Miller: 3 Mfrs Still Talkin'

[indycool]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-porsche-audi-and-alfa-romeo-show-interest-in-returning-to-series//P2/

Time will tell, but it's likely to be a better playing field than it was for Porsche anad Alfa Romeo than it was previously, if they choose to play.

[Rex Monaco]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-porsche-audi-and-alfa-romeo-show-interest-in-returning-to-series//P2/

Time will tell, but it's likely to be a better playing field than it was for Porsche anad Alfa Romeo than it was previously, if they choose to play.

Here's the link for page one, for those people who like to read from front to back.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-porsche-audi-and-alfa-romeo-show-interest-in-returning-to-series/

[Rex Monaco]

"...reliable sources indicate these three motorsports mainstays like the idea of designing a turbocharged, inline, 4-cylinder engine."

So is a turbo inline 4, the future ICS engine?

[F1boat]

If all these engines enter Indy Car, it will be huge.

[Chris R]

Given the economic situation, this is great news. The lack of US manufacturers is disappointing but hardly surprising and not at all a poor reflection on the IRL....

I still think it would be more than prudent to have a non-manufacturer back-up plan in place because it may be some time before the auto market re-bounds ....

[V12]

Good news - shame about the chassis situation though, as regardless of different engines, all cars will still look the same :(

I guess that's the next thing that can be worked on, though.

[Chamoo]

Good news - shame about the chassis situation though, as regardless of different engines, all cars will still look the same :(

I guess that's the next thing that can be worked on, though.

I am not a fan of one chassis, but atleast if all the chassis look alike but look good, it will be a start.

[DBell]

Though I expected it would be the case, I'm disappointed BMW isn't one of the three. Alfa Romeo? Strange they're interested in joining a national series in a country where they don't sell any cars. I know, they plan on reentering the American market. Been hearing that for years now. Unfortunately for the IRL, the world economy isn't going to be helping anything. Just bad timing.

What if none of the three commit to the series? What happens? Will Honda still want to build a new engine with no competition? Does anyone know when the deadline for committing to the IRL is?

[NickFalzone]

Interesting that F1 is going single-manufacturer the same year the IRL (hopes) to go multi-manufacturer. As far as Honda, they're signed until 2013 and are on the record that they see benefits as either a single manufacturer or with competitors, so it doesn't matter either way.

[garyshell]

Interesting that F1 is going single-manufacturer...

Huh? What are you talking about?

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

Huh? What are you talking about?

Gary

The FIA put up a tender for a standard engine, for 2010. However, it is not a single manufacturer producing the engines.

[Chris R]

Huh? What are you talking about?

Gary

Recent news reports seems to suggest that the FIA is going for standard engine and gearbox (perhaps with multiple builders) and many standardized chassis parts as well... Seems like they are morphing into CART as well.....

Anyway, as sweeping and controversial as these proposals sound, I am thinking they are political posturing by Max and Bernie for some reason or another....

[indycool]

This was emailed to me as text....couldn't find it to link to the London Times website.............


From The Times of London

October 15, 2008

FIA hatches five-year plan to save Formula One

The FIA proposals include introducing standardised engines

Edward Gorman, Motor Racing Correspondent, Tokyo

After decades of building the most expensive cars in motor sport, Formula One is to suffer a culture shock as the FIA plans radical cost-cutting measures and the imposition of standardised parts over the next five years in an attempt to save the sport from pricing itself out of existence.

Documents obtained by The Times reveal that a crisis summit called by Max Mosley, the president of the FIA, with the ten team principals in Geneva next week will involve discussions on a range of radical new technical regulations designed to cut team budgets drastically and end the culture of “money no object” engine and chassis design. The FIA's initiative follows suggestions made by Mosley and by Bernie Ecclestone, the Formula One commercial rights holder, last week and reported exclusively by The Times that they want to cut costs “dramatically” in the sport.

