SEAT pulls out of BTCC at end of year! Not a joke!

[Winchester]

SIX THRILLING YEARS FOR SEAT SPORT UK Following six successful years in British motorsport, SEAT UK has decided that it will not participate in the British Touring Car Championship for the 2009 season. This year will also mark the end of the SEAT Cupra Championship, the popular and highly-regarded one-make series that has nurtured talented drivers on their way to a place in either the BTCC or WTCC – previous SCC stars include Gordon Shedden, Rob Huff and Mat Jackson. Offering the biggest prize pot in British motorsport, this series was first run in the UK in 2003. The Spanish brand’s ethos is ‘sporty, design-driven and lively’. Since the start of its activities in British motorsport, as well as on a wider stage with the World Touring Car Championship, SEAT has successfully strengthened its sporty and lively credentials. Now, with the brand’s image continuing to develop, SEAT UK is looking to broaden its appeal through its marketing strategy. The company will be utilising the resource that would otherwise have been used in British motorsport in areas that will continue to boost brand awareness and vehicle sales.
Scott Dennis, SEAT UK National Motorsport & Events Manager, added: ‘There’s no doubting that SEAT and SEAT Sport UK have made a huge impact on the British motorsport scene. The SCC has proved to be a fantastic breeding ground for genuine talent – drivers that have gone on to participate at the highest level of touring car racing. We’ve made a big impression on the BTCC too, during our five seasons. Our roll call of drivers – Rob Huff, James Thompson, Luke Hines, James Pickford and Tom Coronel, as well as current duo Darren Turner and Jason Plato – have helped secure the 2006 Manufacturers’ Trophy, the 2007 Teams’ Trophy, as well as the first ever win for a diesel car in the 50-year history of the Championship with this year’s Leon TDI. ‘Of course, the SEAT Sport UK team has been essential in securing these successes, and I’d like to extend a huge thank you to everyone who has contributed. In particular I’d like to thank Grant Clearwater and Ian Fisher (Team Principals of Northern South Limited) for their unwavering professionalism throughout our relationship with them. I’d also like to thank Jason and Darren for their commitment to SEAT Sport UK. Jason in particular has been a consistent strength of the team from our first season in 2004, as well as a front runner in both this and last year’s season. Like all of the other SEAT BTCC drivers, he and Darren have also been great brand ambassadors.’ The SEAT Sport UK team is looking forward to contesting the final weekend of the BTCC at Brands Hatch on 20/21 September where, in the Leon TDI, Jason hopes to secure the accolade of most wins this season.

[Eurotech]

Im confused....

[thompp]

SEATFreak is going to have to change his name (again)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70472

VauxhallFreak, anybody..?

[VX_Rules]

I dont see it happening. But im in utter shock. No one saw this coming!

I mean at first I smiled. But to be honest, it's not good for the sport or the fans. The main Big manufacturer rivalry has gone, only one manufacturer in it, (at the moment).

Where on earth is Plato going to go?
Turner won't be back I'd guess.

I'm just in shock. Seat would have won next year.

Just... I don't know!

[Eurotech]

Wel you know what they say - Quit while your ahead(or not) !

very shocking.....

[Eurotech]

SEATFreak is going to have to change his name (again)


What was it before? :confused:

[Dave B]

MG Freak, I believe.

[VX_Rules]

Wel you know what they say - Quit while your ahead(or not) !

very shocking.....

Haha, but they would have won next year!

[VX_Rules]

MG freak?

Bahahahahahahaha. But that is what all Mg fans are called!

[Eurotech]

Quick sugestion - LADAfreak? or go back to MG because Jason Hughes seems a bit reluctant to let go!

[tisme]

SEAT will still be at the front of the grid in 2009... Clyde Valey Racing are coming!

[VX_Rules]

But CVR are running on Jason Potato Oils and we know how well they worked when Leggate used them. :)

And I have high hopes for Eaves, good bloke and a good driver but nor sure about the other, not heard much about him. But we'll see.

[Eurotech]

SEATfreak always used to mention cowards........

[VX_Rules]

I wish I wasn't going to be at work tonight! It's going to be so much fun on here later!!.....

[100%hondafan]

i feel very sorry for the winner of the seat cup now where will that prize go ?

[Rusty]

SEATFreak is going to have to change his name (again)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70472

VauxhallFreak, anybody..?

Cant see that happening either i have just noticed he is Banned????

