SUBARU is Dead......

[Fide]

Former rally driver Penti Airikala mentioned in an interview Subaru like Audi is dead not just for the position of his engine also distance from floor.... He has been very strong with this affirmation. Not a good press for David Richards, and Japanese Corporation (attached the hyperlink to access the interview). What do you think ?????????????????


[/size]http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/170587-0/airikkala_subaru_is_dead.html (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/170587-0/airikkala_subaru_is_dead.html[/color)

[Daniel]

This has been posted before

[gloomyDAY]

This has been posted beforeYeah, and he's saying exactly what countless posts on here have already reviewed.

[jonkka]

Former

I have no further comment.

[Corny]

and suddenly it's al clear...... :s

[DonJippo]

I have no further comment.

Laws of physics still stay the same you know....

[N.O.T]

with all respect but subaru had the same engine positioning and outline even when they were winning

[Mirek]

N.O.T: Audis were also winning for some time ;)

[RS]

Hmmm, I understand the "having the weight in the middle of the car" bit, but not about getting it high up. Doesn't that go against all performance car theory? I don't see Ferrari making an MPV because they handle better!

[jonkka]

Laws of physics still stay the same you know....

In matters of physics I would rather believe a trained engineer a la Christian Loriaux than... Since mr Airikkala got into very public fight in Vauhdin Maailma with Gronholm about nose-first driving technique (as opposed to scandinavia flick), I've had my doubts about angry opinions.

[farquar wrc]

Put Loeb in the Subaru and you would then see it's the organic things steering the car are the problem,not the car itself

[TKM]

Put Loeb in the Subaru and you would then see it's the organic things steering the car are the problem,not the car itself

You need to stop smoking crack!!

[ARF]

Suddenly a drunk "hasbeen" is the guru of truth :) But seems like here you worship him.

[farquar wrc]

[quote="TKM"]i can see Subaru's problem,Mr Petter Hasbeen and Mr Chris Willneverbe

[ShiftingGears]

i can see Subaru's problem,Mr Petter Hasbeen and Mr Chris Willneverbe

Thats the reason Subaru are 3 minutes off the pace, in every rally.




Clearly.

[Daniel]

In matters of physics I would rather believe a trained engineer a la Christian Loriaux than... Since mr Airikkala got into very public fight in Vauhdin Maailma with Gronholm about nose-first driving technique (as opposed to scandinavia flick), I've had my doubts about angry opinions.

Well it's trained engineers who don't seem to be able to get the Subaru to work properly.

In a car that just races around a track a low centre of gravity is good. But I remember Ry who was one of the first mods on this forum who also happened to be an automotive engineer or something similar said to me once that for a car in the forest you don't necessarily want everything as low down as possible. Perhaps he was talking crap.... I don't know. But I think it makes sense. Pentti also mentions softer suspension on the C4. Citroen also did this with the Xsara. They had the hydraulic anti-roll bars made by Kinetic which meant that the car could run softer suspension settings and be better on tyres while still resisting roll in the suspension just as well as it's competitors and having the advantage of being able to soak up bumps better than the competition.Now they don't have the hydraulic anti-roll bars anymore but they learnt their lesson and still keep things a bit softer and it's quite obvious that it works for them.

I think the opinion of a driver should be respected. After all it's the driver who is the dumbass who gets in the car and has to have the confidence in the thing. The engineers can look at telemetry and see that a different setting will give them a slight advantage through a corner but it's the driver who needs to have confidence in the car and have a car that works well over a whole stage.

[MJW]

Its not often we get to compare test footage - but have a look at these two links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4XcfU8CHu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Xxbb5oZWg&feature=related
In the first you will see that Petter is having to resort to 'flicks' to get the turn in, the car also wants to understeer after the apex, and in one corner it had the classic oversteer turning to understeer during the corner.
Maybe Pentti is correct......
The Citroen on the other hand has big power! also even though Loeb likes a car slightly understeering (racer style) it is clearly desirable understeer not the kind of understeer that seems to afflict the S14 on this video.
I dont think Petter has an easy or forgiving car to drive.

[Nenukknak]

I have often disagreed with the way Pentti views the physics of cars. But I am certainly no expert. But after reading the above stated article and in particularly this section:

"You have to have a weight transfer that is very fast in World Rally cars. You don't need it in F1 cars, but the cars without wings, like rally cars, they have to have a weight transfer that is very quick. To achieve that you have to put the weight high up in the car and then you can change direction very quickly."

This last sentence totally makes no sense. Since when is a car with a high center of gravity better/faster at transfering weight than a car with a low center of gravity.
I truelly wonder what the hell he's talking about. Either he does know something, but doesn't know how to explain it, or he's totally barking up the wrong tree here.

[Tomi]

Since mr Airikkala got into very public fight in Vauhdin Maailma with Gronholm about nose-first driving technique (as opposed to scandinavia flick), I've had my doubts about angry opinions.

That was a missunderstanding from Bosses side and sorted out already.

[TKM]

All haul Loeb, his such a god!!! FFS, there's no doubting that Loeb ability, he is the best, but even he wouldn't win in a Subaru, it's quite simply a POS.

And I still think you're smoking crack, even if I did get moderated because I didn't agree with someone else's opinion. This site is a joke!!!!

Glad I got my pickem's in before I get banned !!

[ARF]

Or the case of H-stick versus +/- paddleshifting? Was that also misunderstanding?
The high center of gravity is of course the best he's come up with :)

[MikeD]

Suddenly a drunk "hasbeen" is the guru of truth :) But seems like here you worship him.

:lol: I wanted to say it but didn't dare :D Some of the things he says is the worst kind of BS I have head for a long time. What a joke!

[Tomi]

Or the case of H-stick versus +/- paddleshifting? Was that also misunderstanding?

Dont know about that.

[koko0703]

Its not often we get to compare test footage - but have a look at these two links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4XcfU8CHu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Xxbb5oZWg&feature=related
In the first you will see that Petter is having to resort to 'flicks' to get the turn in, the car also wants to understeer after the apex, and in one corner it had the classic oversteer turning to understeer during the corner.
Maybe Pentti is correct......
The Citroen on the other hand has big power! also even though Loeb likes a car slightly understeering (racer style) it is clearly desirable understeer not the kind of understeer that seems to afflict the S14 on this video.
I dont think Petter has an easy or forgiving car to drive.

Very interesting.... They are different, but I can't really tell if the car is oversteering or understeering just from these footage. Petter and Loeb have different driving style, so even if they test the same car, I assume the car's movement will look differently from outside. Only thing I noticed is that Citroen really accelerates out of corner.

[Finni]

Airikkala's claim about weigh distribution actually reflects what Christian Loriaix said previously in crashnet: weigh distribution of Focus is not as good as in C4.

Also the claim about engine seemed to be true at least in those times when virtual spectators showed clear advantage to Citroen and Peugeot (last time was 2006 when I saw those clips).

Ford's suspension should be extremely well developed. Considering this issue Airikkala's opinion is weird.

[Finni]

Interesting quote from Quesnell:

"At the beginning it was fair to say our car was better on asphalt than gravel, but now I'm quite sure on gravel the Citroen is a little bit ahead of the other cars".

[jonkka]

"At the beginning it was fair to say our car was better on asphalt than gravel, but now I'm quite sure on gravel the Citroen is a little bit ahead of the other cars".

I find that hard to believe because since Vaucard retired Citroen hasn't had a decent chief engineer whereas Loriaux is winning designer since WRC2000 version of Impreza. Yet, interestingly, C4 has beaten out Focus even if Vaucard retired over three years ago.

Sometimes logic beats out a man - which is hard to admit.

[jonkka]

Or the case of H-stick versus +/- paddleshifting? Was that also misunderstanding?

There are of course pros and cons.

The (claimed) single most common reason for gearbox breakage is driver's mis-shift which sequential gearbox eliminates. But it makes down shifting more inefficient where you need to skip gears as in coming from full-throttle sixth gear straight to a hairpin, for example. With H-pattern you simply skip from sixth to second whereas with sequential you need to paddle through all the intervening gears. Shifting up it's not that different because with automatic clutch it's faster to switch one gear at a time and to keep accelerating all the time whereas with manual you're bound to have significant off-throttle time.


The high center of gravity is of course the best he's come up with :)

A gem... :)

[jonkka]

Well it's trained engineers who don't seem to be able to get the Subaru to work properly.

True - but who do they have as engineers? Since Loriaux left - who was only a assistant to Lapworth at the time he departed -, Subaru has had their engineering difficulties. Lapworth was more or less kicked out, replaced with racing engineers who made the obvious mistakes of the people who've never designed a car that needs to negotiate a ford (what a pun).


