Helio's been a bad boy!

[Alexamateo]

http://www.miamiherald.com/625/story/710736.html

Don't mess with the IRS :blackeye:

[Rex Monaco]

TMZ has learned that Helio Castroneves has been indicted for allegedly not paying taxes on more than $5 millions. Castroneves was indicted today in Miami. The charges -- Conspiracy to Defraud the U.S. and Tax Evasion.

According to the indictment, Helio and two others are accused of using "an offshore Panamanian shell corporation Seven Promotions to conceal and disguise the true and correct amount of Helio Castroneves' income from the Internal Revenue Service."

http://www.tmz.com/2008/10/02/indycar-driver-dancing-champ-indicted/

[DirtDevil5]

Dancing with the inmates...

[Jonesi]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/news/story?id=3622661

[MSG1]

It will be interesting to see how this sits with Roger Penske and his sponsors. I suspect this news isn't going over too well. Penske is very much about image and this isn't necessarily the right image to project to the public.

[The instant classic]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH that was funny

[SoCalPVguy]

Al Capone was never convicted of any crime.... except Tax Evasion (he died in prison) I'm just sayin' ...

[Jag_Warrior]

I always thought his sister, Katiucia, was kind of cute. When she gets to Federal prison, I wonder if she'd like to be my jailhouse pen-pal? :dozey:

I think Wesley Snipes got 3 years of Club Fed time. From the surface, it seems like Helio won't be able to plead ignorant (as Snipes did). Getting fired by Penske might be the least of his worries.

[RusH]

but,,,,,,but....he only evaded taxes during the CART years right???

lol

[Placid]

I always thought his sister, Katiucia, was kind of cute. When she gets to Federal prison, I wonder if she'd like to be my jailhouse pen-pal? :dozey:

I think Wesley Snipes got 3 years of Club Fed time. From the surface, it seems like Helio won't be able to plead ignorant (as Snipes did). Getting fired by Penske might be the least of his worries.

Exactly!!!!! I wonder if he owes Brazilian taxes?

[Cart750hp]

ABC News just reported that IRS was looking at his 2 Indy500 wins and sponsorships, mainly. A possibility of jail time if convicted. That should put one top seat available. Where's PT?

[MDS]

Helio Castroneves has been charged with one count of fraud and six counts of tax evasion by the feds for setting up what's essentially a web of shell company that kicked money back to Castroneves family so that Helio didn't have to pay taxes.

This IRS has been going after celeberty tax evaders recently, and while this could take a year or so to work out the feds don't bring cases unless they have overwhelming evidence. I haven't found the time to read the indictment yet, but based on the Fed's track record I fully expect Helio to do jail time over this, or reach some sort of plea deal on their terms.

So the question I have, yes he's guilty until proven innocent, but at what point does this reach a Michael Vick like toxicity. You have the second most recognizable name in the IRL setting up an international scam to defraud the government of taxes, taxes which are much lower than what he would pay in Brazil. At what point should Penske dump Helio?

http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/260536

[Hondo]

Oops.

[Wilf]

Helio Castroneves has been charged with one count of fraud and six counts of tax evasion by the feds for setting up what's essentially a web of shell company that kicked money back to Castroneves family so that Helio didn't have to pay taxes.

This IRS has been going after celeberty tax evaders recently, and while this could take a year or so to work out the feds don't bring cases unless they have overwhelming evidence. I haven't found the time to read the indictment yet, but based on the Fed's track record I fully expect Helio to do jail time over this, or reach some sort of plea deal on their terms.

So the question I have, yes he's guilty until proven innocent, but at what point does this reach a Michael Vick like toxicity. You have the second most recognizable name in the IRL setting up an international scam to defraud the government of taxes, taxes which are much lower than what he would pay in Brazil. At what point should Penske dump Helio?

http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/260536

Funny how this thread has an entirely different tone than the thread started yesterday. It raises some interesting questions:

When you pay an attorney, an officer of the court, and a business manager, both of whom say you have done nothing wrong, to handle your finances and they advise you how to shelter your income, have you set up an international scam to defraud the government of taxes or are you guilty of listening to bad advice if, and this still has to be decided, the government is determined by a court to be correct?

The feds bring cases as a tactic; it doesn't cost the government anything more to bring case. The people who bring the case are on the payroll. There clearly is a standoff and so this is how the government has decided to make it's point. It costs the defendant a lot to defend themselves which is why many defendants cave before this point. It makes you wonder why a person faced with certain jail, at least according to MDS, would continue to waste money when the outcome is so obvious?

The maximum personal income tax rate in Brazil is 27.5%; the maximum rate in the US between 2000 and 2008 ranged from 39% to 35%. The US rates seem to be significantly higher.

Debating the Internal Revenue Service is significantly different than abusing and killing animals for profit. I can't imagine how the two can lumped into the same thread.

