Ford to pull out of WRC?

[wwbroe]

On German site rallye-magazine.de they are saying that Ford is concidering to pull out of the WRC if the FIA don't make quick decision about future reglementations. Tomorrow there will be meeting of FIA to decide what they want, then they will propose it to manufacturers, then two weeks later they will meet again with information they recieved, and then om 5th of november the world council board would decide the definitive future regulations.
The head of Ford Motorsport (Mr. Marc Deans) is saying that they will pull out if FIA by that time doesn't make a final decision. He also says that it is better to do nothing at all then to invest millions in something what might be useless in the near future. :)

[Livewireshock]

Sabre rattling at it's best! It was a predictable move by Ford brought on by the current uncertainty.

[AndyRAC]

Well they keep threatening, just do it!!

[Daniel]

good stuff! :)

[MJW]

Excuse me guys but have you just checked out the news sites and the financial sector? - The worlds is in a bit of bother finacially right now, even that great building site called Dubai has had to be helped by next door Abu Dhabi. Most of the car manufacturers are facing BIG financial losses, and as DR said in that interview in autosport.com the wrc should offer value for money for the motor industry. We saw a superb display from Citroen and Sebastien on the weekend, but unless you are a techno guy amazed at how the Citroen defys the laws of physics and what an absolute masterpiece it is in engineering terms it was frankly BORING to watch. The TV does not convey the speed, a single car on a twisty road doesnt make good tv. TV needs the spectacle of too much power for too little grip, prescisely the opposite of what we have now. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see Citroen, Ford, Subaru and Suzuki walk away from this techonolgically extravagant non spectacular tytpe of WRC we have now evolved into, especially in light of banks collapsing, restrictions on finance for new car sales etc.

[shaitan]

do not blame regulation that just because your favor thing has been a loser!

same thing for me if loeb keep winning.

someone do not be in top is not rules fail go home check himself.

[koko0703]

I'm not surprized if Ford pulls out of WRC because what they are saying is very true. I have been saying WRC needs stability in regulations so the car manufacturers can invest on the participation in WRC. Right now there is no stability and no point to invest as Ford guys are saying. It's sad that FIA is doing nothing to help WRC but maybe they'll realized how big WRC really was once they lose major participants. WRC needs serious re-building anyways, so why not start from scratch???

[AndyRAC]

Honestly, something drastic needs to happen.

12 rounds, including 'classic' events, different events 2-3-4-5 days depending on organisers. Cheap, but exciting cars.

In what other sport do they drop their most famous event? Imagine no Masters at Augusta, no Wimbledon, no Monaco GP......

...It just wouldn't happen.

[bluuford]

I hope they all pull out at the end of season :-) that would be awsome.. only privateers:-)

[Daniel]

If crap is awesome then yes that would be awesome!

[Leon]

I hope they all pull out at the end of season :-) that would be awsome.. only privateers:-)

I agree

[mdesign]

I hope they all pull out at the end of season :-) that would be awsome.. only privateers:-)
In that case, where would the money came from? A WRC without the manufactures would not attract any investment at all. WRC takes money to organise you know... i can't see that as awsome

[Daniel]

Some people want it to go back to the stone age mdesign and to a point they are right but you can't have a good world championship without manufacturers

[cut the b.s.]

Bring back the Mark 2s, any car you can't build in a barn, and fix with a lump hammer and cable ties has no place in any rally :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :hot:

[Helstar]

Some people want it to go back to the stone age mdesign and to a point they are right but you can't have a good world championship without manufacturers
Sometimes you need to level an entire city and built it from scratch (hopefully, it will be better than before).

[Daniel]

Sometimes you need to level an entire city and built it from scratch (hopefully, it will be better than before).
I agree. But these people are talking about levelling the city and then living permanently in tin shacks afterwards forever. I say level the city but return it to the days when there was a healthy level of manufacturer involvement and all will be good.

If I want to go and see privateers I'll go to a local rally :) But I don't want to travel all the way to Finland to find that it's just guys with a lot of money pissing about on the world stage and no one with any great level of skill. Bear in mind if it went back to privateer days it wouldn't be just Loeb who would go but Mikko, Latvala, Petter, Gigi........ we might still have the ice cream guy though....

[Langdale Forest]

Ford threatend to pull out of the WRC at the end of 2004.

This has probably been the most unintresting WRC season ever, only 4 manufacures, 2 capable of winning and the new cars from Suzuki and Subaru not doing very well.

To loose ford would be a real shock, with the Stobart team probably going as well. :(

[AndyRAC]

Ford threatend to pull out of the WRC at the end of 2004.

