Massa/Webber incident... [Archive]

Dave B

12th October 2008, 10:17

Tricky one. Massa clearly had all four wheels off the circuit, and if the FIA are so intent on following the letter of the rules then he should have been given a drive through.

If you apply the "what if there'd been a barrier?" test, Massa would have lost the right-hand side of his car.

One could easily argue that Webber was defending his line and forced Massa over, but then again one could argue that at Spa Kimi shut the door on a certain McLaren and forced him over a chicane.

Personally I don't think either incident should be punished, they're racing incidents and great to watch, but you can't arbitrarily apply the rules depending on which way the wind's blowing.

cosmicpanda

12th October 2008, 10:20

Massa's front left isn't completely over the line in that is it?

christophulus

12th October 2008, 10:23

Massa's front left isn't completely over the line in that is it?

Not in that picture, but I think he goes fully over the lines and into the pit exit a bit further on.

I'll take that back if someone can find a better picture that proves me wrong, but as it is there should be a penalty

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 10:28

Massa's front left isn't completely over the line in that is it? it was a few 10's of a sec later....Nowhere in the rules is stated how many wheels are allowed outside the track anyway...it just says you can't leave the track in order to gain advantage !

It's like Dave say...For some they use the letter of the wet..not for others...that's what I find frustrating !

Dave B

12th October 2008, 10:32

Not in that picture, but I think he goes fully over the lines and into the pit exit a bit further on.

I'll take that back if someone can find a better picture that proves me wrong, but as it is there should be a penalty

Just at the very end of the red chevron area Massa is well and truly over the line. I'm working on a picture ;)

ioan

12th October 2008, 10:43

this is not gaining an advantage by leaving the track ? those that say..nop..fine..But please explain me the meaning of them white lines than...

It means that the "killer" in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

ioan

12th October 2008, 10:45

Just at the very end of the red chevron area Massa is well and truly over the line. I'm working on a picture ;)

And I bet that he wasn't out of the track, but rather on the pit exit lane, which is part of the track! ;)

christophulus

12th October 2008, 10:47

It means that the killer in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

It means that Massa, as the driver overtaking (or attempting to) should have yielded to the driver in front.

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 10:49

It means that the killer in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

it means an experienced driver ala Massa should know a driver in front of him will defend his line...Webber not once left the track while defending his spot !

ShiftingGears

12th October 2008, 10:50

If the rules were applied in a manner as petty as Lewis' penalty at Spa, then Massa would've got a penalty.

I don't see the problem as far as Webber is concerned. He is defending his position, without forcing anyone into a wall. Or killing them. Or raping their children. As some would like to think.

Dave B

12th October 2008, 10:52

Hmm.

I concede defeat on this one. Massa's left wheels are on the white line - just about - but not over.

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00168.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00180.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00175.jpg

christophulus

12th October 2008, 10:58

Hmm.

I concede defeat on this one. Massa's left wheels are on the white line - just about - but not over.

Then by the letter of the law there's no penalty, fair enough

ShiftingGears

12th October 2008, 10:59

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 11:02

jens

12th October 2008, 11:03

The dangerous factor about this incident is that if someone had exited the pitlane at the same time, he would have almost certainly had a huge crash together with Massa. This is the meaning of those white lines - as you shouldn't go over them from one side (while exiting the pits), so shouldn't they be crossed from the other side.

Dave B

12th October 2008, 11:03

The rulebook is vague enough to allow you to make an interpretation, saying that only the track must be used.

If you take tennis as an analogy, the ball was in.

CaptainRaiden

12th October 2008, 11:09

It means that the "killer" in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

I don't think Webber did anything wrong in defending his position, not more so than what a certain German driver driving a red car attempted on many of his competitors, even some times his own brother.

Well, if Webber is branded a "killer" for that move, shouldn't Schumacher then be called a Mass Murderer? :rolleyes:

Dave B

12th October 2008, 11:13

PS, from my screenshots about, just how crap is ITV1's picture quality? :s

woody2goody

12th October 2008, 11:14

Massa should have gone to the other side of Webber. He would have still got by. That was unnecessary and potentially very dangerous. What if another car was in the pitlane at that point?

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 11:27

The rulebook is vague enough to allow you to make an interpretation, saying that only the track must be used.

