No Surfers = No Aussie Vineyards $$$

[MDS]

Craig Gore told Gold Coast that if there isn't a Surfer's Paradise race next year he'll pull the funding of PKV, which Jimmy Vasser has said is half of the team's funding.

I have made it very clear to IRL (Indy Racing League) that I would no longer participate in the series if they do not resolve the schedule with the Queensland Government.
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/09/09/16048_gold-coast-news.html

It's a great race. A race that funds half of one of the strongest teams and most talented driver in the IRL. Tony George needs to make this work.

[downtowndeco]

Indy is the only race that TG needs to bend over backwards to save. If a team is a one trick pony depending on a race that's not even staged in this country so be it.

I'd hate to see the team fold. But the race just isn't that important in the scheme of things.

[nanders]

Craig Gore told Gold Coast that if there isn't a Surfer's Paradise race next year he'll pull the funding of PKV, which Jimmy Vasser has said is half of the team's funding.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/09/09/16048_gold-coast-news.html

It's a great race. A race that funds half of one of the strongest teams and most talented driver in the IRL. Tony George needs to make this work.

I'm glad you bring this up, because there are other things that have been bubbling the last few weeks that makes me think there is something bigger afoot and Surfers is the linchpin.

We all know by now that Gore pours money into Kalkhoven's team for Australian wine sponsorship, and he's threatening to pull out if the race date is not on the traditional date. Then last week on the F1 broadcast it was mentioned that Bernie wants back into Long Beach. So let connect the dots on this.

Gore funds Kalkhoven's team. Kalkhoven is an Australian that owns part of the Long Beach race. Kalkhovens partner in Long Beach doesn't like Tony George much. Bernie wants Long Beach.

Isn't it something that Bernie get's in the mix while 2 preimo CART, oh I mean, IndyCar races are in jeopardy?

Could Long Beach fall if Surfers doesn't get settled? I have ask Curt Cavin this twice and he hasn't answered while answering another question. I'm thinking something's up cause Cavin says he has Tony's ear.

-----

From his blog http://blogs.indystar.com/racingexpert/

Question: With the ICS playing hardball with Australia over it's date, shouldn't it be remembered that Kalkhoven, an Australian team owner, is part owner in Long Beach, and he might entertain F1 there if TG messes with Surfers? Isn't Surfers really "too big" to lose no matter what date it falls on? (Niles, Topeka, Kan.)

Answer: I see both sides on this one. The IRL and its teams need to make sure it's not a financial bath to travel to Australia, and let me tell you, it's very expensive. Plane tickets alone are more than $2,000, and the room options are $350 a night. Start doing the math and you'll quickly see that the $60,000 that the IRL says each team will receive doesn't go very far when you're talking about a minimum of 15 staffers per car. I easily see $50,000 in expenses and that doesn't count the extreme cost of flying a driver and the engineers business class because that's what their contracts call for. I'm told business class is $25,000, so again, do the math. Remember, too, that most IndyCar Series teams will get very little bang for their U.S.-based sponsor's buck being in a different time zone like that. Anyway, it adds up to being important to get the right deal from the promoter. I can understand why it's not the easiest of negotiations.

----

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

[nanders]

Indy is the only race that TG needs to bend over backwards to save. If a team is a one trick pony depending on a race that's not even staged in this country so be it.

I'd hate to see the team fold. But the race just isn't that important in the scheme of things.

Let's see .... A1GP and their new Ferrari engine and cool ass looking car at Surfers and the real deal, F1 at Long Beach! I'm thinking it would be a move of extreme idiocy. It would take them years to overcome such a PR blunder! It could be the move the finally cuts the ephemeral artery.

When teams are having to fight NASCAR for sponsorship they need to keep that international door open.

[downtowndeco]

Let's see .... A1GP and their new Ferrari engine and cool ass looking car at Surfers and the real deal, F1 at Long Beach! I'm thinking it would be a move of extreme idiocy. It would take them years to overcome such a PR blunder! It could be the move the finally cuts the ephemeral artery.

When teams are having to fight NASCAR for sponsorship they need to keep that international door open.


A blunder? Let's see. The race has been getting CC, what. .02 ratings? No one here really knows about it. The IRL is not going to make the same mistake CC made, to try be F1 lite and chase races around the world.
CC went BK twice trying to do that.

If A1GP wants it I say let them have it. The crowds have mainly been showing up to see the Super Cars any way.

[nanders]

Being that you both ignored this question I'll post it again:

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

[call_me_andrew]

I recall someone here said that Aussie Vinyards doesn't care about the race at Surfer's becasue they're more interested in advertising their product to Americans.

Does that still stand?

[downtowndeco]

Being that you both ignored this question I'll post it again:

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

That's quite a stretch IMO. And the IRL isn't going to be held hostage by one (or two) races that get ratings .4 or less.

[downtowndeco]

Just for the sake of accuracy, that's CC only once. Sometimes the hyperbole gets a little out of hand. ;)


A reasonable argument can be made for the rest of your points.


CART went BK. CCWS well, what would you call it? Out of business? Liquidated? The bottom line is the doors closed fast, they turned out the lights and had an auction. And a big part of why it happened (IMO) was because they were chasing races around the world rather than concentrating on their home base. Whether it was exactly a bankruptcy or not it was hardly a success story.

I get your point though. Cheers.

[DBell]

I recall someone here said that Aussie Vinyards doesn't care about the race at Surfer's because they're more interested in advertising their product to Americans.

Does that still stand?

I don't know when or who said this, but does that make any sense to you?


Your willing to spend X millions of dollars because of excellent exposure in your domestic market and modest exposure in a new market, then the domestic part goes away. Then you decide the value is no longer worth the money being spent, so you look in other directions. I think it's that simple.

Besides, if all they wanted was exposure in the US, then they would be sponsoring Ambrose in Cup.