This has probably been the most unintresting WRC season ever, only 4 manufacures, 2 capable of winning and the new cars from Suzuki and Subaru not doing very well.

To loose ford would be a real shock, with the Stobart team probably going as well. :(

It would be a shock, but maybe it's what the sport needs, which sounds bizarre. Really, drastic action is needed - then maybe, the F1A/ISC/Promoter will get off their backsides and do something.
Having a clearout yesterday I came across some issues of Rallysport magazine from 1999-2000, funnily enough similar issues were being discussed then, especially the promotion/TV problem. A few people back then warned against forgeting the history and heritage of the sport in the rush to make it modern and TV friendly. And what has happened???

Remember what happened to the Milles Pistes suggestions???

[BDunnell]

I agree. But these people are talking about levelling the city and then living permanently in tin shacks afterwards forever. I say level the city but return it to the days when there was a healthy level of manufacturer involvement and all will be good.

If I want to go and see privateers I'll go to a local rally :) But I don't want to travel all the way to Finland to find that it's just guys with a lot of money pissing about on the world stage and no one with any great level of skill. Bear in mind if it went back to privateer days it wouldn't be just Loeb who would go but Mikko, Latvala, Petter, Gigi........ we might still have the ice cream guy though....

Not necessarily, for it would be possible for well-funded non-works teams to employ good drivers, just as is the case in other forms of motorsport. Non-works does not necessarily = rich amateur. The problem, of course, would be finding the funding. I suppose some of those drivers would just have to take a pay cut, or pay for a drive, to stay in work. What other options would there be for them? They couldn't all go off to compete in touring cars or sportscars.

Now is definitely the time, therefore, to decide on a big shake-up of the technical regulations, to cut costs and do it fast.

[AndyRAC]

Not necessarily, for it would be possible for well-funded non-works teams to employ good drivers, just as is the case in other forms of motorsport. Non-works does not necessarily = rich amateur. The problem, of course, would be finding the funding. I suppose some of those drivers would just have to take a pay cut, or pay for a drive, to stay in work. What other options would there be for them? They couldn't all go off to compete in touring cars or sportscars.

Now is definitely the time, therefore, to decide on a big shake-up of the technical regulations, to cut costs and do it fast.

But is S2000/S2000+ really the big shake up? Not from were I'm standing - in fact the proposed regs will eventually end up just like current WRCars. Not good enough - Production based cars is the way to go for now - it might sound boring, but if enough Manufacturers come on board - you never know. Add good and distinct events - all different - we may get somewere. Sort the sporting side first - then the promotion et al can follow. I think.........

[bluuford]

In that case, where would the money came from? A WRC without the manufactures would not attract any investment at all. WRC takes money to organise you know... i can't see that as awsome

You know.. when there is a depression in economy, then it is actually good thing for the economy, because it makes the so called redistribution faster. When you have workers to do some work and they are maybe your friends as well then it is really hard to tell them that "you are fired." Somehow you still can make it and keep their salary. But it is economically very noneffective. When you have to make a decision "do I keep my income and fire 20 workers and try to do all things more effectively?" You don't need to think twice.

I think that WRC need complete shakeup at the moment. We need to get rid of the current top manufacturers like Ford and Citroen's. It is really hard to change the current rules because each of those two teams have something like hundred workers and thirty WRC cars that will be almost as cheap as group N cars when they are not allowed to use any more. When they are "eliminated" from the sport, then it will be much cheaper and easier for new manufacturers to join. Also privateers and private team with variable sponsors are more interested in it, because then the competition will be more fierce (all teams with lower budget and therefore with more equal level) and therefore marketing possibilities much easier.

Currently you get quite huge sum of money from couple of manufacturers during the season to run WRC. But how easily you can sell such an "interesting" action like we saw in Spain? You dont need to answer.

If we have more teams and they pay less money as a registration fee but we have good show (lets say 5,6,7 drivers are fighting for the win) then we can earn this missing money from marketing. And it is much easier to attract good marketing gurus. I know why it is so hard to find global promoter. If I am marketing guru then I cannot find the way how to make it interesting to show one genius winning it all 5 years in a row.. and to make it attractive for audience:-)

When still such kind of genius has developed (like Loeb) then there is a solution. When WRC is much cheaper then it is much easier to find second(Ogier), third(Hänninen), fourth(Aava) and fifth(Meeke) same kind of genius and to make them fight for the win.
I am scientist in everyday life and sometimes like statistics. So, when there are 10 drivers each year who can afford it to join WRC then the possibility to find another genius is 10 times smaller compared to the situation when 100 drivers can afford to join wrc every year.
What I want to say is that Loeb is not the only genius out there.. probably.. If more people can afford to join wrc then maybe we can find more such kind of geniuses. Better try to find another geniuses than try to make the current ones life harder.