I'm sure that Roger Penske has discussed this issue with Helio and probably advised him one way or another. Charges of evading taxes are significantly different than a conviction and it is doubtful anyone would make an employment decision bases on charges alone.

The real question is: "At what point should this be dumped?"

[indycool]

Just read the Miami Herald and Indianapolis Star stories on it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not a forensic accountant and the mish-mash of foreign companies in foreign countries they're talking about is way past my level of understanding of how it would work, let alone whether it actually happened the way that's alleged or not. Guess I'll just keep readin'.

[BoilerIMS]

Wait for it.... I am merging the two Helio tax threads

[anthonyvop]

As much as I like Helio I have to admit this doesn't look good. The Feds have a very strong case and I fully expect Helio to enter into negotiations for a plea bargain.

[bblocker68]

We know he can climb a fence.

But can he climb OVER one??

Better get some advice from Michael Schofield pretty soon :)

[Alexamateo]

We know he can climb a fence.

But can he climb OVER one??

Better get some advice from Michael Schofield pretty soon :)

I guess we'll see, I don't know what this means about his future with Penske, but I am pretty sure He won't be at Surfer's because he'll have to surrender his passport. These are very serious charges.





http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce22b3127ccec512b00ae03b00000040O00KbOGrZoxYg9 vPgY/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce22b3127ccec512b00ae03b00000040O00KbOGrZoxYg9 vPgY/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Nikki Katz]

While in general I think that people who evade taxes deserve what they get, this was ages ago. Exactly how slow is the IRS?
I don't know the details of this case but with Wesley Snipes he simply didn't file his return 3 years in a row, yet it took them another 5 years to spot this! What if it was a genuine error? Do people not get sent reminders? Also, the prison sentence he got was really long.
If this case is anywhere near as bad then this could end Castroneves' career.

[MDS]

Alex, that picture is the best use of photoshop ever!

But seriously, the feds wait years to bring charges because the internal threshold of evidence prosecutors need to press charges is much higher than local solictors and DAs. As a result they have much, much higher conviction percentage. When feds bring charges they more than likely win their cases. Given Helio's celberty status they are less likely to bring charges for fear of a high profile loss, and less likely to sign onto a weak agreement.

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends his career.

[Rex Monaco]

http://jalopnik.com/5058563/helio-castroneves-indicted-on-tax-evasion-charges-against-more-drivers-to-come

Apparently Michigan attorney Alan Miller has also represented or currently represents such racing stars as Jimmie Johnson, Kyle Busch, Casey Mears, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Jeff Gordon, Ward Burton and Clint Bowyer. There's no evidence that Miller conspired with any other drivers for tax-evasion purposes, but his indictment in connection with Helio Castroneves likely has a number of famous names checking the books with their lawyers and accountants.

[ZzZzZz]

Hard to imagine this is the same Weaselboy we all know and love. Remember all the desperate slimeball moves he tried at the end of this season? Remember... nah, I won't bring that up again. The guy has no integrity.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nice.....kick a man when he is down.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I actually suspect he will get a slap on the wrist. From the sounds of it the lawyer may be the guy who set it all up. A fancy tax dodge with overseas accounts isn't something I would put on Helio. No offense, but he isn't that sophisticated,and unlike Snipes, he isn't running around telling the world he doesn't believe in paying taxes.

Helio is innocent until proven guilty, and if Roger believes he is duped, Roger is going to stand behind him. Most people...and I said most like Helio. I suspect depending on the way this all goes down, that could change but I think when the dust settles he will be penalized financially but avoid jail time...

[ZzZzZz]

I doubt he'll get thirty-five years, but I bet it's more than one year.

Traditionally, the dodgers have gotten more time than their advisors, but that (unfair) practice has reversed in recent years, from what I've seen.

As someone stated, the Feds don't bring these cases unless they expect to win. They also seem to like to make a point with prison time, and more than a token amount. Federal judges don't have much leeway with sentencing, so it really comes down to dealing with the prosecutors/IRS. I assure you, if they want to, they can put him away for the whole 35 years. He'll be happy to pay the principle, fines and penalties and get away with, say, 18 months.

[elis]

Let's measure him up for his arrows suit before anything is even proven. :hmph: :rolleyes:

[ozrevhead]

It will be interesting to see how this sits with Roger Penske and his sponsors. I suspect this news isn't going over too well. Penske is very much about image and this isn't necessarily the right image to project to the public.
Even if Helio gets out of this I dont think Penske sponsors would hang around - throw enough mud and some will tend to stick so to speak

Im guessing that no matter what happens Penske will be hit - how hard we will wait and see

[ozrevhead]

Let's measure him up for his arrows suit before anything is even proven. :hmph: :rolleyes:
Of couse - innocent untill proven guilty

[Wilf]

From the Indianapolis Star 10/4

Ian Comisky, a former assistant U.S. attorney in South Florida and co-author of the law textbook, "Tax Fraud and Evasion," told The Star it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains. He said it's possible the prosecutor wanted "to make a statement."

