Surfers Gone.......

[jimispeed]

So much for "embracing what was CART/Champcar". I shouldn't have believed TG when he said it in that press conference with KK.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/11/11/22021_gold-coast-top-story.html

Nothing has changed..........

[millencolin]

Well... i guess thats it.

Goodbye American Open Wheel Racing. I know you and I we have been friends for well over a decade. I've supported you through all your ups and downs, i've been there for you. But now you decide not to visit me, I don't think we can be together anymore. I dont believe in long distance relationships. Plus lately, your arrogance and general selfishness has put a strain on our relationship. You seem to be thinking all about yourself lately. I'm sorry, but its over between us.

I'm moving on. I've found a better series. She is faster, much better looking (cause you ahve gained so much weight lately, in the strangest places, makes you look quite the ugly one) and is more cultured and refiened internationally. She is called the A1gp, and I believe that our future together promisies to be long and meaningful. I know you have been flirting around with One and a half mile ovals in middle America, I know you get tempted by them. But I dont see those relationships lasting when your... *ahem* crowd, is small.

I'm sorry IRL, but i'm moving on. I don't need you anymore. Youve become fat, seflish and slow. Goodbye, and good luck for the future... cause your gonna need it

[dataman1]

I too will be moving on. I gave the IRL and its management a chance but I must say they failed. Rather than race where there is sun, beach, best media coverage and 200,000+ fans they would rather go in circles near corn fields. Now AOWR is in the hands of a bunch of pencil pushing know nothings making bad decisions.

[dataman1]

I forgot something. If anyone know where Waldo is hanging out these days let me know. I would like to meet and talk about the good old days.

[Easy Drifter]

Surfers did to TG what TG did to F1. When demands got too high it was goodby. Now if only Speed would start showing A1GP at least on the same day as the races. I do not know if they are going to show them at all this year. Last year most that they did show were mid afternoon on weekdays weeks after the races were run.
Maybe with Super(in his own mind) Marco and Stompin Danica driving we here in NA will get some coverage.
Anybody know? My computer does not seem to like Speed.

[MDS]

No huge surprise. It sucks, but I don't think its entirely fair to put all of the blame on Tony George. I am far from a big supporter of his, but from what I heard the Gold Coast officials were unwilling to move the date at all. In their mind either the IRL would race on that one weekend or they weren't coming.

As I understand it the IRL offered them three weekends, the ones around Japan and selection of weekends in March. I understand they also offered to run it again as a non-points event. Yeah, it sucks, yeah TG should have found a way to make it work, but from what I've heard the Aussies were unwilling to negotiate on anything, so really, its not entirely his fault.

I for one am not likely to visit Australia again. Way to cut yourself out of the world's most important economy Aussies.

[NickFalzone]

As much as I'd like to blame Tony George, the real issue was the team owners, who came back from Surfer's in the red unless they scored in the top 5. They were not offering to pay the IRL any more to come, and they weren't going to change the date. Just wasn't going to happen. TG would get some respect if he used this opportunity to get a less expensive track in the US to replace this date.

[ShiftingGears]

The IRL just became considerably more woeful.

[bennybigb]

I just thank God that TG didn't cancel Iowa or Kansas to make room for Surfers.

We all knew this merger would bring some tough choices, at least we will still be racing at our corps events.

Thank you TG for keeping your vision.

[jimispeed]

Almost twenty years of Miss Indy, and one of the greatest street courses on the earth. What an atmosphere!!

Thanks TG.

You've comfirmed just exactly what I was afraid of.


At least I have memories.

[AussieV8]

As I understand it the IRL offered them three weekends, the ones around Japan and selection of weekends in March. I understand they also offered to run it again as a non-points event. Yeah, it sucks, yeah TG should have found a way to make it work, but from what I've heard the Aussies were unwilling to negotiate on anything, so really, its not entirely his fault.

The dates around the Japan race were too close to the grand finals for the AFL and NRL, not to mention being right in the middle of the Phillip Island 500 and Bathurst 1000 V8 Supercar races, which would have made it impossible for the V8's to show up at the Gold Coast.

The date in March clashed with the F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne (which has far more support than IndyCar in Australia).

The alternative dates offered were ones that didn't fit in with major events in Australia.

Back when the Gold Coast Indy was in March, the F1 was held in Adelaide at the end of the year. When the F1 moved to Melbourne and became the first race of the season, CART moved their race to the October date within a couple of years. IIRC CART and F1 only clashed for 96 and 97.

The best way for the IRL to handle this was to schedule a final round in the US one or two weeks after the Gold Coast Indy (and not at Homestead either, that's another ridiculous idea from the lemmings running the IRL IMHO). The short schedule of IndyCar is really a joke. What other major racing series has it's finale way back in the middle of September?

As for A1GP taking over, well the QLD government has gone from a series that's weak but at least has momentum and credibility to one that has serious doubts about its future. Hardly a brilliant move. I expect that the Gold Coast event won't last much longer, which is a pity for racing fans everywhere.

[MDS]

The dates around the Japan race were too close to the grand finals for the AFL and NRL, not to mention being right in the middle of the Phillip Island 500 and Bathurst 1000 V8 Supercar races, which would have made it impossible for the V8's to show up at the Gold Coast.

The date in March clashed with the F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne (which has far more support than IndyCar in Australia).

The alternative dates offered were ones that didn't fit in with major events in Australia.

Back when the Gold Coast Indy was in March, the F1 was held in Adelaide at the end of the year. When the F1 moved to Melbourne and became the first race of the season, CART moved their race to the October date within a couple of years. IIRC CART and F1 only clashed for 96 and 97.

So it doesn't actually sound like there was any room to negotiate, hence what was the point in actually talking if your country wasn't willing to offer more money or consider an alternative date?


The best way for the IRL to handle this was to schedule a final round in the US one or two weeks after the Gold Coast Indy (and not at Homestead either, that's another ridiculous idea from the lemmings running the IRL IMHO). The short schedule of IndyCar is really a joke. What other major racing series has it's finale way back in the middle of September?

Seriously you wanted them to find two new events just to accommodate Surfers? I like Surfers, its by far one of my favorite races I've ever attended, but really, demanding the IRL add two dates to accommodate one tracks non-negotiable desires? I can't fault them for leaving if the Aussies were unwilling to compromise in any way. I would like to see the season extended a bit too, but it wasn't going to happen in 2009.

I bet had the Aussies found another $2 mill for the purse the event would have happened again in 2009, and then perhaps your scheduling idea could have worked for 2010, but not before then.

[downtowndeco]

And you know what? I bet attendance won't even take a hit. That's no reflection on the IRL (or CCWS or CART for that matter), but rather, that this event has very little to do with the racing and everything to do with ***** & beer.

I for one, am glad that TG is putting the racing in front of the party.

Cheers.

[Miatanut]

Well... i guess thats it.

Goodbye American Open Wheel Racing. I know you and I we have been friends for well over a decade. I've supported you through all your ups and downs, i've been there for you. But now you decide not to visit me, I don't think we can be together anymore. I dont believe in long distance relationships. Plus lately, your arrogance and general selfishness has put a strain on our relationship. You seem to be thinking all about yourself lately. I'm sorry, but its over between us.

I'm moving on. I've found a better series. She is faster, much better looking (cause you ahve gained so much weight lately, in the strangest places, makes you look quite the ugly one) and is more cultured and refiened internationally. She is called the A1gp, and I believe that our future together promisies to be long and meaningful. I know you have been flirting around with One and a half mile ovals in middle America, I know you get tempted by them. But I dont see those relationships lasting when your... *ahem* crowd, is small.

I'm sorry IRL, but i'm moving on. I don't need you anymore. Youve become fat, seflish and slow. Goodbye, and good luck for the future... cause your gonna need it

Nicely done! :up:

[Miatanut]

And you know what? I bet attendance won't even take a hit. That's no reflection on the IRL (or CCWS or CART for that matter), but rather, that this event has very little to do with the racing and everything to do with titties & beer.

I for one, am glad that TG is putting the racing in front of the party.

Cheers.

Considering attendance was down this year, and they will be back to REAL race cars next year, I would expect attendance to go up.

[garyshell]

Let the hand wringing begin. This was an untenable situation for both sides. The ICS realized that they needed to end the series in the US and needed to do it before the NFL season kicked in. The Surfer's folks also realized they had similar issues with the proposed dates the ICS folks could offer (i.e. conflicts with other sporting events). Both sides are acting like the other's concerns were of no consequence and THEY were the one who needed to change.

When the Austrailian F1 event was in the fall and the Champcar event was in the spring, everyone was happy. When the two were switched, it was just a matter of time before this came to a head.

It's too bad too, because this was a great event. But I am afraid it was inevitable. I have yet to hear a solution from EITHER side that was really workable and took into acount the realities that BOTH sides faced.

Gary

[jimispeed]

And you know what? I bet attendance won't even take a hit. That's no reflection on the IRL (or CCWS or CART for that matter), but rather, that this event has very little to do with the racing and everything to do with ***** & beer.

I for one, am glad that TG is putting the racing in front of the party.

Cheers.


Surfers Paradise was all about racing.

Through the many years I've watched it, there have been some extremely exciting moments.

The "Miss Indy" pageant was perfect for the event, given that the beach was only about 100 feet away.

So did it have little to do with the racing? Eighteen years running. Look it up on Youtube, I'm sure you'll find lots of great footage on what you've been missing all of these years.

Guess that won't matter any more though. TG's ego won't let him see that his series is the worst high profile open wheel series that ever existed......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfLM5W4XcM

[gofastandwynn]

I just thank God that TG didn't cancel Iowa or Kansas to make room for Surfers.

We all knew this merger would bring some tough choices, at least we will still be racing at our corps events.

Thank you TG for keeping your vision.


So how would getting rid of Iowa or Kansas help keep Surfers? Maybe you could expand you logic to see how getting rid of a mid summer race would save on that didn't want to leave October?

[DanicaFan]

Now the IRL can focus on getting Michigan back and bringing Phoenix, Atlanta, and Las Vegas on the schedule.

[gofastandwynn]

Well... i guess thats it.

Goodbye American Open Wheel Racing. I know you and I we have been friends for well over a decade. I've supported you through all your ups and downs, i've been there for you. But now you decide not to visit me, I don't think we can be together anymore. I dont believe in long distance relationships. Plus lately, your arrogance and general selfishness has put a strain on our relationship. You seem to be thinking all about yourself lately. I'm sorry, but its over between us.

I'm moving on. I've found a better series. She is faster, much better looking (cause you ahve gained so much weight lately, in the strangest places, makes you look quite the ugly one) and is more cultured and refiened internationally. She is called the A1gp, and I believe that our future together promisies to be long and meaningful. I know you have been flirting around with One and a half mile ovals in middle America, I know you get tempted by them. But I dont see those relationships lasting when your... *ahem* crowd, is small.

I'm sorry IRL, but i'm moving on. I don't need you anymore. Youve become fat, seflish and slow. Goodbye, and good luck for the future... cause your gonna need it


Well, the sponsors and the IRL really don't care. It's the truth. The sponsors didn't want their money to be spent down there because they didn't do any business down there. You could have had 500,000 people there and it wouldn't have mattered to the corporate bean counters. Target doesn't sell there, the US National Guard doesn't recruit there, etc. etc. It would make about as much sense as Bartercard or Super Cheap sponsoring a La Liga team. And as the teams had stated repeatedly it was a $$ loser for them, with Penske saying they were not coming back unless the race was in the championship. Assuming A!GP is still around next year, best of luck to them

If Craig Gore was really millions to sponsor a car for just one race than that was one of the worst ROI's in the history of racing. It makes absolutely no sense for every single team to lose money so one car could appease a sponsor.

Poor business thinking like that killed champcar...

[ShiftingGears]

Well, the sponsors and the IRL really don't care. It's the truth. The sponsors didn't want their money to be spent down there because they didn't do any business down there. You could have had 500,000 people there and it wouldn't have mattered to the corporate bean counters. Target doesn't sell there, the US National Guard doesn't recruit there, etc. etc. It would make about as much sense as Bartercard or Super Cheap sponsoring a La Liga team. And as the teams had stated repeatedly it was a $$ loser for them, with Penske saying they were not coming back unless the race was in the championship. Assuming A!GP is still around next year, best of luck to them

If Craig Gore was really millions to sponsor a car for just one race than that was one of the worst ROI's in the history of racing. It makes absolutely no sense for every single team to lose money so one car could appease a sponsor.

Poor business thinking like that killed champcar...

Target sells in Australia.

[Robert Ryan]

I for one am not likely to visit Australia again. Way to cut yourself out of the world's most important economy Aussies.
I think the benefit was the other way around. We provided the 2nd best race that Indycar participated at and it was a hugely welcomed by everyone over its 18yr existance.

So it doesn't actually sound like there was any room to negotiate, hence what was the point in actually talking if your country wasn't willing to offer more money or consider an alternative date?
I think they were trying to leverage an extra race out of TG . Doomed to failure I would think.Also it allowed TG to save face..

