I feel sorry for Felipe Massa...

[woody2goody]

...but not in the way you might expect.

Felipe Massa is a driver who consistently shows us two sides of his driving ability.

The first (good) side is the one that dominated Valencia, gets lots of pole positions, wins races from the front, and up to now has won the most races in the season with 5.

The second (bad) side of him, is a whiner (Nurburgring 07), hopeless in the wet (Silverstone 08), seemingly incapable of fighting through the field (Hungary 07, Singapore) and, like his friend Michael Schumacher, also seems incapable of admitting his mistakes (Fuji 08).

Now, I liked Michael Schumacher, and I was starting to like Massa this year, but his behaviour and attitude this season has been quite poor.

But, back to the title of this thread, and I feel sorry for him, because this will probably be his best chance of winning the World's Championship, and, if he does, will be remembered not for his 5 or more wins, or his brilliance from pole position, but as the guy who was awarded his championship in the stewards' office.

Hamilton's Belgium penalty being revoked would have meant the gap would be 88-77 in favour of Hamilton, and give Hamilton possibly 4 or 5 points at Fuji, and Massa the same I reckon, and there would be (probably) a 10-12 point gap with just 2 rounds to go, an almost unassailable advantage for Hamilton.

Yes, I do think Hamilton deserves the drivers' championship this year. And that isn't the reason why I am having a go at Massa. It's because the powers that be are trying to hand him the title. If Hamilton or Kubica wins the championship it will foil this pitiful attempt at keeping the Tifosi happy.

[Big Ben]

I don't. After his poor start he proved that he is a capable driver, that he is a hard working man and that he is able to adapt. LH's stupid behavior is not his fault. Even McLaren doubted LH's moves and the fact that they keep reassuring everybody that they support his approach proves that they have their own doubts. every week appears a " X supports Hamilton's approach" article but this is normal.. his approach is most doubted out there. Why is that? Perhaps because Britain's new hero didn't prove so far to be too smart.

in just two years he:
-had brought his team under investigation in Monaco when FA clearly destroyed him the whole weekend.
-started the scandal in Hungary when he refused to let FA do his extra lap
-made a fool out of himself abandoning on the pit lane in China
-lost his temper and the title just because FA overtook him at start... although he had the entire race ahead of him, the team on his side, and he was in a position that would have brought him enough points to win the WDC
-he cut the chicane in Belgium and then pretended to give it back just to overtake again a second later
-lost his temper again when overtaken at start in Japan bla bla bla...

Conclusion: he lost a 17 points lead and the first serious chance to win a title for McLaren in 8 years (or something like that)
He is struggling to win this year's title in probably the best car and against a driver that started he's season in his third races, that would settle with 1 or 2 points in the rain and that has problems when not starting from pole.

FA would have won the title last year and would have won this one too... by
now probably. So before finding excuses for a possible future failure please take a look at your hero. he's not doing a good job. He lost on his own a year ago and he is just 5 points ahead of Massa because of his silly behavior.
FM knows that he's not good in the rain, knows that he needs to get the pole to win a race and acts accordingly. LH thinks he is driving with his huge balls and does the same.. yeah, sure FIA's fault all the way

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe you could spare a thought and feel just a tad sorry for ant? Thanks!!

[ioan]

I don't. After his poor start he proved that he is a capable driver, that he is a hard working man and that he is able to adapt. LH's stupid behavior is not his fault. Even McLaren doubted LH's moves and the fact that they keep reassuring everybody that they support his approach proves that they have their own doubts. every week appears a " X supports Hamilton's approach" article but this is normal.. his approach is most doubted out there. Why is that? Perhaps because Britain's new hero didn't prove so far to be too smart.

in just two years he:
-had brought his team under investigation in Monaco when FA clearly destroyed him the whole weekend.
-started the scandal in Hungary when he refused to let FA do his extra lap
-made a fool out of himself abandoning on the pit lane in China
-lost his temper and the title just because FA overtook him at start... although he had the entire race ahead of him, the team on his side, and he was in a position that would have brought him enough points to win the WDC
-he cut the chicane in Belgium and then pretended to give it back just to overtake again a second later
-lost his temper again when overtaken at start in Japan bla bla bla...

Conclusion: he lost a 17 points lead and the first serious chance to win a title for McLaren in 8 years (or something like that)
He is struggling to win this year's title in probably the best car and against a driver that started he's season in his third races, that would settle with 1 or 2 points in the rain and that has problems when not starting from pole.

FA would have won the title last year and would have won this one too... by
now probably. So before finding excuses for a possible future failure please take a look at your hero. he's not doing a good job. He lost on his own a year ago and he is just 5 points ahead of Massa because of his silly behavior.
FM knows that he's not good in the rain, knows that he needs to get the pole to win a race and acts accordingly. LH thinks he is driving with his huge balls and does the same.. yeah, sure FIA's fault all the way

Agree! :up:

[F1boat]

Maybe you could spare a thought and feel just a tad sorry for ant? Thanks!!

Valve again showed wisdom worthy of Solomon ;)

However, I agree with eu and ioan. Massa was wonderful this season and is every bit as deserving a champion as Hamilton or Kubica. Hamilton is ruthless and arrogant and got the penalties and the accidents he deserved. However, he also won a magnifecent victories in Monte Carlo and Silverstone, so he will be worthy as well - I am not blind to his qualities.
It will be nice if you can respect Massa's achievements as well. He had brilliant moments this year. We are lucky to have, for a second year in a row, such tremendous fight for the WDC and the WCC. Scandals are inevitable - the stakes are very high.
So quit b***ing.

