**Official Japanese Grand Prix Thread 2008 **

[gloomyDAY]

Please, Vettel, no repeat of last year. :|

[ioan]

Please, Vettel, no repeat of last year. :|

Yeah, win it this time. Or at least crash into a certain McLaren, not into Webber! :p :

[gloomyDAY]

Yeah, win it this time. Or at least crash into a certain McLaren, not into Webber! :p :lol

I have to admit, that really cracked me up!

[truefan72]

so what are the changes they report on fuji this year. lookslike the same wexact track as las year, maybe the last turn is less tight?

[ShiftingGears]

Well, at some point I hope to see Vettel and Webber closing in on a McLaren :D

Besides that chicane, and the unnecessary tarmac runoff that facilitates frequently running off the road, Fuji is a good circuit!

[ShiftingGears]

so what are the changes they report on fuji this year. lookslike the same wexact track as las year, maybe the last turn is less tight?

Where'd you hear that?

[gloomyDAY]

Practice 1

1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.910 + 23
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:19.063 + 0.153 24
3. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.279 + 0.369 20
4. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:19.399 + 0.489 31
5. Alonso Renault (B) 1:19.473 + 0.563 30
6. Piquet Renault (B) 1:19.743 + 0.833 35
7. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.121 + 1.211 30
8. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:20.160 + 1.250 26
9. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.182 + 1.272 34
10. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:20.217 + 1.307 25
11. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:20.288 + 1.378 26
12. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:20.350 + 1.440 28
13. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:20.620 + 1.710 24
14. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:20.628 + 1.718 23
15. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:20.657 + 1.747 33
16. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:20.753 + 1.843 32
17. Button Honda (B) 1:20.769 + 1.859 27
18. Glock Toyota (B) 1:20.823 + 1.913 37
19. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:20.905 + 1.995 24
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:21.014 + 2.104 28

[F1boat]

So far first blood for Lewis Hamilton - it was the same in Singapore, however and in qualifying Massa was fastest. It is nice to see that the Renault remain competitive.

[christophulus]

Free Practice 2

1. Glock Toyota (B) 1:18.383
2. Alonso Renault (B) 1:18.426 + 0.043
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.463 + 0.080
4. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:18.491 + 0.108
5. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:18.725 + 0.342
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:18.734 + 0.351
7. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.734 + 0.351
8. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:18.761 + 0.378
9. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.803 + 0.420
10. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:18.863 + 0.480
11. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:18.865 + 0.482
12. Piquet Renault (B) 1:18.888 + 0.505
13. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.981 + 0.598
14. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:19.040 + 0.657
15. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:19.258 + 0.875
16. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.287 + 0.904
17. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:19.327 + 0.944
18. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.482 + 1.099
19. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:19.894 + 1.511
20. Button Honda (B) 1:19.999 + 1.616

Top 17 covered by a second, Glock fastest and Nakajima still showing promise

[PolePosition_1]

Whilst I'm looking forward to next years regulations, which should provide a good format for encouraging closer racing.

I think its definately going to spread the field out hugely, and I will miss the days of the top 17 cars being covered by 1s.

Does anyone know of any era in F1 where the cars were so closely matched?

[F1boat]

Free Practice 2

1. Glock Toyota (B) 1:18.383
2. Alonso Renault (B) 1:18.426 + 0.043
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.463 + 0.080
4. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:18.491 + 0.108
5. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:18.725 + 0.342
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:18.734 + 0.351
7. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.734 + 0.351
8. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:18.761 + 0.378
9. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.803 + 0.420
10. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:18.863 + 0.480
11. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:18.865 + 0.482
12. Piquet Renault (B) 1:18.888 + 0.505
13. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.981 + 0.598
14. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:19.040 + 0.657
15. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:19.258 + 0.875
16. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.287 + 0.904
17. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:19.327 + 0.944
18. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.482 + 1.099
19. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:19.894 + 1.511
20. Button Honda (B) 1:19.999 + 1.616

Top 17 covered by a second, Glock fastest and Nakajima still showing promise


It seems close, but I am sure that tomorrow McLaren Mercedes and Ferrari will show their true pace and it won't be so close.

[Ranger]

It seems close, but I am sure that tomorrow McLaren Mercedes and Ferrari will show their true pace and it won't be so close.

Probably. But there's the highest chance of weekend rain tomorrow which may change that.

[jens]

Toyota needs to seriously impress this weekend, otherwise they should know fully well that the fight for P4 in the WCC would be over...

Btw, a few nights ago I saw a dream about Fuji Grand Prix. Sutil won ahead of Alonso and Fisichella. :p : In the early phases of the race two Force Indias pulled away from the whole pack, because Trulli in 3rd was holding everyone up. Later when the chasing group got up to speed it was too late to catch them. Fisichella had been leading the whole race, but got lost somewhere and dropped to 4th. Alonso and Trulli took over podium positions and the Italian was right at the gearbox of Spaniard before his car failed with 10 laps to go.

Another surprising podium and now all 10 teams have reached a podium spot this year. ;)

[Anderton]

Probably. But there's the highest chance of weekend rain tomorrow which may change that.
Showers are forecast for tomorrow, so it should be an interesting quali.

[F1boat]

Oh, if there is rain tomorrow I predict duel between Vettel and Lewis for the Pole!

[Valve Bounce]

Toyota needs to seriously impress this weekend, otherwise they should know fully well that the fight for P4 in the WCC would be over...

Btw, a few nights ago I saw a dream about Fuji Grand Prix. Sutil won ahead of Alonso and Fisichella. :p : In the early phases of the race two Force Indias pulled away from the whole pack, because Trulli in 3rd was holding everyone up. Later when the chasing group got up to speed it was too late to catch them. Fisichella had been leading the whole race, but got lost somewhere and dropped to 4th. Alonso and Trulli took over podium positions and the Italian was right at the gearbox of Spaniard before his car failed with 10 laps to go.

Another surprising podium and now all 10 teams have reached a podium spot this year. ;)

I'd like some of that stuff you smoke. :eek:

[gloomyDAY]

1. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:25.087 19
2. Glock Toyota (B) 1:25.171 + 0.084 25
3. Piquet Renault (B) 1:25.415 + 0.328 19
4. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:25.474 + 0.387 24
5. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:25.563 + 0.476 23
6. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.614 + 0.527 20
7. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:25.709 + 0.622 15
8. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.785 + 0.698 20
9. Alonso Renault (B) 1:25.799 + 0.712 19
10. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.880 + 0.793 24
11. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:25.901 + 0.814 8
12. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.984 + 0.897 22
13. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:26.013 + 0.926 21
14. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:26.213 + 1.126 19
15. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:26.239 + 1.152 10
16. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:26.277 + 1.190 18
17. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:26.662 + 1.575 22
18. Button Honda (B) 1:26.922 + 1.835 26
19. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:27.357 + 2.270 12
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:27.918 + 2.831 17

Time for qualifying!

[F1boat]

Lewis wins Pole-Position ahead of Kimi and Heikki. Massa is 5th, behind Alonso as well.
I think that the race tomorrow will be fantastic.

[ArrowsFA1]

Hamilton on pole beating (the light?) Raikkonen. Massa's 5th.

Should be interesting tomorrow :s mokin:

[gloomyDAY]

1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.071 1:17.462 1:18.404
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:18.160 1:17.733 1:18.644
3. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:18.220 1:17.360 1:18.821
4. Alonso Renault (B) 1:18.290 1:17.871 1:18.852
5. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:18.110 1:17.287 1:18.874
6. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:18.684 1:17.931 1:18.979
7. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:18.501 1:17.541 1:19.026
8. Glock Toyota (B) 1:17.945 1:17.670 1:19.118
9. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:18.559 1:17.714 1:19.638
10. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:18.593 1:18.102 1:20.167
11. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:18.303 1:18.187
12. Piquet Renault (B) 1:18.300 1:18.274
13. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:18.372 1:18.354
14. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.640 1:18.594
15. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:18.740 1:18.672
16. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:18.835
17. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:18.882
18. Button Honda (B) 1:19.100
19. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.163
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:19.910

[gloomyDAY]

lol @ Ferrari

Someone needs to tell them that Massa needs to be in front of Kimi & Hamilton.
Ferrari mixed up the fuel loads today.

[ioan]

Bye bye championships!

I doubt this will turn out to be a Ferrari 1-2.
BTW, why is that no one told Massa to go for another try in the qualy? based on his previous pace he could have done better than 5th.

[gloomyDAY]

I just hope Kimi doesn't slam into Lewis.

That would be a shame. :D

[jens]

Ferrari's strategy does indeed seem strange. The main logic I can see in this is that Räikkönen was purposely fueled lighter in order to get pole and start blocking Hamilton during the first stint, so heavier Massa could jump into the lead after pitstops. However it seems harder to fulfill such "plan" now as LH is on pole.

BMW was struggling in Q1 (14th & 16th), but Kubica managed to make a resurgence during the last two sessions.

No glory lap by Toyota this time. If anything, they are heavier than direct opposition. However, their starts have recently been good, so I'm looking forward to see them taking a few scalps at the start and make their outlooks better. But in the WCC battle Alonso looks quite unstoppable, so there does not seem to be much hope. :p :

The interesting thing is that when Williams is struggling, Nakajima seems to be quite a match to Rosberg. When Williams is quick (on street circuits), then Rosberg is clearly above Naka.

