Kudos to Massa for his behavior

[ioan]

I'm pretty mad at the team and trying to find something positive about all this mess. So I was pretty happy to see that Felipe is not so downbeat and that he is doing the right thing of the track:


"Racing's racing and these things can happen. We are all human beings and everybody can make mistakes.

"I'm not the kind of guy who goes to the guy and fights with him, so I go to the guy and give him even more motivation because we need him and we need everybody together for the last three races of the season.

"Seven points is seven points but we have 30 in front of us and we have a quick car."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71001

[SGWilko]

Massa really has come of age this season. I am as guilty as the next person for bad mouthing the guy in Melbourne, but he has demoralised the Ice and a Slice in my G&T man, and has taken this title race by the balls.

WHy is it, when Kimi is on form he cocks it up himself, but when Massa is on form, his team take it away from him.

If Massa wins the title this year, it will be because he WAS the better driver, made the most of his car and could summount the cold tyres issue.

I will be more than happy to see him take it. I still think the Ferrari is the more complete car, just that Massa is the more complete driver in that team.

Kimi's mistake was schoolboy, and I have to say, I hope LD-M throws the old mans Urn at him!!!

[Storm]

Yep Massa has matured on and off the track and getting respect for the same from people (like me) who doubted his ability (to win a title , not his driving ability)..Thats a very mature reaction to a horrible mistake which could mean losing the title this year. I hope he can come back strongly and the team does things properly in the next 3 races to give him maximum chance to win this title.

After the 2 opening races with 0 points, he came back so I'm sure he will up there fighting for the win/title in the next GP too.

[Dave B]

Team boss Stefano Domenicali said after the race that Massa had met with the mechanic who had made the mistake to console him.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71001

Class guy :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

Felipe is very much a team player :up: and he's not alone in knowing you win as a team and you lose as a team.

Felipe is very much a team player :up: and he's not alone in knowing you win as a team and you lose as a team.

Not so sure his team-mate does.

[wedge]

Massa really has come of age this season. I am as guilty as the next person for bad mouthing the guy in Melbourne, but he has demoralised the Ice and a Slice in my G&T man, and has taken this title race by the balls.

WHy is it, when Kimi is on form he cocks it up himself, but when Massa is on form, his team take it away from him.

If Massa wins the title this year, it will be because he WAS the better driver, made the most of his car and could summount the cold tyres issue.

I will be more than happy to see him take it. I still think the Ferrari is the more complete car, just that Massa is the more complete driver in that team.

Kimi's mistake was schoolboy, and I have to say, I hope LD-M throws the old mans Urn at him!!!

But he still made an unforced error and spun off near the end.

[ioan]

But he still made an unforced error and spun off near the end.

Yeah that must be what made the difference between finishing 13th or winning. No way it was because they screwed him at the pitstop, neither the drive through nor the puncture he had. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

Yeah that must be what made the difference between finishing 13th or winning. No way it was because they screwed him at the pitstop, neither the drive through nor the puncture he had. :rolleyes:

Not to mention Malaysia, Silverstone, Melbourne. Would he still be 7pts behind Hamilton without those errors?

[cosmicpanda]

Reminds me of Schumacher's relationship with his teams. Remember when his engine blew at Suzuka?

[SGWilko]

But he still made an unforced error and spun off near the end.

Did he get a puncture because he spun off, or did he get a puncture that caused the spin?

[ioan]

Not to mention Malaysia, Silverstone, Melbourne. Would he still be 7pts behind Hamilton without those errors?

Give me a break, you were having a go at him because he finished out of the points after having his race destroyed by the team in the pits, getting a drive through penalty because of the same team error and than having a puncture!

Want to have a go at him, you're free to do it, but base it on something realistic.

So he had some problems this year (Melbourne, Sepang and Silverstone) although the team never managed to find out why the car wasn't behaving as it should in any of those cases.

Still after all his troubles he is 20 points in front of his WDC team mate, yet he is getting bashed for a race destroyed by none of his doing. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

Did he get a puncture because he spun off, or did he get a puncture that caused the spin?

You tell me. I never heard anything relating to a puncture

[ioan]

You tell me. I never heard anything relating to a puncture

Than check it out first and than start bashing the driver.

And no he didn't spin because of the puncture.
The puncture was after the drive through penalty, and thus he had to stop again at half way through the race and have a heavy car on super soft tires for the rest of the race. His tires must have been in not a perfect condition after 20 laps on them thus the spin, IMO.

Anyway, spin or not, he wouldn't have been in the points.

[ArrowsFA1]

You tell me. I never heard anything relating to a puncture

"With the Safety Car still on track, I didn't lose a lap, but then I got a drive-through and later I also picked up a puncture in the left rear."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71000

He doesn't say whether the puncture caused his spin or the spin caused the puncture :dozey:

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71000

He doesn't say whether the puncture caused his spin or the spin caused the puncture :dozey:

Did any of you watch the race?
He got his puncture after the drive through and as a result he had to pit again earlier than predicted, than he had a spin just before the 2nd SC period (in fact it was rather a slide at the entry of the grandstands tunnel.

[wedge]

Unforced error, IMO.

I like Massa, I rate him highly but I make no secret I that I will not find it surprising if he span off on his accord. If he finishes the year as WDC/no spins then he deserves the credit.

[wedge]

Did any of you watch the race?
He got his puncture after the drive through and as a result he had to pit again earlier than predicted, than he had a spin just before the 2nd SC period (in fact it was rather a slide at the entry of the grandstands tunnel.

If he had a puncture then surely they would've pitted Massa during SC?

[ioan]

If he had a puncture then surely they would've pitted Massa during SC?

He's got the puncture after the drive through penalty and before his 2nd scheduled pit stop.
How could they pit him during the SC if he didn't had a puncture at that moment? :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Fair play, I really like Massa, his approach is really mature and heartwarming to an extent. He is slowly removing previous doubts people had of him, including me, and this is another example of this. Judging by this season, I dare say he is one of the fastest drivers out there, and consistant as well.

His only down sides are continued question marks on his wet weather driver, and his ability to work through the field. Though I don't think yesterday would be a fair example, Hamilton nor Kimi made little real improvements going up the field through overtaking. If you look at Kubica, he was much the same as Massa.

Personally, I hope Massa wins the title this year.

[F1boat]

Classy driver and good-hearted. Will be a deserving champion, if he manages to win it, after all.

[wedge]

He's got the puncture after the drive through penalty and before his 2nd scheduled pit stop.
How could they pit him during the SC if he didn't had a puncture at that moment? :rolleyes:

I'm confused.

Was Massa's off a result of a puncture or unforced error?

[F1boat]

IMO this is not really important, the topic is about his attitude :)

[555-04Q2]

Massa has become a good, fast driver, as some of us knew he would become. He has always been good natured and polite, a nice bloke from what I have seen of him over the years. Hope he can catch Hamilton and win the WDC :)

[Garry Walker]

This is why I like Kimi and Felipe as Ferrari drivers. Neither are alonso or Kubica style "the team is against me" crybabies, but rather keep the critic to themselves and have a really good attitude. That, besides the fact that both are really fast drivers, is why I am glad they will be at Ferrari till 2010. I would find it impossible to like Ferrari if someone like Alonso or Hamilton was there.