Among the measures now proposed is the introduction of standard engines from the beginning of the 2010 season, built by teams themselves at a fraction of present costs or produced by a single supplier or contractor. A second new engine regime will start in 2013 with power trains (engine and gearbox) incorporating heat and exhaust recovery systems and achieved at a development cost far lower then present budgets. Cars will also be required to have a chassis with many more “common parts” and will include standard suspension systems, wheels and underbodies.

The new 2013 engines will be compact, but also highly advanced in fuel efficiency and energy efficiency. “We are completely open to new ideas,” the FIA tells the team principals in the documents. “The only preconditions are (i) that the costs of development, maintenance and unit production for the power train must be an order of magnitude lower than is currently the case and (ii) power trains must be available to independent teams at minimal cost.”

The FIA wants to look at any areas where money can be saved and, as it puts it in the documents, the “standardisation of other parts which are the subject of major expenditure but add nothing to the spectacle or the public interest in Formula One”. It wants the team principals to look at ways in which the rules for going racing can be changed to make the sport cheaper, especially in technical areas “invisible” to ordinary viewers. One possibility is that all work on cars during a race weekend will be banned except for necessary maintenance.

The agenda for the meeting in Geneva amounts to a charter for a far cheaper sport but one that Mosley believes can be just as exciting as it is now. In “explanatory notes”, which all the team principals have received as they prepare for the summit, Mosley sets out his vision for a slimmed-down version of motor sport's elite championship fit for a tougher world economic climate. He proposes that in future teams will be able to run on budgets equal to the television rights money distributed to them by Formula One Management (FOM), the company run by Ecclestone. If divided equally, this would allocate £40-50million to each team compared with present technical budgets more than three times that amount for the biggest teams, such as Toyota, Honda and McLaren Mercedes.

“The FIA believes that Formula One costs are unsustainable,” Mosley writes in the notes. “Even before current global financial problems, teams were spending far more than their incomes, in so far as these consist of sponsorship plus FOM money. As a result, the independent teams are now dependent on the goodwill of rich individuals, while the manufacturers' teams depend on massive handouts from their parent companies.”

Mosley's main fear is that, with the Formula One grid four cars short at 20, more of the smaller teams will drop out, leaving the sport unviable. “There is now a real danger that, in some cases, these subsidies will cease,” Mosley writes. “This could result in a reduction in the number of competitors, adding to the two team vacancies we already have and reducing the grid to an unacceptable level. The FIA's view is that Formula One can only be healthy if a team can race competitively for a budget at or very close to what it gets from FOM.”

Although the FIA confirmed last night that an agenda and position paper had been distributed to the Formula One Teams Association, a spokesman refused to comment on any of the details in advance of the Geneva meeting.

[MDS]

They could just rename themselves Champ Car World Series

[garyshell]

There is no way Mercedes, BMW and Ferrari (especially Ferrari) will ever allow the single engine design idea to come to fruition. Enzo won't just role over in his grave, he'll rise up and smite Bernie and Max.

Gary

[V12]

Enzo won't just role over in his grave, he'll rise up and smite Bernie and Max.

Gary

I wish.

[V12]

Sorry, but yeah if the series is committed to technical as well as driver competition, they might win some manufacturers outright from F1, not to mention quite a few fans, so it'll be an interesting couple of years ahead.

[Jag_Warrior]

As Indycool said in another thread, I think the IRL's best chance at growth or success has nothing to do with F1 (or NASCAR or any other series). F1 is an international series with incredible global viewership. The IRL is a national series with (currently) very limited, if any real global viewership. F1 sees global viewership of around 60 million globally for just Monaco. The IRL probably wouldn't see that in two season's worth of races.

Porsche, Audi and/or Alfa would be big lands for the IRL. It's interesting that BMW didn't stay on board. But still, if at least one of those three joins Honda, there should be some marketing muscle behind it. Given the Penske connection, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porsche now either.

So what do you think... Cosworth could build the Alfa engine or the Audi (there is some Cosworth history with Audi), Ilmor could build the Porsche and the Honda goes back inhouse with an assist from Comptech? Porsche and/or Audi could do programs inhouse, but I think Alfa would need help. Thoughts?

