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View Full Version : Fuji - 2 stewards penalties I don't understand



old friend
12th October 2008, 12:40
Has anyone ever seen a driver penalised for forcing another driver off the track in the 1st corner? This is another anti racing decsion by the FIA F1 stewards that not only affects F1 but eventually gets filtered down to lower catagories dumbing down the sport further.

The other is the Seb B penalty. How that was Seb's fault I have no idea.

Is it my imagination or have there been more stewards decisions this year than ever before?

ioan
12th October 2008, 12:45
There have been also more transgressions of the rules this season than ever before.

dwboogityfan
12th October 2008, 13:14
Despite being a Lewis Hamilton fan I can see why the stewards gave him a drive through penalty as his first corner move could have taken alot of cars out of the race.
The Bourdais decision is once again another farcical decision taken by the race stewards and surely heightens the call for stewards to be former race drivers. If anything I thought that Massa was at fault for this collision for clearly cutting in on Bourdais.

christophulus
12th October 2008, 13:23
The Bourdais decision is once again another farcical decision taken by the race stewards and surely heightens the call for stewards to be former race drivers.

I'm not sure that would help the situation, because then we'd just have "oh, X is clearly biased against Hamilton because he used to race for Ferrari" etc etc.

As I've already said, releasing onboard footage, and I guess also telemetry would make the decisions easier to agree or disagree with

jonny hurlock
12th October 2008, 13:38
Despite being a Lewis Hamilton fan I can see why the stewards gave him a drive through penalty as his first corner move could have taken alot of cars out of the race.
The Bourdais decision is once again another farcical decision taken by the race stewards and surely heightens the call for stewards to be former race drivers. If anything I thought that Massa was at fault for this collision for clearly cutting in on Bourdais.

Hamilton penalty may have been for dangerous driving at the first corner, I think thats justified for the penalty, With Bourdais 25 second penalty thats totally wrong it was massa fault and they never touch imo, its just another stupid decision by the stewards again, be better of if 3 dumb blondes would do a better job. I hope STR will appeal, but I doult it because of the ferrari engines they got.

seppefan
12th October 2008, 13:45
Berger has to contest this incredible penalty. totally wrong and makes a joke of the Championship.

Dave B
12th October 2008, 13:56
Recent history teaches us that drive-throughs (even applied after the race) cannot be appealed. :s

ArrowsFA1
12th October 2008, 14:08
There have been also more transgressions of the rules this season than ever before.
That's an interesting one. Have there? Or are the stewards penalising drivers more often than they did before?

ioan
12th October 2008, 14:14
With Bourdais 25 second penalty thats totally wrong it was massa fault and they never touch imo,

Watch this:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKvZE0iuU8

At 0:06 they touched. Bourdais' car front end hit Massa's car rear end. You can see how the STR twitched while the Ferrari started spinning.

Given the position of the cars at that moment Bourdais has been overtaken and should have yielded the position. He wasn't squeezed out of the track either, and at the moment they touched he was close to the middle of the track.

IMO the Frenchman carried to much speed into Turn 1 given that he had a car on his outside. His mistake and his penalty.

I tried to be as objective as possible given the material we have at our disposal.

Nikki Katz
12th October 2008, 14:15
I do sorta side with the stewards about the Hamilton incident, it's just luck that he didn't wipe out half the field. I think that when Schumacher pulled similar moves in the past that those should have been punished too.

But while I'm not surprised, I am still pretty horrified by the Bourdais penalty. I'm not sure what he's supposed to have done wrong. It just seems like a random penalty being thrown out to a driver who dared be on the track at the same time as a Ferrari. It was Massa who caused the accident, and Massa who suffered, therefore no penalty is needed.

Also, as fun as it was to watch, Massa's move on Webber by driving over the no-drive strips in the pit lane looked very dangerous! Fortunately everyone had finished their pit stops by this point.

christophulus
12th October 2008, 14:24
Watch this:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKvZE0iuU8

At 0:06 they touched. Bourdais' car front end hit Massa's car rear end. You can see how the STR twitched while the Ferrari started spinning.

Given the position of the cars at that moment Bourdais has been overtaken and should have yielded the position. He wasn't squeezed out of the track either, and at the moment they touched he was close to the middle of the track.

IMO the Frenchman carried to much speed into Turn 1 given that he had a car on his outside. His mistake and his penalty.

I tried to be as objective as possible given the material we have at our disposal.

Good find but it's still pretty inconclusive.

An alternative reading of it is that Bourdais was holding as tight a line as he physically could do, and that Massa closed in a fraction too much and caught his front wheel. Surely Massa should have made more effort to hold a wider line, given that there was a car inside of him.

Also, Bourdais may not have been in the middle of the track, his car was dragged out wide by Massa's contact with him which is why he appears to be some distance from the inside kerb.

I guess we'll never know for certain though!

ArrowsFA1
12th October 2008, 14:28
IMO the Frenchman carried to much speed into Turn 1 given that he had a car on his outside. His mistake and his penalty.
Bourdais:

"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was. I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner. I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

I think Bourdais could see Massa and tried to avoid contact. I think Massa assumed he was clear of Bourdais and turned across him. We've seen this kind of incident before this year, and the new higher cockpit sides have been given as a contributory factor.

Rollo
12th October 2008, 14:36
It looks like Massa has cut the front of Bordais off. Honestly where is Bordais supposed to go? Off Of the track? No wait, that would have also given him a penalty.

philipbain
12th October 2008, 14:38
The Bourdais penalty is just utterly non-sensical and is yet more evidence of the FIA's massive Ferrari bias. The FIA's manipulation of F1 digusts me these days, the only way F1 can really redeem it's self is to break away from the FIA, after all F1 doesnt need the FIA to legitimise it's self but the receprical is certainly true.

Massa was punished lightly for a move that was akin to Prost's move on Senna at Suzuka in '89 in similar circumstances, blatant in it's execution and to the benefit of the driver executing the move.

If Massa wins this years title it will be a meaningless championship gifted by numerous assists from the FIA and will set the sport back years in terms of popularity and credibility.

ioan
12th October 2008, 14:51
Good find but it's still pretty inconclusive.

An alternative reading of it is that Bourdais was holding as tight a line as he physically could do, and that Massa closed in a fraction too much and caught his front wheel. Surely Massa should have made more effort to hold a wider line, given that there was a car inside of him.

Also, Bourdais may not have been in the middle of the track, his car was dragged out wide by Massa's contact with him which is why he appears to be some distance from the inside kerb.

I guess we'll never know for certain though!