I bet had the Aussies found another $2 mill for the purse the event would have happened again in 2009, and then perhaps your scheduling idea could have worked for 2010, but not before then.
In a word no. No more taxpayers money to be spent.

[gofastandwynn]

Target sells in Australia.

Same brand, but different companies. TCGR is sponsored by the Target Corporation in the USA, while in AUS it is Target Australia Pty Ltd owned by Wesfarmers. Target Corporation gets no benefit from running in AUS.

It the same manner Team Penske is sponsored by a different company (Philip Morris USA) than Scuderia Ferrari & Ducati Corse (Philip Morris International) but all have the same brand of Marlboro.

[F1boat]

Surfers is to blame. The final of a US-based series can't be outside the States. Surfers is a good track, but as other posters said, good that Tony defended his vision.

[ShiftingGears]

Same brand, but different companies. TCGR is sponsored by the Target Corporation in the USA, while in AUS it is Target Australia Pty Ltd owned by Wesfarmers. Target Corporation gets no benefit from running in AUS.

It the same manner Team Penske is sponsored by a different company (Philip Morris USA) than Scuderia Ferrari & Ducati Corse (Philip Morris International) but all have the same brand of Marlboro.

I didn't know that. Cheers.

[Mach24]

It is fantastic the event organisers standing by the event rather than the steamroller that is the IRL.

The Gold Coast race will be bigger and better.

Finally an organiser not being 'bent over' by TG.

[Livewireshock]

Now lets look at Tony Georges track record, he created IRL because he wanted all American cars with all American drivers racing only on American ovals, to be like open wheeled NASCAR. FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

He believed that CART was wrong in allowing foreign drivers, cars and engines race and that international venues were not good for the sponsors. Now he has more drivers from more countries than ever before, all in foreign engined cars, driving on road course and street circuits and I am not sure but I think Target, National Guard et al do not gain much from Motegi, Japan but they are going there anyway.

A March race date meant that track construction would have to begin in the middle of peak tourism season for the Gold Coast. While crowd numbers would still be good, corporate support would dwindle with F1GP and Clipsal 500 at that same time of year. This is where major dollars are spent, not by the average spectator and would sorely hurt the organisers.

A September date runs into the football finals here in Australia, the endurance races for V8Supercars are on & more importantly for 2009, the World Rally Championship Rally Australia is on just south of the Gold Coast. This all eats into the corporate pie and affect the bottom line of the race organisers.

Champcar over the past few years have been virtually irrelevant to the outside global motorsport media. IRL has improved it figures marginally but is still poor. That is why they have to dodge around NFL telecasts instead of hosting races later into the year.

A1GP is greater in coverage than Champcar and is growing rapidly. It is doing this in the Gold Coast's tourism market of Asia. Malaysia currently leads the championship and there are cheap flights directly from KL to Coolongatta. It has a great following in NZ because their teams success.

Most of all A1GP has been talking for YEARS with the Gold Coast organisers and were willing to compromise. Tony gave two dates and said take it or leave it, both dates set to lose major dollars for the race organisers.

The race has a party atmosphere and is like a blue collar Monaco F1GP. People go there to party, to see and to be seen. ALL racing is secondary to many there, even the V8s. This is sure to continue regardless of the cars taking part.

[Ranger]

Surfers is a good track, but as other posters said, good that Tony defended his vision.

What vision? :confused:

[Livewireshock]

What vision? :confused:

I think he can see his own tonsils he has his head shoved so far..........

Let's face it the USA generally are an inward facing lot, culturally speaking.

Their biggest sports are home grown. NFL, NBL, NASCAR, NHL and so they do not interact with other countries in the same way that other countries do. They play World Series Baseball but forget to invite the rest of the world to play. They only tolerate the Canadians because they just happen to be there.

Unlike Europe where nations are competing continually with each other at so many levels of sport that it feels natural for other sports or events to be included. The same happens here in Australia and also in NZ, we feel so remote at times we strive to compete everywhere that we can in everything.

In the USA, if it does not involve the Stars and Stripes, then they do not take interest. It goes all the way to their schooling and single minded patriotism.

Even at the Olympics, a rare place where the US decides to join the rest of the world, NBC demanded that swimming finals be changed to fit in with US tv schedules. I was at the Sydney Olympic Games involved with Good Morning America being filmed LIVE in sunny Australia despite the telecast being screened at 2am Australian time.

I am not trying to condemn the USA but that is the way alot of them are culturally brought up. Tony George is just wearing those same blinkers that makes him unaware that there is 5.75 billion people outside the USA who may actually be interested in US based series. Yet all he cares about is his local market.

CART was nearing a point where it was challenging F1 for global dominance before Tony tore it all down. People everywhere once sat up and took notice. Bringing it back to it's roots as he would believe, he has condemned themselves to be confined and resticted & the IRL to remain as a motorsport backwater.

IRL will always struggle to step out of the shadow of the other domestic series in the USA and the international races were the only avenue to make waves on the global stage. That is all disappearing, as IRL continues to gaze into own navel.

[DanicaFan]

What vision? :confused:
The vision is of the IRL being an oval based and North American series which is what it was founded upon. I didnt enjoy the surfer's race so I wont miss it. ;)

[MAX_THRUST]

Why is that I wonder, Oh yeah because marshalls didn't like Danica and Danica couldn't learn the circuit.

Seriously though, it is a shame, it was an event that helped CART in so many ways and even helped CCWS stay alive, now TG and the Surfers guys have killed it, never mind A1GP it is next year.

[MAX_THRUST]

Or is it GP 2 Asia series....?

[Livewireshock]

The vision is of the IRL being an oval based and North American series which is what it was founded upon. I didnt enjoy the surfer's race so I wont miss it. ;)

My point made in my previous post demonstrated clearly here.

Tony tried this already with an all oval calendar. It failed and was also down right dangerous in some the venues he ran events at.

It is amazing to think that cars were originally designed to turn left AND right.

It will be interesting when Danica gets to drive the A1GP car then as is planned???

[jwhite9185]

wonder what happens to will power now then? he deserves to still be in the series and it will be a shame to see him go just because of not having a sponsor like so many other talented cc drivers.

[DanicaFan]

I belive Will Power will stay in the IRL. I agree, he deserves to be there.

Im not upset about Surfer's like about everyone else is. It doesnt matter to me. Yes, Max, Danica didnt have a good weekend there but I know she is better than that and that was just a down week, so maybe that is part of it, I dont know. If they were going next year, I guarantee you she would be in the top 10 then.

But like I said, lets move on. Focus on getting Michigan back. And let's bring Phoenix, Atlanta, and Las Vegas on the schedule.

[Livewireshock]

Or is it GP 2 Asia series....?

No definitely not. Bernie is asking for way too much money for this series that hardly anyone recognises and was set up in a rush because he was fearful of A1GP's rise in popularity.

No, another Tony, Tony Teixiera (A1GP boss) has been in constant contact with the Queensland organisers for years. Ever since Champcar was looking increasingly shakey, he has been there ready to step in. Long before Dan Panoz ever raised his hand for consideration. Alot of thought and effort has been made by the A1GP fraternity to fit in with the organisers wishes.

He obviously sees the importance of this race and the chance for it to be a jewel in the crown for his series. The financial needs & requirements have been discussed for along time. The IRL knew perfectly well that A1GP were prepared to offer what they were not able to match even before the final negotiations at the 2008 Indy event.

[V12]

Sad....I've always enjoyed watching Surfers (especially when it was live in the middle of the night) and it had it's own mini-tradition going. In an ideal world it would be near the start of the season with the Australian GP back at the end (at Adelaide), but hey what can you do.

A1GP = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Livewireshock]

Changing subject now slightly, has anyone else realised that all the protagonists in this argument were called Tony.

Tony George - IRL

Tony Teixeira - A1GP

Tony Cochrane - V8Supercars

If I change my name by deed poll to Tony, can I run my own race series????

[millencolin]

A1GP is greater in coverage than Champcar and is growing rapidly. It is doing this in the Gold Coast's tourism market of Asia. Malaysia currently leads the championship and there are cheap flights directly from KL to Coolongatta. It has a great following in NZ because their teams success.



Actually, you have made an excellent point. I had to do an assignment about Gold Coast tourism for uni a few years back and I had to find some statistics about gold coast international tourism. If only I still had those stats (lost in the great laptop death of 2006), but from memory i can remember the largest sector was New Zealand. Other target markets were China, Malaysia, Middle East and India.

A1gp actually reaches these regions, so as far as tourism promoting goes, it will do a better job. Especially since that most of those country have had success in A1, the only one that hadn't is Lebanon(middle east), but this year with Morad on board they are doing so much better.

I think the gold coast tourism board would be stoked that its now an a1 event

[downtowndeco]

Yeah, it was all about the racing. It just didn't matter WHO was racing. And take away the beer & this event would be toast.


Surfers Paradise was all about racing.

Through the many years I've watched it, there have been some extremely exciting moments.

The "Miss Indy" pageant was perfect for the event, given that the beach was only about 100 feet away.

So did it have little to do with the racing? Eighteen years running. Look it up on Youtube, I'm sure you'll find lots of great footage on what you've been missing all of these years.

Guess that won't matter any more though. TG's ego won't let him see that his series is the worst high profile open wheel series that ever existed......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfLM5W4XcM

[millencolin]

Nicely done! :up:

Thank you, I find I'm at my most creative after 4 beers, and that was a 4 beer job

[slim]

Me too I'm gone. Boring races, boring drivers, SLOW cars, Boring tracks...All good things come to an end...Sigh I loved the good old CART Days...see ya

[downtowndeco]

He tried to do what he could. But CART/CCWS LOST. They don't get to make the rules. And TG wasn't going to keep a race on the schedule that wouldn't fit in the schedule, added little for US based sponsors and cost the teams a bundle to boot.

Don't take it so personal. It was just business. It didn't work out. CCWS/CART may still be viable if they would have put solid business logic in front of passion.



So much for "embracing what was CART/Champcar". I shouldn't have believed TG when he said it in that press conference with KK.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/11/11/22021_gold-coast-top-story.html

Nothing has changed..........

[downtowndeco]

It was down due to current world wide economic climate. If you think TG has control over that you're giving him far too much credit.


Considering attendance was down this year, and they will be back to REAL race cars next year, I would expect attendance to go up.

[Livewireshock]

It was down due to current world wide economic climate. If you think TG has control over that you're giving him far too much credit.

That is all truth had little to do with crowd numbers. It has affected Australia alot less than other parts of the world. Alot of people were scared off because of a promised crackdown on the nakedness and drunkiness of previous events. All trying to make it more family friendly.

Australians all remember the very heavy handed approach that the police took at Bathurst last year in order to achieve a similiar goal. I know of a few locals who did not want to be apart of that, one- because they were offended by things seen last year or two - because they felt they would not be allowed to have the same 'fun' as previous years.

All in all, the drop in figures this year was minor considering current trends.

[Gluaistean]

So much for "embracing what was CART/Champcar". I shouldn't have believed TG when he said it in that press conference with KK.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/11/11/22021_gold-coast-top-story.html

Nothing has changed..........

Jimi, never truer words have been spoken. This is a sham of a series now. Watch Team Australia go followed by KVT. When that happens, it's adios from me too.

I won't subject myself to the torture of watching this once fine open wheel series that existed in the US from '79 to '07 become a mere sideshow.

If I had a method of doing so I would watch A1GP because my friends in Europe say it is a great series. I now watch GP2 and, if given a chance watch the Superleague.( Reminds me of Champcar look).

TG, according to the marketing person I know that used to work for Brown and Williamson is a great guy (personality) but not astute in business. Came up with inane ideas not one person understood. The mighty dollar and his love of the sport is what drives him. Knowing what to do and how to do it are not his forte.

I know this is going to anger some but his I500 is an American race and the amount of interest world wide is minimal to say the least. Even from hardcore race fans. George has played that hand and lost many times. If he were not the person in charge this series might be better.

Too bad for Indy Car racing.

[Rex Monaco]

The sponsors didn't want their money to be spent down there because they didn't do any business down there.

If the IRL sponsors don't do business in Australia, then that's a sad commentary on the IRL and their sponsors not on Surfer's or Australia.

So does that mean the IRL can only race where they have 7-11's and Targets? I guess this line of thought should help them expand the series into a few states and maybe gain the interest of Kohl's and Kroger too.

Then the pace car could be a shopping cart!

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/10/mopar_cart.jpg

[downtowndeco]

CCWS & CART both died chasing sponsors and fans around the world. TG will not make that same mistake.


If the IRL sponsors don't do business in Australia, then that's a sad commentary on the IRL and their sponsors not on Surfer's or Australia.

So does that mean the IRL can only race where they have 7-11's and Targets? I guess this line of thought should help them expand the series into a few states and maybe gain the interest of Kohl's and Kroger too.

Then the pace car could be a shopping cart!

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/10/mopar_cart.jpg

[Rex Monaco]

Target sells in Australia.

http://www.target.com.au/
Avon Catalog (https://www.avoncatalog.net)
Target catalogue (https://www.catalogueau.com/target/)

And so does 7-Eleven.

http://www.7eleven.com.au/

And Delphi also has an Australian operation.

http://delphi.com/careers/international/australia/

So does anyone know for a fact that the sponsors didn't support this race? Or did TG do this, despite the sponsors?