I think the opinion of a driver should be respected. After all it's the driver who is the dumbass who gets in the car and has to have the confidence in the thing. The engineers can look at telemetry and see that a different setting will give them a slight advantage through a corner but it's the driver who needs to have confidence in the car and have a car that works well over a whole stage.

You're absolutely right with this. Even if some setting would give you theoretical advantage, if driver isn't comfortable with that it's not a advantage at all. And if this gray zone of driver feeling is what Pentti is referring to then I understand.

[ARF]

There are of course pros and cons.

The (claimed) single most common reason for gearbox breakage is driver's mis-shift which sequential gearbox eliminates. But it makes down shifting more inefficient where you need to skip gears as in coming from full-throttle sixth gear straight to a hairpin, for example. With H-pattern you simply skip from sixth to second whereas with sequential you need to paddle through all the intervening gears. Shifting up it's not that different because with automatic clutch it's faster to switch one gear at a time and to keep accelerating all the time whereas with manual you're bound to have significant off-throttle time.



A gem... :)

And if you'd knew anything about gearboxes, then you would also know, that until this very day Subaru still uses H-pattern, because it's the fastest.

It's the way the gears ar built inside the gearbox, not how they are changed.
But you are talking about a stick and a paddle...

[SubaruNorway]

The reason you need to skip gears on a "stick shift" is that it's too slow to go through all the gears down. keeping it in gear as on a paddle shift makes the car more stable under breaking too.

[SubaruNorway]

Oh and the thing Pentti says about Subaru having the engine too far forward is made up for having the gearbox in the "middle" oposed to the other cars wich have it in the front. So the old man is mostly all c*** :)

[Daniel]

The reason you need to skip gears on a "stick shift" is that it's too slow to go through all the gears down. keeping it in gear as on a paddle shift makes the car more stable under breaking too.

Sometimes you don't want the car to be stable under braking.

[SubaruNorway]

Well no problem making it unstable if you really want to with a paddle shift either though

[Rani]

Oh and the thing Pentti says about Subaru having the engine too far forward is made up for having the gearbox in the "middle" oposed to the other cars wich have it in the front. So the old man is mostly all c*** :)
This raises another question:
Won't the gearbox placement help centralize the mass and make the Impreza
change direction faster (lower PMI)?
Isn't this the problem according to Pentti?
Also could someone clarify this 'higher CG faster weight transfer' theory?

[SubaruNorway]

This raises another question:
Won't the gearbox placement help centralize the mass and make the Impreza
change direction faster (lower PMI)?
Isn't this the problem according to Pentti?
Also could someone clarify this 'higher CG faster weight transfer' theory?


Yeah i don't get the higher CG thing eiher cos if you have all that weight on one side it takes more force and longer time to move it back over to the other side again, so that doesn't make sence to me really.

[Daniel]

Well no problem making it unstable if you really want to with a paddle shift either though
Not really. With an H pattern you can go straight from 6th to 2nd or 5th to 3rd or whatever you want which means you can really push the back out going into hairpins and so on.

[SubaruNorway]

Not really. With an H pattern you can go straight from 6th to 2nd or 5th to 3rd or whatever you want which means you can really push the back out going into hairpins and so on.


Can you explain why that means you can really push the back out?

[ARF]

WRC changes gears in 3/1000 of second, that's 0,003 seconds for a gearchange. Can't imagine anyone changing so fast with the stick. Perhaps Pentti could.

[Woodeye]

WRC changes gears in 3/1000 of second, that's 0,003 seconds for a gearchange. Can't imagine anyone changing so fast with the stick. Perhaps Pentti could.

Somehow I have a funny feeling that you have something personal against him... :mark:

[Daniel]

WRC changes gears in 3/1000 of second, that's 0,003 seconds for a gearchange. Can't imagine anyone changing so fast with the stick. Perhaps Pentti could.
It's not about how quick it is. Something tells me that in addition to having something against Pentti you judge a car by it's 0-60 time above anything else......

[Daniel]

Can you explain why that means you can really push the back out?
What is there to understand about pushing the back end of a car out? :mark:

[SubaruNorway]

What is there to understand about pushing the back end of a car out? :mark:

Well why do you think you can do it easier with a stick shift rathar than a paddle shift?

[Finni]

I find that hard to believe because since Vaucard retired Citroen hasn't had a decent chief engineer whereas Loriaux is winning designer since WRC2000 version of Impreza. Yet, interestingly, C4 has beaten out Focus even if Vaucard retired over three years ago.

Sometimes logic beats out a man - which is hard to admit.

Don't know what your ending line means but your reasoning is hardly compelling. Citroen's engineering team is organized by the best and most demanding team-boss ever. Our superficial knowledge is hardly good enough to define the significance of one star-engineer over solid team of engineers of other team. F1 is good example: Mclaren don't have big names like Adrian Newey or Nicholas Tombazis but their car has been certainly very competitive last times.

[Daniel]

Well why do you think you can do it easier with a stick shift rathar than a paddle shift?

Come on mate.... have you ever driven a car? Have you ever noticed a difference in the way your car handles going around the same corner at a decent speed with the clutch in, going around in 5th gear at low revs or on entry to the corner going down from 5th gear to 2nd or 3rd gear and then try going through the same corner going 5-4-3-2 or whatever. You'll notice that you'll understeer like hell going through with the clutch in or in 5th gear, you'll notice that going 5-4-3-2 gives you a very smooth and stable entry and going from 5th-2nd will load the front of the car up and make it turn in nicely as well as giving you revs so that you're more likely to get a good drive going out of the corner. By forcing you to go 5-4-3-2 the seqential style box lessens this effect by giving it to you in 3 hits rather than one. This is one of the reasons cars are less sideways these days when you compare them to the days when Colin was in a group A Impreza with an H pattern box.

[SubaruNorway]

You're supposed to let the brakes do the breaking, not the engine, which doesn't really do much braking anyway because of the anti lag.

I think todays driving style is more due to the diffs rather than having a paddle instead of a stick. Of course they can drive with big flicks today too, but they don't have to because the car pulls around the corner anyway.

But does anyone get what Pentti means with high CG?

It's like if you take a hammer and put it upright with the heavy thing at the top, then try and move it from side to side, then flip it the other way. Which is easiest and fastest?

[Daniel]

What does anti lag have to do with engine braking? That's the turbo, not the engine :mark: you can still brake with anti-lag.

[SubaruNorway]

What does anti lag have to do with engine braking? That's the turbo, not the engine :mark: you can still brake with anti-lag.


Ok i don't really know if you don't have engine breaking at all and if it's different from group N compared to WRC. But from what I've heard anyway is that you don't really have engine breaking beacuse with the antilag it sort of pulls the exsaust out of the engine making very little resistance left to make engine breaking.

[ARF]

It's not about how quick it is. Something tells me that in addition to having something against Pentti you judge a car by it's 0-60 time above anything else......

You got me here... Btw. 0-60 is much quicker with paddleshifting :D

Anyway, it's nothing personal, the man is just so stuck in yesterday.

[A.F.F.]

Anyway, it's nothing personal, the man is just so stuck in yesterday.

Hmmm... When I met the man, he was pretty on time. Yes, with his thoughts about rallying too.

[Tomi]

I have known Pentti more than 30 years and have nothing bad to say about him either.

[jparker]

WRC changes gears in 3/1000 of second, that's 0,003 seconds for a gearchange. Can't imagine anyone changing so fast with the stick. Perhaps Pentti could.

Yes, but Pentti is probably one of the quickest with stick, and that deserves more respect then people who push buttons.
To be hones, all that high tech expensive garbage must go, once and for all. Going back to basics may actually help Subaru get back in the game, but from what I read in this forum, they don't want to. Go figure.

[cut the b.s.]

I think some posters seem to have a problem with Pentti, the guy deserves a bit more respect than been given by some here. I wonder would some of our keyboard heros be so sure and arrogant if they were talking face to face to him?

Regarding Penttis CoG theory, I think he is talking about feel as much as ultimate speed on this one? Hopefully he will be on here soon and can try to clear up exactly what he means for people

[duff]

Come on mate.... have you ever driven a car? Have you ever noticed a difference in the way your car handles going around the same corner at a decent speed with the clutch in, going around in 5th gear at low revs or on entry to the corner going down from 5th gear to 2nd or 3rd gear and then try going through the same corner going 5-4-3-2 or whatever. You'll notice that you'll understeer like hell going through with the clutch in or in 5th gear, you'll notice that going 5-4-3-2 gives you a very smooth and stable entry and going from 5th-2nd will load the front of the car up and make it turn in nicely as well as giving you revs so that you're more likely to get a good drive going out of the corner. By forcing you to go 5-4-3-2 the seqential style box lessens this effect by giving it to you in 3 hits rather than one. This is one of the reasons cars are less sideways these days when you compare them to the days when Colin was in a group A Impreza with an H pattern box.