And DC ahead of Webber - applause! :D

[ioan]

Ferrari's strategy does indeed seem strange. The main logic I can see in this is that Räikkönen was purposely fueled lighter in order to get pole and start blocking Hamilton during the first stint, so heavier Massa could jump into the lead after pitstops. However it seems harder to fulfill such "plan" now as LH is on pole.

I'm beginning to doubt that Ferrari knows what a race winning strategy looks like. :\

[F1boat]

Hamilton on pole beating (the light?) Raikkonen. Massa's 5th.

Should be interesting tomorrow :s mokin:

I think that all drivers in the top 4 are light.

[ioan]

I think that all drivers in the top 4 are light.

It might be that the McLaren's went light after they saw Massa's pace in Q2, but I wouldn't bet on that.

[ShiftingGears]

Ferrari better hope that Massa passes Alonso at the start.

[ioan]

Passing shouldn't be a problem given the length of the straight and the power difference between Ferrari and Renault! ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Passing shouldn't be a problem given the length of the straight and the power difference between Ferrari and Renault! ;)

True!

[Viktory]

Hopefully Massa takes Alonso and Kovalainen before the first corner (Ferrari seem to be pretty quick at starts), Kimi and Hamilton battle for the lead, run wide, Massa comes out first, Kimi second, Hamilton 3rd or worse :p

[ioan]

the only problem for Massa is that he is starting right behind Kovalainen and that Kovi is a very bad starter. Hopefully he can get around him without problem.

[jens]

Kovalainen's race pace has been under criticism too, but if he manages to stay ahead of Massa after the start, then maybe this race pace will actually do a favour to Hamilton. :p :

[ioan]

Kovalainen's race pace has been under criticism too, but if he manages to stay ahead of Massa after the start, then maybe this race pace will actually do a favour to Hamilton. :p :

If he isn't fast enough, and I doubt he is, than I doubt he will stay in front of the Ferrari on the 1.4 km long straight.
Massa has nothing more to lose, so he'll be fired up by tomorrow.

[Triumph]

Well done Lewis Hamilton for qualifying on pole position.

Martin Brundle said before the final section of qualifying that the difference between a good driver and a great driver is the ability to pull a quick time out of the bag when it's needed, and that's what Hamilton needed to do in order to get pole.

Shortly afterwards, job done!

And the Schumacher/Hamilton comparisons continue. Both Martin Brundle and Mark Blundell compared Hamilton's style and ability to that of Schumacher and Senna earlier in the programme.

I just wanted to mention that in order to neutralize some of the bitterness a lot of people seem to harbour towards those with exceptional talent.

:)

[ShiftingGears]

If he isn't fast enough, and I doubt he is, than I doubt he will stay in front of the Ferrari on the 1.4 km long straight.
Massa has nothing more to lose, so he'll be fired up by tomorrow.

Who knows? Maybe we could see re-passing on the straight.

[ioan]

Who knows? Maybe we could see re-passing on the straight.

Depends how late one makes the first pass. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that all drivers in the top 4 are light.
Perhaps, but the reason I suspect Kimi is light is he found extra pace in Q3 that he didn't seem to have before. That strongly suggests Ferrari wanted him up front to help Massa. When was the last time Kimi was on the front row?

[I am evil Homer]

I'm no memeber of the Hamilton fan club but that pole lap was mightily impressive...under pressure and he really put it together.

[gravity]

Time diff between Q2 and Q3:

Predicted early 1st stop (2 stops):
Raikkonen (0.911)
Hamilton (0.942)
Alonso (0.981)
Kubica (1.048)

Predicted late 1st stop (2 stops):
Glock (1.448)
Kovalainen (1.461)
Trulli (1.485)
Massa (1.587)

Predicted 1 stop strategy:
Vettel (1.924)
Bourdais (2.065)

Although Massa might look like he will stop late, he did mention that he had tire performance issues in quali, so his time diff might not be fuel load related, so he might still be an early 1 stopper?

[Storm]

Hmmmm...whatever their plans were, Ferrari will feel the heat if Kimi can't get past Lewis by T1 and Massa doesn't atleast get to P3.

Good lap again by Alonso though!

[Hondo]

1-Kimi 2-Alonso 3-Kubica

[ShiftingGears]

When was the last time Kimi was on the front row?

June, French GP.

[markabilly]

I'm beginning to doubt that Ferrari knows what a race winning strategy looks like. :\


WRONG!!. They got the very same advisors that McCain has....

[VkmSpouge]

Good qualifying effort by Lewis Hamilton to get pole. Kimi Raikkonen found a good turn of speed in the last session. Felipe Massa ending up 5th will be a blow to Ferrari, they'll need him to jump Alonso at the start.

[Robinho]

great qually session, but i think the last laps raised more questions than it answered, namely;

is Kimi light?

if so are the McLarens also light?

did Massa slip up or is that his pace?

if so is he heavy or just a bit slower?

and can the Alonso and Toyotas get in there and spoil the fight as well.

regardless of fuel levels etc Lewis is right where he needs to be and Massa isn't, whatever the plan being behind his team mate, both Mc's and a Renault can not have been the goal,

i think we could be in for an intriguing race tomorrow, especially of anyone is playing expecting rain

[Dave B]

WRONG!!. They got the very same advisors that McCain has....
After the pit-stop debacle in Singapore I'm wondering if Ferrari's PR man went to school with Sarah Palin: he refused to give a single straight answer to even the most basic questions.

[Robinho]

reminds me of this fella,

"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!"

[Firstgear]

Not good for Massa. If he's light - he'll have a tough time using any kind of pit strategy to his advantage with Lewis ahead of Kimi. If he's heavy, he'll have a tough time getting past a lighter Heikki to keep up with the front runners and possibly pit-pass.

His best chance might be rain, except that, well you know....

I expect a 10+ point gap after Japan - barring "technical" intervention.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm no Hamilton fan, but right now either a brave man or a complete idiot would bet against him being the champion this year. I mean really, all the prejudices regarding his arrogance aside, you gotta admire him for delivering a perfect lap almost always when it's needed.

Kimi is light for this race, for sure. I cannot believe a guy who was 7th in Q2 would be 2nd in Q3. Although he did say that his car reacted better when heavy on fuel, so you never know.

Anyway, IMHO Kimi is gonna take the 2009 championship, just a very strong feeling. :D

[ioan]

Someone shoot Hamilton!

[ioan]

Well done Felipe!

[ArrowsFA1]

Hamilton needed a cooler head at the first corner, but Massa's move at the chicane was questionable.

[F1boat]

Hamilton needed a cooler head at the first corner, but Massa's move at the chicane was questionable.

It might be, but Lewis was too impatient and risked too much - I praised him after mature driving in Singapore and now he showed again that he is very, very young.

[herra47]

Go Kubica!! 2009 WDC

[ArrowsFA1]

Stewards looking at Raikkonen, Massa & Hamilton.

[ioan]

First Mercedes engine Kaput this year. Good sign!

[ArrowsFA1]

Fair decisions by the stewards. Looks like the two WDC leaders may not score points today.

[pino]

Damn, my alarm din't work so I've missed the start :mad:

[ArrowsFA1]

Wakey, wakey!!!! :laugh:

[F1boat]

Fair decisions by the stewards. Looks like the two WDC leaders may not score points today.

So u have it. FIA is not biased. :)
GO ALONSO!

[ioan]

Stewards looking at Raikkonen, Massa & Hamilton.

I wonder what Kimi did wrong?!

[ioan]

So u have it. FIA is not biased. :)
GO ALONSO!

Never was.

[ArrowsFA1]

So u have it. FIA is not biased. :)
Well, they were even-handed today.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi's woken up at his usual time :p

[ioan]

How many mover there by Webber? Dirty from down under, when he knows he has no chance?!

[ioan]

Alonso must be laughing to death at this moment! :rotflmao:

[ShiftingGears]

I wonder what Kimi did wrong?!

Nothing - they were just looking at the incident between Raikkonen and Hamilton.


Yeah Fernando! :up:

[ioan]

I'm no Hamilton fan, but right now either a brave man or a complete idiot would bet against him being the champion this year. I mean really, all the prejudices regarding his arrogance aside, you gotta admire him for delivering a perfect lap almost always when it's needed.

He's still an idiot, no offense, but he lacks brains!

[ioan]

Hamilton needed a cooler head at the first corner, but Massa's move at the chicane was questionable.

Hamy left the door open and than shut it when the other car was there, like he did so often recently. This time his over aggressive driving bit him in the arse! It was just about time, a pitty someone else had to support the consequences.

[ArrowsFA1]

He's still an idiot, no offense, but he lacks brains!
He lacked judgement today. He took an unnecessary risk at tune 1 and paid the penalty, although it did not turn out be be as costly as it could have been thanks to Massa's errors, and Massa may have a grid penalty for the next race.

[ShiftingGears]

Hamy left the door open and than shut it when the other car was there, like he did so often recently. This time his over aggressive driving bit him in the arse! It was just about time.

100% Massa's fault there.
It's fair for a driver(Hamilton) to assume that noone would go for a gap that was never going to open up. Massa wasn't even on the road for most of the time he was attempting the pass.


Massa also left the door open for Bourdais, and shut it leaving Bourdais with nowhere to go.

So I think Massa had the lesser judgement of the two.

[truefan72]

Ferrari once again getting assitance form F1

funny howe Hamilton was the only one penalized forhis moves on the first corner, when I saw at least 3-4 other cars go wild. And for the record, he didn't push Raikkonen off the track. But the stewards had to find something to penalize LH with since they of course took 12 laps to get Massa in for his obvious hit job on LH.