Regarding the bail, Comisky said, "Ten million is a lot in a tax case. If he's not a (U.S.) citizen, that could be a reason, but it's tough to speculate beyond that."

He may be innocent until proven guilty but that doesn't mean we can't belittle and embarrass him all in the spirit bringing freedom and justice to all.

[Albert D. Kallal]

I’m absolutely stunned how no one here is appalled at the treatment of Helio.

Have things really sunk so far in the USA that they treat people like political dissidents like they do in countries like Russia or China?

For what possible reason would they have to handcuff this person? You mean he was resisting arrest or is going to fight with the police? I cannot believe that no one here finds this treatment disgusting and morally reprehensible?

I’m not sure what’s worse now, the treatment of Helio, or the lack of comments here pointing out how horrible he’s been treated?

Keep in mind if he’s guilty then fine him. If the law says he must go to jail, then he goes to jail. I have a absolutely no problem with the law being applied to him at all.

However what’s with the handcuffs and shackles? This is just absolutely disgusting and morally reprehensible. Has the liberalized and socialist establishment gone so far that they refuse to make any kind of value judgment during the arrest process? So you mean good outstanding citizens don’t get better treatment than someone who’s is a known criminal or threat to society?

Maybe it’s a mistake by Helio’s accountant. Maybe it is blatant breaking of the law by Helio, Whatever the case is, there is NO reason to treat him like this.

Place him in handcuffs? My gosh Helio is a good citizen with a outstanding public record. I’m not stating because he’s a celebrity he should get better treatment, I’m stating that any good citizens without a long criminal record or a person that has absolutely no reason to run away needs to be handcuffed.

Now of course if the man was resisting arrest or was not willing to go down to the police station then we have a different matter. The idea that Helio was not going to cooperate or not head down to the police station is absolutely ridiculous.

My gosh, I am starting to think that the USA is become worse than Russia now! This can’t possibly be the normal treatment down there can it be?

The fact matter is that they pull up every piece of data and information on the person before they start an arrest process (Especially since they have so much information about his taxes).

It is not like they are picking up a random person on some big street party.

I’m absolutely stunned they believed that the use of handcuffs was necessary in this case…

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

[Jag_Warrior]

Helio received the same treatment as anyone else in the same predicament. If one wants to avoid being put in cuffs and shackles, pay your taxes and don't become involved in tax avoidance schemes. The U.S. Marshalls don't play favorites, nor should they.

Castroneves is innocent until proven guilty. But given the financial straits this nation is in, because so many people believe that playing fast and loose with finances is accpetable behavior, I hardly feel sorry for someone who has (allegedly) under reported his income by more than 95% in one instance.

Nothing against Helio. But when my accountant does my taxes, I am responsible for what he files on my behalf. I don't consider celebrities to be any closer to the heart of the law than I am.

[Rex Monaco]

I'm sure that Canada is a nice place to live if you are interseted in evading income taxes. (Althought Paul Tracy calls Las Vegas home, so maybe he knows something that I don't?)

And I'm certain that the treatment of politcal dissidents in China and Russia is much harsher than the use of handcuff's and shackles.

In a large municipality when the accused is tranferred from a jail to a court, they are usually being transferred with other prisoners. And all of them are handcuffed and shackled. To treat anyone special, is to invite a lawsuit from the liberal/socliasts amongst us who demand that everyone be treated equally.

And I'd bet that the wonderful tax haven known as Canada, treats the transfer of it's inmates from jail to the magistrate in the same manner.

[Wilf]

Helio received the same treatment as anyone else in the same predicament. If one wants to avoid being put in cuffs and shackles, pay your taxes and don't become involved in tax avoidance schemes. The U.S. Marshalls don't play favorites, nor should they.



And yet they apparently do play favorites, or dis-favorites; as I posted before a former assistant US attorney said: "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

The prosecutor has overstepped in this instance and treated a person who surrendered himself to authorities as a flight risk or a danger to the court. It would be interesting to hear the prosecutor's reason for the treatment,

[Wilf]

In a large municipality when the accused is tranferred from a jail to a court, they are usually being transferred with other prisoners. And all of them are handcuffed and shackled. To treat anyone special, is to invite a lawsuit from the liberal/socliasts amongst us who demand that everyone be treated equally.

And I'd bet that the wonderful tax haven known as Canada, treats the transfer of it's inmates from jail to the magistrate in the same manner.

And, when they get to the court room do they not normally remove the cuffs, shackles and leg irons? The article said he pled not guilty standing in court in the irons and chains. They didn't even put the a guy who caused his wife's death and now has been convicted of kidnapping in cuffs in court.

Don't get me wrong, if Helio screwed up, let's let him climb a fence and then hang there with just certain parts of his anatomy attached to the fence. But, until the judge says he's guilty, he should be respected.