[pino]

If Massa win the title, it will be a very deserved win...period.

[Storm]

I got tired of reading the opening post......all of those points are being discussed in many threads.

eu got quite a few points right in his post though.

As for Valve....why do you want me to feel sorry for Ant?
does he have same problems like I do (not being able to watch India V Australia test series on my dish or non British clubs in CL? :p : )

[555-04Q2]

stupid thread :down:

[Knock-on]

stupid thread :down:


:laugh:

As per normal, a thread starts and quickly degenerates to Lewis bashing. This time it was post number 2 :D

[BTCC2]

ask yourself why

[Rollo]

Maybe you could spare a thought and feel just a tad sorry for ant? Thanks!!

Thanks ant... Thants! :D

http://www.gunsha.co.uk/images/thants.jpg

[F1boat]

:laugh:

As per normal, a thread starts and quickly degenerates to Lewis bashing. This time it was post number 2 :D

Well, it started as a Massa-bashing.

[leopard]

stupid thread :down:
sarcasm,


But, back to the title of this thread, and I feel sorry for him, because this will probably be his best chance of winning the World's Championship, and, if he does, will be remembered not for his 5 or more wins, or his brilliance from pole position, but as the guy who was awarded his championship in the stewards' office.
I think the opposite, he was even penalized for team's fault, if he finally wins history will remember that F1 has a new winner emerged from stewards' book entitled Target of Penalty.

[ioan]

Well, it started as a Massa-bashing.

Yeah, and Knockie is just sore that he couldn't continue in that direction! :D

[janneppi]

Well, it started as a Massa-bashing.
Actually, it started as mention good things about Massa, but that's irrelevant, right? ;)

[Storm]

You mean bashing thinly disguised by "lets get the well done thing out of the way" :p :

[Valve Bounce]

As for Valve....why do you want me to feel sorry for Ant?
does he have same problems like I do (not being able to watch India V Australia test series on my dish or non British clubs in CL? :p : )

I don't! my response was directed at another forum member who had a specific point to make.

If you can't watch the Australia vs India series, then talk to your service provider. You want us to feel sorry for you? :rolleyes:

[Corny]

...but not in the way you might expect.

Felipe Massa is a driver who consistently shows us two sides of his driving ability.

The first (good) side is the one that dominated Valencia, gets lots of pole positions, wins races from the front, and up to now has won the most races in the season with 5.

The second (bad) side of him, is a whiner (Nurburgring 07), hopeless in the wet (Silverstone 08), seemingly incapable of fighting through the field (Hungary 07, Singapore) and, like his friend Michael Schumacher, also seems incapable of admitting his mistakes (Fuji 08).

Now, I liked Michael Schumacher, and I was starting to like Massa this year, but his behaviour and attitude this season has been quite poor.

But, back to the title of this thread, and I feel sorry for him, because this will probably be his best chance of winning the World's Championship, and, if he does, will be remembered not for his 5 or more wins, or his brilliance from pole position, but as the guy who was awarded his championship in the stewards' office.

Hamilton's Belgium penalty being revoked would have meant the gap would be 88-77 in favour of Hamilton, and give Hamilton possibly 4 or 5 points at Fuji, and Massa the same I reckon, and there would be (probably) a 10-12 point gap with just 2 rounds to go, an almost unassailable advantage for Hamilton.

Yes, I do think Hamilton deserves the drivers' championship this year. And that isn't the reason why I am having a go at Massa. It's because the powers that be are trying to hand him the title. If Hamilton or Kubica wins the championship it will foil this pitiful attempt at keeping the Tifosi happy.

You are British, right? I think we can't explain this thread better

[Big Ben]

I'm not bashing lewis. I can be objective. He has many strong points. He learns quickly for example. He stated that he has learnt it's better to avoid gravel traps in China. :laugh: . Soon enough he'll figure out that it's better to avoid them just about anywhere :laugh: .

[truefan72]

sadly this thread as many around here get's hijacked and destroyed before any real dialogue can begin. oh well...

[truefan72]

I'm not bashing lewis. I can be objective. He has many strong points. He learns quickly for example. He stated that he has learnt it's better to avoid gravel traps in China. :laugh: . Soon enough he'll figure out that it's better to avoid them just about anywhere :laugh: .

its funny how leading the world championship in the first two years of one's F1 career going into the penultimate race, rewriting the history books with every win and point scored, and arguably being one of the top 3 drivers in the series is akin to being pretty much a simpleton in some people's books.
At the end of the day, the laugh's pretty much on you. LOL

[Big Ben]

its funny how leading the world championship in the first two years of one's F1 career going into the penultimate race, rewriting the history books with every win and point scored, and arguably being one of the top 3 drivers in the series is akin to being pretty much a simpleton in some people's books.
At the end of the day, the laugh's pretty much on you. LOL

You write as if you had any idea who you are talking to :laugh:

[truefan72]

You write as if you had any idea who you are talking to :laugh:

somebody, one of countless thousands, on an F1 forum
nothing more than duh! :eek:

[zilly]

I feel sorry for all you F1 fans (to me it’s just something to watch on TV on a Sunday afternoon, although I do know what a blue flag means). All credibility has gone and until everyone works together to sort it out F1 will continue it’s decline & total collapse is not far away. Winning the last year or two of the F1 championships by blatantly ridiculous stewards decisions won’t be much comfort to Ferrari fans when there is no more F1.