By the way, all 4 of his tires were off the grass and then he went right into hamilton. Is that not a stop and go penalty?

then he gets into bourdais and with 16 laps to go they say they will investigate after the race?????
thus allowing massa to try and get points first before meting out punishment.

ridiculous.

I expect nothing less than a 10 grid penalty for Massa in the next race as that is the only penalty they can give him. There was enough time for the stop and go window, so that is out of the question.

Although LH started slow, he was still in a good position after 2 laps, overtook Massa and then had his race destroyed by massa.

Shame on massa. shame on the stewards.

[F1boat]

I am happy that Massa taught Lewis some manners. I hope that that guy will cease his "let me go or die approach". Well done for Massa.
But Alonso - he is amazing. It is fantastic. I am very happy for him, Driver of the Day!

[truefan72]

He's still an idiot, no offense, but he lacks brains!

you mean like going over the grass and curbs to hit the driver in front of you, then slamming into the Bourdais at turn 1, you mean that kind of idiot?

whatever you say, doesn't change the fact that LH is leading the WCC. Yeah, takes a special kind of idiot to do that right?

[ArrowsFA1]

Well done for Massa.
It's funny how Massa gets praise for driving into people :laugh:

[truefan72]

I am happy that Massa taught Lewis some manners. I hope that that guy will cease his "let me go or die approach". Well done for Massa.
But Alonso - he is amazing. It is fantastic. I am very happy for him, Driver of the Day!

taught who manners, were you watching the same race that millions were. LH passed massa, massa went over the curbs and grass and rammed into LH.

It's absurd to somehow think that LH had anything to do with massa's stupidity

[F1boat]

It's funny how Massa gets praise for driving into people :laugh:

For teaching Lewis some manners. They way Ham drove in Spa, Monza, utter disregard to other people's safety, utter diseragrd to rules, he needed the same threatment.
And BTW FIA punished Massa, it is all fair.

[Tonieke]

Ferrari once again getting assitance form F1

funny howe Hamilton was the only one penalized forhis moves on the first corner, when I saw at least 3-4 other cars go wild. And for the record, he didn't push Raikkonen off the track. But the stewards had to find something to penalize LH with since they of course took 12 laps to get Massa in for his obvious hit job on LH.

By the way, all 4 of his tires were off the grass and then he went right into hamilton. Is that not a stop and go penalty?

then he gets into bourdais and with 16 laps to go they say they will investigate after the race?????
thus allowing massa to try and get points first before meting out punishment.

ridiculous.

I expect nothing less than a 10 grid penalty for Massa in the next race as that is the only penalty they can give him. There was enough time for the stop and go window, so that is out of the question.

Although LH started slow, he was still in a good position after 2 laps, overtook Massa and then had his race destroyed by massa.

Shame on massa. shame on the stewards.

and am I the only one who saw the action of Felipe when passing Mark as *gaining an advantage goin of track* ?

[ShiftingGears]

I am happy that Massa taught Lewis some manners. Well done for Massa.

Are you kidding? I thought that was one of Massa's more moronic drives of the season. It was a half arsed passing move that was never going to work. Don't kid yourself.
Then he caps it off by teaching Bourdais some manners at turn one. Great work.

[christophulus]

and am I the only one who saw the action of Felipe when passing Mark as *gaining an advantage goin of track* ?

Nope, James Allen agrees with you (ITV commentator).. but then he would do. I can't see any major problem with it

[F1boat]

Then he caps it off by teaching Bourdais some manners at turn one. Great work.

FIA will say about this. About FM-Lewis, I am happy not because it was a great move but because Lewis needed such ultraaggressive tactics used on him.

[christophulus]

About FM-Lewis, I am happy not because it was a great move but because Lewis needed such ultraaggressive tactics used on him.

The price to pay being that Massa ruined his own race by doing it! Yes hindsight is a great thing, but if Massa hadn't have knocked Hamilton off he'd have come away with a load more points, so he had a pretty poor race too

[ShiftingGears]

FIA will say about this. About FM-Lewis, I am happy not because it was a great move but because Lewis needed such ultraaggressive tactics used on him.

It wasn't ultra-aggressive, Massa was just ultra moronic.

[ioan]

He lacked judgement today.

he lacks judgement about every 2nd race! :rolleyes:


He took an unnecessary risk at tune 1 and paid the penalty, although it did not turn out be be as costly

He just sent half of the grid of track, not at all costly. Which world do you live in? Hamiltonia? :laugh:



as it could have been thanks to Massa's errors, and Massa may have a grid penalty for the next race.

Massa served his (rather fishy) penalty for a racing incident with Hamy. Why should he be punished anymore? For trying hard and spinning? For what exactly?
Still I bet you would be very happy if the FIA gives Hamy the championship. They tried to do it last season, this season they will maybe manage to do it.

[truefan72]

For teaching Lewis some manners. They way Ham drove in Spa, Monza, utter disregard to other people's safety, utter diseragrd to rules, he needed the same threatment.
And BTW FIA punished him, it is all fair.

this is just idiotic. The relish some people are taking delight in, at an incident that was caused by Massa and pretty much killed LH's race is beyond reason.

If the situations were turned. I can't even imagine what the likes of you lot would be saying. So go enjoy your man's stupidty and cheer it as some sort of vindication for the LH envy you are feeling. Because this analysis of the situation has very little to do with the race and what actually transpired, and everything to do with the Ferrari love/anti-LH sentiments.

So It seems futile to even have a realistic conversation.

Oh well... as expected.

[Tonieke]

Nope, James Allen agrees with you (ITV commentator).. but then he would do. I can't see any major problem with it

rules are rules not ? see Spa !

[HenryM]

I think massa should have a stop and go for the incident with hamilton,
for the incident with bourdais, I think there's no need for punishment...

[Tonieke]

He just sent half of the grid of track, not at all costly. Which world do you live in? Hamiltonia? :laugh:


wasn't that exactly the same Bourdais did at Spa ??..what penalty he got there ? FIA consequent ? My a.....well you know what I mean ;-)

[F1boat]

this is just idiotic. The relish some people are taking delight in, at an incident that was caused by Massa and pretty much killed LH's race is beyond reason.

If the situations were turned. I can't even imagine what the likes of you lot would be saying. So go enjoy your man's stupidty and cheer it as some sort of vindication for the LH envy you are feeling. Because this analysis of the situation has very little to do with the race and what actually transpired, and everything to do with the Ferrari love/anti-LH sentiments.

So It seems futile to even have a realistic conversation.

Oh well... as expected.

Lewis always risked too much. Now he got what he desrved. If the situations was turned, however... I would not have been surprised. Not at all.

[christophulus]

rules are rules not ? see Spa !Just seen it (Massa & Webber) again on the news, and I do kind-of agree with you. Would have been pretty dangerous if someone was leaving the pits, but whether it's a penalty or not, I'm not sure

[ioan]

It wasn't ultra-aggressive, Massa was just ultra moronic.

Really? What about Webber then? Was we trying to kill Massa or what? let's see give us your best shot to talk us out of that dirty driving! :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Really? What about Webber then? Was we trying to kill Massa or what? let's see give us your best shot to talk us out of that dirty driving! :rolleyes:

The pass on Webber was extremely beautiful. IMO Massa drove very well this race.

[ShiftingGears]

Massa served his (rather fishy) penalty for a racing incident with Hamy.

Fishy? If a driver drives moronically and takes someone else out, then the penalty isn't very fishy.


They tried to do it last season, this season they will maybe manage to do it.

:rolleyes:

[Tonieke]

Just seen it again on the news, and I do kind-of agree with you. Would have been pretty dangerous if someone was leaving the pits, but whether it's a penalty or not, I don't know

well he went of track with 4 wheels....otherwise what are those white lines for ? clearly gaining an advantage..and it was like you said..a dangerous move....

again rules are rules..he should get a penalty for it !

[HenryM]

webber tried to push massa into the wall...
this from a driver 1.5s slower per lap...

[gloomyDAY]

Damn, what a race!

No SC cars, no fluff, just straight hard racing.
The stewards got all the right calls and ZERO controversy.

What happened on the track stays on the track.
Time to dust our hands of this race and move onto China.

[F1boat]

Damn, what a race!

No SC cars, no fluff, just straight hard racing.
The stewards got all the right calls and ZERO controversy.

What happened on the track stays on the track.
Time to dust our hands of this race and move onto China.

Well said.

[ShiftingGears]

Really? What about Webber then? Was we trying to kill Massa or what? let's see give us your best shot to talk us out of that dirty driving! :rolleyes:

I did not see it, as I was trying to watch two TVs at once.


Which doesn't excuse Massa from driving like a moron.

[ioan]

100% Massa's fault there.
It's fair for a driver(Hamilton) to assume that noone would go for a gap that was never going to open up.

News brake: they are racing and is stupid to assume that no one will go for a pass when you let the door open like that. or maybe it's about racing only when Lewy is the one pulling the good moves? Hypocrisy, anyone?! :rolleyes:



Massa wasn't even on the road for most of the time he was attempting the pass.


He was on the kerbs, they all use them when needed (at least a few times every lap.



Massa also left the door open for Bourdais, and shut it leaving Bourdais with nowhere to go.

Really? Last I checked Bourdais had more than enough place on the inside and didn't even had to blink in order to continue his race.

[ioan]

I did not see it, as I was trying to watch two TVs at once.


