Ralf or Timo: Who did a better job?

[gloomyDAY]

I feel as if this will be difficult to debate since it is Glock's freshman season with Toyota and nowhere near the number of grand prix starts as Ralf. So, what do you think? Any predictions for the future?

Discuss. :D

[gloomyDAY]

Ooops! Wrong section.

Mods: Please move.

[CNR]

add to that how much has the car improved this year

[F1boat]

Well, RS scored an unlikely Pole to the team, although it was in weird circumstances. However, Glock scored a podium finish and was considerably closer to Trulli, so I have to say that Timo did a better job.

[ioan]

Well, RS scored an unlikely Pole to the team, although it was in weird circumstances. However, Glock scored a podium finish and was considerably closer to Trulli, so I have to say that Timo did a better job.

Ralf beat Trulli more often than not, so I'm a bit lost where you got that.

[jens]

Who did a better job? This question sounds like if Ralf had been driving that 08 Toyota instead of Timo, then who would have come out on top?

In the first half of the season Glock was struggling and adapting to the car/team. So in that half Ralf would have probably performed better if he was driving instead of Timo.

But the second half of the season was a really strong performance by Glock. In qualis he usually still is a couple of fractions short of Trulli's time, but his race pace is consistently threatening - something also Jarno finds difficult to match at times.

Overall I have great belief in Glock and think that he - like also his team-mate Trulli - is kinda overlooked, while other drivers are awarded with deep discussions and analysis.

Despite being a fan of Jarno I feel Timo will beat him in 2009. Glock somehow seems more consistent and as he is quick too, he may turn into a genuine top driver (something no-one would have believed, eh?). If he finds a couple of tenths in qualifying too, then he will be a very strong driver in every department. He is also a great fighter in battles plus his wet weather skills have improved significantly compared to the earlier phase of the season (Monaco, Silverstone). Trulli has proved to be a difficult driver to beat in his career (even Alonso was far from blowing him away), so if Glock shows well against him, it's IMO a very good sign.

I feel the Trulli-Glock line-up has helped to find stability in the Toyota team generally too. Ralf's and Jarno's driving styles were contrasting and as team couldn't decide, which to support (shifted it at times). However, unlike Ralf Timo has agreed to change his driving style accordingly to enable the team to work in one direction. It's not exactly a criticism on younger Schumi, also I haven't heard anyone in the team complaining about him in retrospect. He had his own views/opinions about the future and car, but Jarno and Timo simply get on well. :)

[ioan]

People are comparing a multiple race winner with a driver who has troubles beating Trulli?!

RS might not have been the equal of his brother, but was certainly the equal of Montoya and a better race driver than Trulli.

[jens]

People are comparing a multiple race winner with a driver who has troubles beating Trulli?!

RS might not have been the equal of his brother, but was certainly the equal of Montoya and a better race driver than Trulli.

Ralf may indeed be a multiple race winner that Timo isn't, but we are comparing their (relative) performance, not statistics, which at the moment are indeed in favour of RS. And didn't Ralf and other drivers before him have troubles with beating Trulli too? So what's wrong with Glock in this area? ;)

[PolePosition_1]

People are comparing a multiple race winner with a driver who has troubles beating Trulli?!

RS might not have been the equal of his brother, but was certainly the equal of Montoya and a better race driver than Trulli.

I'm at a loss if you believe that Ralf and Montoya were equally matched. Ralf had the better of JPM in JPM's first half of the season, from that point onwards, JPM dominated Ralf.

[jens]

I'm at a loss if you believe that Ralf and Montoya were equally matched. Ralf had the better of JPM in JPM's first half of the season, from that point onwards, JPM dominated Ralf.

"Dominated" is the wrong word here. "Beat narrowly" would be more appropriate. It still puzzles, how people's memory serves JPM a lot more dominant driver over RS than he actually was. Probably something to do with entertainment factor, which makes JPM obviously a more memorable driver.

[PolePosition_1]

"Dominated" is the wrong word here. "Beat narrowly" would be more appropriate. It still puzzles, how people's memory serves JPM a lot more dominant driver over RS than he actually was. Probably something to do with entertainment factor, which makes JPM obviously a more memorable driver.

I don't see how you can say he narrowly beat Ralf. In the first year, Ralf was ahead on final standings, but the second half of the season had edge on him.

In 2002 he beat Ralf, not comprehensively, but pretty compentently.

Then in 2003, JPM challenged for the title until last but one race, while Ralf lagged behind.

And in 2004, JPM scored more than double Ralfs points.

I'm sorry, but there was a strong correlation of JPM and Ralf performance at their William days. One which started with Ralf and JPM being even, ending in total domination of Ralf by Montoya.