[Rex Monaco]

CCWS & CART both died chasing sponsors and fans around the world. TG will not make that same mistake.

You are right. TG has shown us that he makes his own mistakes.

And CART died not because of chasing sponsors, they died because they made other mistakes, like not keeping Indy on the schedule as a points race.

[Rex Monaco]

...single minded patriotism.

So the rest of the world practices double minded patriotism? How does that work? You guys secretly root for your nation to loose to another nation?

We have those kind of people here too! We call them liberals! :D

[bennybigb]

I agree DanicaFan!

It's time the IRL uses the momentum from canceling Surfers to get some of our great tracks back!

There is soooo much Indy history in Nashville, we simply must get that race back at all costs!

[nigelred5]

Iv changing a traditional date is no problem, why has Long Beach fought for their date so hard. You know, the weather is kind iffy on Memorial day, I think July 4th would be soo much better for the 500..

I've maintained all along, the only reason Surfers was even on the schedule this year was to get KK and his team to go along with the merger. Once that was signed, done deal the race was history. The IRL had and has never had any need for a race half way around the world at Surfers. The IRL wouldn't even think about Motegi if Honda wasn't footing the bill for the series. Anyone that thought Surfers would change their date to accomodate the IRL has simply beem fooling themselves and it's been perfectly clear, the series is smart enough to know better than go head to head with College and NFL football, Something even NASCAR is having a hard time figuring out.

[garyshell]

Finally an organiser not being 'bent over' by TG.


This was a two way street. Surfer's didn't want a spring date because of conflicts with other sporting events. ICS didn't want an October event because of the same reason, plus the desire to end the season in the states.

Both sides wanted the other to "bend over". How do YOU suggest this could have been resolved given BOTH agendas?

Gary

[garyshell]

...and I am not sure but I think Target, National Guard et al do not gain much from Motegi, Japan but they are going there anyway.

Hello, ever hear of a company called Honda?


A September date runs into the football finals here in Australia, the endurance races for V8Supercars are on & more importantly for 2009, the World Rally Championship Rally Australia is on just south of the Gold Coast. This all eats into the corporate pie and affect the bottom line of the race organisers.

Champcar over the past few years have been virtually irrelevant to the outside global motorsport media. IRL has improved it figures marginally but is still poor. That is why they have to dodge around NFL telecasts instead of hosting races later into the year.

Oh, so it's ok for Surfers to have a problem with a date because of conflicts with with football, but it's not ok for ICS to have the same issue? Just a bit hypocritical don't ya think?


A1GP is greater in coverage than Champcar and is growing rapidly. It is doing this in the Gold Coast's tourism market of Asia. Malaysia currently leads the championship and there are cheap flights directly from KL to Coolongatta. It has a great following in NZ because their teams success.

And what coverage does A1GP have that might appeal to the likes of say a Target, National Guard etc? And let's look at their business model. The have been bleeding some rich blokes pockets dry for the past few years. Who is propping it up now and for how long?


Most of all A1GP has been talking for YEARS with the Gold Coast organisers and were willing to compromise. Tony gave two dates and said take it or leave it, both dates set to lose major dollars for the race organisers.

Sounds a lot like the counter offer that Surfer's made. "We want a points race in October. Take it or leave it."

Gary

[garyshell]

I am not trying to condemn the USA but that is the way alot of them are culturally brought up. Tony George is just wearing those same blinkers that makes him unaware that there is 5.75 billion people outside the USA who may actually be interested in US based series. Yet all he cares about is his local market.

Nice job at condeming the USA, when you say you are not trying to do that. He is aware they exist. He is also aware that they contribute very little to the bottom line of the series. Like it or not this is a business. And it is a business controlled by Madison Ave. Without the sponsors there is nothing, zero, zilch, nada. These sponsors are only interested in marketing in the US. That fact is what is driving this.


CART was nearing a point where it was challenging F1 for global dominance before Tony tore it all down. People everywhere once sat up and took notice. Bringing it back to it's roots as he would believe, he has condemned themselves to be confined and resticted & the IRL to remain as a motorsport backwater.

Oh, please get your facts straight. I was a big CART supporter and decried the day that the idiot grandson came up with his grand vision back in 1996. But the notion that CART was ever in a position to challenge F1 is ridiculous. It sounds like something out of the CART IPO. It was hogwash then, and its hogwash now.


IRL will always struggle to step out of the shadow of the other domestic series in the USA and the international races were the only avenue to make waves on the global stage. That is all disappearing, as IRL continues to gaze into own navel.

Why on earth would they want to try to make waves on a global scale? Do you have any clue as to what that would do to the expense side of the business? Oh, that's right, you keep forgetting this is a BUSINESS. And if they did where would the offsetting revenue come from? F1 and A1GP are both struggling to find the revenues. So why the hell would it make sense to go up against that? Oh, I know so the Surfers folks can have a race in October when they demand it. Makes perfect sense to me.

Gary

[indycool]

For those piling on the IRL for this, it takes two to tango. We've seen what happens when comparative amateurs cut deals in Ansan and Zhuhai and the like rather than sitting back like Bernie and saying "$30 million will get you started."

If it can't make financial sense for BOTH Surfers and the IRL, it isn't going to happen. If it can't make organizational sense for BOTH Surfers and the IRL, it isn't going to happen. The idea that one or the other is "at fault" because they couldn't make it work is ludicrous. Neither, or both, could make it work, regardless of forum histrionics and personal preferences.

[Livewireshock]

So the rest of the world practices double minded patriotism? How does that work? You guys secretly root for your nation to loose to another nation?

We have those kind of people here too! We call them liberals! :D

No, I mean that the USA induces a belief that only their own domestic competition is any good. That the grass is always greener on MY side of the fence mentality while refusing to even take a peak next door.

Ask the average American joe in the street what UEFA Cup, AFL, Webb Ellis Trophy, Bledisoe Cup, The Ashes, Serie A, La Liga, EPL, GP2, J-Leauge, WTCC, WRC, Bundes Liga and countless more international sporting fixtures are and they would have a clue. The US media concentrates on NFL, NBL, WSB, NHL and NASCAR almost exclusively.

Look at the big events in the USA

Superbowl - Millions in the USA watch it but billions outside the USA could not care less, wardrobe malfunctions or not.

World Series Baseball that does only involves two countries????

Stanely Cup does not even get mentioned here unless there was a on ice fight.

NASCAR has no relevance outside the USA despite the huge crowds trackside.

Indy 500 - Biggest single race day in terms of crowd size but hardly causes a ripple out beyond US shores.

There are people outside of the USA who are interested and care about US sport but there is a selfishness that only the US is best that denies it from being shared with the rest of the world.

[garyshell]

The vision is of the IRL being an oval based and North American series which is what it was founded upon. I didnt enjoy the surfer's race so I wont miss it. ;)


That vision is now history. The new positioning is one of a diverse series as it should have been from day one. That was ALWAYS the strength of US open wheel. All types of venues. It made it unique.

Some of us state side DID enjoy the race and we will miss it. Bet you would have liked it a lot, had someone had a better showing that day.

Gary

[garyshell]

...now TG and the Surfers guys have killed it...

Finally a voice of reason. This was a two way street. Both sides had needs that conflicted and they could not resolve. Too bad, but facts is facts.

Gary

[garyshell]

No definitely not. Bernie is asking for way too much money for this series that hardly anyone recognises and was set up in a rush because he was fearful of A1GP's rise in popularity.

And Surfer's Paradise along with A1GP better keep watching over their shoulders. Bernie is a force to be reckoned with.

Gary

[garyshell]

Actually, you have made an excellent point. I had to do an assignment about Gold Coast tourism for uni a few years back and I had to find some statistics about gold coast international tourism. If only I still had those stats (lost in the great laptop death of 2006), but from memory i can remember the largest sector was New Zealand. Other target markets were China, Malaysia, Middle East and India.

A1gp actually reaches these regions, so as far as tourism promoting goes, it will do a better job. Especially since that most of those country have had success in A1, the only one that hadn't is Lebanon(middle east), but this year with Morad on board they are doing so much better.

I think the gold coast tourism board would be stoked that its now an a1 event


So remind me again why Surfer's Paradise was supposed to be so important to the sponsors of the current ICS teams?

Gary

[garyshell]

If the IRL sponsors don't do business in Australia, then that's a sad commentary on the IRL and their sponsors not on Surfer's or Australia.

I am sorry, but I don't follow the "logic" of that. How is it a sad commentary on anyone? I concede the point that is is not a commentary on Surfer's, but don't follow your leap to it being a problem with ICS.

Gary

[Livewireshock]

Hello, ever hear of a company called Honda?

Yes, a very non-American company. Remember that IRL was only meant for Oldsmobile etc...... How long did that last?




Oh, so it's ok for Surfers to have a problem with a date because of conflicts with with football, but it's not ok for ICS to have the same issue? Just a bit hypocritical don't ya think?

Actually we do schedule motor racing on the same broadcaster on the same day as our football finals but in our smaller corporate market, it does not make sense to split their spending. You can not have them in two corporate boxes on the same day. US corporate market is over tens times larger to handle such conficts.



And what coverage does A1GP have that might appeal to the likes of say a Target, National Guard etc? And let's look at their business model. The have been bleeding some rich blokes pockets dry for the past few years. Who is propping it up now and for how long?


Target and the US National Guard are not the issue. It is what coverage A1GP can give to the Gold Coast across Asia. Enticing more visitors to visit than all the US centric coverage could ever give.



Sounds a lot like the counter offer that Surfer's made. "We want a points race in October. Take it or leave it."


The Gold Coast position was clear, that is why it has been this way for so many years. TG would never accept running the Indy500 on any other weekend.

[garyshell]

http://www.target.com.au/

And so does 7-Eleven.

http://www.7eleven.com.au/

And Delphi also has an Australian operation.

http://delphi.com/careers/international/australia/

So does anyone know for a fact that the sponsors didn't support this race? Or did TG do this, despite the sponsors?


Are those the same companies as the US one's. It was already pointed out that Target in USA and Target in Australia are two different companies. I suspect the same is true of the others.

Do we know for fact that the sponsors (most of whom do not market in Australia) did support the race? It seems pretty logical that they would not, and counter intuitive that they would. No?

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Really, no one is at fault here. It just didn't work out. For Surfers it doesn't really matter if they have CCWS, The IRL or A1GP, the crowds will be about the same. I know CC fans used to always feel like the crowds were there because of CC but the reality is it was just a party that had a race to go along with it. If I were Surfers I would have switched to A1GP too if having the IRL (or CCWS) meant moving the date.

Again, agendas are showing in this thread. I have to hand it to Gary though for being a voice of reason....

[garyshell]

No, I mean that the USA induces a belief that only their own domestic competition is any good. That the grass is always greener on MY side of the fence mentality while refusing to even take a peak next door.

Ask the average American joe in the street what UEFA Cup, AFL, Webb Ellis Trophy, Bledisoe Cup, The Ashes, Serie A, La Liga, EPL, GP2, J-Leauge, WTCC, WRC, Bundes Liga and countless more international sporting fixtures are and they would have a clue. The US media concentrates on NFL, NBL, WSB, NHL and NASCAR almost exclusively.

Look at the big events in the USA

Superbowl - Millions in the USA watch it but billions outside the USA could not care less, wardrobe malfunctions or not.

World Series Baseball that does only involves two countries????

Stanely Cup does not even get mentioned here unless there was a on ice fight.

NASCAR has no relevance outside the USA despite the huge crowds trackside.

Indy 500 - Biggest single race day in terms of crowd size but hardly causes a ripple out beyond US shores.

There are people outside of the USA who are interested and care about US sport but there is a selfishness that only the US is best that denies it from being shared with the rest of the world.


Take a careful look at what you just said. On one hand you condemn us for not knowing about other sporting events around the globe. And in the very next breath you say how the rest of the world has little notice or interest in our major events. Excuse me, but sorry, you can't have it both ways. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Gary

[Livewireshock]

So remind me again why Surfer's Paradise was supposed to be so important to the sponsors of the current ICS teams?

Gary

It is called global business. Most of the sponsors have subsidaries operating in Australia and the Asia Pacific area. From Target, 7-Eleven, Energizer, McDonalds and many more. Every team had corporate box connections and were involved in entertaining sponsors over the entire race weekend.

Being the second biggest event by attendance on the calendar, the party atmosphere and much more, alot of corporate wheeling and dealing was performed in and around the track.

[garyshell]

Yes, a very non-American company. Remember that IRL was only meant for Oldsmobile etc...... How long did that last?


Non sequitor alert!!! What does that have to do with your original argument. Nice try at a right turn, but it has no relevance.




Actually we do schedule motor racing on the same broadcaster on the same day as our football finals but in our smaller corporate market, it does not make sense to split their spending. You can not have them in two corporate boxes on the same day. US corporate market is over tens times larger to handle such conficts.