[Big Ben]

somebody, one of countless thousands, on an F1 forum
nothing more than duh! :eek:

I have no problem with that.

[F1boat]

rewriting the history books with every win and point scored

That's a bit infair on JV.

[woody2goody]

You are British, right? I think we can't explain this thread better

Oh here, we go, the 'he's british so he must love Lewis and hate everyone else' point. I'm sick of people assuming British people are McLaren fans thus hate Ferrari. It's utter childish rubbish. Lewis isn't even my favourite driver. In fact my true favourites are Fisichella, Button, Kubica, Heidfeld and Trulli.

Ok, i'll explain myself properly. The point i was trying to make (not too successfully I might add ;) ) was that I will genuinely feel sorry for Massa if he wins under controversy. Whoever wins the championship will deserve it because they will have got the most points. But in my opinion Hamilton and Kubica would deserve it MORE.

I admire Massa's improvement over the last couple of years, and he may have still ended up claiming the title without the penalties, but all I'm saying is the penalties will put his victory (if he does it) under a cloud for me and possibly quite a few others too. However if he goes out and wins the last two races fair and square and wins the title I will be happy for him, as he is a very good driver.

Yes, I'm aware Lewis isn't an angel, but at least he races to the end. A couple of years ago Fernando Alonso was criticized by some for being consistent and collecting second and third places with a big championship lead, but now we have Hamilton wanting to win every race, he gets criticized for his approach.

We can have a discussion about Massa and his merits without descending into bashing Hamilton, McLaren or whoever. And no I'm not a McLaren fan before anyone asks.

[woody2goody]

You are British, right? I think we can't explain this thread better

Oh here, we go, the 'he's british so he must love Lewis and hate everyone else' point. I'm sick of people assuming British people are McLaren fans thus hate Ferrari. It's utter childish rubbish. Lewis isn't even my favourite driver. In fact my true favourites are Fisichella, Button, Kubica, Heidfeld and Trulli.

Ok, i'll explain myself properly. The point i was trying to make (not too successfully I might add ;) ) was that I will genuinely feel sorry for Massa if he wins under controversy. Whoever wins the championship will deserve it because they will have got the most points. But in my opinion Hamilton and Kubica would deserve it MORE.

I admire Massa's improvement over the last couple of years, and he may have still ended up claiming the title without the penalties, but all I'm saying is the penalties will put his victory (if he does it) under a cloud for me and possibly quite a few others too. However if he goes out and wins the last two races fair and square and wins the title I will be happy for him, as he is a very good driver.

Yes, I'm aware Lewis isn't an angel, but at least he races to the end. A couple of years ago Fernando Alonso was criticized by some for being consistent and collecting second and third places with a big championship lead, but now we have Hamilton wanting to win every race, he gets criticized for his approach.

We can have a discussion about Massa and his merits without descending into bashing Hamilton, McLaren or whoever. And no I'm not a McLaren fan before anyone asks.

Oh, and Anthony Davidson should be given another chance in 2009.

[woody2goody]

Sorry for the double post :)

Yes, I'm aware Lewis isn't an angel, but at least he races to the end. A couple of years ago Fernando Alonso was criticized by some for being consistent and collecting second and third places with a big championship lead, but now we have Hamilton wanting to win every race, he gets criticized for his approach.

Not by the same people though, surely?

[woody2goody]

Not by the same people though, surely?

Not necessarily, but I know some columnists and commentators were saying Alonso was being negative at the time (even though he had the slower car). And a lot of the media feeling now in Britain is that Hamilton should be going for second or third places. His lead in the championship isn't big enough to do that and I think he was right to try to win in Japan, and the way he tried to go about it.

I'm going by general feeling in 05/06 and now really.

I don't want to be seen as Massa bashing, because I don't dislike any of the drivers, and I apologise if anyone took my comments the wrong way. I'll choose my words better in future.

[wedge]

IMHO:

I've turned from Massa basher to admirer.

Massa had every right to attempt to overtake Hamilton but s**t happens and that's racing, you win some and lose some but by no means was that ruthless and deliberate.

Should Massa apologise? No. Massa thrives on confidence, needs to be focused on his WDC aspirations and so an apology is like a chink in the armour. Massa isn't in F1 to make friends, he's there to win.

Some will say he's ruthless as Schumi, I'd say he's grown some balls and shows guts and determination - the character to be WDC.

[Bagwan]

I met Felipe in '04 , at the Montreal GP , at a schmoozy cocktail party , and he seemed a meek little man , uncomfortable outside the driver's seat in the spotlight .
I sensed he was a tiger beneath .

He seemed to have the same character as a number of my friends , light-hearted normally , but explosive upon the moment things went awry .
These are my friends from places like the Basque country , Spain and Equador .

Felipe , in my opinion , was always a good driver , but has learned to cool his temper to a degree that has him make fewer mistakes . It still gets him in trouble at times , but that has been the most major improvement in his race craft .

You can see it in his face during interviews . He wears his mood more than anyone else in the paddock at present .


I think every year , whether there are penalties or not , there is usually enough controversy during the year that it enables the devoted fan of one team or another to show contempt for the winner and the authorities that gave him the trophy .
If Lewis wins , the Tifosi will cry that Lewis is dangerous , and if Ferrari wins the Macs will cry that he was penalized too much .