[DanicaFan]

I hate to see a race go but if the cost is that much, its not good. The only reason they are going there this year is to fullfil obligations.

They can get another sponsor if they pull out. I wouldnt worry to much about that. And I also wouldnt call that much of a threat to pull out. I mean, where are they going to go when it comes to open wheel racing?? :confused:
The only viable option would be F1 and thats not a big deal to the American audience. F1 isnt big over here. The IRL will be just fine no matter what the decision. :)

[DBell]

That's quite a stretch IMO. And the IRL isn't going to be held hostage by one (or two) races that get ratings .4 or less.

If LB is an ABC race next year, I'll bet it's over 1.0. There is a lot of arguments for and against the Surfers race, but future ratings are an unknown now that we are into the era of Versus. I'm thinking .4 or less is going to be the norm on the V.

[DBell]

Being that you both ignored this question I'll post it again:

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

No, not to me. I don't think a lot of the long time IRL fans would care much about losing street races though.

[DanicaFan]

No, not to me. I don't think a lot of the long time IRL fans would care much about losing street races though.

You are right there, the IRL was founded on oval racing. :D

[MDS]

They can get another sponsor if they pull out. I wouldnt worry to much about that.

So when was the last time a $6 million sponsor (Which is what I hear Aussie brings to KVRT) came into the IRL? I can't really think of one? Formula Dream? How long is is that going to hang around without Super Aguri?

I'm hopeful CDW and Red Bull will come into the sport in the next couple of months, but the only real primary sponsors that have come into the IRL in the last two years is McDonalds, Aussie Vineyards, PDVSA, Zline Designs and maybe Sangari.

The IRL is not in the position to tell sponsors to go to hell. It sounds like the government is willing to come up with additional money, they're just apart on the dates.


The only viable option would be F1 and thats not a big deal to the American audience. F1 isnt big over here. The IRL will be just fine no matter what the decision. :)

If F-1 isn't a big deal then why was the USGP one of the best well attended on the circuit? Trust me, if F-1 could get Long Beach away from the IRL it would be a good thing for F-1 and Long Beach and a bad thing for the IRL.

[garyshell]

Being that you both ignored this question I'll post it again:

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

That assumes that the two are inexorably linked. I think that initial premise is false.

Gary

[nanders]

That's quite a stretch IMO. And the IRL isn't going to be held hostage by one (or two) races that get ratings .4 or less.

"That's quite a stretch IMO."

So you get all of it, right? I mean "Gore funds Kalkhoven's team. Kalkhoven is an Australian that owns part of the Long Beach race. Sponsor will leave Kalkhoven because of no Surfers. Kalkhovens partner in Long Beach doesn't like Tony George much. Kalkhoven could be upset because no Surfers means lower team budget. Bernie wants Long Beach."? I'm pretty sure this chain of events could play out, so thinking that the ICS could loose Long Beach over such a thing isn't a very big stretch, and if Tony isn't thinking about it, it could spell trouble.

So after the .4 rating they'll get on all the VS races next season ... hell they can just dump all their races. Who needs a league ... "we have Indy."

When we see how many teams actually answer the bell next season, and then remembering the teams and races that could have been salvaged .... I'm thinking by the time next season is over ... the IRL will be glad to have .4 ratings.

But you're right about Surfers .4 for this year, being it's on ESPN Classic. OMG

Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

[nanders]

That assumes that the two are inexorably linked. I think that initial premise is false.

Gary

You know, I rarely disagree with you. :)

[garyshell]

You know, I rarely disagree with you. :)


I know, I do agree with you most of the time. And I follow the logic in your message. But I don't think that Gore and Keven are close enough for the result you anticipate. Yes, Kevin is not going to be happy. But I think he has developed a relationship with Tony that will transcend his disappointment. Especially if Tony helps him find a replacement sponsor. And I think that if Gore pulls out, Tony will bend over backward to help find a replacement.

Plus I can't see Kevin and his partners being stupid enough to get into the quagmire that Bernie represents. Where the hell would they come up with the sanctioning fee for an F1 effort? And then there is the matter of all the infrastructure that the Bernie Circus is going to DEMAND. No, sorry, I see F1 as a total non-starter at Long Beach. They might talk about it as a bargaining strategy with ICS, but I don't believe it for one second. As much as the folks in Long Beach loved it when F1 was there years ago, the F1 landscape has changed dramatically since then. With the huge dollar amounts of extortion they have extracted from governments around the world, if any politician even hinted at some participation in an F1 effort, it would be the political third rail suicide.

Gary

[nanders]

I know, I do agree with you most of the time. And I follow the logic in your message. But I don't think that Gore and Keven are close enough for the result you anticipate. Yes, Kevin is not going to be happy. But I think he has developed a relationship with Tony that will transcend his disappointment. Especially if Tony helps him find a replacement sponsor. And I think that if Gore pulls out, Tony will bend over backward to help find a replacement.

Plus I can't see Kevin and his partners being stupid enough to get into the quagmire that Bernie represents. Where the hell would they come up with the sanctioning fee for an F1 effort? And then there is the matter of all the infrastructure that the Bernie Circus is going to DEMAND. No, sorry, I see F1 as a total non-starter at Long Beach. They might talk about it as a bargaining strategy with ICS, but I don't believe it for one second. As much as the folks in Long Beach loved it when F1 was there years ago, the F1 landscape has changed dramatically since then. With the huge dollar amounts of extortion they have extracted from governments around the world, if any politician even hinted at some participation in an F1 effort, it would be the political third rail suicide.

Gary

Damn, this makes sense. I still hope they keep Surfers, I'd like to go before I die.

[Rex Monaco]

I've seen the arguments about why F1 won't come to LB. But why not?

F1 tickets would cost much more than IRL tickets, maybe even twice as much. And the best stands would be sold out days after being made available.

Other than Montreal, this would be the only opportunity for North American race fans to see an F1 event. So there would be much more out of town interest for this race than for the IRL event.