If you take tennis as an analogy, the ball was in.

it is pretty clear to me Dave..It says "ONLY" while Felipe is also clearly using space outside of the track to gain his advantage !!

Dave B

12th October 2008, 11:31

it is pretty clear to me Dave..It says "ONLY" while Felipe is also clearly using space outside of the track to gain his advantage !!
But if you follow that logic then even putting one wheel over the white line should be outlawed. There has to be a clear and unambiguous limit, and as far as I know that is when all four wheels leave the track as defined by the outer edge of the white line.

I thought Massa had transgressed but I have no problem with admitting that I was wrong. He pushed the rules to their absolute limit, but that's what top drivers are supposed to do.

ioan

12th October 2008, 11:39

ok true..but does it say in the rulebook you have to be offtrack with all 4 ?

Yes it does. Go check it out now. :p :

ioan

12th October 2008, 11:41

I don't think Webber did anything wrong in defending his position, not more so than what a certain German driver driving a red car attempted on many of his competitors, even some times his own brother.

Well, if Webber is branded a "killer" for that move, shouldn't Schumacher then be called a Mass Murderer? :rolleyes:

You can brand MS whatever you wish, I won't give a rat's arse about. :laugh:

ioan

12th October 2008, 11:41

But if you follow that logic then even putting one wheel over the white line should be outlawed. There has to be a clear and unambiguous limit, and as far as I know that is when all four wheels leave the track as defined by the outer edge of the white line.

I thought Massa had transgressed but I have no problem with admitting that I was wrong. He pushed the rules to their absolute limit, but that's what top drivers are supposed to do.

Fair post. :up:

ioan

12th October 2008, 11:43

it is pretty clear to me Dave..It says "ONLY" while Felipe is also clearly using space outside of the track to gain his advantage !!

Let's punish every driver that dares to put a wheel outside of the track, they are all gaining some hidden advantage by doing that. I wonder if we would have any drivers without a penalty in any race.

Daniel

12th October 2008, 11:50

it is pretty clear to me Dave..It says "ONLY" while Felipe is also clearly using space outside of the track to gain his advantage !!

You seem to have a thing about red cars doing perfectly reasonable things. Just watch the race without your McLaren tinted spectacles on and enjoy it for what it is/was. You remind me of those people who watch Top Gear just to find some minute detail they're not happy with so they can complain about it to the BBC. If you don't want to see red cars doing what they do best and pushing the limits then don't watch F1 because the red cars have always tended to push the limits and for instance today Massa got penalised for it....

But if you follow that logic then even putting one wheel over the white line should be outlawed. There has to be a clear and unambiguous limit, and as far as I know that is when all four wheels leave the track as defined by the outer edge of the white line.

I thought Massa had transgressed but I have no problem with admitting that I was wrong. He pushed the rules to their absolute limit, but that's what top drivers are supposed to do.

I agree. I didn't think anyone did anything wrong in the situation. Webber was very hard and fair and Massa pushed it to the maximum to get past and it worked. Isn't this what we watch racing to see?

christophulus

12th October 2008, 12:01

I thought Massa had transgressed but I have no problem with admitting that I was wrong. He pushed the rules to their absolute limit, but that's what top drivers are supposed to do.

I agree, Massa broke no rule and therefore gets no punishment.

Whether the rule itself is correct is another matter, I doubt anyone can say that it isn't dangerous to cut across the exit of the pitlane in that manner. I don't see a practical way to alter the rules, however.

Daniel

12th October 2008, 12:01

It means that the "killer" in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

Come on Ioan. Webber didn't need to give him room and he clearly gave him enough room when you consider that Massa was able to make a legal pass on Webber. I thought that was a really good bit of racing and both drivers gave each other just enough room for it to be safe and exciting.

Using words like "killer" will make you no friends on this forum with anyone who could be considered to be a reasonable person :)

ioan

12th October 2008, 12:09

Come on Ioan. Webber didn't need to give him room and he clearly gave him enough room when you consider that Massa was able to make a legal pass on Webber. I thought that was a really good bit of racing and both drivers gave each other just enough room for it to be safe and exciting.

Using words like "killer" will make you no friends on this forum with anyone who could be considered to be a reasonable person :)

I wasn't trying to make friends at all, people called MS "criminal" and so on for such moves, so I used the same coin today.
I could have called Webbo a clown too, I bet those who were so happy about Bernies idiotic remarks would have been up in arms against me!

