Loeb is the greatest ever WRC driver - Marcus Gronholm [Archive]

I am evil Homer

12th November 2008, 09:57

Yes. His out and out speed is immense, he's the best tarmac driver ever and has adapted to every type of gravel rally with huge success. It's not just the pure statistics of rally wins, wins in a season etc it's often the way he has gone about winning those events.

People say...ah no Safari, sprint rally etc but he'd have won those as well. If he'd been in a Delta Integrale in the early 90s I think he would have won as many events. A great driver is a great driver, full stop. The fact he can jump into an F1 car and get within 1 second of it's regular driver within a few hours shows he is an immense talent that I'm not sure we will see again to such a degree in a long time

But it's also a team..Elena and he have the best partnership with total trust. The way they make the pace notes and change them during the course of an event mark them out as above the competition.

The there's his mental approach which is better than anyone he always drives to within his limits which is why he doesn't crash that often.

Finni

12th November 2008, 11:01

Bosse has competed against all those drivers he mentions in the interview and he knows he is better than all of them. Seb is different case and that's why Marcus rates Seb above all those other drivers.

I actually agree Marcus. In my view Marcus is the best finnish driver in last 15 years - as fast as Loeb on gravel but not as smart as a driver. In terms of statistics there is huge difference between those two but in terms of real performance, I think, Marcus' last year was indicative (Loeb won narrowly, mainly due to asphalt).

Tomi

12th November 2008, 11:47

It's easy to agree with Bosse in this case.

sal

12th November 2008, 11:56

As we are talking the WRC rather than the World Rally Championship as it was prior to when the marketing men got hold of it I would say yes.

You cant deny the mans achievements and the way the team has been built around him just like Mitsu was with Makinen and even Ferrari with Schumi. Citroen are legendary for their preparation and thoroughness and their hard work has allowed Seb to concentrate on the winning bit of the job

However I still believe you cant compare his achievements to those of drivers prior to when the teams were forced to do an entire championship and therefore picked and chose thier events. If he had moved teams like say Rohrl did and then had the same results my hat would be well and truly off!

Duby

12th November 2008, 12:50

the only one that i might rate high in this list is - Juha Kankunen...

why ? couse he is the only champ that won both with group-B and the "new era" cars .

duby

WRCfan

12th November 2008, 14:03

I agree with a post which mentioned using different cars like Walter Rohl and being a winner in a range of cars. The WRC of today and the WRC of old are so different and pitting drivers of both era's against each other is very hard.

Modern WRC, yes Loeb is a pure class act and is for sure the most sucessful. Although for me the likes of Vatanen, Rohl, Mikkola, Kankkunen, Sainz will always for some reason hold more of a special place over Loeb.

Also someone mentioned about Kankkunen being a winner in both Group B and WRC machines. That is something special. Miki Biasion is similar although in the Group B machines and Group A. I agree with what Marcus said totally though. If anyone knows, he knows for sure!!!

pino

12th November 2008, 14:09

As we are talking the WRC rather than the World Rally Championship as it was prior to when the marketing men got hold of it I would say yes.

From wrc.com :

Marcus Gronholm, one of the most successful WRC drivers of the modern era, believes that 2008 World Rally Champion Sebastien Loeb is the greatest driver in the history of the sport.

So I am not sure Marcus is only talking about WRC, that's why I disgree with him. ;)

DonJippo

12th November 2008, 15:03

DIMI44

12th November 2008, 15:10

Loeb is the most succesfull driver.... YES,greatest NO because a comparison with the others WRChampions is impossible.

Donney

12th November 2008, 15:29

If someone like Gronholm says so I am prone to believe it.

koko0703

12th November 2008, 15:43

I don't know if Loeb is the greatest, but I think Citroen/Loeb/Elena combination is the greatest combination in the history of WRC. I personally think Kahkkunen, Carlos, or Burns might have achieved similar level of success as Loeb if he had team built around them for their entire career, but I can only imagine....

Brother John

12th November 2008, 15:59

Loeb is a great driver but I also voted no because we never saw him in another team. The most of former champions performed in several teams with other cars. At the moment you can say, Citroën is the greatest!

Tomi

12th November 2008, 16:41

The most of former champions performed in several teams with other cars.

And usually they changed to better cars when switched team.

dyfi1

12th November 2008, 16:53

I voted no. Loeb very successful I agree. Four times champion gets my vote :p :

Woodeye

12th November 2008, 19:23

Yes. It's really easy to agree with Bosse on this one. I don't want to speculate "what if he would have driven in the '80" and so on. Just look at the stats.

I really proud that I've been able to witness his career from beginning in the sport that I love. Many have been critizing the the sport is boring to watch because of Loeb, but that's not the case. It's the FIA who is trying to kill the sport by using every way possible.

cut the b.s.

12th November 2008, 20:29

I voted no not because I don't rate Loeb as a great driver but because whole idea of comparing drivers from different era's just don't make sense IMO. ?

In this case would it not be more fair not to vote?
Maybe the poll should really have a 3rd option, agree, disagree and disagree with trying to make comparisons like this.

Finni

12th November 2008, 22:14

I voted no not because I don't rate Loeb as a great driver but because whole idea of comparing drivers from different era's just don't make sense IMO. And when you think about it, what else would Marcus say having been beaten several times by Loeb... How would it make him look if he says anything else than Loeb is the greatest ever?

I think Marcus has good grip to speak about perfoirmances of Tommi, Carlos and Colin. As Loeb himself has said Grönholm beated and outpaced those drivers with ease when he came in for a full drive. I have no slightest doubt that Marcus wouldn't have at least paralleled Tommi even in Tommi's good Mitsu years.

There can be always said that Tommi, Carlos and Colin were over their peak when Marcus owned them. Probably so but it's likewise good to remember that Marcus basicly paralleled Loeb at age 38. Tommi was 37 when he retired and he was minutes off the pace.

Loeb is obviously the best of modern time but it's little bit annoying that he has had constantly the best car. That's killer combination. If Loeb had been driving unreliable Peugeot or crap Subaru we would have had much more interesting situations.

Corny

12th November 2008, 23:11

just too bad Marcus did not beat him last year.. He came so close :(

sollitt

13th November 2008, 03:30

In this case would it not be more fair not to vote?

Not at all. If you do not agree with polls such as this then the only logical vote is a NO vote.

Unquestionably Loeb is the best of the current crop. And his achievements, statistically, are unequalled. He is therefore the most successful driver of all time.

But the "greatest"? That's another story altogether.

AndyRAC

13th November 2008, 07:53

Not at all. If you do not agree with polls such as this then the only logical vote is a NO vote.

Unquestionably Loeb is the best of the current crop. And his achievements, statistically, are unequalled. He is therefore the most successful driver of all time.

But the "greatest"? That's another story altogether.

I'd agree with this. I'm a big Loeb fan, and he has the most Titles, wins, all the records, etc
But the Greatest, mmm? Not sure about that - the sport is completely different nowadays - and not for the better. However, the small amount of articles in the media I have seen, imply that his achievements are 'tainted' by the lack of competition and the sorry state of the WRC. That's not his fault.

BDunnell

13th November 2008, 10:33

The key question is whether he would have been such a force in days gone by. I think all the evidence suggests that he would. Can anyone imagine someone of Loeb's style and ability not having been able to win a five-day RAC or the Safari in the Group B era? I can't. The recent lack of opposition he's faced doesn't detract from his basic ability, as much as it might cast doubts over his achievements.

I certainly can't think of a better all-round competitor than Loeb. Sainz probably comes closest in terms of having been quick and consistent on all surfaces and in all conditions. Kankkunen was rubbish on tarmac. Rohrl rarely competed on events he didn't like in the most successful part of his career, so it's hard to measure his absolute ability as an all-rounder. The likes of Alen, Blomqvist, Salonen and Mikkola were, it's often forgotten, fast on tarmac as well as gravel. Toivonen was surely on the cusp of absolute greatness when he was killed. And Colin McRae shouldn't be forgotten, for he showed his pace in all conditions.

Comparisons are very difficult because of the changing nature of world rallying and the requirements of drivers in different eras, but I don't think that classing Loeb as the best of all time requires too great a leap of imagination. I would just like to see him being challenged more, by the events and other drivers.

AndyRAC

13th November 2008, 11:09

sal

13th November 2008, 13:23

A certain Mr Rohrl proved himself no mean slouch behind the wheel of a saloon and sportscar so the precident has been set and he proved he could win rallys in rwd,4wd, supercharged, turbo charged and normally aspirated cars.

I think the one thing Loeb will never be able to prove (and it's the changed format of the World Championship and not his fault,) is that he would have been able to have achieved such dominance of the sport when it's very nature dictated a balance between outright speed and the need to nurse a car with limited or road side servicing over 5 days. Also some of the events not having notes and changing their routes year on year (not the same "tracks" every time) would have challenged him more.

I maintain if you are going on stats then he is the best and the man can drive which I'm sure he will prove in other formulas should the desire still exist but the greatest ever...?

cut the b.s.

13th November 2008, 18:38

Torsen

13th November 2008, 20:12

all of yall that say he's not need to put down the bottle or the blunt :-P

sollitt

13th November 2008, 20:21

Check the meaning of 'logical', to answer a different question to the one being asked is definitely not logical.

Nonsense.

The question is "do you think Loeb is the greatest driver of all time?"

If one believes that this cannot be defined, because of the number of factors already raised here, then the answer to the question is 'no'.
It's not a "different question" at all. It's a sound answer to the question that was asked.

What you're suggesting is that we ask "if you are of the belief that we can compare WRC drivers of different era, do you think Loeb is the greatest driver of all time?"

That's ... a different question.

J4MIE

13th November 2008, 20:40

If this.....if that...... doesn't matter really. I'm 100% sure he could have won in 1976, 1986, 1996 as well as 2006.

