Massa cutting chicane whilst leading Hamilton.

[yodasarmpit]

I think it was around lap 40, we saw Lewis catching Massa, however in order to retain the lead Massa cut the chicane.

According to the new revised/clarified rules surely Massa should have backed off.

I need to see it again, but at the time it really looked like Massa gained a big advantage.

[dwf1]

that is true, HERE WE GO AGAIN!!

[yodasarmpit]

Just playing devils advocate tbh. :)

[BDunnell]

This is one reason why the 'new rule' is so unnecessary and impossible to enforce fairly. You cannot do anything if no change of position occurs. Still, Massa fell foul of it earlier on for no reason, so I suppose things evened themselves out.

[truefan72]

trust me if it was a mclaren that cut the chicane, the would have been called in. LH got a penalty for cutting the chicane in France while leading from the guy behind and was assesed an unfair advantage.

he had already passed the car and was closing in on the car in fromt of him when he got onto the chicane.So they should hand out a similar penalty right?

...but I'm sure nothing will happen

[BDunnell]

trust me if it was a mclaren that cut the chicane, the would have been called in.

I simply don't accept that.

[markabilly]

No, if LH wins his appeal and the spa penalty not upheld, then looks like the WDC is in the bag for LH, unless he loses his cool like last year.

VERY BAD for TV revenue and all, so Bernie will ask MaX not to let that happen.....

[BDunnell]

No, if LH wins his appeal and the spa penalty not upheld, then looks like the WDC is in the bag for LH, unless he loses his cool like last year.

I very much doubt this will happen, so I think the conspiracy theories have to wait for another day, when they will no doubt return.

[Tonieke]

This is one reason why the 'new rule' is so unnecessary and impossible to enforce fairly. You cannot do anything if no change of position occurs. Still, Massa fell foul of it earlier on for no reason, so I suppose things evened themselves out.

FIA is to blame for the mess they created about this whole thing...It is still not clear to teams what is ok and what is not..look at massa..earlier in the race he let by again the car behind him after cutting a chicane..and when Lewis was behind him he did not ! weird !

[gloomyDAY]

Enough of this rubbish, yes?

Let the professionals do their job and let them race.

[BTCC Fan#1]

Enough of this rubbish, yes?

Let the professionals do their job and let them race.

I have to agree. :up: The amount of time the commentators spent talking about this, virtually every time anyone was passed at one of the chicanes, was ridiculous.

[markabilly]

No, if LH wins his appeal and the spa penalty not upheld, then looks like the WDC is in the bag for LH, unless he loses his cool like last year.

VERY BAD for TV revenue and all, so Bernie will ask MaX not to let that happen.....
What I meant was that there will be no penalty on Massa cause the spa deal and a massa penalty...combined.....would be bad for keeping fans interested

[markabilly]

Enough of this rubbish, yes?

Let the professionals do their job and let them race.


I have to agree. :up: The amount of time the commentators spent talking about this, virtually every time anyone was passed at one of the chicanes, was ridiculous.


NO WAY, stuff like this is what generates controversy and makes fans get fired up and watch races and so forth......face it, in the absence of such crud, the races are too boring to keep the interest up and revenues high

Sad though as I am about that... :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

NO WAY, stuff like this is what generates controversy and makes fans get fired up and watch races and so forth......face it, in the absence of such crud, the races are too boring to keep the interest up and revenues high

Sad though as I am about that... :rolleyes:

Why do you keep watching, then? There have always been good and bad F1 races. Today's was excellent.

[gloomyDAY]

Today was great. I'm not sure why anyone is bitching.

Terrific race, a lot of passing, and great results.
Then I come on here and people are crying. What gives?

[dwf1]

Today was great. I'm not sure why anyone is bitching.

Terrific race, a lot of passing, and great results.
Then I come on here and people are crying. What gives?

agreed

[Viktory]

Today's race was amazing. One of the best I've seen for ages. Very happy for Vettel also, and for Massa closing the gap in the championship :up:

[BDunnell]

Today's race was amazing. One of the best I've seen for ages.

Absolutely. :up:

[markabilly]

Why do you keep watching, then? There have always been good and bad F1 races. Today's was excellent.

Bad habit from the 1964 and on...hard to break.....but in the last few years i have gone to recording the race, that way I can fast forward and watch the five minutes of the start, the pitstops and the finish while fast forwarding thro the rest.