Um, I don't know about this...
which ever manner that you get down to 2nd in an example like this your engine speed and revs SHOULD be the same as you come into, and go through, the corner. the point is that you want to break as hard as you can and get to the gear as quick as you can, all the balancing in WRCars can be done through the brakes.
Suggesting that engine braking in WRCars will load the car up more than if it is solely under brakes should not make any sense as, especially on gravel, the brakes can lock up instantly if the driver wants them to. If the tires are at their limit of grip, then what good does extra braking force (i.e. engine braking) do? (unless you are suggesting that Centrifugal force has something to do with it)
The drivers can do anything they need to using the brakes
(in relation to effecting weight distribution and turn in) in modern WRCars . The reason that drivers block shift in H-pattern cars is because you can match the downshift to the braking faster, not because it puts more weight to the front therefore making the turn in better, braking alone puts load on the front. Going down through all the gears in rally cars is not needed. If you are talking about a car with inferior brakes then its a different story.
I don't know if you're mistaking this for using compression lock ups on the entry to a corner (which is essential in RWD, useless in FWD and not too much better in 4WD). As for engine braking in WRCars, one of if the main objectives is for the engine designers to minimize moving parts, thus decreasing friction and load inside the engine, to get the most out a highly restricted piece of machinery. The aim of this is to all but eliminate all unnecessary and wasteful load on the engine while accelerating to get maximum power to the wheels. This surely means minimum engine load under brakes as well.

[L5->R5/CR]

Well why do you think you can do it easier with a stick shift rathar than a paddle shift?

Pros of the H-pattern traditional gear box
1) You don't have to remember how many times you hit what paddle or from where you started.
2) You can pick a gear by feel and don't have to take your eyes off of the road.
3) Makes it harder to stall in really sharp turns by not selecting the proper gear.

Pros of the paddle shift
1) Faster shifts allow you to take advantage of different gears faster.
2) Harder to break the gear box by jumping from 4th to 1st on accident.
3) Don't have to take your hands off of the wheel making it easier to steer the car.

The paddle shift is clearly faster (otherwise you wouldn't use it if you didn't have to). However, the traditional gear selection is probably easier to use (look at the number of young drivers in paddle shifting cars stalling on hair pins for instance). Personally, I think it would be easier at first with a traditional gear box...


as to the:


But does anyone get what Pentti means with high CG?

With a higher COG you will get a more pronounced transfer of the weight. Go back to your hammer example. With the hammer head up and the handle down it is maybe slower to transfer the weight but more weight transfers. With the lower COG (meaning hammer handle on the table) the weight transfer is less pronounced. Part of what can make a rally car handle is the use of the strength of the sidewall versus the momentum of the car. If you have more weight on the outside tires there is more pressure, and therefore counteracting force on the tires relative to the direction of travel. With more weight on the outside tires you should be able to grip better.

With a lower COG you need higher G loads (more traction) to acheive the same severity and speed of weight transfer (relative to the traction available). When you are on a surface of finite traction, you can move your COG to a more optimal level. If your COG is lower than your optimal weight transfer versus COG level you will not be optimized.

The problem as some would say with applying these ideas is that between the differentials, tires, and other suspension elements (the kinetic/hydraulic anti-roll bars of Citroen for example) the effects of this type of weight transfer are greatly altered.

In short, if you put circuit shock and spring settings (very firm) and gravel shock and spring settings (moderately soft) on an identical car and then put it on smooth gravel, the softer car is likely to go faster as the firm car's suspension will not be able to cope with the reduction in traction. If you totally flip the scenario, you will see the softer set up slower on a sealed surface.

Maybe I am misunderstanding somewhere but that should be more or less an accurate answer to your question...

[Saabaru]

Very interesting.... They are different, but I can't really tell if the car is oversteering or understeering just from these footage. Petter and Loeb have different driving style, so even if they test the same car, I assume the car's movement will look differently from outside. Only thing I noticed is that Citroen really accelerates out of corner.
The reason the S14 is understeering is it still has all the weight in front of the front wheels but there is nothing behind the rear wheels with the current wagon design to correct the problem. Lateral kinetic energy is very unbalanced wile turning and the front wheels have more energy to convert from one direction to another than the older model impreza.

[AndyRAC]

Yes, but Pentti is probably one of the quickest with stick, and that deserves more respect then people who push buttons.
To be hones, all that high tech expensive garbage must go, once and for all. Going back to basics may actually help Subaru get back in the game, but from what I read in this forum, they don't want to. Go figure.

Agree, get back to simple, cheap technology. Yet Subaru don't want to - fine then, they're the idiots. All this technology has killed the sport.
As for Pentti, he's a legend, he might be a Finn, but also an 'Honoury Brit' - actually what he says makes sense.

[Nenukknak]

With a higher COG you will get a more pronounced transfer of the weight. Go back to your hammer example. With the hammer head up and the handle down it is maybe slower to transfer the weight but more weight transfers. With the lower COG (meaning hammer handle on the table) the weight transfer is less pronounced. Part of what can make a rally car handle is the use of the strength of the sidewall versus the momentum of the car. If you have more weight on the outside tires there is more pressure, and therefore counteracting force on the tires relative to the direction of travel. With more weight on the outside tires you should be able to grip better.

With a lower COG you need higher G loads (more traction) to acheive the same severity and speed of weight transfer (relative to the traction available). When you are on a surface of finite traction, you can move your COG to a more optimal level. If your COG is lower than your optimal weight transfer versus COG level you will not be optimized.

The problem as some would say with applying these ideas is that between the differentials, tires, and other suspension elements (the kinetic/hydraulic anti-roll bars of Citroen for example) the effects of this type of weight transfer are greatly altered.

In short, if you put circuit shock and spring settings (very firm) and gravel shock and spring settings (moderately soft) on an identical car and then put it on smooth gravel, the softer car is likely to go faster as the firm car's suspension will not be able to cope with the reduction in traction. If you totally flip the scenario, you will see the softer set up slower on a sealed surface.

Maybe I am misunderstanding somewhere but that should be more or less an accurate answer to your question...

A) This is not what Pentti says, he talks about faster weight transfer with a higher CoG, not about the pronouncety of the weight transfer.

B) More weight on the outside tyres, means less weight on the inside tyre. I really cannot see the improvement in that. Furthermore it takes longer to change the car in a different direction due to the higher CoG. So IMO no benefit from higher CoG.

C) You're so-called summary makes no sense, since you're talking about higher CoG and then about spring settings. It's logical that spring settings are softer on gravel and harder on tarmac, what does that have to do with CoG??
Harder springs cannot "follow" a gravel road and the car will bottom out (lower rideheight), softer springs and higher ride height counteract this on gravel.

[Nenukknak]

The reason the S14 is understeering is it still has all the weight in front of the front wheels but there is nothing behind the rear wheels with the current wagon design to correct the problem. Lateral kinetic energy is very unbalanced wile turning and the front wheels have more energy to convert from one direction to another than the older model impreza.

This is complete BS. Two rights don't make a wrong. Audi tried that with the Sport E2, and it helped somewhat, but that was due the fact that it was lighter upfront. Audi would have been better off if they had put al that stuff inside the wheelbase. But two wrongs don't make a right, anything that sticks out over the wheels to the back or the front will make a car handle less.

Secondly, what makes you come to the conclusion that the hatchback design have less weight over/behind its rearwheels than the sedan version.

[Daniel]

I was thinking the same thing. It's not like they didn't have the problem before they moved to a hatch.

[L5->R5/CR]

A) This is not what Pentti says, he talks about faster weight transfer with a higher CoG, not about the pronouncety of the weight transfer.

B) More weight on the outside tyres, means less weight on the inside tyre. I really cannot see the improvement in that. Furthermore it takes longer to change the car in a different direction due to the higher CoG. So IMO no benefit from higher CoG.

C) You're so-called summary makes no sense, since you're talking about higher CoG and then about spring settings. It's logical that spring settings are softer on gravel and harder on tarmac, what does that have to do with CoG??
Harder springs cannot "follow" a gravel road and the car will bottom out (lower rideheight), softer springs and higher ride height counteract this on gravel.


If you have a higher COG and a limited amount of grip then you more than likely will need a softer suspension to be able to absorb some of the initial weight transfer and allow for more weight to be transferred more gradually. If the surface is perfectly smooth the car with the softer set up, assuming a loose and limited grip surface, should be faster the majority of the time if all other variables are kept constant.

