Ferrari confirms Kimi and Massa for 2009/10 !

[pino]

Italian Channel Sky Sport Italy has just confirmed that Ferrari will stick with both drivers for the next 2 seasons.

[555-04Q2]

Confirmed for what. Are they Catholic :p :

[ioan]

That's some news there!

Alonso to BMW or Honda then.

[Viktory]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8365.html

Poor choice of a headline.... Not said that Kimi will end, just pointing towards it.

[Dave B]

Poor grammar more than anything else, they mean "Ferrari confirm Raikkonen until end of 2010" :)

[jens]

This contract confirms one thing - Kimi IS motivated and the reasons for underperforming lie elsewhere. It's a positive attitude and for the sake of himself and the Ferrari team there is a hope for better in the future. :up:

Considering all those Alonso-rumours we have had and recent troubles at Grand Prix weekends maybe this announcement comes as a slight surprise, but some assumptions about Kimi's contract extension have existed before, so it doesn't come totally out of the blue.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's good news :up: I certainly didn't want to see Kimi leave F1 so soon, and Massa has proved he deserves his seat.

This makes the question mark over Alonso's future even more interesting. Can he find himself a car capable of challenging for wins in 2009?

Feck.

Whatta bigga mistaka to maka!

[Shalafi]

Haha...many people that doubt Kimis motivation were proved wrong. It was right thing to do. Kimis problem has been tires not motivation. He will win another WDC in the future.

[MAX_THRUST]

Even though many of you assume I hate Ferrari I am really pleased Kimi is staying at Ferrari. Its a joy to see him race and for him to be in a team where he can chalenge for Championship, smart move by Ferrari....

As for Alonso, I bet he is gutted? Maybe not? I still think some teams won't want him after last years issues, regardless of who is right or who is wrong, people form opinions. Maybe those opinions are starting to close doors on him.

[tintop]

Wow, what an interesting development for 2010 - sort of a logjam for the up and commers. Wonder if this changes BMW's calculus knowing that they could have Alonso for 2 years potentially?

[555-04Q2]

Well I'm happy that Massa has kept his seat. He has proven this season that he is a worthy WDC contender and derserves the drive. He has matured into a great racer, as some of us always believed he would. Kimi staying is also a positive on the continuity front, he needs to lift his game for 2009 though.

[Knock-on]

Well I'm happy that Massa has kept his seat. He has proven this season that he is a worthy WDC contender and derserves the drive. He has matured into a great racer, as some of us always believed he would. Kimi staying is also a positive on the continuity front, he needs to lift his game for 2009 though.

Massa has come on leaps and bounds this year.

Will be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes and whether he has the maturity to win the champoinship but at the moment, he's pretty much on his game.

Kimi seems a lot happier with this new Chassis as well. Would be great to see him back to form.

Good signing from Ferrari. Always thought they would be mad to sign Alonso.

[rublazar2]

There is a poll in a Italian newspaper (www.gazzetta.it (http://www.gazzetta.it)) asking about this new. And the results are very (for me) surprising: 55% think it's a mistake by Ferrari, and in case they have to choose other driver, almost 57% would go for Alonso.

[Knock-on]

There is a poll in a Italian newspaper (www.gazzetta.it (http://www.gazzetta.it)) asking about this new. And the results are very (for me) surprising: 55% think it's a mistake by Ferrari, and in case they have to choose other driver, almost 57% would go for Alonso.

I think that may be a case of the heart ruling the head.

Kimi isn't a Mansell or a Schumy. He just happens to drive a Ferrari.

[rabf1]

Smart move for Ferrari to pass on Fred.

It'll be interesting to see how he acts at BMW when Kubica outperfoms him.

[Dave B]

Smart move for Ferrari to pass on Fred.

It'll be interesting to see how he acts at BMW when Kubica outperfoms him.

Or at Honda when Button outperforms him :p

[ShiftingGears]

Or at Honda when Button outperforms him :p

Good one Dave :p :

[markabilly]

Or at Honda when Button outperforms him :p


Hope springs eternal in the minds of mad dogs and englishmen.....poor FA, unable to beat Button out of next to last place, oh the sorrow be he

[truefan72]

That's some news there!

Alonso to BMW or Honda then.


yep, probably BMW...and heidlfeld to Honda

[pino]

There is a poll in a Italian newspaper (www.gazzetta.it (http://www.gazzetta.it)) asking about this new. And the results are very (for me) surprising: 55% think it's a mistake by Ferrari, and in case they have to choose other driver, almost 57% would go for Alonso.

Go and see poll results now after more than 70.000 italians voted, you will find out that 80% now agrees with Ferrari decision ;)



http://www.gazzetta.it/appsSondaggi/votazioneDispatch.do?method=risultati&idSondaggio=3284

[markabilly]

Go and see poll results now after more than 70.000 italians voted, you will find out that 80% now agrees with Ferrari decision ;)



http://www.gazzetta.it/appsSondaggi/votazioneDispatch.do?method=risultati&idSondaggio=3284

No they don't. Only 76.1%

[ioan]

And now they might be thinking why didn't Ferrari try to sign Vettel instead of one of them?!

[jens]

Ferrari may have rushed with this decision. I don't think there was any direct need to sort things out for 2010 so quickly. Who knows, how will different teams perform in 2009 and how will various drivers perform (maybe a new star will rise, who everyone wants to hire) and which other situations may change. Ferrari must have enormous confidence in their drivers to makes things clear for such long time, although it seems in the wet this belief isn't justifying itself...

[markabilly]

vettel?? one pole doesnot make a wdc

[DexDexter]

Ferrari may have rushed with this decision. I don't think there was any direct need to sort things out for 2010 so quickly. Who knows, how will different teams perform in 2009 and how will various drivers perform (maybe a new star will rise, who everyone wants to hire) and which other situations may change. Ferrari must have enormous confidence in their drivers to makes things clear for such long time, although it seems in the wet this belief isn't justifying itself...