[tintin]

i feel very sorry for the winner of the seat cup now where will that prize go ?

The prize for winning the Cupra Championship is a race in a works car in a Touring Car championship - not necessarily the British Touring Car Championship.

I think it was clear when the title wasn't decided at Silverstone that this would have to be in the WTCC, because nobody would want to carry it over to next season.

[Ed]

I bet the guys at tripple 8 have a smile on there faces. This week Ian Harrrison said that the team were scratching thier heads to think of ways to develop the Vectra so it would be fater then the Leon next year. I think they may now have found there soloution.

What do you think will happen to the cars? I bet tom Coronel will end up with one of the desil cars next year

[MBailey06]

Perhaps with SEAT pulling out, it could allow a comeback for a works Audi team, or possibly a VW team.

[fabricator/61]

Not likely as they are all in the same camp, let's hope Mr Gow and his team can get another manufacturer on board for next year or the Manufacturers title goes out the door as well!!!!!!!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Not good news for the championship. It seems odd for them to withdraw when they become the fastest and everyone had them as favorites next season.

On the other hand at least it solves the diesel advantage problem.

[VXRDartford]

can't believe it.

I hope we get another manufacturer in as cant see Vauxhall wanting to be the only manufacturer at least there are a lot of indepentants around.

Not as bad as 2000/01 but could be if more people leave the series and I thought the BTCC was getting back to its best!

[LiamM]

NorthernSouth independent team anyone?

[VkmSpouge]

Bad news for the BTCC to see half the manufacturers pull out and a strange decision by SEAT when they would have been in an extremely strong position for 2009. I really hope Jason Plato can find a drive to remain in the BTCC.
I would hope Northern South could continue on an independent basis but they'd have to find a sponsor to plug that financial gap where SEAT's money used to be.
Thankfully the BTCC while lacking works teams does have a strong set of independent squads so we won't see the racing get any worse.

[thetrooper_uk]

I to am surprised as Seat would have won next year fairly easy as they have sorted the car out to race well at most curcuits. It is very bad for the BTCC as it needs more manufacturers in it.

[FIA]

That's awful news, hopefully BMW will enter as a full time manufacturer, but seriously why?

[speedy king]

Very bad news, Why would Vauxhall now want to continue to pump full works budgets in to their campaign if they become the only manufacturer team next year against a load of independents....a few years back someone commented on here how the BTCC would become and independents championhip and they were shot down in flames....well the Gow team needs to pull something out the bag now...

[mattie007]

Perhaps with SEAT pulling out, it could allow a comeback for a works Audi team, or possibly a VW team.


Just what I was thinking. Could even be the new manufacturer that is being talked about.

Didn't someone mention Skoda the other day................

[VkmSpouge]

Very bad news, Why would Vauxhall now want to continue to pump full works budgets in to their campaign if they become the only manufacturer team next year against a load of independents

To be frank why would they have wanted to pump full works budgets into their campaign to just beat SEAT these past four years? They clearly do the BTCC for more than just beating other manufacturers.


....a few years back someone commented on here how the BTCC would become and independents championhip and they were shot down in flames....well the Gow team needs to pull something out the bag now...

I'm not sure what you would expect Alan Gow and co. to do? He can't make manufacturers enter, all he can do is promote the championship to manufacturers as a good way of marketing and advertising. I do hope we get more works teams entering for 2009 but the BTCC has essentially been an independents championship since 2001.

[peewhee]

Very bad news, Why would Vauxhall now want to continue to pump full works budgets in to their campaign if they become the only manufacturer team next year against a load of independents....
Vauxhall have been beaten by some of those independent teams this year! ;)

[Jon411]

Some of the Independent teams are just as good and as capable as a manufacturer team if you look at WSR and GR-Asia for example. Whatever your views on the TDIs, its a shame to see them go, however I don't think that in the long run it will have an impact on the racing - we have 3 strong Indy BMW teams, and decent SEAT (GR Asia) and Honda teams and I expect we'll have teams like Robertshaw and CVR getting better as the year goes on (if they all race next year).

[stevevxr]

SHOCKING....just read the news thread on BTCC.net... can't believe it. SEAT were gonna be bigger next year i was thinking..Making next year a cracking year of racing again... whats gonna happen now ???? we need more teams before this series folds.....

Has the Credit crunch got hold of motorsport now ????