Ah you didn't see it? Watch a reply, or by a 3rd TV! What an utterly poor excuse, given that we got a couple of replays of the move! :rotflmao:

[truefan72]

webber tried to push massa into the wall...
this from a driver 1.5s slower per lap...

just as raikkonen pushed Hamilton into the curbs in spa right?

[christophulus]

He (Massa) was on the kerbs, they all use them when needed (at least a few times every lap.

He had all four wheels off the track and knocked Hamilton off. Fair penalty.

It's all irrelevant really because they both had a bad race.. let's just move on to China and start over

[ioan]

It's funny how Massa gets praise for driving into people :laugh:

Are you sad because Felipe fought back into the points while Lewy was being lapped?! :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

he lacks judgement about every 2nd race! :rolleyes:
Of course he does ioan. That's why he's leading the championship :rolleyes: Hamilton deserves most of the criticism he's getting for his move at turn 1, and the stewards penalised him for it.

He just sent half of the grid of track, not at all costly. Which world do you live in? Hamiltonia? :laugh:
Use my comments in context ioan. I said "it did not turn out be be as costly as it could have been thanks to Massa's errors". Without Massa driving into the side of Hamilton and then Bourdais Felipe could have gained a lot of points in the WDC chase. Massa damaged his WDC chances as much as Hamilton did today, so from that point of view Hamilton's penalty was not as costly as it could have been.

Massa served his (rather fishy) penalty for a racing incident with Hamy. Why should he be punished anymore? For trying hard and spinning? For what exactly?
For causing a second avoidable incident when he hit Bourdais.

Still I bet you would be very happy if the FIA gives Hamy the championship. They tried to do it last season, this season they will maybe manage to do it.
You'd lose your money with that bet ioan. I wouldn't be happy if the FIA "gave" the WDC to anyone.

Are you sad because Felipe fought back into the points while Lewy was being lapped?! :laugh:
No, just finding it funny that Massa gets praised for driving into people.

[ioan]

For teaching Lewis some manners. They way Ham drove in Spa, Monza, utter disregard to other people's safety, utter diseragrd to rules, he needed the same threatment.
And BTW FIA punished him, it is all fair.

this is just idiotic.

Hey, look, :eek: personal attacks! Not that I am so surprized given that it comes from you! :rolleyes:



So It seems futile to even have a realistic conversation.

Oh well... as expected.

You call others idiots and you expect them to have a conversation with you? What next?
Wait I know, you will remind us that Lewy is black and that we are all racist! calling the others idiots and racists! That's your favorite card, we all know it already!

[Tonieke]

Are you sad because Felipe fought back into the points while Lewy was being lapped?! :laugh:

you know what is sad..you defending a move that was clearly wrong..

[Tazio]

Massa put 4 wheels over because he was squeezed by his competition.
The incident with SB was worse. That would be more deserving of a penalty!
It still could happen considering there was not enough time to do an
investigation and impose a drive through.
Theoretically!

BTW--- http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8106/Anthems/france.htm

[Viktory]

Hamilton and Massa both deserved their drive-throughs in my opinion.
Hopefully nothing will come of the Bourdais incident, don't think that deserves a penalty.

[Tonieke]

Massa put 4 wheels over because he was squeezed by his competition.


Just like Kimi did with Lewis in Spa you mean ?

[ShiftingGears]

Ah you didn't see it? Watch a reply, or by a 3rd TV! What an utterly poor excuse, given that we got a couple of replays of the move! :rotflmao:

Got a problem with what I watch?

[ioan]

webber tried to push massa into the wall...
this from a driver 1.5s slower per lap...

Don't lose your time! ;)
Around here Massa is seen to be a moron while Webber is one of the racing Gods.

[truefan72]

Hey, look, :eek: personal attacks! Not that I am so surprized given that it comes from you! :rolleyes:



You call others idiots and you expect them to have a conversation with you? What next?
Wait I know, you will remind us that Lewy is black and that we are all racist! calling the others idiots and racists! That's your favorite card, we all know it already!


you know when you are wrong you usually resort to the pity card to deflect from the obvious. You accuse me of personal attacks when I don't and in the meanwhile you've hurled at least 3 on others. That's truly sad and a glass jaw if I saw any, especially from a phantom punch. LOL

I called the conversation idiotic. I didn't call anyone an idiot. But of course you go down that nonsensical path as soon as you know there is nothing else to stand on in your analysis.

I really don't expect to have a conversation with you, because it is pretty pointless as you already can't see that what massa did was clearly wrong. And I'm pretty much sure if it was Hamilton who hit Massa, you would be lighting up these boards like a christmas tree.

Anyway, If that's the path you want to go down on, have fun. Cause I don't intend to stoop to your level of rhetoric. So I'll happily chat with others and you can ignore me as to not be "offended" by phantom insults that only you can see.

fair enough?

[Tonieke]

Don't lose your time! ;)
Around here Massa is seen to be a moron while Webber is one of the racing Gods.

how many people on here literally said that ? about Massa being a moran...YOU are the one of the few on here who likes to call drivers names !

[christophulus]

The Massa-Hamilton incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca2SWZ-Dcvk

[ioan]

just as raikkonen pushed Hamilton into the curbs in spa right?

60 kmh =/= 300+kmh
Life =/= Death

:rolleyes:

[Kevincal]

Massa put his left wheels on the dirt and the right wheels ON the curb...not 4wheels over the curb. And gee, maybe Massa was holding his position like that because of the bonehead maneuvers Lewis pulled to start the whole chain reaction of crap behind him... Massa should not have been penalized.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

im suprised noone has mentioned massas move on webber, the fia screwed lewis at spa for running off the track (which is defined by the white lines) and gaining an advantage, well massa did the same didnt he? he ran under the white line and over the hatchings denoting the side of the track and passed to gain a position and one point? to use ferraris argument from the spa incident, if there was a brick wall there he couldnt have done it, therefore he gained an advantage!

[ioan]

you know when you are wrong you usually resort to the pity card to deflect from the obvious. You accuse me of personal attacks when I don't and in the meanwhile you've hurled at least 3 on others. That's truly sad and a glass jaw if I saw any, especially from a phantom punch. LOL

I called the conversation idiotic. I didn't call anyone an idiot. But of course you go down that nonsensical path as soon as you know there is nothing else to stand on in your analysis.

I really don't expect to have a conversation with you, because it is pretty pointless as you already can't see that what massa did was clearly wrong. And I'm pretty much sure if it was Hamilton who hit Massa, you would be lighting up these boards like a christmas tree.

Anyway, If that's the path you want to go down on, have fun. Cause I don't intend to stoop to your level of rhetoric. So I'll happily chat with others and you can ignore me as to not be "offended" by phantom insults that only you can see.

fair enough?

Bla bla bla bla bla! Bla bla bla bla bla!
Want some more of your discussions?
Wait I'll introduce some personal attacks and a bit of racist accusations, it will look more like it! :rotflmao:

[Hondo]

1-Kimi 2-Alonso 3-Kubica

I was sooooooo close!

[truefan72]

The Massa-Hamilton incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca2SWZ-Dcvk

that was quick.

Good stuff.

[christophulus]

I didn't post it on Youtube, found it while browsing.

But no problem, at least we can all make an accurate judgement now :P

[Tazio]

Just like Kimi did with Lewis in Spa you mean ? I’m referring to the pass on Webber!
4 wheels over the pit out lane, Einstein!
Get a clue!
I doubt I even commented on that spa incident!

[Tonieke]

im suprised noone has mentioned massas move on webber, the fia screwed lewis at spa for running off the track (which is defined by the white lines) and gaining an advantage, well massa did the same didnt he? he ran under the white line and over the hatchings denoting the side of the track and passed to gain a position and one point? to use ferraris argument from the spa incident, if there was a brick wall there he couldnt have done it, therefore he gained an advantage!

I already mentioned it in this thread..i also find it weird he will not get a penalty for it...But well who are we right ? lol

otherwise someone has to explain me what those big white lines are mend for ?

[Tonieke]

I’m referring to the pass on Webber!
4 wheels over the pit out lane, Einstein!
Get a clue!
I doubt I even commented on that spa incident!


he already was 4 wheels of track on the straight..before the pit out lane mister..just for your information !

[ShiftingGears]

I’m referring to the pass on Webber!
4 wheels over the pit out lane, Einstein!
Get a clue!
I doubt I even commented on that spa incident!

That would be why he said like, as in, has similiarity to.

[ioan]

The Massa-Hamilton incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca2SWZ-Dcvk

Someone better learn to look in his mirrors before closing the door next time.

[ioan]

Of course he does ioan. That's why he's leading the championship :rolleyes: Hamilton deserves most of the criticism he's getting for his move at turn 1, and the stewards penalised him for it.

Use my comments in context ioan. I said "it did not turn out be be as costly as it could have been thanks to Massa's errors". Without Massa driving into the side of Hamilton and then Bourdais Felipe could have gained a lot of points in the WDC chase. Massa damaged his WDC chances as much as Hamilton did today, so from that point of view Hamilton's penalty was not as costly as it could have been.

For causing a second avoidable incident when he hit Bourdais.

You'd lose your money with that bet ioan. I wouldn't be happy if the FIA "gave" the WDC to anyone.

No, just finding it funny that Massa gets praised for driving into people.

Oh the apologetic McLaren defender. :s

[ioan]

you know what is sad..you defending a move that was clearly wrong..