Of course they have confidence in their drivers, one won the world championship last year and the other is on his way to do that this year plus they get on with each other ok, that's rare considering they are fighting with each other. Excellent choice by Ferrari I say.

[markabilly]

So will FA go to beemer???Will Nick stay? I have wondered about some recent comments from RK and his pop who say that beemer has not been delivering the goods to him, and now a rumor that Thessien is not happy with Rk, that RK was cussing big time at Spa, and so on.
So????

[truefan72]

Ferrari may have rushed with this decision. I don't think there was any direct need to sort things out for 2010 so quickly. Who knows, how will different teams perform in 2009 and how will various drivers perform (maybe a new star will rise, who everyone wants to hire) and which other situations may change. Ferrari must have enormous confidence in their drivers to makes things clear for such long time, although it seems in the wet this belief isn't justifying itself...

rushed to the decision,

man this is weird.

I'm not even a Ferrari fan, but Kimi is arguably a top 3 driver and current WDC, who in his first year at Ferrari won the championship and could just have easily been in contention (and might still be) if he finished 2nd in spa.
I'm not sure where the angst over kimi is coming from. If he at his relative young age decides to commit to Ferrari for another 2 years then I'm sure he will perform well enough to challenge for the WDC in the next 2 years. The guys' got more talent and guile than his teammate and is way more accomplished. So I do think that Ferrari made a good decision ensuring that they have a strong lineup, consistency and two drivers that they know very well for the next 2 years.

[pino]

Ferrari had no choice, in Kimi's contract there was an option in Kimi favour that allowed him to extend the deal for one more year, and he just did that. And I still think it's a great move for both ;)

[aryan]

Ferrari had no choice, in Kimi's contract there was an option in Kimi favour that allowed him to extend the deal for one more year, and he just did that. And I still think it's a great move for both ;)

Kimi's manager deserves his salary then.

[markabilly]

Ferrari had no choice, in Kimi's contract there was an option in Kimi favour that allowed him to extend the deal for one more year, and he just did that. And I still think it's a great move for both ;)


Sure is, where else are they going to find a driver who can consistently set fast laps of the race at the end of a race, especially on the last lap, when it makes no difference as to the outcome of a race, and is too far behind to score meaningful points???

Is Tamberello right?

And if Kimi were to leave, who is going to be at Ferrari for LH to pass....

[ioan]

I'm really sure that Ferrari made a mistake when they took that decision.

They should have bargained with RBR and STR for Vettel, you might bet that a free engine + KERS package would have been enough.

[veeten]

Of course they have confidence in their drivers, one won the world championship last year and the other is on his way to do that this year plus they get on with each other ok, that's rare considering they are fighting with each other. Excellent choice by Ferrari I say.

A lovely hypothesis, if facts didn't get in the way.

Kimi won last year not by his own capabilities, but by Hamilton giving it away in the initial laps of the Brazillian GP. Massa was not helping his own cause either, as he had a chance to finish with the WDC but stumbled. Kimi kept it together and took advantage of things.

This season, Massa has been his usual self; great in some races, and lost in others. Kimi making appearances in the top 5 has been equally inconsistent, as this weekend's exploits has shown.

While Ferrari has been at the front in the WCC, the WDC has been a mess for them. In the past, especially during the 'Schumacher years', there has always been a lead and a second which assured Ferrari of a clear plan for the Drivers' and Constructors' championship. Everything works from that premise, from the front office to the guys that load the trailers for the race weekend. Both drivers would be a great lead for any other team, but Ferrari's present form just makes it bad for them to get a fix on just who will get all the support.

Remember, it was during these two races that Ferrari would gravitate to who would be seen as the 'alpha driver', and that Kimi would put forth better results than we've have seen so far. After the contract signing, this weekend's results have not done much to dispell the nagging doubts.

It's just not what most had expected this season to be, and hoping for failure from others to win is a poor cousin from what once was.

[jens]

The guys' got more talent and guile than his teammate and is way more accomplished.


I of course read the whole of your post, but this section shows most clearly, why I disagree with your analysis. Massa is beating Räikkönen on a consistent basis, so I'm wondering in which universe is Kimi more talented. This is exactly, why I think Kimi is overrated. It doesn't matter how badly he underperforms, people still keep hyping him. All the other drivers would have been crucified after such performances. Unlike you I personally don't rate him as a Top3 driver (and I doubt whether I would put him even into Top6).

Yes, he won the WDC in 2007, but it was more a results of coincidences rather than his own superior skills. Remember, in 2007 Kimi was slower than Massa during the whole first half of the season, so his overall performance in 2007 was far from great.

Shame Vettel can't join the team before 2011.

[ioan]

Well, Ferrari look set to lose the WCC title to McLaren, and the drivers title isn't a clear cut either.
So, to confirm both drivers for 2 more years when they are losing both titles with them, it's a bit daft.

[ioan]

Shame Vettel can't join the team before 2011.

I wouldn't bet on that. Contracts can me terminated from one day to the other.

[BDunnell]

Well, Ferrari look set to lose the WCC title to McLaren, and the drivers title isn't a clear cut either.
So, to confirm both drivers for 2 more years when they are losing both titles with them, it's a bit daft.

I'm a bit unsure as to who could be considered a definitively better option. After all, both Massa and Raikkönen are proven race-winners on a regular basis, which the likes of Vettel and Kubica aren't — yet. I feel that a change of drivers after next season might be a good idea, but not before.

[veeten]

but it comes back to that main question that will be apparent next year, as it was last year, and even more prevalent this year...

Exactly whom is the lead driver for this team, Massa or Raikkonen?

Keeping from making this decision, just to save the drivers any hurt feelings, is what's keeping this team from putting together a winning combination.

[BDunnell]

but it comes back to that main question that will be apparent next year, as it was last year, and even more prevalent this year...

Exactly whom is the lead driver for this team, Massa or Raikkonen?