Today instead of videotaping I watched because of the rain, otherwise :dozey: :s nore:

And for those thinking best race in ages, what??????Let us see, how many passes for the lead in this race?? None
Big Question: Would it rain hard.....no
Would david Hobbes wake up enough to say something almost intelligent or Funny.......no, but "I do remember when I was racing sixty years ago, it was terrible to drive in the rain around here....TERRIBLE.......
Would Seb V do something stupid and run off track or do a Seb. B and stall out.......(sad because my gut tells me that with Seb B there was a chance for a Hamberger "one-two finish").......no

And the big moment of suspense at the end, could KIMI get the record??
"YES, HE DID IT"(to quote speed tv) Last lap fastest lap of the race!!!!!Again. "WOW."

[ioan]

Still, Massa fell foul of it earlier on for no reason, so I suppose things evened themselves out.

Twice.

[ioan]

trust me if it was a mclaren that cut the chicane, the would have been called in.

Lewy did it today. I might have missed when he got a penalty though?
I also didn't see the penalties for his very dangerous driving!

So, can you stop talking rubbish now?

[yodasarmpit]

Lewy did it today. I might have missed when he got a penalty though?
I also didn't see the penalties for his very dangerous driving!

So, can you stop talking rubbish now?
Don't worry, you have already used up the forum quota for talking crap, there's none left for anyone else.

[BDunnell]

Lewy did it today. I might have missed when he got a penalty though?
I also didn't see the penalties for his very dangerous driving!

You don't win a prize for posting the same thing in the highest number of threads, you know.

[dwf1]

FIA equals Ferrari International Assistance.

[jens]

So many drivers cut the chicane, so that I wouldn't even bother to select out one case. Everyone should be penalized. :p :

[BDunnell]

So many drivers cut the chicane, so that I wouldn't even bother to select out one case. Everyone should be penalized. :p :

Which is the only fair method, as the result ends up the same.

[truefan72]

Which is the only fair method, as the result ends up the same.

LOL I suppose.

[truefan72]

Lewy did it today. I might have missed when he got a penalty though?
I also didn't see the penalties for his very dangerous driving!

So, can you stop talking rubbish now?

so when did LH cut the chicane when a driver was closing in on him with less than 2 seconds where the cutting the chicane brought that gap up again.

so lets stick to the topic and save the rhetoric for the other thread.

[truefan72]

Lewy did it today. I might have missed when he got a penalty though?
I also didn't see the penalties for his very dangerous driving!

So, can you stop talking rubbish now?

so when did LH cut the chicane when a driver was closing in on him with less than 2 seconds where the cutting the chicane brought that gap up again.

so lets stick to the topic and save the rhetoric for the other thread.

[Daniel]

trust me if it was a mclaren that cut the chicane, the would have been called in. LH got a penalty for cutting the chicane in France while leading from the guy behind and was assesed an unfair advantage.

he had already passed the car and was closing in on the car in fromt of him when he got onto the chicane.So they should hand out a similar penalty right?

...but I'm sure nothing will happen

If a McLaren had done it Max would have gone over to the McLaren pit wall and had an S&M session with Ron. You can't say I'm wrong because it never happened so you've got no proof lolz

[truefan72]

If a McLaren had done it Max would have gone over to the McLaren pit wall and had an S&M session with Max. You can't say I'm wrong because it never happened so you've got no proof lolz

I'm not sure what you are talking about there

[ioan]

You don't win a prize for posting the same thing in the highest number of threads, you know.

And what do you win for attacking me in every thread? :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I'm not sure what you are talking about there

I bet he had the same reaction to your post when he read it.

[BDunnell]

And what do you win for attacking me in every thread? :rolleyes:

I'm not attacking you, merely disagreeing vehemently with your opinions and, more importantly, the motivation and reasoning behind them.

[ioan]

So many drivers cut the chicane, so that I wouldn't even bother to select out one case. Everyone should be penalized. :p :

Yeah, add 25 seconds to their final times, to all of them. This should teach them to behave next time! :p :

[ioan]

I'm not attacking you, merely disagreeing vehemently with your opinions and, more importantly, the motivation and reasoning behind them.

Don't be a hypocrite, and stop talking rubbish about me. Got it?! :mad:

[nigelred5]

Today was great. I'm not sure why anyone is bitching.

Terrific race, a lot of passing, and great results.
Then I come on here and people are crying. What gives?

They are McLaren Fans. ;)


Great day for Minardi! uh, I mean STR! It couldn't have been scripted and better. Massa missed out a perfect opportunity to take the championship lead.

[BDunnell]

They are McLaren Fans. ;)

I would hope that most McLaren 'fans' would acknowledge that we saw a brilliant race, no matter what.

[Daniel]

They are McLaren Fans. ;)


Great day for Minardi! uh, I mean STR! It couldn't have been scripted and better. Massa missed out a perfect opportunity to take the championship lead.