[Gobber]

I wonder whether with one manufacturer (unless someone else comes along, which we all hope they will), TV will be as interested as they have been?
Great shame, the prospect of three manufacturers (even though the third is still a rumour) was seriously exciting!

[TCF]

SHOCKING....just read the news thread on BTCC.net... can't believe it. SEAT were gonna be bigger next year i was thinking..Making next year a cracking year of racing again... whats gonna happen now ???? we need more teams before this series folds.....

Has the Credit crunch got hold of motorsport now ????


I think Seat UK are just looking to scale back their spend in motorsport and channel this money into other areas of marketing !

As for the credit crunch ?

Credit crunch is probably taken out of context with the media !

Look around you, people are still buying things, go to your local fast food outlet, local high street fashion chain and people are still spending.

The credit crunch just means lenders IE, banks mortgage companies are a bit more weary of giving out money willy nilly to everyone and anyone, they have tightened up the borrowing criteria. This is a knock on effect from last year in the states when lenders were giving our mortgages left right and centre, this effected Northern Rock and has obviously effected the UK borrowing/housing market.

People still have money, people will still race and companies will still sponsor, however, everyone will be a bit more couscous with their spend !!!

[CroftPilgrim]

[quote="VX_Rules"]But CVR are running on Jason Potato Oils and we know how well they worked when Leggate used them. :)
QUOTE]


WSR also used them. It's well documented, even on this forum, that there is no performance disadvantage - in fact there is a slight advantage.

[MAX_THRUST]

I'd rather a full field of independants than a full field of Manufacturers, but that said I'm shocked SEAT is going.

Vauxhall might as well go as well. Don't know why Vauxhall haven't gone the world touring car route yet?

[VX_Rules]

I'd rather a full field of independants than a full field of Manufacturers, but that said I'm shocked SEAT is going.

Vauxhall might as well go as well. Don't know why Vauxhall haven't gone the world touring car route yet?

As they would only race once in the only country in the world they sell "vauxhalls" and not only this Tv broadcasting of the WTCC in the UK would in many people's opinions limit the number of possible viewers.

Vauxhall would never race in any other track series than the BTCC. It wouldnt make sense to.

[NoahsGirl]

It's really sad that SEAT have decided to pull out. It's really come out of left field. Hope that JP finds a drive in the BTCC as I believe that is where he wants to stay.

[VkmSpouge]

SHOCKING....just read the news thread on BTCC.net... can't believe it. SEAT were gonna be bigger next year i was thinking..Making next year a cracking year of racing again... whats gonna happen now ???? we need more teams before this series folds.....

A bit of an over reaction. Remove the SEATs from the grid and there are still over 20 cars competing, hardly struggling for numbers.

[Jona]

just thinking about Steve Neals comments about there being 3 manufacturers next season; in view of SEAT's pullout do people think he knew about this? and therefore meaning two new manufacturers?

personally i think BMW will be in next season and maybe Honda will finally put some money into Halfords!

[mattlamb]

Well at least it hopefully means the diesel's days are over in motorracing. As far as I am concerned, the racing sound (or lack of) from the SEAT diesel is anathema to what racing should be about. The sound of racing should be an intregral part of the sport.

Never was a fan of the SEAT team, even before they ran the diesel. It seemed to be a team favouring Jason Plato from the start of every season, not just when he was the only driver within the team with a chance of getting the drivers championship. I really don't like Plato so I am probably biased. We really could do with more manufacturers within the series, but having said that many of the privateer teams are well capable of serving it up to the Vauxhalls on any given raceday.

[Eurotech]

Plato, Giovanardi and Neal at VXR next year?

Ian Harrison will have been on the blower!

[VkmSpouge]

Well at least it hopefully means the diesel's days are over in motorracing.

Over in the BTCC assuming no privateer enters. Diesels will continue to be around in the WTCC and at Le Mans.

[VX_Rules]

Plato, Giovanardi and Neal at VXR next year?

Ian Harrison will have been on the blower!

Dont even joke. Get him out of the BTCC all together.

[pearce]

wow i didnt see that coming at all :O

mite as well give VXracing the championship now becuase with out another manufacterer VXracing iis going to win it over and over again. wish Seat Uk all the best. going to miss the banana car

[Dickie L'Amour]

Dont even joke. Get him out of the BTCC all together.