Clearly wrong? :laugh:
Maybe for you, this should give you a clue.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh the apologetic McLaren defender. :s

Pasting a label on someone is oh so much easier than having to justify your opinions with facts.

[ioan]

Got a problem with what I watch?

No, I got a problem with you attacking drivers while you don't even watch the races,or at least you don't see them.

[ioan]

Pasting a label on someone is oh so much easier than having to justify your opinions with facts.

I justified my opinion before his post, how many times should I do it? :rolleyes:
Calling someone a McLaren defender is nowadays offending? Or maybe he isn't a McLaren defender in your opinion? :confused:

[christophulus]

Oh the apologetic McLaren defender. :s

ArrowsFA1's post seems completely un-biased to me.

[ShiftingGears]

No, I got a problem with you attacking drivers while you don't even watch the races,or at least you don't see them.

I have a problem with you thinking that if I don't see Massa passing Webber, somehow precludes me from passing judgement on a totally seperate incident. That's just dumb.

[F1boat]

People, people. From this amazing race to comment only this... please share what did you like about it, whar are your fave moments, what impressed you?

[christophulus]

Bourdais given 25 second penalty for Massa "incident"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71351

What??!

[ioan]

Massa put his left wheels on the dirt and the right wheels ON the curb...not 4wheels over the curb. And gee, maybe Massa was holding his position like that because of the bonehead maneuvers Lewis pulled to start the whole chain reaction of crap behind him... Massa should not have been penalized.

Massa saw an opportunity and went for it, like any racing driver would do including the "balls to the walls best ever" Lewy, the only problem is that DC2 was the guy he was trying to overtake, and we all know who is the 2nd guy who doesn't know that his car got rear view mirrors, he showed it every time he had an occasion.
Or maybe he simply thought that by closing the door he will destroy Massa's front wing and he'll be better off.
Anyway, giving a penalty for an obvious racing incidents can be only in the best interest of keeping things leveled.

[Tonieke]

Someone better learn to look in his mirrors before closing the door next time.

Again kinda like Kimi should have in Spa right ? watching his mirrors...that's what you are trying to say there no ? At least that someone in Spa did everything to avoid a collision..what not can be said in this case !

[ioan]

Bourdais given 25 second penalty for Massa "incident"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71351

What??!

What were you expecting exactly? Who was on the track and who was coming out of the pits and should have taken more care?

[Ranger]

Bourdais given 25 second penalty for Massa "incident"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71351

What??!

F1 is officially a nanny-state. Don't try to overtake or you'll get punished.

Massa expected Bourdais to bend over, he didn't, and Bourdais gets penalised despite both drivers being equally contributory to that accident.

Absolutely rubbish penalty.

[ioan]

Again kinda like Kimi should have in Spa right ? watching his mirrors...that's what you are trying to say there no ? At least that someone in Spa did everything to avoid a collision..what not can be said in this case !

I don't remember Kimi hitting Lewis at that moment. Closing the door on an overtaker has to be done at a certain moment, looks like Kimi knows how to do it, Hamy has to learn it yet.

[Tonieke]

What were you expecting exactly? Who was on the track and who was coming out of the pits and should have taken more care?


thought you always told me the driver on the inside of the corner has the racing line ? You so confuses me all the time ioan..changing your view on things depending who is involved !

[F1boat]

Bourdais given 25 second penalty for Massa "incident"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71351

What??!
:)

[Tonieke]

I don't remember Kimi hitting Lewis at that moment. Closing the door on an overtaker has to be done at a certain moment, looks like Kimi knows how to do it, Hamy has to learn it yet.

hahahaha OMG..are you serious when you say it was actualy Lewis hitting Felipe ?

[ShiftingGears]

News brake: they are racing and is stupid to assume that no one will go for a pass when you let the door open like that. or maybe it's about racing only when Lewy is the one pulling the good moves? Hypocrisy, anyone?! :rolleyes:

Massa was too far back to make the passing move stick. I thought it was poorly judged, on his part. In other words, going for a gap that was never going to open.



Really? Last I checked Bourdais had more than enough place on the inside and didn't even had to blink in order to continue his race.

And in my opinion, Massa could've also gone through the corner wider. But the stewards didn't think so, unfortunately.

[christophulus]

What were you expecting exactly? Who was on the track and who was coming out of the pits and should have taken more care?

More care? Bourdais held his line, Massa could've easily avoided him. Instead he squeezed him to the inside and the inevitable happened. The way you put it makes it sound like people should just bend over and let Ferrari pass. It was a fight for position and therefore Bourdais had the right to hold his line.

[ShiftingGears]

Never was [biased].



Still I bet you would be very happy if the FIA gives Hamy the championship. They tried to do it last season, this season they will maybe manage to do it.

Yes, I certainly am a hypocrite. I am going to put you on my ignore list now.

[ArrowsFA1]

What were you expecting exactly? Who was on the track and who was coming out of the pits and should have taken more care?
Didn't you say earlier "Someone better learn to look in his mirrors before closing the door next time." Doesn't that apply in the Massa/Bourdais case?

[Ranger]

More care? Bourdais held his line, Massa could've easily avoided him. Instead he squeezed him to the inside and the inevitable happened. The way you put it makes it sound like people should just bend over and let Ferrari pass. It was a fight for position and therefore Bourdais had the right to hold his line.

Yep...shouldn't have resulted in a penalty for either, though.

[ShiftingGears]

Didn't you say earlier "Someone better learn to look in his mirrors before closing the door next time." Doesn't that apply in the Massa/Bourdais case?

You reasoned McLaren defender, you.

[christophulus]

Yep...shouldn't have resulted in a penalty for either, though.

I agree, it's a ridiculous decision

[Triumph]

Another helping hand for Ferrari then. I thought it couldn't become any more obvious after the Spa nonsense, but now twice in one GP. Unbelievable!

Just to stamp out any possible gain for Lewis Hamilton during Massa's drive-through penalty they dream up a pentaly situation for him too. Then when they hadn't manipulated things enough, they dream up an even more outrageous penalty scenario to help Ferrari further still.

Things are getting beyond a joke now. I wonder what they will think of next.

[ShiftingGears]

Actually, Lewis' drive through should probably have been Heikki's, considering that Heikki forced Kimi off road, and not Lewis.


Bourdais got short changed. Not happy!

[F1boat]

Well, while I watched the race, our commentator suggested that Le Seb should be punished. And he IS a Hamilton fan. But he is not blind McLaren follower. I am so amused to see the people who wanted more penalties to Massa now...

[richj]

TURN OFF - It's become a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[christophulus]

Actually, Lewis' drive through should probably have been Heikki's, considering that Heikki forced Kimi off road, and not Lewis.

Hmm, just watched it again. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5KReYtyew). Think it was a bit of a team effort really. No matter though because the FIA detonated Kovalainen's engine when they issued the penalty :p (yes, I'm JOKING)


Bourdais got short changed. Not happy!

Makes you wonder whether he'll want to stay in F1 next year! He doesn't exactly get a lot of luck..

[ioan]

I have a problem with you thinking that if I don't see Massa passing Webber, somehow precludes me from passing judgement on a totally seperate incident. That's just dumb.

What an intelligent post! Why is that I'm not surprised?
Saying someone else is dumb won't make you any more intelligent than you are. :p :

[Dave B]

Four contraversial incidents to comment on:

Hamilton / Raikkonen / Kovalainen at the start

I've watched the start many times now and it's clear that while Lewis made an absolute hash of things, forcing Kimi to drive towards the very edge of the track, Hamilton was a clear 2 or 3 meters ahead when Kovy pushed Kimi off.

There's no excuse for the boneheaded start Hamilton made, but it was the wrong McLaren which got the blame for Kimi leaving the track.

Even so, how many times at the start of pretty much every race do we see people pushed wide - especially down the order? And yet this is the first time I can remember a driver being penalised for it.

Massa / Hamilton

Pretty clear-cut, this one. Massa made an optimistic dive down the inside, cutting the chicane with all four wheels. This alone mandates a penalty under the new post-Spa rules, never mind the fact that he also went on to cause an avoidable collision.

Massa / Bordais

I can't believe Sebastien is the one suffering over this when he clearly was the victim of Massa shutting the door on him. I hope Toro Rosso are to appeal but I doubt they'll get very far as we now now that 25-second penalties can't be appealed :rolleyes:

Massa / Webber

Not so black and white this time. Massa clearly had all four wheels off the circuit, but you could argue that it was a fair move as Webber had moved over to defend his position.


So four incidents, three of them involving Massa.

[ioan]

thought you always told me the driver on the inside of the corner has the racing line ? You so confuses me all the time ioan..changing your view on things depending who is involved !

Not my fault that you are confused! :p :

[ioan]

Didn't you say earlier "Someone better learn to look in his mirrors before closing the door next time." Doesn't that apply in the Massa/Bourdais case?

Which one was leaving the pit lane? Massa or Bourdais? Not a difficult call at all. You only need to understand the rules in F1.

[ioan]

Four contraversial incidents to comment on:

Hamilton / Raikkonen / Kovalainen at the start

I've watched the start many times now and it's clear that while Lewis made an absolute hash of things, forcing Kimi to drive towards the very edge of the track, Hamilton was a clear 2 or 3 meters ahead when Kovy pushed Kimi off.

I bet this is the best take on it:



I got a pretty good start but then braking into Turn 1 I was trying to turn and there was first one McLaren and then a second," he said. "Both hit me and I had nowhere to go other than straight.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352

Looks like the McLaren's were rather playing bowling than racing with cars.