Yeah but Vettel's car had an FIArrari engine in it! OMFG the race was fixed!

[BDunnell]

Yeah but Vettel's car had an FIArrari engine in it! OMFG the race was fixed!

Well, there are those in F1 who don't think the STR car should be in the championship because of being an old RBR chassis. I say 'who cares?'!

[Daniel]

Well, there are those in F1 who don't think the STR car should be in the championship because of being an old RBR chassis. I say 'who cares?'!
Agreed. I don't really see how the chassis really makes a difference from a marketing point of view. You could argue that technology from the engine and transmission feeds back to your road car at some stage but I'd love to see the day where we're debating whether the carbon fibre monocoque in the new Civic Type R is better than that in a Corrolla :) Millions will disagree with me but I say give them all one chassis. My other big idea is to make F1 cars into something that looks more like an LMP1 car. To me it's inconsequential whether the wheels are out there in the air or not and with a body over the wheels you can race wheel to wheel too! :)

[Big Ben]

trust me if it was a mclaren that cut the chicane, the would have been called in. LH got a penalty for cutting the chicane in France while leading from the guy behind and was assesed an unfair advantage.

he had already passed the car and was closing in on the car in fromt of him when he got onto the chicane.So they should hand out a similar penalty right?

...but I'm sure nothing will happen

stop this crap. If they were really that biased they could have done something about Hamilton pushing Glock off track when there was plenty of space or when he left no room for webber on the straight...

[Mickey T]

yep, and massa twice had to redress positional advantages because, especially in the second chicane, he had all four wheels on the wrong side of the face of the kerb, which is technically cutting the corner.

in the laws of the game, that needed redressing, so he redressed it, ioan, so that's exactly how it was supposed to go.

[aryan]

It was an amazing race. No doubt about that.

The point is thought, that it is an absolutely rubbish and unenforcable rule. No doubt about that either.

Massa having to let Rosberg pass him again, was the lowest point a steward can get.

[leopard]

The chicane has quite disturbing sleeping policeman, which indeed gave disadvantage on suspension system, shake up electronic or any fragile device, a not nice part to drive over. The contrary fact for the benefit from being in touch with sleeping cheetah. :)

[Knock-on]

Good race.

I thought that Massa having to give a position back was anal but the FIA are trying to make it look like a level playing field retrospectivly.

As for Massa cutting the chicane ahead of Lewis, I didn't see anything wrong with it but I didn't see anything wrong with Lewis giving the place back to Kimi :D

Of course, if there would have been gravel or a wall there, Massa would probably have lost the place and possibly been out of the race but I've never subscribed to this arguement. You race what is there.

[ShiftingGears]

This is the problem with handing out a penalty as contentious as we saw with Spa. What would usually be entrusted to the common sense of the driver now has to be microanalysed by the stewards when there was really nothing wrong with it in the first place.

Could you imagine the FIA reinforcing the "no team orders" rule as anally as they've done with the chicane-cutting?

[PolePosition_1]

I think it was around lap 40, we saw Lewis catching Massa, however in order to retain the lead Massa cut the chicane.

According to the new revised/clarified rules surely Massa should have backed off.

I need to see it again, but at the time it really looked like Massa gained a big advantage.

My understanding is that SAVING a place by cutting a chicane is allowed, if you look at other incidents in the race and in GP2, plus the analysis of 2006 Hungary.

That said, Hamilton was penalised by saving a place in France - so who knows what the rules are :( .

[Knock-on]

My understanding is that SAVING a place by cutting a chicane is allowed, if you look at other incidents in the race and in GP2, plus the analysis of 2006 Hungary.

That said, Hamilton was penalised by saving a place in France - so who knows what the rules are :( .

I'm afraid it depends on who commits the "transgression".

If it's Lewis, it seems to be punished and then "clarification" made up afterwards.

I just wish they just let the drivers get on with it until there's something that obviously needs addressing.

People will bring up Spa and say that it needed addressing because of a "perceived" advantage but really, what was the point. It just served to further fracture the sport and detract from what was a superb race with someone winning that didn't deserve to.

[schmenke]

...Massa having to let Rosberg pass him again, was the lowest point a steward can get.

If the regulations were applied consistent to Hamilton's incident in Spa, Massa should have received a drive-through penalty :mark: .

[Hawkmoon]

My understanding is that SAVING a place by cutting a chicane is allowed, if you look at other incidents in the race and in GP2, plus the analysis of 2006 Hungary.

That said, Hamilton was penalised by saving a place in France - so who knows what the rules are :( .