Someone with an over-biased view who can't see the bigger picture. Plato is a great showman and one of the best touring car driver in the world and probably enjoys the biggest following of any driver (you only had to be in the stands at Silverstone the other weekend to witness this).

If he did join VXR and fended off another team's driver to win the title I'm sure you suddenly be his number one fan!

Not wanting to start an argument but your post sounds like that of a short tempered football fan who's still bitter at one of your team's top players for leaving several years ago only then you see them suddenly change their tune when (if) they return!

[Eurotech]

This is more bad news for Darren Turners touring car career!

The biggest loss will be the Seat Cupra Cup because the guys in it will have to either change to the VW Racing Cup, Clio Cup, try to take on the Seat Eurocup or make the jump to the BTCC.

[VX_Rules]

Someone with an over-biased view who can't see the bigger picture. Plato is a great showman and one of the best touring car driver in the world and probably enjoys the biggest following of any driver (you only had to be in the stands at Silverstone the other weekend to witness this).

If he did join VXR and fended off another team's driver to win the title I'm sure you suddenly be his number one fan!

Not wanting to start an argument but your post sounds like that of a short tempered football fan who's still bitter at one of your team's top players for leaving several years ago only then you see them suddenly change their tune when (if) they return!

I am biased. I know, that is why I am fan of Vauxhall and would rather see them win. But it is my opinion. I don't like Plato. Just my opinion that I'm entitle too, and I know alot of people like him. But I wouldn't have a go at them for liking him, as that's their opinion. And if for example Turner came to Vauxhall in a fourth car, I wouldnt mind at all. Even though I would comment there are many better drivers that could have been hired over him.

But if you want justification of my own opinion of why I dont like Plato, it is his poor sportsmanship when things go wrong. He can never own up for anything himself, it's either the cars fault, teams fault or someone else on the track. Never his.

http://btcc.net/images/gallery/lg_4033_1135.jpg

[VX_Rules]

Someone with an over-biased view who can't see the bigger picture. Plato is a great showman and one of the best touring car driver in the world and probably enjoys the biggest following of any driver (you only had to be in the stands at Silverstone the other weekend to witness this).

If he did join VXR and fended off another team's driver to win the title I'm sure you suddenly be his number one fan!

Not wanting to start an argument but your post sounds like that of a short tempered football fan who's still bitter at one of your team's top players for leaving several years ago only then you see them suddenly change their tune when (if) they return!

And I was there in the Stands at Silverstone, and the Only driver who truly got the crowds respect in every single race was Jackson.

Sorry Sir, But you have me totally wrong as a person.

[stevevxr]

Vauxhall dont need any new driver's.... and we don't want plato at VXR... once is enough....did'nt he cause some bad vibes in the team before with muller ???

GIOVANARDI - TOM O-C - MATT NEAL are the boys we have and that's how its going to stay....

Go away Plato....and well said VX_rules on earlier post's.... :D

[Les]

err excuse me but there still could be another diesel appearing at Brands

[BDunnell]

Do we have to turn this into a Plato-bashing thread? I would have thought that anyone who's a proper touring car enthusiast would bemoan the possibility of the BTCC losing one of its top drivers.

[VkmSpouge]

Indeed, I'm not the greatest Jason Plato fan but he would be a great loss to the BTCC and I really hope that he can find a drive somewhere within the championship.

[wedge]

But if you want justification of my own opinion of why I dont like Plato, it is his poor sportsmanship when things go wrong. He can never own up for anything himself, it's either the cars fault, teams fault or someone else on the track.

You can say the same about Matt Neal. Who does he drive for again?

Regardless of anything else Plato is a top driver and that's what matters. He's at his peak still IMO and the strength in depth of the series I don't think there's any harm Plato staying in BTCC.

[Iain]

Do we have to turn this into a Plato-bashing thread? I would have thought that anyone who's a proper touring car enthusiast would bemoan the possibility of the BTCC losing one of its top drivers.

Exactly. The same happened when Yvan Muller was here. He got stick from all angles (mainly from xenophobic people because he's French), then he left and everyone was bemoaning the loss of a great driver in the series.

I've always had my favourites, but want them to be up against the best - Muller, Thompson, Plato, Giovanardi and the rest.

[VX_Rules]

You can say the same about Matt Neal. Who does he drive for again?


I've never said if I like or dislike Neal, and to be honest, he's not my cup of tea either.

