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View Full Version : Torro Rosso heads the worst in F1



truefan72
12th November 2008, 02:18
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/11112008/23/str-confess-failed-pursuit-piquet-montoya.html

I simply don't understand what Tost and Berger are doing.

How the hell could they value Piquet J. above Bourdais and why would they try to sign him?

I am pretty asure they were the only team remotely interested in him and renault only kept him so that Alonso can dust him off real proper. The guy is uesless and Torro Rosso want to give him a ride?

Then the Montoya thing. Talk about an over reach of immense( nop pun intended) proportions. first of all JPM would have to lose around 30-40 pounds in short order. He would also have to make huge sacrifices in terms of hid family life as well. All this to drive for an ownership that have shown no loyalty, little patience and quite erratic behaviour over the last two years.

Just when I was starting to respect the team for their relative calm, they go ahead and announce these absurd moves.

Let Bourdais go, he is obviously not wanted there.
He will be snapped up by Mercedes as a 3rd driver, or get a seat at Force India, or probably be in cotnention to replace NPJr mid season. Bourdais has more options than STR at this moment.

STR leadership are a mess.

Areez2006
12th November 2008, 05:49
just remember...it's Red Bull first, and a Formula 1 team second. It's sad but very true, especially when STR only considers Takuma Sato because of the possibility of Red Bull appealing in Japan. Piquet and Montoya could probably bring more to the table (financially speaking) than Bourdais at the moment.

F1boat
12th November 2008, 07:16
First, STR know what they are doing as they have won a race. Second, let's not write off Nelson afterone season. Do you remember Massa's first season? I think that we must trust the guys who managed to win a race with the former Minardi team.

Donney
12th November 2008, 08:01
A french driver surely sounds tempting for Renault.

goodf1fun
12th November 2008, 08:04
First, STR know what they are doing as they have won a race. Second, let's not write off Nelson afterone season. Do you remember Massa's first season? I think that we must trust the guys who managed to win a race with the former Minardi team.


Because they have won a race that means they know what they are doing?
If Nelson Pique wasn't his father, then last season he probably been thrown out of the team after the 3rd race. Money talk this days, and Nelson name sells a lot as we can see. He will never be a race winning material. Thats for sure. Money cannot drive the car.

wmcot
12th November 2008, 08:16
STR seem to be playing the Japanese team driver game - 1 - 2 years and you're out!

ShiftingGears
12th November 2008, 09:44
First, STR know what they are doing as they have won a race.

The team does - doesn't mean the management does.

12th November 2008, 09:55
A french driver surely sounds tempting for Renault.

Not if he is going to be the second driver.

Bourdais has shown that he isn't going to be a World Champion. He's a decent driver, but nothing special. The PR benefits of having an average Frenchman regularly beaten in a French team are minimal. In effect, it would be negative equity.

The French don't like to see a non-Frenchman win the Tour, they just wouldn't accept a Frenchman losing in a Renault.

Now, if there was a young Frenchman called Louis Amil'ton, that would be a different matter.

But, as it stands, there isn't, and Bourdais won't deliver what Renault would have to get to make the gamble worth the risk.

ioan
12th November 2008, 12:00
Not if he is going to be the second driver.

Bourdais has shown that he isn't going to be a World Champion. He's a decent driver, but nothing special. The PR benefits of having an average Frenchman regularly beaten in a French team are minimal. In effect, it would be negative equity.

The French don't like to see a non-Frenchman win the Tour, they just wouldn't accept a Frenchman losing in a Renault.

Now, if there was a young Frenchman called Louis Amil'ton, that would be a different matter.

But, as it stands, there isn't, and Bourdais won't deliver what Renault would have to get to make the gamble worth the risk.

French love everything French, no matter how good she/he/it is.

Sleeper
12th November 2008, 12:51
Bourdais hasnt got a hope of getting into the Renault, him and Briatore just dont get on at all, or he would have been signed 6 years ago after his F3000 title.

