethanol-battles-roar-into-the-indy-500/

http://www.wthitv.com/dpp/news/indiana/ind_wish_IRL_deal_a_setback_for_Indiana_ethanol211 4353


http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20081203/BUSINESS/812030352/1029

[PA Rick]

And we use corn to make fuel. Methanol can be made from coal or natural gas or biomass or paper plant byproducts....

[indycool]

If you buy into the falsehood that corn is being taken out of the mouths of babes to make fuel, then I hope you'll blame the Brazilians for using sugar cane to make fuel and you don't have any frosting on your birthday cake.

[garyshell]

If you buy into the falsehood that corn is being taken out of the mouths of babes to make fuel, then I hope you'll blame the Brazilians for using sugar cane to make fuel and you don't have any frosting on your birthday cake.


It may not be taken directly out of the mouths of babes. Ethanol is made from field corn not sweet corn. It is being taken directly out of the mouths of cows though. Additionally, fields once used for other grains were diverted to corn for ethanol. Those other grains were ones used in products that were destined for the mouths of babes. Walk down the cereal aisle in your local grocery store and you can readily see the effects. The affects were also felt in all products with any significant amount of high fructose corn syrup.

It is no myth that the rise in corn based ethanol had an impact on food prices. There is only so much arable land.

Gary

[indycool]

Gary, I wish I had data on how many bushels of corn were grown, how many went here, how many went there, what the government shipped overseas before and after, what amount of land farmers were paid by the government to lay fallow, etc. I don't. But I didn't find any trouble buying an ear of corn to go with dinner all summer at pretty much the same price as before....maybe a nickel more in the earlier part of the season. And how much effect a drought or a tornado or a disease at Sam's 800 acres in Omaha had on it, I have no idea how that affected it. But, IMO, this is a political tempest in a teapot between an American trade association that went out of business and a Brazilian trade association that didn't over the same product, and has nothing to do with food or has such a minimal effect as not to concern anybody.

[SoCalPVguy]

I think there IS now and will continue to be blow-back on this, and rightfully so. We need to start buying American wherever possible and shunning an American product from Brazil may not sit right with the fans and journalists of middle-america that follow Indy racing. If Indy racing is starting to shed foreign races like Australia and Japan, concentrating on the North American Market, then bringing in a south american sponsor at the expense of a USA sponsor seems like a wrong move.

Having said that I think Ethanol fuels are just plain wrong to begin with. On a global basis, ethanol fuel takes more energy to produce and results in more net polution to the earth than petrochemical fuels, plus the impact on the food supply chain as corn is shifted to fuel use from food is unconscienable.

[garyshell]

I think there IS now and will continue to be blow-back on this, and rightfully so. We need to start buying American wherever possible and shunning an American product from Brazil may not sit right with the fans and journalists of middle-america that follow Indy racing. If Indy racing is starting to shed foreign races like Australia and Japan, concentrating on the North American Market, then bringing in a south american sponsor at the expense of a USA sponsor seems like a wrong move.

Having said that I think Ethanol fuels are just plain wrong to begin with. On a global basis, ethanol fuel takes more energy to produce and results in more net polution to the earth than petrochemical fuels, plus the impact on the food supply chain as corn is shifted to fuel use from food is unconscienable.


On the first paragraph, I believe you need to check your facts. The IRL did not drop the American Ethanol sponsor, they dropped the IRL. I belive that paints a different picture.

On the second paragraph, I agree with you 100%, with one minor exception. There do seem to be a few sources for Ethanol on the horizon that do not compete with food production. Namely algae and switchgrass.

Gary

[garyshell]

Gary, I wish I had data on how many bushels of corn were grown, how many went here, how many went there, what the government shipped overseas before and after, what amount of land farmers were paid by the government to lay fallow, etc. I don't. But I didn't find any trouble buying an ear of corn to go with dinner all summer at pretty much the same price as before....maybe a nickel more in the earlier part of the season. And how much effect a drought or a tornado or a disease at Sam's 800 acres in Omaha had on it, I have no idea how that affected it. But, IMO, this is a political tempest in a teapot between an American trade association that went out of business and a Brazilian trade association that didn't over the same product, and has nothing to do with food or has such a minimal effect as not to concern anybody.


You need to separate the Brazilian vs American fight from the ethanol versus food fight. These are two totally different things.

Regarding the cost of corn on your table, I am not surprised. As I said before corn grown for ethanol is NOT sweet corn, it is feed corn. Look at the commodities prices for corn, wheat, barley etc. Map those against the production output of ethanol and the subsequent fall in production as oil prices plunged and you will see some interesting results.

I have a old business partner who traded commodities for many years. Over lunch last winter he talked about getting back in "the game". He was already making these same plots I talked about above. When corn was bringing more per bushel than it had in years, what do you think was driving this? And when the acres planted with corn were on the rise while wheat, barley and other grain acreage were falling fast, what do you think was driving that? Oil. And not because of the amount used by the farmers, trust me.

Gary

[indycool]

Maybe a "spike," Gary, when gas was $4/gallon. But, IMO, a lot more goes into that than ethanol for fuel instead of feed. Remember the dot.com explosion where everybody was going to make gazillions? A lot of those "piling on" went bust, but the ones that survived are thriving on increasing advantages of the Internet. But, again IMO, this is no more than a bunch of people waving Prohibition-era flags against the barley and hop growers because their product makes the demon beer.

[anthonyvop]

I think there IS now and will continue to be blow-back on this, and rightfully so. We need to start buying American wherever possible and shunning an American product from Brazil may not sit right with the fans and journalists of middle-america that follow Indy racing. If Indy racing is starting to shed foreign races like Australia and Japan, concentrating on the North American Market, then bringing in a south american sponsor at the expense of a USA sponsor seems like a wrong move.


Pure BS. The only reason the IRL turned to Brazil was because the US Ethanol people dropped their sponsorship.
So the IRL is bad for not promoting a product for free?

[garyshell]

Pure BS. The only reason the IRL turned to Brazil was because the US Ethanol people dropped their sponsorship.
So the IRL is bad for not promoting a product for free?

Anthony you are absoutely right. The IRL was not the one who dropped the spnsorship the US Ethanol folks are in serious trouble with the fall in oil prices. If the IRL wanted to continue with Ethanol they had to do something.

Gary

[Cart750hp]

It seems like there is a bit of blow back from the decision to use Brazilian Ethonal over American.
You would think this wouldn't play well in Iowa, and with the Nationwide series moving there this year Attendance could really be down at a track that has been a legitimate success for the IRL

I wouldn't be surprised if the the race was protested

http://www.wcfcourier.com/blogs/eby/?p=270

American ethanol is more expensive than Brazilian ethanol.

Just last Friday's market, the market of price of a premium gas is cheaper than a gallon of ethanol. In LA, gas for premium here runs at $1.15 while ethanol is $1.45. A year and a half ago, a gallon of ethanol was $.25. Shipping, tarrifs and fee's will still be much cheaper to use other country's ethanol than American's.

[MDS]

With Mansfield shutting down I hear NASCAR is going to move the Memorial weekend race from Mansfield to Iowa, so now there will be a truck race a month before the IRL race there and NNS race five weeks after it. In a down economy, with a small controversy about Brazilian Ethonal. It all equals out to not being good