Bravo Ferrari - Taking a good stance

[truefan72]

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/27102008/58/ferrari-threaten-quit-formula.html

Ferrari threaten to quit F1 if standardized engines come into play in 2010

I appreciate their stance and their comments are spot on.

But the Italian firm said it had "major reservations" over any proposals that would lead to teams using the same engines: "it would deprive Formula One of its whole reason for existing, which is based on competition and technological development."

This move by Ferrari is to be applauded. If Max and the FIA continue to go down this stupid path, that breakaway series will come into fruition with Ferrari joining the other manufactures. They realize as well that competing against the likes of McLaren, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Renault, etc in an advanced series with individual engines and spurred by reasonable development is more important to them than competing in a hollow series.

I think that Max Mosley and his FIA cronies might have overplayed their hand with this standardized engine nonsense. The backlash is only beginning and will continue more so over the winter break.

MM and bernie need to leave F1 for the good of the sport.

Once again, hats off to Ferrari for taking a bold stance in trying to ensure that F1 remains the pinnacle of auto racing. :up:

[Allyc85]

Im not a fan of Ferrari at all, but im glad someone has taken this stance. I just hope the others follow soon and they come up with some better ideas for cost reduction.

[truefan72]

oh and another thing from thant article.

whenever Bernie talks about cost saving moves and the need to save millions, I laugh. It is the height of Hypocrisy to espouse cost savings while at the same time holding cities and venues hostage until they pay him the kings ransom for the GP, along with the other exorbitant fees latched on left and right for everything for world feeds, paddock clubs, sponsorship, and related fees. as well as the stupid FIA's superlicense license hikes.

Bernies should just keep his mouth shut when it comes to fiscal conservatism in F1. For he's solely responsible for the astronomical costs of everything in F1 except for team expenditures.

[truefan72]

Im not a fan of Ferrari at all, but im glad someone has taken this stance. I just hope the others follow soon and they come up with some better ideas for cost reduction.

Neither am I, but one has to commend them on their stance.
You know that the FIA. Bernie and MM have jumped the shark when Ferrari denounce their moves and threaten to leave the sport.

[woody2goody]

Well done to Ferrari. I mean isn't the point of the engine freeze to cut costs. The racing hasn't been devalued by it.

Bernie should shut up regarding money unless he spends some of it on improving existing tracks and not going to all these new ones.

[Easy Drifter]

According to TSN Canada Toyota are following Ferrari's lead.

[ShiftingGears]

Good on 'em.

[ioan]

Bernies should just keep his mouth shut when it comes to fiscal conservatism in F1. For he's solely responsible for the astronomical costs of everything in F1 except for team expenditures.

That's what I've been saying for years! He needs to go or the others players will leave him alone.

[AndyRAC]

Im not a fan of Ferrari at all, but im glad someone has taken this stance. I just hope the others follow soon and they come up with some better ideas for cost reduction.


I'm in a similar boat, standard engines, NOOOOOOOOOO!!! Not at any cost!! Who would make them? Too many questions!!!

Bernie should stay out of the decision making, rule making process. His job is to promote the sport, not run it. The FIA/Manufacturers should decide what happens, then Bernie can get involved. Well, that's how I think it should work.

[V12]

Well done Ferrari, and Toyota for that matter, for standing up to Max and Bernie on this.

If you standardise the engine and gearbox, hey you might as well standardise the suspension, the chassis, and so on, till everyone is in the same car, and to me F1 has always been about not just who is the best driver, but who can build the best car. You need both aspects.

I just hope Ferrari and Toyota have the balls to stick to their guns, and not be drawn back in "because its F1". Max and Bernie treat F1 as nothing more than a brand these days, thinking that just because something is called "F1" it will continue to be the most followed motor sport on the planet however they butcher it.

Well you can call a big steaming piece of dog crap any name you want but it's still a piece of crap at the end of the day. Which is what F1 will become if Max and Bernie get their way.

If this whole thing causes the standard engine to be quietly dropped, I think I'll have two new favourite teams to cheer on. If not, then I'll be "quitting" F1 along with them.

[V12]

Bernie should stay out of the decision making, rule making process. His job is to promote the sport, not run it. The FIA/Manufacturers should decide what happens, then Bernie can get involved. Well, that's how I think it should work.

