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View Full Version : 2008 Champion will go to the wrong driver



seppefan
13th October 2008, 17:17
Seems to me that two drivers who would DESERVE to be the 09 World Champion are Alonso and Kubica. Neither Hamilton or Massa have driven a Champion season. Both have driven some fantastic races but have also screwed up while having the best cars. Alonso and Kubica drive their cars to their full potential and more and would be more worthy Champions in my humble view. .

F1boat
13th October 2008, 18:56
I agree, but still I'd love to see Massa crowned as champion.

jens
13th October 2008, 19:07
As I have written in another thread, World Championship is not ultimately about drivers, but about the whole team effort. We can argue, who are the best drivers and if the champion is among them, but it doesn't make the champion himself undeserving, because other factors have made up the deficiencies. And one can't become a champion with poor driving anyway, championship battle creates a different pressure. In the list of F1 WDC's there are no bad or average drivers even if they haven't been the most impressive performers in their winning season.

Driving-wise Alonso and Vettel may indeed be performing at the highest level, but in turn I may ask you why do you want their teams - Renault and Toro Rosso - to win the title, when they don't deserve it? :p :

Tazio
13th October 2008, 19:17
Seems to me that two drivers who would DESERVE to be the 09 World Champion are Alonso and Kubica. Neither Hamilton or Massa have driven a Champion season. Both have driven some fantastic races but have also screwed up while having the best cars. Alonso and Kubica drive their cars to their full potential and more and would be more worthy Champions in my humble view. .As much as I agree with the "spirit" of your post,
this is F1. How many times has a pilot in an inferior car lost
while displaying superior craft to the eventual WDC?

Rollo
13th October 2008, 20:15
1990? The Ferrari was a fragile beast and I suspect that it was only someone of the caliber of Prost who could drive sensitively enough to hold it together over a race distance. Mansell's 8 failures and indeed Prost's own 4 show this.

In the end, superior race craft did not win the drivers title in 1990.

christophulus
13th October 2008, 20:32
As I have written in another thread, World Championship is not ultimately about drivers, but about the whole team effort.

Exactly, and that's what makes F1 different to the other series with the identical cars - GP2 etc, which is much more in the hands of the driver. The car plays an enormous part in who wins, both its outright speed and how well the driver can get the full potential out of it, and that's usually the product of a great team.

Schumacher's titles in 2002 and 2004 are proof of the fact that a superior car (and an accommodating team mate :p ) can make all the difference. I certainly won't try to pretend that anyone could have won in that car, he undoubtedly put in a great performance and I won't try to cheapen his achievements, but he wouldn't have won in the Minardi!

There are other examples - the McLarens in 1988/89 and the Williams in 1996 among several others - where the team, and therefore the car makes the difference. And for that reason, Kubica/Vettel/Alonso can't really be seen as challengers if they were only competitive for half of the season.

ShiftingGears
14th October 2008, 02:28
Well out of the three, I think Kubica has done the best job this season. Lewis and Felipe have both put out sensational drives, but they have been littered with erratic performances.

If Lewis keeps it up without developing as a driver, he could be the next Montoya. He has potential, but he'll only realise it if he gets his head screwed on.

Valve Bounce
14th October 2008, 04:41
Seems to me that two drivers who would DESERVE to be the 09 World Champion are Alonso and Kubica. Neither Hamilton or Massa have driven a Champion season. Both have driven some fantastic races but have also screwed up while having the best cars. Alonso and Kubica drive their cars to their full potential and more and would be more worthy Champions in my humble view. .

Hey!! you forgot bunsen and DC :eek:

ArrowsFA1
14th October 2008, 08:00
Well out of the three, I think Kubica has done the best job this season.
If he doesn't win the championship then I think he stands a very good chance of getting the #1 spot in the Autocourse (http://uk.autocourse.com/?uid=<UID>) driver ratings this year.

leopard
14th October 2008, 10:52
I agree, but still I'd love to see Massa crowned as champion.
Let's see how long your support will stand for Massa? ;)

Knock-on
14th October 2008, 11:02
Well out of the three, I think Kubica has done the best job this season. Lewis and Felipe have both put out sensational drives, but they have been littered with erratic performances.