Bourdais was not anymore on the kerb when the contact occurred. If the contact would have been so strong that the Ferrari would have dragged the STR on the middle of the track than the STR would have lost it's front suspension, no question about it. In fact the wheels didn't touch wheels but rather bodywork.

I thought about why Bourdais had that trajectory instead of staying parallel to the Ferrari and I came to the conclusion that it has to do with him being overoptimistic with a heavy car on cold tires.

Honestly I suppose his car wasn't yet stable enough and as a result he drifted into the Ferrari.

This could have been classed as a racing incident based on the info I have, but the stewards had more than this at disposal.

As for those saying it was Massa's fault, I understand their frustration.

Caroline
12th October 2008, 14:53
Massa was punished lightly for a move that was akin to Prost's move on Senna at Suzuka in '89 in similar circumstances, blatant in it's execution and to the benefit of the driver executing the move.
.

I can't agree. Massa was pushing hard. I don't think it was blatant, he hit Hamilton and could've ruined his own race in the process. His race ended in the tail end of the points, hardly a great idea if planned.

ioan
12th October 2008, 14:54
Bourdais:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

I think Bourdais could see Massa and tried to avoid contact. I think Massa assumed he was clear of Bourdais and turned across him. We've seen this kind of incident before this year, and the new higher cockpit sides have been given as a contributory factor.

If you watch the video you will see that the fastest line out of the corner wasn't to the right but to the left, so why would have Massa went into the wrong direction given that he already was ahead and on the race line?

ArrowsFA1
12th October 2008, 15:03
I thought about why Bourdais had that trajectory instead of staying parallel to the Ferrari and I came to the conclusion that it has to do with him being overoptimistic with a heavy car on cold tires.

Honestly I suppose his car wasn't yet stable enough and as a result he drifted into the Ferrari.
I think that's a reasonable possible explanation, except he didn't appear to drift into the Ferrari.

If you watch the video you will see that the fastest line out of the corner wasn't to the right but to the left, so why would have Massa went into the wrong direction given that he already was ahead and on the race line?
But Massa wasn't ahead, or at least clearly ahead enough to take the line he took. There was room on the outside that Felipe could have used. I don't think Bourdais had any more room to use on the inside.

But, the stewards clearly had a different view.

ioan
12th October 2008, 15:15
But Massa wasn't ahead, or at least clearly ahead enough to take the line he took. There was room on the outside that Felipe could have used. I don't think Bourdais had any more room to use on the inside.

They were at least even and given that Bourdais took the inside line, what line was supposed Massa to take?
And he left enough room or Bourdais, enough to not push him out of the track, that's why I don't understand why when Bourdais had half the track at his disposal he ran into the Ferrari.

Daniel
12th October 2008, 15:41
They were at least even and given that Bourdais took the inside line, what line was supposed Massa to take?

The line that Bourdais wasn't on perhaps? :)

ioan
12th October 2008, 15:48
The line that Bourdais wasn't on perhaps? :)

That was lame, he was in front of Bourdais by the time the contact happened. So why was Bourdais taking the line on which Massa was? :)

Daniel
12th October 2008, 15:50
That was lame, he was in front of Bourdais by the time the contact happened. So why was Bourdais taking the line on which Massa was? :)
Dude :) You are joking right?

Just because you're in front doesn't give you licence to do whatever you want :)

Chris Herr
12th October 2008, 16:01
This looks like a racing incident to me if not Massa's fault. Massa at least had the ability to avoid the incident. Bourdais seemed to be minding his own business, holding an inside line. Is it a group of people who make these decisions or just Charles Whiting ? Do they publish their thought process? Unfortunately close racing lends itself to these situations.

ioan
12th October 2008, 16:27
Dude :) You are joking right?

Just because you're in front doesn't give you licence to do whatever you want :)

Well, he didn't do anything, he stayed on the right and left Bourdais even more space, and the result was that the STR couldn't stay on half of the track and collided with the Ferrari.

So, what exactly made you so angry? :rolleyes:

markabilly
12th October 2008, 17:02
For me the real contributing factor is how he exited the pits and then got or attmpted to manitain his position. Indeed, that must have been aprt of the reason or else SB would not have said:


Bourdais:



Originally Posted by http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=0#post0)
"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was. I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner. I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

what he should have done, is NOT put himself there in the first place.

Dave B
12th October 2008, 17:05
For me the real contributing factor is how he exited the pits and then got or attmpted to manitain his position. ... what he should have done, is NOT put himself there in the first place.
So should he have just waited like a good little boy while somebody he was racing for position flew by?

old friend
12th October 2008, 17:11
So you are suggesting that Seb doesn't have the right to fight with Massa....?

markabilly
12th October 2008, 17:12
So should he have just waited like a good little boy while somebody he was racing for position flew by?


Not always but the burden is on him when exiting to not be cutting another car off, when the SB does not have matching speed and that is what he was attempting to do.

Burden was on him to avoid the accident and get in the racing line safely without blocking.

Otherwise the penalty makes no sense.......(but of course some would say that when the FIA acts, making sense is not a requirement)

Jag_Warrior
12th October 2008, 18:04
This looks like a racing incident to me if not Massa's fault. Massa at least had the ability to avoid the incident. Bourdais seemed to be minding his own business, holding an inside line. Is it a group of people who make these decisions or just Charles Whiting ? Do they publish their thought process? Unfortunately close racing lends itself to these situations.

I agree with that. I saw it as a racing incident, if not Massa's issue for not clearing Bourdais. But as I went to bed, I figured there'd be a penalty and I figured it would be on Bourdais.

Charges of favoritism aside, there do exist "racing incidents". But this season, the stewards have intervened at every turn (literally) and IMO, have been allowed to decide too much of this year's championship. In my opinion, stewards should, for the most part, be like children: seen and not heard.

ioan
12th October 2008, 18:16
So you are suggesting that Seb doesn't have the right to fight with Massa....?

Sure he has, after he learns to drive properly a F1 car on cold tires and with a full tank. Than maybe he wouldn't drift out of the corner and take th eovertaker with him.

yodasarmpit
12th October 2008, 18:37
I fully accept Hamilton's penalty, but Seb B's was unwarranted.

I honestly cannot understand how anyone could blame Seb for his collision.

I don't believe in any FIA/Ferrari conspiracy, however I now understand why some people do.

dpcw_wsm
12th October 2008, 18:38
Another potentially good formula 1 race with overtaking, competing and racing incidents ruined by the fia’s biasness towards Ferrari.

Hamilton was a doughnut at the start, he should have just let kimi and kova go but it was a racing incident. He did not force kimi off the track, kimi just got sucked into his late braking and followed. Things like this happen week in week out in all forms of motorsport.