No that's wrong.

You can't an advantage, either by gaining or maintaining a place, by cutting a corner. Massa wasn't penalised because Hamilton wasn't trying to pass him at the time.

Hamilton was penalised for gaining a place in France, not saving one.

This situation is only a problem because they've gone and put tarmac runoff areas all over the circuits. If there were still gravel traps or grass then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Therefore I advocate that they line the entireity of each and every circuit with gravel. That teach these chicane cutting hooligans a lesson! :mad: ;)

[tinchote]

This situation is only a problem because they've gone and put tarmac runoff areas all over the circuits. If there were still gravel traps or grass then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Therefore I advocate that they line the entireity of each and every circuit with gravel. That teach these chicane cutting hooligans a lesson! :mad: ;)

:laugh:

That could be tricky, because if they are going to risk getting trapped in the gravel for the smallest mistake, drivers would have to think twice before risking a pass (or defending, for that matter).

[wmcot]

All the "chicane cutting" I saw was more like just going over the kerbs. Nobody cut a chicane as far off track as Lewis did at Spa, so I saw no problem. Those that missed chicanes or were forced into the escape road (Webber come to mind) gave the place back with no controversy.

It was the commentators that were looking at every driver going over the kerbs a bit deeply and saying, "he cut the chicane!" Hobbs even complained when Vettel cut across the kerbs a bit too much when he was running alone, far in front of the field.

In general, everyone was on their best behavior as far as chicane cutting was concerned.

[leopard]

Actually Webber needn't have surrendered the place back, he was forced, no better options left but driving over the chicane. He had no disadvantage from driving in a zigzag. He's just like commentators with fresh memory in mind to look at every such move potentially give the driver some penalty, therefore he'd better give the position back.

[PolePosition_1]

No that's wrong.

You can't an advantage, either by gaining or maintaining a place, by cutting a corner. Massa wasn't penalised because Hamilton wasn't trying to pass him at the time.

Hamilton was penalised for gaining a place in France, not saving one.

This situation is only a problem because they've gone and put tarmac runoff areas all over the circuits. If there were still gravel traps or grass then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Therefore I advocate that they line the entireity of each and every circuit with gravel. That teach these chicane cutting hooligans a lesson! :mad: ;)


I like how you see the rules, as I think thats the best and fairest way.

But in Hungary 2006, Schumacher cut a chicane TWICE saving a position on both occassions. When questioned why no penalty was given, the Stewards said that saving a position was allowed.

[schmenke]

:laugh:

That could be tricky, because if they are going to risk getting trapped in the gravel for the smallest mistake, drivers would have to think twice before risking a pass (or defending, for that matter).

That's part of racing IMO :mark:

[schmenke]

...It was the commentators that were looking at every driver going over the kerbs a bit deeply and saying, "he cut the chicane!" Hobbs even complained when Vettel cut across the kerbs a bit too much when he was running alone, far in front of the field.....

I believe the commentators also commented (well, what else would they do...? :mark: ) on the fact that several drivers were cutting with all four wheels on the curb. How does one distinguish between "riding the curbs" and "cutting the chicane"?

[ShiftingGears]

I thought it was very true when Martin Brundle referred to chicanes in a pro-safety era "Like driving an imaginary corner". - The circuits are just becoming more and more like car parks with painted lines, and less like racing circuits where the drivers actually lose a significant amount of time, or crash, when they drive off the circuit. See Spa one week ago, where Kimi and Lewis used the tarmac runoff as a substitute for actually staying on the racetrack.

Not what I want to see.

[wmcot]

How about if we get rid of chicanes entirely? Just long straights and sharp corners lined with grass/gravel/armco.

[Hawkmoon]

I like how you see the rules, as I think thats the best and fairest way.

But in Hungary 2006, Schumacher cut a chicane TWICE saving a position on both occassions. When questioned why no penalty was given, the Stewards said that saving a position was allowed.

It's not just how I see it, it's what's supposed to happen. If it's not a hard and fast rule then it's a long established convention.

[PolePosition_1]

It's not just how I see it, it's what's supposed to happen. If it's not a hard and fast rule then it's a long established convention.

I don't quite understand what you mean by that?

[Hawkmoon]

I don't quite understand what you mean by that?

I'm not the one suggesting that an advantage can be gained by either taking or saving a place. As far as I know it's in the sporting regulations. If it isn't then it's a widely understood convention that's been in place since I started watching Grand Prix racing in the '80's.

So it's not how I see the rules, it's how the rules are. Whether they are followed is of course another matter.

[ShiftingGears]

That's part of racing IMO :mark:

I completely agree.