And though I may be slightly biased on this, there is no argument that Southern California is a much better tourist destination than Indianapolis.

The local entertainment crowd would definitely be drawn to a European racing series, even if most of them wouldn't know the difference between turbo-charged or normally aspriated.

The Europeans would not only be able to find a suitable place for a good meal in town, there would be some very good parties thrown on their behalf as well.

Nearly 1/2 of all the Ferrari's sold in the US, would be paying a $100.00+ to park in downtown Long Beach.

The fish bowl would likely be filled with mega yachts from as far away as Seattle, Washington and those fees could easily be raised by the city to accomodate them.

And Toyota sponsors the race and they actually race in Formula One.

And the ABC TV ratings (any other channel would be a huge mistake) could very likely surpass the Daytona 500. Something that not even the Indy 500 will be doing anytime soon.

It's really a no brainer for the organizer and the city.

The International exposure for the largest port city in the United States, would be priceless.

[Rex Monaco]

Oh, and then the IRL could then add Fontana and the local fans would be able to see them in their prefered environment as well.

[mike15]

Indy is the only race that TG needs to bend over backwards to save. If a team is a one trick pony depending on a race that's not even staged in this country so be it.

I'd hate to see the team fold. But the race just isn't that important in the scheme of things.

You just stated the problem with the ICS.
Indy is the only race that matters.

[DBell]

$$$ Pure and simple. There is no way a promoter could break even, much less make a dime, paying Bernie's prices. And that's at any price you care to charge for tickets (that anyone would pay). Oh, and where are you gonna build the required pit garages? It's a non starter. Ain't going to happen.

A couple of years ago when I lived in OC, I remember an article where the guy that runs LB said they would have to charge around $400.00 a ticket to maybe break even if F1 raced there. And that was at the rate TG was thought to be paying at that time , not the current asking price.

[garyshell]

The International exposure for the largest port city in the United States, would be priceless.


Priceless? Yeah, right. Have you seen the prices that Bernie charges as a santioning fee? Priceless? Have you seen the sorts of infrastructure demands that F1 makes trackside? Priceless?

Pass the bowl bud, I want some of what you're smokin'. :s mokin:

Gary

[garyshell]

You just stated the problem with the ICS.
Indy is the only race that matters.

It is the only one that matters to Madison Ave. That has ALWAYS been the case, even before the split, dating back to when sponsor money became the driving force with the teams. And as long as Madison Ave. feels that way it is the only race that MUST remain on the schedule. All other races are, in effect, expendable. The promoters all know this and have for a very long time.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Oh, and where are you gonna build the required pit garages?

That's the easy part. Eliminate Rainbow Lagoon Park. Only the homeless and the tourists use it. The downtown Long Beach locals prefer Shoreline Park.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=335+e.+shoreline+dr,+long+beach,+ca&sll=33.762806,-118.187554&sspn=0.001325,0.002832&ie=UTF8&ll=33.764539,-118.187399&spn=0.010596,0.022659&z=16

[Rex Monaco]

Have you seen the prices that Bernie charges as a santioning fee?

Have you seen how many containers leave the Port of Long Beach? Which is the nations second busiest port. The first being it's next door neighbor, The Port of Los Angeles.

If there is no race in Long Beach, it won't be because Indianaoplis, Indiana has more money than Long Beach, Califonia.

[Rex Monaco]

There is no way a promoter could break even, much less make a dime, paying Bernie's prices.

Where there is a will, there is always a way.

Panasonic's US headquarter is in Long Beach, and they are a sponsor on Toyota's F1 car.

Epson also has their US headquarters in Long Beach, and they are involved in sponsoring motorsports.

And Toyota is a few exits down the freeway. The sponsor the race and they have an F1 team.

And the US is still Ferrari's largest market, with Southern California being the at the top.

It's the promoters job to get these people signed as sponsors of the race and/or lobby Bernie.

[downtowndeco]

It is the only one that matters to Madison Ave. That has ALWAYS been the case, even before the split, dating back to when sponsor money became the driving force with the teams. And as long as Madison Ave. feels that way it is the only race that MUST remain on the schedule. All other races are, in effect, expendable. The promoters all know this and have for a very long time.

Gary

I was going to reply to Mike15 but you said it so much better. Thanks.

[Chamoo]

And Toyota is a few exits down the freeway. The sponsor the race and they have an F1 team.

Toyota doesn't sponsor the race. The Toyota dealerships of southern California sponsor the race. The main Toyota company has nothing to do with the LBGP.

F1 will never race there. Don't get your hopes up.

[Wilf]

Being that you both ignored this question I'll post it again:

One last question. Is Long Beach worth losing to save money on Surfers?

Help me remember, didn't the negotiations for reunification include TG paying KK to run the Long Beach Grand Prix? Isn't that money going the wrong way?

[SarahFan]

? No one here really knows about it. The IRL is not going to make the same mistake CC made, .


really?

the IRl has added ovals at an 8-1 pace recently....turned two viable ovals last year alone...

obscure cable network, spec seris. power owners, turbos, optiontires, standing starts..street coarses, etc etc


what exactly has the IRl done latetly thay would convince they aren't/wont make the same mistakes?

[Rex Monaco]

Toyota doesn't sponsor the race. The Toyota dealerships of southern California sponsor the race. The main Toyota company has nothing to do with the LBGP.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

http://www.gplb.com/sponsorlist.html

Toyota Motor Sales, USA
In its 32nd year of Grand Prix sponsorship, Toyota has become one of the largest sponsors in all of motorsports, as well as one of the most successful programs in U. S. racing.

Toyota Motorsports
Now among the largest supporters of motorsports in the U.S., both competitively and through sponsorships, Toyota seeks new challenges - and, hopefully, new triumphs - on a variety of fronts in the new millennium. Toyota Racing Development (TRD), based in Costa Mesa, plays a major role in developing and building racing engines. Toyota continues to compete in off-road racing, NASCAR and, of course, remains title sponsor of the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, where its U.S. motorsports involvement began over 30 years ago!