Funny enough...this is how it was MEANT to work when the Concorde Agreement "peace deal" was made in the early 1980s. The deal was FISA (now FIA) makes the rules, and FOCA (i.e. Bernie) manage the commercial side. Unfortunately when Bernie's buddy Max got voted in as FIA president the lines began to get blurred...

[christophulus]

Great news that Ferrari and Toyota are making a stand on this stupid idea, although I don't honestly believe the FIA actually intend to make the one engine supplier a reality. It's certainly a wake up call for the teams but it could also turn around and bite Max and Bernie - and about time too!

[truefan72]

good for Toyota too.


Let's hear from the others please!

[ioan]

Great news that Ferrari and Toyota are making a stand on this stupid idea...

I'm expecting the others to do the same.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't see Max wanting to buck Ferrari on this one - he will cave in.

[Sleeper]

I'm expecting the others to do the same.
I've already read a quote in last weeks Autosport from Nick Fry that says basically the same thing.

Anyone know if BMW and/or Mercedes have said anything on this?

[yodasarmpit]

Good to see one of the big players make a stand on this one.

[winer]

I don't see Max wanting to buck Ferrari on this one - he will cave in.

My feeling is that Mosley is obstinate enough, and stubborn enough that he will continue with his plan, at least until some teams actually withdraw. He may think that after all the publicity this past summer, and the efforts to remove him, that he has something to prove.

[woody2goody]

The sad thing in my opinion is that without Ferrari opposing this it probably would have gone ahead (heck, it may still do so). With al due respect to Toyota, if the decision is reversed it will have nothing to do with their complaints.

The FIA don't really give a crap about other team's opinions.

Still well done to Ferrari and Toyota for in a sense putting their necks on the line.

[wmcot]

Great news that Ferrari and Toyota are making a stand on this stupid idea, although I don't honestly believe the FIA actually intend to make the one engine supplier a reality. It's certainly a wake up call for the teams but it could also turn around and bite Max and Bernie - and about time too!

Looks like Bernie has finally started the dominoes tumbling! I see no point in watching F1GP! F1 would become an open-wheeled version of NASCAR.

[pino]

I had no doubt about Ferrari position about a standard engine :crazy: after all Montezemolo was/is an Enzo Ferrari choice ;) Let's hope Luca will fight this stupid idea until Bernie gives up :D

[F1boat]

I had no doubt about Ferrari position about a standard engine :crazy: after all Montezemolo was/is an Enzo Ferrari choice ;) Let's hope Luca will fight this stupid idea until Bernie gives up :D

Well said. If Bernard and Max continue with their idiotic plans, well - there are many good racing series in the world.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I need reacing, not spending match between car making giants.

Bring back privateers and Cosworth engine!

[Knock-on]

I fully expected this and applaud the decision from Ferrari and Toyota.

The rest of FOTA manufacturers will do the same as they are united on this point and have publicly stated that none of the current teams will enter the tender.

For the people thinking that teams will submit to the complete dumbing down of F1, wake up and smell the coffee.

[Ghostwalker]

I've already read a quote in last weeks Autosport from Nick Fry that says basically the same thing.

Anyone know if BMW and/or Mercedes have said anything on this?

according to an article in Aftonbladet (http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/motorsport/article3640585.ab), McLarens President Martin Whitmarsh says that many car manufacturers will quite F1 if FIA continues with the suggestion of one engine maker.

BMW's team boss says: "a standard engine is not intresting for BMW, if we are to compete in F1 it is with a BMW engine."

Toyota's John Howett says to British autosport that "we had planned to stay to 2012 but we dont want a standard engine and i think that many manufactures will leave if there will be a standard engine."

The article also claims that FOTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_Teams_Association) is against the suggestion.

[Robinho]

Fair play to Ferrari, in recent history the FIA have managed to squeeze a lot through as they've been able to get Ferrari's suppport and that has been enough to get the others to tow the line, now for the first time in a long time, ALL the teams are aligning against Max and Bernie, not just on this subject, but others as well, i can see the power slowly shifting. all the other manufacturers have said something about their dispelasure about teh spec engine, but now Ferrari are threatening to jack as well, the whole arguement has way more weight. Bernie may end up with all the tracks, but he'll only have GP2 or FPA to run on them.

if Bernie wants to "save" the teams money he could give them a much larger slice of the commercial revenues, which would mean they'd have to raise much less to run a team - if FOTA realy want this will be exactly what happens, this is by far the closest to a break away series we've been, regardless of the blustering from the last couple of years

[Roamy]

Here we have the bafoons screwing with the show yet again. F1 cannot afford to lose Ferrari and Toyota would be a big dent as well. Instead of getting together with the team owners Bernterd and whippy boy just start talking out of their asses. But then I have never understood why the teams that make of F1 allow these two to make such huge profits.