Keeping from making this decision, just to save the drivers any hurt feelings, is what's keeping this team from putting together a winning combination.

But they could well have a 'winning combination' if Massa wins the WDC, and there isn't much more that can be asked than that. I think expectations of teams and drivers are sometimes set too high by their fans.

[BDunnell]

I'm a bit unsure as to who could be considered a definitively better option. After all, both Massa and Raikkönen are proven race-winners on a regular basis, which the likes of Vettel and Kubica aren't — yet. I feel that a change of drivers after next season might be a good idea, but not before.

Of course, I stupidly forgot Alonso in offering this view, for he would, in my view, be preferable to Kimi.

[ioan]

I'm a bit unsure as to who could be considered a definitively better option. After all, both Massa and Raikkönen are proven race-winners on a regular basis, which the likes of Vettel and Kubica aren't — yet. I feel that a change of drivers after next season might be a good idea, but not before.

Might be, but in the current situation changing a driver after next season will be way more costly, from a financial and legal POV.

[markabilly]

Might be, but in the current situation changing a driver after next season will be way more costly, from a financial and legal POV.


So it seems the same it will be for Beemer, if that happens

[leopard]

If this is a final decision, I can but hoping that they have made the right choice, drivers they can lean more and more wins on.

Aside of result lapping the track Ferrari might have their own reason to justify the choice. I still have opinion driver finished top 4 in a lesser car deserves more of the place than those scored nothing...

[555-04Q2]

This is exactly, why I think Kimi is overrated. It doesn't matter how badly he underperforms, people still keep hyping him.

Some of us have been saying it for years now. While he is fast, he is the most overated driver in F1. He was to destroy Schumacher if he raced against him at Ferrari, but he cant even match Massa at the moment. Yet more excuses for his poor performances will follow though :(

[ShiftingGears]

That was a pretty underwhelming Grand Prix on Ferrari's part.

[ArrowsFA1]

You do wonder whether Kimi's comparatively brief racing career before F1 didn't prepare him well enough. Perhaps he didn't get the kind of understanding of a racing car that others got. When he says (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70631) "Sometimes it works and sometimes not, and we don't really have an explanation about why it doesn't work, and why the tyres work sometimes" it doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he and the team will find a solution. If they're lucky they may stumble upon it, if not how are things going to improve?

[ShiftingGears]

After the grand prix I was thinking how finishing 9th wasn't the best way to celebrate a contract extension :p :

[leopard]

Likewise, Ferrari announced the extension right after losing out the battle against Hamilton in the chicane and contributed no points at all to the team. :)

[SGWilko]

After the grand prix I was thinking how finishing 9th wasn't the best way to celebrate a contract extension :p :

A question for Delilah...

Why, why, why re-sign Kimi. Surely they should resign him on current form.

Still, when no-one else is available, third best has to do. ;)

[SGWilko]

Sometimes it works and sometimes not, and we don't really have an explanation about why it doesn't work

Sounds like you are describing my 2CV! :D

[Knock-on]

I still think Kimi and Massa are the right drivers at the moment but they do need to be questioned.

The Ferrari is argueably the best car out there. If RBR had the engine alone, they would be up there fighting for wins just as STR have demonstrated.

And this is the crux I suppose. How much of Ferrari's success is due to the car and how much the drivers.

HK is a reasonable driver IMHO and worthy of a top seat. He showed yesterday that he can manage the McLaren and score podiums in tricky conditions.

I put Kimi and Massa in the same boat. They can win championships in the best car but are not the sort of drivers that Alonso, Lewis and hopefully Vettel are.

If a STR with a Ferrari engine can dominate a GP, why the hell can't Ferrari with their unlimited budget and support.

Is it fair to say that drivers make the difference?

Personally, I thought Massa drove pretty well in a car that evidently isn't great in the types of conditions we witnessed yesterday.

OK, he didn't produce anything magical, but as the Ferrari driver with the best chance in the championship he would have come to Monza under intense pressure (both external and internal) and he's never been in that position before. He didn't make any mistakes, he beat his championship rival and was much better than his overpaid team-mate.

Actually, the less said about the supposed "Schumi-beater" in the other car, the better.

The Ferrari is argueably the best car out there. I

Not in those conditions it isn't.

Had Monza been it's normal hot, sunny self, then it would have been.

Likewise, the weather should have benefited Mclaren. With their unlimited budget and support, how come they didn't make hay in the lack of sunshine?

You are right that driver's do make the difference. Only yesterday, that driver drove for Toro Rosso.

[pino]

Not in those conditions it isn't.

Had Monza been it's normal hot, sunny self, then it would have been.



True, everyone knows that this year Ferrari in wet conditions are not very competitive.

[Knock-on]

Not in those conditions it isn't.

Had Monza been it's normal hot, sunny self, then it would have been.

Likewise, the weather should have benefited Mclaren. With their unlimited budget and support, how come they didn't make hay in the lack of sunshine?

You are right that driver's do make the difference. Only yesterday, that driver drove for Toro Rosso.

I actually agree with you that McLaren dropped the ball last weekend. Lewis made a big mistake in qualifying and deserved to start in 15th. Heikki should also have done better in the race.

However, Kimi was lackluster from start to finish and unlike Lewis, was woeful in the race.

Massa again demonstrated his inability to be competitive in the race and I just don’t get this “It’s all the tyres fault” rubbish. If it were, Ferrari would have sorted it out before now so perhaps we have to accept that Kimi and Massa just can’t cut it in the rain.

With Lewis, we heard him putting his hands up and say he messed up in qualifying. In the race, he dragged himself up to the points and if it had of rained when it was supposed to, then he most probably would have won the race. As it was, he had to do a 2nd unscheduled pitstop which compromised his strategy and put him behind Massa on the track. All we hear from Ferrari is excuses.

Then we get young Vettel in a STR with the same Ferrari engine that Massa and Kimi enjoy.