As to the more weight on the outside tires not making sense...

It depends on the overall package.

In the current WRC era the tires, the differentials, and other suspension set ups relegate this idea to be a bit outdated. However, in principle, you get a rally car through a turn on gravel as much with the sidewalls of the outside tires as anything (the sidewall helps to absorb the momentum of the car (to slow it down) while the rotation/tread of the tires attempts to translate that into a new direction). To ensure the sidewalls have enough pressure and force to be able to absorb the momentum of the car in the turn, more weight on the outside tires is necessary. This is highly dependent on the amount of grip and traction that is possible for the vehicle. Given the current generation of tires and differentials this type of driving isn't as necessary.

I would imagine that given the period of technology when Pentti was rallying at a high level that he did a lot of "turning with the sidewalls" and that a higher COG would make for more effective and useful weight transfer and therefore make the car feel easier to drive.


And you are right, the settings example was tangental and not well tied in.

All of my understanding of these handling ideas is based on experience working in a rally team going through three different drivers with three different styles and trying to get the car set up to each drivers preferences. This is based on their explanations and feed back, the physics or engineering principles may not be entirely accurate but at least two of the drivers are very highly skilled with very very diverse racing backgrounds and work on set ups for many disciplines of racing.

[Tomi]

I was thinking the same thing. It's not like they didn't have the problem before they moved to a hatch.

with a bit of luck and much money they might solve their biggest problem (crap drivers) very soon.

[pino]

with a bit of luck and much money they might solve their biggest problem (crap drivers) very soon.

Come on paisá, name me 2 available drivers who could win or compete against Loeb, with such car...go on ;)

[Daniel]

I have known Pentti more than 30 years and have nothing bad to say about him either.

You don't even look 30 :p I don't believe you :p

[Nenukknak]

In the current WRC era the tires, the differentials, and other suspension set ups relegate this idea to be a bit outdated. However, in principle, you get a rally car through a turn on gravel as much with the sidewalls of the outside tires as anything (the sidewall helps to absorb the momentum of the car (to slow it down) while the rotation/tread of the tires attempts to translate that into a new direction). To ensure the sidewalls have enough pressure and force to be able to absorb the momentum of the car in the turn, more weight on the outside tires is necessary. This is highly dependent on the amount of grip and traction that is possible for the vehicle. Given the current generation of tires and differentials this type of driving isn't as necessary.

I would imagine that given the period of technology when Pentti was rallying at a high level that he did a lot of "turning with the sidewalls" and that a higher COG would make for more effective and useful weight transfer and therefore make the car feel easier to drive.



Two things, this wall build up will happen on the inner tyre as well and don't two smaller walls make one bigger wall, yet still keep traction on both wheels, therefore using bothwheels when steering therefore steering better.

Second point, make the car feel easier to drive is not the same as going faster. So again the point remains, what does Pentti mean? What he says in the article makes no sense. If he means what you mean, he should and has stated before what you say. And that's open to debate I guess and depends on different things as you say. But the fact remains that the sentence as it is stated by Pentti in the article makes no sense.

[Daniel]

Come on paisá, name me 2 available drivers who could win or compete against Loeb, with such car...go on ;)
Gigi? :p

[Tomi]

You don't even look 30 :p I don't believe you :p

Pena is my old neighbour before he moved to uk.

[Tomi]

Come on paisá, name me 2 available drivers who could win or compete against Loeb, with such car...go on ;)

thats maybe true, but from here might come a guy who atleast would try and not stop the driving if the sun happens to be in wrong angle.

[SubaruNorway]

ok got some info on ALS today just to sort that out. It doesn't only remove engine breaking but it actualy pushes the car even when you lift off, so you could say that the turbo runs the car by itself in a way. Novice drivers are actualy not alowed to use the highest ALS setting, atleast on the Impreza that is.

If you want higher COG you could just do it as easy as raising the ride hight too. But it's not good to overload the outside tyres either. It's all up to the driver, but today i think that having a high car doesn't make it very fast eventhough the driver might feel that it's better it would be best if he could adapt to the car.

[Daniel]

Pena is my old neighbour before he moved to uk.
No no I believe that :)

I just don't believe you're even 30 :p (well I do really... but ah crap :mark: )

[Tomi]

No no I believe that :)

I just don't believe you're even 30 :p (well I do really... but ah crap :mark: )

lol, btw there was many rallydrivers living in the same area, Ari, Mikkola, Timo Mäkinen, Henkka, Juha Repo also Mikko Sundström did not live so far away.

[L5->R5/CR]

Two things, this wall build up will happen on the inner tyre as well and don't two smaller walls make one bigger wall, yet still keep traction on both wheels, therefore using bothwheels when steering therefore steering better.


Which is why I said with the modern differential and suspension technologies as well as tires the idea isn't as applicable.

At least I took a stab at an answer and we got some decent discussion...

[Englandsfahrer]

If you want higher COG you could just do it as easy as raising the ride hight too. But it's not good to overload the outside tyres either. It's all up to the driver, but today i think that having a high car doesn't make it very fast eventhough the driver might feel that it's better it would be best if he could adapt to the car.

That's not entirely correct. As far as I understand, it works a little more like this; Just raising the car gives you a higher centre of gravity compared to the wheels, but that doesn't really affect the basic CG of the car. What you alter is more the geometry/Roll Centre. The thing that really matters is how high the centre of gravity is within the sprung weight. In other words: The internal centre of gravity of the shell is what defines the basic character of the car. E.G. how high the centre of gravity is in relation to where the suspension mounts. This dictates how much the car would like to "lean around the top of the suspension." Think of it as the cars ballance point. If the CG where to be right in the middle of the the car wouldn't be inclined to roll at all, it would just push the suspension sideways. A Low CG is good, but because of a gravel roads nature, with series of offcamber turns and other difficult surfaces, being able to put a lot of load on the outside tyres is important. A to low CG makes it more difficult, and the driver might have to sway the car back and forth to get some transfer.

To those who said that having more weight on the outside tyres doesnt' make sense, the reason this is important is that you get more weight per square centimetre. The two outside tyres will have more force pushing them into the ground, causing the tyres to have a better chance of contact with the firm ground under the loose suface. It's the opposite of a tank, which uses tracks to distribute it's enormous weight, so it doesn't penetrate the surface too much.

Anyway, back to CG: When you have the centre of gravity right inside the shell, you can take into consideration the Roll centre. The roll centre is relative to the height difference between the hub and the mounting point on the chassis. This is why raising or lowering the car too much is bad for the ballance. Ideally the suspension arms shouldn't point too much up or down, as that moves the roll centre compared to the wheels again.

(Basically, if one could get the CG and RC lower than the mounting points the suspension, you would have a car that would lean INTO the turn, like a monorail train with an overhead track. )

I like to think about CG and RC like this: CG causes the car to want to lean, and RC is the point it rolls around.

If you have both the CG and RC correct at both ends of the car, normally you have a car that handles well. Still having the entire engine in front of the wheels like subaru, gives the front a natural inertia that neither correct weight ballance, CG or RC can overcome. Ad in dampers that can't keep the wheels on the road, and you have a reason why Petter and Chris are slow.

[ShiftingGears]

with a bit of luck and much money they might solve their biggest problem (crap drivers) very soon.

Are you kidding?

[HaCo]

I like to think about CG and RC like this: CG causes the car to want to lean, and RC is the point it rolls around.

I drive radio controlled cars, and that is exactly what it is. I know some of you might possibly think these are just toys, but have a look here on an approach to R/C suspension: http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/c2/index.htm
This is the complete document: http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/

This discussion is quite interesting :)

[JRodrigues]

Award nomination for the Subaru World Rally Team

The Impreza WRC2008's gearbox has been shortlisted for Powertrain Innovation of the Year

The Prodrive and Xtrac designed gearbox used by the Subaru World Rally Team in the all-new Subaru Impreza WRC2008 has been shortlisted for the prestigious Powertrain Innovation of the Year Award at Professional MotorSport World Expo, an annual industry show for motorsport professionals.

The Impreza World Rally Car’s gearbox is a six-speed unit that utilises Prodrive’s electro-hydraulic paddle-shift system. It is the only gearbox within the World Rally Championship to retain an H pattern layout similar to that common amongst road cars.

This layout makes gear changes faster than a sequential unit, at around 12 milliseconds per shift, and means that drivers are able to select any gear at any time, allowing greater flexibility of use and recovery through block-shifting.