If only that were true. The pool of sponsor dollars is no where near what you are fantasizing. Besides this is not about corporate boxes, this is about eyeballs on tv screens. That is what drives this business. Sponsors could not give a damn about corporate boxes.


Target and the US National Guard are not the issue. It is what coverage A1GP can give to the Gold Coast across Asia. Enticing more visitors to visit than all the US centric coverage could ever give.

Then explain to me why it was so important for Surfer's to have an US based race then. And why it is such a shame that TG didn't agree to the demanded date?


The Gold Coast position was clear, that is why it has been this way for so many years. TG would never accept running the Indy500 on any other weekend.

At one time the race was in the spring, no? October is out of the question for ICS. They, understandably, want to finish the season in the states. And they don't want to go head to head with the NFL. What part of that don't you understand?

Gary

[garyshell]

Really, no one is at fault here. It just didn't work out. For Surfers it doesn't really matter if they have CCWS, The IRL or A1GP, the crowds will be about the same. I know CC fans used to always feel like the crowds were there because of CC but the reality is it was just a party that had a race to go along with it. If I were Surfers I would have switched to A1GP too if having the IRL (or CCWS) meant moving the date.

Again, agendas are showing in this thread. I have to hand it to Gary though for being a voice of reason....

Come on now, we gotta stop agreeing like this... people will talk!

<big ol' grin>

Gary

[Livewireshock]

Take a careful look at what you just said. On one hand you condemn us for not knowing about other sporting events around the globe. And in the very next breath you say how the rest of the world has little notice or interest in our major events. Excuse me, but sorry, you can't have it both ways. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Gary

You have misunderstood. I meant that the US shuts the world out from alot of their domestic sports scenes. Making it extremely hard for the world to be involved.

Why is it that the USA is one of only three countries that still use the imperial system?

It is part of the attitude that what you tell yourselves is best and forget the rest of the world exists.

[garyshell]

It is called global business. Most of the sponsors have subsidaries operating in Australia and the Asia Pacific area. From Target, 7-Eleven, Energizer, McDonalds and many more. Every team had corporate box connections and were involved in entertaining sponsors over the entire race weekend.

Being the second biggest event by attendance on the calendar, the party atmosphere and much more, alot of corporate wheeling and dealing was performed in and around the track.


Again you're lack of understanding of the $$$ flow is showing. First most of these "subsidiaries" are separate companies. And as such they have their own budgets. How much did the Austrailian Target, 7-Eleven, Energizer or McDonalds contribute to the sponsorship of the teams over the year? And what benefit did the USA Target, 7-Eleven, Energizer or McDonalds get from paying for a car to race in front of an Australian crowd? The ONLY benefit they got was from the stateside TV coverage.

The corporate wheeling and dealing did NOT benefit the stateside entities. And they are, in most cases, distinctly different corporate entities from the ones in Australia.

Gary

[garyshell]

No, I mean that the USA induces a belief that only their own domestic competition is any good. That the grass is always greener on MY side of the fence mentality while refusing to even take a peak next door.

Ask the average American joe in the street what UEFA Cup, AFL, Webb Ellis Trophy, Bledisoe Cup, The Ashes, Serie A, La Liga, EPL, GP2, J-Leauge, WTCC, WRC, Bundes Liga and countless more international sporting fixtures are and they would have a clue. The US media concentrates on NFL, NBL, WSB, NHL and NASCAR almost exclusively.

Look at the big events in the USA

Superbowl - Millions in the USA watch it but billions outside the USA could not care less, wardrobe malfunctions or not.

World Series Baseball that does only involves two countries????

Stanely Cup does not even get mentioned here unless there was a on ice fight.

NASCAR has no relevance outside the USA despite the huge crowds trackside.

Indy 500 - Biggest single race day in terms of crowd size but hardly causes a ripple out beyond US shores.

There are people outside of the USA who are interested and care about US sport but there is a selfishness that only the US is best that denies it from being shared with the rest of the world.


You have misunderstood. I meant that the US shuts the world out from alot of their domestic sports scenes. Making it extremely hard for the world to be involved.

Why is it that the USA is one of only three countries that still use the imperial system?

It is part of the attitude that what you tell yourselves is best and forget the rest of the world exists.


Nice try, but you didn't say anything at all about that. All you said was that the folks in the US don't care about events outside their border, and that folks outside the US don't care about our events. Read you message again and tell me where it says a thing about exclusivity. Oh wait, you did mention the World Series but it was clear that was NOT the crux of your message, now was it?

Why do we use the imperial system? $$$ Do you have a clue how much it would cost to convert? And for what possible benefit?

Maybe Geroge Bush forgets the rest of the world exists, but we are not all George Bush.

Gary

[indycool]

livewire, move to town and buy a paper. You say the IRL was built for Oldsmobile? I thought it was built for Offenhauser. Times change.

Penske switched from CART to IRL specifically because of sponsor input. Marlboro already had international racing exposure with F1. CART, and subsequently CC, had international aspirations. Marlboro USA was footing the bills for U.S. exposure and didn't need it for international exposure. For U.S. sponsors, anything outside the U.S. is a "throwaway race." Some U.S. companies have Canadian entities and when CART started going to Toronto, there was a bit of whining about that among the sponsors.

The Indianapolis 500 is international because it's so d*mn big and always has been. The U.S. National Driving Championship, which dates back to the early years of the last century, has centered it. Through the years, there have been trips to Monza ('50s, exhibition); Rafaela, Argentina; Brand's Hatch and Silverstone and Mosport other than the Honda trip to Motegi, that wasn't a CART or CC deal originally. And the IRL kept Edmonton.

The IRL hasn't come right out and said it, but IMO, by its actions, it's clear to me that it wants to keep its roots in, and build in, the U.S., at least FIRST, so it can grow to the point where it might be feasible to go abroad. And I give it its props for cleaning that up after watching CC chase the Ansans and Zhuhais like Don Quixote.

Gary and DD have given every reason conceivable. You may not like it, but there is another line of thinking to concentrate on home branding, home sponsorship and home support here.

[Rex Monaco]

I am sorry, but I don't follow the "logic" of that.

It's a global economy (as evidenced by the global recession). If the ICS isn't attracting global companies (which are the companies that tend to have larger advertising budgets) then something is wrong.

I could see why a company wouldn't be interested in a race in Laos or Botswana, but we are talking about Australia! There are lots of consumers and lots of industry in Australia.

[indycool]

Rex, since most of the races are in the U.S., most of the companies that are interested in sponsoring things in the U.S. are marketing mostly in the U.S. Duh.

[Nikki Katz]

I think that this is a great shame, although admittedly I didn't get to watch the race this year. Presumably Power and Servia will be out of the IRL now.

[Livewireshock]

Rex, since most of the races are in the U.S., most of the companies that are interested in sponsoring things in the U.S. are marketing mostly in the U.S. Duh.

As opposed to opening up to outside interest, gaining billions of extra fans and earning millions in international sponsorship & rights deals.

It is short sighted and foolish to think that way.

[downtowndeco]

How did that work out for CART in Germany? CCWS in Holland? The Pacfic Rim connection? Again, a large part of what killed CCWS & CART was chasing fans and sponsors dollars around the world.


As opposed to opening up to outside interest, gaining billions of extra fans and earning millions in international sponsorship & rights deals.

It is short sighted and foolish to think that way.

[gofastandwynn]

It is called global business. Most of the sponsors have subsidaries operating in Australia and the Asia Pacific area. From Target, 7-Eleven, Energizer, McDonalds and many more. Every team had corporate box connections and were involved in entertaining sponsors over the entire race weekend.

Being the second biggest event by attendance on the calendar, the party atmosphere and much more, alot of corporate wheeling and dealing was performed in and around the track.

You are getting brands & companies confused. Yes, the brand of 7 Eleven is in AUS, but it isn't the same company that is sponsoring AGR. In the world Dairy Farm International Holdings, Seven & I Holdings Co., 7-Eleven Stores Pty. Ltd, Convenience Shopping Sdn. Bhd, Philippine Seven Corporation, Reitan Servicehandel, Uni-President, Charoen Pokphand Group, all operate 7 Elevens, but only one of them sponsors AGR. Different ballance sheets, different income reports and they don't want their money being spend in a country they don't do business in. Tim Cindric brought this up on Wind Tunnel a few months back when talking about their sponsors (remember companies, not brands) didn't want to spend money on fly away races.

And the same goes for all the companies you lisisted above:
Energizer Australia Pty LTD, McDonald's Australia, Target Australia Pty Ltd, all different companies under a parent or holding company.

[Livewireshock]

At least Andretti Green will be returning to Surfers. I guess that Danica will get a chance to improve on the terrible weekend she had this year at least.

[Easy Drifter]

Hey folks: Surfers is gone. End of story.
A1GP replaces it. New story.
It doesn't matter why it is gone. It is gone.
It doesn't matter who was at fault, if anyone. It is gone.
There is no point in endless wrangling over the whys and wherefores.
IT IS GONE!

[Rex Monaco]

Hello, ever hear of a company called Honda?

Yeah, but Honda Japan is a different company than Honda USA.

[garyshell]

It's a global economy (as evidenced by the global recession). If the ICS isn't attracting global companies (which are the companies that tend to have larger advertising budgets) then something is wrong.

I could see why a company wouldn't be interested in a race in Laos or Botswana, but we are talking about Australia! There are lots of consumers and lots of industry in Australia.


As opposed to opening up to outside interest, gaining billions of extra fans and earning millions in international sponsorship & rights deals.

It is short sighted and foolish to think that way.

Damn, Spanky is it really that easy? <shakes head>

So, Livewireshock, Cart, CCWS and the ICS raced in various venues outside North America and how much interest from global companies did that garner? Where were those millions of dollars?

So, Rex, how many consumers are there in Australia? Hint: roughly the same as Texas. Wow, that is going to make such a huge difference to the bottom line to the folks writing the checks to sponsor the McDonald's team, or the 7-Eleven team or the Target team, isn't it. It maybe a global economy, but sponsorship is more local or regional. The notable exception being F1. And I don't think ANYONE is stupid enough to want to go up against that juggernaut, given the collusion between the international motorsports body and the F1 hoodlums holding everyone involved hostage.

Gary

[garyshell]

Yeah, but Honda Japan is a different company than Honda USA.


Yeah, sure, just keep telling yourself that.

Gary

[indycool]

How many billions of fans and millions of dollars did CC garner in Ansan and Zhuhai and all the other losing runs at those billions and millions that are so important to you and where is CC, somewhat because of that, today?

[Robert Ryan]

So, Rex, how many consumers are there in Australia? Hint: roughly the same as Texas. Wow, that is going to make such a huge difference to the bottom line to the folks writing the checks to sponsor the McDonald's team, or the 7-Eleven team or the Target team, isn't it. It maybe a global economy, but sponsorship is more local or regional
True and that is why even the CART race did not make much sense. Eventually virtually very few were watching it in the US, why would US sponsors waste money for that?

The Indianapolis 500 is international because it's so d*mn big and always has been. The U.S. National Driving Championship, which dates back to the early years of the last century, has centered it. Through the years
Past tense here. It is not the same race, the importance has diminished dramatically. Yes very few outside the US are interested and they were not that much more interested when it was at it's peak, as they did not follow oval racing.

Nice try, but you didn't say anything at all about that. All you said was that the folks in the US don't care about events outside their border, and that folks outside the US don't care about our events. Read you message again and tell me where it says a thing about exclusivity. Oh wait, you did mention the World Series but it was clear that was NOT the crux of your message, now was it
I have been to most parts of the world and most people are pretty parochial about sport in general. In Europe sports are shared between countries and there are regional differences as well. The US is is very parochial as it worships only home grown sports. Soccer, Rugby, Tennis are probably the only sports with a substantial presence in a lot of countries and Soccer and Rugby are the major sports in quite a few.

[Rex Monaco]

Are those the same companies as the US one's. It was already pointed out that Target in USA and Target in Australia are two different companies. I suspect the same is true of the others.

Do we know for fact that the sponsors (most of whom do not market in Australia) did support the race? It seems pretty logical that they would not, and counter intuitive that they would. No?

Gary

Is it logical for a company doing global business not to market in Australia?

No, that is not logical.

Is it logical for the ICS to focus on domestic companies that have no international presence?

No, that is not logical either.

Big money comes from big business. Big business is big because they expanded beyond their borders and across the oceans.

If the ICS intends to compete with NASCAR for the same sponors, that's a plan that can only fail.

[NickFalzone]

IndyCar under Tony George will always feature oval racing. It's getting back to CART style with road and streets also being a significant chunk of the schedule. But it's Indy car racing, it goes back to the earliest days of auto racing and that style is still primarily US only in popularity. Trying to compete as a global series would be foolish when they're still trying to return to a modicum of success domestically. Australia added very little to the series from a business standpoint. I think that's a great track and a great event, but I'm not such a fickle fan that one event on or off the schedule is going to change my interest in the series. If they add a portland or a cleveland in 2010 as was suggested in the press release, then I'd certainly enjoy having one of those on the schedule. But I like the core of the series, high speed oval racing and the indy 500, and one more or less street course is not going to make it or break it for me.