[Rex Monaco]

And, when they get to the court room do they not normally remove the cuffs, shackles and leg irons? The article said he pled not guilty standing in court in the irons and chains.

My very limited second hand knowledge of the plea stage of a court procedure, is that it does not last very long. It would proabably take longer to uncuff and recuff someone, than it takes to make the plea and set a trial date.


They didn't even put the murderer and now kidnapper OJ in cuffs in court.

OJ Simpson wearing handcuffs in court.
http://celebslam.celebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/oj-simpson-flight-3.jpg

[DBell]

And yet they apparently do play favorites, or dis-favorites; as I posted before a former assistant US attorney said: "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

The prosecutor has overstepped in this instance and treated a person who surrendered himself to authorities as a flight risk or a danger to the court. It would be interesting to hear the prosecutor's reason for the treatment,

Maybe when the person is only a resident of the U.S. and a citizen of another nation, prosecutors are reluctant to give him a choice of turning himself in. Extradition from Brazil is hardly a slam dunk.

[DBell]

Helio received the same treatment as anyone else in the same predicament. If one wants to avoid being put in cuffs and shackles, pay your taxes and don't become involved in tax avoidance schemes. The U.S. Marshalls don't play favorites, nor should they.

Castroneves is innocent until proven guilty. But given the financial straits this nation is in, because so many people believe that playing fast and loose with finances is accpetable behavior, I hardly feel sorry for someone who has (allegedly) under reported his income by more than 95% in one instance.

Nothing against Helio. But when my accountant does my taxes, I am responsible for what he files on my behalf. I don't consider celebrities to be any closer to the heart of the law than I am.

Couldn't have stated my opinion any better than this.

[Cart750hp]

I actually suspect he will get a slap on the wrist. From the sounds of it the lawyer may be the guy who set it all up. A fancy tax dodge with overseas accounts isn't something I would put on Helio. No offense, but he isn't that sophisticated,and unlike Snipes, he isn't running around telling the world he doesn't believe in paying taxes.

Helio is innocent until proven guilty, and if Roger believes he is duped, Roger is going to stand behind him. Most people...and I said most like Helio. I suspect depending on the way this all goes down, that could change but I think when the dust settles he will be penalized financially but avoid jail time...

Nah, they might deport him! Just kidding.

I agree. Could be a slap.

[Jag_Warrior]

And yet they apparently do play favorites, or dis-favorites; as I posted before a former assistant US attorney said: "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

The prosecutor has overstepped in this instance and treated a person who surrendered himself to authorities as a flight risk or a danger to the court. It would be interesting to hear the prosecutor's reason for the treatment,

You're stating your opinions as facts. No one on this board knows the circumstances well enough to say that Helio was being picked on by the U.S. Marshals. My uncle is a retired Marshal with over 20 years of service, and I can say with full confidence that if someone indicates by their behavior or demeanor that they may cause a scene, for their safety and that of the Court, they will be secured as necessary. How much discretion they have, I do not know.

With all due respect, other than people believing that Helio should have been treated with kid gloves, I've yet to hear anything factual which would lead me to believe that he was treated unfairly, or unlike others in similar circumstances.

I'll be speaking with my uncle next week. I'll be sure to ask him what the standard operating procedure is for prisoners in Federal Court.

But with the judge setting bail at $10 million for Helio, $2 million for Kati and $250,000 for Miller, I think the use of cuffs and irons is the last thing that the Castroneves family and his fans need to be concerned about now - this is obviously being taken very seriously by the Court.

[gofastandwynn]

OJ Simpson wearing handcuffs in court.
http://celebslam.celebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/oj-simpson-flight-3.jpg

There is a couple of key differences there. OJ was accused of a violent crime, as well as being in jail before being brought to his hearing, thus the need for transport restraints. Helio turned himself in, was never in jail, was never booked, never left building, so then why put transport restraints on him?

[Chris R]

Look at the guy in NY earlier this year who had been convicted of some financial crime or another and fled after faking a suicide - it cost the gov't a bundle to find him. My guess is that anybody facing jail and significant fines is a flight risk, especially if the person has the means to flee. While those who are familiar with Castroneves might say he would never run - I would imagine most of us were surprised he is in this predicament in the first place.

I would also think the restraints are a little for his own safety - a not so subtle reminder to sit your butt down and pay attention to the proceedings - I would imagine more than one person over the years has had a gun drawn on them for un-necessary courtroom antics that appear to threaten others in the room and probably during proceedings for far less serious crimes.... You never know how anybody will act under a stressful situation like this...

Like someone else said - if you don't want to be cuffed and shackled, don't do the crime.....

[Wilf]

You're stating your opinions as facts.

This is one of my pet peeves; anything anyone posts is their opinion. A fact is backed up by a link or quote from an authority which helped you reach your opinion. In the case at hand, I quoted a former assistant US attorney who said "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

Based on that fact I offered my opinion


My guess is that anybody facing jail and significant fines is a flight risk, especially if the person has the means to flee. While those who are familiar with Castroneves might say he would never run - I would imagine most of us were surprised he is in this predicament in the first place.