If Lewis keeps it up without developing as a driver, he could be the next Montoya. He has potential, but he'll only realise it if he gets his head screwed on.

Kubica has been very solid this year and you have a good point.

Lewis has driven the wheels off the McLaren but made a couple of fundemental errors which need to be addressed. As a fan of his, I accept he has made a couple of bone head moves but I can live with that because it's the sort of driver he is. You always know he will give it everything.

Massa has had some very erratic races that cannot be put down to the equipment. He has come on a lot this year but he still wouldn't be in the hunt as he is without some assistance from up on high.

pino
14th October 2008, 11:06
I would give the title to Jarno and make everyone happy :D

Knock-on
14th October 2008, 12:00
I would give the title to Jarno and make everyone happy :D


Well, you and JT anyway ;)

MAX_THRUST
14th October 2008, 12:06
Kubica deserves it definately.

Massa, no thanks I wouldn't want to win an egg and spoon race if I had glued the egg to the spoon. Its not fair. However I find myself screaming at the TV these days so I'd like to thank Massa Ferrari and the FIA for being so one sided. Makes me as passionate as the FErrari fans.

wedge
14th October 2008, 12:18
To be critical of Kubica he hasn't been a direct contender for the WDC even though he's within a mathmatical chance. By that I mean he hasn't been under the intense pressure of being at the very top fighting for WDC.

Kubica may well have the pace and fighting spirit but can he race for points or will he race for the win regardless a la Hamilton? Will he do whatever it takes to win WDC a la Schumi and Senna?

ioan
14th October 2008, 13:00
Why not give it to Sutil? I bet he's doing his best anyway! :rolleyes:

V12
14th October 2008, 16:12
I agree both Kubica and Alonso have both put the title contenders to shame lately, although let's not forget Alonso has seemed strangely off the boil at times this season (lack of motivation?)

And as has already been mentioned, Kubica, much like when Hamilton was wowing everyone with his debut performances early 2007, has yet to be tested mentally in a high pressure title-fighting situation (although I believe he will get that opportunity in the next 2-3 years unless something goes drastically wrong for him).

And at the end of the day, that just adds to part of the fun of the sport, whether it was Stirling Moss in 1961, Ronnie Peterson in 1974, Gilles Villeneuve in practically every season of his career apart from 1979, Schumacher in 1996-97... Everyone loves the story of an exceptionally talented driver heroically transcending his machinery but ultimately falling short against arguably lesser talented drivers in better cars in the title race. Stories which will be told for decades to come - sure as hell is a lot more interesting than GP2.

keysersoze
14th October 2008, 17:50
Damon Hill was a very talented test driver and qualifier, but a significantly flawed racer. His title and 20 or so wins in a relatively short career is testament to the dominance of the team.

Therefore, I have no problem with Massa or Hamilton winning the title.

DazzlaF1
14th October 2008, 21:28
Damon Hill was a very talented test driver and qualifier, but a significantly flawed racer. His title and 20 or so wins in a relatively short career is testament to the dominance of the team.

Therefore, I have no problem with Massa or Hamilton winning the title.

True, its fair to say that at the time, the Williams was the best team and they had the best engine and car on the grid, but not many people mentioned that he drove some great races in the back end of the 1998 season for Jordan which included a memorable win in the torrential rain in Belgium.

The last time i can think of the Drivers title going to a driver that was'nt driving the best car was Keke Rosberg back in 1982, against a field fast filling up with turbo's, he had a trusty 15 year old Cosworth DFV in the back of his Williams

V12
14th October 2008, 22:47
True, its fair to say that at the time, the Williams was the best team and they had the best engine and car on the grid, but not many people mentioned that he drove some great races in the back end of the 1998 season for Jordan which included a memorable win in the torrential rain in Belgium.