So he had some problems this year (Melbourne, Sepang and Silverstone) although the team never managed to find out why the car wasn't behaving as it should in any of those cases.
The problem was in the driver in those cases. Felipe has mostly either been amazing or awful this year. There are some races where Schumacher would find it hard to fight against him (Bahrain, Valencia - infact, Valencia was probably the best performance of his career to date) and there are some races where he has just been nowhere as good as he really can be. Which has been his weakness before. Thankfully the latter have remained a few.



Still after all his troubles he is 20 points in front of his WDC team mate, yet he is getting bashed for a race destroyed by none of his doing. :rolleyes: Yeah and Kimi hasn`t had troubles at all this year.

[ioan]

This is why I like Kimi and Felipe as Ferrari drivers. Neither are alonso or Kubica style "the team is against me" crybabies, but rather keep the critic to themselves and have a really good attitude. That, besides the fact that both are really fast drivers, is why I am glad they will be at Ferrari till 2010. I would find it impossible to like Ferrari if someone like Alonso or Hamilton was there.

The problem was in the driver in those cases. Felipe has mostly either been amazing or awful this year. There are some races where Schumacher would find it hard to fight against him (Bahrain, Valencia - infact, Valencia was probably the best performance of his career to date) and there are some races where he has just been nowhere as good as he really can be. Which has been his weakness before. Thankfully the latter have remained a few.

Yeah and Kimi hasn`t had troubles at all this year.

They both had about the same share of troubles, the 20 points difference is still there though. :rolleyes:

[Garry Walker]

They both had about the same share of troubles, the 20 points difference is still there though. :rolleyes:

You highlighted only Massas troubles, omitting any mention of Kimis trouble. As if he had had a perfect year. So I took it upon myself to clear that up.

The problem is that you are far too sensitive about Massa

[ioan]

The problem is that you are far too sensitive about Massa

Sure I am, the guy worked hard during his whole career to get where he is.
He wasn't thrown in the best car on the grid straight away like Hamy.
Nor was he in a race winning car in his 2nd season like Kimi.

He worked his way up, and when he gets to the point when he can make it to the very top he's screwed by the team. And guess what the usual suspects are blaming him for not getting a top result after loosing 1 minute in the pits, getting a drive through penalty, a puncture and subsequently having to drive almost half of the race on the super soft tires (that were up to the task for a handful of laps only).

[Rollo]

Massa doesn't immediately jump out as one of those drivers who is supremely talented like Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen. This means that he's had to do that most horrible of things... work.

He's shown that his head has been sufficiently screwed on hard enough in the pressure cooker of F1, that he still realises that the people around him deliver the car so he'd better deliver the driving:

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43751
Massa set the week’s initial benchmark time of 1m23.428s after a trouble-free 101 lap outing, in which he concentrated on set-up work in the morning before switching to longer runs later in the session.

And it's not a small amount of effort he's putting in either. Massa is turning results through pluck, character and effort rather than raw talent.

[ArrowsFA1]

Sure I am, the guy worked hard during his whole career to get where he is.
He wasn't thrown in the best car on the grid straight away like Hamy.
Just a little niggle, but by "Hamy" I take it you mean Lewis Hamilton? It's just that your references to "Hamy" and Lewy" get a little tiresome when you're happy to use other drivers correct names.

As for Massa, yes he's worked hard but he's not unique in that respect. He's a strong driver and a proven race winner, and most of his performances this year have impressed me.

[ioan]

Just a little niggle, but by "Hamy" I take it you mean Lewis Hamilton? It's just that your references to "Hamy" and Lewy" get a little tiresome when you're happy to use other drivers correct names.

Didn't find something more serious to discuss? I didn't see you complain about Schumi back in the days when you were moderating around here! :rolleyes:

It stays Hamy, it's way shorter. :D

[F1boat]

I agree with ioan. Arrows, you never appeared when someone called Michael the Cheatmaster, the Chin or someting ridiculous. Hamy is pretty harmless IMO. It is not insulting. No need to panic, as Renault crew would say ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Didn't find something more serious to discuss?
Which is why I called it "a little niggle", but I don't think it's too much to ask.

I didn't see you complain about Schumi back in the days when you were moderating around here! :rolleyes:

I agree with ioan. Arrows, you never appeared when someone called Michael the Cheatmaster, the Chin or someting ridiculous.
A lot of what mods do here goes unseen. You may remember forum members being asked to use drivers' proper names; some may even remember the 'pro' & 'anti' forums. That was a fun time to be a mod :laugh:

Hamy is pretty harmless IMO. It is not insulting. No need to panic, as Renault crew would say ;)
I agree, it's not insulting and it is fairly harmless which, again, is why I called it a "little niggle".

[ioan]

I mainly (90%) use it because it's way shorter and I hate to use Lewis as I'm not that fond of him (as with Kimi and Felipe).
So don't get upset, it's only 10% to make fun of him. ;)

[Tonieke]

Sure I am, the guy worked hard during his whole career to get where he is.
He wasn't thrown in the best car on the grid straight away like Hamy.
Nor was he in a race winning car in his 2nd season like Kimi.

Are you saying now lewis not worked hard to be where he is right now ? Ever checked his career so far ?

and sure..he was in one of the best cars right away..But straight from the start he competed with one of the best F1 drivers of this period....fernando..finishing runner up in the WDC...and also this year he performs much better than his team mate Heikki....and is again leading the WDC...so even if he was "thrown" in the car like you say....he deserved the seat and worked hard for it...just like any other driver !!!

[ioan]

Are you saying now lewis not worked hard to be where he is right now ?

That's exactly what I'm saying.



Ever checked his career so far ?

Did you check Felipe's career before F1? At least as good as Hamy's.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Unfortunately there is this assumption where Hamilton is concerned that because McLaren supported his career from an early age that he didn't have to work to get where he is. Frankly that's rubbish. Had he not worked hard, and not produced results all the way to F1, he wouldn't be where he is.

Did you check Felipe's career before F1?
1999 Brazilian F.Chevrolet - Champion
2000 Euro F.Renault - Champion
2001 F3000 Euro Series - Champion

[Azumanga Davo]

Anyone tell me if Massa was on an old engine or was started a new engine? I ask because if the engine was new, that was a very long time for it being stationary.

[Tonieke]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Did you check Felipe's career before F1? At least as good as Hamy's.

what more should he have donne in your eyes for you to say he worked as hard as any other driver ? apart from winning championship after championship that is....

and did I anywhere said massa was a bad driver?..Just like Lewis..Felipe deserves a spot in a top team...and they both worked hard for it..you just seems to have a problem saying one positive word about Lewis..But that is no news !