It's the same every year .

I do think it's too bad the (insert unhappy group here) won't respect (insert winner here) .
It makes me sad .

Either way .

[ioan]

IMHO:

I've turned from Massa basher to admirer.

Massa had every right to attempt to overtake Hamilton but s**t happens and that's racing, you win some and lose some but by no means was that ruthless and deliberate.

Should Massa apologise? No. Massa thrives on confidence, needs to be focused on his WDC aspirations and so an apology is like a chink in the armour. Massa isn't in F1 to make friends, he's there to win.

Some will say he's ruthless as Schumi, I'd say he's grown some balls and shows guts and determination - the character to be WDC.

I can only agree with you on this, objective, post.

[ioan]

I met Felipe in '04 , at the Montreal GP , at a schmoozy cocktail party , and he seemed a meek little man , uncomfortable outside the driver's seat in the spotlight .
I sensed he was a tiger beneath .

He seemed to have the same character as a number of my friends , light-hearted normally , but explosive upon the moment things went awry .
These are my friends from places like the Basque country , Spain and Equador .

Felipe , in my opinion , was always a good driver , but has learned to cool his temper to a degree that has him make fewer mistakes . It still gets him in trouble at times , but that has been the most major improvement in his race craft .

You can see it in his face during interviews . He wears his mood more than anyone else in the paddock at present .


I think every year , whether there are penalties or not , there is usually enough controversy during the year that it enables the devoted fan of one team or another to show contempt for the winner and the authorities that gave him the trophy .
If Lewis wins , the Tifosi will cry that Lewis is dangerous , and if Ferrari wins the Macs will cry that he was penalized too much .

It's the same every year .

I do think it's too bad the (insert unhappy group here) won't respect (insert winner here) .
It makes me sad .

Either way .

I wish I could be so eloquent and objective. Cheers!

[truefan72]

That's a bit infair on JV.

not really, JV was equally has spectacular in his first two years. And if LH doesn't win the WCC this year, I will still feel JV's first two years were more successful. I was/am a JV fan and wished he had ended up with a better career :)

[woody2goody]

not really, JV was equally has spectacular in his first two years. And if LH doesn't win the WCC this year, I will still feel JV's first two years were more successful. I was/am a JV fan and wished he had ended up with a better career :)

Me too, but at the end of the day it was his own fault and that could be the single most infuriating thing since I've been watching F1. He could have probably won 2 or 3 titles, and won 20-30 GPs but was misguided after '98 in my opinion.

He was unfairly booted out of BMW, but since it was Kubica that replaced him you can't feel too bad about the decision. It would have been great last year and maybe this one to see JV fighting for the podium on a regular basis again.

[Tazio]

Back on Topic.
Anyone who feels sorry for Massa has been hanging around the Kool-aid cooler too long! :beer:

The The folowing is part of FM's agenda between races!

"I left Fuji on Sunday night a few hours after the race and came to Tokyo. I usually try and spend some time in Tokyo which I think is a fascinating city. I love it. It's a nice place to be and although it is similar in some ways to other large cities like New York or maybe even Sao Paolo, it is also very unique and different; certainly less chaotic than my home city! There are plenty of places to visit, the hotels are good and the choice of restaurants is amazing. I have my wife and some of my family with me, so shopping has also been on the agenda and I think my credit cards must be on fire at the moment!
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=311568

Poor little guy!

A dose of reality anyone?
Ciao :beer:

[ShiftingGears]

Me too, but at the end of the day it was his own fault and that could be the single most infuriating thing since I've been watching F1. He could have probably won 2 or 3 titles, and won 20-30 GPs but was misguided after '98 in my opinion.

I really don't think JV was anything special. There are many drivers on the grid who could (and did) beat him.

[F1boat]

I really don't think JV was anything special. There are many drivers on the grid who could (and did) beat him.

I think that he is a very good driver, but not great. However, I am happy that he won a LMS race this season.

[woody2goody]

Back on Topic.
Anyone who feels sorry for Massa has been hanging around the Kool-aid cooler too long! :beer:

The The folowing is part of FM's agenda between races!

"I left Fuji on Sunday night a few hours after the race and came to Tokyo. I usually try and spend some time in Tokyo which I think is a fascinating city. I love it. It's a nice place to be and although it is similar in some ways to other large cities like New York or maybe even Sao Paolo, it is also very unique and different; certainly less chaotic than my home city! There are plenty of places to visit, the hotels are good and the choice of restaurants is amazing. I have my wife and some of my family with me, so shopping has also been on the agenda and I think my credit cards must be on fire at the moment!
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=311568

Poor little guy!

A dose of reality anyone?
Ciao :beer:

Mmm... Koolaid :beer:

The thing is i don't mind the guy it's just he's been dragged into the win at all costs mentality at Ferrari which doesn't suit him. I reckon he could afford the credit card bills though :)

I'm a bit gutted because I won't see the race on Sunday :( Would be great to see Lewis, Felipe and Robert fighting it out again.

[Tazio]

Mmm... Koolaid :beer:

The thing is i don't mind the guy it's just he's been dragged into the win at all costs mentality at Ferrari which doesn't suit him. I reckon he could afford the credit card bills though :)

I'm a bit gutted because I won't see the race on Sunday :( Would be great to see Lewis, Felipe and Robert fighting it out again.