However, massa illegally punts Lewis off the track after breaking to late and lewis takes racing line, massa cuts corner hits Lewis, spins him round and ruins his race. Massa should have got black flag but they slap him with a drive trough and then think, ohh weve gotta give Ferrari a penalty lets make one up for lewis.

As for the Bourdais incident. He came out of the pits in front of massa, he had racing line and was entitled to be there. Massa was not concentrating and being his usual crap driver when there’s traffic and ran into him. I don’t think there should have been any penalties it was just a racing incident but to give Bourdais a penalty cos massa can only drive when he’s out front in clean air is ludicrous.

And where was massas penalty for the final points pass when he went over the while line to take webber. The track is defined by the two white lines. Going over them is the same as jumping the corner but the red car gets away with it again.

Another typical example of how the Fia short Ferrari out. Its being going on since 1996, max berrnie and tott done some kind of deal back then and its wrecking the sport.

This has got to stop. Every one can see it apart from Ferrari fans who some how seam to think the Fia are at best fair or at worst against them. Are you insane???!!!

Ohh and before you say im a McLauren fan, yeah I like them English team and all that but im actually a Williams fan.

I’m just praying FIA Don’t get MotoGP cos they will ruin that as well.

THE_LIBERATOR
12th October 2008, 18:40
I think the stewards enquires should be filmed, or at least we should be given access to the audio of that decision making process at the time. Because at the moment it seems like they don't really have to justify themselves with any thought. It would avoid any "creative decisions" if they were live & on the spot.

christophulus
12th October 2008, 18:43
I think the stewards enquires should be filmed, or at least we should be given access to the audio of that decision making process at the time. Because at the moment it seems like they don't really have to justify themselves with any thought. It would avoid any "creative decisions" if they were live & on the spot.

..or just make them release the data they used to come to the decision, and their reasons behind it. Saying Bourdais has got a penalty for "making contact with Felipe Massa" tells us absolutely nothing.

Onboard camera footage and telemetry would settle the vast majority of disputes.


Toro Rosso’s Sebastien Bourdais has had 25 seconds added to his Japanese Grand Prix race time as penalty for making contact with Ferrari’s Felipe Massa. The stewards’ decision drops Bourdais from sixth to 10th in the results and elevates Massa to seventh.

Bourdais was rejoining the race after his second pit stop on lap 50 when Massa attempted to pass around the outside at Turn One. The pair made contact, tipping the Brazilian into a spin. Massa subsequently continued, finishing in eighth place.

Where does it say Bourdais was at fault?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8520.html

Sandfly
12th October 2008, 18:48
F1 is rapidly becoming "motorsports entertainment", along the lines of NASCAR and the IRL. The interference of the race directors/stewards/FIA is revealing clear bias toward a result - Close points race with Ferrari on the move. The SB penalty is beyond ridiculous. Massa clearly had the ability to slow a bit, go wider, leave room - and STILL take the position as he had more speed. He simply ran into Sebastian. I would expect that a driver of his calibre could avoid such a mistake. F1 is losing integrity with this type of action by stewards - after the event. Without appeal. Nice

yodasarmpit
12th October 2008, 18:49
Where does it say Bourdais was at fault?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8520.html???????????????????????????????????
I think it is implied with the 25 second penalty.

truefan72
12th October 2008, 18:51
FI and the stewards a a complete joke.

Massa causes the incident and not only gets away with it, but is rewarded by another point by the bloody stewards.

Give me a break. Everyone in the entire world knew that Massa was going to be penalized for the incident but instead he gets rewarded. I don"t ever want to hear from someone. else that the stewards are not in the tank for Ferrari. It is beyond comical at this point and a total farce of a series.

The verdict is obvious.
If you are Ferrari, you can swereve around and ram into the back of a car and not receive a fine. You can deliberately punt of your closest rival from contention and serve only the minimal of penalties, you can then go ahead and overtake a car outside of the racetrack and get nothing, you can hit a car, potentially cause damage and instead the stewards will penalize the other car for the audacity of being on the racetrack keeping to ones line and racing for position with you. Twice Massa got into the car ahead of him and racing for points!!! and they have the neanderthal balls to penalize the victim
If anything Massa should have been penalized more severely for his 2nd reckless driving in the same race.

utter rubbish. and indefensible

DazzlaF1
12th October 2008, 18:59
Hi, Back after a long sabbatical, but i need to say my piece on this.

After seeing the TV footage, Bourdais did absolutely nothing wrong, it was his line into the corner, he had right of way, he could'nt go anywhere else because of his pit lane exit. Massa simply barged into the side of him, and theres no suprise with the resulting ruling, because he spun and lost time, he gets the sympathy vote from the stewards.

WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER BO****KS

If any ruling showed a clear bias towards Ferrari on the FIA's part, then this was it, its thanks to their bias that Sebastien Bourdais's excellent drive today didnt give him the 3 points he so richly deserved. This makes it official, it pains me to say it but the sport we love has now descended into a total farce, and all to keep a snivelling greedy Italian (Mr De Montezemolo) happy.

Sad sad day for Grand Prix Racing

jens
12th October 2008, 19:09
Talking about Hamilton, then there are clashes or wide-runnings in Turn1 in almost every Grand Prix. Where have the penalties been? Can you answer? How can a driver error be penalized? After Monaco it was argued that Räikkönen should not be penalized, because be simply made a mistake and we would set a dangerous precedent if we started penalizing drivers for mistakes. OK, I understand. Why now? And besides this with his mistake Hamilton didn't take anyone out. If Hamilton's mistake was worth a penalty, then with this logic one of the worst start incidents of all times - DC at Spa in 1998, when he managed to destroy at least 13 rival cars - should have ended with a race ban until the end of the season.

If you think Hamilton's penalty was justified, I will start reminding you after every Grand Prix that this or that driver should be penalized, because he slightly hit somebody in Turn1 or ran wide. We can start already with Fuji - where was the investigation about the incident involving Coulthard/Nakajima/other parties involved. :rolleyes: Oh and by the way Kovalainen ran wide too - penalty? :confused:

Tonieke
12th October 2008, 19:13
Talking about Hamilton, then there are clashes or wide-runnings in Turn1 in almost every Grand Prix. Where have the penalties been? Can you answer? How can a driver error be penalized? After Monaco it was argued that Räikkönen should not be penalized, because be simply made a mistake and we would set a dangerous precedent if we started penalizing drivers for mistakes. OK, I understand. Why now? And besides this with his mistake Hamilton didn't take anyone out. If Hamilton's mistake was worth a penalty, then with this logic one of the worst start incidents of all times - DC at Spa in 1998, when he managed to destroy at least 13 rival cars - should have ended with a race ban until the end of the season.