[Tonieke]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Did you check Felipe's career before F1? At least as good as Hamy's.

what more should he have donne in your eyes for you to say he worked as hard as any other driver ? apart from winning championship after championship that is....

and did I anywhere said massa was a bad driver?..Just like Lewis..Felipe deserves a spot in a top team...and they both worked hard for it..you just seems to have a problem saying one positive word about Lewis..But that is no news !

[F1boat]

In my opinion it is good for a young driver to start in an inferior team. Undoubtedly Lewis was tremendous in GP 2 and British F3 and yet it is easier when you immediately enter a top team like him, JV or Montoya. When you have an experienced teammate it is even better, because you can learn from him. There is a percepetion however, that Lewis was the McLaren's prefered choice for a champion, highlited by the infamous comment "we were basically racing Alonso". So for me ioan is right to say that Massa's apprenticeship was longer and harder - entered a midfield team, then supported Michael for one year and only then was able to fight for the championship. Even emotionally this makes him look nicer, while Lewis and JV ten years ago look a bit lucky.

[Tonieke]

In my opinion it is good for a young driver to start in an inferior team. Undoubtedly Lewis was tremendous in GP 2 and British F3 and yet it is easier when you immediately enter a top team like him, JV or Montoya. When you have an experienced teammate it is even better, because you can learn from him. There is a percepetion however, that Lewis was the McLaren's prefered choice for a champion, highlited by the infamous comment "we were basically racing Alonso". So for me ioan is right to say that Massa's apprenticeship was longer and harder - entered a midfield team, then supported Michael for one year and only then was able to fight for the championship. Even emotionally this makes him look nicer, while Lewis and JV ten years ago look a bit lucky.

even if he was the prefered driver in a team....he still had to show on the track he was he fastest and deserved that status.....I would rather say it is an disadvantage having to deal with the preasure of performing right away being a rookie in a top team...Usualy newbies are getting some credit..but with him everyone expected results right away..and sure he made mistakes..but all in all I think so far he dealed pretty well with preasure since he joined F1 !

2nd...what would make you think Lewis his car was superiour to the one Fernando was racing in last season ?

3th..so the same goes for heikki ? His car is also not equal to the one lewis is racing in as his results might predict ?

and if you say yes to my last 2 questions..please explain !

[ArrowsFA1]

I think it's certainly true that Massa has more experience to draw on than Hamilton, but given that he's a 7-season F1 "veteran" that is not surprising. Is it "easier" entering a top team? Given what we've seen in the last two seasons I don't think "easy" would describe Hamilton's introduction to F1!

I'm not sure whether it is "better" for a driver to start in an inferior team. Some drivers benefit from the "schooling" that provides but McLaren clearly felt Hamilton was ready and that decision has been proved to be correct IMHO. The Massa we saw in 2002, on the other hand, was not ready. It has taken more time for him to develop into the driver we see today.

Both drivers may have got to where they are in different ways, but the fact remains that they are both championship contenders so which ever route they took was the right one!

I happen to believe that, longer term, Hamilton will show he is the better driver. I genuinely think he is the kind of driver we see only once in a while, and he will continue to improve. But that's just my opinion and time, and the history books, will tell.

[Ranger]

Did you check Felipe's career before F1? At least as good as Hamy's.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Find me anyone who has won anything equivalent in both multitide and quality to a:
- European karting title
- UK Formula Renault title
- Euro F3 title
- F3 Masters title
- GP2 title
...by the age of 22 and I'll disagree.

Not that it means anything regarding F1 performances.

[F1boat]

2nd...what would make you think Lewis his car was superiour to the one Fernando was racing in last season ?

3th..so the same goes for heikki ? His car is also not equal to the one lewis is racing in as his results might predict ?

and if you say yes to my last 2 questions..please explain !

I think that McLaren wanted Lewis to win and helped him in subtle ways which are not obvious for outsiders.
To the second question, I rate Lewis higher than Heikki, no doubt. I don't know whether he is as special as Arrows says, lbut I doubt that he is like Michael. I believe that he might be much more successful then Massa, because he is much younger and entered a top team very early - so we are back from where we started.

[ArrowsFA1]

I believe that he might be much more successful then Massa, because he is much younger and entered a top team very early.
A couple of questions from that:

Does that mean that any young driver entering a top team would produce the same results as Hamilton?

Why is it that teams do not generally take the kind of "risk" McLaren did? Why, for example, did Ferrari not have Massa racing for them sooner than 2006?

[F1boat]

Arrows, the only other example of a rookie entering a top team immediately is Jacques Villeneuve - Juan Montoya, too, but Williams was not that fast in 2001. And both drivers were Indy Car/CART champions, so it isn't so surprising. I am not trying to say that Lewis does not deserve his place, rather, that he had a lucky break.
And to your question I think that Vettel for example could produce similar results to Lewis in a car that strong.

[CNR]

http://formula1.about.com/od/profiles/p/massa.htm


Previous F1 Teams:
2002 Sauber[/*:m:3a4r6jfp]
2003 Ferrari test driver[/*:m:3a4r6jfp]
2004 - 2005 Sauber[/*:m:3a4r6jfp]
2006 - 2008 Ferrari[/*:m:3a4r6jfp]
Background:

Felipe started go-karting (http://formula1.about.com/od/formula1101/ig/Go-Karting--The-Road-to-F1-/index.htm)racing at age 8, and spent nine years in the sport, without winning a championship as he never had the budget for a good kart. Even so, his results were good and he moved to car racing in 1998 in the Formula Chevrolet series, which he then won the following year. In 2000 he moved to Europe and won the Formula Renault Europe and Italy championships. He then joined the Euro Formula 3000 series and won it too.

His Career Thus Far:
With such clear success in the lower formulas, Felipe was spotted early on by Ferrari (http://formula1.about.com/od/teams/p/Ferrari.htm) and signed to a retainer contract for several years. But he started racing in F1 at the Sauber (http://formula1.about.com/od/teams/p/bmw.htm) team - powered by a Ferrari engine - and in his first season, in 2002, he was considered fast, but a bit wild. He finished five races in accidents.

He he took a year off racing the following season, test driving for Ferrari, and learning more technical baggage and "calming down." When he returned to Sauber in 2004, Peter Sauber, the team owner, said that he had improved vastly, and indeed after scoring only 4 points in 2002, he scored 12 in 2004.

[wedge]

The main problem I have with Massa is that he's consistently inconsistent. By that I mean every year we see him make the same schoolboy error off unforced errors ie. spinning off his own accord.

In his Sauber days he was quick but erratic.

In 2006 I remember he span off the into the first corner in Bahrain, Hungary in the wet he span off left, right and centre.

2008 and he's making the same basic mistakes - and this is from a veteran driver!

Compare that with Sato who probably had the same number of chances in F1, notably known as a lairy driver and yet in his Super Aguri days he redeems himself by being superbly consistent and almost mistake free.

Please don't call me a McLaren fanboy or Ferrari basher, this is from an unbiased perspective - McLaren bashers love to dig at Hamilton for coming off the McLaren production line but would Massa be in the position he is today if he wasn't managed by Nicholas Todt?