I'm never trying hard to make friends around here, if someone agrees with me ok, if not it's still fine by me. If I agree with someone again OK, if not I'll say it.
If it happens that someone thinks that there is a friendship like relationship between forum member than it's a wonderful thing.

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 12:10

You seem to have a thing about red cars doing perfectly reasonable things. Just watch the race without your McLaren tinted spectacles on and enjoy it for what it is/was. You remind me of those people who watch Top Gear just to find some minute detail they're not happy with so they can complain about it to the BBC. If you don't want to see red cars doing what they do best and pushing the limits then don't watch F1 because the red cars have always tended to push the limits and for instance today Massa got penalised for it....

I have no prob with that at all my dear Daniel...But I am just frustrated this season about the fact for some the stewards follow the rules by the letter and for others they don't...so again I have nothing at all against Ferrari as a team..My prob is with them stewards !

Daniel

12th October 2008, 12:11

I wasn't trying to make friends at all, people called MS "criminal" and so on for such moves, so I used the same coin today.
I could have called Webbo a clown too, I bet those who were so happy about Bernies idiotic remarks would have been up in arms against me!

I'm never trying hard to make friends around here, if someone agrees with me ok, if not it's still fine by me. If I agree with someone again OK, if not I'll say it.
If it happens that someone thinks that there is a friendship like relationship between forum member than it's a wonderful thing.

Come on dude. If others had jumped off a cliff would you do that? :mark:

Daniel

12th October 2008, 12:17

I have no prob with that at all my dear Daniel...But I am just frustrated this season about the fact for some the stewards follow the rules by the letter and for others they don't...so again I have nothing at all against Ferrari as a team..My prob is with them stewards !

What problem? Dave posted screencaps which show Massa did nothing wrong.

End of story.........

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 12:28

What problem? Dave posted screencaps which show Massa did nothing wrong.

End of story.........

yep...just like Lewis did nothing wrong if you compair it with the Bourdais action in Spa (first corner)

ioan

12th October 2008, 12:30

Come on dude. If others had jumped off a cliff would you do that? :mark:

:eek: Do what?
I'm still very proud of the neuron that attaches my to ears to my head! :p :

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 12:31

What problem? Dave posted screencaps which show Massa did nothing wrong.

End of story.........

and it still can be seen as dangerous driving..imagining someone leaving the pit right at that moment ! and one can get a penalty for that too not ?

Daniel

12th October 2008, 12:33

yep...just like Lewis did nothing wrong if you compair it with the Bourdais action in Spa (first corner)

*sigh* I don't give a **** about what Lewis did. I have my opinion and I've stated it many times. This is not a thread about Lewis and I'm not going to discuss that decision because I've said what I've said......

What we're talking about here is what Massa did and Massa did NOTHING wrong.

:eek: Do what?
I'm still very proud of the neuron that attaches my to ears to my head! :p :

Well then use it and don't say such silly things :)

Dave B

12th October 2008, 12:35

and it still can be seen as dangerous driving..imagining someone leaving the pit right at that moment ! and one can get a penalty for that too not ?

I agree, and the rules should be revisited. However, according to the rules as they stand today, Massa did nothing wrong.

Daniel

12th October 2008, 12:36

I agree, and the rules should be revisited. However, according to the rules as they stand today, Massa did nothing wrong.
[Mark Blundell]Wot 'e sed[/Mark Blundell]

Tonieke

12th October 2008, 12:40

I agree, and the rules should be revisited. However, according to the rules as they stand today, Massa did nothing wrong.

well so far this season they first punished a driver than revisited the rules ! ;-)

PSfan

12th October 2008, 15:44

and it still can be seen as dangerous driving..imagining someone leaving the pit right at that moment ! and one can get a penalty for that too not ?