He didn’t make mistakes, he drove his heart out and he deserved to win more than anyone in a McLaren or Ferrari.

He was the difference on this occasion.

Massa again demonstrated his inability to be competitive in the race and I just don’t get this “It’s all the tyres fault” rubbish. ......

.....All we hear from Ferrari is excuses.



On the contrary, I thought, given that the car is not competitive in wet conditions, that Massa was very good.

As for "excuses", why would Ferrari blame Massa when he did the best he could and the tyre issue is known to be the cause of the relative lack of pace?

[ioan]

I put Kimi and Massa in the same boat. They can win championships in the best car but are not the sort of drivers that Alonso, Lewis and hopefully Vettel are.

Alonso and Leis won races in what wasn't the best car at that moment. Hamilton didn't, so let's stop kissing his a$$.

[ioan]

Then we get young Vettel in a STR with the same Ferrari engine that Massa and Kimi enjoy.

So, no a car is only made up of an engine, that's it?!
How low can some go in their try's to bash those they don't like?
Going by his logic Force India should be a world beater too, they use the same Ferrari engine, and also the same tires! :p :

So, no a car is only made up of an engine, that's it?!
How low can some go in their try's to bash those they don't like?
Going by his logic Force India should be a world beater too, they use the same Ferrari engine, and also the same tires! :p :

Ioan, what else would you expect? What do Mclaren fans know about engines?

Their team hasn't made a single one.

They are simply "Garagistas", not "Grandees".

[samuratt]

True, everyone knows that this year Ferrari in wet conditions are not very competitive.

The way you say it feels like it is up to the car, while maybe it is up to the drivers. Have you think about it?

On the other hand, I really praise Vettel for what he did and the race he drove. But I can not forget he was driving a Ferrari powered Minardi!!! And he won, by a good margin and on the same conditionsi!!! I mean in my book Vettel make it look like Ferrari had screwed it up big time!!!! There are a lot of drivers performing better in inferior machinery, and that is what should be important to Ferrari. I don't know if they still feel thay have the best drivers possible, but looking at Monza's race, I would not dare to say so...

Maybe I am wrong and Ferrari confirmed both drivers because only they know how bad is the car and how good are Massa and Kimi that have been able even to get 6/7 wins out of it.

To me, it does make no sense... though I am really proud of Vettel. What a race!

[ioan]

On the other hand, I really praise Vettel for what he did and the race he drove. But I can not forget he was driving a Ferrari powered Minardi!!!

Let's stop this nonsense, that chassis is not a Minardi, it's a highly developed, Newey designed RBR chassis.
Forget Minardi, not even the stuff is the same (maybe at max 50% of it).

What is impressive is that in a race where engine power didn't matter he outdrove the RBR drivers and also drivers in way better machines.

[samuratt]

What is impressive is that in a race where engine power didn't matter he outdrove the RBR drivers and also drivers in way better machines.

This is what I was trying to say! :D
Though engine power do matter at Monza even on a wet track!

[Storm]

edit: errr..posted abt Vettel in this thread thinking it was the Bravo thread !
its all down to samu and ioans post above :\

Kimi + Massa confirmed then....
Alonso says he won't decide until Singapore and BMW are waiting....hmmm

[Knock-on]

On the contrary, I thought, given that the car is not competitive in wet conditions, that Massa was very good.

As for "excuses", why would Ferrari blame Massa when he did the best he could and the tyre issue is known to be the cause of the relative lack of pace?

Tamb

I criticize Lewis, Heikki and McLaren with my reasoning and you just ignore it but 1 word against Ferrari and it’s out with the same old excuses that spout from Marenello :laugh:

Lewis cocked up in qualifying. He couldn’t match the Ferrari’s or anything else.

HK did a reasonable job in qualifying with a P2.

Kimi cocked up in qualifying even with his super-duper new chassis which suits him better.

Massa drove OK in qualifying and managed to finish in a reasonable position so the car can go around a circuit without pirouetting like a drunken ballerina.

Seb did a sterling job in the STR which is a redesigned Minardi with a stonking good engine strapped to the back.

Do you agree with me so far?

So, I would put forward these arguments.

1. In the race, we have Heikki making no impact.

. Is that because the STR is so much better in the wet than the McLaren
. Is that because SV is so much a better driver than HK

Why could Heikki not get more out of the McLaren if it’s so good in the wet?

2. Why do the Ferrari drivers not perform when the track gets wet?

. Why can someone with the same engine and a fraction of the budget perform so much better?

. Why do other drivers seem to be able to drive round limitations in a car but the Ferrari boys can’t?

I just don’t get it Tamb. Ferrari have a huge budget, an exceptional engine and supposedly 2 of the best drivers out there but they can’t seem to perform in the wet.

Kimi was nowhere. Qualified ahead of Lewis but looked like he couldn’t drive with any water around. If the Ferrari is so crap in the wet, what was his fastest lap in the wet race? :confused:

Massa qualified OK but was uninspiring in the race. Surely if STR can get more out of their car with the same engine, then it’s either the chassis or the drivers? I would argue that the chassis is as good as the engine but for all their money and experience, you’re telling me that Ferrari can’t set a car up for the wet?

Lewis drove his heart out. He was sideways, hanging that McLaren out like something from F&F Tokyo Drift and wringing it’s neck. He ended up taking an extra pit stop which probably cost him the win but still ended up just behind Massa with Kimi nowhere to be seen.

Do you really think that Kimi and Massa can continue to use this “tyres” excuse? Surely, a team as professional as Ferrari would have rectified the issue. I just think that they are not too hot in the wet.

Vettel showed what a good driver can do with a good engine and a 2nd rate car.

Kimi and Massa showed what they can do with a good engine and a good car.

[ArrowsFA1]

Surely, a team as professional as Ferrari would have rectified the issue.
According to Stefano Domenicali (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70671) they have one more test to solve the problem, he describes it as "the main issue", they are having.