I've always expressed my Support for Gio and The OC, but for me theres no point for Neal even being there. He has done nothing for the team in comparison to what he really should have achieved this season. And his tactics and sportsmanship is just like Platos. Unsavoury. Even if they are "top drivers" and "big characters". I'd rather see people like Jackson, Jones and Doyle, down to earth men, get better drives.

[thetrooper_uk]

I don't think VXRacing will want any other drivers as it would be pointless with the drivers they have on board at the moment. I think Steve Neal could do himself and his team the world of good and replace Chilton with Plato.
I know this won't happen due to their relationship in the past.
Team RAC could always replace Jelley but that would be a bit unfair. I guess we'll have to wait till we see the teams for next season.

[BDunnell]

I wonder whether GR Asia could step up their effort in 2009 — maybe with TDi Leons?

[MattL]

I think Seat UK are just looking to scale back their spend in motorsport and channel this money into other areas of marketing !

As for the credit crunch ?

Credit crunch is probably taken out of context with the media !

Look around you, people are still buying things, go to your local fast food outlet, local high street fashion chain and people are still spending.

The credit crunch just means lenders IE, banks mortgage companies are a bit more weary of giving out money willy nilly to everyone and anyone, they have tightened up the borrowing criteria. This is a knock on effect from last year in the states when lenders were giving our mortgages left right and centre, this effected Northern Rock and has obviously effected the UK borrowing/housing market.

People still have money, people will still race and companies will still sponsor, however, everyone will be a bit more couscous with their spend !!!

Don't underestimate the impact that the 'credit crunch' is having on car manufacturers. The market has dropped off massively over the past few months and business has become a lot more expensive. There are a lot of manufacturers that are going to go through a very rough period over the coming months. The budget that SEAT have been committing to the BTCC and SCC will undoubtedly have been a huge chunk of their total marketing spend. They obviously feel that this could now be spent better elsewhere. Also worth noting though, that say feel that their participation in the series has been 'successful' in terms of enhancing their brand, which is exactly what potential new-to-the-series manufacturer is going to want to hear.


I am biased. I know, that is why I am fan of Vauxhall and would rather see them win. But it is my opinion. I don't like Plato. Just my opinion that I'm entitle too, and I know alot of people like him. But I wouldn't have a go at them for liking him, as that's their opinion. And if for example Turner came to Vauxhall in a fourth car, I wouldnt mind at all. Even though I would comment there are many better drivers that could have been hired over him.

But if you want justification of my own opinion of why I dont like Plato, it is his poor sportsmanship when things go wrong. He can never own up for anything himself, it's either the cars fault, teams fault or someone else on the track. Never his.

Plato is the kind of character that makes the BTCC. Some love him, some hate him, but everyone has an opinion. His name is searched for online more than any other BTCC driver; he gives the BTCC exposure to a mass audience through his TV work and national newspaper column.

Of course, you're welcome to your opinion, but the BTCC would be much worse off without JP.

[BDunnell]

Also worth noting though, that say feel that their participation in the series has been 'successful' in terms of enhancing their brand, which is exactly what potential new-to-the-series manufacturer is going to want to hear.

SEAT are hardly going to say that it was a waste of time and money, though, are they? In the end, they have clearly deemed their participation to be something approaching the latter in the current climate, and that will surely be the same to any other manufacturer.



Plato is the kind of character that makes the BTCC. Some love him, some hate him, but everyone has an opinion. His name is searched for online more than any other BTCC driver; he gives the BTCC exposure to a mass audience through his TV work and national newspaper column.

Of course, you're welcome to your opinion, but the BTCC would be much worse off without JP.

:up:

[Les]

I just wonder if it's Seat going and another car in the group coming - I hope so

[VX_Rules]

I can see A4s coming in.

[PDS]

I can see A4s coming in.

I only wish you were right!

[Dave B]

I'd imagine that any spare marketing budget in Audi's coffers will go towards Formula Two (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70669).

[VkmSpouge]

I can see A4s coming in.

I'd love to see Peugeot 308, Volvo C30, Toyota Auris, Lada 110 and Mercedes-Benz C200 in the BTCC for 2009. If only...