[Knock-on]

Arrows, the only other example of a rookie entering a top team immediately is Jacques Villeneuve - Juan Montoya, too, but Williams was not that fast in 2001. And both drivers were Indy Car/CART champions, so it isn't so surprising. I am not trying to say that Lewis does not deserve his place, rather, that he had a lucky break.
And to your question I think that Vettel for example could produce similar results to Lewis in a car that strong.

Some people call it a lucky break but I think he made his luck.

No "Rookie" has ever had such a hard entry into F1 but he's coped with everything and so very nearly took the championship in his first year.

I think this alone proves that there was little luck involved but a good decision from Ron Dennis.

As for other drivers like SV, then I am sure they can do a great job in the McLaren but could he produce similar results?

Well, it's all opinion but the only comparison we have is HK. Heikki was expected to be as quick as Lewis but can't keep up with him.

Now, the conspiracy theories will say that Lewis has a better car, better mechanics and that Heikki is being sabotaged :laugh:

However, it's evident that McLaren are desperate for HK to do better and help in both championships so that doesn't really hold water.

Perhaps the obvious answer is the right one. Lewis is bloody quick and the single factor making the difference?

[ShiftingGears]

Compare that with Sato who probably had the same number of chances in F1, notably known as a lairy driver and yet in his Super Aguri days he redeems himself by being superbly consistent and almost mistake free.

Yes, but even when Sato was consistent (at BAR) he was totally crushed pace-wise by Button. Massa is many, many times the driver Sato is.

[ioan]

Anyone tell me if Massa was on an old engine or was started a new engine? I ask because if the engine was new, that was a very long time for it being stationary.

It was the 2nd race for that engine.

[ioan]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Find me anyone who has won anything equivalent in both multitide and quality to a:
- European karting title
- UK Formula Renault title
- Euro F3 title
- F3 Masters title
- GP2 title
...by the age of 22 and I'll disagree.

Not that it means anything regarding F1 performances.

I think that Massa did win the F3000 European Championship when he was 22 too. And he has a list of other championships won before that.

Or is it because there was no GP2 back in 2001 that he isn't up to Hamy's level? Care to explain?

Forgot to mention that Massa wasn't backed by mcLaren or any other big F1 team since he was a junior racer. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

Yes, but even when Sato was consistent (at BAR) he was totally crushed pace-wise by Button. Massa is many, many times the driver Sato is.

And even if Massa wins the WDC he isn't the best driver on the grid, IMHO.

[wedge]

Forgot to mention that Massa wasn't backed by mcLaren or any other big F1 team since he was a junior racer. :rolleyes:

Does it matter?

Bad or good car you make the most of it and impress others.

[PolePosition_1]

I would find it impossible to like Ferrari if someone like Alonso or Hamilton was there.


Did you like Ferrari when Schumacher was there?

[PolePosition_1]

He wasn't thrown in the best car on the grid straight away like Hamy.
Nor was he in a race winning car in his 2nd season like Kimi.



Like Kimi and Michael Schumacher :)

[Knock-on]

Like Kimi and Michael Schumacher :)

ioan likes to forget that Schumacher's entry into F1 was paid for by Mercedes ;)

[PolePosition_1]

That's exactly what I'm saying.



Did you check Felipe's career before F1? At least as good as Hamy's.

Thats a slightly niave view of F1 and how drivers get in if you think Lewis didn't work hard to get into F1.

For sure, his path whilst in F1 has been pretty plain sailing in turns of getting a competitive car, but dare I say, he probably worked slightly hard getting into a position of getting into F1 in many respects. Being contracted to McLaren from a young age, must have brought great pressures which other drivers wouldn't have had to deal with. For example maintaining good grades at school while doing his racing must have been challenging.

I doubt he had much of a childhood from the age of 11, compared to other drivers.

Just because its been plain sailing whilst he been in F1, where the world media can see, doesn't mean he didn't work hard when the world media wasn't on him.

[ioan]

Thats a slightly niave view of F1 and how drivers get in if you think Lewis didn't work hard to get into F1.

I think that next time you decide to reply to one of my post you better read and understand what you are answering to.
No offense intended but all you do is trying to disagree with things you don't read or don't understand.

I'll help you out this time around.
What I said is that Hamy didn't work his way through the ranks in order to deserve a top F1 seat. I didn't say that he didn't do enough in order to get a F1 seat. See the difference? :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that Massa did won the F3000 European Championship when he was 22 too. And he has a list of other championships won before that.
As posted earlier:

1999 Brazilian F.Chevrolet - Champion
2000 Euro F.Renault - Champion
2001 F3000 Euro Series (http://uk.geocities.com/unofficialf3000/euro3000/euro3000_2001stats.htm) - Champion

Or is it because there was no GP2 back in 2001 that he isn't up to Hamy's level? Care to explain?
The F3000 Euro Series was essentially a national (Italian) series relabelled. You're right that there was no GP2 back then - the International F3000 Series still had a few seasons to run.

Forgot to mention that Massa wasn't backed by mcLaren or any other big F1 team since he was a junior racer. :rolleyes:
Schumacher was backed by Mercedes. Vettel has been backed by Red Bull. I don't see you doubting their ability because of it, and yet because it's Hamilton and McLaren... :dozey:

[PolePosition_1]

I think that next time you decide to reply to one of my post you better read and understand what you are answering to.
No offense intended but all you do is trying to disagree with things you don't read or don't understand.

I'll help you out this time around.
What I said is that Hamy didn't work his way through the ranks in order to deserve a top F1 seat. I didn't say that he didn't do enough in order to get a F1 seat. See the difference? :rolleyes:

Yeah, all I'm saying is that he does deserve a top seat, because he's worked harder in many respects than other drivers. Hence why he got himself a top seat from the word go, and deservedly so.

No need to be so defensive and patronising Ioan :)

[Ranger]

Or is it because there was no GP2 back in 2001 that he isn't up to Hamy's level? Care to explain?

The F3000 Euro championship (which Massa competed in) was a poorer cousin of the actual F3000 Championship (which was the same thing as GP2), where most of the talent was around that time, so I don't consider that title equivalent to a F3000/GP2 title.

That's just my opinion.

[ioan]

The F3000 Euro Series was essentially a national (Italian) series relabelled. You're right that there was no GP2 back then - the International F3000 Series still had a few seasons to run.

This must be saying a lot about F3000 against F3000 in term of competitiveness:


However, by 2002 expenses were once more very high and the number of entries, and sponsors, rapidly dwindled. Formula 3000 was experiencing tough competition with cheaper formulae, such as European F3000 (using ex-FIA 1999 and 2002 Lola chassis), World Series by Nissan (also known as Formula Nissan) and Formula Renault V6 Eurocup, as well as the North American CART series. While drivers from these series such as Juan Pablo Montoya (CART), Cristiano da Matta (CART), and Felipe Massa (EF3000) found top rides in Formula One, the F3000 drivers seemed to have inordinate difficulty in moving onwards. By the end of 2003, car counts had fallen to new lows.