STR should keep, he was all but matching Vettel at the end of the year and te team needs some consistency on the driver front.

BeansBeansBeans
12th November 2008, 13:39
French love everything French, no matter how good she/he/it is.

I'm not sure that's accurate.

Considering his achievements, Alain Prost had a pretty lukewarm relationship with the the public & media in France.

ArrowsFA1
12th November 2008, 13:44
Considering his acheivements, Alain Prost had a pretty lukewarm relationship with the the public & media in France.
Never really understood that one. Perhaps it stemmed from the failure to win the 1983 title. I remember reading an article at the time saying just how many French journos were at Kyalami in anticipation of a Renault/Prost victory. Perhaps their disappointment coloured the French view of Prost for years to come.

BDunnell
12th November 2008, 14:31
Is there any actual evidence of having a less-than-top-line driver from 'x' country bringing about enough marketing benefits in that country to override their indifferent results? After all, exactly this argument was used in relation to Scott Speed and I don't think his presence at STR did much for the Red Bull brand in the USA that wasn't being done already.

keysersoze
12th November 2008, 15:34
The dark recesses of my heart is going to enjoy Toro Rosso's failures next season should they get rid of Bourdais.

12th November 2008, 15:52
Never really understood that one. Perhaps it stemmed from the failure to win the 1983 title. I remember reading an article at the time saying just how many French journos were at Kyalami in anticipation of a Renault/Prost victory. Perhaps their disappointment coloured the French view of Prost for years to come.

It stems from 1982.

The French public never quite warmed to Alain, partly it seems because, perversely, he was so good, but mainly because when Arnoux ignored the team order to let Alain past to win the French GP, the French public took the view that it was Alain who had instigated the request.

For the record, Alain denies that was ever the case.

Alain has told the story how, just after that race, he was mistaken for Rene Arnoux at a petrol station and the attendant said "Serves that Prost right, who does he think he is!" (or words to that effect).

Alain goes on to say that he paid in cash, because he wanted to avoid the attendants embarrassment when he was handed a credit card with the name "Alain Prost" on it.

6wheeler
12th November 2008, 16:00
The JPM thoughts seem correct, hes fat and happy in NASCAR. Is Bruno Senna still in it for STR or just Honda ?
I quite like Seb. Bourdais, maybe just the first year of bad luck is gone now.

Would really like to see a top rated female ina F1 drive again.. Danica Patrick
Katerine Legge ?

raphael_2
12th November 2008, 16:29
French love everything French, no matter how good she/he/it is.

A bit of stereotyping here Ioan :dozey:

Bourdais can't go to Renault, because he and Flavio don't get on. Flavio was Bourdais manager, but then Flavio got greedy, and Seb refused to sign a new contract as he was asking for quite a high %, and found someone else. Since then, his best shot at F1 has been with a French team, but Flavio is in charge . Shame :(

12th November 2008, 16:49
Flavio was Bourdais manager, but then Flavio got greedy(

Flavio didn't get greedy. He was born that way.

Along side, I think it's only fair to say, every other team principal.

Knock-on
12th November 2008, 18:11
Flavio didn't get greedy. He was born that way.

Along side, I think it's only fair to say, every other team principal.

Really?

Perhaps you're mistaken again and confusing team principles with driver managers. I've never heard anyone accuse LdM, Ron, Frank et al accused of being greedy. Many other things but not greedy.

Even then, the drivers must think they get value for money otherwise they would do it themself.

However, perhaps you know different?

Pat Wiatrowski
12th November 2008, 18:21
A bit of stereotyping here Ioan :dozey:

Bourdais can't go to Renault, because he and Flavio don't get on. Flavio was Bourdais manager, but then Flavio got greedy, and Seb refused to sign a new contract as he was asking for quite a high %, and found someone else. Since then, his best shot at F1 has been with a French team, but Flavio is in charge . Shame :(

I do not think that is quite correct. Flavio tested SB while he was in F3000 and offered him a contract at Renault, BUT with Flavio as his manager and SB disagreed (for what ever reason). If SB had signed, he would have been at Renault long ago. IMO.