[ioan]

Four contraversial incidents to comment on:

Hamilton / Raikkonen / Kovalainen at the start

I've watched the start many times now and it's clear that while Lewis made an absolute hash of things, forcing Kimi to drive towards the very edge of the track, Hamilton was a clear 2 or 3 meters ahead when Kovy pushed Kimi off.

I bet this is the best take on it:



I got a pretty good start but then braking into Turn 1 I was trying to turn and there was first one McLaren and then a second," he said. "Both hit me and I had nowhere to go other than straight.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352

Looks like the McLaren's were rather playing bowling than racing with cars.

[jens]

Bourdais vs Massa incident was Massa's fault. He was on the outside and had no reason to start banging wheels - he was behind and wasn't going to pass Bourdais that way. The penalties are getting ridiculous. I don't fully understand the penalty imposed on Hamilton's start either. Massa's penalty probably has some justification as he was cutting the corner before hitting Hamilton.

[ioan]

Actually, Lewis' drive through should probably have been Heikki's, considering that Heikki forced Kimi off road, and not Lewis.


Both McLaren's hit Raikkonen's car:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352

[ioan]

Bourdais vs Massa incident was Massa's fault. He was on the outside and had no reason to start banging wheels - he was behind and wasn't going to pass Bourdais that way. The penalties are getting ridiculous. I don't fully understand the penalty imposed on Hamilton's start either. Massa's penalty probably has some justification as he was cutting the corner before hitting Hamilton.

I wonder why Kimi didn't do to Kubica the same thing that Bourdais did to Massa, brake hard and push him wide?
Maybe because if it's close the driver coming down the straight has priority over the one coming out of the pits.

You lot should get your head into the regulations before starting predicting penalties for Massa when it isn't his fault.

[ArrowsFA1]

...how many times at the start of pretty much every race do we see people pushed wide - especially down the order? And yet this is the first time I can remember a driver being penalised for it.
I've been thinking about that since the race ended. Can't think of one instance where any penalty has been issued before today.


Which one was leaving the pit lane? Massa or Bourdais? Not a difficult call at all. You only need to understand the rules in F1.
Ok, so which rule relating to leaving the pit lane applies then ioan? Bourdais would (I hope) have been given the blue light at the exit of the pit lane warning him that another car was approaching. He didn't cross the white line to block or impede Massa approaching the corner in any way so what rule applies? You say you understand the rules so point us to the specific rule.

[ArrowsFA1]

I bet this is the best take on it:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352
Or this:

"Kimi initially jumped Lewis and then I think Lewis was trying to fight back. They both went a bit deep and I also went a bit deep. I don't know... I thought it was just a normal first corner."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71341

[christophulus]

Both McLaren's hit Raikkonen's car:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352

I'm not convinced that either car actually made contact, but I don't have any evidence to decide one way or the other. Regardless, the penalty was given.

Video of the start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5KReYtyew

[ArrowsFA1]

I wonder why Kimi didn't do to Kubica the same thing that Bourdais did to Massa, brake hard and push him wide?
Bourdais:

"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was. I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner. I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

[ioan]

Or this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71341

So you mean that Kimi was lying when he said that both McLaren's hit his car?
Or you mean that McLaren has the right to play destruction derby with the other team's cars?

Find a better excuse. Kovalainen has plenty of reasons to distort the truth, because he was one of the drivers at mistake in that 1st turn blunder.

[ioan]

I'm not convinced that either car actually made contact, but I don't have any evidence to decide one way or the other. Regardless, the penalty was given.

Video of the start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5KReYtyew

At 0:23 contact with Hamy, at 0:25 contact with Kovi.

[ioan]

Bourdais:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

So, if one driver comes down the straight and another leaves the pit exit lane at the same moment, which one has to yield? I bet there is a rule for that.

Bourdais' move was even more stupid given that he wasn't in direct contention with Massa for his position given that Massa still had to make a pit stop.

[ArrowsFA1]

So you mean that Kimi was lying when he said that both McLaren's hit his car?
Or you mean that McLaren has the right to play destruction derby with the other team's cars?
I'm am saying there is more than one version of events. You've quoted Kimi's view as "the best take" but there were other drivers there, one of them being Kovalainen.

So, if one driver comes down the straight and another leaves the pit exit lane at the same moment, which one has to yield? I bet there is a rule for that.
If there is I'm sure you can find it.

[christophulus]

At 0:23 contact with Hamy, at 0:25 contact with Kovi.

Fortunately I taped the race, so I've just watched the start again (the video on Youtube isn't the greatest quality).

I'm now convinced that Hamilton and Raikkonen did NOT make contact, they were very close, and LH maybe forced him to change direction, but Hamilton didn't hit him. As for Kovalainen, I can't tell.

We could really use an onboard shot to say for definite, but saying he "hit" Raikkonen doesn't seem completely accurate

[F1boat]

So why Kimi felt the hits? It Lewy a Jedi? Maybe he used the Force?

[christophulus]

I wonder why Kimi didn't do to Kubica the same thing that Bourdais did to Massa, brake hard and push him wide?


Bourdais' move was even more stupid given that he wasn't in direct contention with Massa for his position given that Massa still had to make a pit stop.

Once again the camera angles really aren't helpful, do you have some evidence of Bourdais pushing him wide? Why are you so convinced Massa didn't close the door on him? What gives Massa the right to force other people out of the way, just because he's pitting soon doesn't give him the right to force Bourdais to yield.

Why can't the FIA release the onboard footage of these incidents? It'd save a lot of arguments.

[christophulus]

So why Kimi felt the hits? It Lewy a Jedi? Maybe he used the Force?

My personal view is that no contact was made. My decision has been based on the views of the incident broadcast on TV - not great shots but the best we have.

I wasn't in the Ferrari, but blindly taking Raikkonen's word for it and accusing Hamilton without definitive proof is not an acceptable way to make a judgement.

If someone can find me a better camera angle that shows LH hitting KR at the first corner, I'll gladly take this back

[woody2goody]

So you mean that Kimi was lying when he said that both McLaren's hit his car?
Or you mean that McLaren has the right to play destruction derby with the other team's cars?

Find a better excuse. Kovalainen has plenty of reasons to distort the truth, because he was one of the drivers at mistake in that 1st turn blunder.

Kovalainen hit him, but Hamilton didn't. Come on, people who watched the race aren't stupid, it was obvious Hamilton didn't hit either Ferrari.

And Bourdais no way deserved a penalty. You saying Bourdais was stupid to defend his position is ridiculous. If anything Massa should have used better judgement against a higher placed opponent especially knowing he had to stop again very soon.

I knew as soon as it happened that the FIA and the stewards were going to ruin Bourdais' best F1 race. Shame on them, and shame on you.

[woody2goody]

So you mean that Kimi was lying when he said that both McLaren's hit his car?
Or you mean that McLaren has the right to play destruction derby with the other team's cars?

Find a better excuse. Kovalainen has plenty of reasons to distort the truth, because he was one of the drivers at mistake in that 1st turn blunder.

Kovalainen hit him, but Hamilton didn't. Come on, people who watched the race aren't stupid, it was obvious Hamilton didn't hit either Ferrari. He didn't make contact with Raikkonen, nor was it at high speed, so no penalty should be given.

And Bourdais no way deserved a penalty. You saying Bourdais was stupid to defend his position is ridiculous. If anything Massa should have used better judgement against a higher placed opponent especially knowing he had to stop again very soon.

I knew as soon as it happened that the FIA and the stewards were going to ruin Bourdais' best F1 race. Shame on them, and shame on you.

If you penalised drivers every time a similar incident happened at the start, half the field would end up with a drive through penalty. And Lewis would probably receive two.

[jens]

The disappointing factor abount current F1 is that... even if we have a great race, then after the competition the main attention goes to penalties/FIA and the racing itself is left in the shadow.

[ArrowsFA1]

The disappointing factor abount current F1 is that... even if we have a great race, then after the competition the main attention goes to penalties/FIA and the racing itself is left in the shadow.
:up:

[Dave B]

The disappointing factor abount current F1 is that... even if we have a great race, then after the competition the main attention goes to penalties/FIA and the racing itself is left in the shadow.

Amen :(

[ioan]

Once again the camera angles really aren't helpful, do you have some evidence of Bourdais pushing him wide? Why are you so convinced Massa didn't close the door on him? What gives Massa the right to force other people out of the way, just because he's pitting soon doesn't give him the right to force Bourdais to yield.

You can't close the door when you are overtaking someone on the outside.



Why can't the FIA release the onboard footage of these incidents? It'd save a lot of arguments.

That's a good question.

[ioan]

And Bourdais no way deserved a penalty. You saying Bourdais was stupid to defend his position is ridiculous. If anything Massa should have used better judgement against a higher placed opponent especially knowing he had to stop again very soon.

At that very moment they were equally place, but given that Massa was still to take a pit stop and that Bourdais was the one exiting the pits, it would have been correct and also intelligent for Bourdais not to get involved into what happened.

[ioan]

The disappointing factor abount current F1 is that... even if we have a great race, then after the competition the main attention goes to penalties/FIA and the racing itself is left in the shadow.

So, if you don't catch and convict a murder during the act than you better let him off?!
Some people have a rather weird logic around here.