If you think Hamilton's penalty was justified, I will start reminding you after every Grand Prix that this or that driver should be penalized, because he slightly hit somebody in Turn1 or ran wide. We can start already with Fuji - where was the investigation about the incident involving Coulthard/Nakajima/other parties involved. :rolleyes:


and fe..why was only Lewis penalised and not also fe Heiki ? where is the logic in this ?

dpcw_wsm
12th October 2008, 19:26
the FIA are bent they single out there favourite team and penalise any1 that gets close 2 them , this is reiuning the sport the FIA NEED SACKING AND THE SPORT NEEDS 2 FIND A NEW NON BIAS GOVERENING BODY!!!!!

old friend
12th October 2008, 20:23
Talking about Hamilton, then there are clashes or wide-runnings in Turn1 in almost every Grand Prix. Where have the penalties been? Can you answer? How can a driver error be penalized? After Monaco it was argued that Räikkönen should not be penalized, because be simply made a mistake and we would set a dangerous precedent if we started penalizing drivers for mistakes. OK, I understand. Why now? And besides this with his mistake Hamilton didn't take anyone out. If Hamilton's mistake was worth a penalty, then with this logic one of the worst start incidents of all times - DC at Spa in 1998, when he managed to destroy at least 13 rival cars - should have ended with a race ban until the end of the season.

If you think Hamilton's penalty was justified, I will start reminding you after every Grand Prix that this or that driver should be penalized, because he slightly hit somebody in Turn1 or ran wide. We can start already with Fuji - where was the investigation about the incident involving Coulthard/Nakajima/other parties involved. :rolleyes: Oh and by the way Kovalainen ran wide too - penalty? :confused:

Spot on with this post. For me the worst thing (after the FIA putting the sport into disrupt for the 2nd time in a few races - that's worth £100m a pop isn't it?) is that stewards at lower levels will now feel that this must be penalised. It will happen and it will be a huge shame!!

christophulus
12th October 2008, 20:33
???????????????????????????????????
I think it is implied with the 25 second penalty.

I know it's implied, and they obviously gave him the penalty. The point I was trying to make was that they don't explain the reasoning. Saying that Bourdais "clipped the back of Massa's car after drifting out into him", or something more coherent than that would have been a bit more useful.

(That's not my interpretation of events but it'd be nice to know what the FIA thought)

THE_LIBERATOR
12th October 2008, 20:52
..or just make them release the data they used to come to the decision, and their reasons behind it. Saying Bourdais has got a penalty for "making contact with Felipe Massa" tells us absolutely nothing.

Onboard camera footage and telemetry would settle the vast majority of disputes.After the fact yes, but it doesn't stop such idiotic choices being made during races. A system where we could all hear the choices being made & the reasons as they happened, would surely make them think more carefully about their choices & their justifications.

Because at the moment they just don't seem to care, make it a public process & then see if it's the same. If this faceless authority could be held personally accountable it would make things much more clear.

makt
12th October 2008, 22:06
Has anyone ever seen a driver penalised for forcing another driver off the track in the 1st corner? This is another anti racing decsion by the FIA F1 stewards that not only affects F1 but eventually gets filtered down to lower catagories dumbing down the sport further.

The other is the Seb B penalty. How that was Seb's fault I have no idea.

Is it my imagination or have there been more stewards decisions this year than ever before?

Saddly after punishing any bad boy, you dont want to see is him make it to the top... while still serving his time...( at end of pit lane)...
It seems the way to win any stewards decision is to be in a red car with same letters in your name, and the organizers...Ferrari

makt
12th October 2008, 22:12
Yes, FIA...errr , Ferrari, spot the link, $$$$,
and arnt the FIA getting their new guys from Ferrari now!!!!
Red cars cant do wrong. anyone elseon the track must be in the wrong whatever.... cant let a team under punishment win champ..
Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

yodasarmpit
12th October 2008, 23:33
I know it's implied, and they obviously gave him the penalty. The point I was trying to make was that they don't explain the reasoning. Saying that Bourdais "clipped the back of Massa's car after drifting out into him", or something more coherent than that would have been a bit more useful.

(That's not my interpretation of events but it'd be nice to know what the FIA thought)It would be nice if the stewards had to justify their decisions, but I just don't see it happening :(

ioan
12th October 2008, 23:59
Saddly after punishing any bad boy, you dont want to see is him make it to the top... while still serving his time...( at end of pit lane)...
It seems the way to win any stewards decision is to be in a red car with same letters in your name, and the organizers...Ferrari

Let it out my friend, let all that frustration out! :laugh:

Feeling any better now?

christophulus
13th October 2008, 00:03
It would be nice if the stewards had to justify their decisions, but I just don't see it happening :(

That's exactly my point, if they just provided some evidence..

Well, we can always dream :)

ioan
13th October 2008, 00:05
Yes, FIA...errr , Ferrari, spot the link, $$$$,
and arnt the FIA getting their new guys from Ferrari now!!!!
Red cars cant do wrong. anyone elseon the track must be in the wrong whatever.... cant let a team under punishment win champ..
Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

I'll send you some supplementary "!!!" if you need some more of them. For free!

Jag_Warrior
13th October 2008, 00:25
Talking about Hamilton, then there are clashes or wide-runnings in Turn1 in almost every Grand Prix. Where have the penalties been? Can you answer? How can a driver error be penalized? After Monaco it was argued that Räikkönen should not be penalized, because be simply made a mistake and we would set a dangerous precedent if we started penalizing drivers for mistakes. OK, I understand. Why now? And besides this with his mistake Hamilton didn't take anyone out. If Hamilton's mistake was worth a penalty, then with this logic one of the worst start incidents of all times - DC at Spa in 1998, when he managed to destroy at least 13 rival cars - should have ended with a race ban until the end of the season.

If you think Hamilton's penalty was justified, I will start reminding you after every Grand Prix that this or that driver should be penalized, because he slightly hit somebody in Turn1 or ran wide. We can start already with Fuji - where was the investigation about the incident involving Coulthard/Nakajima/other parties involved. :rolleyes: Oh and by the way Kovalainen ran wide too - penalty? :confused:

During the post-race interview, Kimi said that Kovalainen actually hit him. If true, then yes, it is odd that only one driver was selected for a penalty. This must be something new, or Ralf Schumacher and David Coulthard would have been banned from the sport years ago.

It's just more silliness from the FIA that cheapens the sport, IMO. I like F1 (as a sport) more than I like any single driver or team. Over the past 12 months, the FIA and Max Mosley have done more things to make F1 look bad than any team or driver ever could.

I don't know about Bernie, but Max's time has passed. He needs to go ASAP.

ioan
13th October 2008, 00:30
I don't know about Bernie, but Max's time has passed. He needs to go ASAP.

