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RalfsLastFan
24th October 2008, 00:55
Haven't posted here in years and years...and hadn't even realized that a lot of the old stuff from when I _was_ active here has vanished. Unfortunately, that included some stuff I've been looking for lately.

But that's alright, it's time for a new generation of users to learn about the sports shady side....not necessarily the _bad_ stuff, but the naughty stuff. The little tricks and tactics teams have used over the edge to get an edge. Not necessarily breaking the rules...sometimes not even _bending_ the rules. As I heard once on TV, for many drivers (and for even more engineers!) the most important part of the rulebook was the stuff that WASN'T written down.

The idea of this thread is to be a place to share those stories in a spirit of fun. It's all in the past now...let's enjoy the audaciousness of those intrepid engineers.

Two stories in particular that I'm looking for are from the 90's era: McLaren's 'differential brakes' and Ferrari's hidden menu in their ECU. I know they happened and I know I heard about them here...but I can't remember the details. Anyone help me out?

Valve Bounce
24th October 2008, 02:04
Haven't posted here in years and years...and hadn't even realized that a lot of the old stuff from when I _was_ active here has vanished.

I resent that. I thoroughly resent that. I don't deny it, but I resent it. And I haven't vanished at all - I've been lurking here all the time. :(

Easy Drifter
24th October 2008, 02:54
Interesting interpreations of the rules prevail!
Way back when in F Atlantic sports car noses were the rule. However, the area between the main body and the wheels had to be lower than the main structure. That area often, especially on the Chevron B29 (and probably the B25 and 27) was critical. Every experienced FA team ran a "kick up" in that area. You could run one legally but it couldn't be very high. The B29 was extremely sensitive to changes in this 'kicker'. Every team who knew the trick ran a slotted aluminum kicker. Normally it was too high to be legal but every team had some one with a nylon or rubber hammer ready to hit it as the car left the track. Then it was legal.
Of course all the fast teams were also trying to see just how high you were running it although who the heck knew the rest of the settings!
I can relate lots of other tricks but that would be a book.
The more rules there are the easier it is to find a loophole.

ShiftingGears
24th October 2008, 11:10
Haven't posted here in years and years...and hadn't even realized that a lot of the old stuff from when I _was_ active here has vanished. Unfortunately, that included some stuff I've been looking for lately.

But that's alright, it's time for a new generation of users to learn about the sports shady side....not necessarily the _bad_ stuff, but the naughty stuff. The little tricks and tactics teams have used over the edge to get an edge. Not necessarily breaking the rules...sometimes not even _bending_ the rules. As I heard once on TV, for many drivers (and for even more engineers!) the most important part of the rulebook was the stuff that WASN'T written down.

The idea of this thread is to be a place to share those stories in a spirit of fun. It's all in the past now...let's enjoy the audaciousness of those intrepid engineers.

Two stories in particular that I'm looking for are from the 90's era: McLaren's 'differential brakes' and Ferrari's hidden menu in their ECU. I know they happened and I know I heard about them here...but I can't remember the details. Anyone help me out?

It was 1998 where McLaren used two brake pedals for "brake steering" essentially helping the car to turn during braking.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/24/banned-mclarens-rear-brake-pedal/

There's a blog with the information. It shouldn't be hard to get more credible sources on it.

RalfsLastFan
25th October 2008, 01:01
I resent that. I thoroughly resent that. I don't deny it, but I resent it. And I haven't vanished at all - I've been lurking here all the time. :(

Whereas I've been entirely and utterly gone. I've poked my head in once per year to look at the Le Mans threads, pretty much. :( That's all I've had time for.

theugsquirrel

Thanks for the link and the year! That's just what I was looking for on that one.

Now, anyone remember Ferrari's secret engine-management menu?

bowers
9th November 2008, 23:16
Whereas I've been entirely and utterly gone. I've poked my head in once per year to look at the Le Mans threads, pretty much. :( That's all I've had time for.

theugsquirrel

Thanks for the link and the year! That's just what I was looking for on that one.

Now, anyone remember Ferrari's secret engine-management menu?


I still think the Brabham Fan Car was one of the most ingenius inventions ever used on an F1 car. It was used in only 1 race, the Swedish GP of 1978 before it was banned with a 100% winning percentage (after Niki Lauda took victory in it).