[Rex Monaco]

F1 will never race there. Don't get your hopes up.

And wrong? Only time will tell.

[Wilf]

Have you seen how many containers leave the Port of Long Beach? Which is the nations second busiest port. The first being it's next door neighbor, The Port of Los Angeles.

If there is no race in Long Beach, it won't be because Indianaoplis, Indiana has more money than Long Beach, Califonia.

How do you recoup the 15 to 20 million bucks Bernie is reported to want for a race is the US. Its not a question if there is money in the market, the questions is how does a sponsor recoup the outlay in a three/four day event.

If it was a no brainer, KK would have celebrated demise of his series and brought Bernie in instead of extorting TG.

[Chamoo]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

http://www.gplb.com/sponsorlist.html

Toyota Motor Sales, USA
In its 32nd year of Grand Prix sponsorship, Toyota has become one of the largest sponsors in all of motorsports, as well as one of the most successful programs in U. S. racing.

Toyota Motorsports
Now among the largest supporters of motorsports in the U.S., both competitively and through sponsorships, Toyota seeks new challenges - and, hopefully, new triumphs - on a variety of fronts in the new millennium. Toyota Racing Development (TRD), based in Costa Mesa, plays a major role in developing and building racing engines. Toyota continues to compete in off-road racing, NASCAR and, of course, remains title sponsor of the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, where its U.S. motorsports involvement began over 30 years ago!

The race is still sponsored by the dealerships whether the Toyota website says so or not. Toyota is able to say they sponsor the race since they infact control the dealerships in the long run, but they don't turn any money out to the LBGP.

[garyshell]

Have you seen how many containers leave the Port of Long Beach? Which is the nations second busiest port. The first being it's next door neighbor, The Port of Los Angeles.

If there is no race in Long Beach, it won't be because Indianaoplis, Indiana has more money than Long Beach, Califonia.


So what? It could have five times or a hundred times more containers, but that would mean nothing to Bernie, nor would it do anything to provide the cubic dollars that Bernie will demand as a sanctioning fee. How do you make the jump from the number of containers to acquiring the dollars to pay the sanctioning fee.

The Indy argument is a total no sequitor. I never suggested it would or should be there. We are talking about whether or not it could ever again happen in Long Beach. Indy has NOTHING to do with that.



Where there is a will, there is always a way.

Panasonic's US headquarter is in Long Beach, and they are a sponsor on Toyota's F1 car.

Epson also has their US headquarters in Long Beach, and they are involved in sponsoring motorsports.

And Toyota is a few exits down the freeway. The sponsor the race and they have an F1 team.

And the US is still Ferrari's largest market, with Southern California being the at the top.

It's the promoters job to get these people signed as sponsors of the race and/or lobby Bernie.

Do you have a freakin' clue how much money Bernie is demanding from foreign countries to host an F1 race, and he is getting that money from those governments? Do you think, for one nanosecond, that he is going to ask any less from the likes of Long Beach? And do you think ANY of those companies is going to pony up that money, when they already are paying big dollars just to sponsor a car in F1? You seem to have the will, do you have the way? Put a proposal to Bernie, call the companies above and pitch your plan. Get back to us when the all hand you your own head on a plate. :eek:

Gary

[Dr. Krogshöj]

F1 manufacturers are pushing for a race in the United States, especially BMW. Bernie is not so keen, but it's important for the teams. I doubt TG will put on a race at IMS again, he doesn't need any more events right now. Kalkhoven won't pay the standard $15-20 million in annual sanctioning fees to Bernie, nor will the City of Long Beach, but Bernie may purchase this race from KK & GF as a strategic asset, like he purchased Istanbul. As an F1 fan, I would like to see this, as an Indycar fan, not so much.

Anyway, downtowndeco, Long Beach pulled a 0.8 rating this year, so if you think it isnt't worth saving, the IRL might just as well get rid of Homestead, Motegi, Kansas, Milwaukee, Texas, Kentucky, Chicago, St. Pete and Sonoma too. Check the ratings posted by Lousada in the "Is the open wheel..." thread. If you think an established race with 80,000+ Sunday attendance and a household brand in the SoCal/LA market is not important for IndyCar and the sponsors, be my guest.

[Rex Monaco]

How do you make the jump from the number of containers to acquiring the dollars to pay the sanctioning fee(?)

Ok, here's a clue for you.

The Port of Long Beach is a 'business' that is competing against other North American ports for foreign dollars. Of all the current sponsors of the Long Beach Grand Prix, the Port of Long Beach would be the sponsor in the best position to utilize the global reach of F1 for it's own economic benefit.


http://www.gplb.com/sponsorlist.html

PORT OF LONG BEACH
The Port of Long Beach is one of America’s premier seaports and a trailblazer in goods movement and environmental stewardship. Trade valued annually at more than $100 billion moves through Long Beach, making it the second-busiest seaport in the United States.

A major economic force, the Port supports more than 30,000 jobs in Long Beach, 316,000 jobs throughout Southern California and 1.4 million jobs throughout the United States. It generates about $16 billion in annual trade-related wages statewide. With a Green Port Policy guiding efforts to minimize or eliminate negative environmental impacts, the Port also is a catalyst for innovative environmental programs.

[Rex Monaco]

...but Bernie may purchase this race from KK & GF as a strategic asset, like he purchased Istanbul.

And I bet they'd make more from the sale than from 10 years of running an IRL race there.

[Rex Monaco]

So what? It could have five times or a hundred times more containers, but that would mean nothing to Bernie, nor would it do anything to provide the cubic dollars that Bernie will demand as a sanctioning fee. How do you make the jump from the number of containers to acquiring the dollars to pay the sanctioning fee.