Max better take the small guy along when he leaves or he will destroy F1 for good with his greed and his latest brilliant cost cutting ideas.

yodasarmpit
13th October 2008, 00:34
I've just watched the first corner incident several times, and I'm now confused as to why Hamilton got a drive through, it was Heikki that caused Kimi to go off track.

I still think Hamilton overcooked it and made a dumb move, but on the evidence I fail to see where the penalty came from.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan01.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan02.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan03.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan04.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan05.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/japan06.jpg

Obviously we will all have different opinions, but after rewatching it I'm less convinced there was a need for a penalty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMBr9zkaQh0

christophulus
13th October 2008, 00:40
I've just watched the first corner incident several times, and I'm now confused as to why Hamilton got a drive through, it was Heikki that caused Kimi to go off track.

I still think Hamilton overcooked it and made a dumb move, but on the evidence I fail to see where the penalty came from.

I still haven't figured this one out either, especially when you look at the first corners of pretty much every F1 race. Take Spa last year (just off the top of my head) where it could be argued Alonso forced Hamilton off - I'm sure there are many interpretations of this but the end result was no penalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqefAwhwJP0

At Fuji, there was definitely NO contact between Hamilton and Raikkonen, which makes the whole thing a bit more puzzling, as it could equally have been deemed a racing incident.

The F1 website has one view on it:


Polesitter Hamilton was penalised for forcing Kimi Raikkonen wide into Turn One at the start. The Ferrari got a better getaway and was in front when Hamilton jinked right, almost hitting team mate Heikki Kovalainen in the process, and then locked up under braking. He understeered wide, flat-spotting his front tyres and leaving Raikkonen nowhere to go, dropping the Finn to seventh place.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8519.html

ShiftingGears
13th October 2008, 01:22
I still haven't figured this one out either, especially when you look at the first corners of pretty much every F1 race. Take Spa last year (just off the top of my head) where it could be argued Alonso forced Hamilton off - I'm sure there are many interpretations of this but the end result was no penalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqefAwhwJP0

At Fuji, there was definitely NO contact between Hamilton and Raikkonen, which makes the whole thing a bit more puzzling, as it could equally have been deemed a racing incident.

The F1 website has one view on it:



http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8519.html

Yes, but the F1 website has a conflict of interest, in that they have to make stewards decisions seem like they aren't farcical.

You'd hope that they'd see that Kovalainen was the one who forced Kimi off.

Heres a major problem with tarmac runoff. It leaves the drivers more likely to run others off, since it essentially becomes an extension of the track. If that was Suzuka (which I am hoping isn't iced with tarmac runoff now...) no-one would shove each other off with as little regard, because they know that they'd get stuck in the gravel, and they think, what if that was me?

I don't think anyone on the grid is a dirty driver. But tarmac runoff certainly facilitates more reckless driving.

AJP
13th October 2008, 04:07
I too believe that Lewis should not have been penalise for the turn 1 incident.
He is not the one who hit Kimi!! Sure, he made a bad start and failed dismally in trying to rectify his start, but that is what drivers do...they try to win.
Even Kimi is aware that Heikki was involved in the ACTUAL contact.

Lewis' bone head move at turn one was exactly that...Boneheaded..
and he penalised himself by flat spotting his fronts and having to pit. The red mist certainly had a trance on him yet again and has severely compromised his world championship, as now he has to pull off some very good racing in order to get the title, something his skills can do, but mind set may not be able to do, as his level of maturity could well not be there to pull it off. But time will tell.

Both Kubica and Alonso said that many drivers missed the the braking points due to cold tyres and brakes, and at the end of the day, it was just a really untidy start to the race. But you get that every once in a while when you have 8-10 cars moving around trying to get to the corner in first place, especially when you have a few drivers stuffing their launch off the grid, leaving opportunities open to many other drivers.

Rollo
13th October 2008, 04:41
When Kimi forced Lewis off the track at Spa, Kimi did hit Lewis.
The penalty is entirely consistent, because the same car was penalised in the interests of ratings and TV revenues.

You have to remember that the FIA are esentially playing Calvinball, and because the actual penalties can not be appealed, there aint a damn thing anyone can do about except if you happen to be president of FOTA and act on "behalf" of the teams.

ShiftingGears
13th October 2008, 04:42
I'd like to know who the stewards are for that race. I bet none of them were racing drivers.

Dave B
13th October 2008, 09:36
As per yodasarmpit's pictures, it's clear that Lewis made an absolute balls-up of his first corner and forced Kimi to take avoiding action. It was clearly the two Finns who made contact: Hamilton was already half a car length ahead at the time. If anybody should be punished it's HK.

However I've seen this happen at the start of pretty much every Grand Prix I've watched since the late 70s and never once known a driver to be penalised for it.

This season is growing more farcical by the race :(

ArrowsFA1
13th October 2008, 09:37
I've just watched the first corner incident several times, and I'm now confused as to why Hamilton got a drive through, it was Heikki that caused Kimi to go off track.

I still think Hamilton overcooked it and made a dumb move, but on the evidence I fail to see where the penalty came from.

Obviously we will all have different opinions, but after rewatching it I'm less convinced there was a need for a penalty.
I agree. At first I thought a penalty was justified, but it's become obvious that, although Hamilton was over-ambitious into turn 1, it was nothing we haven't seen numerous times before. He didn't cause an accident or take anyone else out, he simply outbraked himself and wrecked his tyres in the process.

Alonso & Kubica's comments in the press conference were telling:

Alonso: "I saw the people in front of me going quite aggressively into turn one. I myself locked the front tyres and I went a little bit wide. But I think it surprised us in a way as with the cold temperatures most of us started with the prime tyres and then we locked the tyres and everybody went long..."

Kubica: "I braked really too late and if someone had managed to take the apex I would have for sure hit him but suddenly everybody was straight..."

A bit of a chaotic start then, but nothing unusual or rule-breaking about it.

SGWilko
13th October 2008, 09:44
Has anyone ever seen a driver penalised for forcing another driver off the track in the 1st corner? This is another anti racing decsion by the FIA F1 stewards that not only affects F1 but eventually gets filtered down to lower catagories dumbing down the sport further.

The other is the Seb B penalty. How that was Seb's fault I have no idea.

Is it my imagination or have there been more stewards decisions this year than ever before?

Just the two penalties you don't understand?! I think most of the penalties these boneheads have been seeking advice from Mystic Meg in respect of are non comprehendable.....

PolePosition_1
13th October 2008, 10:09
Watch this:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKvZE0iuU8

At 0:06 they touched. Bourdais' car front end hit Massa's car rear end. You can see how the STR twitched while the Ferrari started spinning.