Schumacher was backed by Mercedes. Vettel has been backed by Red Bull. I don't see you doubting their ability because of it, and yet because it's Hamilton and McLaren... :dozey:

Sure they were but not directly into the top teams, unless you consider the Jordan and Torro Rosso teams of the same level with McLaren! :rolleyes:

What I found interesting is how people are trying to defend the indefensible and explain the unexplainable for whatever reason.

Fact: Massa deserved to be in F1 and thus was given a place in a midpack team and than worked his way up. People (the usual suspects) are dismissing him for avergae performances in an average car.
He worked his way up to become the top driver of the most prestigious F1 team. People dislike him for that and hit him for the pre 2006 history.

Fact: Hamilton deserved to be in F1. He gets a seat in the one of the best or the best car last season. People (we all know whom, the usual suspects from the the anti-Massa list) are praising him as the best thing ever!
He never had to prove himself in f1 in a smaller team with an inferior car, but he's the next Senna/Prost/Schumacher/Fangio/Ascari etc. :rolleyes:

You may think of Hamy that he's the best ever and so on, but try to be objective when others say words that don't praise him, they might be more objective than you regarding your idol.

[ioan]

The F3000 Euro championship (which Massa competed in) was a poorer cousin of the actual F3000 Championship (which was the same thing as GP2), where most of the talent was around that time, so I don't consider that title equivalent to a F3000/GP2 title.

That's just my opinion.

As stated o the Wikipedia site after the 2002 season drivers from different series (Massa included) were given a seat in F1, not the International F3000 championship drivers however. I've found that interesting.

[Knock-on]

The F3000 Euro championship (which Massa competed in) was a poorer cousin of the actual F3000 Championship (which was the same thing as GP2), where most of the talent was around that time, so I don't consider that title equivalent to a F3000/GP2 title.

That's just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Euro_Formula_3000_season

It was OK but nowhere near as competitive as GP2.

Look at the drivers he was up against. I've never heard of them compared to drivers like Glock, Piquet, Pantano, Bruni, Premet etc that Lewis had to beat.

[ioan]

Yeah, all I'm saying is that he does deserve a top seat, because he's worked harder in many respects than other drivers. Hence why he got himself a top seat from the word go, and deservedly so.

Why do you think he worked harder than other drivers, and thus deserved a top team seat? I'm expecting proof for this claim (impossible to prove, but still).



No need to be so defensive and patronising Ioan :)

Really? All you do is picking on me after not even understanding my posts. I say I was pretty reasonable.

[wedge]

No one is picking on you Ioan.

It's called constructive criticism, you see it as driver bashing and taking it a bit too personally.

You're quite happy to bash McLaren/Hamilton but now its not so nice when the table is turned is it?

[ArrowsFA1]

Ten years ago, two boys were splashed over the newspapers when they became the youngest drivers signed by McLaren. Lewis Hamilton was 13 and already had a certain cool about him. Wesley Graves was 12, wore outsized spectacles and looked rather geeky. Today, Hamilton is said to be the most valuable commodity in British sport; Graves is unemployed, lives at home with his parents in their Leicester council house and hasn't raced for seven years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jul/28/features.comment


Apart from karters Hamilton and Graves, the programme is committed to helping four others. In German F3, there is Norman Simon. In the International F3000 Championship, regular driver Nick Heidfeld will be supported for a full season's racing, with Nicolas Minassian and Ricardo Zonta sharing part-programmes.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/jan20/support.html

[ioan]

No one is picking on you Ioan.

It's called constructive criticism, you see it as driver bashing and taking it a bit too personally.

You're quite happy to bash McLaren/Hamilton but now its not so nice when the table is turned is it?

I can take criticism when is based on something tangible, like facts for example.
I call the rest of the so called criticism bull$h!t. And the answer to that can't be exactly praise.

[F1boat]

No "Rookie" has ever had such a hard entry into F1 but he's coped with everything and so very nearly took the championship in his first year.

Perhaps the obvious answer is the right one. Lewis is bloody quick and the single factor making the difference?

JV was almost as successful. What's so hard about Hamilton's first season to me is not clear. Both he and JV was lucky to enter the series in so competitive seat.
Lewis may or may not be as good as Massa. But the fact is that he entered immediately in a top team which accelerated the results. And about that he is bloody quick, I do not doubt this, but that he is that much quicker then the others, I disagree. He is one of the top drivers, not a magician. The difference is that he had the luck, the opportunity, to enter into a top team immediately, while other drivers, who are probably on the same level, if not better, started their careers into backmaker (Alonso) or midfield (Raikkonen, Massa, Michael Schumacher) teams.

[Knock-on]

JV was almost as successful. What's so hard about Hamilton's first season to me is not clear. Both he and JV was lucky to enter the series in so competitive seat.
Lewis may or may not be as good as Massa. But the fact is that he entered immediately in a top team which accelerated the results. And about that he is bloody quick, I do not doubt this, but that he is that much quicker then the others, I disagree. He is one of the top drivers, not a magician. The difference is that he had the luck, the opportunity, to enter into a top team immediately, while other drivers, who are probably on the same level, if not better, started their careers into backmaker (Alonso) or midfield (Raikkonen, Massa, Michael Schumacher) teams.

Normally, when a Rookie comes into F1, the first year is a settling in year. With Lewis, that was hardly the case.

He was up against the 2X WC in an acrimonious title fight. There was Spygate going on and he became one of the most famous man on the planet almost overnight.

I would say that was a tough baptism in F1

[Firstgear]

Well, I think Lewis' first year was inteded to be a "settling in" year and that he was supposed to learn and take notes from Alonso. But he just got "up to speed" (no pun intended) so fast that the plan changed mid season and the team decided to let both drivers go at it.

This just shows how much raw talent Lewis has. It doesn't make him more, or less, likeable. Just very gifted.

[PolePosition_1]

He never had to prove himself in f1 in a smaller team with an inferior car, but he's the next Senna/Prost/Schumacher/Fangio/Ascari etc. :rolleyes:



all due respect here, but if thats your main area of concern, I'm presuming your a Schumacher fan, he never raced in a crap car either. I guess you could claim the 1991 Jordan was poor, but that was just 1 race.

Unfortunately there is this assumption where Hamilton is concerned that because McLaren supported his career from an early age that he didn't have to work to get where he is. Frankly that's rubbish. Had he not worked hard, and not produced results all the way to F1, he wouldn't be where he is.

Sometimes....but admittedly not often...I wholeheartedly agree with you.

If at any time Mr Lewis Hamilton Esquire had not performed to an acceptable level, and we are talking Ron Dennis levels of acceptable performance so pretty high altitude levels, then there is no way that Mr Ronald Dennis would have invested anymore in him, let alone given him an F1 drive.

Had Hamilton not shone at every level, and not won at every level, he would have been dropped.

One thing Ron Dennis definitely isn't is a charity.