[Miatanut]

So what do you think... Cosworth could build the Alfa engine or the Audi (there is some Cosworth history with Audi), Ilmor could build the Porsche and the Honda goes back inhouse with an assist from Comptech? Porsche and/or Audi could do programs inhouse, but I think Alfa would need help. Thoughts?

Alfa is perfectly capable of building a competitive racing engine when the company structure allows it the resources. The Alfa 164 Procar V10 (and the Brabham F1 designed chassis for it) was so effective, they scared off all the competition so the series never got off the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQigN057dMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p36U-ReVQO4&NR=1

[Jag_Warrior]

Alfa is perfectly capable of building a competitive racing engine when the company structure allows it the resources. The Alfa 164 Procar V10 (and the Brabham F1 designed chassis for it) was so effective, they scared off all the competition so the series never got off the ground.

I guess that's what I mean. That was 20 years ago. Up through the mid 80's, Alfa was also still supplying F1 engines. But is Alfa currently in a position to compete on the dyno with the likes of Porsche, Honda or Audi?

Other than lusting for a ride in a Brera and knowing that Fiat Auto isn't in such a strong financial position right now, I don't know much about Alfa's race engine capabilities. But kind of like when Hyundai was being talked about, I just assume that a newbie would need some heavy lifting assistance. Maybe... maybe not?

[Marbles]

A bit ironic that Porsche and Alfa Romeo show interest considering their mostly forgettable past history in CART. Always mystified by Porsche's lack of success in CART considering the fact that if you had to choose one manufacturer to build a turbo enigne for motorsport I couldn't think of any better candidate than Porsche.

If they both choose to participate this time I hope they show greater resolve than they did last time around.

[Miatanut]

I guess that's what I mean. That was 20 years ago. Up through the mid 80's, Alfa was also still supplying F1 engines. But is Alfa currently in a position to compete on the dyno with the likes of Porsche, Honda or Audi?

Other than lusting for a ride in a Brera and knowing that Fiat Auto isn't in such a strong financial position right now, I don't know much about Alfa's race engine capabilities. But kind of like when Hyundai was being talked about, I just assume that a newbie would need some heavy lifting assistance. Maybe... maybe not?
I think they have a lot of people who like to do stuff that's a bit different. On production cars, the Spider had VVT in 1980, and they've done twin spark, reed valves, variable length intake runners, and probably a bunch of other interesting things I've forgotten about or missed. I think they would be up to the challenge.

The question is whether Fiat group would allow them to give it the necessary resources. In F1, their V12 (designed pre-Fiat group) did well, but when the turbo age came (post-Fiat group) their engine sucked. Same with the CART effort, which was post-Fiat group.

[nigelred5]

If one recalls, there was considerable controversy surrounding the Alfa Indycar engines. I believe they were essentially reverse engineered directly from the Chevy Ilmor engines. Wasn't it Danny Sullivan that had turned over a complete Chevy engine to Alfa when they were "developing" their engine.I recall reading one time that the Alfas were so close to the chevy's, they looked like a chevy with a traditional Alfa Valve cover. I know that the manufacturer engine leases in CART arose from this.

Porsche had to deal with the death of Al Holbert, and then controversy over the carbon fibre chassis situation with the CART board. Porsche won in 89, then left because of politics following the 90 season. It had little to do with their engines, it was politics and the uncompetetive March chassis they were forced to use in the 90 season. Porsche/ March and Walker had developed a 100% carbon fibre tub and Penske had essentially been beaten at his own game so the boardmembers voted it down. Certainly wasn't the first or last time that CART's board pissed off a manufacturer.

[indycool]

That's pretty much how I recall it, Nigel. Those manufacturers weren't given much of a chance. In Alfa's case, Patrick ALLEGEDLY sent a Chevy engine to Alfa to look at when the Alfa wasn't up to speed. As I recall, there was a big stink about it.

[Miatanut]

Yes. Patrick was late in returning his Chevy's. Everybody knew where they went.