Given the position of the cars at that moment Bourdais has been overtaken and should have yielded the position. He wasn't squeezed out of the track either, and at the moment they touched he was close to the middle of the track.

IMO the Frenchman carried to much speed into Turn 1 given that he had a car on his outside. His mistake and his penalty.

I tried to be as objective as possible given the material we have at our disposal.

Massa had over half the track at his disposal. Bourdais was on the inside going into the corner. Since when has it been that a driver can't forced a driver wide whilst defending a position.

Bourdais was trying to make Massa run wide so he could defend his position. Its a racing incident. If fault has to be put somewhere its with Massa, he had plenty of room to run wide.

PolePosition_1
13th October 2008, 10:10
I do sorta side with the stewards about the Hamilton incident, it's just luck that he didn't wipe out half the field. I think that when Schumacher pulled similar moves in the past that those should have been punished too.

But while I'm not surprised, I am still pretty horrified by the Bourdais penalty. I'm not sure what he's supposed to have done wrong. It just seems like a random penalty being thrown out to a driver who dared be on the track at the same time as a Ferrari. It was Massa who caused the accident, and Massa who suffered, therefore no penalty is needed.

Also, as fun as it was to watch, Massa's move on Webber by driving over the no-drive strips in the pit lane looked very dangerous! Fortunately everyone had finished their pit stops by this point.


Since when has it been against the rules to force a driver off track without contact? Kubica forced Kimi off track in their battle, no penalty. Plenty of times throughout the years drivers have been forced to go onto the run off areas to avoid contact, it happens at all races with run off areas at turn one, its happened this year at Silverstone, Germany, Belgium - no penalty.

PolePosition_1
13th October 2008, 10:23
Not always but the burden is on him when exiting to not be cutting another car off, when the SB does not have matching speed and that is what he was attempting to do.

Burden was on him to avoid the accident and get in the racing line safely without blocking.

Otherwise the penalty makes no sense.......(but of course some would say that when the FIA acts, making sense is not a requirement)

Numerous occassions during the race, cars came out of the pits in line with cars racing down the straight, none made contact, with the cars at racing speed all giving cars exiting pits enough space.

PolePosition_1
13th October 2008, 11:03
and fe..why was only Lewis penalised and not also fe Heiki ? where is the logic in this ?

Couldn't agree more.

Heikki actually made contact with Kimi, Lewis didn't. Yet only Hamilton gets penalised.

There is just no logic or precedent whatsoever for this penalty.

You can't help but feel the stewards make up new rules, or decide to suddenly enforce rules to halt Hamiltons progress.

Knock-on
13th October 2008, 11:12
As per yodasarmpit's pictures, it's clear that Lewis made an absolute balls-up of his first corner and forced Kimi to take avoiding action. It was clearly the two Finns who made contact: Hamilton was already half a car length ahead at the time. If anybody should be punished it's HK.

However I've seen this happen at the start of pretty much every Grand Prix I've watched since the late 70s and never once known a driver to be penalised for it.

This season is growing more farcical by the race :(

OK, here's my take on the Penalties.

Lewis drove like an idiot at the start but did nothing illegal.

He flat spotted his tyres and lost places as a consequence but didn't hit Kimi or force him off track. If Kimi was sensible, he should have taken a line which would have allowed him to cut back and take advantage of Lewis's mistake but didn't.

This happens at most GP's and I have never seen a penalty so in my opinion, this was an error by the Stewards.

The 2nd one is Massa.

Obviously he cut the corner and spun the person he was fighting with in the Championship around. However, he was able to carry on but the person he hit was demoted to the back of the grid.

Here we have the situation where the offender, Massa, benefits from an illegal move because his penalty allowed him to score 2 points while the person he hit had no chance from the back. There should have been more than a drive through. Possibly a 10 second stop go and a 5 place grid penalty to reflect the impact it had on his competition? Stewards got it wrong again.

3rd one is Massa and Seb.

As ioan is the only one that agrees with the Stewards here, there's no point saying any more. Stewards got it wrong again.

4th one is Massa and Webber.

Massa was driving dangerously by using the pit lane for overtaking but as he didn't have all 4 tyres completely off track, then he did nothing wrong. Stewards got it right but the rules need clarifying to ensure this potential danger does not happen again.

ioan
13th October 2008, 11:42
Lewis drove like an idiot at the start but did nothing illegal.

Nothing illegal only stupid and very dangerous, I'm still wondering why didn't they black flag him for that move, he was clearly a danger to the other 19 drivers.

ioan
13th October 2008, 11:43
3rd one is Massa and Seb.

As ioan is the only one that agrees with the Stewards here, there's no point saying any more. Stewards got it wrong again.

:laugh: The return of the armchair expert! :laugh: :rotflmao:

ArrowsFA1
13th October 2008, 11:49
Nothing illegal only stupid and very dangerous, I'm still wondering why didn't they black flag him for that move, he was clearly a danger to the other 19 drivers.
If that's the case I expect you are calling for Alonso and Kubica to be black flagged as well :rolleyes: After all, Alonso locked his front tyres at turn one and Kubica said himself he braked too late and could have hit someone.

Dave B
13th October 2008, 11:51
Nothing illegal only stupid and very dangerous, I'm still wondering why didn't they black flag him for that move, he was clearly a danger to the other 19 drivers.

"Nothing illegal". So you admit that the stewards were wrong to penalise him? Or are you saying that it's ok to penalise somebody even when they haven't broken any rules?

pino
13th October 2008, 11:53
btw I've just found out that the stewards where: 1 from Italy, 1 from Spain, and 1 from San Marino :p :

Dave B
13th October 2008, 11:56
btw I've just found out that the stewards where: 1 from Italy, 1 from Spain, and 1 from San Marino :p :
While that's interesting I hope that in this day and age the stewards don't allow their nationality to influence their decision making.

I don't care if they're all Italian, all Brazillian or all belong to an as-yet undiscovered tribe deep in the Amazonian rain forest just so long as they are capable of rational and consistent decisions.

pino
13th October 2008, 11:59
Dave that was a joke ;)

Dave B
13th October 2008, 12:02
Dave that was a joke ;)
And I got fished in. Hook, line, sinker, and copy of Angling Times. :dork:

But the point stands: their nationality shouldn't matter so long as they're doing the job properly.

Which they're not.

slinkster
13th October 2008, 12:13
Ugh... another "race" steeped in conflict, regulations, confusion, inconsistencies and consipracy theories. As a fan I find it infuriating and growing tiresome. :( I just want to see some honest racing and sporting spirit but I can't see where all the inconsistencies are going to end. Rather than looking forward to a decent race, I start watching just dreading what ludicrous farce is going to happen next . The whole organisation is a joke and it's having a massive impact on the attitude of the drivers too I've noticed.