Cheers Woodman!
I couldn't help having a go at the dichotomy of perspective!

BTW just do what I've had to do on occasion!
Record the blinking race, and watch it at your next available opportunity ;)

[wedge]

The thing is i don't mind the guy it's just he's been dragged into the win at all costs mentality at Ferrari which doesn't suit him. I reckon he could afford the credit card bills though :)

If you're fighting for WDC then acting like a pussycat isn't exactly the right mentality.

Nice guys finish last. The majority of WDCs had a ruthless/selfish streak of somekind.

[woody2goody]

Cheers Woodman!
I couldn't help having a go at the dichotomy of perspective!

BTW just do what I've had to do on occasion!
Record the blinking race, and watch it at your next available opportunity ;)

I was lucky in the end I got up early and was able to watch it at my girlfriend's house.

it was a strange podium at Shanghai. Hamilton wasn't quite as happy as maybe he should have been, Raikkonen looked furious and Massa was nearly crying. Amazing range of emotions between the three of them.

Hamilton should take the title now, but we all know how good Massa is at his home Grand Prix. I reckon he will win with Kimi or Fernando 2nd/3rd. Lewis will probably drive a conservative race and stroll in infront of Heikki and the BMWs.

[jas123f1]

...but not in the way you might expect.

Felipe Massa is a driver who consistently shows us two sides of his driving ability.

The first (good) side is the one that dominated Valencia, gets lots of pole positions, wins races from the front, and up to now has won the most races in the season with 5.

The second (bad) side of him, is a whiner (Nurburgring 07), hopeless in the wet (Silverstone 08), seemingly incapable of fighting through the field (Hungary 07, Singapore) and, like his friend Michael Schumacher, also seems incapable of admitting his mistakes (Fuji 08).

Now, I liked Michael Schumacher, and I was starting to like Massa this year, but his behaviour and attitude this season has been quite poor.

But, back to the title of this thread, and I feel sorry for him, because this will probably be his best chance of winning the World's Championship, and, if he does, will be remembered not for his 5 or more wins, or his brilliance from pole position, but as the guy who was awarded his championship in the stewards' office.

Hamilton's Belgium penalty being revoked would have meant the gap would be 88-77 in favour of Hamilton, and give Hamilton possibly 4 or 5 points at Fuji, and Massa the same I reckon, and there would be (probably) a 10-12 point gap with just 2 rounds to go, an almost unassailable advantage for Hamilton.

Yes, I do think Hamilton deserves the drivers' championship this year. And that isn't the reason why I am having a go at Massa. It's because the powers that be are trying to hand him the title. If Hamilton or Kubica wins the championship it will foil this pitiful attempt at keeping the Tifosi happy.

Don't feel sorry - :)
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings .. the Formula One season is not over yet.. :) there is one very important race left - and as every one knows: everything can happen in Formula one - and usually it does..

You can see it an other way too - Massa take 10 points and forced to get points - if he get any problems - he will over react and then now one knows what happen.. :)

[jas123f1]

Don't feel sorry - :)
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings .. the Formula One season is not over yet.. :) there is one very important race left - and as every one knows: everything can happen in Formula one - and usually it does..

You can see it an other way too - Massa take 10 points and forced to get points - if he get any problems - he will over react and then now one knows what happen..

It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings .. the Formula One season is not over yet.. :) there is one very important race left - and as every one knows: everything can happen in Formula one - and usually it does..

You can see it an other way too - Massa take 10 points and LEWIS IS forced to get points - if he get any problems - he will over react and then - now one knows what happen..

Sorry - i have too many people around me speaking and i didn't wrote that i was speaking about LEWIS.. (It’s probably true what my wife says - a man can concentrate to only to one thing a time.. :)

[wmcot]

Funny that we are at the exact point that we were last season (7 points in the WDC) but I don't remember any "I feel sorry for Kimi" posts.

BTW - I have seen Massa change and grow tremendously through hard work from his first drives with Sauber. At the USGP in 2004, Matt Bishop was referring to FM as the guy who would be driving a taxi in 2005 - good call again, Bish! :)

[Valve Bounce]

IMHO:

I've turned from Massa basher to admirer.

Massa had every right to attempt to overtake Hamilton but s**t happens and that's racing, you win some and lose some but by no means was that ruthless and deliberate.

Should Massa apologise? No. Massa thrives on confidence, needs to be focused on his WDC aspirations and so an apology is like a chink in the armour. Massa isn't in F1 to make friends, he's there to win.

Some will say he's ruthless as Schumi, I'd say he's grown some balls and shows guts and determination - the character to be WDC.

Actually, I'd like to comment on that incident. Massa had his wheels on the grass and came back onto the track over the curb. I felt that what happened afterwards was out of his control - it would have been very difficult for him to deliberately do anything other than hope his car got back onto the track safely. He hit Lewis Hamilton in the process and he received a drive through penalty.

I think that's the just outcome.

[Tazio]

Funny that we are at the exact point that we were last season (7 points in the WDC) but I don't remember any "I feel sorry for Kimi" posts.
Last season Fred took the bullet for Kimi :eek:
That's because RD (McLaren) and LH were racing against Fred :beer:
:rotflmao:

[cosmicpanda]

IMHO:

I've turned from Massa basher to admirer.

Massa had every right to attempt to overtake Hamilton but s**t happens and that's racing, you win some and lose some but by no means was that ruthless and deliberate.