[Marbles]

Thanks for the history lesson Nigel. I was unaware of those facts. I only had a vague recollection of Fabi in a cooked Porsche and Sullivan in a few cooked Alfas.

[indycool]

Go to latest news, Oct. 16......

http://www.italiaspeed.com/

[garyshell]

Go to latest news, Oct. 16......

http://www.italiaspeed.com/


I think this is what you were trying to post.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2008/motorsport/others/other/indycar/10/alfa_romeo/1610.html

Their stupid website design changes all of the actual URL's in the address bar to their home page.

Gary

[indycool]

Right....I couldn't figure out how to do it.......

[dataman1]

Porsche/ March and Walker had developed a 100% carbon fibre tub and Penske had essentially been beaten at his own game so the boardmembers voted it down. Certainly wasn't the first or last time that CART's board pissed off a manufacturer.

I agree totally, IMO it was also not the first or last time that Penske exerted his power to get things changed to please himself.

[Chaparral66]

It's nice to see some new engineering blood in the series, but is there anyway to entice a domestic manufacturer back into it, like Ford? The balance that works so well in ALMS and Grand Am could work well, again, in Indy Cars.

[indycool]

Possible, but Detroit's hurtin' right now so NASCAR seems to be a bit more worried about that.

[Chaparral66]

Possible, but Detroit's hurtin' right now so NASCAR seems to be a bit more worried about that.

That's true, and I just came back from Detroit. But unlike NASCAR, Ford wouldn't have to put in the financial resources into an engine program, epsecially if they were to work with Cosworth again; maybe that wouldn't be as much of a drain as backing Roush-Fenway and Yates in NASCAR is.

[DBell]

AR1 has Fiat delaying Alfa's return to the US in it's rumors section. I don't have a subscription, but if the headline has any truth to it, then the current list may be down to 2.

[indycool]

Of course it's delayed. The specs haven't even been agreed on yet. And it's rumors. And it's AR1.

[garyshell]

Of course it's delayed. The specs haven't even been agreed on yet. And it's rumors. And it's AR1.

The delay is about Alfa dealerships returning to the US. Given the current economy, not a surprise.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

That's true, and I just came back from Detroit. But unlike NASCAR, Ford wouldn't have to put in the financial resources into an engine program, epsecially if they were to work with Cosworth again; maybe that wouldn't be as much of a drain as backing Roush-Fenway and Yates in NASCAR is.

I don't expect to see any of the Big 3 (soon to be the Medium 2) spending money on new racing programs anytime soon. While it's true that Ford would likely go to Cosworth, the development costs would still have to be covered by Ford, or some other manufacturer.

The Cosworth of 2008 is a shadow of what it was ten or twenty years ago. Only if Kalkhoven or Forsythe would eat the development costs would Ford get off cheap - though maybe not the same level of dollars required for NASCAR. But here again, the return from NASCAR seems to make the investment worth it. Given what's been happening over the past month or so, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Kalkhoven is in great financial pain now. I don't see him or Ford prepared to come up with the $20 million plus to R&D and support a new racing engine.

[Jag_Warrior]

Of course it's delayed. The specs haven't even been agreed on yet. And it's rumors. And it's AR1.

Alfa Romeo is delaying its return to the U.S. market by a year: from 2010 to 2011. Sergio Marchionne made the annoncement on October 23. Marchionne told analysts, because "it would be simply crazy investing for returning Alfa in such a depressed U.S. market."

This is the second time in less than 12 months that Alfa has reset the return date. Unless the market turns around soon (which I don't see happening), I'd expect this date to be pushed out even further.

[DBell]

Audi is in and Porshe is on the fence according to Robin Miller in his latest mailbag.


http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/robin-millers-mailbag-for-october-28/

[Rex Monaco]

Audi is in and Porshe is on the fence according to Robin Miller in his latest mailbag.


http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/robin-millers-mailbag-for-october-28/


I couldn't find the remark that Porsche was on the fence, but since Porsche is actively purchasing Volkswagen, owner of Audi, it would make sense that they'd only want to use one of the marques for the series.