:(

ArrowsFA1
13th October 2008, 12:33
I start watching just dreading what ludicrous farce is going to happen next . The whole organisation is a joke and it's having a massive impact on the attitude of the drivers too I've noticed.
IIRC Martin Brundle made a similar point in response to a suggestion by James Allen regarding penalties...something along the lines of political correctness gone mad.

Shifter
13th October 2008, 18:51
...this just in. Japan stewards reviewed the 1990 race and have decided to penalize Senna for hitting Prost. Better update your championship stadings.

woody2goody
13th October 2008, 19:08
Massa had over half the track at his disposal. Bourdais was on the inside going into the corner. Since when has it been that a driver can't forced a driver wide whilst defending a position.

Bourdais was trying to make Massa run wide so he could defend his position. Its a racing incident. If fault has to be put somewhere its with Massa, he had plenty of room to run wide.

Exactly, well put.

And even if Massa had gone wide, he may still have gained the place with that great big run-off area outside turn one.

Massa's vision must be the wrong way round as he managed to turn half a track width of room into a collision, think the grass was the tarmac and then squeeze through dangerously past Webber, with barely a car width of room, and nearly the whole track to overtake on the left :)

woody2goody
13th October 2008, 19:16
IIRC Martin Brundle made a similar point in response to a suggestion by James Allen regarding penalties...something along the lines of political correctness gone mad.

He said that we were living in the nanny state. Perfectly true.

If you think about it all the penalties that have been given in favour of Ferrari the past couple of years have been unprecedented and silly.

Alonso's 'block' on Massa
Hamilton's chicanery with Kimi
Hamilton at Fuji
Bourdais at Fuji

All of the above except Bourdais have never been given out before. Look at the drivers that lost out: Massa, Kimi, Massa, Massa.

Whereas all the penalties given against Ferrari have been ligitimate ones which every team would expect to get:

M Schumacher parking it at Monaco
The wrong tyres on the car in Fuji '07
Massa's demolition derby Fuji '08

Hamilton didn't ruin anyone's race at Fuji, do anything illegal or drive dangerously, but yet Massa can spin Lewis out, cause damage to his car, and still pick up two points. Utter rubbish.

pits4me
13th October 2008, 19:52
Don't forget Kimi went unpunished at Monaco 08.

Daniel
13th October 2008, 19:53
Don't forget Kimi went unpunished at Monaco 08.
Yeah because I'm sure Kimi would have rather crashed into the back of Sutil in rather scary fashion than have those extra points :rolleyes:

gravity
13th October 2008, 22:25
Did the incident involving Kimi and Sutil at Monaco even get the race stewards attention? I don't recall reading an "incident involving...under investigation" message. What was the outcome of that investigation (if it happened)?

jens
13th October 2008, 22:44
Considering Bourdais' penalty, it's in retrospect a bit surprising that Sutil didn't get penalized for being in the way of Räikkönen at Monaco. :p :

PolePosition_1
14th October 2008, 10:56
Nothing illegal only stupid and very dangerous, I'm still wondering why didn't they black flag him for that move, he was clearly a danger to the other 19 drivers.

I only saw 2 cars go 4 wheels onto the run off areas.

If you see Hamilton as a danger, what you make of GP's at Belgium, Germany and Silverstone, where drivers have been forced off onto the run off areas at the start?

They're the ones off top my head, I sure it happens at most GP's with run off areas into turn 1.

PolePosition_1
14th October 2008, 11:03
Considering Bourdais' penalty, it's in retrospect a bit surprising that Sutil didn't get penalized for being in the way of Räikkönen at Monaco. :p :

Very true, I think its fair to say, the majority of F1 fans agree it would have been wrong to penalise Kimi at Monaco, it was a racing incident. Kimi at fault, but stilll, its unreasonable to penalise all racing incidents. Unless they're reckless and benefit the driver who was reckless should a penalty be dished out. Considering it cost Kimi as well as Sutil, and was in tricky conditions. It was correct it went by unpunished.

But serious questions must be asked as to, surely if that is deemed ok, how on earth can the Bourdais, or the 3 weird penalties Hamilton has had be classed ok.

If we had 3 permanent stewards, who ALL the teams approved of, and the stewards had some kind of racing experience (preferably not F1 experience to minimise bias), you'd have to assume we;d have much better consistancy.

Knock-on
14th October 2008, 11:55
Very true, I think its fair to say, the majority of F1 fans agree it would have been wrong to penalise Kimi at Monaco, it was a racing incident. Kimi at fault, but stilll, its unreasonable to penalise all racing incidents. Unless they're reckless and benefit the driver who was reckless should a penalty be dished out. Considering it cost Kimi as well as Sutil, and was in tricky conditions. It was correct it went by unpunished.

But serious questions must be asked as to, surely if that is deemed ok, how on earth can the Bourdais, or the 3 weird penalties Hamilton has had be classed ok.

If we had 3 permanent stewards, who ALL the teams approved of, and the stewards had some kind of racing experience (preferably not F1 experience to minimise bias), you'd have to assume we;d have much better consistancy.

Can't agree more.

OK, Kimi ruined Sutils race but it didn't seem fair to penalise him even though it cost Sutil a great result.

Less clear cut is Massa ruining Sutils race in Singapore where Massa continued but caused Sutil to crash and retire. I felt that there should be some sort of penalty but as far as I know, it was never investigated.

Then we have Massa crashing into SB who was doing nothing wrong but the victim gets penalised. Crazy.

Some people believe that the FIA favour Ferrari and I count myself as one of them.

However, even if you don't subscribe to that notion, you have to admit that the way the regulations are applied seems inconsistant and illogical.

Daniel
14th October 2008, 12:04
I would agree that penalty for Seb is plain wrong. As for Massa and Adrian in Singapore I think that Massa would have been unsighted so if anyone should be penalised it should be the twit who designed the circuit. I also agree with regards to Kimi. Pure racing incident.

pino
14th October 2008, 12:04
Did the incident involving Kimi and Sutil at Monaco even get the race stewards attention? I don't recall reading an "incident involving...under investigation" message. What was the outcome of that investigation (if it happened)?