[Tazio]

If Max ignores Ferrari in this matter, I think that Luca D' should have a couple guys from Palermo named Luigi give him some advice in this arena!
Gently of course! ;)

[Easy Drifter]

Trouble is Mad Max might enjoy it! :rolleyes:

[gloomyDAY]

Max has taken Ferrari's threat quite lightly:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71797

[V12]

Max is seemingly more stubborn by the day? I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but does Max have some sort of vested interest in F1's collapse? :s

[Tazio]

Trouble is Mad Max might enjoy it! :rolleyes: These guys don't (roll) play like girls!
Ask Jimmy Hoffa!
Oh yea' you can't! :dozey:
Or can you? :eek:

[Robinho]

i understand that the FIA say there are 3 options, but to have opened the standard engine to tender is ridculous if only a tool to get FOTA to agree to a less severe option - if i was someone interested in the tender i'd be all over the FIA to recoup any costs incurrecd in preparing even introductory information if it becomes clear that the FIA have no real intention of going down that route, as i suspect is the case - you don't open up tenders as a bargaining tool or to test the water, what about the guys who are in all likelihood quite interested in being the sole engine suppliers from outside F1.

fcuking idiots intent on keeping their own power and income stream and damn the sport

[gloomyDAY]

The three options:

1) standard engine (joke)

2) an engine from a single supplier (A1GP)

3) supply of customer power units to independent teams for less than 5 million Euros per season (LOL)

[Bagwan]

The single supplier option was just stupid , but very smart in a way , as he now has them talking real numbers for customer units .
$5million is just the starting number , and negotiations are moving towards $10million , where I suspect they were heading anyway .

Clever , clever , Max , because now you may have manufacturers holding back on the big money into the engines , for it now will be a standard price to the independent team , especially if it must be proven current spec .

It is all down to the numbers now .

[Easy Drifter]

I ask Jimmy questions all the time.

He just never speaks for some reason! :D

[ioan]

3) supply of customer power units to independent teams for less than 5 million Euros per season (LOL)

This one is doable. Next season they will need 2x6 engines per team to go racing.
Add another 6 engines for testing. It means 18 engines for 5.000.000 Euros, that's about 280.000 Euros to manufacture an engine, highly possible IMO.

[ioan]

The single supplier option was just stupid , but very smart in a way , as he now has them talking real numbers for customer units .
$5million is just the starting number , and negotiations are moving towards $10million , where I suspect they were heading anyway .

Clever , clever , Max , because now you may have manufacturers holding back on the big money into the engines , for it now will be a standard price to the independent team , especially if it must be proven current spec .

It is all down to the numbers now .

Agree.

[gshevlin]

While I am sympathetic to the idea that there should be a variety of powerplants in F1, I regard the threat from Ferrari and Toyota as a bluff.
The FIA should call the bluff. The manufacturers have shown in the past that they are quite capable of leaving F1 as quickly as they have entered, once they either achieve their objectives or decide that they cannot win. Renault, BMW and Honda have all jumped into and out of F1 several times over the last 30 years.
If several manufacturers quit, F1 will still survive. If a standard engine is available for a reasonable price, new teams will appear to take up the grid spots. The main reason that the grid is static is that the base costs are still way too high, and the privateer teams are in danger of disappearing. This situation cannot be allowed to continue, or Red Bull, Force India and Williams could all disappear in the next 2-3 years. Even multi-billionaires won't continue to fund teams from their own pockets for very long. Williams is in grave danger of disappearing, since they do not have a multi-billionaire writing cheques.
Before we all forget too easily...there was a lengthy period of time in the 70's when F1 was almost a single-engine formula; apart from Ferrari, every team used the Ford-Cosworth V8 as its powerplant. That was probably not a "standard engine" as currently proposed by the FIA, but it was pretty damn close, and the racing was very close also. Yep, it was a long time ago, but let us not all fall around swooning in horror at the prospect of a standard engine. F1 is only partly about engine building. Most of the column inches are generated by human drama.