MrJan

13th November 2008, 20:56

Is he alone in being the greatest? I'm not so sure. Is he at the same level as any other driver you would consider? No doubt.

This is a bloke who tanked McRae and Sainz in their twilight years and has consistently been better than his closest rivals. I mean I seriously rate Marcus but reckon that even if him and Loeb were in equal cars then Seb would win more than he lost.

As has been said it's always difficult to compare eras, especially when the current crop of drivers isn't exactly a hot bed of legends (compared to the mid '90s when we saw Didier, Carlos, Colin, RB, Tommi, KKK, etc. etc. Also the sport is different now, back in the days of Clark and Timo events were much tougher and longer so the talent was in getting the car to the end as much as it was being quickest.

Ultimately my vote is yes, purely because I just couldn't bring myself to vote no. Seb is obviously an amazing talent (surely no one can dispute that) has been wiping the floor with his oppo. Could he do it against Vatenen or Timo? I don't know, but I reckon it'd be f***ing good fun to watch it :D :D :D

BDunnell

13th November 2008, 21:11

A certain Mr Rohrl proved himself no mean slouch behind the wheel of a saloon and sportscar so the precident has been set and he proved he could win rallys in rwd,4wd, supercharged, turbo charged and normally aspirated cars.

He did, but would he ever have come to grips with those events he didn't like had he been obliged to compete in them all? This is as much of a 'what if?' as anything to do with Loeb and his record.

And, as I hinted earlier, it wasn't as if Röhrl was unique in his achievements. I think Stig Blomqvist is overlooked in this context. He won rallies in cars of numerous different configurations (and let's not forget how incredible he was in the F2 Skoda Felicia, just over a decade ago!), and on all surfaces. His performances in the Quattro on the Circuit of Ireland and Ulster rallies in the 1983 British championship were outstanding, albeit hampered by a temperamental car. Didn't stop him beating Bertie Fisher's Manta after a great battle in Ulster, though, and thereby taking the Quattro's first international tarmac rally win. I say this for no other reasons than interest, and to prove that Röhrl wasn't the only great all-rounder of his era, let alone others.

I think the one thing Loeb will never be able to prove (and it's the changed format of the World Championship and not his fault,) is that he would have been able to have achieved such dominance of the sport when it's very nature dictated a balance between outright speed and the need to nurse a car with limited or road side servicing over 5 days. Also some of the events not having notes and changing their routes year on year (not the same "tracks" every time) would have challenged him more.

All very true, and while I have spoken up for Loeb here, we do know that the drivers of past eras also got a fair amount of experience of short 'sprint' events, often through competing in various national championships. But while I doubt the ability of some drivers of recent years to have been able to dictate the balances you rightly mention, somehow I don't think this of Loeb.

BDunnell

13th November 2008, 21:18

Ultimately my vote is yes, purely because I just couldn't bring myself to vote no. Seb is obviously an amazing talent (surely no one can dispute that) has been wiping the floor with his oppo. Could he do it against Vatenen or Timo? I don't know, but I reckon it'd be f***ing good fun to watch it :D :D :D

Absolutely. Given a time machine, I'd put them and others up against each other on the Manx and the RAC in equivalent equipment. Then we'd know who was boss. Possibly, as Röhrl himself reckoned, the answer would be Tony Pond...

cut the b.s.

13th November 2008, 21:27

Nonsense.

The question is "do you think Loeb is the greatest driver of all time?"

If one believes that this cannot be defined, because of the number of factors already raised here, then the answer to the question is 'no'.
It's not a "different question" at all. It's a sound answer to the question that was asked.

What you're suggesting is that we ask "if you are of the belief that we can compare WRC drivers of different era, do you think Loeb is the greatest driver of all time?"

That's ... a different question.

Maybe logic is a different thing in 'middle earth', but if you even take the time to read your own post as I have just done you will see that you contradict yourself.

I accept your opinion, but the question you are answering is not the one being asked.

I think the greatest complament to Loeb of all has to be that he is the 1st rally driver ever to have had the rules altered to hinder him

TKM

14th November 2008, 05:09

Sulland

14th November 2008, 11:38

As I've said before, stick him in one of those POS Subarus and if he can win in that, then yeh, he's definitely the greatest. Otherwise I'll reserve my judgement until I see him in a vehicle from another manufacturer.

There's no doubting his talent though.

I agree with you in this, but it is very hard to compare drivers from sp different eras.

For me car control is a big factor in this, and Jean Ragnotti is a clear candidate when it comes to that aspect, but he has not won any world championships, but is still a great rally driver !

Tom206wrc

14th November 2008, 13:42

My answer is without any doubts: YES !!!! :cool:

Nenukknak

15th November 2008, 19:18

No of course he's not, he's a product of this time, and he's brilliant. But the sport has little to do with the rallying that has long gone. People who actually think he's the greatest should have their heads examined IMO, again IMO.

Loeb has been driving a superior car of the same brand in the same team since he started. He's been able to compete in 14-16 or whatever events per year. Events that are nothing compared to the events in the past. He's not only been able but actually has to (regulation wise) drive all these events. Todays cars are virtually undestructible compared to cars of the past.

Now let's compare that to the old days, shall we.

Drivers changed teams frequently as cars did. Drivers were lucky if they got to drive eight events per year.
Even most of the best drivers did not get to drive all the events in a year. Kankkunen didn't get to drive much on tarmac early in his career. Fiat/Lancia would only let the scandinavians drive in Finland or Sweden, so Rohrl never got to drive those events early in his career, to choose not to drive these events than in a car such as the Audi S1 or E2 is something I can understand. What if both these drivers (just as an example) had gotten to drive all the rallies from early on, I would like to see if KKK would still have been so rubbish on tarmac, and if Rohrl wouldn't have won more different events.

About the cars and event. Because the events were tougher and the cars constructed/fabricated less advanced, mechanical influence was much more of an issue in the old days. You had to care for the car much more.

And then of course the handling of (especially) the group B cars. Absolute monsters of which only the best where somewhat driveable.

Then there is the night stages, the long stages/events, etc. etc.

Because of all these reasons, Loeb can never be the greatest, the greatest since 1997? Yes. But the greatest of all time? Maybe but probably not.

Rally/WRC is I think the sport that is least comparable over the ages from any sport (motorsport or regular) out there, there simply is no comparing. Loeb is certainly a great driver, but to name him as the greatest of all time, would do injustice to all the men and women who drove in years long past.

Kaps

15th November 2008, 21:37

Ok, even if I agree with all this, but that would rule absolutely anyone out from being named as "the greatest rally driver ever", right?

alleskids

15th November 2008, 21:58

As a Loeb fan, my nature is to say YES, but I agree on some of you, that Loeb has advantage of the low level of competition, not like the older days with 3,4, or 5 title contenders, when a win was a bigger achievement, not a controling issue. Loeb is the best of his era, of the WRCar era 2002-2008. The best ever should be one of the 70s, 80s era, with longer, harder rallies, multiple title contenders. My vote would be Kankkunen, or Mikkola, or Sainz. Loeb must first prove himself in other cars and other teams, before he can be called the best ever. And it really makes my heart bleed by saying this as a big Loeb fan :)

BDunnell

16th November 2008, 01:33

No of course he's not, he's a product of this time, and he's brilliant. But the sport has little to do with the rallying that has long gone. People who actually think he's the greatest should have their heads examined IMO, again IMO.

In which case, how can you say that the answer is 'of course he's not', given that no comparison can be made? That's just as ridiculous an argument as saying 'of course he is'. Opinions on this sort of question work both ways, so you can't dismiss one side by saying that those who disagree with you 'should have their heads examined'.

About the cars and event. Because the events were tougher and the cars constructed/fabricated less advanced, mechanical influence was much more of an issue in the old days. You had to care for the car much more.

In which case — and it's hardly as if your comment above hasn't been raised before in this debate — one should place everybody who featured at the front of WRC events in that era ahead of the likes of Loeb, merely because of the era they drove in.

And then of course the handling of (especially) the group B cars. Absolute monsters of which only the best where somewhat driveable.

Then there is the night stages, the long stages/events, etc. etc.

What human qualities do you regard as particularly unique in the drivers that competed successfully in that era, then? I don't buy into this part of your argument because the qualities that enabled Kankkunen, Mikkola, Alen, Röhrl et al to be stars of that era surely aren't unique to them.

I say that as a huge admirer of those who were the stars of Group B, from which period there are loads of 'what ifs' — what if Tony Pond or Jimmy McRae had ever driven regularly for a truly competitive team, for example?

Rally/WRC is I think the sport that is least comparable over the ages from any sport (motorsport or regular) out there, there simply is no comparing. Loeb is certainly a great driver, but to name him as the greatest of all time, would do injustice to all the men and women who drove in years long past.

Why is rallying such a special case? I think you treat the sport with a bit too much reverence there. Golf has changed enormously through technical and physical advances; so has F1. Those are just a couple of examples.

BDunnell

16th November 2008, 01:39

Sorry, forgot to respond to this bit...

Kankkunen didn't get to drive much on tarmac early in his career.

Neither did Alen, yet he managed to become an excellent tarmac driver. Neither did Blomqvist, yet, as I said earlier, he was able to beat drivers with great tarmac records in a highly competitive British championship, driving a car that wasn't ideally suited. I think one has to accept the fact that some drivers never got the hang of asphalt, and Kankkunen, for all his brilliance, was amongst them.

ShiftingGears

16th November 2008, 04:55

The best drivers have the motor skills, self confidence, mechanical understanding, and balance which translates into any vehicle they drive. Which is why the best drivers will still be the best whether the car is front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or has any differing handling characteristic to what they currently drive.

Loeb would definitely be one of the best (the best?) should he have been in the Group B era.