Basically it was car using ground effects, which were the new things on the block back then. If you unfamiliar with ground effects it's basically the act of creating the underbody as an upside down aircraft wing creating downforce. Later side skirts were added to increase the efficieny of the said design. Now all this low pressure that is created underneath the car was good but not great. Then came along the Brabham engineers and made an elaborate system that used to fan connected via the transmission that would actually suck the car to the track (as it was almost sealed to the road with the side skirts). The idea was tossed around in a CanAm race a few years previously with the same overall idea. Using a fan created a huge amount of vacuum below the car and even sucked the car closer to the track when the car wasn't moving and it was off idle. This was actually considered illegal as it was a movable aerodynamic advice, but it actually heavily contributed to cooling at the same time, which is the argument they used to start the race.

The race saw Mario Andretti have engine problems and also saw a car drop lots of oil onto the track. As other cars skated all over the place, the fan car cruised around, dominating the race. After the race however, it was promptly banned and that was the end of a huge amount of wonderful engineering.

Valve Bounce
10th November 2008, 00:42
Whereas I've been entirely and utterly gone. I've poked my head in once per year to look at the Le Mans threads, pretty much. :( That's all I've had time for.

?

Maybe if you wrote to pino nicely, he might let you change your nick to LewiesLastFan. Then you'd have more reason to come back and shoot the shyte with us. :D

ArrowsFA1
12th November 2008, 10:57
How about the 1976 Italian GP "fuel octane swindle".

Coming to Monza James Hunt (McLaren) was in a title battle with Niki Lauda (Ferrari) and during qualifying the fuel in the McLaren (and Penske) was apparently found to be over an octane limit. As a result Hunt, Mass and Watson lost their Saturday qualifying times, and because of poor weather the day before this meant effectively they had not qualified for the race. Withdrawls meant they scraped onto the back of the grid.

Having initially made good progress through the field Hunt spun off early in the race.

The thing is the octane issue was highly contentious. For one thing IIRC the nationality of the team determined the octane rating of the fuel they could use, something not taken into account by the stewards. Secondly it was later shown that the fuel samples taken were legal at the time they were taken according to the stewards own criteria. It's just the results that were announced differed from the actual readings.

Still, nevermind. Job done as far as hampering Hunt's championship challenge :p

ioan
12th November 2008, 12:41
Two stories in particular that I'm looking for are from the 90's era: McLaren's 'differential brakes' and Ferrari's hidden menu in their ECU. I know they happened and I know I heard about them here...but I can't remember the details. Anyone help me out?

Your memory is getting shabby, there was no hidden menu in Ferrari's ECU!

Now that we cleared that, I'll give you a clue: Benetton.

The Greatest Shenanigans in F1? It all happened last season!

BDunnell
12th November 2008, 14:35
Your memory is getting shabby, there was no hidden menu in Ferrari's ECU!

Now that we cleared that, I'll give you a clue: Benetton.

And even then, there are good explanations as to why this was a lot of fuss over nothing.

12th November 2008, 16:01
Still, nevermind. Job done as far as hampering Hunt's championship challenge :p

Reminds me of a line from a Spike Milligan sketch about BRM.

"In the 1950's, the Italians dominated and took home all the silverware....sometimes before the race had even started"

ioan
12th November 2008, 17:04
And even then, there are good explanations as to why this was a lot of fuss over nothing.

That's right.
What get's on my nerves is when people say "I know they happened", when they are completely wrong.

D-Type
13th November 2008, 19:22
Jean Behra defeating the Ferraris and Maseratis in the 1952 non-championship Reims GP. Did he have a 2.5 litre engine?

The von Frankenberg allegations that Lotus ran 'bent' engines in Formula Junior in 1962.

Hubert Hahne having the German police impound the March transporters in 1970 when his car was not as fast as the works cars.

The 1978 Arrows FA1 bearing a "very close" resemblance to the Shadow DN9

The disqualification of Tyrrell in 1984


Does anybody want more detail about any of these?

14th November 2008, 09:50
The disqualification of Tyrrell in 1984

That was a definite bangs-to-right cheat, as I recall?

Filling the fuel tank with table-tennis balls so that it appeared to be on the 190(?) litre maximum, then hoovering them out after the scrutineers had gone.

ArrowsFA1
14th November 2008, 10:01
That was a definite bangs-to-right cheat, as I recall?

Filling the fuel tank with table-tennis balls so that it appeared to be on the 190(?) litre maximum, then hoovering them out after the scrutineers had gone.
More info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing#1984_Disqualification).

14th November 2008, 10:56
More info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing#1984_Disqualification).

Ah, my memory isn't what it used to be.

Still, showering the pit-lane with lead shot does make Massa's "unsafe" release in Valencia seem pretty tame.

BDunnell
14th November 2008, 10:58
Ah, my memory isn't what it used to be.