It is the latest evolution of SWRT’s long-established rally-proven technology: the first all-new gearbox in ten years. It was borne from 18 months of intensive CAD design followed by three months’ testing on SWRT’s in-house dyno before being introduced to the Impreza WRC2008 for further in-car shakedown and systems testing before its competitive debut on the Acropolis Rally in May.

All of the once-external oil lines have been internalised within the casting in this latest iteration, and simplicity rules as it is now formed from a total of two main castings rather than five. This contributes to it weighing in at a significant nine kilograms lighter than the previous gearbox of the Impreza WRC2007.

Now in their third year, the awards will be presented during the annual Professional MotorSport World Expo in Cologne, Germany from 11-13 November. For more information, visit http://www.pmw-expo.com.

http://www.swrt.com/news/latest_news.html?id=1568

http://www.swrt.com/img_gallery/110096668.jpg

Who asked for a H-pattern gearbox?? :p :p

[grugsticles]

http://www.swrt.com/img_gallery/110096668.jpg

Who asked for a H-pattern gearbox?? :p :p
Hmm, I didnt reasile that it was still an H-patten box.
Im assuming that the new design is full sequential?
Does anyone know for any more pictures or information on it?

[Doon]

:lol: I wanted to say it but didn't dare :D Some of the things he says is the worst kind of BS I have head for a long time. What a joke!

Ditto! The amount of ars*licking that goes on is sickening sometimes.....but i'm sure there won't be much brown nosing after these comments!

[Daniel]

Wow. Crap on a guy for having an opinion and speaking his mind. I haven't always agreed with what Pentti has said but at least I respect the fact that he's a well known driver and driving teacher and I'm not. At least show some respect and be prepared to think outside the box rather than just accepting commonly held views blindly and saying that a lower cog must be better because that's the way it is with road cars.

[Tomi]

Wow. Crap on a guy for having an opinion and speaking his mind. I haven't always agreed with what Pentti has said but at least I respect the fact that he's a well known driver and driving teacher and I'm not. At least show some respect and be prepared to think outside the box rather than just accepting commonly held views blindly and saying that a lower cog must be better because that's the way it is with road cars.

Yes a bit odd, especially when not a single one have had any own ideas that could be taken serious.

[Daniel]

Yes funny that isn't it.

[Doon]

I'm just saying everyone kisses his arse no matter what he says, right or wrong..... i'm sure it would be the same if any other driver of his status was on this forum!

I respect him as a driver, but his opinions seem to be on a different planet sometimes. As previously mentioned by another forum member, I would trust Mr. Lourioux to build me a rally car!

[Daniel]

But you've not discussed why he's wrong or presented any alternative theories. That's not how a discussion forum works. Lots of people disagree with Pentti openly on this forum. I've been one of them. I've heard other people talk about a highish cog being good for gravel rallying.

[Doon]

Well one of the problems I had with that artical was Pentti's saying that Loeb would be beaten by Latvala/Hirvonen if they were in Citroens. I know he taught them both for sometime, and this is why I think is is baised to them. It's a fact that Loeb is just so much better than anyone, not just his car. He has been the best driver in the WRC since 2003 in my opinion, and absolutly miles ahead of anyone. He has rarely struggled to match the pace of anyone else on any rally. I like the Ford guys and i'm a Ford fan but anyone who thinks they could be quicker than Loeb, for the rest of his best years, is living in dreamland!

Also I would have thought the Prodrive engineers can build a rally car, ok somethings made be wrong with it, i.e. dampers, but again it seems like its the organic things behind the steering wheel to an extent.

Or maybe Prodrive should employ Pentti?..........

[Daniel]

So Petter went from world champ to nothing in just a few short years? Loeb is without a doubt the best driver out there but you have to say the Xsara and C4 have been streets ahead of the competition on most rallies.

there is something obviously wrong with the Impreza and it aint drivers.

[Brother John]

It's a fact that Loeb is just so much better than anyone, not just his car. He has been the best driver in the WRC since 2003 in my opinion, and absolutly miles ahead of anyone. He has rarely struggled to match the pace of anyone else on any rally. I like the Ford guys and i'm a Ford fan but anyone who thinks they could be quicker than Loeb, for the rest of his best years, is living in dreamland!


It looks that you or living in dreamland, just like Loeb!
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/galerien/2008/loeb-flugshow/r/wm/galerien/2008/loeb-flugshow/index.html?tx_gooffotoboek_pi1%5Bfid%5D=17&cHash=fb0387ff84http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/galerien/2008/loeb-flugshow/r/wm/galerien/2008/loeb-flugshow/index.html?tx_gooffotoboek_pi1%5Bfid%5D=15&cHash=cdfdac6393

[Nenukknak]

.......... but you have to say the Xsara and C4 have been streets ahead of the competition on most rallies.


I don't agree with that, no-one has been able to do what Loeb did. Untill you get a top rally driver in there alongside Loeb to compare results, it's difficult to say how much of it is Loeb and how much the car. But I think no-one else of the current drivers can do what Loeb does and has been doing for the last years, not even in that C4.

[pino]

there is something obviously wrong with the Impreza and it aint drivers.

:up:

Daniel you're ok ? :eek: :p :

[gloomyDAY]

So Petter went from world champ to nothing in just a few short years? Loeb is without a doubt the best driver out there but you have to say the Xsara and C4 have been streets ahead of the competition on most rallies.

there is something obviously wrong with the Impreza and it aint drivers.....what the hell?

Am I reading that correctly? Quoted in case you decide to edit Daniel.

[N.O.T]

Actually Solberg is the only guy who managed to beat Loeb in a head to head clash for the championship...Gronholm/Hirvonen and others who are considered better drivers than Solberg only managed to get beaten like dogs without an owner from the emperor.

Having said that I think that Gronholm will be faster than Solberg if they are both in the same team of Subaru because all these years of bad results surely took their toll on Solbergs mentality. Will Gronholm challenge Loeb ? NO he won;t even be close to latvala in a subaru.

[Daniel]

....what the hell?

Am I reading that correctly? Quoted in case you decide to edit Daniel.
What was so crazy about my post? :confused:

[Tomi]

Will Gronholm challenge Loeb ? NO he won;t even be close to latvala in a subaru.
Thats what he said him self too, to get in top3 should not be too difficult, but to challenge Loeb allready a different case.
I also belive that Petter would be a piece of cake even that Bosse is pass his peak already, a little same like Burns and Märtin.

[Viking]

I think Petter should be happy to take on the challenge, he was quite good last time Subaru brought in an Finnish former WC :)

[Tomi]

I think Petter should be happy to take on the challenge, he was quite good last time Subaru brought in an Finnish former WC :)

I think the same, if petter still would be in the team it would do good for his preformance, he would have to drive instead of cry.

[N.O.T]

I think Petter should be happy to take on the challenge, he was quite good last time Subaru brought in an Finnish former WC :)

indeed he beat that hopeles farmer into retirement...maybe he will repeat his performance bout i don't think so.

[pino]

What was so crazy about my post? :confused:

You used to blame drivers for Subaru's poor performances....remember that ?

[ttiirika]

indeed he beat that hopeles farmer into retirement...maybe he will repeat his performance bout i don't think so.

That hopeless farmer is four time world champion, you know? Petter sure was faster at that time, but have you ever considered that maybe Tommi could set up Subaru to be fast. I have no doubts that Petter is fast, but maybe he is not that good in testing and setting up the car. This is only my guess or opinion and I like Petter very much. I am also sure that there is more than Petter to blame for weak performance of Subaru.

Actually I think that this is getting very ridiculous and very childish. Seems like some people don't respect anything or anyone's opinions. Some posts about Pentti Airikkala are totally aggravated. Also seems like some people judge drivers and cars based on results of last rally driven or even last stage driven. Seems like some people don't have perspective wide enough. It is sad and useless to read this kind of "conversation".

[Gard]

Surely Pentti has a point in the problem with Subarus COG. But if that is enough for Subaru to never have a competitive car, I don't know. I remember a gravel rally a year or to back, Petter had to raise the car, for the ruts and suddenly he went faster and the car responded better.

Pentti also says that C4 is set softer than the Focus, that must be a typo. According to Mikkelsen, the C4 is way stiffer than the Focus

[Daniel]

Pino. I've always maintained that Chris is a good driver. My only problem with Petter is that he seems to have given up over the last 2 years or so and when the car has been capable of a good result he has sometimes not been there to perform and Chris has got better results for the team. The two drivers are clearly skilled but just don't have the car underneath them to get the results Subaru used to get. Petter just seems sometimes like the guy who goes to work just to get paid. I'm sure a proper car would make him lift his game again though. Only time will tell

[Woodeye]

indeed he beat that hopeles farmer into retirement...