Should Massa apologise? No. Massa thrives on confidence, needs to be focused on his WDC aspirations and so an apology is like a chink in the armour. Massa isn't in F1 to make friends, he's there to win.

Some will say he's ruthless as Schumi, I'd say he's grown some balls and shows guts and determination - the character to be WDC.

And when Lewis does similar things he's just an arrogant prick?

[Tazio]

And when Lewis does similar things he's just an arrogant prick?As an F1 pilot Lewis has gotten every single thing he’s earned, or deserves.
I won't comment on his character or personality, because I am not personally aquatinted with the man!

[Valve Bounce]

As an F1 pilot Lewis has gotten every single thing he’s earned, or deserves.
I won't comment on his character or personality, because I am not personally aquatinted with the man!

I feel the same - totally neutral about the guy. I concede that he is a very fast driver, and could even be one of the fastest on the track. Many of his non-wins come from silly/stupid mistakes, but he is young and will improve. If he wins the championship, then good on him. If he doesn't (apart from mechanical failure) and it comes from a silly mistake, then he is the one to suffer the slings and jibes. Too Bad!!

And one last word here: he is a helluva lot better driver than his team mate this year.

Sorry for stealing the thunder for Felipe's thread, but I see absolutely no reason to feel sorry for him, and if he is beaten by Lewis, it can easily be explained that he has been beaten by a faster driver. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[Knock-on]

Actually, I'd like to comment on that incident. Massa had his wheels on the grass and came back onto the track over the curb. I felt that what happened afterwards was out of his control - it would have been very difficult for him to deliberately do anything other than hope his car got back onto the track safely. He hit Lewis Hamilton in the process and he received a drive through penalty.

I think that's the just outcome.

No doubt, Massa made a mistake, T Boned his fellow title contender and although he was penalised, still eneded up benefitting from his mistake.

Is that right?

Would it not be more fair, more just, that if he made a mistake and ruined his rivals race, that he should receive no points and a penalty for the next race.

Shouldn't you be penalised for this sort of situation and not benefitted?

I don't really have any sympathy.

[Valve Bounce]

No doubt, Massa made a mistake, T Boned his fellow title contender and although he was penalised, still eneded up benefitting from his mistake.

Is that right?

Would it not be more fair, more just, that if he made a mistake and ruined his rivals race, that he should receive no points and a penalty for the next race.

Shouldn't you be penalised for this sort of situation and not benefitted?

I don't really have any sympathy.

I think drivers are penalised, during the race, for the transgression, and not for any eventual outcome.

[F1boat]

I think drivers are penalised, during the race, for the transgression, and not for any eventual outcome.

Well said. I know that LH fans are eager for his championship, but they should wait for about two weeks more and not constantly talking about what ifs.

[Knock-on]

I think drivers are penalised, during the race, for the transgression, and not for any eventual outcome.

OK, here are 5 examples of driver error that were investigated.

1. Driver error results in crashing into driver infront taking both out of the race
2. Driver error by title contender into close rival results in crashing into driver infront taking both out of the race
3. Driver error by title contender into close rival results in crashing into driver infront effectively taking that driver out but allowing the transgressor to benefit
4. Driver collides with another driver on a corner. Both continue with the transgressor finishing behind the victim
5. Driver cuts chicane to avoid penalty and gives the place he gained back

1. Is Kimi into Sutil - No penalty - racing incident, Correct decision
2. Hammy into Kimi - Both taken out and Lewis penalised next race - Correct decision
3. Massa into Lewis - Lewis effectively taken out allowing Massa to score 1 point - Victim is penalised and transgressor benefits. Not the right decision
4. Massa into Seb - Victim penalised benefiting Massa by a further point - The craziest decision for many a year.
5. Lewis avoiding Kimi - Lewis penalised benefiting Massa by further points which would have put the championship out of contention.

There are a few facts we can observe in this.

1. The first 2 instances were dealt with correctly and were fair.
2. The 3rd resulted in the offender benefiting
4. the last were very contentious and the majority of people believe them to be wrong.
5. These contentious penalties have ensured that Massa is still in the championship.

Sorry for Massa? He shouldn't still be in the hunt!

[F1boat]

4. the last were very contentious and the majority of people believe them to be wrong.


Replace "people" with "British fans".

[kalasend]

Oh, and Anthony Davidson should be given another chance in 2009.

No, he shouldn't. He's British, he's supposed to beat a Japanese driving the same car hands down. But he couldn't. IMO, Ant shouldn't even dream of another chance until Sato has a seat.

[wedge]

OK, here are 5 examples of driver error that were investigated.

1. Driver error results in crashing into driver infront taking both out of the race
2. Driver error by title contender into close rival results in crashing into driver infront taking both out of the race
3. Driver error by title contender into close rival results in crashing into driver infront effectively taking that driver out but allowing the transgressor to benefit
4. Driver collides with another driver on a corner. Both continue with the transgressor finishing behind the victim
5. Driver cuts chicane to avoid penalty and gives the place he gained back

1. Is Kimi into Sutil - No penalty - racing incident, Correct decision
2. Hammy into Kimi - Both taken out and Lewis penalised next race - Correct decision
3. Massa into Lewis - Lewis effectively taken out allowing Massa to score 1 point - Victim is penalised and transgressor benefits. Not the right decision
4. Massa into Seb - Victim penalised benefiting Massa by a further point - The craziest decision for many a year.
5. Lewis avoiding Kimi - Lewis penalised benefiting Massa by further points which would have put the championship out of contention.