The Indy argument is a total no sequitor. I never suggested it would or should be there. We are talking about whether or not it could ever again happen in Long Beach. Indy has NOTHING to do with that.




Do you have a freakin' clue how much money Bernie is demanding from foreign countries to host an F1 race, and he is getting that money from those governments? Do you think, for one nanosecond, that he is going to ask any less from the likes of Long Beach? And do you think ANY of those companies is going to pony up that money, when they already are paying big dollars just to sponsor a car in F1? You seem to have the will, do you have the way? Put a proposal to Bernie, call the companies above and pitch your plan. Get back to us when the all hand you your own head on a plate. :eek:

Gary

That's the American spirit, buckle and fold at the first whiff of a challenge!

[Rex Monaco]

The race is still sponsored by the dealerships whether the Toyota website says so or not.

Actually that was from the Long Beach Grand Prix website (notice the link?).



This is from Toyota's website:
http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/history.html

Of course, it all starts right in Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A.'s own backyard with "The Roar On The Shore" - the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, where the company will celebrate its 34th year of involvement in 2008.

Dating back to the event's inaugural running in 1975, where Toyota served as the pace car at the first event, the automaker's presence in Long Beach has grown to include the event's title sponsorship since 1980, the popular 32nd annual Toyota Pro/Celebrity Race, as well as hosting more than 2,000 guests during the race weekend.

Also referred to as "the American Monaco," the Toyota Grand Prix has something for everyone - from the hard-core race enthusiast to the casual fan or people-watcher. Unique, though, is the glitz and glamour of Hollywood with the signature Toyota Pro/Celebrity Race that regularly attracts some of the biggest names in Hollywood - and this past year was no different as filmmaker extraordinaire George Lucas headlined the event, along with tennis legend Martina Navratilova.

In 2005, Toyota and the Grand Prix Association of Long Beach reached an agreement to further extend the title sponsorship through 2010.



Toyota might take money from the advertising budget for the Southern California Toyota dealers to help promote the race locally (and they do a good job), but it is Toyota Motor Sales, USA that sponsors the race.

[NickFalzone]

I can't imagine any situation where a Long Beach race could be profitable at those prices. F1 is barely on tv in the US and while it may bring in some international traffic, the fact of the matter is that it would not bring in much more of a crowd than 09's IndyCar race (or even 08's for that matter). IMS is the only facility that can actually make money back on event like that. As far as the public is concerned it's just a bunch of fast cars going street racing. There's some credibility to F1 but it does not have a substantial fanbase domestically.

[garyshell]

Ok, here's a clue for you.

The Port of Long Beach is a 'business' that is competing against other North American ports for foreign dollars. Of all the current sponsors of the Long Beach Grand Prix, the Port of Long Beach would be the sponsor in the best position to utilize the global reach of F1 for it's own economic benefit.


http://www.gplb.com/sponsorlist.html

PORT OF LONG BEACH
The Port of Long Beach is one of America’s premier seaports and a trailblazer in goods movement and environmental stewardship. Trade valued annually at more than $100 billion moves through Long Beach, making it the second-busiest seaport in the United States.

A major economic force, the Port supports more than 30,000 jobs in Long Beach, 316,000 jobs throughout Southern California and 1.4 million jobs throughout the United States. It generates about $16 billion in annual trade-related wages statewide. With a Green Port Policy guiding efforts to minimize or eliminate negative environmental impacts, the Port also is a catalyst for innovative environmental programs.


You are dreaming. Do you REALLY expect the Port of Long Beach to spend $15-20 million to sponsor a race? How does that sort of investment reach the decision makers that affect the Port's bottom line? You do realize that the point of sponsoring a race is to advertise your name to decision makers that will buy your product, right? I still don't see how the Port of LB and F1 make ANY sort of connection. They don't even ship the cars or equipment to LB, almost everything is flown in.

Gary

[garyshell]

That's the American spirit, buckle and fold at the first whiff of a challenge!

Put up or shut up. It's YOUR challenge, you need to make the proposal to Bernie. The "American spirit" is also about knowing how to choose your battles. I realize that no promoter has a ghost of a chance to make a penny on F1 in America. Bernie will see to that. If you want to waste your time and money go for it. But don't expect anyone else to be foolish enough to do so.

The ONLY hope for a LB F1 race is if Bernie buys the rights himself. That way all he is doing is taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. That MIGHT work.

Gary

[DBell]

The ONLY hope for a LB F1 race is if Bernie buys the rights himself. That way all he is doing is taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. That MIGHT work.
Gary

I saw on Speeds F1 coverage Peter Windsor say that Bernie considered this a few years ago, but opted not to do so. He's done this recently with Turkey. I don't think it's very likely, but I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility either.

No one's asked the question so I will. Does the IRL have an actual signed contract with LB? If they do and it's for 5 years or something like that, then that would make all of this moot until the contract is up again.

Wasn't this thread about Surfer's? ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Just doing a quick scan of people's opinions here, it doesn't sound like the IRL fans care if Surfers or Long Beach stays or goes, even if the loss of the former means the loss of a car on the grid.

Surfers is a great race venue. So hopefully A1GP or some other series would step in and keep it going, along with the V8's.

As for Long Beach, for selfish, personal reasons, I'd love to see it become the new home of the United States Grand Prix. Other than New York (never happen) or Las Vegas (never heard why Wynn didn't follow through), I can't think of a better U.S. city to host the U.S. GP.

Hopefully Bernie could adjust his fee or maybe even take part ownership (from whomever currently owns the race). But I'd like to see Long Beach regain the glory that it had when it was the second highest rated open wheel race in the U.S. As an IRL race, I feel that it will just continue to sink into the oblivion started by the Three Brothers Stooge.

[Chamoo]

I will toss my opinion in here.