As far as I recall, there was some doubt after the 2004 F3 Euroseries if Mclaren would continue to back Hamilton as he had not been a regular front-runner. Had he not won the title the next year, chances are quite high that we would never have heard of him again.

Kudos should go to Ron Dennis for spotting talent, investing in talent but at the same time demanding results.

all due respect here, but if thats your main area of concern, I'm presuming your a Schumacher fan, he never raced in a crap car either.

The 1996 Ferrari was a crap car.

This just shows how much raw talent Lewis has. It doesn't make him more, or less, likeable. Just very gifted.

Exactly.

Very few of the top echelon of drivers are loveable.

But it's not their job to be loveable.

[PolePosition_1]

Why do you think he worked harder than other drivers, and thus deserved a top team seat? I'm expecting proof for this claim (impossible to prove, but still).



Really? All you do is picking on me after not even understanding my posts. I say I was pretty reasonable.


An example of him working harder, would be he was contractually bound to maintain certain school grades, meaning he would have had to work increasingly hard to keep racing, and keeping on top of his school work. I don't know of any other drivers who had this contractual obligation when trying to get into F1.

But as you say, theres no proof, I'm just saying your thought that he didn't work hard to get into a top drive appears slightly niave to me.

And I think if you feel all I do is "pick" on you, you need to not be so sensitive. I don't ever recalling insulting you, we merely seem to clash on a regular basis, possibly because you seem unable to seperate the truth with your obvious passion for Ferrari and everything Ferrari, in my opinion :)

[PolePosition_1]

The 1996 Ferrari was a crap car.

Well, I wouldn't really call it crap. It did finish 2nd in the constructors.

Whilst I agree Michael did have a large influence on that, and he pushed above its limit, it was still the 3rd - 4th best car on the grid.

[Knock-on]

Sometimes....but admittedly not often...I wholeheartedly agree with you.

If at any time Mr Lewis Hamilton Esquire had not performed to an acceptable level, and we are talking Ron Dennis levels of acceptable performance so pretty high altitude levels, then there is no way that Mr Ronald Dennis would have invested anymore in him, let alone given him an F1 drive.

Had Hamilton not shone at every level, and not won at every level, he would have been dropped.

One thing Ron Dennis definitely isn't is a charity.

As far as I recall, there was some doubt after the 2004 F3 Euroseries if Mclaren would continue to back Hamilton as he had not been a regular front-runner. Had he not won the title the next year, chances are quite high that we would never have heard of him again.

Kudos should go to Ron Dennis for spotting talent, investing in talent but at the same time demanding results.

Sometimes....but admittedly not often...I agree 100% as well :D :up:

[ioan]

all due respect here, but if thats your main area of concern, I'm presuming your a Schumacher fan, he never raced in a crap car either. I guess you could claim the 1991 Jordan was poor, but that was just 1 race.

I didn't say crap car, I said inferior car. You know a car that isn't one of the best on the grid?!

Quit reading in my posts what you would like to hear to start arguing. I mean exactly what I write, nothing is hidden between the lines.

[ioan]

An example of him working harder, would be he was contractually bound to maintain certain school grades, meaning he would have had to work increasingly hard to keep racing, and keeping on top of his school work. I don't know of any other drivers who had this contractual obligation when trying to get into F1.

But as you say, theres no proof, I'm just saying your thought that he didn't work hard to get into a top drive appears slightly niave to me.

And I think if you feel all I do is "pick" on you, you need to not be so sensitive. I don't ever recalling insulting you, we merely seem to clash on a regular basis, possibly because you seem unable to seperate the truth with your obvious passion for Ferrari and everything Ferrari, in my opinion :)

You said he worked harder than others. I said prove it, I never said he didn't work hard. :rolleyes:

[Corny]

I think Felipe is going to lose this championship because of mistakes made by Ferrari..

in Silverstone they put him on a dry setup
in Hungary his engine let him down
do I have to name the pitstop of last sunday?

this next to his 2 own mistakes will cost him the title

[ioan]

Well, I wouldn't really call it crap. It did finish 2nd in the constructors.

Whilst I agree Michael did have a large influence on that, and he pushed above its limit, it was still the 3rd - 4th best car on the grid.

That's exactly what we debated for the last few pages of this off topic discussion, that Hamy never drove a 3rd or 4th best car at least, only 1st or maybe 2nd best ones ( and he never excelled when McLaren was slower than Ferrari).

I'm not saying he ain't a very good driver, heck, I know he is very gifted. I only appreciate more the way others did it (see. Alonso, Kimi, Felipe, MS, Hakkinen).

But all this is so off topic when thinking about Felipe's behavior after the last GP that I'll give up discussing it.

[ArrowsFA1]

Sure they were but not directly into the top teams, unless you consider the Jordan and Torro Rosso teams of the same level with McLaren!
You appear to think that the fact that Hamilton has had backing from McLaren detracts from his talent in some way. I disagree. He got that backing because of his talent, and he's kept that backing because of his talent.

[gravity]

I'm a pretty neutral supporter of F1 (drivers and teams). I only have an issue with the way that the FIA and stewards interfere wherever they can.

My opinion of the drivers are pretty neutral, so my posts aren't in favour of one driver over another. I appreciate the talent of all the drivers on the grid. It looks like some people here have an issue with Lewis being that fast. Its not YOUR fault his so fast, so don't take it personally.
Any driver who performed the way he did in the junior series would have deserved a drive in a top team. I don't mean 'just' winning the ch'ships... people (like Ron) took note of HOW he was winning them.

[ArrowsFA1]

My opinion of the drivers are pretty neutral, so my posts aren't in favour of one driver over another...
Too late gravity :eek: By your words in praise of Hamilton he is now your idol :p :laugh:

[ioan]

You appear to think that the fact that Hamilton has had backing from McLaren detracts from his talent in some way. I disagree. He got that backing because of his talent, and he's kept that backing because of his talent.


I'm not saying he ain't a very good driver, heck, I know he is very gifted. I only appreciate more the way others did it (see. Alonso, Kimi, Felipe, MS, Hakkinen).


Make of it what you wish.

[Dave B]

I note that this thread was supposed to be about Massa's conduct. Not his driving, nor about anybody else.

Many of us who don't support Massa had the good grace to acknowledge that whatever else he may have done this year his behaviour and manners have been impeccable.

Shame it's decended into yet another Hamilton-bashing session but I expected little else.

[Garry Walker]

Sure I am, the guy worked hard during his whole career to get where he is. All of them have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot. Financial sacrifices, family sacrifices. Schumachers and kimis dads took on loads of jobs to finance their sons. None of them have had it easy. Not even Hamilton.



He wasn't thrown in the best car on the grid straight away like Hamy.
Nor was he in a race winning car in his 2nd season like Kimi. Or a race winning car in his first season already, like Schumacher.
Get over it, they all showed potential that made them worthy of such seats.