[ioan]

If several manufacturers quit, F1 will still survive.

Yeah, sure with Flintstone power plants! :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

While I am sympathetic to the idea that there should be a variety of powerplants in F1, I regard the threat from Ferrari and Toyota as a bluff.
The FIA should call the bluff. The manufacturers have shown in the past that they are quite capable of leaving F1 as quickly as they have entered, once they either achieve their objectives or decide that they cannot win. Renault, BMW and Honda have all jumped into and out of F1 several times over the last 30 years.
If several manufacturers quit, F1 will still survive. If a standard engine is available for a reasonable price, new teams will appear to take up the grid spots. The main reason that the grid is static is that the base costs are still way too high, and the privateer teams are in danger of disappearing. This situation cannot be allowed to continue, or Red Bull, Force India and Williams could all disappear in the next 2-3 years. Even multi-billionaires won't continue to fund teams from their own pockets for very long. Williams is in grave danger of disappearing, since they do not have a multi-billionaire writing cheques.
Before we all forget too easily...there was a lengthy period of time in the 70's when F1 was almost a single-engine formula; apart from Ferrari, every team used the Ford-Cosworth V8 as its powerplant. That was probably not a "standard engine" as currently proposed by the FIA, but it was pretty damn close, and the racing was very close also. Yep, it was a long time ago, but let us not all fall around swooning in horror at the prospect of a standard engine. F1 is only partly about engine building. Most of the column inches are generated by human drama.

It seems there are two reasons to suggest one engine .
One , to generate column inches , and dramatic reaction from teams , who come out feeling they flexed thier muscles , defeating the idea .
And , two , to simply get them talking about how much for customer engines , rather than whether they are a good idea or not .

I suspect , that Max perhaps forsaw the teams threatening to quit , but used it to humbly offer the real alternative .

He offers up crazy ideas like a fox .

You'd think they'd figure that out some day .

[Miatanut]

While I am sympathetic to the idea that there should be a variety of powerplants in F1, I regard the threat from Ferrari and Toyota as a bluff.
The FIA should call the bluff. The manufacturers have shown in the past that they are quite capable of leaving F1 as quickly as they have entered, once they either achieve their objectives or decide that they cannot win. Renault, BMW and Honda have all jumped into and out of F1 several times over the last 30 years.
If several manufacturers quit, F1 will still survive. If a standard engine is available for a reasonable price, new teams will appear to take up the grid spots. The main reason that the grid is static is that the base costs are still way too high, and the privateer teams are in danger of disappearing. This situation cannot be allowed to continue, or Red Bull, Force India and Williams could all disappear in the next 2-3 years. Even multi-billionaires won't continue to fund teams from their own pockets for very long. Williams is in grave danger of disappearing, since they do not have a multi-billionaire writing cheques.
Before we all forget too easily...there was a lengthy period of time in the 70's when F1 was almost a single-engine formula; apart from Ferrari, every team used the Ford-Cosworth V8 as its powerplant. That was probably not a "standard engine" as currently proposed by the FIA, but it was pretty damn close, and the racing was very close also. Yep, it was a long time ago, but let us not all fall around swooning in horror at the prospect of a standard engine. F1 is only partly about engine building. Most of the column inches are generated by human drama.
From the first it was announced I knew Ferrari would never go along with it. For Ferrari, everything is secondary to the engine.
They aren't bluffing.

I remember the days of customer engines in F1 quite fondly, but those days are gone. If they want privateers to come back, they need to have separate manufacturer's and constructor's championships, and specify that manufacturers cannot advertise anything but their own make on the car, and privateers cannot advertise any manufacturer on their cars. Messing with the revenue streams is about the only thing that could produce results. Otherwise, teams will spend hundreds of million$, because they can.

[V12]

The Cosworth DFV era was TOTALLY different.

It became the de facto "standard engine" because, put simply, it was the best. It won races and performed the best. Teams chose it because it was the most competitive alternative available to them. It became the weapon of choice and all power to them for that. They deserved it.

There's a world of difference between achieving dominance that way (much like Dallara in F3, for a contemporary example), and winning a "tender" *shudders*.