[Dave B]

At that very moment they were equally place, but given that Massa was still to take a pit stop and that Bourdais was the one exiting the pits, it would have been correct and also intelligent for Bourdais not to get involved into what happened.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you seriously suggesting that priority should be given to whichever driver is yet to make a pit stop, irrespective of their relative positions on or off the racing line?

[jens]

So, if you don't catch and convict a murder during the act than you better let him off?!
Some people have a rather weird logic around here.

You compare a small driving miscalculation with a murder? Folks are annoyed that the penalties are given for almost non-existant faults. Heidfeld's Singapore incident was another case.

We have had huge crashes and pile-ups in the past, where nobody has been penalized. There weren't complaints about it. It was regarded as part of racing. Why is it now so over-controlled? In every race weekend we have so many penalties that there doesn't seem to be much "genuine racing" any more.

[Ranger]

So, if you don't catch and convict a murder during the act than you better let him off?!
Some people have a rather weird logic around here.

That's a stupid analogy! :down:

It's called racing. Accidents happen when racing. Why the stewards have suddenly become so stringent in penalising these accidents especially over the past 3-4 years, and especially this year, is beyond me. (and I haven't even get to the pit lane stop-go penalties under safety car!)

At least a few years ago most penalties that were handed out were mostly deserved unlike the rubbish we've had this season. :mad:

[ioan]

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you seriously suggesting that priority should be given to whichever driver is yet to make a pit stop, irrespective of their relative positions on or off the racing line?

Priority should be given to the driver that is already on track when you rejoin if it happens to be at the very same moment.
Not fighting with Massa cause it wasn't his direct competition was a judgement that would have needed only a bit of i common sense.
But hey, common sense from a driver who complains that he always get's punished by the stewards when he's involved in an incident?

[ioan]

That's a stupid analogy! :down:

It's called racing. Accidents happen when racing. Why the stewards have suddenly become so stringent in penalising these accidents especially over the past 3-4 years, and especially this year, is beyond me. (and I haven't even get to the pit lane stop-go penalties under safety car!)

At least a few years ago most penalties that were handed out were mostly deserved unlike the rubbish we've had this season. :mad:

The guilty one must be punished for their mistakes, otherwise there is no order.
I'm not watching F1 for fun but for the technology and for the competition. you can't let cheating go unpunished in a competition, even if it would make it more interesting for fans of a certain player.
A competition has rules and penalties for when the rules are broken. Is it so complicated to understand?

[ioan]

You compare a small driving miscalculation with a murder?

You can compare it with a road car accident too, the one at fault will ultimately pay for his "small driving miscalculation".

[christophulus]

You can't close the door when you are overtaking someone on the outside.

OK, wrong choice of words, maybe Massa was 'squeezing him to the inside of the track' or something equivalent to that. But from what I could see, Bourdais couldn't move over anymore without cutting the corner. Again, I'll take back that statement if someone finds evidence that proves otherwise.


Priority should be given to the driver that is already on track when you rejoin if it happens to be at the very same moment.
Not fighting with Massa cause it wasn't his direct competition was a judgement that would have needed only a bit of i common sense.

Is that an FIA rule or an opinion?

[Dave B]

But from what I could see, Bourdais couldn't move over anymore without cutting the corner. Again, I'll take back that statement if someone finds evidence that proves otherwise.
See my links in the "primadonna" thread. I don't think you'll need to eat your words. :)

[Allyc85]

The stewards and the FIA are a disgrace and make them selevs look more and more incompetent each race. How the hell can a driver be worthy of a 25 second penallty when he enters a corner side by side. I also dont see why we cant see onboard footage from Massas car for both incidents?

Ban racing I say........

[Ranger]

The guilty one must be punished for their mistakes, otherwise there is no order.
I'm not watching F1 for fun but for the technology and for the competition. you can't let cheating go unpunished in a competition, even if it would make it more interesting for fans of a certain player.
A competition has rules and penalties for when the rules are broken. Is it so complicated to understand?

No. Because stupid rules = Stupid consequences, and they get seemingly more stupid every year.

When most rules in the FIA rulebook have grey areas the size of Fuji's runoff areas it's not surprising we get stupid penalty applications leading to the post-race calamities we often have.

And that's certainly not why I watch F1.

[ioan]

OK, wrong choice of words, maybe Massa was 'squeezing him to the inside of the track' or something equivalent to that. But from what I could see, Bourdais couldn't move over anymore without cutting the corner. Again, I'll take back that statement if someone finds evidence that proves otherwise.

I watched that video so many times and I'm still convinced that when they touch Bourdais is more close to the middle of the road than to the kerbs. maybe he carried to much speed and couldn't keep the car turning on a tight radius, I don't know.
A view from another angle would help a lot, but we don't have one.

[ioan]

No. Because stupid rules = Stupid consequences, and they get seemingly more stupid every year.

When most rules in the FIA rulebook have grey areas the size of Fuji's runoff areas it's not surprising we get stupid penalty applications leading to the post-race calamities we often have.

And that's certainly not why I watch F1.

You can't have a competition without rules. And when the competition is tighter the rules must be tighter cause that's when the competitors will try to cheat most.

[ArrowsFA1]

Is that an FIA rule or an opinion?
I've asked that question of ioan already, and am still waiting for an answer.

Where's that rule ioan? :)

[dwboogityfan]

Ioan I do find your posts to be extremely amusing at times. You are so clearly pro-Ferrari it is untrue - you're not really an FIA steward are you!!!!
I am a Lewis Hamilton fan but admit that I can see why he was given a penalty today - his move was optimistic.
As for you trying to blame Lewis for colliding with Massa in an earlier post I would take off those red tinted glasses. This was clearly at best an over optimistic move by Massa or a deliberate attempt to have Hamilton off the road. The pictures clearly show that he had no wheels on the actual circuit whilst trying this move.
And I guess Bourdais was meant to stop and let Massa pass him (because he drives the red car). How Bourdais can be punished for this is amazing as it seemed to be Massa at fault.
And no I don't think Massa did anything wrong when passing Webber. That was just good racing!

[Ranger]

I've asked that question of ioan already, and am still waiting for an answer.

Where's that rule ioan? :)

I already browsed the sporting regs this arvo. IIRC there is no specific rule relating to what happened regarding pitlanes, and this is much less so considering the incident was 200 metres or more from the pitlane exit.

[VkmSpouge]

Well done Fernando Alonso for another fine victory, he really knows how to capitalise on other people's mistakes. Robert Kubica done exceedingly well to hold off Kimi Raikkonen's challenge and is now playing himself into contention for the title (BMW Sauber will now be thinking they should have developed the 2008 car more).

Looking at the three penalty worthy incidents frankly I'm not sure any of them deserved a penalty.

We've seen cars out braking themselves into the first corner at the start almost every race with cars being forced off the track and I have never seen a penalty handed out. Lewis Hamilton was certainly to blame for the incident but looking at the replay he didn't actually force Raikkonen off the track, the Finn would have made the corner but Heikki Kovalainen (also out braking himself) appeared on his inside thereby Raikkonen had go a little wider and left the track. I don't think any of that deserved a penalty otherwise we'll see some very boring starts.

Massa hitting Hamilton is a tougher one to decide on. Massa had completely left the track for a moment and hit Hamilton but then where else was Massa supposed to go?

Bourdais and Massa colliding is also not a penalty worthy incident. Massa cut across Bourdais and got spun, again where was Bourdais supposed to go in this?

You know with the new regulations regarding aerodynamic pieces coming in next season (hopefully) making overtaking easier we're going to see a lot more of these penalties unless the stewards back off and let drivers race.

[ioan]

I've asked that question of ioan already, and am still waiting for an answer.

Where's that rule ioan? :)

That's a rule, if you are coming out of the pit lane you should not get involved in a dangerous dicing with cars coming at high speed down the straight, it's also why there is a white line that is getting longer and longer every season.
Those who watched f1 for a longer period remember that there was no such delimitation line a few year ago.

[ioan]

Massa hitting Hamilton is a tougher one to decide on. Massa had completely left the track for a moment and hit Hamilton but then where else was Massa supposed to go?

Bourdais and Massa colliding is also not a penalty worthy incident. Massa cut across Bourdais and got spun, again where was Bourdais supposed to go in this?

Ultimately after watching the videos again and again I have to say that I agree with both penalties.
Massa was too optimistic, and I won't condemn him for trying, but it was his fault for sure.

Bourdais was already passed at the moment his car touched Massa's car, sure he was on the inside with a heavier car and on cold tires, thus with less agility, but he should have taken more care given these conditions.

[christophulus]

That's a rule, if you are coming out of the pit lane you should not get involved in a dangerous dicing with cars coming at high speed down the straight, it's also why there is a white line that is getting longer and longer every season.
Those who watched f1 for a longer period remember that there was no such delimitation line a few year ago.

I know about the white line, and Bourdais didn't cross it. The incident happened at the first corner, on the racetrack, so in my view Bourdais had the right to hold his line and make Massa go around the outside. As to whose fault the contact was.. I don't know. The penalty seems harsh though

[ArrowsFA1]

That's a rule, if you are coming out of the pit lane you should not get involved in a dangerous dicing with cars coming at high speed down the straight...
Where in the rules does it say that, or anything like it?

...it's also why there is a white line that is getting longer and longer every season.
The white/blend line is there for safety reasons certainly but the white line played no part in the Massa/Bourdais incident. Talk of the white/blend line, or even Bourdais exiting the pit lane, is irrelevant. Bourdais had passed the end of the white/blend line and was racing.