Nenukknak

16th November 2008, 12:16

Ok, even if I agree with all this, but that would rule absolutely anyone out from being named as "the greatest rally driver ever", right?

Yep!, for rally it will be very difficult. But there is of course also the fact of what constitutes "the greatest driver".

IMHO the greatest driver cannot be a person who's driven the same top rally car since the beginning of his career and probably to the end of his career. In rallies that......, well I mentioned that before haven't I.

Loeb is a great driver, he wins and is very consistent in that. I just don't think you can compare rallying then to rallying now, and that's why Loeb will never be the greatest in my book. This has more to do with the current climate of the WRC than with Loeb, but is a very big factor in my book.

Nenukknak

16th November 2008, 13:00

@BDunnell

Let's agree to disagree. WRC has changed much more than any sport out there. Golf and F1 regardless of technical advances has remained relatively the same especially over the last 30 years. In WRC everything has changed, it;s a complete different sport.

With regards to the tarmacdrives. Blomqvist never drove much WRC tarmac rallies and when he did his results weren't super, logically. KKK drove his first WRC tarmac event in 1988 when he was already two times WC., in 1989 he became third, and then he didn't drive any till 1994 . And you wonder why he was never great on tarmac. The fact of the matter is drivers didn't get a chance to drive all the rallies.

Loeb is the most successful driver when you look at the numbers. But is he the greatest. For all the reasons I mentioned no, IMO. Is that all due to Loeb, no this is as much due to the era in which he drives. In my book one of the greatest will always be one of the old days. And this is my last post in a discussion which cannot be discussed, sorry I wrote something in the first place.

BDunnell

16th November 2008, 14:48

@BDunnell

Let's agree to disagree.

Fine, but...

WRC has changed much more than any sport out there. Golf and F1 regardless of technical advances has remained relatively the same especially over the last 30 years. In WRC everything has changed, it;s a complete different sport.

I simply cannot agree with this, nor see what the reasoning is behind it. Yes, rallying has changed a lot in the last 30 years, but I don't understand how it can be deemed to be unique in this. I'm not sure it's possible to make a judgment on whether one sport has changed more than another.

In my book one of the greatest will always be one of the old days.

Deep down, I feel the same, but my head tells me that we now know enough of Loeb for me to think that he is probably up there with the stars of previous eras.

And this is my last post in a discussion which cannot be discussed, sorry I wrote something in the first place.

Don't apologise! A healthy, animated argument is nothing to be sorry for.

Nenukknak

16th November 2008, 19:26

BDunnell

16th November 2008, 19:36

Just to clarify why I think wrc has changed more than other sports. Other sports have "suffered" from technological improvement. Of course. But the sport has stayed the same.

F1 cars still drive over circuits they drove upon I don't how long ago. And sure there used to be longer circuits (Nordschleife). But for a long time the principle of the sport has stayed the same. Cars got more advanced, rules were adapted, cars got advanced in a different way. But the basics of the sport has been the same.

The basics of rally were speed and endurance. Endurance factor is gone, no more night stages, call it no more crazyness, whatever. Of course wrc has also had the same technological development as other sports. But for me the whole sport has changed too much, to compare drivers from different eras.

But the basis of rallying hasn't changed. The fact is that it is still decided on the basis of setting as fast a time as possible on each special stage. A far more fundamental change, in my opinion, than anything we've seen in recent years was the switch long before that to all-special stage rallies.

And there were shorter sprint-type events 25 years ago, notably in the British championship in which so many top drivers of the day competed. Those drivers were just as good on the shorter events as they were on the longest of the world rallies. There is nothing to suggest that the likes of Loeb would in some way be utterly incapable of doing likewise today if they were competing in the same mix of events. They would, I'm sure, be perfectly capable of adapting.

TMorel

17th November 2008, 09:28

It seems to me to be impossible to ever answer this, as stated we don't know how Seb would have coped with having a bigger selection of top teams to pick and chose from, likewise we don't know how Ari or Björn would have coped with the high pressure media-centric 100% sprint rallying of today.

Instead, I think the only thing we can do is compare the driver to his fellow competitors on a year by year basis, maybe by awarding them points based on where they finish in each rally and then the one with the most points is "the greatest driver that year"

Daniel

17th November 2008, 13:54

Not at all. If you do not agree with polls such as this then the only logical vote is a NO vote.

Unquestionably Loeb is the best of the current crop. And his achievements, statistically, are unequalled. He is therefore the most successful driver of all time.

But the "greatest"? That's another story altogether.

:up:

I have to agree with this.

It really is in some ways a silly thing to think there is a greatest rally driver of all time. The sport has had so many distinct eras where different drivers have been dominant and some have had more competition than others. The thing is you can't compare drivers objectively because of so many factors. Would Latvala and Mikko have been also rans in the group b and group a eras or would they have been multiple title holders?

I prefer to talk rallying gods and talk about guys like Alen, Juha, Carlos, Colin, Tommi, Marcus, Loeb and so on. Guys who in a good year with a good car consistently showed that they could be far better than the competition.

kakus

17th November 2008, 16:01

Test's Loeb F1 results at Barcelona today:

http://img2.hostingpics.net/pics/679146Sans_titre_1.gif

Good time for a rookie

Doon

17th November 2008, 16:40

Here it says he was 8th, but from his time, he was actually 6th!

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/testresults.php?testID=1002

Well done Seb!!! With a few more miles in the bag he would dominate that sport too. Would be wicked if he took a year out and won the F1 title....wouldn't want him the leave Rallying though, he is the best...EVER!

Barreis

17th November 2008, 17:01

Results tell everything!!!

xavier

17th November 2008, 17:27

[quote="Loeb"]
L'equipe: "The record of five world titles, combined with the wins automatically makes you the best rally driver of all time?

Seb Loeb: I am proud to hold these two records, the most important in my eyes, but you cannot compare eras. That does not mean anything, even if, for some mathematically, I&#8217]

from the man himself...

Helstar

17th November 2008, 18:38

With a few more miles in the bag he would dominate that sport too.
And in 7-8 years, a strange thread would appear, like "Loeb is the greatest ever F1 driver" http://www.buonpernoi.it/forum/icon_smile_rotfl.gif

GET REAL

ShiftingGears

17th November 2008, 22:10

And in 7-8 years, a strange thread would appear, like "Loeb is the greatest ever F1 driver" http://www.buonpernoi.it/forum/icon_smile_rotfl.gif

GET REAL

Yeah, at 42 years old :p :

jparker

17th November 2008, 22:16

cut the b.s.

17th November 2008, 22:45

My vote was "no". I beleive that high tech has taken away too much off the driver's role in today's rally cars. To be convinced otherwise, I have to see all WRC drivers cometing in old rally cars. If Loeb wins, then I will give it to him.

And if yesterdays drivers couldnt handle todays cars then what?

I guess this is a totally subjective poll, really no right or wrong answers except voting when you dont have an opinion either way ;-)
I voted yes, but I am often wrong :-) That I voted yes was not because of the total number of wins, event or championship, but the manner he has been winning them, particularly early in his career, from he sat in a WRC he has been up there. In early 03 he was rated a tar boy and McRae and Sainz were to be the main guys on the loose, he was with them pretty much straight off, none of this from him about learning events and gaining experience that we get now from some others.

jso1985

17th November 2008, 23:11

Oh that's not what I meant, for me this (who's the greatest driver) is a subject that cannot be discussed.

Just to clarify why I think wrc has changed more than other sports. Other sports have "suffered" from technological improvement. Of course. But the sport has stayed the same.

F1 cars still drive over circuits they drove upon I don't how long ago. And sure there used to be longer circuits (Nordschleife). But for a long time the principle of the sport has stayed the same. Cars got more advanced, rules were adapted, cars got advanced in a different way. But the basics of the sport has been the same.

The basics of rally were speed and endurance. Endurance factor is gone, no more night stages, call it no more crazyness, whatever. Of course wrc has also had the same technological development as other sports. But for me the whole sport has changed too much, to compare drivers from different eras.

then you could say F1 has lost it's endurance factor too... races are shorter now...
Surely thw WRC has changed a lot, but it's still rallying, certainly not the best kind of course...

but! as I agree a lot that comparisions between drivers of different times are not possible to do, the argument to write off Loeb as an "also ran" saying he didn't drive any old car is just plain stupid... what makes you think Loeb or Grönholm couldn't drive and win on those cars? in the end they got the best of what they had available and pushed to the limit their cars.

certainly Loeb is the best of his era, of all times, can't be compared but to say Kankkunen or Alen are better than him just because they drove the old cars is just plain stupid

pino

18th November 2008, 05:10

from the man himself...

...who said himself he cannot be rated as the best ever ;)

jparker

18th November 2008, 07:53

And if yesterdays drivers couldnt handle todays cars then what?

I guess this is a totally subjective poll, really no right or wrong answers except voting when you dont have an opinion either way ;-)
I voted yes, but I am often wrong :-) That I voted yes was not because of the total number of wins, event or championship, but the manner he has been winning them, particularly early in his career, from he sat in a WRC he has been up there. In early 03 he was rated a tar boy and McRae and Sainz were to be the main guys on the loose, he was with them pretty much straight off, none of this from him about learning events and gaining experience that we get now from some others.

Well, your explenation just proved that the old scool drivers like Sainz and McRae were OK with the new tech stuff, but the oposite we don't know.
Also, why do you think the yesterdays drivers will have problems with today's cars? From what I know, at the start you push a button and Bingo, the car takes off by itself. In old cars, downshifting was quite complicated procedure, now you just move your fingre few times. Yes, I understand that no mater what changes, someone will be better then others (like Loeb is), but what kind of skills today rallying is testing? To have big balls?

playmo

18th November 2008, 17:46

Daniel

18th November 2008, 18:50

sollitt

18th November 2008, 21:34

You're quite right Daniel. It's a ridiculous statement.
And I think that's a point that needs made.
Extremists aside, those who are saying that we cannnot classify Loeb as the greatest ever are not suggesting that he wouldn't be in contention or that he wouldn't have excelled in another era.
I'm quite sure that with his drive and determination, his skill, his fitness and his many other attributes he would have been a front runner in any era whether it be Grp B, Grp A or even way back in Grp 4.