Kimi's incident in Monaco was a "driving" mistake, Lewis incident in Japan was...a "mental" mistake :p :

Tonieke
14th October 2008, 12:11
Kimi's incident in Monaco was a "driving" mistake, Lewis incident in Japan was...a "mental" mistake :p :

what made you come to that conclusion ? *raised eyebrow* ;)

Daniel
14th October 2008, 12:12
Kimi's mistake was also made in difficult conditions. If I remember rightly the track was damp in parts? Lewis just plain pushed too hard.

leopard
14th October 2008, 12:17
Kimi's incident in Monaco was a "driving" mistake, Lewis incident in Japan was...a "mental" mistake :p :
perhaps, it could be also stewards considered that driving mistake didn't need further investigation, it was not sensational. :)

Tonieke
14th October 2008, 12:19
It is just funny to see over and over again..when Lewis makes a move..it is either dangerous..or he should have waited another corner etc etc etc..when Kimi or Felipe make a move and push of other cars...It is just good hard racing !

Tonieke
14th October 2008, 12:21
Kimi's mistake was also made in difficult conditions. If I remember rightly the track was damp in parts? Lewis just plain pushed too hard.


Robert also pushed very hard...forcing Kimi of track sunday..it was not even investigated !

leopard
14th October 2008, 12:23
It is just funny to see over and over again..when Lewis makes a move..it is either dangerous..or he should have waited another corner etc etc etc..when Kimi or Felipe make a move and push of other cars...It is just good hard racing !
Becuase Lewis drives Macca ;)

Daniel
14th October 2008, 12:35
And on a totally unrelated not it's quite cloudy here in Denbigh today *raises slightly perplexed testicle*

Knock-on
14th October 2008, 12:58
I would agree that penalty for Seb is plain wrong. As for Massa and Adrian in Singapore I think that Massa would have been unsighted so if anyone should be penalised it should be the twit who designed the circuit. I also agree with regards to Kimi. Pure racing incident.

We had video showing a look back up the track from Massa's car. He had good line of sight and still pulled out causing the incident.

Daniel
14th October 2008, 13:05
hmmm i remember the incident and i don't think massa was far enough out to see Adrian coming. He was part way through the corner. I thought the same as you till I saw the replay and it didn't look like Massa could see Adrian coming. Poor circuit design in my opinion. Imagine if Adrian had actually hit Massa? That would have been nasty.......

Knock-on
14th October 2008, 13:20
hmmm i remember the incident and i don't think massa was far enough out to see Adrian coming. He was part way through the corner. I thought the same as you till I saw the replay and it didn't look like Massa could see Adrian coming. Poor circuit design in my opinion. Imagine if Adrian had actually hit Massa? That would have been nasty.......

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=6-7hMNH1J6Q

Can't agree with this one.

If you watch the clip, you see Sutil flash past the left side of the track before Massa starts moving. Obviously Massa has far wider line of sight than the camera so he must have seen him.

I think he was trying to get out in front and Sutil coming round on the racing line finds a Ferrari pulling onto in and bails to the right to miss him.

Daniel
14th October 2008, 13:24
Will have a look when I get home.

gravity
14th October 2008, 14:55
I would say, in Massa's defense, he thought parking in the middle of the corner was more dangerous than trying to get out of the corner. He pulled away ASAP to avoid being hit. Sutil was just unlucky and he had nowhere to go. Surely there were yellow flags waving at corner by the time that Sutil had arrived? If that was the case, it looked like he rather chose to come hurtling into the corner to not lose time and came short.

Dave B
14th October 2008, 15:18
Kimi's mistake was also made in difficult conditions. If I remember rightly the track was damp in parts? Lewis just plain pushed too hard.
Then in that case Kimi was pushing too hard for the conditions at the time.

Lewis made a fundamental error with cold tyres/brakes on a cool track; Kimi made a fundamental error judging the grip in damp conditions. I don't really see the difference, and I don't think either incident should have been penalised.

Tonieke
14th October 2008, 15:22
I would say, in Massa's defense, he thought parking in the middle of the corner was more dangerous than trying to get out of the corner. He pulled away ASAP to avoid being hit. Sutil was just unlucky and he had nowhere to go. Surely there were yellow flags waving at corner by the time that Sutil had arrived? If that was the case, it looked like he rather chose to come hurtling into the corner to not lose time and came short.

don't you think it would have been the safest to just wait..From that video Massa clearly could see a car coming...and Sutil clearly saw Massa's car being parked...But by Massa making this unexpected move he clearly confused Sutil..Blocking the path of Sutil....

gravity
14th October 2008, 16:16
I agree that Massa should have waited. I'm just arguing from what I see was Massa's POV.

Sutil, as a driver approaching a parked car on the side of the road, he should been going slow enough to avoid the Ferrari if it had moved or not. He should have been prepared to come to a complete stop as he was approaching a blind corner with caution flags waving (I assume?). We are arguing now knowing that there wasn't another car involved but what if the situation was slightly different. ie: another car parked just inside of the curve?

Bagwan
14th October 2008, 21:25
I think Massa wanted to get the hell out of the way . I know I would have .

So , whether Felipe saw him coming or not is not really relevent at all .
If Adrian saw Felipe was there , and kept coming at the same pace , it might be assumed that he was trying to take advantage of that fact .

Felipe was not off track , and trying to get out of the way in a tight spot .
Getting past an ailing Jarno put him there .

Racing incident .

Daniel
14th October 2008, 21:45
knockie. You're joking right. There is no way Massa could have seen adrian coming. Thanks for posting the evidence to prove yourself wrong.

pino
14th October 2008, 22:20
Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) watch it and make up your mind ;)

Mickey T
14th October 2008, 22:33
Than maybe he wouldn't drift out of the corner and take th eovertaker with him.

....but that's ok when raikkonen does exactly what you describe to hamilton at spa?

overlap shouldn't matter - you still have to give racing room to the guy on the outside

Marshall
15th October 2008, 02:17
Having watched the videos, including the very revealing onboards on F1.com, it looks to me like at turn 1 Lewis didn't kamakaze into Kimi, but merely made a huge mistake and outbraked himself.

The Lewis/Felipe incident I would call as a racing incident - Felipe ran wide but tried to fight back, Lewis left him no room.

Massa/Bourdais, from the side on view it looks like Felipe has overtaken Seb, and he would have turned into the 1st corner having not noticed him. Again probably a racing incident rather than something worthy of a penalty.

woody2goody
15th October 2008, 02:25
If Lewis didn't take to the grass/run-off area/whatever it was in Belgium, he would have T-boned Raikkonen and possibly not received any points. It was his good judgment in this situation which ironically ended up getting him penalised. Massa should have cut the corner and scored more than the 2 points he ended up with.

Marshall
15th October 2008, 02:31
That's true - Lewis would have had to pit to replace those flat spotted fronts anyway so Felipe would have regained the position eventually anyway.

But such is the benefit of hindsight - in reality it was a pretty poor first lap from both the main championship rivals.