And two more things. One, the Cosworth was able to be modified and prepared differently by various engine builders and tuners (which would not be an option with the proposed tolerances to be specified by the "tenderer" *shudders*).

And two, you had Ferrari (and BRM while they lasted, and then Renault and others with their turbo) supplying a bit of variety. Not only variety of make, but also a different number of cylinders, remember that?!

Just had a look at the FIA website, looks like "Make Cars Green" (by painting tyre grooves with green stripes apparently!) and "EveryRace" are their priorities these days. Makes me sick.

[pino]

Before we all forget too easily...there was a lengthy period of time in the 70's when F1 was almost a single-engine formula; apart from Ferrari, every team used the Ford-Cosworth V8 as its powerplant...

Apart from Ferrari as you said, so what makes you think Ferrari will now accept to compete using another engine. At Ferrari they have always been very proud of their engines and as Miatanut posted everything is secondary to them so this isn't a bluff and FIA should take this threat seriously...

[Ranger]

Ferrari's history, particularly under the old man himself, was littered with quit threats and disagreements with sanctioning and sporting authorities.

The FIA knows that F1 can't lose Ferrari, as do the team themself. But this is in the context that Ferrari never actually followed up on any of those threats in its most turbulent era.

There isn't anything to suggest they will do that now, anymore than they did then.

[F1boat]

But Mallen, we have never had such stupid suggestion before!

[pino]

There isn't anything to suggest they will do that now, anymore than they did then.

But none touched their engine...until now ;)

[Ranger]

But Mallen, we have never had such stupid suggestion before!
Incorrect. We haven't had such a stupid suggestion that detrimentally affects Ferrari before. ;) (or at least in a long time).

There have been many stupid interventions, be it rules, disqualifications, sanctions, suggestions of rules, etc, by sanctioning bodies in the sport's history, some of which don't even make sense now. See: Lotus 88.

Nonetheless I agree 100% with Ferrari's course of action, even though the FIA is at a crossroads about the sustainability of F1...if indeed the problem is as big as they are making it out to be, along with it's supposed need to be seen as environmentally friendly.

[ioan]

It seems there are two reasons to suggest one engine .
One , to generate column inches , and dramatic reaction from teams , who come out feeling they flexed thier muscles , defeating the idea .
And , two , to simply get them talking about how much for customer engines , rather than whether they are a good idea or not .

I suspect , that Max perhaps forsaw the teams threatening to quit , but used it to humbly offer the real alternative .

He offers up crazy ideas like a fox .

You'd think they'd figure that out some day .

Maybe the teams are just willing to play the game Max started, for various reasons.

[ioan]

Ferrari's history, particularly under the old man himself, was littered with quit threats and disagreements with sanctioning and sporting authorities.

The FIA knows that F1 can't lose Ferrari, as do the team themself. But this is in the context that Ferrari never actually followed up on any of those threats in its most turbulent era.

There isn't anything to suggest they will do that now, anymore than they did then.

There's always a first time!
Oh, and never say never. ;)

[Ranger]

There's always a first time!
Oh, and never say never. ;)

Having browsed on Google a bit, I found something quite interesting!

In opposition to new 3-litre restrictions of the World Sportscar Championship in 1968, Ferrari quit the competition for that year. They did however return.

[Knock-on]

I'm pretty sure that we will end up with teams supplying customer engines for 10m Euro per year and this was always going to be the outcome.

FOTA were moving quite nicely towards this option prior to the meeting with Max. However, he demonstrates crass beligerance by issueing the tender before this option has been resolved or even discussed.

Then we have (quite justifiably) uproar from the teams and Max shugs it off. In particular, he practically accuses Ferrari of lying to their board with this statement in response to the Ferrari press release:

"It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed."

This man rules by threat, intimidation and manipulation. How many times can he cry wolf like this, dismiss concerns from the team, rule the FIA like a Dictator and continue to get away with it?

[Valve Bounce]

Apart from Ferrari as you said, so what makes you think Ferrari will now accept to compete using another engine. At Ferrari they have always been very proud of their engines and as Miatanut posted everything is secondary to them so this isn't a bluff and FIA should take this threat seriously...

A Ferrari with some other engine will not be a Ferrari. I think this just about sums it up.

[Valve Bounce]

This man rules by threat, intimidation and manipulation. How many times can he cry wolf like this, dismiss concerns from the team, rule the FIA like a Dictator and continue to get away with it?