[ioan]

Ralf may indeed be a multiple race winner that Timo isn't, but we are comparing their (relative) performance, not statistics, which at the moment are indeed in favour of RS. And didn't Ralf and other drivers before him have troubles with beating Trulli too? So what's wrong with Glock in this area? ;)

We have a common denominator, no make that 2: the same team mate and the same team!

Let's see:
2005 : Ralf beats Jarno
2006 : Ralf beats Jarno
2007 : Jarno beats Ralf
2008 : Jarno beats Timo

In a somewhat graphic way, for now:

RALF > Jarno > timo

If you have better proof than be my guest.

[ioan]

I don't see how you can say he narrowly beat Ralf. In the first year, Ralf was ahead on final standings, but the second half of the season had edge on him.

In 2002 he beat Ralf, not comprehensively, but pretty compentently.

Then in 2003, JPM challenged for the title until last but one race, while Ralf lagged behind.

And in 2004, JPM scored more than double Ralfs points.

I'm sorry, but there was a strong correlation of JPM and Ralf performance at their William days. One which started with Ralf and JPM being even, ending in total domination of Ralf by Montoya.

How many times did Montoya end in the hospital with severe injuries and had to skip races as a result?

They both were showed the door in the end, and I still maintain that they were more or less equal.

[jens]

I don't see how you can say he narrowly beat Ralf. In the first year, Ralf was ahead on final standings, but the second half of the season had edge on him.

In 2002 he beat Ralf, not comprehensively, but pretty compentently.

Then in 2003, JPM challenged for the title until last but one race, while Ralf lagged behind.

And in 2004, JPM scored more than double Ralfs points.

I'm sorry, but there was a strong correlation of JPM and Ralf performance at their William days. One which started with Ralf and JPM being even, ending in total domination of Ralf by Montoya.

In 2004 Ralf missed almost half of the races, so to say that JPM destroyed RS that season is quite unfair. In 2003 Ralf stayed in title contention for 2/3 of the season, so he was quite far from being 'dominated'.

[jens]

We have a common denominator, no make that 2: the same team mate and the same team!

Let's see:
2005 : Ralf beats Jarno
2006 : Ralf beats Jarno
2007 : Jarno beats Ralf
2008 : Jarno beats Timo

In a somewhat graphic way, for now:

RALF > Jarno > timo

If you have better proof than be my guest.

On the forums it has been discussed many times that driver comparisons should be more based on their actual performances rather than pure points.

Firstly, what you don't take into account is that this was Glock's first full season and surely he was disappointing in the beginning, but he is an improving driver, something that the second part of 2008 clearly showed. Secondly, I don't quite agree with this Ralf > Jarno statement. :p : You seem to rely too much on points score, but in my view for example in 2005 performance-wise Jarno was the more impressive driver over the full season.

[ioan]

On the forums it has been discussed many times that driver comparisons should be more based on their actual performances rather than pure points.

Firstly, what you don't take into account is that this was Glock's first full season and surely he was disappointing in the beginning, but he is an improving driver, something that the second part of 2008 clearly showed. Secondly, I don't quite agree with this Ralf > Jarno statement. :p : You seem to rely too much on points score, but in my view for example in 2005 performance-wise Jarno was the more impressive driver over the full season.

It certainly was Glock's first full F1 season, but the question was asked now not next year.

PS: We could also argue that maybe Glock had fever more often than ralf or Jarno when they were kids, but I doubt it would help the conclusion of this thread! ;)

[PolePosition_1]

How many times did Montoya end in the hospital with severe injuries and had to skip races as a result?

They both were showed the door in the end, and I still maintain that they were more or less equal.


Fair cop, I forgot about Ralf's injury for 2004.

However, in races they competed, he dominated.

And how you can claim he was shown the door - well its beyond me, it makes me ask myself if you even watched F1 back then to come up with such fiction.

[raphael_2]

Yes...wasn't Ralf prepared to drive for Force India....but not even they wanted him lol?

While Juan-Pablo, while still undecided where to go for 2006, decided he fancied a change of scenery at the end of the season, and McLaren got annoyed so decided not to race him for the rest of that season. JPM was still being chased by other F1 teams at the time, and teams are still approaching NOW even though he hasn't been around for a couple of years.

It's easy to make a case for Ralf to suggest he only narrowly missed out on beating Montoya - but anyone who actually watched the races, will see how JPM generally had the upperhand. Ralf would have 3-4 races a year - where he would shine, and the other 12-13 races he would be very average.

Ralf on his day was a world beater - his only downfall was the fact that 'his day' would come about once or twice a year!

[BDunnell]

I don't think a meaningful comparison can be made — yet. Simple as that.