The last time i can think of the Drivers title going to a driver that was'nt driving the best car was Keke Rosberg back in 1982, against a field fast filling up with turbo's, he had a trusty 15 year old Cosworth DFV in the back of his Williams

I think Alain Prost in 1986 can be put into this category as well, I think the Williams-Hondas were quicker but Prost came in right at the end to pip Mansell (after his famous tyre blow-out) and Piquet.

But both Prost and Rosberg in 1982 still had a quick car capable of winning races, the equivalent of today's BMW, or Renault at worst. I can't think of anyone who has EVER won the championship in a vastly inferior car since it began. Which kind of blows a whole in the argument of those who say F1 is too much about the car these days, because it's always been like that.

wedge
14th October 2008, 23:04
Kimi has been often regarded as a car breaker but in 2003 ended as runner up with 1 win and consistent points finish, JPM the more realistic challenger to Schumi that year.

keysersoze
14th October 2008, 23:20
True, its fair to say that at the time, the Williams was the best team and they had the best engine and car on the grid, but not many people mentioned that he drove some great races in the back end of the 1998 season for Jordan which included a memorable win in the torrential rain in Belgium.

The last time i can think of the Drivers title going to a driver that was'nt driving the best car was Keke Rosberg back in 1982, against a field fast filling up with turbo's, he had a trusty 15 year old Cosworth DFV in the back of his Williams

Yes, Damon was a phenomenal car developer, and he proved more to me in the Arrows and the Jordan than he ever did while he drove for Williams.

1982 was the year Villeneuve was killed and Didier Pironi's had his career-ending shunt. If either of these two had survived the season, Keke wouldn't have won the title.

Lalo
15th October 2008, 00:18
Massa has made himself up the leatherboard all along the year. Remember how poor his results were at the begining of 2008. Now he's far better, and have won many races this season. It would be great to see him being crown world champion.

On the other hand, Hamilton may (I'm not saying he is) be one of the bests drivers on track, but he plays as dirty as he gets (being part of being the best also involves to stick to the rules). That completely shadows his skills and makes him gain some enemies. If the championship goes on the englishman's favour, he wouldn't deserve it.

Now it seems some drivers are helping others, no matter which team they're racing for. The Webber/Massa incident, for example. Also, Fernando said he would be pleased to help Robert Kubica or Massa on their driver's title, but definitly not Hamilton. If I were Alonso, I would race for Felipinho mostly and, if there are some hopes, for Robert.

Ranger
15th October 2008, 01:00
Why not give it to Sutil? I bet he's doing his best anyway! :rolleyes:

Nah, Fisi's way better. :p :

F1boat
15th October 2008, 09:43
Let's see how long your support will stand for Massa? ;)

Until Alonso rises again :)

leopard
15th October 2008, 09:50
Until Alonso rises again :)
I think you will change your mind if it rains. :)

F1boat
15th October 2008, 09:52
If it rains Lewis will win the championship and I will be a very sad Formula 1 fan ;)

Garry Walker
15th October 2008, 17:02
I would like nothing more than to say Felipe Massa world champion, but at this moment I feel only one guy truly deserves the title of the top 3. That is Robert Kubica.

N. Jones
15th October 2008, 17:52
Seems to me that two drivers who would DESERVE to be the 09 World Champion are Alonso and Kubica. Neither Hamilton or Massa have driven a Champion season. Both have driven some fantastic races but have also screwed up while having the best cars. Alonso and Kubica drive their cars to their full potential and more and would be more worthy Champions in my humble view. .

The deserving champion is the one who finishes first in the drivers standings. I don't see why overall consistency has to play a factor into whether someone "deserves" the WDC.

For the past, oh I don't know, eight/nine years we have seen one team dominate a season (Ferrari, then Renault) bringing an early finality to the championships and now we have a good number of drivers who have a shot at winning races if not the drivers title. Isn't this was the majority of people want, many people fighting for what is an unpredictable finish?