How quickly you forget: Max holds the whip!!

[ioan]

A Ferrari with some other engine will not be a Ferrari. I think this just about sums it up.

Paraphrasing Enzo Ferrari: "Aerodynamics are for those who can't build strong engines." Well, something along these lines. :)

[ioan]

Then we have (quite justifiably) uproar from the teams and Max shugs it off. In particular, he practically accuses Ferrari of lying to their board with this statement in response to the Ferrari press release:

"It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed."

The best part of it being that he discussed the matters directly with di Montezemolo, the Ferrari boss! :D

[Robinho]

i just hope Porsche (or someone) prepares a fantastic engine tender, to all the specifications of the FIA's paper, keep very accurate and auditable records on everyones time spent on it and then sue the ass off them when the FIA deide to not invoke the single engine rule and are forced to admit in court that it was nothing more than a bargaining tool and they never had any intention of carrying out their poorly thought out plans

[Knock-on]

The best part of it being that he discussed the matters directly with di Montezemolo, the Ferrari boss! :D

I think Max might be a bit mixed up as to what board and confusing the Ferrari board with the Fiat one :D

[ioan]

i just hope Porsche (or someone) prepares a fantastic engine tender, to all the specifications of the FIA's paper, keep very accurate and auditable records on everyones time spent on it and then sue the ass off them when the FIA deide to not invoke the single engine rule and are forced to admit in court that it was nothing more than a bargaining tool and they never had any intention of carrying out their poorly thought out plans

I think I read somewhere that the engine provider will not have the rights to have their name put on the cars or linked in any way with the F1 cars. In these conditions I doubt that Porsche or any other manufacturer would take part in the tender.

[Knock-on]

They might be a "Grey" engine but everyone will know who made them.

You can just imagine the media...

"Porsche powered Ferrari wins Championship!!"

[ioan]

They might be a "Grey" engine but everyone will know who made them.

You can just imagine the media...

"Porsche powered Ferrari wins Championship!!"

Yeah especially as the teams can build it themselves:
"Ferrari wins championship powered by a Ferrari built and porsche designed engine"

I don't think that any serious engine manufacturer wants something like this.

[AndyRAC]

Utterly ridiculous, it's tragi-comical.
I was going to say that you couldn't make it up, but you could, we are talking about the F1A & Max after all.

[NickFalzone]

Looks like Bernie has finally started the dominoes tumbling! I see no point in watching F1GP! F1 would become an open-wheeled version of NASCAR.

NASCAR is not a reasonable comparison, but it does have 4 different manufacturers with Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Toyota. Despite problems in Detroit they're all still hanging in there. I'd still rather watch a spec F1 than 10 manu NASCAR, particularly if it's the fastest spec around.

[truefan72]

A Ferrari with some other engine will not be a Ferrari. I think this just about sums it up.
yup

[Valve Bounce]

They might be a "Grey" engine but everyone will know who made them.

You can just imagine the media...

"Porsche powered Ferrari wins Championship!!"

................or KIA :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Max has taken Ferrari's threat quite lightly:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71797
A familiar Max type stance - "It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed." :laugh: How so Max? The FIA has already opened up the tender process for the spec engine, and yet you say "It is now for the manufacturers to agree one of the three FIA options or themselves produce concrete proposals to reduce costs to a sustainable level."

A standard engine is one option...or is it the option and all these meetings - in particular a very positive and productive FIA/FOTA meeting not so long ago - are in fact a total waste of time. Max will get the F1 Max wants regardless :rolleyes:

Will someone please save F1 from Max Mosley. Credit to Ferrari for making the first move.

[Valve Bounce]

Will someone please save F1 from Max Mosley. Credit to Ferrari for making the first move.

He needs a good smack on his bottom. A whipping more likely.

[pino]

Will someone please save F1 from Max Mosley...

I know how to save F1, replace Mosley with Todt :up: :D

[Big Ben]

I know how to save F1, replace Mosley with Todt :up: :D

oh boy...

or put Todt back in charge at Ferrari and we will have the 100% consesus in everything like in the good old times

[Bagwan]

Imagine you own a hockey team .

You lead the championship or are near the top .

It is recognized that your team has the best sticks .
You are proud of those sticks , because you make them .
They are expensive to make , and nobody else can afford them .