When informed of the indictment, he walked in and surrendered; he didn't run away. If hand cuffs are sufficient to transport a person who has been judged responsible for the bloody death of his wife and now convicted of kidnapping why is a possible white collar offender more of a threat to the court?

Jag - not meaning to rant on you but the treatment of Helio really got my goat.

[Rex Monaco]

There is a couple of key differences there. OJ was accused of a violent crime, as well as being in jail before being brought to his hearing, thus the need for transport restraints.

I didn't bring the comparison with OJ to the thread. I was merely responding to the claim that OJ was not in handcuffs while in court. That was not true.



Helio turned himself in, was never in jail, was never booked, never left building, so then why put transport restraints on him?

He showed up to the front door for court and they cuffed him? That doesn't sound right.

He was most likely transported to court from where ever he voluntarily turned himself in. And even if that was 2 doors down from the court, he was "in custody" and he would have had to have been escorted by police officers.

[Rex Monaco]

Helio turned himself in, was never in jail, was never booked, never left building, so then why put transport restraints on him?

And evidently Helio was in jail. It's a good thing he was on Dancing with the Stars, or nobody would be reporting on this.

“Dancing With the Stars” Season 5 winner Helio Castroneves is in custody at the Federal Detention Center in downtown Miami, Florida, Access Hollywood has learned.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/helio-castroneves-in-federal-custody-to-appear-before-judge_article_11525

[Wilf]

Look at the guy in NY earlier this year who had been convicted of some financial crime or another and fled after faking a suicide - it cost the gov't a bundle to find him. My guess is that anybody facing jail and significant fines is a flight risk, especially if the person has the means to flee. While those who are familiar with Castroneves might say he would never run - I would imagine most of us were surprised he is in this predicament in the first place.

But, Helio came to them to surrender; he didn't run away.


I would also think the restraints are a little for his own safety - a not so subtle reminder to sit your butt down and pay attention to the proceedings - I would imagine more than one person over the years has had a gun drawn on them for un-necessary courtroom antics that appear to threaten others in the room and probably during proceedings for far less serious crimes.... You never know how anybody will act under a stressful situation like this...

I'm sure the $10 million dollar stack of money sitting in a bank somewhere will protect them from a violent Helio when he returns to court. Can't you folks see, the cuffs and leg irons were simply there to embarrass and belittle Helio, a person who has not demonstrated any violent behavior or attempt to flee.


Like someone else said - if you don't want to be cuffed and shackled, don't do the crime.....

It an easy thing to say but no one has judged him to having committed the crime; he has only been accused of having done the crime. The difficult thing to do is imagine how you will feel when it happens to you.

[Rex Monaco]

In the case at hand, I quoted a former assistant US attorney who said "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

It's also probably unusual for the white colar suspect to be a foreign national from a country that does not cooperate in extraditing fugitive criminals back to the USA.

They thought he was a flight risk. And I can see why.

[Rex Monaco]

Can't you folks see, the cuffs and leg irons were simply there to embarrass and belittle Helio, a person who has not demonstrated any violent behavior or attempt to flee.

I don't see that at all. I see them treating him like every other criminal who was being held in detention and then transfered to court.

And since I can't find any pictures of Helio handcuffed, I don't see how this alledged effort to purposely embarrass Helio was a well strategized conspiracy.

But if they did it to send a message, I don't think it was to embarrass Helio. It was to scare other drivers. I hope they get the message.

[Jag_Warrior]

This is one of my pet peeves; anything anyone posts is their opinion. A fact is backed up by a link or quote from an authority which helped you reach your opinion. In the case at hand, I quoted a former assistant US attorney who said "it's unusual in white collar cases for the defendant to appear in court in handcuffs and leg chains."

Based on that fact I offered my opinion

And that's fine that you based your opinion on the opinion of someone in a position of authority. My uncle is a retired Deputy U.S. Marshall and his girlfriend is a Magistrate. As I mentioned earlier, once I speak to him, I'll get his opinion on how these cases are typically handled.

But here's the statement that I was referencing:

Originally Posted by Wilf http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=541335#post541335)
The prosecutor has overstepped in this instance...




When informed of the indictment, he walked in and surrendered; he didn't run away. If hand cuffs are sufficient to transport a person who has been judged responsible for the bloody death of his wife and now convicted of kidnapping why is a possible white collar offender more of a threat to the court?

As far as I know, Helio was charged with and indicted on multiple felonies. Maybe that has something to do with the policies and procedures vs. someone charged with misdemeanors. I don't know. But I do know that violent offenders often have cuffs, shackles, groin chains and shock belts attached to them. Many moons ago, I was bothered by Michael Milken being shown in cuffs as he was led into court (yeah, I was young and impressionable, and greatly admired his brilliant mind... then!).



