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patnicholls
19th September 2008, 21:40
I wanted to raise a discussion about my least favourite part of motor racing – when the red flag appears. The part of any race which fills riders, teams and fans with worry.

In the past few events we've seen a different range of red flag rules applied across the championships, with some controversial results. It seems that to get rid of this controversy and get everything back in line that someone's rules somewhere need to change.

Let's start with first principles: why is a red flag thrown? Karting safety briefing #1 says that it's because a 'serious accident' has occurred, but out in the world of bike racing it's a little more complicated of course. We have a few different reasons: the worst being if a rider (or a marshal or spectator) is hurt and needs urgent attention, possibly lying on the track or close enough off it to be at risk from any passing riders having an accident. Second is if a bike is lying in a dangerous spot, posing a risk to those still in the race or on fire or such like and posing a risk to those at the side of the track. Another reason for throwing a red is debris on the track, or spilled oil from an engine blowup or something that can't be dealt with effectively by a safety car or double waved yellows [which I don't think exist in bike racing anyway]. The final one is the weather – usually rain when the bikes have gone out on dry tyres causing a serious safety risk, or like at Indy last week where the aftermath of a hurricane was the problem! In all cases, throwing a red flag is clearly a safety issue.

A couple of weeks ago at Donington in WSB we had a recent red flag rule out in force – Ruben Xaus crashed from third place after the red flag had come out in race one (for rain falling) as did Vitto Iannuzzo and Christian Zaiser on what was effectively the 'slowing down and returning to the pits' lap. The podium was delayed and – so the story goes – Xaus got fairly angry and refused to leave the podium [to be replaced by team-mate Biaggi] after being told he had been disqualified for not arriving back at the pits within five minutes of the red flag being thrown. Iannuzzo and Zaiser also suffered the same fate, each losing their first points of the year after tough seasons with lesser squads. A similar ruling prevented Robbin Harms and Russel Holland re-starting the tragic Supersport race at Brands Hatch after they crashed as the rain started to fall and were unable to take the restart due to the 'five minute' rule. To my knowledge it's not happened yet, but what happens if say it started to rain, you slow down [the race effectively having finished] and then your bike breaks down?

We've got a clear clash here. The 'five minute' rule is a rule which panders to TV schedules to keep things moving. A red flag is thrown with genuine safety concerns in all instances and time isn't a factor there. Are we in agreement that the five-minute rule is clearly nonsense? If a red flag is thrown after 2/3 distance then the race is finished, the result taken from the last complete lap by all riders before the flag (i.e back one lap) so anything that happens after that (i.e the slowing-down lap) isn't part of the race action and thus the result, surely?

Let's also handle the other aspect of red flags, an uglier point to debate. If your accident is the reason for the red flag, should you be in the results? In the Motegi 125cc race of 2005, Thomas Luthi crashed leaving his bike in the middle of the track – which was then hit by Sergio Gadea causing a smashed Aprilia, and ruined Honda and debris everywhere. The red flag was thrown and the results showed Luthi in second place from the lap before (and Gadea in his position). KTM – team of Luthi's title rival Mika Kallio – appealed the inclusion of Luthi in the results vigorously and were not successful but I believe a rule was later instigated in their favour removing riders who 'cause' a red flag to be removed from the results in MotoGP/250/125 events. (popular folklore goes that Kallio lost the title because of that initial decision but that's not really true – at Valencia Luthi did all he had to to take the title and little more, in additional to the five points Mika lost when Gabor passed him on the line at Qatar).

At the start of August Craig Jones lost his life in a tragic accident which we're probably all familiar with whilst dicing for the lead at Brands Hatch in the World Supersport race. (It is the lowest point of my time watching racing in fifteen years). Craig was classified in second position in the race. A week later at Knockhill, Shakey Byrne suffered a heavy fall whilst leading a British Superbike race and the red flag came out – it wasn't clear whether he fell on a bit of rain or oil – Scott Smart had been given a 'mechanical problem' board the lap before. Shakey was removed from the results of that race.

Again, there's inconsistency across the championships. However, this one is harder to resolve – what exactly counts as 'causing' a red flag? There's no clear-cut answer.

In the case of Thomas Luthi's accident, if everyone had missed his bike the race would have continued – and Luthi would either have been out or getting back on at the back of the pack. The circumstances of the other riders meant someone hit it – so is it his 'fault'? He did in that way benefit from the race being stopped, but it was only down to 'luck' that it was stopped. Craig Jones lost his life due to the worst kind of luck – someone couldn't avoid him. On his own, he'd have picked himself up from what happened – again it was just the circumstances of what else was going on on the racetrack. Shakey may well have crashed due to oil being down, which as the leader he was the first to come across – is that his 'fault?'

I'm not quite sure how to resolve this one but I think it's a good debating topic. For me, if you're taking a race back a lap because of a red flag, you should include all the people who crossed the line before the incident – it's not like they caused the incident on purpose after all. But likewise I can see the opposite side of the coin. It's a tricky one.

What are our thoughts?

ChrisS
20th September 2008, 10:25
Results after a red flag should be taken at the last completed a full lap from the leader and all other riders on the same lap as the leader. Simple as that, The riders that caused the red flag are also classified.

I can see the logic behind the "5 minute" rule. The rules say that after a red flag "riders must immediately slow down and return to the pit lane".Unlike Donington that the rain caused the red flag, what if a race is red flagged because of debris on the track? The race is at 2/3s so its a result and the track is safe except in that 1 turn with debris. So the riders start celebrating, doing wheelies, burnouts, showboading etc, breaking the rules that want them to return to the pits immediately. There is always a flip side.