The league says you have to make sticks available
, for a reasonable amount of money , to the other teams .
You say no , and the league says they will go to a standard stick .

You threaten to pull your team . Your stick makes you proud , no matter what player holds it .

The league says they will negotiate over the price of the stick supply , and rather than see all those sticks banned and unused , you see that a negotiation was the only plan to begin with in the situation .


To relate , somehow , the real intentions of those in competition with each other is difficult , when the rules of conduct are being discussed .
I recall a couple of years ago , when we were talking about how to reduce the distance at which drivers could follow each other without losing significant downforce , one of our members(wish I could remember who) came on and mentioned that one of the most important tasks for the aero guys was to make sure the exitting air behind the car was as dirty as was possible , to make it hard for following drivers to pass .
They complained about a problem at the same time as devoting a huge amount of research into making it worse .

Anyway , you all will have to sell sticks for the same amount next year , and it won't make much sense to sell them below cost , so you'll have to make sure you get more efficient in your stick-making .

Maybe wood wasn't such a bad material to use after all . Carbon fibre is too expensive .


There never really was a plan to standardize those sticks .
The league just needed you to realize they were wrecking the game because they were too expensive .

[Knock-on]

But sooner or later, you know they will toss their sticks aside in favour of a all in fist fight.

Only difference is that this time, it's the teams united against the umpire :D

[Tazio]

Imagine you own a hockey team .

You lead the championship or are near the top .

It is recognized that your team has the best sticks .
You are proud of those sticks , because you make them .
They are expensive to make , and nobody else can afford them .

The league says you have to make sticks available
, for a reasonable amount of money , to the other teams .
You say no , and the league says they will go to a standard stick .

You threaten to pull your team . Your stick makes you proud , no matter what player holds it .

The league says they will negotiate over the price of the stick supply , and rather than see all those sticks banned and unused , you see that a negotiation was the only plan to begin with in the situation .


To relate , somehow , the real intentions of those in competition with each other is difficult , when the rules of conduct are being discussed .
I recall a couple of years ago , when we were talking about how to reduce the distance at which drivers could follow each other without losing significant downforce , one of our members(wish I could remember who) came on and mentioned that one of the most important tasks for the aero guys was to make sure the exitting air behind the car was as dirty as was possible , to make it hard for following drivers to pass .
They complained about a problem at the same time as devoting a huge amount of research into making it worse .

Anyway , you all will have to sell sticks for the same amount next year , and it won't make much sense to sell them below cost , so you'll have to make sure you get more efficient in your stick-making .

Maybe wood wasn't such a bad material to use after all . Carbon fibre is too expensive .


There never really was a plan to standardize those sticks .
The league just needed you to realize they were wrecking the game because they were too expensive .I see your point! Although the sticks should never be compromised at the butt end, as this might reduce their effectiveness in separating players from their front! teeth! ; :dozey:
Comparing other professional sports to f1 is a dodgy endeavor. Let me espouse. I coined an expression about 25-30 years ago “Football (American) is a Jive sport," meaning that it is an inequitable sport. It has only gotten worse since then. Special rules requiring gentler treatment of certain players (Quaterbacks) who are essentially no different than any other player that lines up behind the line of scrimmage. Why? They are money players Very important to the financial solvency of the franchise. Any Brit that saw the abortion of a game between San Diego, and New Orleans at Wembly must have been scratching their heads afterwards saying "What the F*** was that"? The sport along with NASCAR has become by far The U.S.'s most popular! This is so because it is gladiatorial and sadly reflects the mentality of your average American sports fan. (See NASCAR) Like all sports it is fun to play, yet extremely perverted at the professional level. The FIA have nothing over "The Office of the Commissioner” in this arena. Baseball a sport I participated in until I was well into my forties was thoroughly perverted by the introduction of the "Designated Hitter" for reasons only those who understand the underlying dynamics of the sport can understand. I will not get into that now.
To my European friends I say be happy you have Football (American Soccer) with all it shenanigans and theatrics it is one of the few pure sports left in the uh..... Wait a second.
How many of the last four or five World Cups have been decided by the Penalty Kick Shoot-Out?
I hope you like Rugby, or Basketball!
What were we discussing again?
Oh yes Hockey. Not a good sport to compare to F1. It's too pure.
Well, as the French say, "C'est la Vie"
Ciao