Jag - not meaning to rant on you but the treatment of Helio really got my goat.

No problem. I don't have a dog in this fight either way it goes. But considering that Helio could be looking at the end of his days as a driver in ANY major auto racing series, as well as serious prison time, I just think that there are bigger issues that need to be focused on.

[Wilf]

It's also probably unusual for the white colar suspect to be a foreign national from a country that does not cooperate in extraditing fugitive criminals back to the USA.

They thought he was a flight risk. And I can see why.

The flight risk we are talking about walked into the court house and surrendered to them. That would seem to indicate the risk of flight was greatly deminished. If it is procedure to put cuffs on anyone in custody, put cuffs on him. Leg irons are over the top.

[Wilf]

But if they did it to send a message, I don't think it was to embarrass Helio. It was to scare other drivers. I hope they get the message.

Would you agree to wear cuffs and leg irons if the government knocked on your door and said they wanted to send a message to your neighbors. At this point you are equally guilty with Helio, at least in the eyes of the law.

[Easy Drifter]

To change the topic slightly.
Helio, if found guilty on all charges and no deal is cut could face 35 years.
In Canada 1st degree murder can result in a life sentence which actually is a maximum of 25 years, not really life. Even then there is a 'faint hope' parole clause.
So in Canada 1st degree murder is less than tax evasion in the US.
Something is scewered here. I am not saying which way.
By the way Conrad Black (Lord Black of Cross Harbour) was not brought into court cuffed and shackled on charges involving many more dollars.
He could have stayed in the UK or Canada and although both countries have extradition agreements with the US, charges would have to proven in either country before extradition would take place. He surrendered, as did Helio, voluntarily.
US 'bounty hunters' have been arrested and charged in Canada.
The US has the attitude that their laws are surpreme over all countries but it does not work that way. They can get their fingers slapped too.
If Helio is guilty so be it. But this treatment at this stage does seeem harsh.
My next door neighbor, who is a cop, just shook his head and couldn't believe the treatment in what is a civil case.

[MDS]

My next door neighbor, who is a cop, just shook his head and couldn't believe the treatment in what is a civil case.

Running a fraud is not a civil case in this country. We also have a party that is dedicated to re-election through class warfare, so when some rich celeb flaunts the laws that we all have to follow, it doesn't play well with most of the country.

I live on less than 1 percent of what Helio earns in a year, yet, I manage to pay all of my income taxes. I'm sorry, but he feels a bit degraded by wearing handcuffs to a federal criminal proceeding it's just too damn bad. I don't really believe anyone held a gun to his head and forced him to set up a series of oversea shell companies and Swiss bank accounts.

[Easy Drifter]

Nice to see you have found him guilty already.
Moving money to offshore companies is a very grey area anywhere.
The IRS may be right or the courts and/or jury may decide otherwise. He has been charged, not convicted.
Yes he is charged with a felony under US law but I feel most people would consider it less serious than murder or manslaughter or even armed robbery.

[Rex Monaco]

Would you agree to wear cuffs and leg irons if the government knocked on your door and said they wanted to send a message to your neighbors. At this point you are equally guilty with Helio, at least in the eyes of the law.

If the federal government knocked on my door and told me that I had been indicted for felony tax evasion and they were there to take me into custody, I don't think it would matter if I agreed or not.

I'd be placed into cuffs and hauled off to a Federal detention center. And there I'd likely stay because I certainly can't afford $10million in bail.

I'm not sure why you think Helio should be treated any different than Joe Q. Public.

[Rex Monaco]

The flight risk we are talking about walked into the court house and surrendered to them.


It appears that he was being held in custody at a Federal detention center in Miami. It's not the job of Federal marshalls to look through the case docket to determine which 'suspects' deserve special treatment while being transfered from the detention center to the courthouse. Nor should they jeopordize their safety and/or the safety of others, by treating anyone special.

Besides, they probably learned later that he is 'alledgedly' famous. To them he was probably just another latino being held at the Miami Federal detention center.

[Rex Monaco]

The US has the attitude that their laws are surpreme over all countries but it does not work that way.

Helio is a Brazilian who voluntarily chose to live under US law. If he didn't want to adhere to our laws in the US, then he should have moved to Canada where evidently he could have killed the agent investigaing this case and faced less time in jail.

[Rex Monaco]

Yes he is charged with a felony under US law but I feel most people would consider it less serious than murder or manslaughter or even armed robbery.

Which is why if convicted, he won't be facing life in prison or execution.

[Wilf]

If the federal government knocked on my door and told me that I had been indicted for felony tax evasion and they were there to take me into custody, I don't think it would matter if I agreed or not.

I'd be placed into cuffs and hauled off to a Federal detention center. And there I'd likely stay because I certainly can't afford $10million in bail.

I'm not sure why you think Helio should be treated any different than Joe Q. Public.