I see this as a good thing regardless of how people have driven.

Tazio
15th October 2008, 18:25
The deserving champion is the one who finishes first in the drivers standings. I don't see why overall consistency has to play a factor into whether someone "deserves" the WDC.

For the past, oh I don't know, eight/nine years we have seen one team dominate a season (Ferrari, then Renault) bringing an early finality to the championships and now we have a good number of drivers who have a shot at winning races if not the drivers title. Isn't this was the majority of people want, many people fighting for what is an unpredictable finish?

I see this as a good thing regardless of how people have driven.
:up:

ioan
15th October 2008, 18:29
I see many people tend to go for how Kubica would be a deserving champion.
However, even if I don't like Hamilton I would say that taking into account this seasons performances he is more deserving to be champion than the pole, 4 wins to 1 is more than enough proof to that.
It's still F1 and it's still more about winning than trundling around and getting points when the other have mechanical misfortunes or are punished.

Ranger
15th October 2008, 23:22
I see many people tend to go for how Kubica would be a deserving champion.
However, even if I don't like Hamilton I would say that taking into account this seasons performances he is more deserving to be champion than the pole, 4 wins to 1 is more than enough proof to that.
It's still F1 and it's still more about winning than trundling around and getting points when the other have mechanical misfortunes or are punished.

Competing for the title in what is now the 3rd to 4th best car in the field by quite a margin is quite an acheivement by any standard. Just because it isn't a winning car every weekend doesn't make his achievement any less remarkable.

jas123f1
16th October 2008, 08:22
Seems to me that two drivers who would DESERVE to be the 09 World Champion are Alonso and Kubica. Neither Hamilton or Massa have driven a Champion season. Both have driven some fantastic races but have also screwed up while having the best cars. Alonso and Kubica drive their cars to their full potential and more and would be more worthy Champions in my humble view. .



I understand how you are thinking - BUT as you know it's never only driver's competition even if there are 2 titles F1 is very much team work. Therefore is the driver who has most points when a season is over a worthy champion. The competition is also going on more or less during whole year because the teams are developing, testing and working with everything from the car and equipment to the personal and keeping contact to the sponsors and so on..
E.g. now when 2008 season is over has Ferrari a big testing and developing program before next season start.. (10000 km for Kimi so he can solve his problems) But ok Alonso is one of the top drivers.. and possible the best.. as driver and car developer..

I baptized my cat to Alonso some years a go (when Alonso became WDC first time) because he (my cat) is black, europe (breed) and smart like Alonso.. :)

truefan72
16th October 2008, 11:11
Well out of the three, I think Kubica has done the best job this season. Lewis and Felipe have both put out sensational drives, but they have been littered with erratic performances.

thats why LH is 12 points clear of kubica with 2 races tog o even with scoring zero point in his last race and massa is 7 points clear of kubica right.

come on, the two drivers who have done the best job all year long have been Massa and Hamilton. Both of them.

What exactly do you base criteria of doing the best job.

Hamilton has gotten pole 6 times and Massa 5 times
Hamilton has won 4 times ( should be five) and podiumed 9 times
Massa has won 5 times and podiumed 8 times
Kubica has won 1 tiime and podiumed 7 times

Big Ben
16th October 2008, 11:23
Hamilton has won 4 times ( should be five) and podiumed 9 times


that's just because you want it, right?

Tazio
18th October 2008, 20:12
Looking at the WDC objectively, LH really is in the pound seats!
More so than Ferrari are in for the WCC.
Hamilton has put himself into a
position where there is a very good chance he can clinch the title this race!
If the race Stewards come up with some chicken-$hit penalty to leave Massa
a mathematical chance to win the title
I will be one pissed-off F-1 \ Ferrari fan!
Although not a surprised one! :beer:

ShiftingGears
18th October 2008, 22:55
thats why LH is 12 points clear of kubica with 2 races tog o even with scoring zero point in his last race and massa is 7 points clear of kubica right.

come on, the two drivers who have done the best job all year long have been Massa and Hamilton. Both of them.