He worked his way up, and when he gets to the point when he can make it to the very top he's screwed by the team. And guess what the usual suspects are blaming him for not getting a top result after loosing 1 minute in the pits, getting a drive through penalty, a puncture and subsequently having to drive almost half of the race on the super soft tires (that were up to the task for a handful of laps only).He is not getting screwed by his team, just that there are problems. They have always been there. Kimi lost world titles in 2003 and 2005 because of car problems, but he never would have been in the running for those had titles McLaren not provided him with a top level car.

Massa must be eternally thankful to Ferrari, because without Ferrari his f1 career would have been finished after 2002. No one wanted him, peter sauber dumped him, he was out of a seat. Yet Ferrari gave him another chance and helped him a lot. Ferrari sticked with him when most thought he was a clown and almost a laughing stock. Now Ferrari have provided him what is a very very fast car and enables him to win races. Sure it has failed a few times, but that is better than having a car that never fails, but is 5th fastest, huh?
So for you to say "screw ferrari" is just bitter and uncalled for.



Massa doesn't immediately jump out as one of those drivers who is supremely talented like Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen. This means that he's had to do that most horrible of things... work.

He's shown that his head has been sufficiently screwed on hard enough in the pressure cooker of F1, that he still realises that the people around him deliver the car so he'd better deliver the driving:

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43751
Massa set the week’s initial benchmark time of 1m23.428s after a trouble-free 101 lap outing, in which he concentrated on set-up work in the morning before switching to longer runs later in the session.

And it's not a small amount of effort he's putting in either. Massa is turning results through pluck, character and effort rather than raw talent.

Massa is a very hard worker. At the monaco GP this year he admitted on friday kimi was clearly faster, he analyzed the data with rob smedley for ages and improved his driving a lot come saturday and beat kimi in qualy.



Compare that with Sato who probably had the same number of chances in F1, notably known as a lairy driver and yet in his Super Aguri days he redeems himself by being superbly consistent and almost mistake free.

Please don't call me a McLaren fanboy or Ferrari basher, this is from an unbiased perspective - McLaren bashers love to dig at Hamilton for coming off the McLaren production line but would Massa be in the position he is today if he wasn't managed by Nicholas Todt?

1) do not compare Sato and Massa, that is just not right.
2) Massa was indeed lucky that Ferrari helped him in 2003. But the last 3 years he has shown Ferrari was right to have faith in him.

[aryan]

I'm not saying he ain't a very good driver, heck, I know he is very gifted. I only appreciate more the way others did it (see. Alonso, Kimi, Felipe, MS, Hakkinen).



Fair enough.

To be fair, I never saw Massa punching above his weight when he was driving a Sauber either. I think you will agree that those days he was regarded as a fast but very unreliable driver.

But why are we discussing Schumacher and Hamilton anyway? I thought this thread was about Massa.

Kudos to him for having worked on his weak points, and also for his reaction towards the Ferrari mechanic. Top bloke :up:

People around here know that I am no Massa fan, and I have put my neck on the line by stating that he will never be a WDC. But that doesn't mean I should close by eyes when he does something admirable. Consoling his mechanic is one such act.

[ArrowsFA1]

People around here know that I am no Massa fan, and I have put my neck on the line by stating that he will never be a WDC. But that doesn't mean I should close by eyes when he does something admirable. Consoling his mechanic is one such act.
Well said :up:

[PolePosition_1]

I didn't say crap car, I said inferior car. You know a car that isn't one of the best on the grid?!

Quit reading in my posts what you would like to hear to start arguing. I mean exactly what I write, nothing is hidden between the lines.

Inferior, ok, well McLaren would have finished second in the contructors if not excluded. By your definition that is an inferior car.

Massa raced in Sauber, again not a bad car, finished 5-6th in contructors whilst he raced for them.

Stop trying to escape what your saying around technicalities. If English isn't your strong point, I apologise, but you don't make yourself very clear.

When most people say inferior, its a safe bet they are refering lower end car, not the 2nd best in the championship.

[PolePosition_1]

You said he worked harder than others. I said prove it, I never said he didn't work hard. :rolleyes:

Lol, he was bound by contract to maintain success in racing and in his school grades. No other driver was. Thats one aspect which is harder than anyone else.

You want me to read your posts, maybe do same for me :) .

[ioan]

Inferior, ok, well McLaren would have finished second in the contructors if not excluded. By your definition that is an inferior car.

Massa raced in Sauber, again not a bad car, finished 5-6th in contructors whilst he raced for them.

Did you actually say it's the same driving the 2nd best car with the 5th or 6th best one?! :laugh:

I'll stop reading your post from now on, they are way to illogical. :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Did you actually say it's the same driving the 2nd best car with the 5th or 6th best one?! :laugh:

I'll stop reading your post from now on, they are way to illogical. :rolleyes:

You said you could class 'inferior' as any car which isn't the best. So in your eyes (by my understanding), any car finishing second in the contructors can be classed as inferior.

Originally, when you said inferior, I thought you were refering to 'crap' cars, such as back end of the field. But you corrected me by saying that when you said inferior, it can mean any car which isn't the best.

So just to clarify, what is your definition of an inferior car?

[F1boat]

Pole, if not the Hungaroring punishment, McLaren would have accumulated more points than Ferrari. They were the best car last year.

[ArrowsFA1]

They were the best car last year.
Which is the "best" car is almost impossible to define. We're talking tiny margins here which vary from circuit to circuit. Both this year and last the Ferrari and McLaren were very closely matched, with the championship positions showing best finishing results.

As an example, Massa's dominant drive in Hungary is not going to be reflected in the final WCC standings this year, but the Ferrari was the "best" car that day.

[jens]

As an example, Massa's dominant drive in Hungary is not going to be reflected in the final WCC standings this year, but the Ferrari was the "best" car that day.

Probably you're mixing words "best" and "fastest". Best car is supposed to cross the finish line too...

[ioan]

You said you could class 'inferior' as any car which isn't the best. So in your eyes (by my understanding), any car finishing second in the contructors can be classed as inferior.

A car finishing 2nd in the constructors championship may be a case of an inferior car or of inferior drivers.

Last year it wasn't a clear cut (we all know it why and won't go back there) and this year it isn't either.

Oh and in one of my previous posts I defined inferior, as not one of the best, no way I said the 2nd best.
You keep coming up with your own, and very poor and biased, definitions and interpretations of things that I wrote. I told you yesterday, and I'll tell it again: stick to what I wrote, don't twist my words cause I don't appreciate it. You're not sure about something I wrote, ask before posting something erroneous. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Which is the "best" car is almost impossible to define.

For last season I would define it as the car that had the best of both best teams technical knowledge! :)

What da ya think? :D :p :

[ioan]

Probably you're mixing words "best" and "fastest". Best car is supposed to cross the finish line too...