[PolePosition_1]

I think your being slightly unfair Knock On.

Its a well known issue that the tyres are the problem. The car can be the best car ever designed, but if the contact patch between the car and track is not working, its not going to be fast.

Ferrari seem to struggle getting heat into the tyres, thats the explanation for their lack of wet pace.

Kimi set his fastest lap on a track with a very close to dry line, on inters. Surely that backs up the idea that their tyres don't get heated up? If he can only be quick on inter on drying track, where most cars have to go off dry line to cool them down, for Ferrari, it seem to work best then!

I think Massa did a solid job to be fair, we saw some good racing action from him in what is a difficult car.

[ioan]

I think your being slightly unfair Knock On.

Its a well known issue that the tyres are the problem. The car can be the best car ever designed, but if the contact patch between the car and track is not working, its not going to be fast.

Ferrari seem to struggle getting heat into the tyres, thats the explanation for their lack of wet pace.

Kimi set his fastest lap on a track with a very close to dry line, on inters. Surely that backs up the idea that their tyres don't get heated up? If he can only be quick on inter on drying track, where most cars have to go off dry line to cool them down, for Ferrari, it seem to work best then!

I think Massa did a solid job to be fair, we saw some good racing action from him in what is a difficult car.

Good insightful post! :up: ;)

[SGWilko]

According to Stefano Domenicali (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70671) they have one more test to solve the problem, he describes it as "the main issue", they are having.

Exactly how long are the Tifosi expected to twiddle their thumbs before these guys get on top of this? There becomes a point when you have to draw a line in the sand. Either they can fix it, or they are clueless as to what is wrong.

Maybe it is not just the chassis/tyre/engine combination. Perhaps Stefano should be banging his drivers heads together.....

The same excuses wear thin after a while. Yes boys, we know Ferrari have an issue in the cold - so freakin sort it, stop keep bleating on about it.

It's enough to make anyone see red! ;)

[ioan]

Exactly how long are the Tifosi expected to twiddle their thumbs before these guys get on top of this? There becomes a point when you have to draw a line in the sand. Either they can fix it, or they are clueless as to what is wrong.

Maybe it is not just the chassis/tyre/engine combination. Perhaps Stefano should be banging his drivers heads together.....

The same excuses wear thin after a while. Yes boys, we know Ferrari have an issue in the cold - so freakin sort it, stop keep bleating on about it.

It's enough to make anyone see red! ;)

Badoer will be testing this week, so we might see an end to the problems. Otherwise I expect to see MS getting a call for a testing session too.

[Knock-on]

I think your being slightly unfair Knock On.

Its a well known issue that the tyres are the problem. The car can be the best car ever designed, but if the contact patch between the car and track is not working, its not going to be fast.

Ferrari seem to struggle getting heat into the tyres, thats the explanation for their lack of wet pace.

Kimi set his fastest lap on a track with a very close to dry line, on inters. Surely that backs up the idea that their tyres don't get heated up? If he can only be quick on inter on drying track, where most cars have to go off dry line to cool them down, for Ferrari, it seem to work best then!

I think Massa did a solid job to be fair, we saw some good racing action from him in what is a difficult car.


I don’t know if it backs up that the Ferrari is crap in the wet or reinforces that their drivers are ;)

Nobody has answered the question of why Ferrari, with more knowledge of Bridgestone than any other team in recent history, can’t match the likes of STR, RBR, BMW, McLaren, Renault etc.

Kimi was braking 30 – 40 – 50 meters short of everyone else. What’s that all about?

Massa was in 6th in qualifying and ended up 6th so is obviously competitive. He seemed to be able to live with those around him but couldn’t get the best out of the car IMHO.

I would say that if you put Vettel, Alonso, Kubica, Lewis or even MS in that car, they would have got more out of it. Don’t you?

[ArrowsFA1]

Maybe it is not just the chassis/tyre/engine combination. Perhaps Stefano should be banging his drivers heads together.....
Some time ago the suggestion was made that Raikkonen and Massa were not exactly the finest test/development drivers in the business. It came from within Ferrari, but was dismissed by some because of who wrote the article, and yet Ferrari's inability to solve the problem suggests there may be some truth in there somewhere.

[samuratt]

Some time ago the suggestion was made that Raikkonen and Massa were not exactly the finest test/development drivers in the business. It came from within Ferrari, but was dismissed by some because of who wrote the article, and yet Ferrari's inability to solve the problem suggests there may be some truth in there somewhere.

That is why they called MS to test the 2008 car?

I just don’t get it Tamb. Ferrari have a huge budget, an exceptional engine and supposedly 2 of the best drivers out there but they can’t seem to perform in the wet.

I just don't get it Knock. Mclaren have a huge budget, an exceptional engine and supposedly 2 of the best drivers out there but they can't seem to perform in blazing sunshine without damaging the tyres.

The Ferrari has, traditionally, been relatively easy on its tyres in "normal" conditions compared to the MP4/21, 22 & 23. That means, basically, that it doesn't put as much heat into them. Which is great when "normal" racing conditions apply (i.e - a hot spring/summer day, when most racing is expected to happen).

That tends to mean that the tyres don't get up to temperature as quickly, hence perhaps Kimi's qualifying issues, but as a result last longer at peak operating performance.

In Valencia & Hungary, two hot days, voila. Ferrari have the fastest pace and it was Mclaren who couldn't get up to their expected pace.

At Spa & Monza, where the atmospheric conditions were cold & the tracks were cold and slippery, it was inevitable that cars that can put more heat into their tyres would be better.

However, whilst it is always likely to shower at Spa, this year has seen both Monaco & Monza in unusually wet weather conditions, plus Silverstone not being dry.

Now, perhaps at Maranello the "crystal ball" isn't properly calibrated, but it would have been extreme stupidity to design a car away from the concept of one that was easy on its tyres just in case it rained at Monza.

This year has seen, at least in 50% of the races, a lower temperature than expected and in at least 3 races rain playing a vital part.