You are the saddest loser that I've ever seen in this forum.

I really don't get it why it's allowed for some to continuosly bash people like this all the time.

[Camelopard]

You are the saddest loser that I've ever seen in this forum.....

Yep, I'll agree with this, he never seems to offer anything constructive, just makes comments and criticisms about 'sick, scared dogs' and the like all the time.

As someone else said, he's very much like a broken record, just repeating the same crap over and over again, ad nauseum...............

I really do think he gets great satisfaction out of winding people up and that is his sole motivation for being on this forum.

[Daniel]

NOT :)

I think you need to stop this..... I'm no great fan of Tommi's but he was a great driver and what he did in his spare time or before rallying isn't really relevant on this forum :mark:

[cut the b.s.]

That hopeless farmer is four time world champion, you know? Petter sure was faster at that time, but have you ever considered that maybe Tommi could set up Subaru to be fast. I have no doubts that Petter is fast, but maybe he is not that good in testing and setting up the car. This is only my guess or opinion and I like Petter very much. I am also sure that there is more than Petter to blame for weak performance of Subaru.

Actually I think that this is getting very ridiculous and very childish. Seems like some people don't respect anything or anyone's opinions. Some posts about Pentti Airikkala are totally aggravated. Also seems like some people judge drivers and cars based on results of last rally driven or even last stage driven. Seems like some people don't have perspective wide enough. It is sad and useless to read this kind of "conversation".


Good post, some people on here need to read it a few times and hopefully in time they will be able to understand it.

Re N.O.T., this guys sole purpose seems to be to try to wind people up, the sooner people learn to ignore him the sooner he will go play on another forum.

[sollitt]

NOT :)

I think you need to stop this..... I'm no great fan of Tommi's but he was a great driver and what he did in his spare time or before rallying isn't really relevant on this forum :mark:

WOW! If that's not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
I hardly think you're in any position to hand out that particular kind of advice Daniel.

[duff]

indeed he beat that hopeles farmer into retirement...maybe he will repeat his performance bout i don't think so.

Absolutely ridiculous statement.

agreed Cut the B.S - Good Post from ttiirika

[Nenukknak]

WOW! If that's not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
I hardly think you're in any position to hand out that particular kind of advice Daniel.

LOL :D , was thinking the same thing. Now we know Daniel's motto: Do as I say, not as I do! :p

[Daniel]

Go and get a life you two :)

I do the wrong thing and I get people on my back and if I try and do the right thing I get people on my back too. I might as well just quit the forum and never post again.





Ha! Fat chance ladies.

[Nenukknak]

Hahaha Daniel's second motto: "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" ;) :p

[WRCfan]

It's always easy to bash a 4x World Champ from behind a computer screen, the pussy wouldn't have the guts to ever say it to his face I could bet good money on that!

Every forum has the 'armchair experts' who are of no more use than the crusty white bit of dog crap sitting on the lawn outside...

[Daniel]

Hahaha Daniel's second motto: "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" ;) :p

Yup.

Thing is I know a lot of people don't generally agree with me and I don't generally agree with them. But if they say something I agree then I'd like to think that I have the good grace to agree with them publicly. Or perhaps if I'm in a bad mood I won't post anything.

Now perhaps I'm very much mistaken but I don't see yourself or Solitt as the sort of people who agree with what NOT so why come down on me for saying that he should stop with this? :confused:

Your advances are flattering but unfortunately I'm taken :) Same goes for Solitt :love:

[Daniel]

It's always easy to bash a 4x World Champ from behind a computer screen, the pussy wouldn't have the guts to ever say it to his face I could bet good money on that!

Every forum has the 'armchair experts' who are of no more use than the crusty white bit of dog crap sitting on the lawn outside...

There's no need to describe someone as being of no more use than a piece of **** just because they've said something dumb. Lets at least show some respect for each other.

[Nenukknak]

Yup.


Now perhaps I'm very much mistaken but I don't see yourself or Solitt as the sort of people who agree with what NOT so why come down on me for saying that he should stop with this? :confused:


Well to be fair to NOT, Tomi was crap at Subaru. But in the Mitsubishi he was great and definitely one of my favourites.

On the subject of people saying what they want to say. Actually I don't think it's that bad what NOT says. If he thinks MAkinen is a crap farmering tractordriving, couldn't fly a fart if his live depended on it, driver. Then that's his choice. I don't agree, but I am certainly not bothered. And I think every forum benefits from different kind of people. People who know what they're talking about, people who want to learn so they can talk about it, people who are positive all the time, and also people who are negative all the time.

Just because someone writes something, doesn't mean you have to react to it.

[WRCfan]

There's no need to describe someone as being of no more use than a piece of **** just because they've said something dumb. Lets at least show some respect for each other.

Like people show respect to the best drivers in the world? mmmmm......

[Daniel]

I agree mostly. But so say he was hopeless is not really fair. One day Seb will be past his best too but he shouldn't be judged by the last couple of years of his career and neither should Tommi. I say this as someone who wasn't Tommi's biggest fan by far. All this talk of sick dogs, farmers and turds is just silly and isn't needed really. The only reason why I said NOT should stop it is that i've know him for a long time and he knows better than to make silly remarks about Tommi like that. Tommi's exit was not as glorious as it could have been but then again who other than Carlos and perhaps Marcus can claim to have gone out on top or at least near the top?

[Daniel]

WRCfan. If NOT jumps off a cliff will you be following? :laugh: Two wrongs don't make a right...... Are there any other cliche's I can use? :p

[WRCfan]

I like to say I have immense respect for all the guys in the WRC. Regardless of whether they are running 1st or 15th. They are all VERY good drivers and better than I am or will ever be.

Sometimes silly remarks should be met with silly remarks. At the end of the day whether he means it or not, to label Tommi in such a way as he did is as silly as dog turds...I don't care who you are or how long you have been following the sport, if you can't do a better job than Makinen then rubbishing him in such a fashion leaves you open to all sorts of remarks in my opinion. Critically discussing a driver and blindly tagging him in such a way is two completely different things...

[WRCfan]

WRCfan. If NOT jumps off a cliff will you be following? :laugh: Two wrongs don't make a right...... Are there any other cliche's I can use? :p

Yeah although I am the smart one with a parachute on my back...

[N.O.T]

you people take me far too seriously, I should be into politics...

Makinen wasn't even able to drive the evolution of the mitsubishi and when he left lasse behind and went to subaru he showed why his myth was a pile of rubbish....thats why he retired at 37 after solberg ridiculed him.

[WRCfan]

Makinen wasn't even able to drive the evolution of the mitsubishi

Neither was anyone else. It was a bit of a pig that one...

[N.O.T]

i remember paaaaaasonen was able to tame the car in NZ before going off....so not exactly true..the other drivers mitsubishi had when makinen was on board were comprised of c level ones in case they ridicule their overprotected child....when they actually hired a proper driver to the team as 2nd they won the manufacturers title....but they let him go...i wonder why...

[WRCfan]

Say what you like, the car was a pig regardless. One slight show of promise doesn't make it a class act. It was a shame as the car was a looker in my opinion. Nice clean lines on it...

[Bazza2541]

Its seems to be the done thing to crap upon Pentti recently on here, but I think (IIRC) that he posted about this before the new car came out and predicted where it would finish.
If someone with more knowledge would care to do a search on here, I'm sure his posts on the matter could be found.

[jonkka]

i remember paaaaaasonen was able to tame the car in NZ before going off....

One stage win makes Paasonen a hero of Lancer WRC? Right...


when they actually hired a proper driver to the team as 2nd they won the manufacturers title....but they let him go...i wonder why...

Richard started winning, asking too much in a way of salary and hoping to be treated an equal. That's natural order of things as it's not very common for a driver to rise through the ranks within one team, only Biasion and Loeb spring to mind. Mostly talent is snatched away to other teams.

[A.F.F.]

i remember paaaaaasonen was able to tame the car in NZ before going off....so not exactly true..the other drivers mitsubishi had when makinen was on board were comprised of c level ones in case they ridicule their overprotected child....when they actually hired a proper driver to the team as 2nd they won the manufacturers title....but they let him go...i wonder why...

You're not entitled to talk about Paasonen you sheep shagger.

[Woodeye]

i remember paaaaaasonen was able to tame the car in NZ before going off....so not exactly true..the other drivers mitsubishi had when makinen was on board were comprised of c level ones in case they ridicule their overprotected child....when they actually hired a proper driver to the team as 2nd they won the manufacturers title....but they let him go...i wonder why...