So true, so true! :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

A car finishing 2nd in the constructors championship may be a case of an inferior car or of inferior drivers.
Or a car finishing 1st in the WCC may be a case of inferior drivers in a superior car :crazy: :p

Who's to know? :s mokin:

Or a car finishing 1st in the WCC may be a case of inferior drivers in a superior car :crazy: :p

Who's to know? :s mokin:

You mean like in 1998?
:s mokin:

[ioan]

You mean like in 1998?
:s mokin:

Something like that, or like the year before that or even the year before that. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Something like that, or like the year before that or even the year before that. ;)
Or the year after that, or after that, or after that, or after that, or after that, or after that... :laugh:

[ioan]

Or the year after that, or after that, or after that, or after that, or after that, or after that... :laugh:

And after that, and after that, and after that, and after that, and after that... Wait I lost count of what season we are talking exactly?! :laugh:

[PolePosition_1]

Pole, if not the Hungaroring punishment, McLaren would have accumulated more points than Ferrari. They were the best car last year.

Fair cop :)

[PolePosition_1]

A car finishing 2nd in the constructors championship may be a case of an inferior car or of inferior drivers.

Last year it wasn't a clear cut (we all know it why and won't go back there) and this year it isn't either.

Oh and in one of my previous posts I defined inferior, as not one of the best, no way I said the 2nd best.
You keep coming up with your own, and very poor and biased, definitions and interpretations of things that I wrote. I told you yesterday, and I'll tell it again: stick to what I wrote, don't twist my words cause I don't appreciate it. You're not sure about something I wrote, ask before posting something erroneous. :rolleyes:

Sorry Ioan :)

However I think you'll just have to learn to accept, words can be interpretted in many different ways by different people. Classic example is the use of word inferior. It can be made regarding 2nd best car, or the 10th best car. Its just how we interpret words.

So whilst I'll try my best to understand your interpretation, sometimes, or as seems to be the case, in a lot of cases, I will interpret what you say differently to what you are actually trying to say. I'll apologise in advance :) .

[ioan]

Sorry Ioan :)

However I think you'll just have to learn to accept

I think you should learn not to pick on others, and start understanding what others post before spouting venom.

Don't bother to answer anymore, for me it's case closed with you.

[PolePosition_1]

I think you should learn not to pick on others, and start understanding what others post before spouting venom.

Don't bother to answer anymore, for me it's case closed with you.

Ioan, I'm afraid your just going to have to learn to accept that words can be interrupted in many different ways. If you expect everyone to understand exactly what you mean when you don't even make yourself clear, and you class that as picking on you, you're going to have some issues, not sure on how old you are, but I hope you grow out of it very soon.

[ioan]

Ioan, I'm afraid your just going to have to learn to accept that words can be interrupted in many different ways.

I suppose you mean interpreted?!
And you talk about understanding words? :rolleyes:
Go get an efing dictionary.

[Knock-on]

I suppose you mean interpreted?!
And you talk about understanding words? :rolleyes:
Go get an efing dictionary.

Do you have to be so rude and play the victim all the time. PP has tried to be reasonable with you all the way through and you haven't returned the courtesy.

All he has said is that what you are saying may be interpreted differently to how you want it to be.

Please don't think this is "picking on you" or insulting you but merely trying to point out what is happening in an effort to get this thread back on track which is about Massa's attitude :)

[Dave B]

I suppose you mean interpreted?!
And you talk about understanding words? :rolleyes:
Go get an efing dictionary.

There are members here from all over the world and as such it's basic courtesy to cut people a little slack with their spelling in what might well be a foreign language to them.

Two "F"s in "effing", by the way. :p

[ioan]

There are members here from all over the world and as such it's basic courtesy to cut people a little slack with their spelling in what might well be a foreign language to them.

Two "F"s in "effing", by the way. :p

I'm one of those for whom English isn't first language, it doesn't mean that I patronize others telling them to learn to understand that there are several way to interpret words.

If he feels he's got the right to patronize me about words interpretation than he better start writing proper English. That's all.

Sorry for the one "f", I was a bit mad at that moment.

[wedge]

Interesting analysis here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7658733.stm


And he still leans far more heavily on his race engineer at Ferrari, Rob Smedley, than would be expected of a driver in contention for the world title.

At Monaco this year, for example, Smedley needed to convince Massa that the Ferrari would go through the tricky first corner, Sainte Devote, much faster than he was driving it.

"It took a bit of persuasion, to be honest," revealed Smedley. "I thought we were going to have an off-camera fight but you have to have that relationship.

"It's so tight and it's so close that if the driver doesn't have someone backing him up who he can trust 100% - and that is the key point, there has to be 100% trust - then he is out on his own.

"The sport is so competitive, it's just really not possible to do everything on your own. Monte Carlo was one example you guys (the media) know about. There are many more.

"We have a lot of telemetry and you can see the car underneath him will do something that he sometimes doesn't trust in and it's just a question of pushing him or forcing him to do it."

Despite this need to hold Massa's hand, though, Smedley says he is convinced his man has what it takes to overhaul Hamilton.


But, for Brawn, that would be unfair. Ask him where Massa ranks in F1's current crop and he said: "If he's not at the top, he's very close.

[ioan]

Really interesting.
It's been a long time that we've got to a point where engineers are more important than drivers. Or to put it another way, it's engineers who are decisive for the outcome not the drivers.

being in F1 mostly for the technology I can't say I'm displeased.

[Robinho]

there is no doubt that Massa is a confidence driver, perhaps more so than many others out there, and that when he is confident he is every bit as quick as anyone else.

if that confidence comes from a close relationship with his engineer then kudos for Ferrari for fostering the atmosphere Massa needs to be as quick as he can - it matters little why you are the quickest as long as it can be maintained, and whilst it might not be a conventional set up for drivers to rely so much on the support of the engineer if it works i wouldn't knock it

[wedge]

there is no doubt that Massa is a confidence driver, perhaps more so than many others out there, and that when he is confident he is every bit as quick as anyone else.

if that confidence comes from a close relationship with his engineer then kudos for Ferrari for fostering the atmosphere Massa needs to be as quick as he can - it matters little why you are the quickest as long as it can be maintained, and whilst it might not be a conventional set up for drivers to rely so much on the support of the engineer if it works i wouldn't knock it

Fair play to him, he's making the most of the current situation but Massa has been in F1 for how long?

At this point in his career he shouldn't be over reliant on his engineer.

I like my drivers to have big balls, moments like Hungary are too rare for my liking.

[PolePosition_1]

there is no doubt that Massa is a confidence driver, perhaps more so than many others out there, and that when he is confident he is every bit as quick as anyone else.

if that confidence comes from a close relationship with his engineer then kudos for Ferrari for fostering the atmosphere Massa needs to be as quick as he can - it matters little why you are the quickest as long as it can be maintained, and whilst it might not be a conventional set up for drivers to rely so much on the support of the engineer if it works i wouldn't knock it

Here here, I must say, I never thought even back in 2006 that I would feel how I currently feel regarding Ferrari today. They're always been an amazing team, with huge amount of talent, but today, they got a much more humane and sporting approach to racing, and I really respect that, and in many senses, I don't mind who wins the constructors this year, whilst I'd lean towards McLaren if I could choose, it wouldn't bother me if Ferrari won, as they've done a really good job with an approach of which I am for. However I would love to see Massa win the title.