Nikki Katz
12th November 2008, 19:24
When I last heard of Piquet's possible move to STR, it was Renault that approached Toro Rosso. But Toro Rosso asked for a lot of money, and Renault weren't prepared to pay.

I would like to see Bourdais stay in F1, more than seeing Sato return, but it would've been great to have Montoya back. Shame. I think that if Honda drop Barrichello then he'll have to come up with significant funding to steal Bourdais' seat. I'm still expecting them to field Sato and Buemi next year - Sato's the richest and Buemi's already sponsored by Red Bull.

yodasarmpit
12th November 2008, 20:07
I actually think a JPM, Piquet partnership would have been pretty sweet.
I honestly believe Piquet has a lot to offer, he started off the season poorly but improved towards the later end, and JPM can drive if he keeps his head.

V12
13th November 2008, 00:34
I still think a fully-motivated Montoya could bring a lot to an F1 team, and by that i mean any of them.

As it stands I feel he is happier out of it, and that's a shame.

52Paddy
13th November 2008, 10:17
I think Bourdais and Piquet still have a lot to offer. Both are still inexperienced in F1 and it may take some time to get the results out of them, but I believe long-term, they will both be contenders for race wins at least.

I'm not pleased to read this about STR. Though, am not surprised in one way, given Berger's history of driver line-ups. It would be stupid of them to get rid of Bourdais if they are already struggling to hire other drivers. Piquet and Montoya turned down the offer and Vettel is leaving for Red Bull Racing. If they hire a new rookie for next season in place of Bourdais, any hope for the management is gone in my eyes. They need to give it time, they seem too impatient to be so quickly at the front end of the grid. But throwing drivers out the window before they are at a proper level of maturity in F1 isn't helping their cause. Then again, they may keep Bourdais and surprise me :mark:

13th November 2008, 10:50
Really?

Perhaps you're mistaken again and confusing team principles with driver managers. I've never heard anyone accuse LdM, Ron, Frank et al accused of being greedy. Many other things but not greedy.

I'm not mistaken, but then I'm not the one inhabiting cloud-cuckoo land.

No team principal I've ever worked for, met or known professionally would qualify as being anything other than selfish, egocentric and a megalomaniac.

It's the main qualification for the job.

Now, some are better at hiding it than others, some better at spinning a certain media image, and some just don't give a , but all are cut from the same cloth.

Now, prove that statement otherwise.

13th November 2008, 11:44
Really?

Perhaps you're mistaken again and confusing team principles with driver managers. I've never heard anyone accuse LdM, Ron, Frank et al accused of being greedy. Many other things but not greedy.

Yes, really.

All the team principals I've worked for, met or known on a professional basis were greedy, selfish, egotistical & meglomaniacs.

All those unlikeable character traits are necessary qualifications for the job of successful and long-lasting F1 Team Principal.

Some are better at hiding it than others, some are better at media spin (any guess who that might be?....give you a clue, he used to have "integrity" until the spin didn't wash anymore) and some just don't give a toss.

F1 is called the "Piranha Club" for a reason. Your man Dennis coined that phrase, so he's accused himself with that description...no need to hear anybody else say it.

ioan
13th November 2008, 11:53
A bit of stereotyping here Ioan :dozey:

Living in France for 8 years I had enough time to realize that it was true for 99% of the French people.

Knock-on
13th November 2008, 13:19
Yes, really.

All the team principals I've worked for, met or known on a professional basis were greedy, selfish, egotistical & meglomaniacs.

All those unlikeable character traits are necessary qualifications for the job of successful and long-lasting F1 Team Principal.

Some are better at hiding it than others, some are better at media spin (any guess who that might be?....give you a clue, he used to have "integrity" until the spin didn't wash anymore) and some just don't give a toss.