I hope both stay on the schedule. I think that the CCWS was always a hit in Australia, and now the ICS will have that chance. However, if the ICS and the Gold Coast Indy can't come to grips on a date, why not can the Gold Coast Indy, and move to another V8Supercar race in Australia? The ICS can pick a date that suits itself based on the V8Supercar challenge. This way everyone is happy.

[Jag_Warrior]

I will toss my opinion in here.

I hope both stay on the schedule. I think that the CCWS was always a hit in Australia, and now the ICS will have that chance. However, if the ICS and the Gold Coast Indy can't come to grips on a date, why not can the Gold Coast Indy, and move to another V8Supercar race in Australia? The ICS can pick a date that suits itself based on the V8Supercar challenge. This way everyone is happy.

I guess it would come down to whether or not they could find another promoter or government body that would pay the sanction and transportation fees.

[DBell]

Just doing a quick scan of people's opinions here, it doesn't sound like the IRL fans care if Surfers or Long Beach stays or goes, even if the loss of the former means the loss of a car on the grid.

Surfers is a great race venue. So hopefully A1GP or some other series would step in and keep it going, along with the V8's.

As for Long Beach, for selfish, personal reasons, I'd love to see it become the new home of the United States Grand Prix. Other than New York (never happen) or Las Vegas (never heard why Wynn didn't follow through), I can't think of a better U.S. city to host the U.S. GP.

Hopefully Bernie could adjust his fee or maybe even take part ownership (from whomever currently owns the race). But I'd like to see Long Beach regain the glory that it had when it was the second highest rated open wheel race in the U.S. As an IRL race, I feel that it will just continue to sink into the oblivion started by the Three Brothers Stooge.

I would love to see LB become the US GP again, but it's not very likely, IMO.

I know what you mean about the IRL fans not caring about these 2 races or really any other race other than Indy. Indy is the only thing that matters to them and I guess that will never change. Why have a season? Why not take the money spent on the season and put it into Indy. Make it the biggest purse in the world for a sporting event. They could have an oval or 2 as preparation events and then go to Indy. I can't see how the IRL will develop a season of strong race events when it's easy to dismiss any race as expendable.

[Rex Monaco]

I still don't see how the Port of LB and F1 make ANY sort of connection. They don't even ship the cars or equipment to LB, almost everything is flown in.

How's this for a connection. Toyota, Nissan and Honda all use the Port of Long Beach to import car's into the US.

[Rex Monaco]

...the fact of the matter is that it would not bring in much more of a crowd than 09's IndyCar race (or even 08's for that matter).

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. On what facts do you base this opinion?

[Rex Monaco]

Put up or shut up. It's YOUR challenge, you need to make the proposal to Bernie.

Woops, for a second I almost forgot how the internet works.

I'll call Bernie on Monday. Yep, right after I call Bush and Putin and solve the Georgia thing...

[Rex Monaco]

Do you REALLY expect the Port of Long Beach to spend $15-20 million to sponsor a race?

No, I'd hope the Port of Long Beach would be on a longer list of sponsors who would be willing to pay a combined $15-20 million to sponsor the race.



How does that sort of investment reach the decision makers that affect the Port's bottom line?

You're right, there is no business case for any sponsor to spend any money on any motorports.

That Formula One is broadcast in almost every country of the world and includes countries such as China, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia and others that export products to the USA via the west coast is completely inconsequential to this discussion.

[Chamoo]

No, I'd hope the Port of Long Beach would be on a longer list of sponsors who would be willing to pay a combined $15-20 million to sponsor the race.



You're right, there is no business case for any sponsor to spend any money on any motorports.

That Formula One is broadcast in almost every country of the world and includes countries such as China, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia and others that export products to the USA via the west coast is completely inconsequential to this discussion.

Three things

a) Can you not post four replies at a time?
b) Can you stop repeatedly talking about F1 in the Indycar forum when it's obvious your sole objective in this thread is to convince everyone from here to England that it makes perfect business/racing/logical sense to run F1 at LB instead of Indycars, and that it could be done with a snap of the finger.
c) It won't ever happen.

[MDS]

Chamoo, in post #59, has a very good point. Lets close out the F1 stuff in this forum.

Well getting back to the point... It seems to me as though there is a partner who wants to host a successful, established race and sponsor half of the one of the top 5 teams in the IRL and some fans want to tell them to kiss off because its a street race that's on late at night. I don't get it.

Seems like a pretty easy call for me, find a date and a financial package that works for everyone. The Aussies seem to want it pretty badly. Maybe TG is still pissed at them for spoiling his low-ball offer for Champ Car's assets back in 2002.

[NickFalzone]

Well getting back to the point... It seems to me as though there is a partner who wants to host a successful, established race and sponsor half of the one of the top 5 teams in the IRL and some fans want to tell them to kiss off because its a street race that's on late at night. I don't get it.

Seems like a pretty easy call for me, find a date and a financial package that works for everyone. The Aussies seem to want it pretty badly. Maybe TG is still pissed at them for spoiling his low-ball offer for Champ Car's assets back in 2002.

I'm looking forward to Surfer's next month, but even drivers are saying that it's a major trek for modest rewards. I'd like to see Road America added instead. Keep the races in the US and at a reasonable time of day to watch live. The last thing the IRL needs is more 1 am races in other countries, particularly on VS. IF/when IndyCar racing achieves some of the popularity that CART had, then maybe expand into some exciting new markets. But for right now, they need to just improve their bread and butter of American ovals and road/streets.

[MDS]

I'm looking forward to Surfer's next month, but even drivers are saying that it's a major trek for modest rewards. I'd like to see Road America added instead. Keep the races in the US and at a reasonable time of day to watch live. The last thing the IRL needs is more 1 am races in other countries, particularly on VS. IF/when IndyCar racing achieves some of the popularity that CART had, then maybe expand into some exciting new markets. But for right now, they need to just improve their bread and butter of American ovals and road/streets.