That is not a usual season and makes it impossible to have planned for.

Now, had the summer actually been a summer and not some slightly warmer version of February, I do not believe that Ferrari would be the ones having the tyre problems.

That honour would fall on the very cars who excel in the wet currently. I have no doubt that given the Mclaren's ability to generate heat in wet conditions, its drivers would be the ones facing fierce criticism about their inability to tyre-manage in baking summer sun.

Let's face it, at least one of the current Mclaren drivers is not exactly tyre-friendly in his approach.

[Tonieke]

In Valencia & Hungary, two hot days, voila. Ferrari have the fastest pace and it was Mclaren who couldn't get up to their expected pace.

At Spa & Monza, where the atmospheric conditions were cold & the tracks were cold and slippery, it was inevitable that cars that can put more heat into their tyres would be better.



weird conclusion when in hungary a McL wins and in Spa a Ferrari !

weird conclusion when in hungary a McL wins and in Spa a Ferrari !

So it wasn't baking hot in Hungary and Massa didn't have an engine failure and it didn't start to rain 4 laps from the end at Spa then?

[Knock-on]

I just don't get it Knock. Mclaren have a huge budget, an exceptional engine and supposedly 2 of the best drivers out there but they can't seem to perform in blazing sunshine without damaging the tyres.

The Ferrari has, traditionally, been relatively easy on its tyres in "normal" conditions compared to the MP4/21, 22 & 23. That means, basically, that it doesn't put as much heat into them. Which is great when "normal" racing conditions apply (i.e - a hot spring/summer day, when most racing is expected to happen).

That tends to mean that the tyres don't get up to temperature as quickly, hence perhaps Kimi's qualifying issues, but as a result last longer at peak operating performance.

In Valencia & Hungary, two hot days, voila. Ferrari have the fastest pace and it was Mclaren who couldn't get up to their expected pace.

At Spa & Monza, where the atmospheric conditions were cold & the tracks were cold and slippery, it was inevitable that cars that can put more heat into their tyres would be better.

However, whilst it is always likely to shower at Spa, this year has seen both Monaco & Monza in unusually wet weather conditions, plus Silverstone not being dry.

Now, perhaps at Maranello the "crystal ball" isn't properly calibrated, but it would have been extreme stupidity to design a car away from the concept of one that was easy on its tyres just in case it rained at Monza.

This year has seen, at least in 50% of the races, a lower temperature than expected and in at least 3 races rain playing a vital part.

That is not a usual season and makes it impossible to have planned for.

Now, had the summer actually been a summer and not some slightly warmer version of February, I do not believe that Ferrari would be the ones having the tyre problems.

That honour would fall on the very cars who excel in the wet currently. I have no doubt that given the Mclaren's ability to generate heat in wet conditions, its drivers would be the ones facing fierce criticism about their inability to tyre-manage in baking summer sun.

Let's face it, at least one of the current Mclaren drivers is not exactly tyre-friendly in his approach.


I know that Lewis used to struggle but has worked with the team to modify his style a bit and the setup of the car so this is not so much a problem.

If I remember rightly, HK is the one struggleing a bit now.

Why cant Ferrari do the same?

I know that Lewis used to struggle but has worked with the team to modify his style a bit and the setup of the car so this is not so much a problem.

If I remember rightly, HK is the one struggleing a bit now.

Why cant Ferrari do the same?

Knock, see the Ferrari Technical thread.

[Tonieke]

So it wasn't baking hot in Hungary and Massa didn't have an engine failure and it didn't start to rain 4 laps from the end at Spa then?

sure..

But when you say in Hungary Ferrari had a better pace..why did Kimi not beat Heiki than ?

[Tonieke]

and Spa is not really a good sample in this case...as it was towards the end of the race..all cars on slicks in wet conditions..had more to do with drivers skills there than anything else...

[Knock-on]

Knock, see the Ferrari Technical thread.

I can't read half the entries ;)

sure..

But when you say in Hungary Ferrari had a better pace..why did Kimi not beat Heiki than ?

Because the Saturday qualifying was held when the track temperature was lower.

The lower the track temperature and the lower the ambient temperature, the longer it takes for a car designed around the Ferrari long-stint performance philosophy to get the tyres up to the optimum operating temperature.

This is a particular issue for Kimi, who has a much smoother style than Massa, especially in qualifying when you need the heat in your tyres after 1 lap.

Hence the reason why he qualifies poorly more often than not this year.

At Hungary, he was 6th, stuck behind Alonso for the first two stints. Hungary being Hungary, a track not known for overtaking, that pretty much knackered him for challenging Kovalianen.

Kovalianen, who qualified well, had to nurse his tyres in the opening stint so as not to wear them out prematurely due to the heat, but he had the advantage of not having a slower car sat in front of him for those stints. Despite nursing his tyres he could still pull out a big lead over the Alonso/Kimi train because of that.

The problem Ferrari have is almost the exact reverse of the one Mclaren have. In 'normal' conditions, or at least in 'traditional' conditions, the Mclaren seems to lose performance towards the end of a stint as the tyres drop away. The Ferrari seems to be stronger towards the end of a stint....unless it rains, that is.

Just to add...

"The first two stints I was cautious, because at some races I had problems with tyre degradation so I knew if I passed that edge I might struggle."

Kovalianen, Hungary 2008.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69650

[Valve Bounce]

I think that may be a case of the heart ruling the head.

Kimi isn't a Mansell or a Schumy. He just happens to drive a Ferrari.

Cosidering that Mansell is a Pom and very fat now, I can only agree that Kimi isn't a Mansell.

As for who will be chased by the top teams for the future, I think Vettel (pronounced Fettel) has moved to the top of the pecking order after his extraordinary performance at Torro Rosso this year, and his win last weekend. That win was no fluke : he was not gifted the win by either crashes or safety car bugger-ups; he won that race by dominating the entire race weekend.