I agree, you would be placed in cuffs. The question is would you feel it is ok to also be put in legs irons and then paraded around your neighborhood to scare your neighbors so they don't do anything which might lead them to be accused of committing a crime.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Helio is found guilty I would not object to any penalty and sentence they give him. That is when they can make an example of him, not before his conviction.

[Rex Monaco]

To change the topic slightly.
Helio, if found guilty on all charges and no deal is cut could face 35 years.
In Canada 1st degree murder can result in a life sentence which actually is a maximum of 25 years, not really life. Even then there is a 'faint hope' parole clause.
So in Canada 1st degree murder is less than tax evasion in the US.
Something is scewered here. I am not saying which way.

If life is cut to 25 in Canada, then when do you think you would get paroled if sentenced to 35?

Yes, the US paroles people too. Canada didn't invent it and they aren't the only nation to use it.

[Rex Monaco]

I agree, you would be placed in cuffs. The question is would you feel it is ok to also be put in legs irons and then paraded around your neighborhood to scare your neighbors so they don't do anything which might lead them to be accused of committing a crime.

If Federal agents took me into custody, handcuffed and shackeled me and then paraded me around my neighborhood, I'd have a pretty good civil rights case against them.

But that wasn't your original question and that's not what happened to Helio.

Show me a picture or a video of Helio in handcuffs and shackles. I can't find one on the internet. It's hard to embarass someone, if no one takes notice.

[garyshell]

They thought he was a flight risk. And I can see why.

If they thought he was such a flight risk why, pray tell, was racing in Atlanta this weekend? They allowed him to walk out of the court room. So tell me again how much of a "flight risk" he was. Were they afraid that without handcuffs and shackles he was going to run out of the court room? Give me a break, this was a show of force, no more, no less.

By any chance is this particular prosecutor running for elective office in November???

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

Rex: It appears you are yet another one who has already found him guilty. Let the courts decide not you.
You might, if you read my posts properly, have noticed that I did not infer Canada's laws were right and the US wrong.
I had stayed clear of that but since you have decided to attack my position on law I will state I think a way too many of Canada's laws and sentences
are far too weak.
We do not have a justice system anymore. We have a legal system. There is a difference.
The laws on movement of money to offshore companies is complex and often very grey. The IRS does take a hard line but sometimes they are wrong, especially when dealing with foreign nationals, and they can lose in court.
If you were to be picked for jury duty in this case and I was a defence attorney I would challenge you and win!

[Rex Monaco]

They allowed him to walk out of the court room.

I guess you could say he was allowed to walk out of the court room.

But only after posting $10million in bail and surrendering his passport. That sounds like the court clipped his wings to me!

[Rex Monaco]

Rex: It appears you are yet another one who has already found him guilty. Let the courts decide not you.

And you deduced this based on my opinion that I do not think that transfering a person in custody while handcuffed and shackeled is out of the norm?



If you were to be picked for jury duty in this case and I was a defence attorney I would challenge you and win!

Based on your lack of ability in reading this jurist, if you were a defense attorney, Helio would likely get the maximum sentence.

[Easy Drifter]

Cuffs I might agree with. Shackles no. As I think you stated there are no pictures of that just a newspaper report.
Again consider the Conrad Black case where the dollar amounts far exceeded this case and there were no handcuffs let alone shackles.
I would still challenge you on this case.
I have won far far more cases than I have lost but I do not practice in the US.
As I said before when you involve forgeign nationals and offshore companies things get pretty convoluted and the IRS do not always win. Nor does Revenue Canada!
Peace?

[Chris R]

If someone is in Federal custody they are also under the protection of the Federal government.

Now just suppose someone who is accused of a crime gets excited in court and starts jumping up and down proclaiming innocence (very plausible for most people). Now say an over-zealous court officer decides it is prudent to restrain the person in question with a stun gun and said person falls, hits his or her head on the table and subsequently dies from the injury. Who would be in trouble now??

Also, and this happened as well, suppose the unrestrained accused is walking outside the court house and is taken either willfully or not by a third party either for reasons of flight or to be held as "ransom" or something similar.

these are things that happen and because these things happen all people in custody should be treated a consistent and similar way regardless of what you may think are extenuating circumstances. Helio might be a no-trouble detainee but the next guy might not and who is going to consistently make that judgement correctly??

[Rex Monaco]

Again consider the Conrad Black case where the dollar amounts far exceeded this case and there were no handcuffs let alone shackles.

I know nothing of this case and I've never heard of this person.

Was Lord Black ever in the custody of authorities being held at a detention center before his transfer to his first court appearence as was Helio?



I would still challenge you on this case.

That's your job. And my job would be to get myself kicked off the jury. It sounds like you'd make that job easy for me. ;)



As I said before when you involve forgeign nationals and offshore companies things get pretty convoluted and the IRS do not always win. Nor does Revenue Canada!
Peace?