I guess it is very hard to imagine for some people to think that maybe if someone was in the pits, the Ferrari team would have radio'ed that information to Massa? It was not dangerous because no-one was leaving the pits...

markabilly

12th October 2008, 16:08

I think that is one thing to go off roading to gain an advantage and another to be side by side, and be forced to take to the off-road to avoid an accident.

if anyone should be penalized it should be Webber (someone who I do like far more than Massa) but he was inches from wheel to wheel contact of a very deliberate nature at top speed that could have resulted in severe injuries, even a car into the top of the pit wall where all the team managers sit, or an accident where Massa crashes into another car exiting.
Stupid on Webber

Dave B

12th October 2008, 16:11

I guess it is very hard to imagine for some people to think that maybe if someone was in the pits, the Ferrari team would have radio'ed that information to Massa? It was not dangerous because no-one was leaving the pits...
I assume that a few laps earlier Ferrari had made Massa aware that Bordais was leaving the pits - he still managed to hit the Toro Rosso :dozey:

PSfan

12th October 2008, 16:15

I assume that a few laps earlier Ferrari had made Massa aware that Bordais was leaving the pits - he still managed to hit the Toro Rosso :dozey:

And he was probably made aware of that as well, but the Bourdais incident was clearly a mis-calculation of space... And not "suprise a car is leaving pit lane"

ioan

12th October 2008, 17:09

And he was probably made aware of that as well, but the Bourdais incident was clearly a mis-calculation of space... And not "suprise a car is leaving pit lane"

It was rather a miscalculation of cornering abilities on cold tires and a heavy car, obviously I'm talking about the Frenchman.

Kevincal

12th October 2008, 17:15

Webber blocks like an idiot. Massa was WAY faster than Webbo with his bald tires... Stupid and dangerous move by Webb.

Caroline

12th October 2008, 17:48

It was rather a miscalculation of cornering abilities on cold tires and a heavy car, obviously I'm talking about the Frenchman.

Surely though, a driver like Massa should have anticipated that perhaps the car leaving the pits had cold tyres etc? Maybe he should have been cautious and made allowances? Or maybe he thought Seabass would just yield?

ioan

12th October 2008, 18:36

Surely though, a driver like Massa should have anticipated that perhaps the car leaving the pits had cold tyres etc? Maybe he should have been cautious and made allowances? Or maybe he thought Seabass would just yield?

Massa was fighting to get into the points scoring positions. He can't know how bad Bourdais could react, otherwise we would never see anyone overtake on track anymore.

jens

12th October 2008, 18:48

If there isn't a rule about such situation, then one should be created. FIA has tried to do a lot to improve safety and now it turns out such situation, which could trigger a very dangerous and enormous crash, hasn't been cleared in the rule books...

ShiftingGears

13th October 2008, 00:48

He gave him room, and Massa used it. The FIA's main problem is overzealous stewards and overuse of tarmac runoff.

Hawkmoon

13th October 2008, 02:48

Everybody needs to watch Dijon '79 again. Might put some of this nonsense into a proper persepctive.

I think the move was fine but Massa made it unnecessarily risky by taking the inside despite Webber's covering move. The Ferrari was so much faster that Massa could have gone to the outside and easily taken the place. Easier to say from the lounge room than the cockpit but Massa, like Hamilton, has a championship to think of and putting your car into potential harms way is not a smart thing to do.

The blue light at the end of the pit lane warns drivers that cars are coming down the straight so anyone leaving the pits would have been aware that Massa and Webber were not far away. I think this goes some way to mitigating the potential danger but the danger was there none-the-less.

I don't think the FIA can do much about it without removing overtaking spots at places like Hungary. The white line of the pit exit at the Hungaroring goes quite a way into the breaking zone for turn 1, so if drivers can't cross that line then passing anyone into that corner becomes practically impossible.

Knock-on

13th October 2008, 09:31

It was dangerous but legal if he kept his wheels on the track.

Had someone been exiting the pit, there could have been a monumental crash but there wasn't.

The FIA have the opportunity to clarify this and ensure nobody transgresses the Pit lane in future but because nobody died, they wont bother :rolleyes:

wedge

13th October 2008, 11:28

Dave B

13th October 2008, 11:35

If you want to punish Massa then fine him at the most ...
I disagree. According to the letter of the law he did nothing wrong. Maybe the rule needs changing or clarifying, but you can't punish a driver retrospectively.

Oh wait... Spa 2008. :s

schmenke

14th October 2008, 22:35

What race were you lot watching? I was appalled at Webber's actions, forcing Massa to the right when along side. On-board video shows just how close they came to contact. I can't imagine the carnage at those speeds :s . Dangerous, unprofessional driving by Webber :down: If anything, he should have a received a penalty.

woody2goody

15th October 2008, 00:31

As they say 'that's racing'

If you want to punish Massa then fine him at the most but racing is dangerous and you're not going to stop drivers' racing instincts.