And I think he will fit into any team a lot better than certain other "top" drivers. I am marking this fellow to take over the dominance of F1 where SchM left off, and this will be in the near future. Do you think either McLaren and or Ferrari have not already spoken to him after last weekend about a future drive? I'm sure BMW are not far behind either.

[Shalafi]

The lower the track temperature and the lower the ambient temperature, the longer it takes for a car designed around the Ferrari long-stint performance philosophy to get the tyres up to the optimum operating temperature.

This is a particular issue for Kimi, who has a much smoother style than Massa, especially in qualifying when you need the heat in your tyres after 1 lap.

Hence the reason why he qualifies poorly more often than not this year.

At Hungary, he was 6th, stuck behind Alonso for the first two stints. Hungary being Hungary, a track not known for overtaking, that pretty much knackered him for challenging Kovalianen.



This is the reason why Kimi has had such a difficult year. Still people dont understand that and invent absurd theories (no motivation, no desire, lost his ability to drive, came too quickly in F1, etc.). And yes, I assume its wonderful to bash a driver if you dont like him. But the FACT is that Kimi has proved many times his true quality in his F1 career and will do so in the future, too. Next year we are back to slicks that for sure will warm much more easier than this years tire. And all of the sudden we will see "true" Kimi again. So, enjoy Kimi-bashers, while you still can...it wont last. ;)

[jens]

This is the reason why Kimi has had such a difficult year. Still people dont understand that and invent absurd theories (no motivation, no desire, lost his ability to drive, came too quickly in F1, etc.). And yes, I assume its wonderful to bash a driver if you dont like him. But the FACT is that Kimi has proved many times his true quality in his F1 career and will do so in the future, too. Next year we are back to slicks that for sure will warm much more easier than this years tire. And all of the sudden we will see "true" Kimi again. So, enjoy Kimi-bashers, while you still can...it wont last. ;)

Before 2008 everyone was saying that Kimi will destroy the field, because the loss of driver aids will benefit him and his "natural talent". It hasn't quite worked out that way. I don't buy this "2009 regulations will benefit him" theory any more, to be honest.

[ioan]

As for who will be chased by the top teams for the future, I think Vettel (pronounced Fettel) has moved to the top of the pecking order after his extraordinary performance at Torro Rosso this year, and his win last weekend. That win was no fluke : he was not gifted the win by either crashes or safety car bugger-ups; he won that race by dominating the entire race weekend.

And I think he will fit into any team a lot better than certain other "top" drivers. I am marking this fellow to take over the dominance of F1 where SchM left off, and this will be in the near future. Do you think either McLaren and or Ferrari have not already spoken to him after last weekend about a future drive? I'm sure BMW are not far behind either.

In fact McLaren already wanted to sign Vettel after last season, but they were refused, so they signed Kovalainen! ;)

[samuratt]

This is the reason why Kimi has had such a difficult year. Still people dont understand that and invent absurd theories (no motivation, no desire, lost his ability to drive, came too quickly in F1, etc.). And yes, I assume its wonderful to bash a driver if you dont like him. But the FACT is that Kimi has proved many times his true quality in his F1 career and will do so in the future, too. Next year we are back to slicks that for sure will warm much more easier than this years tire. And all of the sudden we will see "true" Kimi again. So, enjoy Kimi-bashers, while you still can...it wont last. ;)

If the problems are in the car and not the driver How do you explain that Massa is not having such dificulties in qualys???

[ArrowsFA1]

In fact McLaren already wanted to sign Vettel after last season, but they were refused, so they signed Kovalainen!
Teams always talk to a number of different drivers if they have a vacancy in their line-up.

Bruno Senna has spoken (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70096) to all F1 teams except Ferrari during the course of this year. Does that mean they all want to sign him? No. It means options are being explored by both drivers and teams that may, or may not, result in a deal.

[Shalafi]

If the problems are in the car and not the driver How do you explain that Massa is not having such dificulties in qualys???

Like Tamburello wrote, Kimis driving style is much smoother than Massas, that is the reason why he cant get his quali tires warm enough like Massa does. In races when his tires begin to work properly and he is not behind anyone, he has been quickest driver this year, thats why he has all of those fastest laps. Its not about "he is just cruising there and then puts one quick lap", he just cant go faster because he is always behind someone! But in todays F1 if you dont qualify in top 3, its very difficult to succeed because of difficulties of overtaking. I dont know why people have so much difficulty to understand this...or maybe they dont but its just nice to bash Kimi. But as I said, next year because of the slicks, things will be different. And Kimi is not alone with this problem, Heidfeld has same problem too, and he has looked much worse driver this year than he actually is.

[ioan]

Teams always talk to a number of different drivers if they have a vacancy in their line-up.

Do you know the difference between talking and writing (as for signing)?

[ArrowsFA1]

Do you know the difference between talking and writing (as for signing)?
Obviously :rolleyes: My only point was that Vettel was just one of a number of drivers connected with the McLaren drive.

[ioan]

Obviously :rolleyes: My only point was that Vettel was just one of a number of drivers connected with the McLaren drive.

Yeah one of 3 contacted and one of 2 who refused!
And you point was obvious, make Vettel look like one of the many. I have no doubt about what your point (read intention) was, it was way to obvious.

[samuratt]

Like Tamburello wrote, Kimis driving style is much smoother than Massas, that is the reason why he cant get his quali tires warm enough like Massa does. In races when his tires begin to work properly and he is not behind anyone, he has been quickest driver this year, thats why he has all of those fastest laps. Its not about "he is just cruising there and then puts one quick lap", he just cant go faster because he is always behind someone! But in todays F1 if you dont qualify in top 3, its very difficult to succeed because of difficulties of overtaking. I dont know why people have so much difficulty to understand this...or maybe they dont but its just nice to bash Kimi. But as I said, next year because of the slicks, things will be different. And Kimi is not alone with this problem, Heidfeld has same problem too, and he has looked much worse driver this year than he actually is.