And still, Tommi won 4 titles. By pure luck? By being hopeless farmer? Maybe Kankkunen was a hopeless farmer as well, after all he won 4 titles as well. And Marcus won only 2 titles, that must make him two times more hopeless. After all, you have said the Loeb "ridiculed" him and "beat him to retirement".

The things you keep repeating all the time are just stupid and you know it as well. You want to provoke all the time and you have succeeded so you might as well stop now.

I other forums people like you are called trolls and they get banned. It should be the case here as well.

And by the way, north will never rise again.

[COD]

Neither was anyone else. It was a bit of a pig that one...

Actually, Grönholm was given the car in Portugal, and he was (without testing) fast in it before the car broke...

[ARF]

As if he'd never driven it before

[N.O.T]

Actually, Grönholm was given the car in Portugal, and he was (without testing) fast in it before the car broke...

that was still the A8 car not the wrc one back in 99

[Bazza2541]

I found an ignore feature in the user CP and now I can't see any of N.O.T's posts. Whoopeeeee!!!!

[Camelopard]

I found an ignore feature in the user CP and now I can't see any of N.O.T's posts. Whoopeeeee!!!!

So that just blocks his posts within the thread?

I'll give it a go. :)

[Livewireshock]

With SWRT announcing they are considering entering 4 WRC cars plus an additional 2 WRC in a M2 team, it is pointless in saying that Subaru are dead.

[Finni]

The only reason why I said NOT should stop it is that i've know him for a long time and he knows better than to make silly remarks about Tommi like that. Tommi's exit was not as glorious as it could have been but then again who other than Carlos and perhaps Marcus can claim to have gone out on top or at least near the top?

If I remember right Carlos was beaten as badly as Tommi before he retired. Altough Carlos was older at that point. Grönholm is the only champ in modern rallying who was fully on the pace when he retired.

[wrc_flipper]

Dead? Well looks like they are running possibly 5 or 6 cars next year (http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/subaru-five-or-six-s14s-09-wrc/) if they are dead going out with one hell of a bang!

[A.F.F.]

If you guys look at the statistic orf Tommi's first Subaru year, you can see Petter was far from ridiculing him. Tommi won the first rally and was fast all the way to Argentina where he was really fighting with Marcus and then he took one corner wide and had that huge roll. After that roll he wasn't the same.

I don't know how many times this story has to be written here. Memory is so selective attribute sometimes here on the forum. Folks write world's truth from the time they wasn't even born yet.

[Daniel]

If you guys look at the statistic orf Tommi's first Subaru year, you can see Petter was far from ridiculing him. Tommi won the first rally and was fast all the way to Argentina where he was really fighting with Marcus and then he took one corner wide and had that huge roll. After that roll he wasn't the same.

I don't know how many times this story has to be written here. Memory is so selective attribute sometimes here on the forum. Folks write world's truth from the time they wasn't even born yet.
:up:

[Tomi]

Dead? Well looks like they are running possibly 5 or 6 cars next year
Is this not the same crap they have been telling before every season the last 5 years, only difference this time is the amount of cars.
Sometimes i wonder if subaru fans ever feel like that Richards carry them around like waste ;)

[Wim]

Saw some footage of the testing in northern Spain. Car looks faster and more agile, the engine soundes more agressive. What surprised me was al the big men from subaru (japanese) and prodrive were there in person at the test.
What i read about the COG here is partial true. I remember jumps in the past with Richard Burns and Mc Rae when the impreza's COG was even wurse..
I think the real impreza problem is handling (dampers en diffs) and enginepower (lot less of C4). But in both area's new homologations next year. And if they will bring some other top drivers into the team it would/could be the needed step.

[Finni]

If you guys look at the statistic orf Tommi's first Subaru year, you can see Petter was far from ridiculing him. Tommi won the first rally and was fast all the way to Argentina where he was really fighting with Marcus and then he took one corner wide and had that huge roll. After that roll he wasn't the same.

If my memory serves me at all Tommi was way off the pace compared to Petter already before argentina (france, catalunya and cyprus).

Argentina was rather an axception to overall trend. Tommi was competitive there also in 2003. Sainz was also competitive in Argentina. For some reason argentina was the rally where old guns were still able to deliver top-pace.

[Tom206wrc]

It looks like Brice Tirabassi is again candidate to drive one of the Subies next year ;)

[A.F.F.]

If my memory serves me at all Tommi was way off the pace compared to Petter already before argentina (france, catalunya and cyprus).


Simple. Your memory doesn't serve you at all.

[Daniel]

Carlos didn't do well? He finished 4th in his last full season and a close 3rd in his 2nd last season. Truly a good for nothing sick dog as NOT would say :laugh:

[Finni]

Simple. Your memory doesn't serve you at all.

Just check stage times and see the truth. Petter had strong upperhand in those rallies I mentioned.

[duff]

Simple. Your memory doesn't serve you at all.

Sorry A.F.F, Finni is right on this one. If you look at the 2002 Rallies stage by stage better had the upper hand in terms of speed a majority of the time.

Doesn't detract from his status as one of the true greats, most committed, and biggest talents ever in the sport. Anyone who would question this (I don't know why they would for a 4 time WRChampion) need just watch this footage

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=EMcjSiWP4Qw

[WRCfan]

Fantastic video that! The big sweeping left hander from New Zealand...amazing driving!

No one can take ANYTHING away from Tommi after a career such as the one he earned. End of story!

[duff]

If you look at the 2002 Rallies stage by stage better had the upper hand




Sorry, typo. Petter not better!

[A.F.F.]

No need to be sorry duff. I forgot with whom I was talking with. Finni is always right.

[Daniel]

:laugh: It's amazing how quickly people forget how it really went down isn't it? Simply because Tommi wasn't winning lots of rallies he was being ridiculed. Perhaps Tommi was just a very good second driver and drove well in support of Petter. Just as Carlos was a great support to sebastien. It seems if someone isn't winning ten rallies a year they're being ridiculed :mark: Tommi did well in his last few years in my opinion. Sure he didn't take any titles but only one person can be champion.

[duff]

:laugh: It's amazing how quickly people forget how it really went down isn't it? Simply because Tommi wasn't winning lots of rallies he was being ridiculed. Perhaps Tommi was just a very good second driver and drove well in support of Petter. Just as Carlos was a great support to sebastien. It seems if someone isn't winning ten rallies a year they're being ridiculed :mark: Tommi did well in his last few years in my opinion. Sure he didn't take any titles but only one person can be champion.

:rolleyes: OK Daniel...
As far as I can see there has only been one person who has been ridiculing Tommi on this thread (and lots of us have had our say on that character). The point of the previous number of posts was whether Petter was outpacing Tommi at Subaru or not.
But you have to think that a 4 times world champion wouldn't be expecting to change teams and then be pushed that hard by a youngster who hadn't won a rally yet.

Of course Tommi did well in his final years, but the score card in 2002/2003 can't have been to the standards that someone of his incredible competitive nature, and his amazing credentials, would have expected in a car that was half decent at the time. True there can only be one champion, but one win in his last two years when Petter won five surely can't be what a 24 times rally winner (and the most dominant driver of his generation) was hoping for when he signed the contract.

[Nenukknak]

I can't believe how people are sticking up for Tommi here. Tommi was great at Mitsubishi an aggressive driver who was virtually unbeatable at his peak. He went to Subaru to win rallies and become champion if possible, not to help Petter or for help in development as a testdriver. Everyone had high hopes and after he won the Monte with Subaru expectations were high. But it didn't happen Tommi failed due to himself and due to bad luck. After that crash in Argentina the Tommi as we knew him was gone.

His years at Subaru were rubbish, not for a run of the mill driver, but certainly for a 4xWC. Tommi was/is a great driver but I've always thought that his last years at Subaru were a sad and undeserving ending for such a great driver. But that's how it goes in motorsport, it takes a match between driver and vehicle, for years Tommi and the Lancer were that match. The Impreza and Tommi never became friends.

[WRCfan]

Totally agree with above post. Tommi and the Subaru never really got along as we all would have hoped! Interesting you mention after the big accident the Tommi we knew was gone and this is also very true...I never really thought of it that way but it is true.

[A.F.F.]

I disagree.

Look closely if you can all the statements Petter made during those couple of years Tommi spent at Subaru. Tommi's role as a mentor for Petter was undisputeble. So, hardly nothing sad there if he really trained Petter towards his peak.

Sad it would have been then if Tommi had accepted Subaru's contract and continued his career only base of cash.