[PDS]

I'd love to see Peugeot 308, Volvo C30, Toyota Auris, Lada 110 and Mercedes-Benz C200 in the BTCC for 2009. If only...
Sounds like you need to visit Sweden!

http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/gallery/v/Motorsport-Photography/saloon/stcc/2008/STCC+GB+140608+PS286a.jpg.html
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/gallery/v/Motorsport-Photography/saloon/stcc/2008/STCC+GB+140608+PS078a.jpg.html
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/gallery/v/Motorsport-Photography/saloon/stcc/2008/STCC+GB+140608+PS465a.jpg.html
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/gallery/v/Motorsport-Photography/saloon/stcc/2008/STCC+GB+140608+PS500a.jpg.html

[VkmSpouge]

Sounds like you need to visit Sweden!

I think then you can guess why I chose those particular cars ;) Maybe there are Swedish fans wanting an Opel Vectra and Honda Civic for the STCC in 2009? Arrange a swap of some kind :p :

[Eurotech]

The problem with the Civic is its built by an Independant team and I don't think Dynamics do orders...

[LiamM]

The problem with the Civic is its built by an Independant team and I don't think Dynamics do orders...

TD don't really have the full-time man power to build customer cars, but I'm sure they could supply a kit of some kind to someone for the right price

[Eurotech]

Can I just say at this point, I'm not a SEAT fan but I will be sad to see them go and I'd love to see a 1-2-3 with Plato-Jones-Turner or somthing like that to reward the SEAT team for all the work they've put in over the last 5 years because lets not forget, they stuck faithful to the BTCC through the hard year of 2005 and I think they deserve a proper sent off!

Come on SEAT - we know you've got it in you!

[PDS]

The problem with the Civic is its built by an Independant team and I don't think Dynamics do orders...
Don't under estimate Dynamics!

I think you will find, if the price is right Dynamics will do orders..

[LiamM]

Im getting worried about SEAT Freak?

Ive not seen him around since the annoucement?

[Iain]

Let's just say he's busy just now..
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/671555196_cbc2b3a0a4.jpg

And if any of his 'friends' make any comments about that, they'll be joining him. I had to remove so many posts last week baiting him and winding him up.

[VX_Rules]

I've been wondering where he is. :/ COME BACK! :(

[m0rk]

Im getting worried about SEAT Freak?

Ive not seen him around since the annoucement?

he's OK, he's just hanging out on my forum under a pseudo

[Iain]

Sorry about that m0rk :o

[BDunnell]

he's OK, he's just hanging out on my forum under a pseudo

I almost misread that last word.

[wedge]

I'd love to see Peugeot 308, Volvo C30, Toyota Auris, Lada 110 and Mercedes-Benz C200 in the BTCC for 2009. If only...

I'd prefer the bigwigs at VAG/Skoda to run the Octavia. A bit under-rated the VRS.

[LiamM]

I'd prefer the bigwigs at VAG/Skoda to run the Octavia. A bit under-rated the VRS.

The Vectra vs and Octavia? This isnt tank racing?

[wedge]

The Vectra vs and Octavia? This isnt tank racing?

From a purists perspective I'd prefer 4 door saloon shaped cars. Personally I've never been too keen on hatchbacks like the current Leon and Civics.

[VX_Rules]

From a purists perspective I'd prefer 4 door saloon shaped cars. Personally I've never been too keen on hatchbacks like the current Leon and Civics.

agreed.

[rwdvectra]

From a purists perspective I'd prefer 4 door saloon shaped cars. Personally I've never been too keen on hatchbacks like the current Leon and Civics.


Agree also. I personally don't find these astra,civic and seat hatchbacks appealling and would rather watch the so called tanks battling.

[AndyRAC]

I'm probably being unfair, but anyway - I feel Vauxhall use a hammer to crack a nut in their pursuit of the BTCC. I can't see what they will get out of beating independents next year - to be honest what do they get out of beating only 1 'Manufacturer' this year?

[Daniel]

I'm glad this is happening. Just like the WRC the BTCC has been sick for a while. It needs to die or there needs to be a major rethink. Things like the wheel of whoisonpolingness are just ridiculous and have no place in a national championship like the BTCC. If there are no manufacturers there will need to be major changes to entice them back and make the championship sustainable. It's partly the economic downturn coupled with weak car sales but this is mostly of the BTCC's making. Back in the supertourer days manufacturers could afford to throw millions at a campaign and afford not to win a race. Now with how boring the BTCC is to watch it would be considered frivolous to spend £5 on a year of racing and take the title :mark:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Now with how boring the BTCC is to watch it would be considered frivolous to spend £5 on a year of racing and take the title :mark:

I can't agree with this. I loved the supertouring days, mostly due to the quality of teams and drivers, but I have just watched the reviews of the nighties on youtube and the racing had less action than it does now. It was common during the supertouring era to have processional races and one dominating driver.