Therefore is up to Kimi to warm the tires... It is quite easy to understand once you think of it... ;)

[Tonieke]

Because the Saturday qualifying was held when the track temperature was lower.

The lower the track temperature and the lower the ambient temperature, the longer it takes for a car designed around the Ferrari long-stint performance philosophy to get the tyres up to the optimum operating temperature.

This is a particular issue for Kimi, who has a much smoother style than Massa, especially in qualifying when you need the heat in your tyres after 1 lap.

Hence the reason why he qualifies poorly more often than not this year.

At Hungary, he was 6th, stuck behind Alonso for the first two stints. Hungary being Hungary, a track not known for overtaking, that pretty much knackered him for challenging Kovalianen.

Kovalianen, who qualified well, had to nurse his tyres in the opening stint so as not to wear them out prematurely due to the heat, but he had the advantage of not having a slower car sat in front of him for those stints. Despite nursing his tyres he could still pull out a big lead over the Alonso/Kimi train because of that.

The problem Ferrari have is almost the exact reverse of the one Mclaren have. In 'normal' conditions, or at least in 'traditional' conditions, the Mclaren seems to lose performance towards the end of a stint as the tyres drop away. The Ferrari seems to be stronger towards the end of a stint....unless it rains, that is.

ya ok..on the dry conditions I can agree with you..it has been shown on several races.even in Monza..when..Lewis not could keep up with Felipe towards the end and on a track that was drying....But in the wet I think it's more of a driver/car combinations...

[Valve Bounce]

Teams always talk to a number of different drivers if they have a vacancy in their line-up.

Bruno Senna has spoken (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70096) to all F1 teams except Ferrari during the course of this year. Does that mean they all want to sign him? No. It means options are being explored by both drivers and teams that may, or may not, result in a deal.

My point here is that top teams would be talking to Vettel with the intention of getting him on board some time in the future, not for the sake of shooting shyte.

[Rollo]

So, no a car is only made up of an engine, that's it?!
How low can some go in their try's to bash those they don't like?


Is this actually a bash?


Then we get young Vettel in a STR with the same Ferrari engine that Massa and Kimi enjoy.

He didn’t make mistakes, he drove his heart out and he deserved to win more than anyone in a McLaren or Ferrari.
He was the difference on this occasion.

Giving someone credit and praise because they earned it mst surely go down as the strangest method of bashing since King Arthur tried to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring.

[Garry Walker]

Ferrari had no choice, in Kimi's contract there was an option in Kimi favour that allowed him to extend the deal for one more year, and he just did that. And I still think it's a great move for both ;)

That is unconfirmed, and only reported one italian newspaper, which to my knowledge, is not the epitome of reliability.


You do wonder whether Kimi's comparatively brief racing career before F1 didn't prepare him well enough. Perhaps he didn't get the kind of understanding of a racing car that others got. When he says (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70631) "Sometimes it works and sometimes not, and we don't really have an explanation about why it doesn't work, and why the tyres work sometimes" it doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he and the team will find a solution. If they're lucky they may stumble upon it, if not how are things going to improve?
Again this bull about his short pre-f1 career meaning he can`t setup cars. Where do people get this nonsense? You learn more about setting up an F1 car in F1 than when racing in lower series.
Ferrari has problems, because the car is good in certain temperatures, and has a relatively small operating window. If they can`t solve that problem it is not up to Kimis small pre-f1 career, but rather mostly to engineers being unable to find the cause.


Let's stop this nonsense, that chassis is not a Minardi, it's a highly developed, Newey designed RBR chassis.
Forget Minardi, not even the stuff is the same (maybe at max 50% of it).

What is impressive is that in a race where engine power didn't matter he outdrove the RBR drivers and also drivers in way better machines.

How do you know the RBR is the better car? Everything seems to point to the other direction at the moment. Both wet and dry races.


Some time ago the suggestion was made that Raikkonen and Massa were not exactly the finest test/development drivers in the business. It came from within Ferrari, but was dismissed by some because of who wrote the article, and yet Ferrari's inability to solve the problem suggests there may be some truth in there somewhere.

Is Renaults lack of engine power due to Alonso being a test-driver or because engineers haven`t been clever enough? What about the other Renault problems? Has mr.6 tenths suddenly lost his ability to test a car or might it just be that the problems are deeper?
Barrichello is quite highly rated as a test-driver, so what the hell is Honda doing being so slow and bad? Is he intentionally giving bad feedback?
Is McLaren being harder on tyres than Ferrari the fault of Hamilton and Kovalainen, or just how the engineers designed the car?

It seems that whatever happens at Ferrari, people always blame the drivers and say Massa and Kimi are idiotic testers and allaround idiots.


I am very happy they are confirmed till the end of 2010, they are my two current fav drivers :up:

[ioan]

How do you know the RBR is the better car? Everything seems to point to the other direction at the moment. Both wet and dry races.

Better than which cars?!
Can you explain your post a bit? I really didn't get your question. :)

[Garry Walker]

Better than which cars?!
Can you explain your post a bit? I really didn't get your question. :)

I understood your point so that Vettel outdrove many better cars, including RBR cars.
So I question you on why do you think RBR is better than the STR car at the moment, when recent races are showing that that is not the case at all. Both wet and dry races.

[ioan]

I understood your point so that Vettel outdrove many better cars, including RBR cars.
So I question you on why do you think RBR is better than the STR car at the moment, when recent races are showing that that is not the case at all. Both wet and dry races.

Well what I said is:



...he outdrove the RBR drivers and also drivers in way better machines.

I didn't say that the RBR drivers were in the group of drivers with Better machines! ;)

[Garry Walker]

Well what I said is:

I didn't say that the RBR drivers were in the group of drivers with Better machines! ;)
My mistake :D

[ioan]

My mistake :D

No problem, even the "perfect" ones make mistakes sometimes. :p : ;)