[gofastandwynn]

If the ICS intends to compete with NASCAR for the same sponors, that's a plan that can only fail.

Oh, but competing against F1 for sponsors is a is a A+ plan. Tell me, if that plan was so great, why wasn't CC overflowing with sponsored cars.

McDonald's Australia doesn't want to sponsor a car in the USA and McDonald's USA doesn't want to sponsor a car in Australia.

[downtowndeco]

Best post of the day.


Oh, but competing against F1 for sponsors is a is a A+ plan. Tell me, if that plan was so great, why wasn't CC overflowing with sponsored cars.

McDonald's Australia doesn't want to sponsor a car in the USA and McDonald's USA doesn't want to sponsor a car in Australia.

[indycool]

Simplest and clearest and most accurate post of the day.

[Rex Monaco]

McDonald's Australia doesn't want to sponsor a car in the USA and McDonald's USA doesn't want to sponsor a car in Australia.

Someone evidently smarter than those working for the IRL could sell them on the benefits of McDonalds Australia sponsoring the car while it's in Australia, likewise with McDonalds Japan.

[indycool]

Rex, the IRL has nothing to do with McDonald's. That would be N/H/L. And if you think that's an easy chore, revert back to Penske and Marlboro.

[Rex Monaco]

Oh, but competing against F1 for sponsors is a is a A+ plan. Tell me, if that plan was so great, why wasn't CC overflowing with sponsored cars.

Before there was TG, there was CART. CART was gaining credibility in the global market with sponsors and manufacturers before TG got pissy and effed it all up.

CC never had a chance and for you to compare the IRL to CC shows how low you think of the IRL.

[garyshell]

Someone evidently smarter than those working for the IRL could sell them on the benefits of McDonalds Australia sponsoring the car while it's in Australia, likewise with McDonalds Japan.


Ok, so now instead of pitching your teams funding proposal to one entity, you propose that they need to do so to each of the offices in the US, Japan, Austarlia and Canada? Yep, sounds like a really smart plan to me. <again shakes head>

Are you stepping up to take on the increased work load for one or more of the teams?

Gary

[garyshell]

Before there was TG, there was CART. CART was gaining credibility in the global market with sponsors and manufacturers before TG got pissy and effed it all up.

I don't remember the makeup of sponsors being any more "global" than it is now. I think CART had gobal aspirations around they same time as they went public. But I think that was mostly IPO PR talk. I don't recall anything REALLY coming to fruition.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Yep, sounds like a really smart plan to me.

And your plan is to drive on down to Arkansas and convince Walmart to climb on board because Texas is such a huge market?

[Livewireshock]

During the split, where was a foreign company going to go? IRL or Champcar. It forced many potential sponsors to sit on their hands and wait, including US investors.

Over the years Mexican, Brazilian & Canadian companies have become involved inline with races occurring with in their respective countries. Team Australia was the major example from this country. But the split and infighting stopped alot more investment.

With the newly merged series, a new sense of trust and a greater sense of hope prevailed. With two Australians battling for race wins and a New Zealander taking out the title, there were several Australian/NZ companies ready to place their faith in Indy once more beyond just Team Australia. The Australian economy is quite healthy despite the gloom around the world and many seek to take advantage by seeking new ventures in the USA.

But without a Gold Coast race, IRL has now lost a team with two good drivers and alot of potential support. It was pre-mature for the mewly merged series to withdraw. Surfers was a successful, long running and mature market for Indycar. Looking for sponsors solely in a weakened recession hit USA will be very hard to do. Especially when the outlook for the series is covering very much the same ground that NASCAR already covers in the motorsport market.

Korea and China were cash grabs by a desparate CC series looking for legitimacy anywhere it could find it. Overseas expansion should be measured and gradual. Not to be like F1 overnight. But races in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Japan, Australia and such offers much more. It gets the IRL out of NASCAR's shadow appealing to companies that want exposure in those market in the coming years.

Like V8Supercars very successful expansion into the Middle East, NZ and soon into Singapore. It has taken many year, done slowly and carefully. All in markets carefully researched and measured. It ensures races that are compatible with European & Asian TV outside of the countries physically visited. Not to go racing in any country that is prepared $X amount of dollars.

[downtowndeco]

There you go, you finally came out and said . It was all TG's fault. Hey, I know. Let's rehash the split for the millionth time rather than just move ahead?


Before there was TG, there was CART. CART was gaining credibility in the global market with sponsors and manufacturers before TG got pissy and effed it all up.

CC never had a chance and for you to compare the IRL to CC shows how low you think of the IRL.

[Gluaistean]

So the rest of the world practices double minded patriotism? How does that work? You guys secretly root for your nation to loose to another nation?

We have those kind of people here too! We call them liberals! :D

Is that a joke? I hope it is because last week we had a starter that closed down political commentary because of idiotic comments like that.

Bring politics into this and I will gladly debate it.

However, Starter, if you have a modicum of impartiality, you would now shut this down because of this Rex Monaco comment.

[nigelred5]

During the split, where was a foreign company going to go? IRL or Champcar. It forced many potential sponsors to sit on their hands and wait, including US investors.

Over the years Mexican, Brazilian & Canadian companies have become involved inline with races occurring with in their respective countries. Team Australia was the major example from this country. But the split and infighting stopped alot more investment.

With the newly merged series, a new sense of trust and a greater sense of hope prevailed. With two Australians battling for race wins and a New Zealander taking out the title, there were several Australian/NZ companies ready to place their faith in Indy once more beyond just Team Australia. The Australian economy is quite healthy despite the gloom around the world and many seek to take advantage by seeking new ventures in the USA.

But without a Gold Coast race, IRL has now lost a team with two good drivers and alot of potential support. It was pre-mature for the mewly merged series to withdraw. Surfers was a successful, long running and mature market for Indycar. Looking for sponsors solely in a weakened recession hit USA will be very hard to do. Especially when the outlook for the series is covering very much the same ground that NASCAR already covers in the motorsport market.

Korea and China were cash grabs by a desparate CC series looking for legitimacy anywhere it could find it. Overseas expansion should be measured and gradual. Not to be like F1 overnight. But races in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Japan, Australia and such offers much more. It gets the IRL out of NASCAR's shadow appealing to companies that want exposure in those market in the coming years.

Like V8Supercars very successful expansion into the Middle East, NZ and soon into Singapore. It has taken many year, done slowly and carefully. All in markets carefully researched and measured. It ensures races that are compatible with European & Asian TV outside of the countries physically visited. Not to go racing in any country that is prepared $X amount of dollars.
A agree A1GP is a far better fit from the Aussie perspective. The International participation of teams is far greater in "their neighborhood" if you will. Taking a vacation in Australia from Asia or the middle east and vice versa is normal tourism. Americans visiting Australia and vice versa is much more likely to be a once in a lifetime type vacation excepting businessmen. I think CART and Champcar proved that corporate schmoozing doesn't pay the bills nor does it draw more thean the equivalent of flies to a race. The venues need to sell themselves via the race, and the corporate sponsorships are mostly local race by race interest.

From my limited exposure to the supercars thanks to the wonderful coverage we get, it seems the supercars have worked on developing a very successful and competetive series domestically where they are clearly the top dog in australia. Honestly, there really isn't a lot of autoracing competetion to the supercars based in that part of the world. Then they spread series through television first, and now that there is regional interest, they are carefully exanding to strategic regional areas that happen to be saddled with extreme wealth of late. They aren't taking the seres half way around the world like the Indycars are. Geography is on their side expanding where they are. Fortunately for the supercars, they have much of the worlds wealth and developing economies essentially in their back yard. A1GP has clearly expanded from their center of the world, essentially focusing on what I would call the Indian ocean ring. To a large extent, F1 is clearly heading that way. To be honest, I could never ficure out HOW CART ended up in surfers in the first place, though I'm glad they did.


The IRL can't even claim to be the top dog racing series in the mid west, let alone the US, and their stellar TV contract gives them virtual invisibility internationally and TG and his sidekicks know it. As much as I will miss the race at surfers, it never belonged under the IRL, and I' personally would rather see it go to A1GP than suffer under the IRL. I can't waaaait to see what kind of ***** race they put on at Long Beach. Too bad they don't have the coin to lure the demented dwarf and his billion dollar 3 ring circus back to the beach. I just can't see big crowds showing up next april.

[indycool]

Well, nigel, a bit of history. Long Beach switched from F1 to Indy cars because it couldn't afford F1 any more and the lure was INDY cars, the cars and drivers of the Indianapolis 500. For 12 years, that has not been the case. Now, again, it will be, and if you ask Long Beach GM Jim Michaelian about it, returning to that tie is going to be an important draw in the U.S. Previous to this, attendance was going down at Long Beach and the blending of the series should be the START of going back up, all things considered.

[mileman]

Won't miss it a bit. It's just too far to go for a wet tee shirt contest. I hate street races...but "different strokes"...

I was almost hoping for something like this so that the IRL could focus on getting Elkhart Lake and Cleveland back on the docket. Brats and beer - or the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame - that's more like it!

And for A1GP - bad TV exposure and the concept of a shell game. It must have been invented by the same people that came up with the Davis Cup for tennis - and nobody can figure that out.

[Rex Monaco]

Let's rehash the split for the millionth time rather than just move ahead?


How did that work out for CART in Germany? CCWS in Holland? The Pacfic Rim connection? Again, a large part of what killed CCWS & CART was chasing fans and sponsors dollars around the world.

The day you move ahead instead of comparing the current IRL to CART and Champcar, will indeed be a day of great progress. But I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to do so.

[Rex Monaco]

During the split, where was a foreign company going to go? IRL or Champcar. It forced many potential sponsors to sit on their hands and wait, including US investors.

Over the years Mexican, Brazilian & Canadian companies have become involved inline with races occurring with in their respective countries. Team Australia was the major example from this country. But the split and infighting stopped alot more investment.

With the newly merged series, a new sense of trust and a greater sense of hope prevailed. With two Australians battling for race wins and a New Zealander taking out the title, there were several Australian/NZ companies ready to place their faith in Indy once more beyond just Team Australia. The Australian economy is quite healthy despite the gloom around the world and many seek to take advantage by seeking new ventures in the USA.

But without a Gold Coast race, IRL has now lost a team with two good drivers and alot of potential support. It was pre-mature for the mewly merged series to withdraw. Surfers was a successful, long running and mature market for Indycar. Looking for sponsors solely in a weakened recession hit USA will be very hard to do. Especially when the outlook for the series is covering very much the same ground that NASCAR already covers in the motorsport market.

Korea and China were cash grabs by a desparate CC series looking for legitimacy anywhere it could find it. Overseas expansion should be measured and gradual. Not to be like F1 overnight. But races in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Japan, Australia and such offers much more. It gets the IRL out of NASCAR's shadow appealing to companies that want exposure in those market in the coming years.

Like V8Supercars very successful expansion into the Middle East, NZ and soon into Singapore. It has taken many year, done slowly and carefully. All in markets carefully researched and measured. It ensures races that are compatible with European & Asian TV outside of the countries physically visited. Not to go racing in any country that is prepared $X amount of dollars.

If you had posted this instead of your earlier anti-American rant, I'd have supported you earlier.

[Rex Monaco]

...the lure was INDY cars, the cars and drivers of the Indianapolis 500. For 12 years, that has not been the case.

Indy needs to regain it's stature before it can once again be the lure for bringing people back to Long Beach.

Otherwise, the cars and the drivers of Le Mans as featured in the ALMS, would be just as good (maybe better) of a lure and the ALMS could easily replace the IRL at Long Beach.

[disko]

Dont forget about the exhibition race in T&C.

Yea Mon!

[Miatanut]

Well, nigel, a bit of history. Long Beach switched from F1 to Indy cars because it couldn't afford F1 any more and the lure was INDY cars, the cars and drivers of the Indianapolis 500. For 12 years, that has not been the case. Now, again, it will be, and if you ask Long Beach GM Jim Michaelian about it, returning to that tie is going to be an important draw in the U.S. Previous to this, attendance was going down at Long Beach and the blending of the series should be the START of going back up, all things considered.
As a west coaster, former Californian and former LB spectator myself, I'm certain the connection between LBGP and Indy was fairly minimal. It grew out of the California hot road and road racing scene that Gurney (the inspiration for CART) came out of. The first races were F5000 (road racers through and through, no connection to Indy), followed by F1 (road racers through and through, no connection to Indy), and then CART (created by the road racers, tired of going around in circles all the time). Attendance was still going gangbusters when when Indy was no longer a part of the CART schedule.

Next year, attendance will be down from this year, and I expect it to be off the schedule in a maximum of five years, after Tony does his usual "My way or the highway" routine to the Amigos and they say "Adios".

Hopefully it will remain as an ALMS/*****/Atlantic weekend.

[F1boat]

Indy needs to regain it's stature before it can once again be the lure for bringing people back to Long Beach.

Otherwise, the cars and the drivers of Le Mans as featured in the ALMS, would be just as good (maybe better) of a lure and the ALMS could easily replace the IRL at Long Beach.

why choose between IRL and ALMS when you can have both!