What exactly do you base criteria of doing the best job.

Hamilton has gotten pole 6 times and Massa 5 times
Hamilton has won 4 times ( should be five) and podiumed 9 times
Massa has won 5 times and podiumed 8 times
Kubica has won 1 tiime and podiumed 7 times

Yes, but Kubica has never been in the fastest car on the grid. In fact, the BMW has primarily been 3rd fastest car on the grid, and he is still in striking distance of the WDC.

That is what I am basing it on. He's level headed, and hasn't lost his head like Massa or Hamilton have. He's just done the job.

truefan72
18th October 2008, 22:59
that's just because you want it, right?


funny how you dissect my post and leave out my comments about massa

apparently that's because you want to see it that way right?

truefan72
18th October 2008, 23:09
Yes, but Kubica has never been in the fastest car on the grid. In fact, the BMW has primarily been 3rd fastest car on the grid, and he is still in striking distance of the WDC.

That is what I am basing it on. He's level headed, and hasn't lost his head like Massa or Hamilton have. He's just done the job.

and that's primarily due to the misfortune of the other 2 drivers ,so if you feel that consistency in terms of keeping his head down and simply driving around the tracks in hopes of the big 4 screwing up then that really isn't a "deserving" champion now is it.

At least Alonso has won 2 races and pushed his inferior car to greater heights than BMW. So I would say he has a bigger claim on that mantle than Kubica. Yes both won in due part to the mclaren/ferrari drivers misfortune. BUT given a chance to fight for a GP win head to head, it was in fact Alonso in an inferior Renault to the BMW that came out ahead.

You can argue about BMW's lack of power vs the other top 2 but for the first half of the year, they were right there, scoring and being on the podium with regularity.

ShiftingGears
18th October 2008, 23:23
and that's primarily due to the misfortune of the other 2 drivers ,so if you feel that consistency in terms of keeping his head down and simply driving around the tracks in hopes of the big 4 screwing up then that really isn't a "deserving" champion now is it.


Well, yes, because he is doing what he needs to do, rather than LH and FM, who are frequently erratic. Most of their misfortunes have been of their own making.

markabilly
18th October 2008, 23:32
?? Well, to quote Mr. Eastwood, as he blew the livin shat out of the sheriff in the "Unforgiven"

"Deserving gots nuthing to do with it....."




Of course, if it did, I would have 8 or 9 of those myself....get real.... :beer:

Bobby_Hamlin
18th October 2008, 23:33
Heinz-Harald Frentzen deserved the 1999 drivers' championship.

markabilly
18th October 2008, 23:35
Heinz-Harald Frentzen deserved the 1999 drivers' championship.
Thanks
I forgot his name.

Yep that was the sherriff who clint blew da livin shat out of.....

jens
19th October 2008, 10:57
Heinz-Harald Frentzen deserved the 1999 drivers' championship.

Yes, Kubica anno 2008 is very similar to Frentzen in '99. Both in the 3rd best car on the grid staying in title contention until last but one race due to the Top2 having a lot of setbacks during the season. I would say Frentzen was the driver of the year in 1999. But should he definetely have become a champion? That's something else than being the best driver. If we take 2008, then Kubica as a driver may indeed have been a worthy champion, but as F1 is a team sport, then it has turned out that BMW doesn't deserve to be a champion. And why should they become it if they gave up already after half a season?

wmcot
23rd October 2008, 08:44
In almost any sport, there is someone who "deserved" better. Fortunately, the winner is determined by the scoreboard at the end of the game (season.) If it was a contest of who "deserved" the title, we'd just have another political contest on our hands and we've got far too much of that already.

Tazio
23rd October 2008, 09:59
In almost any sport, there is someone who "deserved" better. Fortunately, the winner is determined by the scoreboard at the end of the game (season.) If it was a contest of who "deserved" the title, we'd just have another political contest on our hands and we've got far too much of that already.Praise Ala, and Amen I say to thee. :up: