Malcolm and losing with no dignity

[Daniel]

So what do people think about what's happened today?

Mikko knows the title is over and wanted to lose with a bit of dignity but Malcolm had other ideas. Why oh why can Malcolm just not allow Mikko to lose with a bit of dignity?

I personally think Ford should get a large penalty because of this.......

[Kamikaze]

It was not a Highlight for the Sport, no Question.

But why a penalty ?
Wich rule they have broken ?

[RS]

Isn't there something about "bringing the sport into disrepute"?

In Catalunya it was quite normal for them to do the swap, but here it involves 2 drivers, 2 positions and 2 different teams.

Only a Ford fan could defend this, not a fan of sport or rallying.

[Kamikaze]

Isn't there something about "bringing the sport into disrepute"?

If this is a reason for the FIA to give them a penalty, they should do it.


Only a Ford fan could defend this, not a fan of sport or rallying.

I am a Ford Fan, but i have not to defend anything......

[wrc_flipper]

Don't think you can be banned / finned etc for a non existent rule and its only playing a tactical advantage.
In my opinion they are only doing what they needed to do and put the crew with the points scoring remit to the best possible position.

Ford need to have a title this year - it does not look good in the boardroom if you do not bring back some silverware. Mikko is 14points adrift for the drivers title and Ford is 23points off the manufactures - every point counts and I'm sure that M-Sport will not be sentimental is playing games like this to get the points.
Just think if Ford pullout of the WRC then its M-Sport as well as the WRC that will suffer.

[RS]

Just think if Ford pullout of the WRC then its M-Sport as well as the WRC that will suffer.

Couldn't give a toss really. Don't like their tactics or their car.

Ford have been playing games all year. Maybe they should just try winning rallies and championships by going the fastest.

Wilson can go play chess if he likes tactics.

[Daniel]

Just think if Ford pullout of the WRC then its M-Sport as well as the WRC that will suffer.

Good! The WRC and M-Sport can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

[Sulland]

The whole thing is tragic.
It is the same as in F1 where races are lost and won while being in the pitlane and not out on the track !

The drivers hate it
The fans hate it
Money is playing a too big of a role, and that has to change.

Lets get a WR Car that all teams can buy and be competitive, and it is up to the drivers !

[Tom206wrc]

Good! The WRC and M-Sport can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.



Anyway I personnally prefer to follow IRC :p :

[Karukera]

Now i have a very bad feeling that Hirvonen pretended to be against team orders today only to drive criticism away from him and at some level from the team.
He too boldly said he was against it to be honest.
And by accepting the fate he only acted like an ordinary good little soldier or like a Baricchelo.

It raises a cultural question.
If the Americans were actually in charge of their car and MSport, would have they acted like their (excellent) english servants ?

[N.O.T]

Its just sad to see such a hystorical team like ford which gave so much to the sport reduce themselves to that.....i hope they go away and never return, the sport needs men not a bunch of scared little kids.

[Mirek]

Sport suffered a big defeat. Such absurd theatre doesn't help anyhow to get WRC from crisis. Doesn't attract spectators, sponsors or even the media. How attractive it may be when politics are on TV whole day? Watching this is uselles wasting of time.

[DonJippo]

Now i have a very bad feeling that Hirvonen pretended to be against team orders today only to drive criticism away from him and at some level from the team.
He too boldly said he was against it to be honest.
And by accepting the fate he only acted like an ordinary good little soldier or like a Baricchelo.

It raises a cultural question.
If the Americans were actually in charge of their car and MSport, would have they acted like their (excellent) english servants ?

Do you mean same way against tactics like Loeb and Citroen? Until came the day when it was playing into their advantage... Would that be a cultural question as well?

Surely was not the greatest day in the sport but as long as Malcolm owns the cars it's up to him to decide...Germany was different thing as car Duval was driving is not Malcolm's,hence it's better to have Duval in one of his own rather than someone's else.

[alexlake]

As a wrc fan, its quite sad to see this type of thing, its part of the reason i don`t like f1. If Hirvonen goes on to win the title, he should be ashamed, as he should being on the podium today. he must know that he isn`t quite up to the speed of loeb, yet.
I hope loeb wins, cause if anyone deserves to take Tommis record of 4 titles in a row its loeb. Mikko will have his time, in the future.

[Woodeye]

Ford will not get any penalties since they didn't brake any rules.

But as I said in the other thread decicions like these are the last nails to this coffin. Ship called WRC will go down and rally as it was is dead. :mad:

[Karukera]

What Citroën tactics ? Where ? when ?
You have to be a little more specific.

Sorry DJ, no sarcasm intended but could you please rephrase that, as i don't get your point.

[Sulland]

Anyway I personnally prefer to follow IRC :p :

From an excitement point of view fighting for the win, I fully agree. But I am also Norwegian, and there are still few of us in IRC, so I follow both.

Rumours for 09 is saying that Peugeot is coming in with a full manufacturer team, that could mean introduction of things like we are seeing in WRC. Money talks !
Hopefully they are aware of this, and let the sport stay a sport !!

[J4MIE]

I just don't understand.... Malcolm didn't do this for Marcus the last couple of years so why is he doing it for Mikko now? :s

[DonJippo]

What Citroën tactics ? Where ? when ?
You have to be a little more specific.

Having a selective memory day?

[cali]

I would like to know as well, when was the time when Citroen did something similar. It is gettin interesting...

[alexlake]

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=2964&desc=Malcolm%20Wilson%20Q&A

didn`t gronholm lose out to loeb by 1 point a few years back?

[Xsara Fan]

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=2964&desc=Malcolm%20Wilson%20Q&A

didn`t gronholm lose out to loeb by 1 point a few years back?

LOL!!!!!!

"Were you reluctant to involve Petter Solberg in the BP Ford team strategy?

“Yes, but I spoke to [Subaru WRT chief] David Richards and he was very pleased to be able help support the Ford team, which made my life a little bit easier. All the guys did a great job and they acted very professionally.”"

:) ))))))

[MikeD]

If I was the owner of Structo (Duval's sponsor on JML car) I would be absolutely furious with these tactics. They missed out on a podium they had earned fair and square.

Like mentioned by others, then Ford clearly has brought the sport into disrepute and should be penalised accordingly. Unfortunately it looks like it's not going happen.

Anybody seen how Hirvonen looked on the podium? And was there any reaction from the fans?

[klm-607]

Mikko has class as a competitor... Malcom Wilson has none. I was a Ford fan, but I can't support this kind of lame, & unsporting rubbish!!
WRC is in danger of becoming a fiasco like F1.

[jens]

I'm not annoyed, because regardless of the tactics Ford is unable to beat Loeb. :D And such tactics are already a usual part of rallying, so I've already got used to it. If there are team orders, which have brought the sport into disrepute more, then a fine example would be Greece Rally of 2000, when Sainz was ordered to give the win to McRae, although Carlos was ahead of Colin in the championship standings! This was a strange decision.

At the moment, however, Hirvonen is the only one with a remote title chance. The main shame is that in the current state of WRC Ford has too much power (the amount of competitive cars) and can manipulate with results way better than any other manufacturer.


I just don't understand.... Malcolm didn't do this for Marcus the last couple of years so why is he doing it for Mikko now? :s

Because Mikko is an inferior driver and needs more help! :p :

[sal]

Anyone who thinks this a Ford speciality or something new is talking thru their third eye. Lancia were notorious in the 80s for this and Mitsu ran into controversy when Makinen was asked to slow down for Erikkson in Swden in the mid 90s. This is a business first and a sport second and therefore decisons are taken for commercial reasons. If Ford pull out and dont homogolate a version of the Fiesta the WRC will be made up of 4 Citroens and a few wealthy sons of Scandavians and how joyous will that be but at least you wont be able to whinge about their tactics...

[AndyRAC]

I think we all knew there would be the possibilty of 'team orders' - what I find quite staggering is Malcolm being interviewed and saying they might have to think about 'moving/arranging' the order in which the Ford drivers finish. Surely this isn't allowed - or is it? Team orders are surely banned - it is normally difficult to prove them - but this was almost sticking two fingers up to the F1A.

[Langdale Forest]

I would now want Citroën to win both championships for this year and next year for what happend over the last 2 weeks.

Abosulutley pathetic! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[RS]

Latvala also stopped on SS16 to make sure the plan worked.

[AndyRAC]

Mikko has class as a competitor... Malcom Wilson has none. I was a Ford fan, but I can't support this kind of lame, & unsporting rubbish!!
WRC is in danger of becoming a fiasco like F1.

Fortunately, the WRC doesn't have much publicity, so there won't be any outrage from 'Joe Public' - it would be a problem if it was like F1. However it is hidden away, so no problem.

[Daniel]

Anyone who thinks this a Ford speciality or something new is talking thru their third eye. Lancia were notorious in the 80s for this and Mitsu ran into controversy when Makinen was asked to slow down for Erikkson in Swden in the mid 90s. This is a business first and a sport second and therefore decisons are taken for commercial reasons. If Ford pull out and dont homogolate a version of the Fiesta the WRC will be made up of 4 Citroens and a few wealthy sons of Scandavians and how joyous will that be but at least you wont be able to whinge about their tactics...

I'd rather see the WRC fail miserably and die than see it dragging it's fat ugly butt along the ground like a dog in need of being put down.

What people fail to grasp is that Ford Abu Dhabi Castrol BP whatever are not the same as Stobart. I freely accept that Duval could move aside for Mikko but to use a Stobart car is just against the spirit of the rules. I've always said that if Ford want to have a 4 or 5 car team then they should field one and not pretend that they've got an M1 and M2 team. Imagine the uproar if the Ferrari engined Toro Rosso's moved aside to let their Ferrari cousins through without resisting. It's not cricket...... it's just not right and I'm sure even Malcolm knows it.....

If the Stobart cars are part of the same team then they should be treated as if they are in the same team and not be allowed to score M2 points while assisting the M1 team. It's taken the combined efforts of 5 Ford drivers to get within 23 points of the 2 C4's. If Malcolm put as much money into developing the car as he did into stacking the odds in his favour by entering lots of cars then they might be able to challenge Citroen.

But Malcolm didn't chose to do that and is going to get boned spectacularly. I hope Citroen wait till Rally GB to really ram it down Malcolm's throat that he's lost badly

[jacko]

well, think you people overreact a bit. Ford still has got a small chance so why not. Even with the manufacturers they gain a point extra with this solution. Normally Hirvonen was the second man but he was a bit unlucky. Malcolm Wilson took the right decision and i have no problem with that.
2 years ago in Australia he also had the choice to drop Hirvonen back from the leading position in benefit for Gronholm but he didn't. After that Gronholm couldn't become the champ anymore. And Ford don't use tacticts in the beginning of the season, so today was okay.
I really hope, most of you, the drivers and teamboses that the starting order for day 2 & day 3 will be like previous years, that was okay.

[ChickenMcNugget]

With regard to dropping Hirvonen back in '06 and '07 to help Gronholm, there weren't too many opportunities anyway, were there? As far as I recall, Hirvonen was always either a dutiful second to his elder Finn in a Ford 1-2, or the two drivers were sandwiched by Loeb.

Norway '07 does come to mind (where I think Hirvonen headed a 1-2), but that was early in the season and as since they resigned him, Ford have always had confidence in him, perhaps they were unsure as to whether he should suddenly become a title contender himself.

[Glee]

It did make my pickems more correct, so in that way team orders were fine...

[jonkka]

With regard to dropping Hirvonen back in '06 and '07 to help Gronholm, there weren't too many opportunities anyway, were there?

In Deutschland 2007 Mikko was 3rd and Marcus 4th - at that point both were close to Loeb in championship points but still that one extra point for Marcus might have changed the course for the rest of the season.

Malcolm hasn't interfered with drivers' championship battles before, so his favoritism towards Mikko at the moment is somewhat confusing to me. I understand that he wanted both M1 Fords ahead of Stobart ones for manu points but dropping Duval behind Mikko was a clear drivers' championship move.

Interesting, old dog can learn new tricks.

[N.O.T]

well if Mr hirvonen was so much against the team orders he could just take a penalty to drop behind duval without risking the manufacturers points...but i guess he was fine with the decision.

[Buzz Lightyear]

I wonder is Duval getting paid?

If so, I expect Structro are paying for JML to learn to how drive on tarmac??

With JML's impressive showing, Structro has just allowed JML to shoe-horn Duval out of a works seat next year..... Brilliant!?

Not good business, for such clever people.

This mess are the cracks of a system which is broken, and a strenghtening driver market.

We just need one more manufacturer, and we will see the back of rich kids vying for points.

WRC is only now enjoyable, i would imagine, if you are performing in the circus.

To the rest of us, its a farce.

[ChickenMcNugget]

I was actually a tad confused as to why Duval didn't drop behind Hirvonen in Germany. Did I miss the reason? Duval even expressed a willingness to do so, in the Autosport report at least.

I'm not too sure what the Australia '06 situation was, but had Ford secured the manufacturers' title by then? I could've sworn they hadn't.

[A.F.F.]

I'm speechless...

I guess this season is over for me now. :mark:

[Buzz Lightyear]

I'm speechless...

I guess this season is over for me now. :mark:

A.F.F lost for words?? surely not...

[A.F.F.]

Can someone tell me what was the rally where Richard Burns got two positions higher on behalf of Petter Solberg and Markko Märtin at Subaru ?

I guess it just happens.. right NOT?

[ChickenMcNugget]

Can someone tell me what was the rally where Richard Burns got two positions higher on behalf of Petter Solberg and Markko Märtin at Subaru ?

I guess it just happens.. right NOT?

That was the San Remo Rally of 2001, I believe. Burns was promoted from sixth to fourth as a result.

Edit: Poo. It was Corsica. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/world_rally_2001/1610295.stm

I remember him finishing fourth. Hmm.

[A.F.F.]

That was the San Remo Rally of 2001, I believe. Burns was promoted from sixth to fourth as a result.

Edit: Poo. It was Corsica. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/world_rally_2001/1610295.stm

I remember him finishing fourth. Hmm.

Hmmm... makes me wonder if Burns was as all right witht he decision as Hirvonen this weekend. Care to answer that N.O.T. ?

[N.O.T]

And also that year Burns won the championship with 1 point advantage i think so peters 'sacrifice' was a crucial one... same with colin and carlos in spain a few years back and loix and makinen in acropolis ects ects....arranging positions within a team although i don't like it i can accept it... (Another example for team orders is that usually 2nd drivers within a team are told to secure points rather than attack, which is basically the same as giving away positions to the 1st driver)

Interfering with a supposed rival team to get what you want is too much...so i guess old dogs can't learn new tricks but sick ones can very well do so....lets hope the sick dogs retire from the WRC for good in the following year.

[xavier]

Team orders always existed. As fans we don't like them because we dont have involvement in a team return on investment.

It is acceptable to me that Citroen would freeze position like, for instance, in Germany 2005. It is still acceptable that Ford say to their driver to switch place like in Spain this year.

Though, it is totally unacceptable for a team to inforce team orders on another team, like M-Ford did with Stobard this time around. This is collusion.

Mikko said he did not want 2nd place that way, acknowledging that he made a mistake. This goes to his credits and i'd like to think that he was truthfull with that statement. Though he needs to follow team orders. He is surely not to a level were he can overrule his team manager. So IMO the blame is only on Malcom Wilson.

I think, even though I cannot point to a specific rule, that what Ford did today was not legal. And I think they should sanctionned for it. It's just for the principal of it, as i don't think their "tricks" will have any influence on either championships.

I had, in past most respect for Malcom Wilson. I am afraid I cannot say that anymore, at least as a team manager.

[Woodeye]

well if Mr hirvonen was so much against the team orders he could just take a penalty to drop behind duval without risking the manufacturers points...but i guess he was fine with the decision.

I'm sure that you are not working, but in real world if you don't do as the company that gives you the paycheck tells you to do, you get sacked.

[AndyRAC]

I'm sure that you are not working, but in real world if you don't do as the company that gives you the paycheck tells you to do, you get sacked.

Exactly!!
Look, team orders have always happened, what has really annoyed people is the way this one was done - involving another team - Stobart Ford - and the way Malcolm said when interviewed how they would consider it. To openly say they would use team orders is wrong- were the Stewards/F1A listening? Probably not!

[gloomyDAY]

Wow, this sport is getting downright ugly. I really don't like tarmac races, errr rallies, because they're boring. Corsica just adds insult to injury.

Waltzing into the forum and reading what happened with Ford is embarrassing. Malcolm shamelessly told the entire world that he was bringing down a supposed rival team in order to place Mikko up a few places and get on the podium.

What's the point of even running Stobart? I'm starting to forget what the point is to even follow the WRC.

[N.O.T]

the fact that malcom didn't do the same when Gronholm was in the team shows that its not team policy to enforce team orders for the drivers championship...so Mikko i guess was part of it.

[Karukera]

Having a selective memory day?

No but feel free to express clearly and pubicly your opinion instead of the whispering. :)

[cut the b.s.]

Can someone tell me what was the rally where Richard Burns got two positions higher on behalf of Petter Solberg and Markko Märtin at Subaru ?

I guess it just happens.. right NOT?

correct me if I'm wrong here(I'm not) but the 3 cars you mention here were all in the 1 team, this weekend an 'independant' team was forced to help out a bunch of under achievers

[MikeD]

I was actually a tad confused as to why Duval didn't drop behind Hirvonen in Germany. Did I miss the reason?

It was because the Structo Ford run in Germany was privately owned and run by R-Tec - not M-Sport. But the Stobart team asked Duval and the Structo boss if he would run for manu 2 points since he's an experct in Germany. But Malcom couldn't ask Duval to drop down behind Hirvonen, because it wasn't his car and it wasn't his driver.

[A.F.F.]

correct me if I'm wrong here(I'm not) but the 3 cars you mention here were all in the 1 team, this weekend an 'independant' team was forced to help out a bunch of under achievers


Same ****, different package. Stobard is as independed as I am in my marriage, hence it does exactly what Wilson tell them to do.

However the point was towards my fellow member N.O.T. here who's personal crusade to certain drivers is so ridicilously black & white he can't see the difference anywhere. Mikko certainly accepted the gift from Wilson and now ( again ) whole of WRC seem like a farce. But like I said, other drivers in the past has accepted it too. Obviously it's a whole different thing when it's done by N.O.T's favourite driver :D

[N.O.T]

read my post please (No44)

[ChickenMcNugget]

Isn't Malcolm the team principal of both teams anyway? They are an M2 team, so total independence is not neccessarily the idea.

[MikeD]

Isn't Malcolm the team principal of both teams anyway? They are an M2 team, so total independence is not neccessarily the idea.

Yes he is - but like Daniel and others have expressed, then Ford cannot have it two ways. Either Stobart is an independant team able to score Manu points - or they are a part of Ford as a whole and can only score drivers points. Ford cannot have it two ways and that's what most of us are critical about.

That's also why previous team-orders with Subaru, Mitsu or Citroën cannot be compared, because that has never involved other teams.

[AndyRAC]

Isn't Malcolm the team principal of both teams anyway? They are an M2 team, so total independence is not neccessarily the idea.

Which I'm not sure about. Should teams be independent? While having more WRCars entering is good, having them all from the same Manufacturer/Team does allow these situations to arise. All it's done is open a can of worms.

[DonJippo]

No but feel free to express clearly and pubicly your opinion instead of the whispering. :)

You must be joking? So according to you Loeb & Citroen has not been playing with tactics this year at all...

[cut the b.s.]

Yes he is - but like Daniel and others have expressed, then Ford cannot have it two ways. Either Stobart is an independant team able to score Manu points - or they are a part of Ford as a whole and can only score drivers points. Ford cannot have it two ways and that's what most of us are critical about.

That's also why previous team-orders with Subaru, Mitsu or Citroën cannot be compared, because that has never involved other teams.

Spot on, those of us who watch a bit of F1 still will have seen a Ferrari engined Toro Rosso battle for points with Ferraris championship challenger, how refereshing this battle for a point was compared to what Msport/Ford did yesterday

[Daniel]

We are talking about using cars from other teams. Not road order tactics. Unless you count Conrad crashing into Sebastien tactics :p

[cali]

You must be joking? So according to you Loeb & Citroen has not been playing with tactics this year at all...
When did Sordo let Loeb pass him or when did Sordo took intentionally penalties?? :eek: :rolleyes: I do not remember... i'm curious, can someone refresh my memory?

[Woodeye]

read my post please (No44)

And you should ready my post n. 46. Like A.F.F said, you are here just to bash the drivers you don't like with your tired sick dog -phrases.

[Woodeye]

When did Sordo let Loeb pass him or when did Sordo took intentionally penalties?? :eek: :rolleyes: I do not remember... i'm curious, can someone refresh my memory?

You don't remember Citroens slowing down to get better road positions?

And no, it wasn't as bad as what Ford did but they used tactics as well.

[Daniel]

That's not what cali said. He said that Sordo has not slowed down this year to let Seb through. Which if i remember right is correct.

[cali]

You don't remember Citroens slowing down to get better road positions?

And no, it wasn't as bad as what Ford did but they used tactics as well.
Yes, i understand You completely. Ford has done this as well. But this is sort of a another case, 2 rallies on a row when a second driver slows down + now also Latvala frm Stobart takes penalties.
I do not remember that Citroen has used this sort of tactics this year. Maybe they would've done this as well when situation would've been opposite. We never know.

But accusing Citroen to pull tactics as this..... :eek:

Like some smarter guys in the past have said: " Best defence is attack!". Aren't you DJ attacking Citroen without a reason to defend Ford??

[Helstar]

well, think you people overreact a bit. Ford still has got a small chance so why not. Even with the manufacturers they gain a point extra with this solution. Normally Hirvonen was the second man but he was a bit unlucky. Malcolm Wilson took the right decision and i have no problem with that.
2 years ago in Australia he also had the choice to drop Hirvonen back from the leading position in benefit for Gronholm but he didn't. After that Gronholm couldn't become the champ anymore. And Ford don't use tacticts in the beginning of the season, so today was okay.
I really hope, most of you, the drivers and teamboses that the starting order for day 2 & day 3 will be like previous years, that was okay.
Correct. Also on Norway and Germany 2007 they didn't swap Bosse-Mikko. Which basicly made Bosse lose driver title (together with the two Japan-Ireland errors).

[Karukera]

You must be joking? So according to you Loeb & Citroen has not been playing with tactics this year at all...

I wasn't smiling, until now. :) Yes, Citroën played tactics this year but wow, it's a long shot as it has nothing to see with my initial post (#10) talking about team nationality.
Anyway, after digging it a bit, i now understand your humourus tongue in cheek. Sarcastic as you could expect from a Finn, i like it :up: .


Something different now. Like other people have pointed out, this is a radical change of tactics by Ford MSport.

Even though Wilson is due to provide solid results, it's clear that Ford Company has increased the pressure on MSport management.
Much more aggressive tactics looking out for all possible opportunities to bag even what could eventually be a fatal single point.

Because the WRC audience is so poor, if they, accidentally, happen to win one or both titles, they don't care about a small portion of fans who know how badly they did get them.
Nothing to compare with the economic impact of a "World Champions, 3 in a row", everywhere, advertising, stickers in the show rooms... The Ford glory for the mass !

Still unsportive and not an excuse though but simply their attempt to sell cars in a certain world conjuncture. The drivers are then caught between the Scylla and Charybdis to acheive this goal.

[ChickenMcNugget]

Which I'm not sure about. Should teams be independent? While having more WRCars entering is good, having them all from the same Manufacturer/Team does allow these situations to arise. All it's done is open a can of worms.

I don't watch the DTM much at all so I may be wrong, but aren't intra-team tactics also rife there between one manufacturers' different teams (ie. those running 2008, 2007, 2006 cars)? I always had the impression that the M1/M2 system in the WRC was introduced for a similar reason as was so in DTM; to increase the number of cars in the field when the number of participating works manufacturer squads is low, as was the case in the WRC in '06.

Technically, I do not see why "Ford cannot have it two ways" either (to MikeD)? An internet message board community won't stop them.

I'm not too fussed about whether a rule is introduced against team orders wherever they exactly resemble this situation or not. They have been a perennial part of motorsport in whichever form they assume. And as F1 has shown, anti-team orders rules are difficult to police. I don't recall Ferrari being punished after Brazil '07 for example. Ditto with achieving 'genuine independence' if there are any other WRC Fords or Citroens on the entry list at all. To me, these situations are just a fact of life in any motorsport, that's all.

[AndyRAC]

I wasn't smiling, until now. :) Yes, Citroën played tactics this year but wow, it's a long shot as it has nothing to see with my initial post (#10) talking about team nationality.
Anyway, after digging it a bit, i now understand your humourus tongue in cheek. Sarcastic as you could expect from a Finn, i like it :up: .


Something different now. Like other people have pointed out, this is a radical change of tactics by Ford MSport.

Even though Wilson is due to provide solid results, it's clear that Ford Company has increased the pressure on MSport management.
Much more aggressive tactics looking out for all possible opportunities to bag even what could eventually be a fatal single point.

Because the WRC audience is so poor, if they, accidentally, happen to win one or both titles, they don't care about a small portion of fans who know how badly they did get them.
Nothing to compare with the economic impact of a "World Champions, 3 in a row", everywhere, advertising, stickers in the show rooms... The Ford glory for the mass !

Still unsportive and not an excuse though but simply their attempt to sell cars in a certain world conjuncture. The drivers are then caught between the Scylla and Charybdis to acheive this goal.

I made a similar point earlier in this/ or another thread. Joe Public won't know what has happened - unlike in F1 were anything 'funny' is discussed in the papers/TV/Radio ad nauseum. One of the 'advantages' of being a minority sport.

[AndyRAC]

I don't watch the DTM much at all so I may be wrong, but aren't intra-team tactics also rife there between one manufacturers' different teams (ie. those running 2008, 2007, 2006 cars)? I always had the impression that the M1/M2 system in the WRC was introduced for a similar reason as was so in DTM; to increase the number of cars in the field when the number of participating works manufacturer squads is low, as was the case in the WRC in '06.

Technically, I do not see why "Ford cannot have it two ways" either (to MikeD)? An internet message board community won't stop them.

I'm not too fussed about whether a rule is introduced against team orders wherever they exactly resemble this situation or not. They have been a perennial part of motorsport in whichever form they assume. And as F1 has shown, anti-team orders rules are difficult to police. I don't recall Ferrari being punished after Brazil '07 for example. Ditto with achieving 'genuine independence' if there are any other WRC Fords or Citroens on the entry list at all. To me, these situations are just a fact of life in any motorsport, that's all.

Team orders are part of Motorsport - we all know that. And yes, it's hard to prove when they've happened - and therefore hard to enforce any rulings. However, this was totally blatant - Malcolm told everybody in an interview. How on earth is that allowed?

[ChickenMcNugget]

Team orders are part of Motorsport - we all know that. And yes, it's hard to prove when they've happened - and therefore hard to enforce any rulings. However, this was totally blatant - Malcolm told everybody in an interview. How on earth is that allowed?

Well, he obviously cannot be penalised if no relevant rule exists, which it seems there isn't.

Personally I'd rather not open a can of worms by probing what team bosses say in interviews. What next, resorting to cheeky winks, lazy half-nods and grins instead to interviewers whenever they ask on the last day, "So will you be slowing down [insert name of driver playing Duval role here]?" It's still not easy to enforce anything.

Personally I'd rather they either have a cast-iron enforcable rule against all team orders full stop, however sneakily done (evidently not possible either), or not bother and just let the vagaries of motorsport be for once. Personally, I've had enough of F1's penchant for the inconsistent application of hazy rules...

[Simmi]

Chicken McNugget raises a good point in that this whole thing reminded me of the DTM last year (back when I was still watching it). The problem stems from there being just two super powers in both sports.

The problem comes from Ford having a disproportionate amount of the cars in the field, and now that these cars are a competitive package, using them like pawns to move around and protect their chosen king (Mikko).

It was the usage of Latvala in a Stobart car that is angering people. Basic two-car team orders shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone. Although I can't condone what Ford did, it should not come as a surprise either.

Without M-Sport there would be a WRC entry of 7 at the next round in Japan. They are both good and bad for the sport, but I feel that Malcolm has become a victim of his own success. All the Focus WRC's are being built, serviced and shipped by M-Sport. They are all Malcolm's cars like it or not.

More to blame should be the rule-makers for allowing a monoploy over the top 8 to form too much. There is a lot of hate directed towards Ford, but I bet if the situation arose, and Loeb was SupeRallying back into the points and was 7th with Aava in sixth, you'd be naive to think they wouldn't switch places. I know they aren't the same team but PHsport exist due to the help of Citreon Sport.

My main point is this: Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[N.O.T]

Without M-Sport there would be a WRC entry of 7 at the next round in Japan. They are both good and bad for the sport, but I feel that Malcolm has become a victim of his own success. All the Focus WRC's are being built, serviced and shipped by M-Sport. They are all Malcolm's cars like it or not.


you do realise that the drivers at stobart pay for the cars? if it wasn't M-sport we would have more citroens and more subarus.....and to be honest it would be a lot better than having M-sport around with the clown tactics.

[Brother John]

That's not what cali said. He said that Sordo has not slowed down this year to let Seb through. Which if i remember right is correct.

Citroën give Sorde just a slower car then Loeb and he is not allowed to go faster, maybe not this year but last year! Kronos had the sh!t Citroëns.
That is also about using cars from other teams. :rolleyes:

[cali]

Citroën give Sorde just a slower car then Loeb and he is not allowed to go faster, maybe not this year but last year! Kronos had the sh!t Citroëns.
That is also about using cars from other teams. :rolleyes:
Any proofs to back your "story"? Source?

[Xsara Fan]

Citroën give Sorde just a slower car then Loeb and he is not allowed to go faster, maybe not this year but last year! Kronos had the sh!t Citroëns.
That is also about using cars from other teams. :rolleyes:

HAHAHAHA! LOL! Please stop! :) :) :)

I think that all drivers has 'slow cars' with 100 bhp. Only Loeb has 3500 bhp car. That`s why he is a 4 time WR champion.

[Brother John]

Any proofs to back your "story"? Source?

Just ask Duval when he was with Citroën and Stohl + Carlsson drivin at Kronos! :p :

[cali]

Just ask Duval when he was with Citroën and Stohl + Carlsson drivin at Kronos! :p :
Manu team and client (Kronos) are 2 different things, Like M-Sport & Stobart. So nothing but "ask Duval" so far.... :rolleyes:

[Brother John]

Manu team and client (Kronos) are 2 different things, Like M-Sport & Stobart. So nothing but "ask Duval" so far.... :rolleyes:

As everyone here can say nonsense, I does that also. :s mokin:

A new advertisement video from Citroën
And Citroën C2 open doors for the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi9Mo0dGcjA
Old Team orders from the past. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayYz-i_Bsv0

[wrc_flipper]

Malcolm Wilson Speaks!

Malcolm Wilson Q&A from WRC.com

Are you satisfied with your team’s performance in Corsica?
“From a results point of view it’s probably as good as we could hope for but yes, it’s been a very good rally for Ford. Again we had to employ some tactics at the end, and we have to say we’re relived they all worked out because it was pretty stressful. Fortunately everything went absolutely to plan. The guys did a great job, they were very professional about the whole thing and okay, there’s still a chance that both Championships are still alive, which is great news ahead of Japan.”
Why did you choose to use penalty time to swap places rather than slowing the cars on the final stage like you have done before?
“We wanted to do it in such a way that everybody knew what was happening before they got back to the final control. And at least the guys were driving flat out through the stages.”
Were you reluctant to involve Jari-Matti Latvala in the BP Ford team strategy?
“Yes, but I spoke to [Stobart Group CEO] Andrew Tinkler and he was very pleased to be able help support the Ford team, which made my life a little bit easier. All the guys did a great job and they acted very professionally.”
Mikko said he was against the use of team orders here - how did he react when you moved him up?
“It’s not an easy situation for anybody, whether you’re a driver or a team manager - and I’ve experienced it from both sides. But there was so much at stake today; both the drivers’ championship and the manufacturers’ championship. I think he would regret it if he were to win Japan and GB and lose out on the championship by one point.”
Were you pleased with Mikko’s performance on the rally?
“Absolutely - I was very happy with both drivers. In one sense with Sebastien we’re competing against probably one of the best drivers the World Rally Championship has ever seen and the great thing is we were on the pace on Friday to the point where Dani made a mistake. I think that proves we were putting him under a bit of pressure. The problem is I know how long it takes to develop a driver and I think it’s going to be very, very difficult for anybody to beat Sebastien anytime in the next five years - by which time he’ll still only be 40.”
http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=2964&desc=Malcolm%20Wilson%20Q&A

[wrc_flipper]

Malcolm Wilson Speaks!

Malcolm Wilson Q&A from WRC.com

Are you satisfied with your team’s performance in Corsica?
“From a results point of view it’s probably as good as we could hope for but yes, it’s been a very good rally for Ford. Again we had to employ some tactics at the end, and we have to say we’re relived they all worked out because it was pretty stressful. Fortunately everything went absolutely to plan. The guys did a great job, they were very professional about the whole thing and okay, there’s still a chance that both Championships are still alive, which is great news ahead of Japan.”
Why did you choose to use penalty time to swap places rather than slowing the cars on the final stage like you have done before?
“We wanted to do it in such a way that everybody knew what was happening before they got back to the final control. And at least the guys were driving flat out through the stages.”
Were you reluctant to involve Jari-Matti Latvala in the BP Ford team strategy?
“Yes, but I spoke to [Stobart Group CEO] Andrew Tinkler and he was very pleased to be able help support the Ford team, which made my life a little bit easier. All the guys did a great job and they acted very professionally.”
Mikko said he was against the use of team orders here - how did he react when you moved him up?
“It’s not an easy situation for anybody, whether you’re a driver or a team manager - and I’ve experienced it from both sides. But there was so much at stake today; both the drivers’ championship and the manufacturers’ championship. I think he would regret it if he were to win Japan and GB and lose out on the championship by one point.”
Were you pleased with Mikko’s performance on the rally?
“Absolutely - I was very happy with both drivers. In one sense with Sebastien we’re competing against probably one of the best drivers the World Rally Championship has ever seen and the great thing is we were on the pace on Friday to the point where Dani made a mistake. I think that proves we were putting him under a bit of pressure. The problem is I know how long it takes to develop a driver and I think it’s going to be very, very difficult for anybody to beat Sebastien anytime in the next five years - by which time he’ll still only be 40.”
http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=2964&desc=Malcolm%20Wilson%20Q&A

[Tomi]

you do realise that the drivers at stobart pay for the cars? if it wasn't M-sport we would have more citroens and more subarus.....and to be honest it would be a lot better than having M-sport around with the clown tactics.

Yes they pay, but no one knows what the terms are in the stobart guys contracts.
Anyway it was not a good thing from Wilson, but also not the first time, a few years back in sweden Tuohino took time penalty to get points for McRae. Citroen is lucky to have so crap guys driving the private cars that they never can play any role in this kind of stuff. :)

[RS]

Malcolm Wilson Speaks!

Malcolm Wilson Q&A from WRC.com

"And at least the guys were driving flat out through the stages.”

Not strictly true. Latvala stopped on SS16.


The problem is I know how long it takes to develop a driver and I think it’s going to be very, very difficult for anybody to beat Sebastien anytime in the next five years - by which time he’ll still only be 40.”


What I expected all year. He has little confidence in his own drivers hence general dodgy use of tactics all year instead of trying to win from the front. I'm actually surprised he said that. Not very nice for Jarri-Matti or Mikko.

[A.F.F.]

This is all too ridicilous. Let's say Loeb lead the whole rally and won it. Both Subarus and Sordo had retired. Then there were seven Fords remaining and Mikko was eight. Wilson could easily lift him up to second.

What's the point in this anymore?

Should M-Sport stop it's business, Wilson would be fine. Next stop, Ferrari :up:

[BDunnell]

Chicken McNugget raises a good point in that this whole thing reminded me of the DTM last year (back when I was still watching it). The problem stems from there being just two super powers in both sports.

The problem comes from Ford having a disproportionate amount of the cars in the field, and now that these cars are a competitive package, using them like pawns to move around and protect their chosen king (Mikko).

It was the usage of Latvala in a Stobart car that is angering people. Basic two-car team orders shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone. Although I can't condone what Ford did, it should not come as a surprise either.

Without M-Sport there would be a WRC entry of 7 at the next round in Japan. They are both good and bad for the sport, but I feel that Malcolm has become a victim of his own success. All the Focus WRC's are being built, serviced and shipped by M-Sport. They are all Malcolm's cars like it or not.

More to blame should be the rule-makers for allowing a monoploy over the top 8 to form too much. There is a lot of hate directed towards Ford, but I bet if the situation arose, and Loeb was SupeRallying back into the points and was 7th with Aava in sixth, you'd be naive to think they wouldn't switch places. I know they aren't the same team but PHsport exist due to the help of Citreon Sport.

My main point is this: Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Yes, it's great that a manufacturer should want to prop the sport up by, in effect, entering lots of works/semi-works cars, but when they are used in cynical ways it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. The DTM is a good example. So is the WTCC, with the huge numbers of BMWs and SEATs. Sadly, I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.

[cali]

As everyone here can say nonsense, I does that also. :s mokin:

Good excuse :D

[Camelopard]

However the point was towards my fellow member N.O.T. here who's personal crusade to certain drivers is so ridicilously black & white he can't see the difference anywhere. Mikko certainly accepted the gift from Wilson and now ( again ) whole of WRC seem like a farce. But like I said, other drivers in the past has accepted it too. Obviously it's a whole different thing when it's done by N.O.T's favourite driver :D

Well said.

[Daniel]

Yes they pay, but no one knows what the terms are in the stobart guys contracts.
Anyway it was not a good thing from Wilson, but also not the first time, a few years back in sweden Tuohino took time penalty to get points for McRae. Citroen is lucky to have so crap guys driving the private cars that they never can play any role in this kind of stuff. :)

True. But would Citroen need to play silly games to win with Loeb?

[Camelopard]

True. But would Citroen need to play silly games to win with Loeb?

No, because Loeb is so much better than everyone one else he doesn't need any extra help to win.

Maybe if (and it's a big 'if') Citroen had some reliability problems it would be a different story.

[AndyRAC]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Yes, it's great that a manufacturer should want to prop the sport up by, in effect, entering lots of works/semi-works cars, but when they are used in cynical ways it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. The DTM is a good example. So is the WTCC, with the huge numbers of BMWs and SEATs. Sadly, I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.

No I quite agree - imagine the entry list without all the Fords. Which is preferable? I suppose it sums up perfectly the current state of the sport. I think somebody has already mentioned the possibility of Hirvonen having problems again and lying in 6/7/8th position behind a group of Fords and suddenly finding himself on the podium. It looks pathetic - and added to the running order 'tactics' - just makes the sport look like a motorised version of the WWE. What we need are more Manufacturers with competitive cars and these problems would be considerably reduced.

[Camelopard]

No I quite agree - imagine the entry list without all the Fords. Which is preferable? I suppose it sums up perfectly the current state of the sport....... What we need are more Manufacturers with competitive cars and these problems would be considerably reduced.

Or even perhaps if some of the current manufacturer entries were competitive, tactics wouldn't have to play such a large part.

If you take out the Fords as some of you obviously want, I can't see Subaru and Suzuki suddenly being competitive and challenging citroen.
Ye gods, if that was to happen even Rautencrash would be in with a chance of a podium. :mad:
Now that would be a very sad day for the sport...................

[Daniel]

Or even perhaps if some of the current manufacturer entries were competitive, tactics wouldn't have to play such a large part.

If you take out the Fords as some of you obviously want, I can't see Subaru and Suzuki suddenly being competitive and challenging citroen.
Ye gods, if that was to happen even Rautencrash would be in with a chance of a podium. :mad:
Now that would be a very sad day for the sport...................
Some people like the idea of privateers being able to win rallies.....

[Zes]

What IF Ford has told M-Sport that if you don't win manufacturers championship this year, there will be no Fords in next year's championship? No M-Sport, no Stobart, no Munchi, nothing. If you were in Malcolm's pants, wouldn't you do anything to save your and your employees jobs?

This is ofcourse pure speculation, but because Ford is considering their future in WRC, I am sure Ford is anxious to get some success to ease their decision.

I don't like it, but I understand it very well.

[AndyRAC]

What IF Ford has told M-Sport that if you don't win manufacturers championship this year, there will be no Fords in next year's championship? No M-Sport, no Stobart, no Munchi, nothing. If you were in Malcolm's pants, wouldn't you do anything to save your and your employees jobs?

This is ofcourse pure speculation, but because Ford is considering their future in WRC, I am sure Ford is anxious to get some success to ease their decision.

I don't like it, but I understand it very well.

It's certainly a possibility, but how much do Ford actually contribute to the 'works' team? Isn't the bulk of the budget provided by BP-Castrol/Abu Dhabi?
Surely they would be able to continue as 'Privateers' albeit in a reduced way. But I see your point.

[RS]

Ye gods, if that was to happen even Rautencrash would be in with a chance of a podium. :mad:
Now that would be a very sad day for the sport...................

Didn't that very nearly happen once already this year?!

[RS]

It's certainly a possibility, but how much do Ford actually contribute to the 'works' team? Isn't the bulk of the budget provided by BP-Castrol/Abu Dhabi?
Surely they would be able to continue as 'Privateers' albeit in a reduced way. But I see your point.

Actually, I think this may be a good option for Ford next year. Like Citroen did with Kronos for one year. They are already thinking about pulling out, but there is still no promoter for next year, still no new rules finalised. Maybe they should run as privateers and M2 teams in 2009 and begin to develop an S2000 car on the new Fiesta platform for the future.

[Lousada]

What IF Ford has told M-Sport that if you don't win manufacturers championship this year, there will be no Fords in next year's championship? No M-Sport, no Stobart, no Munchi, nothing. If you were in Malcolm's pants, wouldn't you do anything to save your and your employees jobs?


Are the M-Sport Focus WRC cars still the property of Ford? I don't think so as M-Sport try to sell every car. It seems to me that Ford only provide funding and homologations.

[Daniel]

Are the M-Sport Focus WRC cars still the property of Ford? I don't think so as M-Sport try to sell every car. It seems to me that Ford only provide funding and homologations.
You can't homologate a car without manufacturer approval can you? I do think Ford gives M-Sport a bit of a budget but not much......

[BDunnell]

Some people like the idea of privateers being able to win rallies.....

Including me, because unexpexcted winners are part of motorsport, and works teams aren't the be-all-and-end-all if independent outfits are truly professional and competitive. Would anyone, for example, have begrudged it if Jimmy McRae had managed to win the 1987 RAC in his RED-run Sierra Cosworth, or if Malcolm Wilson had done so a few years later in his Michelin Pilot Escort Cosworth? And let's not forget Vatanen winning the 1981 title in a non-works car against factory opposition. Different days, I know, but I think the point stands.

[Buzz Lightyear]

You can't homologate a car without manufacturer approval can you? I do think Ford gives M-Sport a bit of a budget but not much......

Daniel.... its actually quite scary that you have over 28,000 posts.... :crazy:

[Daniel]

I've never claimed to know everything :mark: I'm under the impression you can't homologate a car without manufacturer support but wasn't sure. Is it against forum rules not to know everything?

Ben. I take your point but all the drivers you list are world class drivers and are not the rich kids playing with daddy's money which we see a lot of these days. I generalise of course but hopefully you get my point.

[Zes]

Are the M-Sport Focus WRC cars still the property of Ford? I don't think so as M-Sport try to sell every car. It seems to me that Ford only provide funding and homologations.

It would be quite impossible to develop and homologate the car without Ford's support. Current cars would be out of date soon. And remember Mitsubishi case last year. Mitsu didn't give permission to use their name in AlQassimi/Gardemeister team. Ford could do the same to M-Sport, if they decide to withdraw.

[Daniel]

Thanks for the answer Zes :) I thought that was the case but wasn't sure.

[MikeD]

Well, I wrote my thoughts on what Ford did to the M-Sport team and Malcom Wilson himself answered me. (Probably a standard mail to those who complained). Here's what he wrote:

Dear Mr XXX (Just removed my name)

Many thanks for taking the time to contact us to explain your views.

Rallying is a complex sport and the situation in which we found ourselves in Corsica was far from ideal. However, we at the BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally Team had to take whatever steps were necessary within the sport to keep alive our hopes of winning the manufacturers' world title for a third consecutive season and to give Mikko Hirvonen the best opportunity of claiming the drivers' crown.
Of course, we considered the introduction of team orders extremely carefully on the final day and analysed all the options available to us. We settled on this method as the best when there were no other alternatives available to us. Tactics have long been a part of the WRC and accepted as an integral part of the sport by the FIA, teams and competitors alike.
Many thanks for your interest and I hope this helps answer your concerns.

Best regards

Malcolm Wilson
Managing Director

[Daniel]

Why didn't you ask him why his son is so crap while you were at it? :)

[AndyRAC]

Why didn't you ask him why his son is so crap while you were at it? :)


Ooh, ouch!!

[shaitan]

Why didn't you ask him why his son is so crap while you were at it? :)
Daniel,you are bad man.

[Daniel]

i know :) I'm only one man though so what can I do? :p

[Lousada]

It would be quite impossible to develop and homologate the car without Ford's support. Current cars would be out of date soon. And remember Mitsubishi case last year. Mitsu didn't give permission to use their name in AlQassimi/Gardemeister team. Ford could do the same to M-Sport, if they decide to withdraw.

WRC cars are obsolete in 2010 anyway (at least, that's what the FIA wants). Currently the cars are way better than Subaru and Suzuki and I wonder if they will loose that advantage in just one year.
Not allowing to use their name, is that a problem? They could still run the cars and/or call it M-Sport-BP-Stobart-Abbi-Dabbi or something like that.

[jonkka]

You can't homologate a car without manufacturer approval can you?

To be precise: only manufacturer can submit homologation papers.

In the other words, anyone can design the rally version of the car but it cannot be homologated unless manufacturer agrees to submit the paperwork to FIA. So, in effect manufacturer approval is needed, yes.

[jonkka]

Some people like the idea of privateers being able to win rallies.....

But most want even that privateer to be worthy of the win.

[Daniel]

Some like Ben probably do. But some just like the idea of a privateer sticking it to the big guys

[BDunnell]

Some like Ben probably do. But some just like the idea of a privateer sticking it to the big guys

I like the idea of both. Keeps things interesting and unexpected.

[BDunnell]

Ben. I take your point but all the drivers you list are world class drivers and are not the rich kids playing with daddy's money which we see a lot of these days. I generalise of course but hopefully you get my point.

Indeed I do.

[AndyRAC]

To be precise: only manufacturer can submit homologation papers.

In the other words, anyone can design the rally version of the car but it cannot be homologated unless manufacturer agrees to submit the paperwork to FIA. So, in effect manufacturer approval is needed, yes.

Which is something that surely needs looking at. Surely a Prep company like Prodrive/M-Sport should be able to do it - rather than the Manufacturer who can veto plans.

[Daniel]

I think cutting the cost and complexity of the cars would be the best way of making this happen and not just losing manufacturers. If the cars cost as much as s1600's but were fast and spectacular as well as there not being the fact that any car you buy from msport of Citroen being a but below the works cars we'd see this happen more often.

[Mirek]

MikeD: I got the same answer from Malcolm Wilson as You did...

[Tomi]

Well, I wrote my thoughts on what Ford did to the M-Sport team and Malcom Wilson himself answered me. (Probably a standard mail to those who complained). Here's what he wrote:

Dear Mr XXX (Just removed my name)

Many thanks for taking the time to contact us to explain your views.

Rallying is a complex sport and the situation in which we found ourselves in Corsica was far from ideal. However, we at the BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally Team had to take whatever steps were necessary within the sport to keep alive our hopes of winning the manufacturers' world title for a third consecutive season and to give Mikko Hirvonen the best opportunity of claiming the drivers' crown.
Of course, we considered the introduction of team orders extremely carefully on the final day and analysed all the options available to us. We settled on this method as the best when there were no other alternatives available to us. Tactics have long been a part of the WRC and accepted as an integral part of the sport by the FIA, teams and competitors alike.
Many thanks for your interest and I hope this helps answer your concerns.

Best regards

Malcolm Wilson
Managing Director

Did you remember to ask how the next years livery will look like and other important issues too?

[Mirek]

Tomi: It was general reply, nothing to do with particular questions. No need to discuss it here.

[Helstar]

Next stop, Ferrari :up:
?? care to explain, I don't get it

[alexlake]

]Tomi: It was general reply, nothing to do with particular questions. No need to discuss it here.

I think it was pretty good a reply was sent! :)

[Mirek]

Well, I appreciate the fact he replied. No question about it ;) But as it was general reply on all emails, it doesn't answer any particular questions and therefore some more disscussion about it is unnercessary.

[Buzz Lightyear]

]Well, I appreciate the fact he replied. No question about it ;) But as it was general reply on all emails, it doesn't answer any particular questions and therefore some more disscussion about it is unnercessary.

Malcolm 1 - Mirek Fric 0

[Leon]

]Well, I appreciate the fact he replied. No question about it ;) But as it was general reply on all emails, it doesn't answer any particular questions and therefore some more disscussion about it is unnercessary.

It reminds me the replies I was getting from Eurosport during 1998-2001 when I was (trying to) follow their schedule fro the WRC and live coverages. I will never forget the live coverage of the SS in Finland 1999 (the one where Auriol retired from the actual enent from a non scoring position in order to prepare his Corolla and take the 3 points from this SS) where instead of the SS they showed Motogp...

[Zes]

WRC cars are obsolete in 2010 anyway (at least, that's what the FIA wants). Currently the cars are way better than Subaru and Suzuki and I wonder if they will loose that advantage in just one year.
Not allowing to use their name, is that a problem? They could still run the cars and/or call it M-Sport-BP-Stobart-Abbi-Dabbi or something like that.

Maybe not, but what if Ford decides not to homologate S2000 car? Which car would they call M-Sport-BP-Stobart-Abbi-Dabbi then?

[Mirek]

I just wanted to stop questions on Wilson's reply. Not to judge it anyhow...

[Tomi]

]I just wanted to stop questions on Wilson's reply. Not to judge it anyhow...

Yes and whats the point to post only the reply, without the stuff what he replyes to.

[Daniel]

Well the forum doesn't allow personal insults Tomi :p

[Tomi]

Well the forum doesn't allow personal insults Tomi :p
Lol thats true, but normally when people publish replys, they publish the questions too, its called journalist ethic. ;)

[Daniel]

Journalists? Ethics? Ha!

I was tempted to write an email but I knew there would be a standard reply so didn't bother. Plus i really don't care about the WRC now.......

[AndyRAC]

Journalists? Ethics? Ha!

I was tempted to write an email but I knew there would be a standard reply so didn't bother. Plus i really don't care about the WRC now.......

Ah, well, it's your loss - the WRC is such a happening and exciting sport you will be missing out.......



....he he!!

[Daniel]

Yeah. With up and comers like Conrad who builds his campaign on money built up from the oppression of his fellow countrymen, Al Qassimi who is useless, Matt who is wasting daddy's money and the ice cream team who are similarly craptastic :) I can't wait to see what the future brings! Wouldn't it be great to see the WRC going back to it's roots of not having coverage and being the preserve of rich people only and there being no professionalism? That'd be fantastic. :cheese: It would make for a good crash kings video though........

[N.O.T]

don't be so pesimistic......at the end of the day no official team currently emplys any useless dying dogs, and in the future it will be the same the real drivers will be in official teams and the garbage paying for a car. Of course with Mr Wilsons new age of tactics we might see one or two turists in official cars.

[RS]

Wilson should maybe approach Brembo to see if they want to be title sponsor in 2009.

[Nenukknak]

This thread seems to be occupied by some people who want to state their opinions over and over again, because they think they're so important and they won't rest till every one agrees.

But shortly my two cents. Ford/Wilson is absolutely right to have done what he has done. It is part of rallying and has always been, so I really don't see what the fuzz is about now.

Lancia did it all the time. Enlisting 6 or 7 privateers in San Remo with the Lancia 037 to create a gap between their front runners and the Audis on asphalt. Lancia melting ice in Monte Carlo, or switching tyres mid stage to gain an advantage. Putting down a helicopter to enforce teamorders.
Colin having to let Sainz in front at Subaru. KKK having to do the same for Miki. All great dramatic scenes.
Years from now this will be remembered as Ford trying everything to beat the frenchman Loeb. Nothing wrong with that. And certainly not the downfall of WRC. There are other reasons for that.

[Brother John]

This thread seems to be occupied by some people who want to state their opinions over and over again, because they think they're so important and they won't rest till every one agrees. :up: :s mokin:

[Kamikaze]

This thread seems to be occupied by some people who want to state their opinions over and over again, because they think they're so important and they won't rest till every one agrees.

But shortly my two cents. Ford/Wilson is absolutely right to have done what he has done. It is part of rallying and has always been, so I really don't see what the fuzz is about now.

Best post so far in this Thread, thank you !! :up:

[Mirek]

Yes and whats the point to post only the reply, without the stuff what he replyes to.

I understand Your stance. But since I also sent mr. Wilson something and got the same reply as MikeD, which didn't answer any particular question, I don't connect the mail anyhow to what MikeD wrote or didn't write. Only Your question seemed to be unnercessary to me. No offence on You. I rather shouldn't have react at all ;)

[jacko]

This thread seems to be occupied by some people who want to state their opinions over and over again, because they think they're so important and they won't rest till every one agrees.

But shortly my two cents. Ford/Wilson is absolutely right to have done what he has done. It is part of rallying and has always been, so I really don't see what the fuzz is about now.

Lancia did it all the time. Enlisting 6 or 7 privateers in San Remo with the Lancia 037 to create a gap between their front runners and the Audis on asphalt. Lancia melting ice in Monte Carlo, or switching tyres mid stage to gain an advantage. Putting down a helicopter to enforce teamorders.
Colin having to let Sainz in front at Subaru. KKK having to do the same for Miki. All great dramatic scenes.
Years from now this will be remembered as Ford trying everything to beat the frenchman Loeb. Nothing wrong with that. And certainly not the downfall of WRC. There are other reasons for that.

Right on!!
People here are frustrated of how things going on in the Wrc, but somethings you can't chance it.
I compare it with Schumacher's winning F1 period a few years back.
My biggist complain of the WRC are the 12 rounds compare to this year's 16 and the running-order on day2 &3.
Tactics you have and will always be a part of the game, no news here...
For the rest, the quality of the top drivers is good, but the quantity of the quality sucks...

[Camelopard]

Best post so far in this Thread, thank you !! :up:

I'll second that!

[AndyRAC]

Right on!!
People here are frustrated of how things going on in the Wrc, but somethings you can't chance it.
I compare it with Schumacher's winning F1 period a few years back.
My biggist complain of the WRC are the 12 rounds compare to this year's 16 and the running-order on day2 &3.
Tactics you have and will always be a part of the game, no news here...
For the rest, the quality of the top drivers is good, but the quantity of the quality sucks...

Frustrated yes, mainly because of the lack of leadership by thr F1A, who last week decided F1 must be saved, whilst delaying the WRC Promoter decision!!
Nothing wrong with 12 rounds - works out averaging 1 a month - just make each event special rather than 'just another Rally'.
Agree about the quality, but I'm sure there are 'quality' drivers out there, but they have no £$£$£$ :(

[N.O.T]

which part of the " WILSON USED TEAM ORDERS AFFECTING NOT ONLY HIS TEAM BUT AN INDEPENDENT ONE AS WELL" don't you understand ????

the fuss is not about team orders in general !!!!!!!!!

[Brother John]

which part of the " WILSON USED TEAM ORDERS AFFECTING NOT ONLY HIS TEAM BUT AN INDEPENDENT ONE AS WELL" don't you understand ????
the fuss is not about team orders in general !!!!!!!!!

Again and again, again, again and again the same! :dozey:
Nothing was hapend at all! :p :

[Kamikaze]

which part of the " WILSON USED TEAM ORDERS AFFECTING NOT ONLY HIS TEAM BUT AN INDEPENDENT ONE AS WELL" don't you understand ????

the fuss is not about team orders in general !!!!!!!!!

First it was the Tactics wich made Ford evil.
Then did Citroen the same and it was ok, they did only because Ford did it first :rolleyes:

Then was it the Teamorders wich made Ford evil.
A thing used by a lot a lot of Teams a lot of times over the Years.....

And now they are evil because another Team decided to Help them....

It is like it is, and those few People from this Forum can change absolut nothing !!!!
Even not if they evryday wrote the same things 10 or 20 times a Day....

[RS]

First it was the Tactics wich made Ford evil.
Then did Citroen the same and it was ok, they did only because Ford did it first :rolleyes:

Then was it the Teamorders wich made Ford evil.
A thing used by a lot a lot of Teams a lot of times over the Years.....

And now they are evil because another Team decided to Help them....



Haven't you just made a perfect case against Ford though? They've 'been up to it' all year.

Everyone knows why they did it, but I still find it quite sad and I don't like the team bosses attitude either.

At the end of the year, if Mikko does win the championship, will his fans or even Mikko himself believe he really deserved it? Now I'm waiting for the "driver with most points is champion" response, but really....

[ste898]

which part of the " WILSON USED TEAM ORDERS AFFECTING NOT ONLY HIS TEAM BUT AN INDEPENDENT ONE AS WELL" don't you understand ????

the fuss is not about team orders in general !!!!!!!!!

Calm down MAN!!!

a question for you....Who is the independent team you are talking about?

[Mirek]

Any team which is allowed to take points is independent enough not to be puppet to any other one. Otherwise it is no longer sport. If Mikko has some problem in Japan and there is 6 other Focuses infront of him, so what? We'll have realy pretty race with strongly deserved possitions and points in top eight?

The fact something is not forbidden doesn't mean it is good and everyone is obliged to agree and to keep quiet about it. If You want to watch WRC where there is one driver on top and puppet games on another places behind him, watch it. But that's way to hell unfortunately because soon noone have any interest in WRC.

In the years when there were much stronger competition than today it wasn't that critical. But in these days there is practicaly noone else than one king and Malcolm's puppets. And if they play chess instead of rallying, it becomes incredibly boring and uninteresting. Do You realy thing that's what WRC and rallying itself needs to get out of its crisis?

[jparker]

What about the reason for deploying these kind of tactics?
Tyres.
How many times Mikko had flat tyre this season? 4-5?
I can only remember 1 for Seb.
Stupid rules = bye bye Ford :)

[Nenukknak]

] If You want to watch WRC where there is one driver on top and puppet games on another places behind him, watch it. But that's way to hell unfortunately because soon noone have any interest in WRC.


Ooooh this discussion is about watching the WRC, in that case I'm out. Haven't watched WRC for ages now :p (it's actually not a joke :( ).

But I think the crazy airing times (if any), the lack of spectacle, the lack of endurance, the lack of competitive manufacturers/drivers, rallies that are alike, and all the other things lacking that makes a real rally, might have a bit more to do with that.

Solve the above things and the "problem" with teamorders will largely take care of itself.

[jonkka]

Haven't watched WRC for ages now :p (it's actually not a joke :( ).

But I think the crazy airing times (if any)

Ever heard of a VCR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCR)?

[Daniel]

Nenuknakinen I agree sorting other things would sort this problem out but this just makes the WRC look worse to potential manufacturers and means it will just get worse. Don't bother with the VCR it's not worth watching.

[Brother John]

Nenuknakinen I agree sorting other things would sort this problem out but this just makes the WRC look worse to potential manufacturers and means it will just get worse.

If you are not intrested on WRC, and have to tell only negative matter, why are you then here?
As rally fans, we have nothing to do with how they (F.I.A.) solve their problems. You make this thread a joke with repeating negative post and keep people away from the forum. Therefore actual you do here the same with the forum what the F.I.A. does with WRC. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

If you are not intrested on WRC, and have to tell only negative matter, why are you then here?
As rally fans, we have nothing to do with how they (F.I.A.) solve their problems. You make this thread a joke with repeating negative post and keep people away from the forum. Therefore actual you do here the same with the forum what the F.I.A. does with WRC. :rolleyes:

Aren't you the guy who comes on all the Dakar threads and complains about it even though you don't like it? :laugh:

The WRC is in trouble. You can either sit in your chair watching the rallies and not see it coming and be surprised OR you can realise that there are problems which need to be dealt with for the series to continue in a sustainable manner. If being realistic makes people go then I'm sorry. Life isn't all fun and games. Life can be **** sometimes and living in denial doesn't make it worse. If people can't handle people pointing out flaws in the WRC then perhaps they should see if www.wrcsycophants.com (http://www.wrcsycophants.com) is available and set up their own forum where any negativity towards the WRC is banned. Meanwhile I shall continue to live in the real world....

These inter-team orders aren't the biggest problem for the WRC but in the last week they have been a problem for a lot of people and it's worsened an already bad situation.

[BDunnell]

If you are not intrested on WRC, and have to tell only negative matter, why are you then here?
As rally fans, we have nothing to do with how they (F.I.A.) solve their problems. You make this thread a joke with repeating negative post and keep people away from the forum. Therefore actual you do here the same with the forum what the F.I.A. does with WRC. :rolleyes:

With respect, I think this is rubbish. Do you ever voice negative opinions on anything you are interested in but don't have a direct say in? I can't believe that you don't - or anyone else, for that matter.

Being an enthusiast of something doesn't mean you always have to be blindly positive about it.

[AndyRAC]

My two penceworth, the WRC has fantastic potential - far more than any other Motorsport - for the simple fact of the places it visits/or could visit.
However, it has got major problems, which simply can’t be glossed over. The sooner everybody concerned with the sport accepts this, the better – I still don’t think people realise just how bad it is. The F1A delaying the Promoter role was unbelievable, especially when Max then said he wanted to save F1.

[Nenukknak]

Ever heard of a VCR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCR)?

VCR won't do much good when you don't know at what time to set it. Times are nearly always wrong.

And it's like Daniel said, it really isn't worth watching (This is my own personal opinion). And this is not only to do with the championship itself, also the quality of coverage is rubbish.

[Brother John]

Do you ever voice negative opinions on anything you are interested in but don't have a direct say in? I can't believe that you don't - or anyone else, for that matter.
Being an enthusiast of something doesn't mean you always have to be blindly positive about it.

Normally are I the one being not enthusiast and negativeabout a lot of things! :s mokin: :D

[jonkka]

VCR won't do much good when you don't know at what time to set it. Times are nearly always wrong.

Regular tape can cover three hours, extra long tape four hours, half-speed tapes twice that and DVD recorder with a hard drive at least eight hours. Since I first got to be the victim of deferred show I've never trusted published times, I record full eight hours hoping to catch the show somewhere in the middle of it. WRC video archive isn't something I take chances with.


And it's like Daniel said, it really isn't worth watching (This is my own personal opinion). And this is not only to do with the championship itself, also the quality of coverage is rubbish.

Now this is entirely different question altogether. Thanks to great people I've had a chance to sample Dave's WRC coverage hosted by Neil Cole and I do have to say that it's ten times better than the traditionally good Finnish TV coverage (which, admittedly, has lately moved to commercial channel from very good public service YLE channel).

What comes to the championship... well...

[Woodeye]

And it's like Daniel said, it really isn't worth watching (This is my own personal opinion). And this is not only to do with the championship itself, also the quality of coverage is rubbish.

I got to agree. :( What's the point of watching something when you already know what going to happen? I haven't followed a single rally after Finland this year from TV which wasn't the case few years ago.

And there's not as many people watching the rallies in this forum either. Few really enthusiastic followers and one broken record complaining about sick dogs and scared little boys.

I'm leading the pickems now. I think I've used about the same order for every rally. You really don't need to know too much to get the order right. Which is sad.

[jonkka]

I'm leading the pickems now. I think I've used about the same order for every rally. You really don't need to know too much to get the order right. Which is sad.

This pretty much sums it up, unfortunately. If the only thing wrong with WRC was lack of depth...