Daniel

18th November 2008, 21:38

I'm quite sure that with his drive and determination, his skill, his fitness and his many other attributes he would have been a front runner in any era whether it be Grp B, Grp A or even way back in Grp 4.

Good point. What Playmo said is like saying Dickens would never have been a good author in this age of computers because he wasn't used to computers or that a modern author would never have been a good author back when Dickens was around. Talent is talent no matter what.

Ghostwalker

18th November 2008, 21:40

Plymo, its quite natural for a driver to adjust to the type of car he/she is driving and drives them in a certain way because of their specification

But that doesnt mean that he cant drive another car in a good way. And Loeb is know for his skill to adapt to new situations.

cut the b.s.

18th November 2008, 23:02

Well, your explenation just proved that the old scool drivers like Sainz and McRae were OK with the new tech stuff, but the oposite we don't know.
Also, why do you think the yesterdays drivers will have problems with today's cars? From what I know, at the start you push a button and Bingo, the car takes off by itself. In old cars, downshifting was quite complicated procedure, now you just move your fingre few times. Yes, I understand that no mater what changes, someone will be better then others (like Loeb is), but what kind of skills today rallying is testing? To have big balls?

My mention of Loeb/Sainz/McRae in 03 said refering to loose performance 'he was with them pretty much straight off', maybe I should have completed that statement pointing out how later in the season he was beating them on the loose also, on GB where McRae normally shone he was totally out classed by Loeb. Sainz was pretty good in the modern type cars, but McRae was nothing more than ok(by his standards) in them

playmo

18th November 2008, 23:22

Give you credit on previous, but apart from talent (wich he's proven to have, and it's been already disscused previously), and adaptability (wich is directly related to talent), the circumstances sorrounding he's carreer (rivlas mistakes, reliability, team/car, co-driver relation, all disscused previously too) are the reasons on wich i base my HYPOTESIS.
Might be stupid on someone else's mind but, hey!: i'm open to different points of view...
Besides, i've got enough of him winning everything (yeah i know: no competition) and think the class would be a tad more attractive without all that sweeping the so called opponents, that little matter might be biasing my judgement....
Cheers.

And to answer the poll: no he's not.

Brother John

21st November 2008, 07:19

A.F.F.

21st November 2008, 08:11

Somehow I doubt he is scared of equivalent cars. :)

Scared of boredom, maybe.

ShiftingGears

21st November 2008, 08:13

Rallye world champion Sebastien announces his resignation, should the FIA replace the current World rally Cars by Super2000 or group N car.
NO INTEREST: The Super2000 does not provoke Sebastien solves.
„We should get the Super2000 or group n, it would not be any longer interesting to drive “, so the champion. „We should get S2000+, it would be no problem for me. Engine performance should remain approximately alike and that is the crucial. “
Source: http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/d/n/d/2008/11/20/loeb-hat-keine-lust-auf-s2000/index.html
The best ever(?) I.M.O. he should drive with the cars that according to the regulations of the F.I.A are allowed in WRC.
Then maybe he can prove that he will be the best ever!
Or is he frightened to drive in equivalent cars such as the others? :dozey:

It's not like the talent pool is going to get any deeper with the move to S2000. So why wouldn't Seb destroy everyone like he has done for the past few years?
He's shown he has the talent to adapt to cars better than anyone else in WRC. That wouldn't stop if he chose to do S2000.

I think he's jack of the rule changes and the pathetic state of WRC. He's not afraid of anyone in rally.

ShiftingGears

21st November 2008, 08:18

I think Loeb could do no more than DECENT in an old group B car, because of his driving style, and the fact that he's acustom to electronics doing one third of the car's driving; and just a tad better on old group A car.

Yeah!!

Just like Schumacher can't drive without traction control.*

*Ignoring all the years of Schumacher being the class of the field even when he didn't have traction control.

Face it. Great drivers will always be great drivers, in any car. Because they can maximise what they've got from their machinery.

Incidentally, Red Bull think he's fast enough for F1.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72194

And F1 cars have more power than Group B did, and no traction control. Whats your excuse there?

Daniel

21st November 2008, 09:43

Somehow I doubt he is scared of equivalent cars. :)

Scared of boredom, maybe.

:up:

kleisj

21st November 2008, 15:12

Well I voted Yes. Up to 5 months ago I had some strong objections for the reason that he didn't compete against many classy drivers like Carlos, Colin Juha, Burns, Tommi, Auriol when they were at their peak. When the competition I think was much stronger and immense. Maybe because I didn't want to believe that my favorite rally heroes where long gone from rallying... !
But history is written differently from what I actually believe. Even if he was competing against them I don't think the situation would be much different. He has broken almost every existing record on WRC... He has a good car and a great team but he made full use out of it. And this relationship worked both ways for mutual benefit (for Loeb and for Citroen). And truth is that noone could ever much him even with the same car...! Gronholm was his closest rival but never managed to deprive him a title. Even when Loeb lost 3 races due to bicycle injury...! And Gronholm was just GREAT!
Loeb is still active , he has written a story in WRC with golden letters and I hope that he will still continue his world record breaking performances....! I cannot remember a top driver going so flat out that noone could match him and on the same time having minimum mistakes and DNFs...! Minimum mistakes going ultra flat out! Just unbelievable don't you think?

I think is the GREATEST we have ever seen and he has raised the stakes too much , put the benchmark too high for a next generation driver to reach!

And I am actually really happy that I will not have to hear or read about him but I am able to enjoy watching him work at the special stages. As much I enjoyed the drivers that I mentioned above. I hope he will stay in WRC for many years to come giving us thrills spectating him!

Is just the Loeb phenomenon!

COD

21st November 2008, 15:21

Rallye world champion Sebastien announces his resignation, should the FIA replace the current World rally Cars by Super2000 or group N car.
NO INTEREST: The Super2000 does not provoke Sebastien solves.
„We should get the Super2000 or group n, it would not be any longer interesting to drive “, so the champion. „We should get S2000+, it would be no problem for me. Engine performance should remain approximately alike and that is the crucial. “
Source: http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/d/n/d/2008/11/20/loeb-hat-keine-lust-auf-s2000/index.html
The best ever(?) I.M.O. he should drive with the cars that according to the regulations of the F.I.A are allowed in WRC.
Then maybe he can prove that he will be the best ever!
Or is he frightened to drive in equivalent cars such as the others? :dozey:

Such crybaby can stop if he wants to. He probably has never even tried a S2000 car. Do we need another 1986 before the current drivers and teams realise that these monster winged machines have too much cornering speed and are beginning to be dangerous?

Finni

21st November 2008, 16:10

Even when Loeb lost 3 races due to bicycle injury...! And Gronholm was just GREAT!

In that season Grönholm actually lost about 3 races due to technical glitches of new Ford so your example is bit twisted... It's a fact that Grönholm had equal machinery only in 2007 (fast and reliable).

Brother John

21st November 2008, 16:43

Such crybaby can stop if he wants to. He probably has never even tried a S2000 car. Do we need another 1986 before the current drivers and teams realise that these monster winged machines have too much cornering speed and are beginning to be dangerous?

At last also still someone here has his eyes and ears open. :up:
Almost nobody wants to see the current WRCCARS disappearing here on the forum.
For a long time I say, them are too fast, but there must apparently firstly happen more accidents like the one with Galli and Duval before them become awake here!
Oke nobody must agree here with my opinion.
I simply do not want that the F.I.A. wait to take decisions till afterwards there happened something again like with Toivonen.
The current WRCCARS are already faster than the old grout B cars!
If Loeb want to go fast, I see him gladly moving to F1.

Finni

21st November 2008, 18:25

Such crybaby can stop if he wants to. He probably has never even tried a S2000 car. Do we need another 1986 before the current drivers and teams realise that these monster winged machines have too much cornering speed and are beginning to be dangerous?

Loeb is not saying that S2000 is entirely wrong. Loeb says that S2000 is ok if there will be more power in the engine - modified S2000. I also support that idea. Current S2000 car are similar to group N cars -> boring to watch.

RAS007

21st November 2008, 18:44

Yes. His out and out speed is immense, he's the best tarmac driver ever and has adapted to every type of gravel rally with huge success. It's not just the pure statistics of rally wins, wins in a season etc it's often the way he has gone about winning those events.

People say...ah no Safari, sprint rally etc but he'd have won those as well. If he'd been in a Delta Integrale in the early 90s I think he would have won as many events.

I agree with that, but only if Loeb was competing against the same dearth of talent that is out there now. Would Loeb have won 5 titles in a row, say throughout the 90s, competing on every rally against Sainz, Auriol, Makinen, McRae, Burns, Kankkunen, Gronholm? Unlikely.

Apart from Loeb, there is no amazing talent out there right now, which is why he is winning everything, and killing the sport in the process. Even 10-15 years ago, there were as many as 5, 6, 7 or more drivers who were capable of winning an event. That is just not the case now.

kleisj

21st November 2008, 19:03

In that season Grönholm actually lost about 3 races due to technical glitches of new Ford so your example is bit twisted... It's a fact that Grönholm had equal machinery only in 2007 (fast and reliable).