[VkmSpouge]

Ultimately after watching the videos again and again I have to say that I agree with both penalties.
Massa was too optimistic, and I won't condemn him for trying, but it was his fault for sure.

Bourdais was already passed at the moment his car touched Massa's car, sure he was on the inside with a heavier car and on cold tires, thus with less agility, but he should have taken more care given these conditions.

I agree Massa and Bourdais are mostly to blame for those incidents but they would have had to come to a complete stop to avoid collision or to have slowed much earlier into the corner when they were still fully entitled to fight for the line. The driver on the outside probably should have given them a little more space and would still have passed the one on the inside.

[ioan]

Where in the rules does it say that, or anything like it?

Take the sporting regulations, save it on your PC and search through it.


The white/blend line is there for safety reasons certainly but the white line played no part in the Massa/Bourdais incident. Talk of the white/blend line, or even Bourdais exiting the pit lane, is irrelevant. Bourdais had passed the end of the white/blend line and was racing.

So you mean that if a driver exits the pit lane in the same time with another one coming down the straight way faster than him and the faster one tries to turn in it's OK for the exiting one to try to go as fast (with a heavier car, and cold tires) and take the other one out?

What do you think why that white line is sometime going around the first corner too? Just for fun or to make sure that drivers on cold an slippery tires won't try to race those on top of their game?

We can go on arguing as long as we want, but what happened in Turn 1 wasn't Massa's fault at all, he went on the outside and left Bourdais more than enough place.

[ioan]

I know about the white line, and Bourdais didn't cross it. The incident happened at the first corner, on the racetrack, so in my view Bourdais had the right to hold his line and make Massa go around the outside. As to whose fault the contact was.. I don't know. The penalty seems harsh though

The penalty was harsh, but that is life, they both made mistakes today and paid for them. I say the stewards were even handed today. Maybe harsh, but not biased at all.

[Dave B]

Both McLaren's hit Raikkonen's car:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71352

Since giving that quote, Ferrari and Raikkonen have changed their opinion.

Their official press release says:
"His car was not quite right after the collision with a McLaren at the first corner" (Stefano Domenicali)

and:
"the car was not quite right as I was hit by one of the McLarens" (Kimi Raikkonen)

I've watched the replay so many times and I can't see where Lewis was supposed to have hit Kimi.

[christophulus]

Since giving that quote, Ferrari and Raikkonen have changed their opinion.

Their official press release says:
"His car was not quite right after the collision with a McLaren at the first corner" (Stefano Domenicali)

and:
"the car was not quite right as I was hit by one of the McLarens" (Kimi Raikkonen)

I've watched the replay so many times and I can't see where Lewis was supposed to have hit Kimi.

Heh, maybe Kimi's been browsing the forums all day and thought he should get his facts straight? :p

But no, I couldn't see any contact between Hamilton and Raikkonen, I even went back and watched the start in slow-motion.

[Turkeyneck]

Don't the lights at the end of the pit lane flash blue to warn people exiting there is a car approaching down the straight?

I still don't think SB did any thing wrong though & messa should have waited for an easier chance to pass.

[ioan]

Since giving that quote, Ferrari and Raikkonen have changed their opinion.

Their official press release says:
"His car was not quite right after the collision with a McLaren at the first corner" (Stefano Domenicali)

and:
"the car was not quite right as I was hit by one of the McLarens" (Kimi Raikkonen)

I've watched the replay so many times and I can't see where Lewis was supposed to have hit Kimi.

OK, he clearly made a mistake when he said that both hit him.

[jens]

Everyone wants to talk about three incidents, penalties, unfairness of FIA and no-one wants to cover the rest of the race... and racing.

Well, Räikkönen's highly-praised race pace wasn't quite visible today. I don't know, how much did Turn1 affect his performance, but I do think the lower temperatures today hindered Ferrari's and Toyota's pace a bit. Although I think with a Ferrari it still could have been possible to challenge Alonso more. After qualifying I hoped Toyotas could give some competition to Alonso and Kubica and fight for podium, but today's cooler conditions made the task a bit more difficult for Jarno. So overall I'm quite satisfied with P5.

A shame Sutil retired. He managed to make most out of the chaos in Turn1 and rose into Top10, so it would have been exciting to see, where he could have ended.

Red Bull is a bit thought-provoking . They complain about the engine, but Renault has found giant steps in their performance, showing that engine may not be the that bad at all. On the other hand Toro Rosso with the same chassis has had some clearly better performances recently. It looks like Red Bull has managed to make quite a competitive chassis, but obviously not a top drawer (both STR and RB are losing quite clearly to their engine supplier) plus I'm wondering whether Red Bull Racing hasn't managed to sort out the car as well as Toro Rosso, which seems strange especially as A-team should be in better position in this area. The design team of RB has done a decent job, but what about the level of engineers at the A-team?

And no pitstop blunders by Honda and their new lights system. :p :

[christophulus]

Unfortunately I can't comment on the start much because ITV kept going on about the incidents! I did hear that Button had got "upto around 10th place" but it appears that he didn't stay there, and that was pretty much it commentary-wise..

Once again Raikkonen seemed to be asleep until he was coming in to pit for the second time, and well done to Kubica for keeping him behind. I really can't figure out what's wrong with Raikkonen, all we know now is that he won't be #1 next year.

Red Bull and Honda appear to have given up on this year and are looking forward to 2009, but Honda said that in 2008 and it didn't exactly help them a lot! I can't see Alonso leaving Renault now they've made a massive improvement, and he seems happy there, so I suppose Honda are stuck with Button + Barrichello again?

Finally - green stripes on the tyres? What a rubbish idea! I couldn't tell the difference between hard and soft tires. Thank goodness they're gone next year :)

[donKey jote]

Apparently most of the improvements on the R28 come from tinkering with the front and rear suspension, plus a bit from the new front wing, plus some new frog oils giving the engine 5-6 more donkeys. :)

[alfa155btcc]

So glad Hamilton, did not get in the points, shame Massa could not have got more.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[ShiftingGears]

Where in the rules does it say that, or anything like it?


They don't, ioan just invented it.

[truefan72]

Yes, I certainly am a hypocrite. I am going to put you on my ignore list now.

join the club :up:

[F1boat]

The penalty was harsh, but that is life, they both made mistakes today and paid for them. I say the stewards were even handed today. Maybe harsh, but not biased at all.

I agree. To Macca fans the only way in which FIA will be unbiased will be to allow McLaren to cheat and steal and Hamilton to overtake people using shortcuts - because he is a pure racers and mcLaren and pure racing team.
Appaling.

[truefan72]

I've added some images illuastratinog your point quite well


Four contraversial incidents to comment on:

Hamilton / Raikkonen / Kovalainen at the start

I've watched the start many times now and it's clear that while Lewis made an absolute hash of things, forcing Kimi to drive towards the very edge of the track, Hamilton was a clear 2 or 3 meters ahead when Kovy pushed Kimi off.

There's no excuse for the boneheaded start Hamilton made, but it was the wrong McLaren which got the blame for Kimi leaving the track.

Even so, how many times at the start of pretty much every race do we see people pushed wide - especially down the order? And yet this is the first time I can remember a driver being penalised for it.

and more evidence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5KReYtyew
:20 krk and LH eqaul
:22 hamilton ahead kimi could have braked
:24 LH well clear of kimi, kimi could have braked, but kovy was there
:25 Haliton well haead of kimi, kvy pushing Kimi off track
(notice massa, who took the same line as kimi but decided to break )


Massa / Hamilton

Pretty clear-cut, this one. Massa made an optimistic dive down the inside, cutting the chicane with all four wheels. This alone mandates a penalty under the new post-Spa rules, never mind the fact that he also went on to cause an avoidable collision.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01008/felipe_massa_1008273c.jpg



Massa / Bordais

I can't believe Sebastien is the one suffering over this when he clearly was the victim of Massa shutting the door on him. I hope Toro Rosso are to appeal but I doubt they'll get very far as we now now that 25-second penalties can't be appealed :rolleyes:
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117176


Massa / Webber

Not so black and white this time. Massa clearly had all four wheels off the circuit, but you could argue that it was a fair move as Webber had moved over to defend his position.



So four incidents, three of them involving Massa.

yeah, decided to watch the start of the race again after you mentioned that and clear as day, it was kovy who if anyone, pushed kimi off track.

of course the stewards got it wrong and decided to punish hamilton for nothing

[gloomyDAY]

Damn, what a race!

No SC cars, no fluff, just straight hard racing.
The stewards got all the right calls and ZERO controversy.

What happened on the track stays on the track.
Time to dust our hands of this race and move onto China.I shouldn't have posted this until I found out about the investigation between Massa and Bourdais. What a stupid penalty! Every call was spot on during the race and then the fraud train comes tootin' its horn around the corner, again.

Maybe STR should develop vertical lift kits to avoid any further incidents, right?

[ArrowsFA1]

Take the sporting regulations, save it on your PC and search through it.
ioan, you're the one saying this rule, or that rule, exists and you say you back things up so...back up your claims with the relevant FIA rules.

So you mean that if a driver exits the pit lane in the same time with another one coming down the straight way faster than him and the faster one tries to turn in it's OK for the exiting one to try to go as fast (with a heavier car, and cold tires) and take the other one out?
No. That is not what I am saying, or have said at any point.

The driver exiting the pit must remain within the white blend line. He cannot cross that line. That's all. Of course he should be aware, as Bourdais was, of approaching cars, but he his fully within his rights to race.