I haven't heard enough of the case against Helio to form an opinion. And I'm certainly no fan of the IRS and their heavy tactics.

I just don't think that a 'prisoner' being transfered from a detention center into a court deserves special treatment just because of their life status. If it's good enough for the anonymous poor person, then it's good enough for the famous rich one.

Peace.

[garyshell]

If someone is in Federal custody they are also under the protection of the Federal government.

Now just suppose someone who is accused of a crime gets excited in court and starts jumping up and down proclaiming innocence (very plausible for most people). Now say an over-zealous court officer decides it is prudent to restrain the person in question with a stun gun and said person falls, hits his or her head on the table and subsequently dies from the injury. Who would be in trouble now??

Also, and this happened as well, suppose the unrestrained accused is walking outside the court house and is taken either willfully or not by a third party either for reasons of flight or to be held as "ransom" or something similar.

these are things that happen and because these things happen all people in custody should be treated a consistent and similar way regardless of what you may think are extenuating circumstances. Helio might be a no-trouble detainee but the next guy might not and who is going to consistently make that judgement correctly??


Hell, then why stop at handcuffs and shackles? Put 'em all in straight jackets, gag 'em to prevent the outbursts and, oh I don't know, maybe blindfold them too. We don't want anyone suffering a heart attack when the judge looks to sternly at them, now do we. :eek: <shakes head>

Gary

[pits4me]

Let's be clear about the difference between a suspect and a criminal. He is not a criminal until a verdict of guilty is returned.

Except in tax evasion situations. The IRS like to dehumanize people. A guilty until proven innocent propensity. Good to see Helio win Saturday.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rex. FYI. Conrad Black is a Canadian/British Subject.. (born in Canada, took up UK citizenship to attain a Lord's chair from the Queen). He is a multi-billionaire or was before his many companies started to fall on hard time. He owned many newspapers in the US, most prominently the Chicago Sun-Times. He was indicted on a laundry list of felony charges including wire fraud, tax evasion and the like. He was convicted on just a fraction of those charges. It was a major story in Chicago last summer. He is now doing time in Club Fed for 6 years.

Where is this a similar situation to Helio? He was a foreign national living in the US at the time. He was somewhat famous (Helio moreso) and unlike Helio VERY well connected. Donald Trump, Martha Stewart and Warren Buffett are friends of Blacks. When He was indicted, he flew in from Toronto (where he still had some offices) to surrender himself to authorities. He gave up his passport and was at no point shackled of cuffed until he was CONVICTED and being sent to jail.

Helio as far as I know was NOT shackled or cuffed. At no point in this thread ( and I may have missed something but I doubt it) was there any concrete proof given of this. The IRS are nasty to deal with and often overzealous but they are NOT the arresting authority. The DA's office orders the arrest or serves the warrant of arrest. If Helio was treated like a thug, I would suggest it is the DA in South Florida who is trying to score points with the electorate by embarassing Helio, but since I have seen no pictures of Helio in cuffs, I am going to assume (silly me I know) he was treated with respect, the same way Conrad Black was. He cant leave the US, but lets face it, Helio is a celeb and would be hard pressed to buy a plane ticket without someone figuring out who he was.

He is technically a flight risk but I think he is quite willing to face the music. He is claiming he was duped. I have no idea and nor does anyone on this board. That said, I agree with JAG that people who don't watch what is being done on their behalf as far as taxes are concerned don't get my sympathy really...but that said, he deserves a fair trial. God knows the jurors will have their eyes glazing over in the first 15 minutes Iam sure....

It isn't any wonder the IRS kicks ass at putting people behind bars...half the jurors convict the schmuck just to get the hell away from all the lawyers...

[chuck34]

This cuffs/shackles thing is kind of dumb. He doesn't necessarily need to be deemed a flight risk for this type of treatment. It very well could be that whatever judge he went in front of mandates that all accused are placed in restraints while in court, or it could be a federal mandate. The judge could have been scared before by someone he/she didn't think was dangerous. So now he/she doesn't want to take a chance. Or maybe it's just a Federal court mandate. Or maybe it's simply because he's a foreign national. Does anyone really know.

[gofastandwynn]

Meanwhile Rep. Charles Rangel (D) is under investigation for hiding income from rental property from the IRS, and he leads the House committee responsible for the federal tax code. Don't see him in shackles.

[MDS]

Meanwhile Rep. Charles Rangel (D) is under investigation for hiding income from rental property from the IRS, and he leads the House committee responsible for the federal tax code. Don't see him in shackles.

Words are fun!

Investigation:to make a systematic examination ; especially : to conduct an official inquiry

Indictment: a formal written statement framed by a prosecuting authority and found by a jury (as a grand jury) charging a person with an offense

Rangel has not been handcuffed because his investigation is ongoing. Helio was shacked because his investigation is complete, and there is enough evidence to cause a grand jury to issue an indictment, two entirely seperate things.