After Loeb was out of the championship did Gron had a really good opportunity to take the title? He needed to take 4 straight wins which he didn't manage after having the probs in Australia. I m just saying that the deficit to Loeb was already too big. Yes he lost some rallies due to technical glitches but he had a clear opportunity at the end of the season which he missed it unfortunately. Noone can say that Loeb didn't deserve the title, and the same applies for Gronholm if he had won the crown.

kleisj

21st November 2008, 19:19

I agree with that, but only if Loeb was competing against the same dearth of talent that is out there now. Would Loeb have won 5 titles in a row, say throughout the 90s, competing on every rally against Sainz, Auriol, Makinen, McRae, Burns, Kankkunen, Gronholm? Unlikely.

Apart from Loeb, there is no amazing talent out there right now, which is why he is winning everything, and killing the sport in the process. Even 10-15 years ago, there were as many as 5, 6, 7 or more drivers who were capable of winning an event. That is just not the case now.

This how I was seeing it as well. But truth and history sais otherwise. He competed with both Carlos and Colin and out-performed in the same car (don't tell me why this happened is just a fact). He fought two championships with an equal on driving capabilities driver named Gronholm he won again (i m talking for the Focus years).
Yes for sure help him the fact of less equal level drivers except Gron but this is not his fault. He have showed great commitment and I think more or less his success would have the same path again. He is on WRC 6 or 7 years and won 5 titles! What impresses me the most is how he can manage to combine his flat out speed with steady efficient driving with very very few mistakes. Take any driver you want from the ones you rate more high and see how many DNFs and accidents they had. Actually take the accidents cause reliability of the machinery is another story.

Nenukknak

21st November 2008, 20:04

I agree with you on the fact that that is what impresses me most about Loeb. His speed but also his incredible consistency of this speed. He truelly is an exceptional talent, I certainly agree.

However, "take any driver you want from the ones you rate more high and see how many DNFs and accidents they had." This is IMO a flaw in reasoning and something I've been saying troughout this thread.

In older years (even group B) they used to drive stages of 100+ km on rallies, not all rallies of course. Driving shorter stages with a WRC without making a mistake must be simpler than driving long stages with a group B car. Simply because of the focus that is required.

Could Loeb drive a group B car and win in those days, probably if not definitely yes. But would Loeb have shown the same statistics as he does nowadays, certainly not.

Let's face it WRC is less brutal and demanding as it was in the old days. The statistics Loeb drove together cannot be copied to the old days. Therefore Loeb for me is not the greatest. This has more to do with the era Loeb drives in than with the class of Loeb as a driver.

For me WRC is less "rally" than f.i. group B, therefore the greatest RALLYdriver cannot come from this era. This is my opinion and as such just as taste not up for debate. I can understand how others see it differently but I don't.

Damn, posted my thoughts again in this thread when will I learn.

What Loeb is showing however is fantastic and shows great talent and skill. Too bad for him that the top is spread so thin, otherwise his accomplishments woud have meant more.

COD

22nd November 2008, 10:55

Loeb is not saying that S2000 is entirely wrong. Loeb says that S2000 is ok if there will be more power in the engine - modified S2000. I also support that idea. Current S2000 car are similar to group N cars -> boring to watch.

More power maybe, but turbo kills sound which in currnt S2000 is one of the greatest element. Also they want bigger wings. NOOOO, wings are the main reason the current cars don't do sideways. Also the suspension travel should be limited.

Andy Gregory

30th November 2008, 23:11

Loeb has had it easy.

It's a case of best current driver with the best car in a championship lacking any world class competition from manufacturers and drivers. It's hardly surprising Loeb holds the record for most amount of victories of all time - he's had it easy at a time when there are more events in a season than ever before. It's been this way for years, yes the stats suggest he is the best of all time but I beg to differ.

Imagine what the stats would read if the following drivers/car combinations had taken part in a 15 event season: Sainz in the Celica GT4, Mcrae in the Impreza 555 Gr.A, Gronholm in the 206 WRC, Toivonen in the Delta S4, Makinen inthe Lancer Evolution 5 onwards.... Just a few examples of almost unbeatable combination of driver and vehicle.

If there were 15 events per season between 1996 - 2000, Tommi Makinen would've easily acheived 35+ rally victories.

Loeb. Good - yes. The greatest - no!

Tumbo

1st December 2008, 00:13

I think that Loeb is great, no doubt about that - his titles, rally wins and sheer dominance of the sport in recent times show that. But the greatest of all time is a huge call. I still can't understand how it was for years there was constant criticism of Makinen from many on here as a 'one team man' who though he had 4 titles couldn't be considered even the equal of Kankkunen as he had yet to show what he could in a different team (which ultimately he did) yet whenever it is mentioned that all Loeb's success has come in a team built around him ppl say bravo???! Seems as if he's been given an easier time than Tommi was and in a much different championship - shorter rallies, lack of true endurance events like safari, less manufacturer entries, less WRCs......

For me a strong no, Loeb is brilliant no doubt but not the greatest, easily can be said in the same breath as Juha, Tommi, Walter, Henri et al, but too many differences between now and then to truly compare and given the flak we gave Tommi for only succeeding in one car Loeb deserves the same consideration

jparker

1st December 2008, 00:45

My mention of Loeb/Sainz/McRae in 03 said refering to loose performance 'he was with them pretty much straight off', maybe I should have completed that statement pointing out how later in the season he was beating them on the loose also, on GB where McRae normally shone he was totally out classed by Loeb. Sainz was pretty good in the modern type cars, but McRae was nothing more than ok(by his standards) in them
OK, I see your point, but still, old drivers have been tested with new cars, but not vice versa.
The point I'm trying to make is, today high tech cars are narrowing the scope of tested skills. So, what drivers need to do? To master less skills, but to master them to perfection. Personally I don't like this formula, not at all. That's why I would like to see Loeb tested for more skills. I'm not saying he's going to fail, not at all, but you can't give him the crown without knowing that for sure. In that regards, I agree with BJ about the S2000 cars.

Andy Gregory

1st December 2008, 01:29

You can't judge Loeb a better driver than Makinen, Sainz and McRae based just on performances in 2003.

Makinen put in a few good results with the Impreza but failed to shine as he did in the Mitsubishi glory days. Sainz was super quick in the early 90's (Celica GT4/Impreza 555) but seemed to loose his edge in about 96/97. As for Colin, I think his lack of pace towards the end was a combination of general disinterest and the fact that he never really got to grips with the Xsara WRC.

Furthermore, I read some posts earlier saying that Colin couldn't deliver in WRC machinery. This, of course, is nonsense. He was right on the pace with Makinen between 97-00 in the Impreza WRC. He could've taken a couple more world titles between these years if it wasn't for technical problems with the Subaru. Between 00-02, Colin was on the pace again in the Focus WRC, this time frequently exchanging fastest times with Gronholm in the 206 WRC. Colin could've taken another world title if he'd backed off a little in GB 2001. That was what I loved about Colin though - the all or nothing approach.

Simmi

1st December 2008, 15:21

This is a great thread to read it is good that most people have grasped the fact the question is totally subjective.

The thing I like about Loeb (and why I voted yes), is that throughout his career has he broken records in many different areas of the sport. It's the achievements along the way like when he won in Sweden in 2004. At the time who expected him to do that?

Small things like winning every stage in Corsica 2005. First time it had been done. Sure that rally was stupidly short and had about 12 stages, but the thing about Loeb was that he consistently did the best with what was put in front of him. You can't fault him for that.

I fully believe that if you put Loeb in a MKII Escort, Quattro or Delta then he wins in these eras. I dont think you can say Loeb is a product of his times, because drivers from previous years were products of their own. People have said he wouldn't be able to dominate in the Group B era but I think that is missing the point somewhat. He has consistently shown he is quick to adapt to any changes. His first rally in a works WRC (Sanremo '01) he finishes second straight out of the traps.

Loeb has ticked off the boxes in his career one by one (another one could be winning in Wales this weekend and 11 wins in a season). You have to take your hat off to the sheer numbers Loeb has accumulated. He has in excess of 540 stage wins, and if you look at his points finishes to podium finishes ratio (i think it is something like 72 podiums in 79 points finishes) it is scarily consistent.

Plus I think if you factor in his speed in prototypes with a 2nd place at Le Mans, plus his brilliant showings in F1 tests. You could make a very solid case for Loeb.

jparker

1st December 2008, 22:08

I fully believe that if you put Loeb in a MKII Escort, Quattro or Delta then he wins in these eras.

So, lets make him do that then, S2000 is offering great opportunity to prove he's the best.

RAS007

2nd December 2008, 19:06

I still can't understand how it was for years there was constant criticism of Makinen from many on here as a 'one team man' who though he had 4 titles couldn't be considered even the equal of Kankkunen as he had yet to show what he could in a different team (which ultimately he did) yet whenever it is mentioned that all Loeb's success has come in a team built around him ppl say bravo???! Seems as if he's been given an easier time than Tommi was and in a much different championship - shorter rallies, lack of true endurance events like safari, less manufacturer entries, less WRCs......

+1

Agree 100%.

Simmi

2nd December 2008, 19:49

So, lets make him do that then, S2000 is offering great opportunity to prove he's the best.

I really wish he would stick around for the new era. Somehow though I feel even another season of dominance in S2000 wouldn't convince people.

It is not in the man's nature to need to prove he is the best. Like some people have said in this thread I dont think he is threatening to leave because he feels he will lose under the new regs.

I also dont think Seb shouldn't really have made the threat to quit when I feel his mind is already made up to go circuit racing. Why try to get involved in something that probably wont concern him when he is in DTM or Le Mans?

Brother John

2nd December 2008, 21:39

:rolleyes: Nice fotos from the greatest driver ever. :laugh:

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8953/n7476947711695358508gu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6936/n74769477116953597535ph3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

Tomi

2nd December 2008, 21:49

So, lets make him do that then, S2000 is offering great opportunity to prove he's the best.