Still, showering the pit-lane with lead shot does make Massa's "unsafe" release in Valencia seem pretty tame.

:laugh:

Absolutely!

D-Type
15th November 2008, 22:58
I've never before heard of the lead shot escaping. Tyrrell certainly used the 'need tools to remove' argument.

But the fact remains that Tyrrell were the only team opposing the required unanimous decision on a rule change and their disqualification was, shall we say, suspiciously convenient as it lost them their vote.

Powered by Cosworth
17th November 2008, 12:16
The 2003 Toyota looked a hell of a lot like the 2003 Ferrari if my mind serves me correctly. I used to have a load of photos of a bunch of Toyota mechanics looking very closely at an '03 Ferrari at the end of a pitlane one race, taking a bunch of photos. Something dodgy went on there, didn't they get done for Industrial Espionage?

Ranger
17th November 2008, 12:43
The 2003 Toyota looked a hell of a lot like the 2003 Ferrari if my mind serves me correctly. I used to have a load of photos of a bunch of Toyota mechanics looking very closely at an '03 Ferrari at the end of a pitlane one race, taking a bunch of photos. Something dodgy went on there, didn't they get done for Industrial Espionage?

All Toyota v. Ferrari Industrial Espionage charges were quietly dropped soon after McLaren's $100 million fine was implemented last year.

17th November 2008, 16:41
The 2003 Toyota looked a hell of a lot like the 2003 Ferrari if my mind serves me correctly. I used to have a load of photos of a bunch of Toyota mechanics looking very closely at an '03 Ferrari at the end of a pitlane one race, taking a bunch of photos. Something dodgy went on there, didn't they get done for Industrial Espionage?

"Former Ferrari employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini have been found guilty of industrial espionage by a Modena court in the Toyota spying case.
Iacconi and Santini, who worked for Toyota after their tenure at Maranello, were charged with espionage, including unauthorised access to Ferrari's computers and misappropriation of files. Both men were dismissed from Toyota before the case was made public.
Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport reports that, on Monday, Santini was sentenced to nine months in prison for disclosing trade secrets. Iacconi, meanwhile, got one year and four months for misappropriation of a CD-ROM with data, files and technical drawings received from Santini.
Both men had their sentences suspended and their lawyers announced they will appeal.
Toyota had no comments on the verdict.
"The judgement in Italy does not involve Toyota," said Toyota team president John Howett. "It is probably inappropriate to comment on a judgement in which we are not involved and where the individuals involved have indicated that they will appeal."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58339

Three others, including then team boss Ove Andersson, where charged but later had the charges dropped.

fizzicist
20th November 2008, 12:37
Some of my favourites:

I forget the details, but sometime in the late 60's during the wings on stilts era, Graham Hill (I think) won at Monaco and before the car got to scrutineering, the team posed for a photo around the back of the car.

As the photo was taken a couple of strategically placed knees and a bit of pressure ensured that the wing struts were bent backwards to ensure the wing wasn't too high for the scrutineers checks...

Ferrari once ran water cooled wings as you used to be able to top up fluid levels after the race. Cue about 50kgs of water in the wings, dumped as soon as the car left the pits.

There was a minimum ride height check in the pit lane at some point where the cars had to be able to drive over a block in the pits. Of course with a little help from "Mr Active Suspension", you simply jacked the car right up in the pits and ran it low as soon as you hit the track...

And then there's Schumachers lead helmet during the weigh in....he could barely lift that thing!

D-Type
7th December 2008, 00:18
In 100 Grand Prix greats Alan Henry includes "10 greatest scandals" and describes:

1. Hunt's 1976 British GP disqualification
2. The water bottle row (1982) - merely part of the FISA/FOCA "War"
3. The Shadow/Arrows affair (1978)
4. The death of Patrick Depailler (1980) - pre-race testing and the catch fencing handn't been erected)
5. The Hahne / March affair of 1970
6. Tyrrell's exclusion from the 1984 season
7. Patrese's kangaroo court (1978)
8. Lauda's breach with Ferrari (1977)
9. Philip Streiff's career ending accident
10. Suzuka 1989 and 1990

I can elaborateif anybody is unfamiliar with any of the stories

BDunnell
7th December 2008, 01:47
5. The Hahne / March affair of 1970

I would be interested to know your assessment of this, D-Type. I'm aware that Hahne took legal action against March, alleging that they had sold him a duff car, but then retired when Ronnie Peterson showed that it was OK — but what do you reckon?

markabilly
7th December 2008, 14:35
I still think the Brabham Fan Car was one of the most ingenius inventions ever used on an F1 car. It was used in only 1 race, the Swedish GP of 1978 before it was banned with a 100% winning percentage (after Niki Lauda took victory in it).