There are a few facts we can observe in this.

1. The first 2 instances were dealt with correctly and were fair.
2. The 3rd resulted in the offender benefiting
4. the last were very contentious and the majority of people believe them to be wrong.
5. These contentious penalties have ensured that Massa is still in the championship.

Sorry for Massa? He shouldn't still be in the hunt!

Knock-on,

s**t happens - Rosberg getting a 10s penalty in Singapore and still manages to finish on the podium being another case in point.

[kalasend]

The first (good) side is the one that dominated Valencia, gets lots of pole positions, wins races from the front, and up to now has won the most races in the season with 5.

The second (bad) side of him, is a whiner (Nurburgring 07), hopeless in the wet (Silverstone 08), seemingly incapable of fighting through the field (Hungary 07, Singapore) and, like his friend Michael Schumacher, also seems incapable of admitting his mistakes (Fuji 08).


Your logic is flawed. If you weight both Massa's goods and bads equal, and that you don't have any personal likes/dislikes, you wouldn't have started this thread at all.

All you're saying is essentially Massa does not merit champion. Which is simply not true by all accounts. All Massa has done through out the season is put his head down and drive as fast as he can. He's able to extend the fight to this point of the season, despite the many problems his team has given him.

F1 rules say that the driver who scores the most takes the championship, not the one who is conceived deserved by most.

[Knock-on]

Replace "people" with "British fans".

I'd rather not :)

The last poll we had on the subject (Massa / Bourdais) ended up approximatly 95% against the FIA's penalty.

This is a pretty cosmopolitan forum and some of the "Brits" aren't Lewis fans believe it or not ;)

I would also suggest the more than 1 in 20 people on here are non British?

Hell, I can think of at least 5!! :D

[F1boat]

Forum polls are forum polls, that's all. You need to make a poll is various sites, English, Spanish, Italian, then see the results.

[Valve Bounce]

3. Massa into Lewis - Lewis effectively taken out allowing Massa to score 1 point - Victim is penalised and transgressor benefits. Not the right decision



Hang on a sec: I thought Massa was penalised with a drive through :confused: I didn't know Lewis was penalised!
..................and
..................didn't Massa score 2 points?

You have me bamboozled here Knockie!!

[Valve Bounce]

Forum polls are forum polls, that's all. You need to make a poll is various sites, English, Spanish, Italian, then see the results.

To do that, wouldn't one have to be able to understand English, Spanish and Italian?

Then what about the French sites? I can comprend some French, mais oui!!

[F1boat]

That's what I mean. One poll can not be conclusive and global survey about every single penalty will be weird.

[Knock-on]

Hang on a sec: I thought Massa was penalised with a drive through :confused: I didn't know Lewis was penalised!
..................and
..................didn't Massa score 2 points?

You have me bamboozled here Knockie!!

It's easy Valve old fruit.

Massa hits Lewis who was in front and as a consequence, Lewis is punted to the back of the field.

Massa goes on to score a point at the end and the person he took out scores zip.

You he was penalised with a drive through but the reality of the situation is that he closed the lead on Lewis by punting him off.

Then we have Massa hitting Seb and gaining the 2nd point you mentioned because Seb was penalised after the race promoting Massa yet again for hitting a competitor in the race.

Clearer?

[ioan]

It's easy Valve old fruit.

Massa hits Lewis who was in front and as a consequence, Lewis is punted to the back of the field.

Massa goes on to score a point at the end and the person he took out scores zip.

You he was penalised with a drive through but the reality of the situation is that he closed the lead on Lewis by punting him off.

Then we have Massa hitting Seb and gaining the 2nd point you mentioned because Seb was penalised after the race promoting Massa yet again for hitting a competitor in the race.

Clearer?

I like this Massa guy, he seems to be very smart, according to your story he can gain an advantage from any minor touch even if he is penalized for it or if he spins out as a consequence.
He's way better than MS used to be! :D

[Tazio]

Your logic is flawed. If you weight both Massa's goods and bads equal, and that you don't have any personal likes/dislikes, you wouldn't have started this thread at all.

All you're saying is essentially Massa does not merit champion. Which is simply not true by all accounts. All Massa has done through out the season is put his head down and drive as fast as he can. He's able to extend the fight to this point of the season, despite the many problems his team has given him.

F1 rules say that the driver who scores the most takes the championship, not the one who is conceived deserved by most.From your lips to Gods ears :)
Amen brother.

[Knock-on]

I like this Massa guy, he seems to be very smart, according to your story he can gain an advantage from any minor touch even if he is penalized for it or if he spins out as a consequence.
He's way better than MS used to be! :D

:laugh:

I'm not having a go at Massa and have never accused him of anything like that. In fact, I'm on record as saying I like the chap.

It's just that bizarre Stewarding decisions are the only reason he is still in the championship.

[ioan]

I'm not having a go at Massa and have never accused him of anything like that. In fact, I'm on record as saying I like the chap.

And I'm a Lewis Hamilton fan! :rotflmao:

[Knock-on]

And I'm a Lewis Hamilton fan! :rotflmao:

No Thanks!!

Give us a bad name :p

[woody2goody]

Really wish I didn't start this thread....

I made it in the post-Fuji arguments/heat of the moment, and it was badly conceived AND badly explained.