[Bagwan]

I see your point! Although the sticks should never be compromised at the butt end, as this might reduce their effectiveness in separating players from their front! teeth! ; :dozey:
Comparing other professional sports to f1 is a dodgy endeavor. Let me espouse. I coined an expression about 25-30 years ago “Football (American) is a Jive sport," meaning that it is an inequitable sport. It has only gotten worse since then. Special rules requiring gentler treatment of certain players (Quaterbacks) who are essentially no different than any other player that lines up behind the line of scrimmage. Why? They are money players Very important to the financial solvency of the franchise. Any Brit that saw the abortion of a game between San Diego, and New Orleans at Wembly must have been scratching their heads afterwards saying "What the F*** was that"? The sport along with NASCAR has become by far The U.S.'s most popular! This is so because it is gladiatorial and sadly reflects the mentality of your average American sports fan. (See NASCAR) Like all sports it is fun to play, yet extremely perverted at the professional level. The FIA have nothing over "The Office of the Commissioner” in this arena. Baseball a sport I participated in until I was well into my forties was thoroughly perverted by the introduction of the "Designated Hitter" for reasons only those who understand the underlying dynamics of the sport can understand. I will not get into that now.
To my European friends I say be happy you have Football (American Soccer) with all it shenanigans and theatrics it is one of the few pure sports left in the uh..... Wait a second.
How many of the last four or five World Cups have been decided by the Penalty Kick Shoot-Out?
I hope you like Rugby, or Basketball!
What were we discussing again?
Oh yes Hockey. Not a good sport to compare to F1. It's too pure.
Well, as the French say, "C'est la Vie"
Ciao

Damn , Taz, you got hung up on the word "hockey" .

Insert "Floogleball" , or "Floogleball racket" wherever you see "Hockey" or "Stick" in that post .

It's not as much a national sport but more a sport looking for a nation .

It'll never find one , though , unless they come to an agreement overthe price of those Floogleball rackets . They are just too expensive , and with them , the league will simply not survive .

And , I love Floogleball .
Doesn't everyone ?

[Tazio]

Damn , Taz, you got hung up on the word "hockey" .

Insert "Floogleball" , or "Floogleball racket" wherever you see "Hockey" or "Stick" in that post .

It's not as much a national sport but more a sport looking for a nation .

It'll never find one , though , unless they come to an agreement overthe price of those Floogleball rackets . They are just too expensive , and with them , the league will simply not survive .

And , I love Floogleball .
Doesn't everyone ?Bags'!!!!!!!!! I don't think you got the crux of my post!
I was suggesting that hockey may be one of the few "Major Sports" whose competition has NOT been diminished by "Corporate Interests" :dozey:
I suggest you drop back ten and punt! (Metaphorically speaking of course)
Re read the post and get back to me! I don't believe its allegory is that well disguised ;)

[Bagwan]

Bags'!!!!!!!!! I don't think you got the crux of my post!
I was suggesting that hockey may be one of the few "Major Sports" whose competition has NOT been diminished by "Corporate Interests" :dozey:
I suggest you drop back ten and punt! (Metaphorically speaking of course)
Re read the post and get back to me! I don't believe its allegory is that well disguised ;)

Who said anything about hockey ?
I am talking Floogleball here .

My point was to say that Bernie wasn't really serious about a single engine , even though he put out a tender or said he would .

He got them talking about making engines for independent teams both mandatory , and an affordable option , thus , essentially capping the costs spent on development .

It was never about a single Floogleball racket at all .



I do get your point about hockey being pure . OK ?
The only hockey is Leaf hockey . It ends early spring in time for golf , like all good winter sports .

I get it . I am Canadian , fer crissakes .


Who you toutin' in the Floogleball league ?

[Tazio]

Who said anything about hockey ?
I am talking Floogleball here .



Who you toutin' in the Floogleball league ?
That's easy! In fact the competition begins and ends( with no competition) in Uranus! :eek:
Well that's what I heard :p :
:laugh:

[ShiftingGears]

I know how to save F1, replace Mosley with Todt :up: :D

He'd be a good choice as FIA president, seeing as he's worked in sportscars, rally and F1.


Hopefully he can fulfill the FIA presidents job of assisting/directing the governance of all those racing series, instead of focusing purely on governing F1, and still screwing it up.