So basically you should tell an enthusiastic ally, "Thanks but no thanks, do keep the seat warm though and we may get back in contact with you in four or five years?" After all its not like the only two marquee events on the schedule is Indy and Long Beach, who needs to be racing at a massive international event when you have such winners as Kentucky, and massive, sophisticated cities like Newton Iowa and the ever classy Richmond? Heck, the IRL is more than healthy enough to discard well attended events for vanity's sake.

Surfers is one of the biggest events on the schedule, and brings in at least one major sponsor. Road America would be nice, but costs a ton of money for a TV partner to cover because of its layout, and is a crap shoot as to whether there is support there. With Surfer's you have a successful event in a country that is home to the current champion and two other top drivers. If it can be worked out, it needs to be worked out. I don't think it will happen because there seems to be a lot of "Vision" missing in the IRL front office.

[NickFalzone]

What do you define as a successful event? Lots of people at the track? I would define it in this level of importance:

TV Ratings
Competitive & safe race
Happy sponsors (are most IRL sponsors getting anything out of Surfer's?)
Merch sales & at track attendance

Now if Surfer's brought a major sponsor, like Motegi does with Honda, then suddenly there are strong financial reasons to have a race there. But right now, we have half of a race team sponsored by an Australian winery. KV is a great team, and I would like for them to keep that great sponsor. And I appreciate the fact that Surfer's will provide great racing and is welcoming the IRL to a first class event. But the IRL cannot simply choose an event because it will likely have good attendance and one of the cars is sponsored there. There needs to be a better $$ reason. And there are reasons against it, like travel costs, bad airtime for live broadcast, and issues with V8 Supercars that are competing for race dates.

And why do you assume that other events, like Portland or Mexico City, have not invited the IRL? Every indication has been that Angstadt would like to have a 20 race schedule, including an additional 2 road/street races. But they are locked into certain dates right now and do not want to stretch the limited funds of the teams after they just bought millions in equipment. I think that 2010 season will be the one that legitimately deserves to be argued over. What we have now is just a slightly jazzed up IRL calendar that had been set several years ahead.

[bigreddog]

... With Surfer's you have a successful event in a country that is home to the current champion and two other top drivers. ...
Just a little correction here: New Zealand is not part of Australia, Dixon is a Kiwi not an Aussie...

[Chamoo]

Just a little correction here: New Zealand is not part of Australia, Dixon is a Kiwi not an Aussie...

He was born in Australia was he not?

[nanders]

So basically you should tell an enthusiastic ally, "Thanks but no thanks, do keep the seat warm though and we may get back in contact with you in four or five years?" After all its not like the only two marquee events on the schedule is Indy and Long Beach, who needs to be racing at a massive international event when you have such winners as Kentucky, and massive, sophisticated cities like Newton Iowa and the ever classy Richmond? Heck, the IRL is more than healthy enough to discard well attended events for vanity's sake.

Surfers is one of the biggest events on the schedule, and brings in at least one major sponsor. Road America would be nice, but costs a ton of money for a TV partner to cover because of its layout, and is a crap shoot as to whether there is support there. With Surfer's you have a successful event in a country that is home to the current champion and two other top drivers. If it can be worked out, it needs to be worked out. I don't think it will happen because there seems to be a lot of "Vision" missing in the IRL front office.

I agree

[DBell]

He was born in Australia was he not?

John McCain was born in Panama, but he's not Panamanian.

[DBell]

So basically you should tell an enthusiastic ally, "Thanks but no thanks, do keep the seat warm though and we may get back in contact with you in four or five years?" After all its not like the only two marquee events on the schedule is Indy and Long Beach, who needs to be racing at a massive international event when you have such winners as Kentucky, and massive, sophisticated cities like Newton Iowa and the ever classy Richmond? Heck, the IRL is more than healthy enough to discard well attended events for vanity's sake.

Surfers is one of the biggest events on the schedule, and brings in at least one major sponsor. Road America would be nice, but costs a ton of money for a TV partner to cover because of its layout, and is a crap shoot as to whether there is support there. With Surfer's you have a successful event in a country that is home to the current champion and two other top drivers. If it can be worked out, it needs to be worked out. I don't think it will happen because there seems to be a lot of "Vision" missing in the IRL front office.

Agree

[Marbles]

For people here to give Long Beach or Australia the short shrift for American open wheel, and I use the term "American" loosely, is very telling. To continue that the I500 is the only race that matters to Madison Ave. shows we don't understand.

We've seen just how much the I500 matters to the world and Madison Ave. over the past 13 years when it didn't have a LB or Australia or Toronto on it's schedule. These races were both building blocks and corner stones that brought AOW popularity that it hasn't seen in over a decade.

If you think another Iowa Korn 300 is more important to this series, regardless of present day TV ratings, than a LB or an Australia then I hope you get what you deserve... that plus a 3 hour pre-race show starring Jimmy Spencer and Kenny Wallace.

[Rex Monaco]

...and that it could be done with a snap of the finger.

Snap of the finger? Where'd you glean that nonsense from?

[Rex Monaco]

a) Can you not post four replies at a time?

Not really. 4 is the magic number for me.

[downtowndeco]

For people here to give Long Beach or Australia the short shrift for American open wheel, and I use the term "American" loosely, is very telling. To continue that the I500 is the only race that matters to Madison Ave. shows we don't understand.

We've seen just how much the I500 matters to the world and Madison Ave. over the past 13 years when it didn't have a LB or Australia or Toronto on it's schedule. These races were both building blocks and corner stones that brought AOW popularity that it hasn't seen in over a decade.

If you think another Iowa Korn 300 is more important to this series, regardless of present day TV ratings, than a LB or an Australia then I hope you get what you deserve... that plus a 3 hour pre-race show starring Jimmy Spencer and Kenny Wallace.

It's a real stretch to think that the reason the ratings for the 500 have dropped are because the IRL didn't race in Australia. Real stretch.