I find MotoGP's 2/3s restart rule to be totally TV oriented. I think the rules are fine with the exception of that. I think the rules should be:
Red Flag in the first 3 laps - start of a new race, all riders are allowed to start, grid is the same as they qualified. if a start is not possible, race cancelled.
Red Flag after the first 3 laps and less the 2/3 distance - restart, only riders still in the race at red flag -1 can restart, grid is in the order they finished the red flag race. if a re-start is not possible, half the points are given.
Red Flag after 2/3 distance - race result.

Since we are talking red flags. I think this is relevant. What do you think of the restarted races final results rules?

MotoGP only uses the red flagged race results to determine the starting grid of the restart and the restart results as final results. SBK also uses the red flagged race results to determine the starting grid of the restart but also used aggregated results of the two races to determine the final result.

The good think about aggregated results is that it rewards the riders that were doing well in the first part of the race. The bad thing is that it created confusing situations with riders racing together on track but nowhere near each other on the time sheets.

BTW I think SBK is going to have flag to flag racing under changing weather conditions next season like MotoGP.

MrJan
20th September 2008, 13:20
Aggregate is good on paper but in practice I find that it proves too confusing, it's far better to just race properly, although obviously this disadvantages guys who held a large margin over the rider behind.

I pretty much agree with your approach to red flags Chris, with the exception of giving half points which I ind confusing and a little bit pointless.

From the blue book (regulations by the MSA who govern motorsport in the UK:

Any race stopped before the leader has completed 2 laps will be declared a 'no contest' (restart from original grid)[/*:m:3czhjrp0]
Any race stopped after the leader has completed more than 2 laps but less than 75% will be considered the first part of a 2 part race. Grid as positions. The result will be the order of finishing at the end of the restarted race, unless Championship regulations state otherwise.[/*:m:3czhjrp0]
Any race stopped after the leader has completed 75% will be considered to have finished. The result will be the order of crossing the line one lap before the first showing of a red flag.[/*:m:3czhjrp0]

Okay so it's national regs and for the wrong sport but seems to be the right way of doing things.

ArmchairBikeFan
23rd September 2008, 09:28
If you crash on the red flag lap, you were under racing conditions at the time. It doesn't matter that the official results are taken from a lap earlier. If you crash under racing conditions, you shouldn't be able to keep your place. That's completely unfair on riders who didn't crash. If you break down on the red flag and still get to restart, that's completely unfair on teams who built a reliable bike.

The way I see it, everybody who's still up and running, and gets back to the pits after the red flag, should be in the results. Everybody who's crashed shouldn't be.

The race did not stop at the end of the previous lap, it stopped when the red flag came out. Going back to the race positions one lap earlier is just a technicality because it's the last lap where everyone has crossed the line and therefore the last lap that you have proper results for.

NinjaMaster
23rd September 2008, 12:47
If you crash on the red flag lap, you were under racing conditions at the time. It doesn't matter that the official results are taken from a lap earlier. If you crash under racing conditions, you shouldn't be able to keep your place. That's completely unfair on riders who didn't crash. If you break down on the red flag and still get to restart, that's completely unfair on teams who built a reliable bike.

The way I see it, everybody who's still up and running, and gets back to the pits after the red flag, should be in the results. Everybody who's crashed shouldn't be.

The race did not stop at the end of the previous lap, it stopped when the red flag came out. Going back to the race positions one lap earlier is just a technicality because it's the last lap where everyone has crossed the line and therefore the last lap that you have proper results for.
So what you're saying is all those who crash out on someone else's oil from an engine blowup shouldn't be able to join the restart? Or if they're caught out when they're the first to come across a dump of rain on the circuit?

MrJan
23rd September 2008, 13:14
I don't agree ABF because it creates a very liquid notion of what the result actually is. For example it's possible that someone might fall off just as the red flag is about to be shown and it creates a very grey area whereas saying the last completed lap gives a solid time to work with. Also it would be difficult dealing with someone overtaking.

Basically it'd be a logistical nightmare and no one would know what was going on.

ArmchairBikeFan
23rd September 2008, 20:53
I don't agree ABF because it creates a very liquid notion of what the result actually is. For example it's possible that someone might fall off just as the red flag is about to be shown and it creates a very grey area whereas saying the last completed lap gives a solid time to work with. Also it would be difficult dealing with someone overtaking.

Basically it'd be a logistical nightmare and no one would know what was going on.

Eh? I'm saying that's what already happens, I'm not talking about changing anything! It's already the case that if you fall off on the red flag lap you're not classified.

Anyway, yes I'm saying that if you fall off on oil you're screwed. Otherwise it penalizes everyone who ran over the same oil and stayed on the bike.

MrJan
23rd September 2008, 22:27
Eh? I'm saying that's what already happens, I'm not talking about changing anything! It's already the case that if you fall off on the red flag lap you're not classified.

Anyway, yes I'm saying that if you fall off on oil you're screwed. Otherwise it penalizes everyone who ran over the same oil and stayed on the bike.

Oh right, just misunderstood your post :) Although I'm not sure that it works like that, seem to remember something in F1 at Brazil when Alonso crashed at the last corner but I think he was still classified. It's the right way to do things really because if the fag is thrown because of oil then it could be a new development which the whole field hasn't necessarily gone through. By going back to the last completed lap then it allows everyone to be on a level playing field :)