Basically it was car using ground effects, which were the new things on the block back then. If you unfamiliar with ground effects it's basically the act of creating the underbody as an upside down aircraft wing creating downforce. Later side skirts were added to increase the efficieny of the said design. Now all this low pressure that is created underneath the car was good but not great. Then came along the Brabham engineers and made an elaborate system that used to fan connected via the transmission that would actually suck the car to the track (as it was almost sealed to the road with the side skirts). The idea was tossed around in a CanAm race a few years previously with the same overall idea. Using a fan created a huge amount of vacuum below the car and even sucked the car closer to the track when the car wasn't moving and it was off idle. This was actually considered illegal as it was a movable aerodynamic advice, but it actually heavily contributed to cooling at the same time, which is the argument they used to start the race.

The race saw Mario Andretti have engine problems and also saw a car drop lots of oil onto the track. As other cars skated all over the place, the fan car cruised around, dominating the race. After the race however, it was promptly banned and that was the end of a huge amount of wonderful engineering.


Idea originated with a west texas driver-racer named Hall, who was the first to make meaningful use of wings and other areo dymanic aids (Chaparral 2J) along with data acquisition and other stuff.

Interesting is in the early days, the wing in back was used to keep the tires glued to the ground directly, but the front was desigend with an air dam, to release or reduce down force, so as to keep the front suspension from compressing at high speed, as too much air pressure in front was leading to problems. One problem was that sometimes there were issues with the front being too light. So the air dam became moveable as well to work in conjunction with the wing.
Radiators were also moved to be along side the driver (something that was also challenged as being illegal or made illegal)

If anyone turned the design of cars into an aero science, it was Jim Hall. Probably his basic ideas remain the fundemental concept for f1 cars, even today

The 2J was such an overwhelming succcess with its areo skirts and motor driven fan (as in two seconds plus lap times over any other cars), that Mac suceeded in banning it even though they dominanted the sport.

The only reason his wing monsters did not dominant all the 1967 and 1968 races, was due to the auto tranmission required to permit operation of the wing, as it was always breaking due to the stress as well as robbing HP from the drivetrain....if they had just had a strong enough clutch and drive train with a driver willing to do it, they could just have had cluthchless shifting...


Trivia question: who was the most famous innovator car desginer to drive a racer in F1, yet his F1 participation remains a relatively unkown fact?
Hall.

markabilly
7th December 2008, 14:41
And then there's Schumachers lead helmet during the weigh in....he could barely lift that thing!


Not true, he was just a little tired and weary from the race .... and the weight was an extra safety feature (besides the whole thing is urban legend as we all know MS would never ever do anything except fully and completely comply with all rules)
I wonder if the reason there are no devout Sikh race drivers is because of helmet requirements..

D-Type
8th December 2008, 22:32
I would be interested to know your assessment of this, D-Type. I'm aware that Hahne took legal action against March, alleging that they had sold him a duff car, but then retired when Ronnie Peterson showed that it was OK — but what do you reckon?That's very much the way that Alan Henry told it. Hahne bought himself a March 701 to go Grand Prix racing. He failed to qualify on his debut at the German GP and decided that March had sold him a "less than competitive" car and as a result the March works cars were impounded at the German frontier. the March team principal, a certain Max Mosley, sorted it out. But Hahne wasn't convinced so it was agreed that Ronnie Peterson would test the car at Silverstone and match the times he had posted in his Colin Crabbe March. He lapped two seconds faster and Hahne quietly retired from racing and faded into obscurity.

I don't have either of the March histories so I can't get a second opinion. I would be interested to see what Mike Lawrence had to say about it.

So, what do we have?
In 1970 he was 35 which is old to make your F1 debut. He started in touring cars winning the 1600 cc class in the 1966 European touring car championship. In the same year he finished 2nd in the F2 class of the German GP and drove F2 cars there in 1967 and 68. He was second in the European F2 championship in 1969. So he wasn't a total no-hoper but obviously not so good that he was snapped up by a works team. Six Marches qualified for the German GP while he didn't. And Hockenheim was more of a 'car' than a 'drivers' circuit so his inexperience wouldn't have been as much of a handicap as at some other tracks. So you can understand why he felt he'd been sold a duff car. But, it was his first race in the car so he probably hadn't been able to set it up correctly, something he couldn't expect March to do for him and I would assume he hadn't the experience to do himself. Of course that wouldn't have worried Peterson who could drive anything fast.

So basically I go along with the popular story.