You just think those days were better Daniel because you had 10 more years to live back then ;)

[Daniel]

Professional races? Oh no! My problem with the current series is that apart from your Gio's and Plato's and a few others it's amateur hour :mark:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Who mentioned professional races?

[Daniel]

I meant to say professional racing :)

[VX_Rules]

I didn't really understand that, but I wouldnt say its boring, nor would I say the lack of "manufacturers" is an issue, Look at the grid. Theres many manufacturers. Just not "manufacturers."

[Eurotech]

Can I just say at this point, I'm not a SEAT fan but I will be sad to see them go and I'd love to see a 1-2-3 with Plato-Jones-Turner or somthing like that to reward the SEAT team for all the work they've put in over the last 5 years because lets not forget, they stuck faithful to the BTCC through the hard year of 2005 and I think they deserve a proper sent off!

Come on SEAT - we know you've got it in you!
You know SEATfreak hasn't been around recently one of us has to support them!

[BDunnell]

Professional races? Oh no! My problem with the current series is that apart from your Gio's and Plato's and a few others it's amateur hour :mark:

OK then, aside from Gio and Plato, I'd say that Turner, Onslow-Cole, Neal, Turkington, Jackson, Shedden, Mike Jordan and Jones, to name but a few, have all proved themselves — not least by all having raced against and beaten the likes of Gio and Plato on level terms. On that basis, Andrew Jordan, Chilton, Collard and Kane aren't too shabby either.

I think the depth of quality in the 2008-vintage BTCC is as good as it's been for a long time, and only anyone with a lack of any proper historical perspective on the championship would think otherwise. Looking back to 1990, say, can it seriously be argued that the quality of the drivers was any higher than it is now? There were quite a lot of rich amateurs, for want of a better phrase, in that field. 1998 was a vintage year, but I'm at a loss to say how and why the class of drivers in that year was any higher than it is now — the likes of Morbidelli, Kox, Mansell (with the exception of one race), Harvey, Radisich (the latter two not helped by the awful Peugeot, admittedly) and Bintcliffe didn't exactly set the world alight during that season. Maybe someone could enlighten me if they have any evidence that says otherwise?

The highest-quality BTCC field was probably that of 2000, with Plato, Muller, Reid, Rydell, Menu, Tarquini, Thompson, Kristensen, Neal and Leslie all competing. Alas, that was virtually the entire field in the Super Touring class, so that was generally a year to forget because the championship looked pathetic with such a small grid. I'd much rather see the BTCC of today, thank you very much.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

OK then, aside from Gio and Plato, I'd say that Turner, Onslow-Cole, Neal, Turkington, Jackson, Shedden, Mike Jordan and Jones, to name but a few, have all proved themselves — not least by all having raced against and beaten the likes of Gio and Plato on level terms. On that basis, Andrew Jordan, Chilton, Collard and Kane aren't too shabby either.

I think the depth of quality in the 2008-vintage BTCC is as good as it's been for a long time, and only anyone with a lack of any proper historical perspective on the championship would think otherwise. Looking back to 1990, say, can it seriously be argued that the quality of the drivers was any higher than it is now? There were quite a lot of rich amateurs, for want of a better phrase, in that field. 1998 was a vintage year, but I'm at a loss to say how and why the class of drivers in that year was any higher than it is now — the likes of Morbidelli, Kox, Mansell (with the exception of one race), Harvey, Radisich (the latter two not helped by the awful Peugeot, admittedly) and Bintcliffe didn't exactly set the world alight during that season. Maybe someone could enlighten me if they have any evidence that says otherwise?

The highest-quality BTCC field was probably that of 2000, with Plato, Muller, Reid, Rydell, Menu, Tarquini, Thompson, Kristensen, Neal and Leslie all competing. Alas, that was virtually the entire field in the Super Touring class, so that was generally a year to forget because the championship looked pathetic with such a small grid. I'd much rather see the BTCC of today, thank you very much.

Great post :up:

The likes of Turkington, Jackson, Shedden and Jones would all have been very competitive drivers if they competed in the mid nighties. Turkingtons performances at Brands in the WTCC, against former successful supertouring drivers, such as Menu, Rydell, Tarquini, Thompson, Muller etc just proves the quality of the current young BTCC drivers.