I dont think he has anything to proof anymore, he has done a very good carreer on the sports absolute top, and he is still going on.
Or do you think Ronaldo should go to div5 to show that he can play too?

N.O.T

2nd December 2008, 21:51

So, lets make him do that then, S2000 is offering great opportunity to prove he's the best.

i agree winning village events against local village people in underpowered cars its what it takes to prove your self as the best...

Daniel

2nd December 2008, 22:54

BDunnell

3rd December 2008, 14:05

So, lets make him do that then, S2000 is offering great opportunity to prove he's the best.

I was really disappointed by his threat to quit if S2000 comes in, for I would have thought that such cars would be 'interesting to drive' in the best sense. Maybe he just equates interest with speed and power.

Tomi

3rd December 2008, 15:37

I was really disappointed by his threat to quit if S2000 comes in, for I would have thought that such cars would be 'interesting to drive' in the best sense. Maybe he just equates interest with speed and power.

Did you read the whole aritcle? If average rally fan knows that the top class will not be S2000 like it is today, he knows it for sure also.

jparker

3rd December 2008, 22:40

I dont think he has anything to proof anymore, he has done a very good carreer on the sports absolute top, and he is still going on.
I don't agree. Nobody can deny the unusual career of Loeb and his engagement with Citroen. I have the feeling the Citroen are capable of making another Loeb very quickly if they have to. The total domination of money and high tech machinery makes them unbeatable, not Loeb.

Or do you think Ronaldo should go to div5 to show that he can play too?
The league has nothing to with this, it's about Ronaldo/ball and Loeb/car, and while ball is just ball, rally cars are not.

cut the b.s.

3rd December 2008, 22:43

I don't agree. Nobody can deny the unusual career of Loeb and his engagement with Citroen. I have the feeling the Citroen are capable of making another Loeb very quickly if they have to. The total domination of money and high tech machinery makes them unbeatable, not Loeb.

The league has nothing to with this, it's about Ronaldo/ball and Loeb/car, and while ball is just ball, rally cars are not.

It is pointless for anyone to try and reason with you, you have shown that your mind is closed to reality.

jparker

3rd December 2008, 22:49

Did you read the whole aritcle? If average rally fan knows that the top class will not be S2000 like it is today, he knows it for sure also.
What you want and what you believe, doesn't make it true. S2000 may change a bit, but never going to be as is today.
I know that all Finns like the formula "expensive car with few privileged drivers" so they can shine, but that's going to change. If not, then i don't see any future in WRC. We are all witnessing what that formula brings to the sport nowadays.

jparker

3rd December 2008, 22:56

It is pointless for anyone to try and reason with you, you have shown that your mind is closed to reality.
Ok, let's see what reality the feature will bring to rallying.
BTW, what happened to the Pastrana reality?

Tomi

3rd December 2008, 23:05

What you want and what you believe, doesn't make it true. S2000 may change a bit, but never going to be as is today.
I know that all Finns like the formula "expensive car with few privileged drivers" so they can shine, but that's going to change. If not, then i don't see any future in WRC. We are all witnessing what that formula brings to the sport nowadays.

A load of complete nonsence again, nothing new. Why dont you ask your rally comission member what its going to be, then you dont have to pull stories from the air??

A.F.F.

3rd December 2008, 23:51

I know that all Finns like the formula "expensive car with few privileged drivers" so they can shine, but that's going to change. If not, then i don't see any future in WRC. We are all witnessing what that formula brings to the sport nowadays.

I think you're hilarious :laugh:

DonJippo

4th December 2008, 06:28

I know ...

No you don't know.

Daniel

4th December 2008, 06:37

What you want and what you believe, doesn't make it true. S2000 may change a bit, but never going to be as is today.
I know that all Finns like the formula "expensive car with few privileged drivers" so they can shine, but that's going to change. If not, then i don't see any future in WRC. We are all witnessing what that formula brings to the sport nowadays.

All Finns? Nice way to generalise!

Do all Bulgarians know precisely zero about rallying?

jparker

4th December 2008, 08:16

sorry for irritating you guys, you can thank Tomi for that ;)

Tomi

4th December 2008, 10:01

sorry for irritating you guys, you can thank Tomi for that ;)

How about if you self take the responsibility about what you write, instead of blaming others.

A.F.F.

4th December 2008, 10:12

Thank you Tomi for irritating me :up:

Tomi

4th December 2008, 10:14

Thank you Tomi for irritating me :up:

Your welcome :)

jparker

4th December 2008, 15:38

Thank you Tomi for irritating me :up:

Is Finnish language so different from English, or you are just kidding?
Just to clarify, you have to thank Tomi (who intentionally tried to irritate me on the S2000 subject without particular reason).
So, you have to thank Tomi for the fact that he made me irritate you, so you don't have to thank Tomi for irritating you, you have to thank him for making me irritate you. I'm not saying I did irritate you, but just in case.

DonJippo

4th December 2008, 15:48

Is Finnish language so different from English, or you are just kidding?

A.F.F. kidding hell no, never met more serious person in my life. He is so serious that it irritates me...

Woodeye

4th December 2008, 17:43

Just to clarify, you have to thank Tomi (who intentionally tried to irritate me on the S2000 subject without particular reason).
So, you have to thank Tomi for the fact that he made me irritate you, so you don't have to thank Tomi for irritating you, you have to thank him for making me irritate you. I'm not saying I did irritate you, but just in case.

After that I have no idea who irritated who. :laugh:

A.F.F.

4th December 2008, 22:12

A.F.F. kidding hell no, never met more serious person in my life. He is so serious that it irritates me...

You're welcome :)

Brother John

5th December 2008, 07:32

I think i´l move to Finland, i love this Thread with the Finnish members. :D

ste898

7th December 2008, 18:16

I voted NO to Loeb being the greatest driver of WRC because it is a insult to the top drivers like makkinen Sainz Vatanen Kankunen McRae Burns etc etc to say Loeb is great

Daniel

7th December 2008, 18:22

I voted NO to Loeb being the greatest driver of WRC because he's French and drives a French car

Fixed it for you :p

Pretty much all those other drivers have come out saying how great Loeb is so your statement is pretty much incorrect.

ste898

7th December 2008, 18:24

Fixed it for you :p

Pretty much all those other drivers have come out saying how great Loeb is so your statement is pretty much incorrect.

Well I'm sticking too it!!!

Sure he can win 17-19 stage strolls in the forests but could he win a proper event like those drivers did!!!

Daniel

7th December 2008, 18:29

Well I'm sticking too it!!!

Sure he can win 17-19 stage strolls in the forests but could he win a proper event like those drivers did!!!

I bet when Ari and co were around people were saying the same crap. What makes Loeb less able to win longer events? It's a complete fallacy to say that rallies were harder back in the mid 90's or 80's or 70's. Rallying is rallying. It's different to the way it was but what makes a winner is still very much the same. Car control and a cool head. If anything rallies like those we have these days probably suit someone like Colin (RIP) who didn't have the consistency to take title after title whereas Loeb could have driven @ 95% for whole rallies and taken lots of wins back in the Group A days.

But keep up your silly argument and when Loeb is gone you'll be happy to be watching lesser drivers. Your loss dude.......

ste898

7th December 2008, 20:31

Ghostwalker

7th December 2008, 20:33

IMO the thing that makes Loeb so successful as driver is his combination of speed and very few errors.

A.F.F.

7th December 2008, 21:46

Loeb simply is the greatest driver.... of his era.

Tumbo

7th December 2008, 23:53

the above comment is the most truthful

BDunnell

8th December 2008, 00:12

I bet when Ari and co were around people were saying the same crap. What makes Loeb less able to win longer events? It's a complete fallacy to say that rallies were harder back in the mid 90's or 80's or 70's. Rallying is rallying. It's different to the way it was but what makes a winner is still very much the same. Car control and a cool head.

Interesting point. I think rallies today are less challenging than those of 25 years ago, but is it just that the challenge is different today, and more geared towards going flat out? I will always cherish my memories of the cars, drivers and events of those seasons gone by far more than anything I see now, though, because I feel that the challenges of the past are more fundamental to why I love(d ?) rallying, and that the sport was just more interesting then. It's easy to forget that there have always been flat-out sprint-style events — the 1000 Lakes was one, albeit over several days and nights!

This might seem like a rather odd thing to say, but I think that one of the most important moments in rallying was when Tommi Makinen won the 1996 Safari, because it was such a break with the past. He was the first person to drive that event at 'European speeds', and proved that the Safari could be treated just like any other rally. With hindsight, Makinen in effect turning the Safari into a sprint showed that rallying was changing.

ShiftingGears

21st December 2008, 04:31

I for one will never say future drivers are lesser drivers.....some like you may but well thats life!!

Do you always sign off arguments by accusing others of your own logical shortfalls?

WRCfan

21st December 2008, 05:26

At this point in time the names of Sainz, Vatanen, Rohrl, Mouton, Mikkola, Salonen impress me more, and I personally hold these drivers higher than Loeb.

Although in 20 years time Loeb could be added to those names. It's not until something is gone that you realise how good it was. Watching him today is good, but after he is really gone will people say "wow, he was something insanely spectacular".

Until that time I think none of us will really know how much of an effect he has had on WRC.

Daniel

21st December 2008, 10:13

Although in 20 years time Loeb could be added to those names. It's not until something is gone that you realise how good it was. Watching him today is good, but after he is really gone will people say "wow, he was something insanely spectacular".

I think that's more to do with modern cars though.

WRCfan

21st December 2008, 10:23

Daniel

21st December 2008, 10:24

The modern cars are boring compared to the cars of old.....I don't think it is anything to do with the cars....Loeb has a clean and fast style, more F1 than rally, and I think it's his sheer speed that makes him spectacular.

But he has that style because the current cars don't reward it anything other than smooth driving.