[Ranger]

The vision is of the IRL being an oval based and North American series which is what it was founded upon.

He had all that to start with! :\

He had to reverse this 'vision' to be successful, which tells me the exclusively USA engines/drivers/cars formula hasn't ever been a winner since 1996. The reasons why are another issue.

Hence, his 'vision' is one that sees backwards. Regression, in other words.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I was hoping to see Indycar stay at Sufers Paradise, paired with Motegi, which is an oval I like. But now I think the IRL should get rid of Motegi too. They should commit themselves to a clear stragety: either focus to North America or diversify the schedule with more international races. CART/Champ Car always failed to commit itself to one of these strategies, its schedules were always fortuitous. They lacked directon, does the IRL?

[Mach24]

This was a two way street. Surfer's didn't want a spring date because of conflicts with other sporting events. ICS didn't want an October event because of the same reason, plus the desire to end the season in the states.

Both sides wanted the other to "bend over". How do YOU suggest this could have been resolved given BOTH agendas?

Gary

The resolution is simple: Queensland Government bring in another formula, yet continue the event!

Mach

[indycool]

"my way or the highway," Miatanut?

So what? CART and CC went bankrupt. If you wanna get in F-Troop shots, you're clicking on the wrong thing.

[Miatanut]

Just for historical accuracy, F5000 was co sanctioned for at least one year by SCCA and USAC. In those days there was a lot of intermingling of disiplines, both teams and drivers, between various series (CanAm, TransAM, USAC, NASCAR, etc.). The biggest names drove in ALL of them, so it wasn't quite as cut and dried as you indicate.

I don't recall USAC having anything to do with it, but if you say so.

Yes, I remember the days when a single driver would drive Daytona, Monaco, LeMans, and CanAm. I also know it was the F1/LeMans/CanAm crowd that started CART. The roundy-roundy part of their careers was a definite minority. With tin tops or without.

[Miatanut]

"my way or the highway," Miatanut?

Why don't you try clicking on this.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/11/12/22285_gold-coast-top-story.html

TG: I need another $3,000,000 and I need the date moved away from your Spring Break weekend, or I'm taking my ball and going home. We both know you desperately NEED me, so you would be crazy to not agree.

Gold Coast: We have to run it on that weekend for it to work, and we're already giving you $11,600,000.

TG: Take it or leave it.

GC: A1GP says they would be happy to do it for the $11,600,000, so we guess we'll leave it.

[downtowndeco]

TG stated the price (and date) he needed to make it work economically for the IRL. Don't read any more into it than that, your agenda is showing.

The IRL is not in a desperate situation like A1GP is or CCWS was. The IRL can afford to pick and choose viable dates. Surfers was no longer viable. You can't fault TG for dropping a race half way around the world that was costing the teams money and not really adding anything of substance to the series.

Then again, you probably will (fault him).




Why don't you try clicking on this.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/11/12/22285_gold-coast-top-story.html

TG: I need another $3,000,000 and I need the date moved away from your Spring Break weekend, or I'm taking my ball and going home. We both know you desperately NEED me, so you would be crazy to not agree.

Gold Coast: We have to run it on that weekend for it to work, and we're already giving you $11,600,000.

TG: Take it or leave it.

GC: A1GP says they would be happy to do it for the $11,600,000, so we guess we'll leave it.

[Rex Monaco]

CART and CC went bankrupt.

And here we go again...

CART, yadda, yadda, CC, yadda, yadda, bankrupt, yadda, yadda, NASCAR and F1, yadda, yadda, saved, yadda, yadda, TG's, yadda, yadda, @$$ yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, forced, yadda, yadda, merger, yadda, yadda, or, yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, pulls out, yadda, yadda, IRL, yadda, yadda, fails.

Now can we get back to TG's latest mistake, and not rehash his past mistakes? :D

[Rex Monaco]

...your agenda is showing.

Just because you fail to hide your agenda, doesn't mean everyone here has an agenda.

Some of us just aren't convinced that TG is the best man to guide AOWR to success. His actions post-merger have been mixed at best. And that's without weighing his actions pre-merger that all but destroyed AOWR.

[downtowndeco]

What part of this do you guys not want to understand? You are asking TG to follow the same business model (chasing racings around the world) that BK both CCWS & CART. That's why it is relevant. Because what you want him to do is the same thing that (in large part) put two series out of business.

IMO you don't get it because you don't want to get it.



And here we go again...

CART, yadda, yadda, CC, yadda, yadda, bankrupt, yadda, yadda, NASCAR and F1, yadda, yadda, saved, yadda, yadda, TG's, yadda, yadda, @$$ yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, forced, yadda, yadda, merger, yadda, yadda, or, yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, pulls out, yadda, yadda, IRL, yadda, yadda, fails.

Now can we get back to TG's latest mistake, and not rehash his past mistakes? :D

[champcarray]

My reaction: I'm sorry to see Surfers fall of the calendar. I greatly enjoyed watching CART boost the international prestige of American-style open wheel racing. So while there may be many good reasons to drop Surfers, its a blow to the "vision" that I preferred. I hope the series can weather the storm and grow again in years to come.

[harvick#1]

absolutely horrible dicision by the IRL. another tradition-rich race bites the bullit. if TG wanted to be a NA oval series, why is he still going to Motegi then???? for Honda???

I'm gonna miss the Surfers race :( don't understand why a few want Phoenix back as the short tracks don't belong in F1, maybe keep one and thats Richmond, but Iowa has become a "who can be a better blocker" race and no one could ever pass at Phoenix. it would be nice to see Michigan back, but TG is just as dumb as Brian France, and only want the money, not what to keep the fans happy

[indycool]

Miatanut, that story is just plain stupid.

First, what was CART paid to go over there? Did CC get a sweetheart deal to go over there with KK in charge, and then suddenly they're aghast the tab is more responsible.?

Second, the story says that the Queensland government had been asked to throw $3 million more into the event. Now, the way the story is spun tries to say the IRL wants the $3 million addition but it writes around and doesn't quite say it. Who knows? Tony Cochrane probably wanted a raise, too. It essentially says that the promoter, of which the Queensland government is NOT the ONLY entity needed to come up with $3 million more. Some of it might well be profit for IMG, which is one of the sharing promoter entities.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Miatanut, that story is just plain stupid.

First, what was CART paid to go over there? Did CC get a sweetheart deal to go over there with KK in charge, and then suddenly they're aghast the tab is more responsible.?

Second, the story says that the Queensland government had been asked to throw $3 million more into the event. Now, the way the story is spun tries to say the IRL wants the $3 million addition but it writes around and doesn't quite say it. Who knows? Tony Cochrane probably wanted a raise, too. It essentially says that the promoter, of which the Queensland government is NOT the ONLY entity needed to come up with $3 million more. Some of it might well be profit for IMG, which is one of the sharing promoter entities.

Nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[indycool]

Whaddya mean, nonsense?

CART was strong over there and one of its problems was raising its sanction fee all the time and promoters couldn't come up with the extras. CC was weaker than CART and scrambling for dates and had an "in" with KK. So, here comes the IRL with everyone back together again, tied to Indy again which was the draw in the first place, and apparently isn't going to act like two bankrupt organizations doing it and you say nonsense? Not to mention that, as I posted, Cochrane annually asks for a raise, too, for the Supercars.

Promotion of that event is parceled out among the Queensland government, IMG and several other entities. A LOT of different entities could've been involved in asking for an additional package of $3 million.

[garyshell]

And here we go again...

CART, yadda, yadda, CC, yadda, yadda, bankrupt, yadda, yadda, NASCAR and F1, yadda, yadda, saved, yadda, yadda, TG's, yadda, yadda, @$$ yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, forced, yadda, yadda, merger, yadda, yadda, or, yadda, yadda, Honda, yadda, yadda, pulls out, yadda, yadda, IRL, yadda, yadda, fails.

Now can we get back to TG's latest mistake, and not rehash his past mistakes? :D


Just because you fail to hide your agenda, doesn't mean everyone here has an agenda.

Some of us just aren't convinced that TG is the best man to guide AOWR to success. His actions post-merger have been mixed at best. And that's without weighing his actions pre-merger that all but destroyed AOWR.


Sure we can "get back to TG's latest mistake, and not rehash his past mistakes". But only if you agree to do the same. See the very next repy from you, quoted above.

Gary

[garyshell]

absolutely horrible dicision by the IRL. another tradition-rich race bites the bullit. if TG wanted to be a NA oval series, why is he still going to Motegi then???? for Honda???

I'm gonna miss the Surfers race :( don't understand why a few want Phoenix back as the short tracks don't belong in F1, maybe keep one and thats Richmond, but Iowa has become a "who can be a better blocker" race and no one could ever pass at Phoenix. it would be nice to see Michigan back, but TG is just as dumb as Brian France, and only want the money, not what to keep the fans happy

Yep, I agree it was a horrible decision. I really loved that race and its tradition on the calendar. But, really what was the alternative? The folks over there refused to move the date and the folks here needed to move it so they could finish the season stateside and not go up against the NFL. What was the possible solution to this intractable situation?

With all the moaning and hand wringing I have not heard a single person here offer a viable solution. NOT ONE.

Gary

[Dr. Krogshöj]

absolutely horrible dicision by the IRL. another tradition-rich race bites the bullit. if TG wanted to be a NA oval series, why is he still going to Motegi then???? for Honda???

I'm gonna miss the Surfers race :( don't understand why a few want Phoenix back as the short tracks don't belong in F1, maybe keep one and thats Richmond, but Iowa has become a "who can be a better blocker" race and no one could ever pass at Phoenix. it would be nice to see Michigan back, but TG is just as dumb as Brian France, and only want the money, not what to keep the fans happy

[Off topic on] Short tracks don't belong in F1 but they definitely belong in Indycar. Have you seen this year's races at Milwaukee and Iowa? They had loads of nice passing. On the other hand, without traffic, you could hardly pass anyone on the 1.5 mile tracks because you're flat out and you only have to stick to the inside to defend your position. [Off topic off]

[DBell]

Second, the story says that the Queensland government had been asked to throw $3 million more into the event. Now, the way the story is spun tries to say the IRL wants the $3 million addition but it writes around and doesn't quite say it.


The first 2 paragraphs of the Goldcoast article:


THE Indy Racing League tried to gouge more than $3 million a year extra out of Queensland taxpayers and, having first agreed to hold the race in October, then reneged on the deal.

Not content with the $11.6 million a year already poured into the event, the IRL demanded another $3 million and a date change.

It seems to me the article flat out states that the IRL asked for an additional 3 million to the fee.

[indycool]

Yes, it does. That's a good spin from down there because it's a face saver for 'em. But the Queensland government isn't the only promotional entity involved in the event and its other partners (IMG, etc.) would also be involved in any deal. It would NOT be the IRL just asking the Queensland government for $3 million. It wouldn't work that way, in reality.

No complaint here, really. A1GP is more suited to do the deal and that's fine. As I have already posted, the IRL seems to be making it clear that it wants to shore up the North American market before it goes globetrotting. Makes sense to me when two series just went bankrupt doing it the other way.

[CCWS77]

The IRL is not in a desperate situation like A1GP is or CCWS was. The IRL can afford to pick and choose viable dates. Surfers was no longer viable. You can't fault TG for dropping a race half way around the world that was costing the teams money and not really adding anything of substance to the series.

Then again, you probably will (fault him).

What a bunch of nonsense!

If the IRL was stable then they would keep a race with international prestige even if actually cost money. Instead, the IRL is in the position of carefully selecting individual races that fit its current sponsors and finances and is NOT looking at the long term or the big picture at all. What sponsors could be gained from it in the future? Who cares, we need an emergency focus right now on pleasing current sponsors and domestic fans before they bail!

[downtowndeco]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth at once. Your post makes no sense.


What a bunch of nonsense!

If the IRL was stable then they would keep a race with international prestige even if actually cost money. Instead, the IRL is in the position of carefully selecting individual races that fit its current sponsors and finances and is NOT looking at the long term or the big picture at all. What sponsors could be gained from it in the future? Who cares, we need an emergency focus right now on pleasing current sponsors and domestic fans before they bail!

[indycool]

Ditto, dd. First he's pitching international. Then he says the IRL needs to please its domestic fans. Well, the latter is what the IRL seems to be trying to do, so I guess he can complain ablout the other.

[NickFalzone]

Well of course the truth is that there are all kinds of fans. Some want American only, drivers, tracks, engines, all the way down the line. Others want an international A1 type series. Others, perhaps the largest group, want something in the middle like CART was before the split. But it's assinine to act like you or anyone here speaks for all the fans. As soon at TG makes a move in one direction, he has people complaining from another. All the trolls come out of the woodwork when they think they've been slighted. Which is not to say that bad decisions and bad management are nonexistent, but that trying to appease everyone involves compromises. I think dropping Surfer's was a compromise, no one wanted to do it, but it didn't make sense in the big picture right now. Hopefully soon it can come back.

[F1boat]

Yes, it does. That's a good spin from down there because it's a face saver for 'em. But the Queensland government isn't the only promotional entity involved in the event and its other partners (IMG, etc.) would also be involved in any deal. It would NOT be the IRL just asking the Queensland government for $3 million. It wouldn't work that way, in reality.