Asking for that very expensive, low return race to continue just to make one team owner happy is no different than if one of the teams demanded Nashville stay on the schedule. Except Nashville doesn't cost the teams a boatload of money to attend.

Nick said it best here;

"What do you define as a successful event? Lots of people at the track? I would define it in this level of importance:

TV Ratings
Competitive & safe race
Happy sponsors (are most IRL sponsors getting anything out of Surfer's?)
Merch sales & at track attendance"

I'll ask his question again. How do you define a "successful" event?

[Marbles]

I'll ask his question again. How do you define a "successful" event?

A successful event is one that contributes to the series as a whole. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. An image of AOW being centre stage at a popular festival in a far away land can only help the IRL. Is it a money maker or not enough of a money maker? Is it prohibitively expensive or is it just expensive? A flat broke CC managed to keep it going. If so, consider it a loss leader. What I do know is that there is series participation and a strong fan base of AOW in that corner of the planet. That's the big picture.


The little picture... Is there a lot of joy at any of these current races when they're folding the chairs and counting the tens and twenties? Regarding TV ratings, I don't think anyone here can discuss them and keep a straight face at this point in time.

[Marbles]

It's a real stretch to think that the reason the ratings for the 500 have dropped are because the IRL didn't race in Australia. Real stretch.

Someone here is really stretching it. Narrow your quote of mine to where I specifically stated that.

[downtowndeco]

Someone here is really stretching it. Narrow your quote of mine to where I specifically stated that.

Can't get any clearer than this;



"We've seen just how much the I500 matters to the world and Madison Ave. over the past 13 years when it didn't have a LB or Australia or Toronto on it's schedule. These races were both building blocks and corner stones that brought AOW popularity that it hasn't seen in over a decade. "

[SarahFan]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24108811-23770,00.html

^the above article mentions that ISC has stipulated that homestead be the final race for 2009...

can anyone say based on any 'criteria' that Homestead is a more successful event/race than surfers?

[Marbles]

Can't get any clearer than this;



"We've seen just how much the I500 matters to the world and Madison Ave. over the past 13 years when it didn't have a LB or Australia or Toronto on it's schedule. These races were both building blocks and corner stones that brought AOW popularity that it hasn't seen in over a decade. "

I give up. I can't continue along these lines.

[garyshell]

How's this for a connection. Toyota, Nissan and Honda all use the Port of Long Beach to import car's into the US.


So what? You keep talking about the port. I keep asking how do you turn the traffic in the port into DOLLARS to pay an astronomical sanctioning fee. You keep ignoring the REAL question. I don't care if 100% of the world's container traffic comes through LB, if you can't figure out how to make that pay the sanctioning fee what difference doe that make?

Gary

[garyshell]

To continue that the I500 is the only race that matters to Madison Ave. shows we don't understand.

We've seen just how much the I500 matters to the world and Madison Ave. over the past 13 years when it didn't have a LB or Australia or Toronto on it's schedule.

No, what we saw for the past thirteen years was that the I500 was the only race that mattered to Madison Ave. Which series had the higher number of Madison Ave. sponsors on the side pods the past 13 years? And what else we saw was that much of Madison Ave. was not at all interested in a market (AOWR) split in two in a divisive power struggle. Where is the proof that the three venues you mentioned mattered one whit to the exec's in NY? They cared only that these venues were part of a SINGLE series.

Gary

[garyshell]

It's a real stretch to think that the reason the ratings for the 500 have dropped are because the IRL didn't race in Australia. Real stretch.

Agreed. Or that much of Madison Ave. turned away beacuse these races were missing, rather than because they were part of a SEPARATE series.


Except Nashville doesn't cost the teams a boatload of money to attend.

Does it REALLY cost a boatload? Much of the added expense is paid for by the promoter.

Gary

[dataman1]

Agreed. Or that much of Madison Ave. turned away beacuse these races were missing, rather than because they were part of a SEPARATE series.



Does it REALLY cost a boatload? Much of the added expense is paid for by the promoter.

Gary

Thanks for questioning the cost Gary. I too had doubts so I called and talked with a 2-car team. The contract between the ICS and promoter is for hotel, transfers to and from airport and a set number of coach seats and a set number of business class seats for each entry. If the team chooses to take more than the contract number of people it is an extra cost. If the team chooses to stay in a 5-star hotel rather than the contact hotel, it is at an extra cost. The teams have to pay to get their people and equipment to the west coast and back home plus their per diem and salaries. There will be more pay days on this trip than a typical west coast race.

[Marbles]

Agreed. Or that much of Madison Ave. turned away beacuse these races were missing, rather than because they were part of a SEPARATE series.
Gary

Nothing like having someone twist your words and then having your twisted words quoted by someone else.

[Rex Monaco]

I keep asking how do you turn the traffic in the port into DOLLARS to pay an astronomical sanctioning fee. You keep ignoring the REAL question.

I already told you that the Port of Long Beach is a business and it is currently a sponsor of the Long Beach Grand Prix. So it would not be a stretch to assume they could sign on as one of the sponsors.

Would the port alone foot the bill? No. And I never said they would. I have also listed a few other possible sponsors that are already involved in motorports that, combined, could come up with the sanctioning fee.

So it wasn't I who ignored your REAL question. It was you who ignored my REAL answer.

[Chamoo]

I already told you that the Port of Long Beach is a business and it is currently a sponsor of the Long Beach Grand Prix. So it would not be a stretch to assume they could sign on as one of the sponsors.

Would the port alone foot the bill? No. And I never said they would. I have also listed a few other possible sponsors that are already involved in motorports that, combined, could come up with the sanctioning fee.

So it wasn't I who ignored your REAL question. It was you who ignored my REAL answer.

This isn't the F1 Forum. Stop talking about F1!

[Rex Monaco]

This isn't the F1 Forum. Stop talking about F1!

You can hear me talking?