WRCfan

21st December 2008, 10:28

Put him in a car of old and I think he would have the spectacular style of the older drivers because the cars had to be driven like that. The WRCar's are of course straight line compared the older ones.

This is kind of like one of those trick questions where no one answer is right, it's all about how you argue your point. Much like the world of international relations haha.

Fischer

21st December 2008, 16:10

Loeb is no ordinary rallychampion, he is simply the smartest driver rallying has ever known. The guy just outsmarts the rest with his calculating way of driving, it's almost like watching a mathematician calculate his way through a rallystage.
Best thing that can happen now is if he moves to F1 and shows the arrogant F1 drivers a thing or two, instead of wasting his talent against kids like Hirvonen and Latvala.

Magnus

21st December 2008, 16:30

But he has that style because the current cars don't reward it anything other than smooth driving.

In the end I believ smooth driving is the key to handling just abt any car; sliding is always negative, be it rallycross, or F1.

jparker

21st December 2008, 19:15

Put him in a car of old and I think he would have the spectacular style of the older drivers because the cars had to be driven like that. The WRCar's are of course straight line compared the older ones.

This is kind of like one of those trick questions where no one answer is right, it's all about how you argue your point. Much like the world of international relations haha.

You think? This threat is all based on assumptions. Currently Loeb has no record to be on top. When he does, then we can continue this conversation.

BDunnell

21st December 2008, 19:32

Put him in a car of old and I think he would have the spectacular style of the older drivers because the cars had to be driven like that. The WRCar's are of course straight line compared the older ones.

This is a very good point. Some of the responses posted in the 'Spectacular drivers' thread were interesting in this regard because, with respect to those who wrote them, they showed that some people don't recognise how almost everybody looked spectacular by today's standards when they were in the cars of old that didn't handle as well as today's. I mean, Walter Röhrl was mentioned — a great driver, undoubtedly, but not especially spectacular in comparison with others of the era. This is one reason he was so successful. Yes, he looked spectacular in the Sport Quattro E2, but so did everybody because the car itself was so spectacular. Some people think Tony Pond was a spectacular driver, but I think he was rather in the Röhrl mould, and perhaps looked more spectacular than his style was because it was difficult not to put on a dramatic show while trying to go as fast as possible in a Nissan 240RS in Corsica, or a Rover Vitesse on the Isle of Man. For my money, in terms of spectacle, old footage from the early 1980s really marks Ari Vatanen, Henri Toivonen and Stig Blomqvist out.

So, I think your comment about Loeb's style needing to be adapted to whatever car he was in holds a lot of truth. All great drivers who have had to drive cars of different types and been successful in them — Vatanen and Markku Alen being excellent examples — have been forced to adapt. This is why I really hope that Loeb sticks with the WRC in its new era, because I'm sure he'd be spectacular and successful in an S2000 Citroen of some sort, too.

BDunnell

21st December 2008, 19:33

You think? This threat is all based on assumptions. Currently Loeb has no record to be on top. When he does, then we can continue this conversation.

You say it's all based on assumptions, yet in saying that you ignore the factors that definitely exist in Loeb's favour in the argument, namely the numbers of rally and championship wins. These give him, in one sense, a 'record to be on top'.

driveace

21st December 2008, 19:36

I think that Loeb is so good because he did an appreticeship in smaller powered cars like the Saxo.he did the same championship as Duval did.I honestly think that this is the best way to come up through the ranks,starting in the smaller classes.rather than the way Mathew Wilson has done starting off in powerful cars ,
I think with the smaller powered cars you learn the TRADE by having to pedall very fast DOWNHILL and that is where I think Loeb is good !

jparker

22nd December 2008, 07:06

You say it's all based on assumptions, yet in saying that you ignore the factors that definitely exist in Loeb's favour in the argument, namely the numbers of rally and championship wins. These give him, in one sense, a 'record to be on top'.
Not really, a record is a record, and Loeb doesn't have it.

GigiGalliNo1

22nd December 2008, 07:43

Speaking about putting Loeb in an Old car....

http://www.rallybuzz.com/loeb-audi-sport-quattro-s1/

"I was not a fan of rallying in the 70s and 80s, because I only truly discovered that period when I began my career in the 90s. I do not know much about the history of rallying in the 70s and 80s as that was a different era.

But there was one car that left no one indifferent. What car? the Group B Audi Sport quattro S1, which was a dream. But today, our cars go much faster than they did during that time and I think our WRC cars are much more pleasant to drive. So I have no nostalgia!""

jparker

22nd December 2008, 08:22

It's not only the old cars that matters, it's about driving other WRCars as well. When somebody like Loeb wins so easy with no effort so ever, one may ask, is he really that good, or he drives a car that nobody else has. Carlos Sainz was successful with other cars, so he proved it's him that makes the difference. I also believe Loeb will have success with other cars, but "I'm from Missouri show me".

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 08:48

Not really, a record is a record, and Loeb doesn't have it.

Huh? What record does Loeb not have? All time wins? Nope? Titles? Nope?

I'm beginning to wonder if you're talking about vinyl records.....

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 08:49

Tomi

22nd December 2008, 08:55

I'm beginning to wonder if you're talking about vinyl records.....

Lol, not bad :)

cali

22nd December 2008, 09:01

Not really, a record is a record, and Loeb doesn't have it.

:rolleyes: ???? Have you been in coma for the last 6-7 years?

jparker

22nd December 2008, 09:22

Loeb has broken all records with one car. If that car is superior then the rest, then Loeb is not the greatest. Is is so difficult to understand that?

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 09:23

Loeb has broken all records with one car. If the car is superior then the rest, then Loeb is not the greatest. Is is so difficult to understand that?

Carlos and Carlos also drove the same car and couldn't get the same sort of results. I know they were in their twilight years but they were still beaten quite soundly. What could Loeb have possibly done better? Gone and driven for a crap team? :confused:

jparker

22nd December 2008, 09:34

What could Loeb have possibly done better? Gone and driven for a crap team? :confused:
Why not? That's were driver's skills can show up.

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 09:40

Why not? That's were driver's skills can show up.

No. That's where a good drivers career dies.....

jparker

22nd December 2008, 09:54

No. That's where a good drivers career dies.....
Well, there are few examples of the opposite. It's all about team with potential that need a good driver to fill the gap.

cali

22nd December 2008, 10:01

Loeb has broken all records with one car. If that car is superior then the rest, then Loeb is not the greatest. Is is so difficult to understand that?
Loeb has beaten every teammate (aging Carlos for example, McRae) as well as every opponent in WRC. What proof do You need? It really does not matter if he has driven Citroen for all of his career or not. Important is that he has been almost unbeatable, You cannot deny that. The filed of opponent drivers has been very strong throughout of his carreer - Mäkinen, Solberg, Sainz, McRae, Märtin, Bugalski (on tarmac), Panizzi (was tarmac king fo a while), Duval, Sordo etc. The list goes on ...

And he is still quite young, could double his record if has the motivation to continue...

cali

22nd December 2008, 10:02

No. That's where a good drivers career dies.....

Daniel, i actually sometimes have to agree with you :D

WRCfan

22nd December 2008, 10:05

You think? This threat is all based on assumptions. Currently Loeb has no record to be on top. When he does, then we can continue this conversation.

Yeah of course it is based on assumptions!! That is why I used the phrase "I think". Go back and read the post properly, then we can continue this conversation!

jparker

22nd December 2008, 11:31

Once again for people the don't get my point, I don't question Loeb's achevments and skill, but he just haven't acheved what some others have done.

Brother John

22nd December 2008, 11:41

Once again for people the don't get my point, I don't question Loeb's achevments and skill, but he just haven't acheved what some others have done.

I agree with you and told it often, Citroën is the best car at the moment and the other Citroën drivers or not allowed to drive faster! :p :

jparker

22nd December 2008, 11:57

I agree with you and told it often, Citroën is the best car at the moment and the other Citroën drivers or not allowed to drive faster! :p :
Thanks that you agree with me, but that's not what I'm trying to say.
Many drivers have succeeded driving other cars, Loeb has not. That's just a plain fact. Everyone is free to judge how important that is.

Brother John

22nd December 2008, 12:16

Thanks that you agree with me, but that's not what I'm trying to say.
Many drivers have succeeded driving other cars, Loeb has not. That's just a plain fact. Everyone is free to judge how important that is.

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0016.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=scared/scared0016.gif) I know what you mean and for me he will never be the greatest! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=scared/scared0012.gif)

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 12:28

I agree with you and told it often, Citroën is the best car at the moment and the other Citroën drivers or not allowed to drive faster! :p :

You seem to forget Sordo's stagetimes in Rally GB and on tarmac rallies.

But sure if it's suits your Anti-Loeb/Citroen agenda then keep on saying it :laugh:

OMFG Citroen have special tyres!!!!!!!!!

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 12:30

Tomi

22nd December 2008, 12:32

I agree with you and told it often, Citroën is the best car at the moment and the other Citroën drivers or not allowed to drive faster! :p :

Thats propably true, but rally privateers has never had the best equipment compaired to works guys, i agree also that Citroen is propably the best car, its just the pathetic stuff that a driver should move somewhere else to proove something that is ridiculous, and before he does everything is nothing but speculation.
Yesteday it came from tv a good program about Grönholm, they spoke a little about Toyota/Sainz contract agreemets as well, interesting stuff.

jparker

22nd December 2008, 12:51

Thats propably true, but rally privateers has never had the best equipment compaired to works guys, i agree also that Citroen is propably the best car, its just the pathetic stuff that a driver should move somewhere else to proove something that is ridiculous, and before he does everything is nothing but speculation.
Yesteday it came from tv a good program about Grönholm, they spoke a little about Toyota/Sainz contract agreemets as well, interesting stuff.
Did you read my last post, or your eyes are on your ass?