Get the point?

[Daniel]

You know.. when there is a depression in economy, then it is actually good thing for the economy, because it makes the so called redistribution faster. When you have workers to do some work and they are maybe your friends as well then it is really hard to tell them that "you are fired." Somehow you still can make it and keep their salary. But it is economically very noneffective. When you have to make a decision "do I keep my income and fire 20 workers and try to do all things more effectively?" You don't need to think twice.

I think that WRC need complete shakeup at the moment. We need to get rid of the current top manufacturers like Ford and Citroen's. It is really hard to change the current rules because each of those two teams have something like hundred workers and thirty WRC cars that will be almost as cheap as group N cars when they are not allowed to use any more. When they are "eliminated" from the sport, then it will be much cheaper and easier for new manufacturers to join. Also privateers and private team with variable sponsors are more interested in it, because then the competition will be more fierce (all teams with lower budget and therefore with more equal level) and therefore marketing possibilities much easier.

Currently you get quite huge sum of money from couple of manufacturers during the season to run WRC. But how easily you can sell such an "interesting" action like we saw in Spain? You dont need to answer.

If we have more teams and they pay less money as a registration fee but we have good show (lets say 5,6,7 drivers are fighting for the win) then we can earn this missing money from marketing. And it is much easier to attract good marketing gurus. I know why it is so hard to find global promoter. If I am marketing guru then I cannot find the way how to make it interesting to show one genius winning it all 5 years in a row.. and to make it attractive for audience:-)

When still such kind of genius has developed (like Loeb) then there is a solution. When WRC is much cheaper then it is much easier to find second(Ogier), third(Hänninen), fourth(Aava) and fifth(Meeke) same kind of genius and to make them fight for the win.
I am scientist in everyday life and sometimes like statistics. So, when there are 10 drivers each year who can afford it to join WRC then the possibility to find another genius is 10 times smaller compared to the situation when 100 drivers can afford to join wrc every year.
What I want to say is that Loeb is not the only genius out there.. probably.. If more people can afford to join wrc then maybe we can find more such kind of geniuses. Better try to find another geniuses than try to make the current ones life harder.

Get the point?
You don't seem to get how the WRC works at all.........

[AndyRAC]

You don't seem to get how the WRC works at all.........

And neither do the people who 'run' it..........he he!!

[bluuford]

Actually I think I know it and I just tried to simplify my thoughts.. and I think that the current way how the full WRC system works is way too complicated. So, I just gave my basic idea and what is wrong from the roots (Ok admit that I didn't talk about technical regulations). I have read all the rules and regulations like you and I like to see my favorite sport more popular like you.. probably.

[ShiftingGears]

It's amazing how incompetent the FIA is.

The WRC cars need more power over grip, if they want spectacle. Not cars farting around on a go kart track in a stadium.

[cosmicpanda]

I can't wait for the day when Subaru and Suzuki are winning events and everyone complains because Ford and Citroen aren't there to show them what real speed is.

[jonkka]

I am scientist in everyday life and sometimes like statistics. So, when there are 10 drivers each year who can afford it to join WRC then the possibility to find another genius is 10 times smaller compared to the situation when 100 drivers can afford to join wrc every year.

Huh? Are you familiar with term "equal distribution"? If the good drivers were equally distributed amongst the 10 or the 100 drivers in all, then your claim would be true. But since better drivers are naturally at the forefront, the distribution is not equal but concentrated (more likely you'll find the better drivers at the front than at random position), hence probability change is not linear.

Add to this that the scoop with which teams can pick up new recruits is very limited, it doesn't matter if there is one or a hundred new stars born annually as only very few can proceed to the works seats.

Practical science. Compare this to a fish pond, if you got only one fishing rod and handful of fish fodder, the number of the fish in the pond doesn't very much affect your chances of catching a fish. You throw in the fodder, fish come and you reel in one. How many are left uncatched is academic.

[Donney]

To my mind I need cars I can understand, not that I don't get how the idea of going fast between point A and point B is working right now, but bear with me on this:

From a spectator point of view I need:

- An engine producing the right amount of noise for me to exactly know when the driver is accelerating hard or shifting gears. Which the silent WRC don't really do.

- A suspension showing me when the car is braking and accelerating and even when the car is fighting against lateral forces. I know it means going backwards in technology but nowadays cars are as flat as pancakes.