F1 is called the "Piranha Club" for a reason. Your man Dennis coined that phrase, so he's accused himself with that description...no need to hear anybody else say it.

Well, I've never had the benefit of sweeping out the Benetton garage and thereby being in a position to make in depth psychological assessments of most of the team principles.

However, I am fortunate to know a few of the people that have worked on the McLaren F1 development team and they don't agree with you.

They have said that he is very single minded, driven, committed and a workaholic which sound like traits of a successful businessman in any industry.

As for being greedy, selfish, egotistical and a megalomaniac, well, I guess we shall just have to take your word for it after your extensive professional exposure to the man :laugh:

13th November 2008, 14:40
However, I am fortunate to know a few of the people that have worked on the McLaren F1 development team and they don't agree with you.

Whereas I, of course, have never come into contact with anybody who worked for Mclaren. That is, if we are not counting dozens of aerodynamicists, engineers, etc.

I've never met the tea lady, though, I admit.

You claim he is "very single minded, driven, committed and a workaholic"....which I don't disagree with, all successful team principals are.

However, I am also a firm believer that there are other mandatory character traits applicable to all team principals, i.e - the ones I stated earlier.

One thing is for sure, I don't expect any of them to get Saint status any time soon. Not Flavio, not Ron, not any of them.

BeansBeansBeans
13th November 2008, 20:27
Is this like Top Trumps? One of my mates used to do Kelvin Burt's ironing.

Sleeper
13th November 2008, 21:00
Is there any actual evidence of having a less-than-top-line driver from 'x' country bringing about enough marketing benefits in that country to override their indifferent results? After all, exactly this argument was used in relation to Scott Speed and I don't think his presence at STR did much for the Red Bull brand in the USA that wasn't being done already.
Narain Karthekaien could legitemately claim to have more fans than Schumy, thats got to count for something in a country the size of India.

BDunnell
13th November 2008, 23:19
Narain Karthekaien could legitemately claim to have more fans than Schumy, thats got to count for something in a country the size of India.

But can this be measured by sponsors?

Roamy
14th November 2008, 06:51
well all I can tell you is that Bergers best days in F1 was when he was in last place because he thought he was in FIRST

14th November 2008, 10:58
Is this like Top Trumps? One of my mates used to do Kelvin Burt's ironing.

Damn, you win.

If only I'd had Coulthard's hotel card, I could have easily beaten that ironing statistic.

*Although, I will appeal on the grounds that this is the F1 forum, and as such Kelvin Burt's cards can't be played here on account of him never having got to F1. Now, if you'd had the Perry McCarthy Top Trumps set, you'd be laughing, but as you didn't play that set you have to accept that the likelihood is you'll be charged with bringing the sport of Top trumps into disrepute.

See you in Paris, headquarters of FIAS, the Federation Internationale De Atout Supérieur.

Sleeper
14th November 2008, 11:00
But can this be measured by sponsors?
Probably not, but I havnt a clue how much Tata pay him.

BDunnell
14th November 2008, 11:05
Probably not, but I havnt a clue how much Tata pay him.

I ask because I am reliably informed that sponsors are increasingly looking for genuinely measureable benefits these days.

14th November 2008, 11:11
Is there any actual evidence of having a less-than-top-line driver from 'x' country bringing about enough marketing benefits in that country to override their indifferent results? After all, exactly this argument was used in relation to Scott Speed and I don't think his presence at STR did much for the Red Bull brand in the USA that wasn't being done already.


Narain Karthekaien could legitemately claim to have more fans than Schumy, thats got to count for something in a country the size of India.


But can this be measured by sponsors?

That's a good point.

I think it makes it relatively easy (not easy, just relative to a driver from a country with an already established F1 heritage) for a driver from a non-heritage country to initially get the sponsorship to get them into F1, but it doesn't seem to keep them there if results don't happen.

Karthekeyan, Speed & Montiero being recent examples, Yoong being another from a few years back.