At the rate we're going, and no thanks to the stewards, F1 is becoming no longer a sport.

That's exactly what Fernando Alonso said in 2006 with the stupidity of his penalty at Monza.

With regards to this particular incident, Webber is allowed to put his car wherever he wants in this situation. He only moved across to one side, he didn't make a double move back over to the left or anything like that.

Massa was potentially idiotic. He was so much faster that he could have gone round Webber easily. He didn't have to go that close to the wall/pit lane.

I think the issue isn't really that he crossed into the pitlane as such, but the fact that he did so via the red and white painted area, which to me says you shouldn't be there. It is extremely dangerous to cross into the pitlane.

I don't think Massa would have deserved a penalty, maybe a fine would have sufficed, but compare that with Hamilton and Bourdais' 'indiscretions' and Massa could have caused far more damage via his bad decision.

Ranger

15th October 2008, 03:29

You are not entitled to "roll out the red carpet" when a car 1.5 seconds a lap is coming to pass you for position. Webber salvaged an extra point for Minardi in his GP debut by forcing the 1.5 second per lap quicker Toyota of Mika Salo into a mistake. But according to some here he shouldn't have put up a fight. :\

Besides, having seen the replay on youtube, he was moving over before Felipe went for the closing gap. It's called racing, and rightly no one got a penalty. If only the stewards thought the same about turn 1 on lap 1.

ioan

15th October 2008, 09:32

You are not entitled to "roll out the red carpet" when a car 1.5 seconds a lap is coming to pass you for position. Webber salvaged an extra point for Minardi in his GP debut by forcing the 1.5 second per lap quicker Toyota of Mika Salo into a mistake. But according to some here he shouldn't have put up a fight. :\

So putting someone into the wall for 1 point is the right way to go? I suppose you were not criticizing MS for his behavior at all.

try leaving Webber's nationality aside and you'll see what an arsehole he was last Sunday. Massa caught up with him already half way down the straight and Webber was allowed only one move not several ones t push the other driver into the wall.

Ranger

15th October 2008, 10:01

Daniel

15th October 2008, 10:03

Webber played hard. Isn't that what all drivers should do? Both did nothing wrong in that situation.

ioan

15th October 2008, 10:03

Massa said there was nothing wrong with it.
Webber said there was nothing wrong with it.

Arsehole or not, that goes against what you, in front of your computer, are telling me.

Go figure!

:laugh:

Massa was a gentleman when he said that something you should learn from. :)

Knock-on

15th October 2008, 10:11

Webber played hard. Isn't that what all drivers should do? Both did nothing wrong in that situation.

I agree totally.

Some people in their Red painted armchair think Webber should move off the track to allow Massa to pass.

I maintain that Massa was bone headed in passing there and should have switched back to take the outside. It was a dangerous move but legal.

ioan

15th October 2008, 10:14

Some people in their Red painted armchair think Webber should move off the track to allow Massa to pass.

FYI mine is blue, so I don't know who you might be talking about! :D

I maintain that Massa was bone headed ...

How objective! :rolleyes:

Ranger

15th October 2008, 10:17

:laugh:

Massa was a gentleman when he said that something you should learn from. :)

Hang on a sec...In response to my facts, you just implied that what Massa said was not his actual opinion and then backed it up with a useless personal slight, despite the fact you don't know me.

Incredible. :\

pino

15th October 2008, 10:20

Let's quit personal comments/attacks...thank you !

ioan

15th October 2008, 10:20

Hang on a sec...In response to my facts, you just implied that what Massa said was not his actual opinion and then backed it up with a useless personal slight, despite the fact you don't know me.

Incredible. :\

Your facts?

What I said is that Massa said he was OK with the move, even though he did imply in his comments that what Webber did was a bit extreme, and he was gentleman enough not to point the finger to Webber.

It doesn't mean that your previous point about how Webber was right to do what he did is right, thus my previous reply.

Knock-on

15th October 2008, 10:27

FYI mine is blue, so I don't know who you might be talking about! :D

How objective! :rolleyes:

Saying someone is bone headed is a statement and not meant to be objective.

Crossing over the pit line at racing speed practically all the way off track is not the most intelligent move, wouldn't you agree.