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 12:52

Did you read my last post, or your eyes are on your ass?

Did you read what he said or is your inner ear attached to your ankle?

jparker

22nd December 2008, 12:55

Did you read what he said or is your inner ear attached to your ankle?
So, what did I miss?

Tomi

22nd December 2008, 13:37

Did you read my last post, or your eyes are on your ass?

No, is there some reason i should?

WRCfan

22nd December 2008, 13:46

I think jparker has issues understanding other peoples posts, as well as thinking that every reply in this thread is a direct reply to one of his.

It's NOT!

Helstar

22nd December 2008, 16:30

Daniel

22nd December 2008, 16:47

Well, the truth is always in the middle. Loeb has the best car, but probably he is the best driver too.

As I said in another post, he just needs to prove to be a legend by doing something crazy ... like beating people in a S2000 in Monte 2009 with a Citroen S1600, or going to F1 directly :p !

Very much so :up:

The thing people often forget that he finished 2nd in his first event in a WRCar and the Xsara was very much in development at the time. This wasn't against paydrivers and a few good drivers like today. This was at the height of competition in the WRC. The list of drivers he beat reads like a who's who of rallying for the 10 years before that event. http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=result&rallyid=24

I would have loved to have seen him drive an S1600 in the Monte and it was rumoured but sadly won't happen :bigcry:

jens

22nd December 2008, 18:08

I have noticed that it has been said here like Citroen is the best car in WRC. May I ask then, what makes the car in your opinion better than Ford's?

WRCfan

23rd December 2008, 01:06

The car isn't better than the Ford's I don't think. Marcus proved this by being parked up Seb's @ss all season long and beating him fair and square at times.
If Seb was in a Focus dominating then everyone would be chirping on about how much faster the Focus was than the C4.

Helstar

23rd December 2008, 04:20

I have noticed that it has been said here like Citroen is the best car in WRC. May I ask then, what makes the car in your opinion better than Ford's?
I think you've seen both cars 'live', isn't it ? Seeing in tv doesn't give you the same perception. I think the main difference is the engine. Better speed and acceleration, no doubts. It appears to have a lot more HPs compared to the other cars.

The car isn't better than the Ford's I don't think. Marcus proved this by being parked up Seb's @ss all season long and beating him fair and square at times.
If Seb was in a Focus dominating then everyone would be chirping on about how much faster the Focus was than the C4.
On slow gravel/snow you can easily see that the Focus has a great lateral grip, and the difference was there in 2007 when Marcus could fight back and win here and there, and even Hirvonen could beat Loeb too (sometimes).
But this year the C4 has improved a lot. We can safely say that in slow gravel they are equal, while in fast rallies the C4 takes the upper hand by now ... see this year in Finland ! Mikko was doing better times compared to last year, and still he lost.

cali

23rd December 2008, 06:31

I think you've seen both cars 'live', isn't it ? Seeing in tv doesn't give you the same perception. I think the main difference is the engine. Better speed and acceleration, no doubts. It appears to have a lot more HPs compared to the other cars.

On slow gravel/snow you can easily see that the Focus has a great lateral grip, and the difference was there in 2007 when Marcus could fight back and win here and there, and even Hirvonen could beat Loeb too (sometimes).
But this year the C4 has improved a lot. We can safely say that in slow gravel they are equal, while in fast rallies the C4 takes the upper hand by now ... see this year in Finland ! Mikko was doing better times compared to last year, and still he lost.

You talk about lot of things but still no proof or facts. Seeing with your eyes is so subjective. I have seen those cars also live and honestly can't say much about if Citroen is a lot faster - i think those cars are both fast, but one guy has been beating everybody. U think that this year Citroen took the upper hand and your proof is that Mikko drove faster than last year!!! But what if Bosse would have been still around? Would Ford be a better car then? I think Mikko just is a bit slower than Bosse, Loeb and even JML. Ford's problem this year was JML's lack of experience and hotheadedness, Mikko's lack of pace compared to Loeb.

Keywords are: testing and cooperation with engineers, settings to each drivers are different, car has to suit and feel comfortable with the hands of a driver. I think in this case Bosse and Sebastien are in the league of their own :)
These are my subjective thoughts..

janneppi

23rd December 2008, 06:52

You talk about lot of things but still no proof or facts. Seeing with your eyes is so subjective. I have seen those cars also live and honestly can't say much about if Citroen is a lot faster - i think those cars are both fast .
This year in Finland me and couple of forumers were on stage 20 or 21(?) where a Subaru engineer was taking notes of the cars coming out of a tight corner and accelerating in a straight. He had a radar gun and wrote the results on a laptop, a guy behind him then relayed the results to us. :)
Citroens had I think a 5-3km/h advantage to Fords coming to about 100km/h.

cali

23rd December 2008, 08:27

This year in Finland me and couple of forumers were on stage 20 or 21(?) where a Subaru engineer was taking notes of the cars coming out of a tight corner and accelerating in a straight. He had a radar gun and wrote the results on a laptop, a guy behind him then relayed the results to us. :)
Citroens had I think a 5-3km/h advantage to Fords coming to about 100km/h.
Now we have some sort of proof :p
Thanks janneppi!

24th December 2008, 08:40

Is anyone better than Loeb?
http://www.rallybuzz.com/greatest-rally-driver-poll/

AndyRAC

24th December 2008, 09:08

Slightly off thread, but in the Autosport Top 50/100 Drivers of the year - he was only 5th - behind all F1 Drivers. Sorry, but that is garbage, it's heavily biased in favour of the F1 boys - their argument was the lack of competition. However, look at the mistakes he makes - very few, and when he does it comes as a shock. I would have had him as No1, and by a long way.

A.F.F.

24th December 2008, 10:50

So who were those F1 drivers??

AndyRAC

24th December 2008, 11:14

Kubica, Hamilton, Massa, Alonso - I think!!

A.F.F.

24th December 2008, 11:42

Kubica, Hamilton, Massa, Alonso - I think!!

Right....... Especially Hamilton and Massa. :dozey:

Helstar

24th December 2008, 15:43

Not even my idol, Vettel ?!

Btw, I would love to create a thread called "Loeb errors" or something, we could list his few crashes with link to videos ... I only remember, like, 2-3 max each year ... sometimes even co-driver error, not his own xD

llgc8080

17th January 2009, 23:10

Vatanen, Kankkunnen, Makinen, all greats too...

llgc8080

17th January 2009, 23:11

Rally started a long long ago, don't be unfair...

JFL

17th January 2009, 23:16

Yes... Loeb has the records..Why? Is he the greatest driver? Maybe! One thing is for sure: he is surrounded by the best car and team ever! If you look at the 2003 season, I must say I am very impressed by Petter! Even though the car was more competetive then, it was still not above Citroen and the others..! Maximum attack, many ups and downs..That was the greatest for me, and also Colins first and only title..based on maximum attack,and not the best car...

Psycho!

18th January 2009, 07:34

For me Sebastien is gifted with much talent and much luck.The combination of those two makes him perfect.I can't forget some of his wins...Everybody had problems,he didn't have the pace to win and in the end he was the winner(Sweden,Cyprus 2004,Argentina,Japan 2006...)Apart from that I think that he evolved in a tarmac-gravel expert,because,when he joined the championship,he had it on tarmac and due to the number of gravel events,he had the chance to imrove very quickly....On the other side Mikko and Jari-Matti can't do that with only 2-3 tarmac events per year....

MJW

18th January 2009, 16:27

I will always have a nagging doubt about Loeb unless I see him in a team other than Citroen, or even how he would compare against Marcus or Petter if they were ever had a chance to drive a proper Citroen.
It will be interesting to see how close Atkinson & Ogier are to Loeb by the end of 2009.

N.O.T

18th January 2009, 16:52

I think that all of Loebs success is due to the illegal citroen and his luck....

Xsara-WRC

18th January 2009, 17:46

I think that all of Loebs success is due to the illegal citroen and his luck....

How crazy can you be to talk like that .....!!! :rotflmao:

Fischer

18th January 2009, 19:51

Loeb has indeed luck, but that's because he creates his own luck.

jparker

18th January 2009, 20:20

FabiaFan

18th January 2009, 21:20

...for me is Röhrl the greatest... if you count pre-WRCars era...but maybe it's Mäkinen, maybe it's Loeb...

N.O.T

19th January 2009, 18:10

for me the greatest ever is Loix and warmbold...give them the illegal citroen and they will be champions.

Helstar

19th January 2009, 21:43

COLIN no matter which car ... and this thread can stop here :P

llgc8080

25th January 2009, 13:11

...for me is Röhrl the greatest...

Really good choice! :)

Almeidafoto

1st February 2009, 03:00

Seb is the driver with the best record in WRC. But, is he the best Rally driver ever?
The World Rally Champioship for Drivers was created in 1979. In 1978 Markku Alen won the FIA cup - a famtastic driver, Walter Rohrl has been the first to win more than one World Rally Champiobship, Stig Blomqvist showed everbody that you could slide in a 4wd, Kenneth Eriksson hes done miracles with a VW Golf (introducing, along with Stig, the left foot breaking technique).
I don´t think Loeb is the best ever - probably he might be - because it's impossible to evaluate drivers of different times. What about Paddy Hopkirk, Jean-Pierre Nicolas, Sandro Munari or Henri Toivonen - my favourite - among others?
Was Michael Schumacher or Ayrton Senna better than Juan Manuel Fangio or Tazio Nuvolari?
Considering the multiple abilities of a driver, than the best driver in the world would be Pedro Matos Chaves: he has been champion in singleseat cars, Gt's, Touring Cars, Rallies. He is a friend of mine, but I would elect Gilles Villeneuve (Yes he did rallying, and won all he finished)