Sato, however, seems to buck that trend...as, to some degree, have most Japanese drivers. Katayama had a good few seasons where it must have been sponsors who were getting him the drive, be it personal or team sponsors, since his results were hardly effervescent.

Maybe it's something peculiar to Japan that means that a lack of success does not affect sponsorship and public interest?

After all, that would explain why Honda & Toyota can keep on not winning with little indication from the board rooms that they are running out of time.

BDunnell
14th November 2008, 11:58
That's a good point.

I think it makes it relatively easy (not easy, just relative to a driver from a country with an already established F1 heritage) for a driver from a non-heritage country to initially get the sponsorship to get them into F1, but it doesn't seem to keep them there if results don't happen.

Karthekeyan, Speed & Montiero being recent examples, Yoong being another from a few years back.

Sato, however, seems to buck that trend...as, to some degree, have most Japanese drivers. Katayama had a good few seasons where it must have been sponsors who were getting him the drive, be it personal or team sponsors, since his results were hardly effervescent.

Maybe it's something peculiar to Japan that means that a lack of success does not affect sponsorship and public interest?

After all, that would explain why Honda & Toyota can keep on not winning with little indication from the board rooms that they are running out of time.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there about the Japanese drivers. I've said before that Japanese attitudes to motorsport have often seemed rather odd by Western standards. Good examples are Nissan's misguided entry into the WRC with the Sunny GTiR and the reasons behind the establishment of Super Aguri.

BeansBeansBeans
14th November 2008, 12:01
Damn, you win.

If only I'd had Coulthard's hotel card, I could have easily beaten that ironing statistic.

*Although, I will appeal on the grounds that this is the F1 forum, and as such Kelvin Burt's cards can't be played here on account of him never having got to F1. Now, if you'd had the Perry McCarthy Top Trumps set, you'd be laughing, but as you didn't play that set you have to accept that the likelihood is you'll be charged with bringing the sport of Top trumps into disrepute.

See you in Paris, headquarters of FIAS, the Federation Internationale De Atout Supérieur.


Kelvin Burt was a test driver for Jordan, and thus reached F1 in some form, despite never having entered a Grand Prix. On that basis, your appeal is inadmissable, although I'll wait until you get to Paris before I tell you :p

PolePosition_1
14th November 2008, 12:52
I must be honest, management in terms of drivers has been pretty poor. I was suprised with the Scott Speed situation.

However it paid off, so can't really have a go at them too much. And in terms of performance, whilst you can't deny much is due to outside sources such as Red Bull chassis and Ferrari engine, they've made that situation happen for themselves.

But I agree, it would be sad to see Bourdais gone, who if it were not for his misfortune, through no fault of his own, we see a potential of 20+ points this season.

14th November 2008, 13:20
Kelvin Burt was a test driver for Jordan, and thus reached F1 in some form, despite never having entered a Grand Prix. On that basis, your appeal is inadmissable, although I'll wait until you get to Paris before I tell you :p

Bah, those are just minor details....as an Italian team, I have full confidence that the World Top Trump Council will come to my assistance.

They've never let us down before.

For example, there was the time when it was suggested that some of my Top trump cards statistics had been altered with a biro in what, to some cynics in the British press, appeared to be my hand-writing.

Of course, due to my long standing historical importance to the series, that allegation was dismissed.

I reckon a $100 million fine plus loss of all your Trumpstructor points will be the outcome of my appeal....even if I do think you'll have got off lightly with that.

truefan72
14th November 2008, 22:03
I must be honest, management in terms of drivers has been pretty poor. I was suprised with the Scott Speed situation.

However it paid off, so can't really have a go at them too much. And in terms of performance, whilst you can't deny much is due to outside sources such as Red Bull chassis and Ferrari engine, they've made that situation happen for themselves.

But I agree, it would be sad to see Bourdais gone, who if it were not for his misfortune, through no fault of his own, we see a potential of 20+ points this season.

a good assessment