No complaint here, really. A1GP is more suited to do the deal and that's fine. As I have already posted, the IRL seems to be making it clear that it wants to shore up the North American market before it goes globetrotting. Makes sense to me when two series just went bankrupt doing it the other way.

I agree and we are in a crisis, after all. Costs should be cut.

[millencolin]

Won't miss it a bit. It's just too far to go for a wet tee shirt contest. I hate street races...but "different strokes"...



Wet t-shirt competitions are for the weak and feeble :p : Indy far far FAR outranks that... some of the stuff makes 'girls gone wild' look like sesame street


Who is the real winner here? The QLD gov't. Even though i hate the sports minister Judy Spence more than anybody, they did well out of this. They scored a series who will bend over backwards for them, for an event where most of the crowd come to get blind and party like its 1999

Having the IRL was good for us racing fanatics, but we are far outnumbered.

As i mentioned, My time as a Indycar fan has come to an end, I was a Indy fan first, then became an AOWR fan.

Peace out homies

[nigelred5]

Well, nigel, a bit of history. Long Beach switched from F1 to Indy cars because it couldn't afford F1 any more and the lure was INDY cars, the cars and drivers of the Indianapolis 500. For 12 years, that has not been the case. Now, again, it will be, and if you ask Long Beach GM Jim Michaelian about it, returning to that tie is going to be an important draw in the U.S. Previous to this, attendance was going down at Long Beach and the blending of the series should be the START of going back up, all things considered.


Well, I guess I'll wait to see who's right. I agree the cars and drivers of hte Indy 500 USED to be a draw. I can hardly say they are anywhere near the draw they were in the 80's and early 90's. LongBeach is just as much of an excuse to "be seen" as Surfers is to party. Honestly, the track layout hasn't been very good for years.

[namarow]

WOW

so they killed it!??!?

I have been away from this madness. I realized that watching a sport should not be so stressful and demoralizing.

But having seen the headline ( all I can see as I let my AR1 subscription lapse) I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are.

Nothing has changed. But I have, as have alot of other die hards. When Mondy comes to Toronto, about a mile from me, I will up north enjoying the sun, water, and and perhaps enjoying my new favorite sport... Motorcycle racing!!!

What a joke

[downtowndeco]

Read the thread before you start blaming anyone. Unless, of course, you have a preconceived idea who's at fault before you even know the facts. Typical CCF.



WOW

so they killed it!??!?

I have been away from this madness. I realized that watching a sport should not be so stressful and demoralizing.

But having seen the headline ( all I can see as I let my AR1 subscription lapse) I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are.

Nothing has changed. But I have, as have alot of other die hards. When Mondy comes to Toronto, about a mile from me, I will up north enjoying the sun, water, and and perhaps enjoying my new favorite sport... Motorcycle racing!!!

What a joke

[garyshell]

Read the thread before you start blaming anyone. Unless, of course, you have a preconceived idea who's at fault before you even know the facts. Typical CCF.


Back off, will ya? Enough with suggesting everyone who dares say anything against King George is "typical CCF". When will this ever stop? I know for FACT that nmarrow is not "typical CCF". And know for FACT that you owe nmarrow an apology for suggesting that he is "typical CCF".

Starter may break out the ruler and whack me across the knuckles, but I have had just about enough of you and your constant "us versus them" bull.

When I was summarily given my count down at CCF over the Paul Tracy incident, nmarrow was one of the folks who dared rise to my defense. Hardly what I would call "typical CCF". So, how about letting folks actually display "typical CCF" traits, BEFORE you make your preconceived branding of them as "typical CCF" just because they raise some concern.

Gary

[garyshell]

WOW

so they killed it!??!?

I have been away from this madness. I realized that watching a sport should not be so stressful and demoralizing.

But having seen the headline ( all I can see as I let my AR1 subscription lapse) I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are.

Nothing has changed. But I have, as have alot of other die hards. When Mondy comes to Toronto, about a mile from me, I will up north enjoying the sun, water, and and perhaps enjoying my new favorite sport... Motorcycle racing!!!

What a joke


It wasn't killed so much as it was a mutually assured destruction exercise. ICS needed to finish the season stateside and do so before the NFL kicked in to their season. Surfers didn't want a date that lined up with Montegi, or any other date for that matter, and with equally good reason. They had the same sort of clash with other major sporting events in their region. In the end it came down to a challenge of calendars and schedules, dispite Mark C's headlines that seemed to imply something more more sinister. Yes, there was also an issue of money, but that was NEVER the real stumbling block.

And just ignore downtowndeco. Every one is "typical CCF" that doesn't kiss King George's ring as far as downtowndeco is concerned.

You know I am no King George appologist, but I don't think we can lay this one at his feet. I do think he did want to see the event on the schedule. But there just didn't seem to be a workable solution.

Gary

[indycool]

Best post yet on it, Gary.

[downtowndeco]

He didn't know any of the details, yet he felt he needed to post;

"so they killed it!??!?"

"I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are. "

"Nothing has changed."

"What a joke"

You TELL me he was a member of CCF (as were you) then get all offended because I say he sounds like he was a member of CCF.

Yeah sure, he was fair & balanced. (insert smirk here).

Perhaps Gary you are the one who is blinded by bias.

While I may be quick to pounce on guys that I see as not fans of the IRL but that are just here to wave the "We hate TG" flag, you seem to want to give them all a pass (even if you do gently try to "explain" things to them).

I don't take it back. He sounded like he was a member of CCF and it turned out he was. Anyone who has ever belonged to such a hateful, fanatical, imature site can't just have it written off as "Well, I wasn't one of the bad guys there, others were worse".










Back off, will ya? Enough with suggesting everyone who dares say anything against King George is "typical CCF". When will this ever stop? I know for FACT that nmarrow is not "typical CCF". And know for FACT that you owe nmarrow an apology for suggesting that he is "typical CCF".

Starter may break out the ruler and whack me across the knuckles, but I have had just about enough of you and your constant "us versus them" bull.

When I was summarily given my count down at CCF over the Paul Tracy incident, nmarrow was one of the folks who dared rise to my defense. Hardly what I would call "typical CCF". So, how about letting folks actually display "typical CCF" traits, BEFORE you make your preconceived branding of them as "typical CCF" just because they raise some concern.

Gary

[indycool]

dd, Gary was a CART/CC fan who doesn't like much of anything TG has done and that's where he and I differ. But of any of the posters here or anywhere else, most of whom talked for years about a combined series being better than two, Gary has consistently argued that point with all the F-Troopers who have shown up here and has accepted and embraced the sense of it all despite his personal feelings about TG. I can accept and embrace that as well above the pettiness of others.

[garyshell]

He didn't know any of the details, yet he felt he needed to post;

"so they killed it!??!?"

"I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are. "

"Nothing has changed."

"What a joke"

You TELL me he was a member of CCF (as were you) then get all offended because I say he sounds like he was a member of CCF.

Yeah sure, he was fair & balanced. (insert smirk here).

Perhaps Gary you are the one who is blinded by bias.

While I may be quick to pounce on guys that I see as not fans of the IRL but that are just here to wave the "We hate TG" flag, you seem to want to give them all a pass (even if you do gently try to "explain" things to them).

I don't take it back. He sounded like he was a member of CCF and it turned out he was. Anyone who has ever belonged to such a hateful, fanatical, imature site can't just have it written off as "Well, I wasn't one of the bad guys there, others were worse".


You just know everything about everyone don't you? Guess what Skippy some of us were members on CCF and didn't drink the koolaid they were serving. Some of us were there and tried to offset the FTG voices with some more balanced views on the realities of the business. Some of us were pushed out because we dared to have such an attitude. You have no clue what transpired at CCF, so don't be so sanctimonious. The only way anyone could voice any opinion on CCF (for or against the koolaid) was to join the forum, just as it is here. So membership is NOT a measure of "typical CCF" in the context you used that term.

Your "typical CCF" comment was not about his membership, it was about YOUR prejudice toward anyone who dares to suggest King George is ever wrong. Don't try to hide from that fact.

I'm done with this conversation, at least until you try to brand someone else again. Especially someone I happen to know does not deserve such a branding.

BTW you might want to get your facts straight, if you bother to look I think you will find I don't give ANYONE a pass regardless of which side of the fence they WERE on. I do try to explain things as I see them to folks who I disagree with. You might want to try that sometime, instead of branding them so you can conveniently pigeon hole them.

Gary

[CCWS77]

The IRL can afford to pick and choose viable dates.

The IRL is choosing not to race at events with more exposure, prestige and crowds in order to instead just race at financially secure but less significant events that are easy and dont take alot of work or resources to make happen. We see this with Surfers and elswhere such as the news that came out of Vegas, rememer that?

If that is smart or necessary depends on the budget, but don't spin that as being a great indicator of future planning and growth. Total BS!

[downtowndeco]

A guy comes in here and says; "I am amazed at just how retarded Tony George and company are. " and you get on me for judging him too quickly? I'm judging him by his words. And as far as whether he was one of the good guys at CCF or not all I can say is if you lie down with dogs you're gonna get fleas.

I'm done with this too. If Starter wants to ban me so be it, he's always been pretty fair around here. But I'm going to call them like I see them.







You just know everything about everyone don't you? Guess what Skippy some of us were members on CCF and didn't drink the koolaid they were serving. Some of us were there and tried to offset the FTG voices with some more balanced views on the realities of the business. Some of us were pushed out because we dared to have such an attitude. You have no clue what transpired at CCF, so don't be so sanctimonious. The only way anyone could voice any opinion on CCF (for or against the koolaid) was to join the forum, just as it is here. So membership is NOT a measure of "typical CCF" in the context you used that term.

Your "typical CCF" comment was not about his membership, it was about YOUR prejudice toward anyone who dares to suggest King George is ever wrong. Don't try to hide from that fact.

I'm done with this conversation, at least until you try to brand someone else again. Especially someone I happen to know does not deserve such a branding.

BTW you might want to get your facts straight, if you bother to look I think you will find I don't give ANYONE a pass regardless of which side of the fence they WERE on. I do try to explain things as I see them to folks who I disagree with. You might want to try that sometime, instead of branding them so you can conveniently pigeon hole them.

Gary

[indycool]

CCWS77, exposure WHERE? Just watching Survivor in Gabon on network TV right now and I've never even heard of Gabon and sure ain't gonna spend any tourista dollars to go there.

The IRL is taking the series NATIONAL first in the U.S. and Canada. It seems to have no desire to be F1 Lights. The IRL does NOT need Surfers to do this. Anyone who thinks it a wonderful thing to go to Ansan and Zhuhai oughta talk to the brainless wonders who tried to put those together for whatever reason. Prestige? What prestige? Ask Aunt Sadie in Omaha if she's ever heard of Ansan or Zhuhai but she's probably heard of Iowa and Kentucky.

"Race at financially secure but less significant" events? It would be significant if I bought a Ferrari but I wouldn't be financially secure, so what good is the Ferrari until it's repoed after one month? CART and CC found out.

[CCWS77]

If the idea is to sacrifice a historically succesful event and cast off part of the previous market because of a specific strategic marketing vision to create a completely North American product, well I think that is a dumb mistake but at least it makes logical sense and shows forethought.

There is no evidence that is what happened here. The IRL did NOT announce Surfers did not fit into the future vision and they would not be raincg there. What happened? They failed to negotiate terms for future races after publicly trying. nothing about the way this happened, especially with the 1 year exhibition, suggests anyone at the IRL was taking some kind of principled long term plan to turn them down. The only thing that didn't fit into thier plan were logistics and dollar signs. If you think it was a difficult choice that was necessary economically well ok at least that is defensible, but how anyone can really buy the idea that is some kind of principled choice about where to race, is beyond me. The shrillness of that propoganda position is off the scale because even the IRL officials aren't claiming anything like that. They tried to keep the race and failed, end of story. It isn't the end of the IRL or anything but it sure as hell is not good news created by a thought out plan.

[garyshell]

The IRL is choosing not to race at events with more exposure, prestige and crowds in order to instead just race at financially secure but less significant events that are easy and dont take alot of work or resources to make happen. We see this with Surfers and elswhere such as the news that came out of Vegas, rememer that?

If that is smart or necessary depends on the budget, but don't spin that as being a great indicator of future planning and growth. Total BS!

Ok, so what was YOUR solution to the situation at Surfer's? How would YOU have fixed it given this slate of priorities:

Surfers Paradise Prerequisites
1. Race must be run on existing date.
2. Spring dates conflict with other racing and other major sporting events (football)

ICS Prerequisites.
1. Season must end in the USA
2. Season must end by October first to prevent conflicts with the NFL

So, how do YOU fix this?

They aren't CHOOSING to not race at Surfer's, they could not find a way that they COULD race at Surfer's there is a big difference. Unless you can figure out a way that none of them could.

Gary

[garyshell]

They tried to keep the race and failed, end of story.

First you say they choose to not race there, now you say they tried and couldn't work it out. I am confused. Which is it? It can't be both.