If it were Lewis overtaking Massa in that manner, you would probably call him an a***hole :laugh:

That's objective ;)

ioan

15th October 2008, 10:31

Saying someone is bone headed is a statement and not meant to be objective.

Crossing over the pit line at racing speed practically all the way off track is not the most intelligent move, wouldn't you agree.

If it were Lewis overtaking Massa in that manner, you would probably call him an a***hole :laugh:

That's objective ;)

Massa was pushed there by Webbers "n"th illegal move, so I fail to see why is he the bonehead.

Knock-on

15th October 2008, 10:34

Massa was pushed there by Webbers "n"th illegal move, so I fail to see why is he the bonehead.

Webber made I move over to defend his line.

Can you back up your claim that it was an illegal move with a regulation Webber transgressed?

Ranger

15th October 2008, 10:40

Your facts?

What I said is that Massa said he was OK with the move, even though he did imply in his comments that what Webber did was a bit extreme, and he was gentleman enough not to point the finger to Webber.

It doesn't mean that your previous point about how Webber was right to do what he did is right, thus my previous reply.

The fact is, you've got an argument formed on what Massa didn't say in order to support your opinion.

An from Felipe's and Mark's perspective, there was nothing wrong with it, it was racing. And yes, racing is the right thing to do in a motor race.

ioan

15th October 2008, 10:46

The fact is, you've got an argument formed on what Massa didn't say in order to support your opinion.

"In the duel with Webber I saw a space down the inside and went for it. He moved over on me a little bit towards the wall which might have looked a bit scary but it was not like that from the cockpit. Anyway, it was a very important moment in the race and I had to try. Now we will give it our all in the next two races. We have great potential available to us and we must do all we can to exploit it."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71373

He said it as it was, he just didn't want to say anything negative about it.
I stand by my opinion.

Daniel

15th October 2008, 11:08

My dad will like so beat all your dads up :dozey:

PolePosition_1

15th October 2008, 11:15

It means that the "killer" in the blue car should stop pushing the other driver into the wall! :rolleyes:

I love how you selectively pick the points you had.

How did you view the Hamilton/Kimi situation in Belgium, Hamilton shouldn't have gone for the corner?

But when Massa goes for a move, the other driver shouldn't be pushing him wide?

Webber did nothing wrong, he's more than entitled to defend his position.

In my eyes, Massa done nothing wrong either, its called racing. And people who complain about what Massa did for the incident itself, should stop watching F1.

People who are complaining about this in respect to how this doesn't get penalised and other moves do get penalised, fair enough, I agree.

Dave B

15th October 2008, 11:37

He said it as it was, he just didn't want to say anything negative about it.
I stand by my opinion.

I'm so pleased that you know what Massa's really thinking, it must be wonderful to have such insight :rolleyes:

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that there was a touch of desperation about Massa's race, and as with the Bordais indident he expected a "backmarker" to make life easy for him.

PolePosition_1

15th October 2008, 11:44

So putting someone into the wall for 1 point is the right way to go? I suppose you were not criticizing MS for his behavior at all.

try leaving Webber's nationality aside and you'll see what an arsehole he was last Sunday. Massa caught up with him already half way down the straight and Webber was allowed only one move not several ones t push the other driver into the wall.

Erm, there is no mention in the rule book which says a driver can't move across more than once to defend his position.

The drivers have a gentlemans agreement of no zig zagging at over 150mph, but its not in the rules.

And even then, Webber wasn't zig zagging across, he just kept moving to one side more and more, forcing Massa off track. Same as when Kubica forced Kimi off track in their battles. Which isn't illegal, unless your Hamilton, where you get a drive through for forcing 2 cars onto the run off areas.

MAX_THRUST

15th October 2008, 12:00

F1 is getting as daft as this forum, its all very one sided.

Kimi pushed Lewis wide in Spa Lewis get a penalty. Webber pushes Masa towards the wall according to some here and Masa goes off track, so Masa should have had a penalty. That and hitting two other cars on Sunday you can see why people are suspicious of what is going on with stewards Ferrari and F1.

That is more worrying than what happened. There is starting to be a patern. It stinks.

Ioan don't bother posting reply to my thread I am only interested in others responses, fed up with your attutde to everyone on this sight that does not agree with you.