I apologise to all who were offended (or bemused) by my comments. I don't dislike Felipe Massa at all, it's just that Fuji was such a frustrating experience for a lot of people.

May the best man win in Brazil. I'll be supporting Hamilton but if Massa wins I'll be happy for him as he will have deserved it especially with his six victories.

[Valve Bounce]

Really wish I didn't start this thread....

.

I think we've had a lot of fun here, and that's what this forum should be about, don't you think?

[Tazio]

Really wish I didn't start this thread....

I made it in the post-Fuji arguments/heat of the moment, and it was badly conceived AND badly explained.

I apologise to all who were offended (or bemused) by my comments. I don't dislike Felipe Massa at all, it's just that Fuji was such a frustrating experience for a lot of people.

May the best man win in Brazil. I'll be supporting Hamilton but if Massa wins I'll be happy for him as he will have deserved it especially with his six victories.Don't sweat it!
Almost every thread on this forum ends up being Mac' against Ferrari, Brits against Tifos,. Hamilton fans against all comers! Tifosi against all comers
At least you’re honest, and don't sit back waiting to snipe at someone. Yes I am guilty of that some times. I've learned to relax, and am generally less confrontational than I used to be. The only real criticism I have about the thread was the wording of the title. You opened up a really relevant question. Is Massa ruthless enough to give more than he takes on track? I think that is really pertinent to this title fight.
I think the only reason Massa looked so sheepish after the race in China is he wasn't comfortable having just had the reining world champion pull over for him. I think he knew before the race was over that he would be sick about it. That’s the way it goes If Kimi had been the one leading Ferrari in points he wouldn't be happy if Massa had to pull over for him. The difference is Kimi doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve like Massa does. Basically when Kimi is doing his job in front of the camera he stays very stoic even after a big victory. Massa is a hot-blooded Latin type, and would be well served to learn how to be cool and calm through all situations while competing. Kimi's approach is the better one IMO, and I've played some very competitive sports! That baring your soul and or bragging on yourself is fine. After the game/race over a few beers!
Ciao
:)

[Rollo]

I like this Massa guy, he seems to be very smart, according to your story he can gain an advantage from any minor touch even if he is penalized for it or if he spins out as a consequence.
He's way better than MS used to be! :D

That "minor" touch sent Hamilton back to 18th and flatspotted his tyres which caused him to make a pitstop on Lap 3 quite apart from any penalty that was imposed.
To dump an opponent from a points scoring position to dead last is a massive advantage but then again you actually condoned the incident anyway.


your opening remark seems to suggest that you might actually condone him punting Hamilton off.


Why should I deny it? I was pretty happy seeing Hamy get a bit of his own medicine. Check the GP thread I even posted there at that very moment!
What would happen if Hamilton were to repay same at Brazil? I'm quite sure that the shoe would be one the other foot then wouldn't it?

Sorry, but punting your opponent off of the track is nothing short of an act of cowardice.

He's way better than MS used to be! :D
Even to the point of scoring points, which MS did not do on either occasion that he punted people off in the hope of taking a championship.

[truefan72]

Knock-on,

s**t happens - Rosberg getting a 10s penalty in Singapore and still manages to finish on the podium being another case in point.

which was another wrong decision by the stewards.

Bring the driver in within 3 laps IMO

[ioan]

That "minor" touch sent Hamilton back to 18th and flatspotted his tyres which caused him to make a pitstop on Lap 3 quite apart from any penalty that was imposed.

Totally bollocks. Hamilton flatspotted his tires when he performed his kamikaze move in turn one.
Nice to see how objective you are! :laugh:

[Tazio]

Totally bollocks. Hamilton flatspotted his tires when he performed his kamikaze move in turn one.
Nice to see how objective you are! :laugh: Yes! That computes :up:

[Knock-on]

Totally bollocks. Hamilton flatspotted his tires when he performed his kamikaze move in turn one.
Nice to see how objective you are! :laugh:

Probably correct although it wouldn't have helped them being spun sideways ;)

[ioan]

Probably correct although it wouldn't have helped them being spun sideways ;)

Probably! ;)

[tintop]

Massa has had his share of good + bad luck this year, but his prospects are infinitely better than when he began the season.

[Bagwan]

Really now , just how sorry can you feel for a young guy , driving for Ferrari , in contention for the world championship ?
Did I mention he's a millionaire ?

I do feel kinda envious , but not exactly sorry .

[Valve Bounce]

Really now , just how sorry can you feel for a young guy , driving for Ferrari , in contention for the world championship ?
Did I mention he's a millionaire ?

I do feel kinda envious , but not exactly sorry .

Me too :(

I wish I had a Ferrari, I wish I raced a Ferrari, and I wish I was a millionaire so that you guys can feel sorry for me too. :(

[Knock-on]

Me too :(

I wish I had a Ferrari, I wish I raced a Ferrari, and I wish I was a millionaire so that you guys can feel sorry for me too. :(


Hey mate, money wouldn't change how we feel about you.

I've always felt sorry for you but just remember that even with your stammer, constant dribbling, body odour, personality issues and scary looks, you're still very special ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Hey mate, money wouldn't change how we feel about you.

I've always felt sorry for you but just remember that even with your stammer, constant dribbling, body odour, personality issues and scary looks, you're still very special ;)

I don't stammer :(

[Knock-on]

I don't stammer :(

LOL

You're still special. Every forum needs a VB :D