If they TRIED but couldn't find a solution to the schedule issue, isn't that an indication that it was a thought out plan. If there was no thought out plan they would have just said OK we'll be back in October next year. We don't care if the season ends in the USA, and we don't care if we go head to head with the NFL, and we don't care if we have to figure out how to finance two trips across the Pacific each year. It sounds like they DID think it out and tried to find a solution and failed as you said above.

Gary

[indycool]

It takes two to tango. Surfers couldn't do things the IRL needed. The IRL couldn't do some things Surfers needed. So it didn't work. When you go fingerpointing, it's either both's fault or neither's fault.

[beachbum]

Most of this thread is fighting yesterday's wars. Gary, you nailed the issues. The "new" IRL is not the other series, or A1GP, or ... whatever.

IMHO, Surfers just didn't make sense for the IRL. Too expensive, too far from the corporate and sponsor business base, and the IRL isn't about street racing.

Surfers will survive on its own merits, just as Long Beach has survived over the years with different series, from F5000 to F1, to CART, then Champ Car, and now the IRL. If the main draw is the festival, which open wheel series is racing is not the main focus. If anything A1GP makes a lot more sense for them as it is, by design, an international series that runs in the time of year they want to run.

I see the change as a win-win for all involved - including the Aussie fans who will probably see better racing with cars designed solely for road racing.

[MDS]

To all the Aussies who are supposedly so happy to get the A1GP series as your headliners consider this. The odds of that series being around for next year, much less the length of the contract, is pretty low.


According to the UK Financial Times, hedge fund RAB Capital, which owns A1GP, could be shut down unless investors agree to lock up their money for three years.
James Mackintosh, writing in the FT, said RAB Capital chief executive Philip Richards had seriously gone off track.
"He made two disastrous investment decisions: he bought a controlling stake in A1 Grand Prix, the motor racing series, and became the second-largest shareholder in Northern Rock, the failed bank," Mr Mackintosh said.
"The holding in A1 – which cost about $230 million including financing – has been written down to almost nothing."
The UK Financial News said RAB Capital's holding in A1GP had been written down three times this year, most recently in August, to a negligible value.
Other European financial reports said it could be as much as $350 million in the red.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,27574,24656905-3102,00.html

[Rex Monaco]

Anyone who has ever belonged to such a hateful, fanatical, imature site can't just have it written off as "Well, I wasn't one of the bad guys there, others were worse".

Maybe he was just some guy in the neighborhood? :D

[Rex Monaco]

So, how do YOU fix this?

These are non-issues if the desire is there to keep the race.

A season ender anywhere in the US will draw a smaller crowd than Australia. (See NASCAR)

Other sports compete with Football. (See NASCAR)

[garyshell]

These are non-issues if the desire is there to keep the race.

A season ender anywhere in the US will draw a smaller crowd than Australia. (See NASCAR)

Other sports compete with Football. (See NASCAR)

Hello? Do you have a clue about the business aspect of this? Oh no that's right you could care less about the business of this, after all that is what's wrong with racing isn't it. Take the business out and the "real" racers will all come running back. (See Walter Mitty.)

Look, like it or not this IS a business. And like it or not, unlike you, the business interests involved are less concerned with the size of the Australian crowd than they are with hosting the final race in the states. And also like it or not these same business interests, unlike you, realize the folly in trying to go up against the NFL juggernaut, because THEY realize that AWOR is no where near the size of NASCAR. And, by the way, even NASCAR is beginning to have second thoughts about extending their season as late as they have.

You seem to so cavalierly reject these realities as "non issues". But I guess that is your way of saying there was no way to fix it, given the stated issues. Let me turn the tables a bit. If the folks at Surfers wanted to keep the race so badly why were THEY not willing to go back to a spring (for us, fall for them) race? They rejected that because of conflicts with their football season, right? But, wait, if NASCAR can go against the NFL, then the Surfer's folks ought to be able to go up against their football, right?

Gary

[indycool]

So a season-ender in Australia that costs everybody a bunch of money and is a throwaway race for U.S. sponsors supercedes a U.S. race to close out the season in front of people who have been watching it all year and attended races? Baloney.

[CCWS77]

Why are you asking me? Don't they have full time employees to plan this stuff? I never claimed to be able to solve all the IRL's problems. I was just responding to this nonsense cheerleading that dropping Surfers is somehow good news or a good long term planning. If the IRL can not find a way to make popular events fit into its buisness plans, that seems like a problem to be solved, not something to be cheered as great. Suggesting random fans need to solve these problems, or that it isnt a problem at all, frankly makes you sound silly. If there genuinely is no solution, well you call that being between a rock and a hard place. That doesnt make it good news

[AussieV8]

If the folks at Surfers wanted to keep the race so badly why were THEY not willing to go back to a spring (for us, fall for them) race? They rejected that because of conflicts with their football season, right? But, wait, if NASCAR can go against the NFL, then the Surfer's folks ought to be able to go up against their football, right?


It's actually a conflict with the Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix in Autumn. Next year it will be held towards the end of March. As a country, Australia isn't big enough to have two major open wheel races only a few weeks apart and Formula 1 is far more popular than IndyCar here.

The conflict in our spring isn't just a conflict with the start of the football season, it's a conflict with two grand finals. One for the AFL (aussie rules) and one for NRL (rugby league). In a battle for crowds and sponsors, September is a no go zone. The V8's don't bother. They have the Phillip Island 500 at the start of September before the final series really kick off and then the Bathurst 1000 a week after the NRL grand final in early October.

When it boils down to it, IRL weren't happy with the October date and the QLD government weren't happy with September or March. **** happens, and there isn't much we can do about it.

IMHO the IRL should have kept it on as a non championship race for next year and then in 2010 plan for a championship decider on 1 Nov, the week after the Surfers race. It's the start of the NFL season, not the end of it. If the finale of the IRL championship can't compete with the start of football, then it really shows how insignificant open wheel racing in the USA has become. Ultimately, the fault of this lies with TG for the whole split in the first place.

[garyshell]

Why are you asking me? Don't they have full time employees to plan this stuff? I never claimed to be able to solve all the IRL's problems.

Why am I asking you? Because you insisted that they choose not to race at surfers. When in reality they were unable to find a way that allowed them to do so, given the prerequisites stated earlier. If they, as you suggested, made a choice, the implication is that there was some workable alternative that they walked away from. I wanted to know what that alternative was.

I never suggested that not racing at Surfer's was a good thing or an indication of some good master plan. I think it was neither. All I ever said was that it was not possible to work out because each side had some requirements that were mutually exclusive.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

IMHO the IRL should have kept it on as a non championship race for next year and then in 2010 plan for a championship decider on 1 Nov, the week after the Surfers race. It's the start of the NFL season, not the end of it. If the finale of the IRL championship can't compete with the start of football, then it really shows how insignificant open wheel racing in the USA has become. Ultimately, the fault of this lies with TG for the whole split in the first place.

+1

[garyshell]

IMHO the IRL should have kept it on as a non championship race for next year and then in 2010 plan for a championship decider on 1 Nov, the week after the Surfers race. It's the start of the NFL season, not the end of it. If the finale of the IRL championship can't compete with the start of football, then it really shows how insignificant open wheel racing in the USA has become. Ultimately, the fault of this lies with TG for the whole split in the first place.

I agree on the fault issue, however Nov. 1 is hardly the start of the NFL season, it started on Sept 4. Trust me, just about EVERYTHING is insignificant against the NFL juggernaut.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Hello? Do you have a clue about the business aspect of this? Oh no that's right you could care less about the business of this, after all that is what's wrong with racing isn't it. Take the business out and the "real" racers will all come running back.

Leaving aside your continued condescending tone, racing is a sport first. It's a sport where the equipment and the facilities cost huge amounts of money. And it's a sport where local governments don't 'generally' use public money to build facilities (street races are one of the very few exceptions).

It is also one of the few sports whose equipment has a direct tie to large consumer purchases, automobiles. Selling cars was the original intent for distance and speed contests and is the sole reason we have the Indy 500 today.

So first and foremost, the business case needs to satisfy auto makers. The concept of rolling billboards are a recent phenomenom in motorsports. Are they necessary? Well the sport of racing takes place all over the world without them.

But there is the need for automakers and sponsors to keep the sport alive at this level. Automakers are drawn to series for many reasons, Honda and Toyota initially to get an Indy 500 win on their short racing histories. Automakers are drawn to a series who have stable rules and competition. Sponsors are drawn to series with a well developed or growing fan base.

The failure to agree to keep a long standing race, does not make the series look stable. The IRL subsidized the series for years. It could have found a way to keep this race to maintain stability and keep some of it's diminshing fanbase.

So yes, I understand the need for automaker and sponsor money to keep this sport alive. But that does not make it a business, it's still a sport.

[Rex Monaco]

Trust me, just about EVERYTHING is insignificant against the NFL juggernaut.

Well I have 150+ channels, and a very small percentage of them actually show any type of football game, NFL or otherwise. So evidently there is a market for people who don't watch football.

And go outside on a game day. A huge amount of people are ignoring the relatively small percentage of the population who are religously tied to their game day TV set.

[garyshell]

It could have found a way to keep this race to maintain stability and keep some of it's diminshing fanbase.

You keep saying this, over and over. How can they keep the race when the only date acceptable to the local promoter falls after the end of the season?


Gary

[indycool]

Rex, you're living far into the past if you think that business has not caught up with sporting events.

In the '50s, baseball was the great national pastime but the players weren't getting paid much. Now, utility infielders have agents and lawyers and get $1.5 million as second-stringers. Television rights fees started long ago, putting more money into the pot. Corporate suites and new stadia and arenas have appeared. Ticket prices have risen to keep pace. Manny Ramirez is about to get more than $100 million over seven or eight years.

Today, in colleges, we have sports business classes. There are sports business programs, agencies, studies and publications.

Money has made it a business. Times have changed.

[gofastandwynn]

It's the start of the NFL season, not the end of it. If the finale of the IRL championship can't compete with the start of football, then it really shows how insignificant open wheel racing in the USA has become.

Hey, guess what DW said on Wind Tunnell? That NASCAR need to end it's season before the NFL season starts. Huh, I guess then nascar is insignificant as well.

PS, wasn't ending the season before the start of the NFL season a CART idea from the Andrew Craig era?

PPS, Dosen't your theory make Surfers Paradise as an event insignificant since they didn't was to move dates to avoid competing againist football?

[Rex Monaco]

How can they keep the race when the only date acceptable to the local promoter falls after the end of the season?

Change the end of your season, so that it ends in Australia during Football season. Whats so hard about that?

Motorsports are going to compete with some sport during the seaon, be it baseball, basketball, golf or skateboarding. So why be afraid of Football season?

[garyshell]

Change the end of your season, so that it ends in Australia during Football season. Whats so hard about that?

Motorsports are going to compete with some sport during the seaon, be it baseball, basketball, golf or skateboarding. So why be afraid of Football season?


What's so hard about that? Oh, I don't know, maybe keeping the sponsor's happy. They want the season to end in the US and they don't want to be competing for eyeballs against the NFL. Both of those had been clearly delineated as "must haves" going into this. Why not say the same thing to the folks at Surfer's? They couldn't do that either, they had the same sort of list of "must haves". You make it sound like it was so simple to ignore those prerequisites.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Money has made it a business. Times have changed.

Far from living in the past, I'm living in the future. Times haven't changed, so much as times change. Time and change is a constant. You cannot stop either of them.

We are in the midst of a huge economic reshuffeling. To survive, change is needed. Forwards, backwards or sideways. Any endeavor that requires investors to maintain their business model needs to change ASAP and stop living in last years business model.

The split created a huge problem for the IRL in this climate. In the past, you could allow older tubs and engines to run with the newer ones. The IRL doesn't have the ability to use that method to cost down.

The current rules do not even permit the use of an old Toyota, GM or Nissan engine. So the rule that was created "to keep costs low", is now the rule that might help kill the series during this economic downturn.

[indycool]

Rex, Surfers couldn't keep the event's status with a date change and the IRL couldn't keep its status in the U.S. without it. Bottom line: It just doesn't work.

[Rex Monaco]

Oh, I don't know, maybe keeping the sponsor's happy. They want the season to end in the US and they don't want to be competing for eyeballs against the NFL.

Do you have a link where a current or potential sponsor has said this is an issue with them? I keep seeing people say that this what the sponsors want, but I've never seen where a sponsor actually stated this.

[indycool]

Don't have a link, but sponsors were certainly vocal to CART in the '80s when it proposed to go to Japan. Times have changed since then, though. But I've heard that Penske has said he wouldn't go down there if it wasn't a points race. Call Sonny's Bar-B-Q and see what those guys think. I already posted what was announced at the time of Penske's switch to the IRL was dictated by the sponsor (Marlboro), which had its international interest in F1 and this was the U.S. arm of Marlboro paying the bills. As someone else already posted pages ago, there are different entities of these global companies with separate sets of books in different situations. It would be an absolute quagmire of negotiations to hafta sell a sponsorship to different entities of the same company for each country that you go to, an absolute goat-breeding exercise.