- Tires, control or whichever you want to call them, which cannot deal with the power produced by the engine, whether it is 300 Hp or 500 I don't mind as long I get to see the cars giving a great show.


And all together means we really get to appreciate the skills the drivers have which, frankly, it is impossible nowadays. When you see on board shots it seems they are on a Sunday drive, which of course is far from true, but they don't fight the steering wheel, they don't move their hands to change gears and slightly move their right arm to handbrake.

If you want a good TV show all that should help.


And back to topic, Ford have been threatening for so long that I have the feeling they are only waiting for an excuse to leave, not that they need one or better said they don't have plenty, given the current situation, but it hardly causes any alarm right now does it?

[Daniel]

That'll never happen Donney! Far too sensible an idea.

[AndyRAC]

To my mind I need cars I can understand, not that I don't get how the idea of going fast between point A and point B is working right now, but bear with me on this:

From a spectator point of view I need:

- An engine producing the right amount of noise for me to exactly know when the driver is accelerating hard or shifting gears. Which the silent WRC don't really do.

- A suspension showing me when the car is braking and accelerating and even when the car is fighting against lateral forces. I know it means going backwards in technology but nowadays cars are as flat as pancakes.

- Tires, control or whichever you want to call them, which cannot deal with the power produced by the engine, whether it is 300 Hp or 500 I don't mind as long I get to see the cars giving a great show.


And all together means we really get to appreciate the skills the drivers have which, frankly, it is impossible nowadays. When you see on board shots it seems they are on a Sunday drive, which of course is far from true, but they don't fight the steering wheel, they don't move their hands to change gears and slightly move their right arm to handbrake.

If you want a good TV show all that should help.


And back to topic, Ford have been threatening for so long that I have the feeling they are only waiting for an excuse to leave, not that they need one or better said they don't have plenty, given the current situation, but it hardly causes any alarm right now does it?

Good post, but it won't happen. And more's the pity - but as you say - it's a 'backwards' step - and the Manufacturers won't like that.

[Daniel]

I don't agree andy. The manufacturers just want something that's value for money. Low tech but fast and spectacular is value for money. Go back to group a levels of technology and place certain limits on suspension, drivetrain technology and the materials available to build the car with and you'll have a series which looks good and attracts manufacturers. Bring back proper tyre rules as well. The WRCar idea was great until Peugeot and Citroen came along and raised the game so much that it killed the show. Citroen are my favourite team but part of me despises them for coming in and bankrolling the championship. The measures above will go some way to stopping a manufacturer doing this. But the rules would have to be constantly changing to kill off little innovations in technology as they start to hurt the show.

[AndyRAC]

I agree about value for money, and I too want something simple and spectacular, but I'm slightly confused by comments by some people including Dave Lapworth - stating that technology is important and that they've spent millions developing it and don't want to lose their investment.

[Donney]

Use it on everyday road cars and leaving racing gizmo-free, I say!

[Daniel]

I think the championship needs a period without manufacturers so someone can think up a proper set of rules without people like Lapworth sticking their nose in and ruining things. If I was Lapworth I'd jump at any opportunity for change as it gives then an opportunity to get back near the front.

[Leon]

If finally ford pulls out where do you think Hirvo and Latvala will end up?

[witto6]

Job Centre!!!!!

[Woodeye]

I would be really suprised if Ford would continue longer than for 2-3 years. Just in case that if you don't know it, they consider rallying being somekind of a business. At the moment Ford is doing really poor in every single market where they operate and things like rallying are going to be the first places where they will do cuts if necessary. And with the current state of the economy, we might see some dramatic things happening in the near future. :(

[cosmicpanda]

The thing about tyres not being able to handle the engine power is that the teams don't like it, and nor do the drivers. Remember the complaining from on top of El Condor this year?

[AndyRAC]

A few stories:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71209

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71210

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7657298.stm

Shows were priorities lie, as ever.

[koko0703]

I believe manufacturers are not necessarily looking for a cheaper bill but what they want is a value for what they have invested in, and that means you don't necessarily have to throw away all the new technology. Motorsports serves as a place for manufacuters to showcase their technology, too, and cutting too much technology will make the series less attrative even if it's cheaper. So I don't necessarily agree on "simplifying" the format.

Yes, the new technology costs you lots of money but if the investment actually worth something, the manufacturers will be interested. A good example is the introduction of diesel to Le Mans series. Formula One is now trying KERS. WRC needs something to present manufacturers some challenge, so the manufacturers can showcase how good they are.