[Nenukknak]

Two things they say about a driver when they are not performing:

1. His input in the development of the car is really valuable to the team.
2. He's a mentor/rolemodel to the youngsters.

Almost seems like pity talk to me. Keep Tommi out off the heat. I'm not saying Tommi wasn't valuable as a mentor to Petter, I'm sure he was, but that was not what Tommi was therefore. He was supposed to be the number one driver, expectations were higher (at least I hoped for more) and that's why I think it was a sad and undeserving two years.

[Nenukknak]

Always fun to see how a thread goes from one subject to the other. :D

[N.O.T]

and all of these strated by my amazing sense of humour which all of you agree its perfect...

wow...

[A.F.F.]

Two things they say about a driver when they are not performing:

1. His input in the development of the car is really valuable to the team.
2. He's a mentor/rolemodel to the youngsters.


There are three things to say about a driver when they are not performing but due the family perspective of this forum, I won't say the last one.

[Sulland]

Text originally from rally mag.de, but a interesting story !
Translated with babelfish, so do not kill the language...

Shortly after that the Subaru team Pro Drive announced, starting from 2009 with shock absorbers of the Swedish company Öhlins to the WRC, team head David Richard told that he will pull with substantial demands for payment of damages against its past partner BOS before court.
„There were by the dozen problems in quality, arrangements was not kept.
At the conclusion we waited, grumble the absorbers completely “ told the Englishman.
Since then the drivers complain regularly over chassis problems.
Pro drive drives for scarcely two years into the Rallye WRC with bad absorbers.
At the end of October are the first Öhlins absorbers at pro drive to be supplied. After it first tests with the new outfitter line up briefly.
Sweden, Öhlins is not in the Rallye an unknown quantity. They were in the late 90's as partners of Mitsubishi one of the guarantors for the four world champion titles of Tommi Mäkinen.

[Buzz Lightyear]

ok... i wonder is it also possible for swrt to sue itself ?!

[OldF]

I drive radio controlled cars, and that is exactly what it is. I know some of you might possibly think these are just toys, but have a look here on an approach to R/C suspension: http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/c2/index.htm (http://home.scarlet.be/%7Ebe067749/58/c2/index.htm)
This is the complete document: http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/ (http://home.scarlet.be/%7Ebe067749/58/)

This discussion is quite interesting :)

Thank you HaCo. It was worth reading.

I have a book discussing the same the same subject and I found one inconsistency regarding the anti-roll-bars.

The next is a part from chapter 2.7 (Ant-roll-bars)

“Suppose you add an anti-roll bar at the rear of your car without changing any of the other settings. When the car enters a turn, the chassis starts to roll. Normally, the suspension on the outside of the turn would compress, and the one on the inside would extend, making for a lot more pressure on the outside tire. With the anti-roll bar however, the suspension on the inside will be compressed, so the chassis will roll less, and the rear of the car will sit lower than normal. So the rear has more weight on it, and it's distributed more evenly over the two tires. This makes for a little more, and more consistent traction. Remember that this is in the beginning of the turn, the situation is different in the middle of the turn. Normally, without the anti-roll bar, the chassis would stop rolling when the roll torque is fully absorbed by the outside spring. But with the anti-roll bar, some of that torque is absorbed by the anti-roll bar, and used to compress the inside suspension. So the outside suspension won't be compressed as much as it normally would, making the rear of the chassis sit up higher than normal, so less weight is on the rear of the car, and more at on the front. It's as if suddenly the rear has become stiffer, making for more steering and a little less rear traction. Rear traction is more consistent however, because the weight is distributed more evenly over the rear tires, unless the track is really bumpy, that is; anti-roll bars can really mess up a car's rough track handling,

In the book I have the author writes “ However it’s a paradox that the anti-roll-bar transfers weight from the inside to the outside”

From an another forum I found this post:
http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/general-tech-tips-questions/4786-anti-roll-bars.html

I checked the info in a book on suspension design I've been reading, the book is "Designing and Building Special Cars" by Andre Jute, in the section on anti roll bars he says, "A roll bar fitted at the front transfers weight from the inside rear wheel to the outside front wheel and by increasing the slip angle at the front, creates or increases understeer."

So it’s 2-1 that an anti-roll-bar transfers weight from the inside to the outside.

As a sum up for the anti-roll-bars is making the front anti-roll-bar stiffer you get more understeer and making the rear anti-roll-bar stiffer you get more oversteer.

[Tomi]

Oh and the thing Pentti says about Subaru having the engine too far forward is made up for having the gearbox in the "middle" oposed to the other cars wich have it in the front. So the old man is mostly all c*** :)

ok kid, is subaru dead or not?? Next time you call the only guy on this forum who know something about how to drive a rallycar crap, think twice. :)

[Englandsfahrer]

Oh and the thing Pentti says about Subaru having the engine too far forward is made up for having the gearbox in the "middle" oposed to the other cars wich have it in the front. So the old man is mostly all c*** :)

ok kid, is subaru dead or not?? Next time you call the only guy on this forum who know something about how to drive a rallycar crap, think twice. :)

Good one... :D I suppose Subaru are quite dead at the moment.

Oh, and I completely forgot to comment on Subarunorways statement last time.. Never mind, might as well pick it apart now..

If the weight affects the axle somewhat like a door on a hinge, turning the Audi Quattro with everything in front is like opening a heavy door by twisting on the hinge.

Well, then I suppose turning the impreza's front end is like rotating a revolving door by the centre... There's still a lot of inertia because the weight sticks far out from the axle, to both front and back.

Turning the C4 with it's transverse engine and gearbox, where the weight is distributed in a within a close perimeter to the axle, should be like turning a ball from the centre. Quite a bit easier.

Think about ice skating: When the dancers pull their arms and legs closer, they spin faster. It's the same inertia, but with much more of a result, because the weight is centralized.

I'm aware an ice skater is only turning around one point, while a car is turning around several, even so, if one the points a car move around is affected by bad weight distribution, it still disturbs the cars overall turning point. No matter what excuse you use for moving the gearbox behind the axle, it's not a proper fix. It's more like dual layers of makeup on Madonna. When you look closely, you've still got a 50 year old hag...

[sal]

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/xmas08_sleigh.jpg

[SubaruNorway]

ok kid, is subaru dead or not?? Next time you call the only guy on this forum who know something about how to drive a rallycar crap, think twice. :)

I think you offended quite a few rally drivers on here with that one.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I think Makinen's last season's with Subaru weren't his best.... I think it was the wrong move. He should have retired with Mitsubishi rather than, again this has been said in the forums that he should have left at his peak or end of it. Loeb will come to this one day... just new talent are coming up and the old are moving on out :)

[Fischer]

I think Makinen's last season's with Subaru weren't his best.... I think it was the wrong move. He should have retired with Mitsubishi rather than, again this has been said in the forums that he should have left at his peak or end of it. Loeb will come to this one day... just new talent are coming up and the old are moving on out :)

Never underestimate the power of Loeb.

[Tomi]

I think Makinen's last season's with Subaru weren't his best.... I think it was the wrong move. He should have retired with Mitsubishi rather than, again this has been said in the forums that he should have left at his peak or end of it. Loeb will come to this one day... just new talent are coming up and the old are moving on out :)

If you look what Mäkinen is doing today, then you understand why he did move there, else he would have stopped right after the Mitsu.

[Buzz Lightyear]

If you look what Mäkinen is doing today, then you understand why he did move there, else he would have stopped right after the Mitsu. I'm am sure this was a consequense of this term at Subaru, not a condition.

[Tomi]

I'm am sure this was a consequense of this term at Subaru, not a condition.

Not condition but part of the agreement, as far as i know both Tommi and Mikko did their contract with Subaru, not prodrive.

[janvanvurpa]

If you look what Mäkinen is doing today, then you understand why he did move there, else he would have stopped right after the Mitsu.

Just what is Mäkinen doing today?

[Daniel]

Just what is Mäkinen doing today?

I heard he went out shopping.

[Tomi]

Just what is Mäkinen doing today?

He is supplier of subaru GrN rally cars.

http://www.tommimakinen.net/

[janvanvurpa]

I heard he went out shopping.

Last minute stuff, yeah I have to do some too.
And get to the machine shop to pick up a head for a wicked nasty Volvo rally motor I'm building.

And we have 10" snow on the ground. Ho Ho ho.

[A.F.F.]

It wouldn't be all to impossible that should Subaru return to rallying, they'd continue their journey with Tommi Mäkinen Racing rather than Prodrive.

[Bazza2541]

I think that Pentti was correct.
And that Subaru like Audi will not ever be back in top-flight rallying. And for similar reasons.

[Tomi]

It wouldn't be all to impossible that should Subaru return to rallying, they'd continue their journey with Tommi Mäkinen Racing rather than Prodrive.
Same here, he is building new and bigger facilitates now.