Also, would anyone call seasons such as 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999 exciting? With one driver dominating all season, I think not. I reckon 2004 and 2007 were just as exciting as any BTCC season.

[BDunnell]

Turkingtons performances at Brands in the WTCC, against former successful supertouring drivers, such as Menu, Rydell, Tarquini, Thompson, Muller etc just proves the quality of the current young BTCC drivers.

Looking at it the other way, plenty of great BTCC drivers from what some term the 'golden era' were well beaten when they came up against the best overseas drivers in the FIA World Cup events.



Also, would anyone call seasons such as 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999 exciting? With one driver dominating all season, I think not. I reckon 2004 and 2007 were just as exciting as any BTCC season.

There were certainly plenty of exciting moments in those years (and Aiello, thanks to Leslie's efforts, didn't exactly dominate '99), but they weren't as good as seasons with lots of winners and more unpredictability.

[BDunnell]

Oh, and I'd add that the BTCC field in terms of the teams involved is far more even and competitive now than it's ever been, as well. In the years when there were lots of manufacturers, there were generally one or two, at least, who were well off the pace. 1995 was probably the height of the series' development, yet Alfa, BMW and Peugeot never looked like winning races, Toyota also had a difficult time, and Ford fell behind as things went on. In 2008, Vauxhall, Seat, Team Halfords, Team RAC and Jacksons have all taken victories, while GR Asia, Motorbase and Eurotech have all knocked on the door of doing so. I'd say that's a pretty strong line-up.

[VX_Rules]

Oh, and I'd add that the BTCC field in terms of the teams involved is far more even and competitive now than it's ever been, as well. In the years when there were lots of manufacturers, there were generally one or two, at least, who were well off the pace. 1995 was probably the height of the series' development, yet Alfa, BMW and Peugeot never looked like winning races, Toyota also had a difficult time, and Ford fell behind as things went on. In 2008, Vauxhall, Seat, Team Halfords, Team RAC and Jacksons have all taken victories, while GR Asia, Motorbase and Eurotech have all knocked on the door of doing so. I'd say that's a pretty strong line-up.

Agreed! And as for a "lack of manufactururers" I see Vauxhalls, Seats, Hondas and BMWs who have all won races. Now compare this to the WTCC...

[Eurotech]

...Where its SEAT Chevy and BMW - Thats It

I agree with the two posts above :up:

[AndySpeed]

Oh, and I'd add that the BTCC field in terms of the teams involved is far more even and competitive now than it's ever been, as well. In the years when there were lots of manufacturers, there were generally one or two, at least, who were well off the pace. 1995 was probably the height of the series' development, yet Alfa, BMW and Peugeot never looked like winning races, Toyota also had a difficult time, and Ford fell behind as things went on. In 2008, Vauxhall, Seat, Team Halfords, Team RAC and Jacksons have all taken victories, while GR Asia, Motorbase and Eurotech have all knocked on the door of doing so. I'd say that's a pretty strong line-up.

Alot thanks to the raft of rule changes since 1995, though. I couldn't see a lot of what has happened in 2008 happening under the 1995 rules and regs.

[Daniel]

Agreed! And as for a "lack of manufactururers" I see Vauxhalls, Seats, Hondas and BMWs who have all won races. Now compare this to the WTCC...
Because Vauxhall and Honda basically don't compete in the WTCC at a works level?

How is having 4 different manufacturers winning suddenly so much better than "just" 3? :confused:

[VX_Rules]

more variety. Look at a BTCC grid you have 2 vauxhall models, 2 seat models, bmw, 3 honda models, an mg, and a chevy. Not forgetting various cars that have featured or should have: another vauxhall model, another bmw model, a lexus and an alfa. Thats 14 different models of car, not necessarily make bit still better to watch than seeing 20 seats hum by 10 bmws. No?

[Daniel]

OK then, aside from Gio and Plato, I'd say that Turner, Onslow-Cole, Neal, Turkington, Jackson, Shedden, Mike Jordan and Jones, to name but a few, have all proved themselves — not least by all having raced against and beaten the likes of Gio and Plato on level terms. On that basis, Andrew Jordan, Chilton, Collard and Kane aren't too shabby either.

I think the depth of quality in the 2008-vintage BTCC is as good as it's been for a long time, and only anyone with a lack of any proper historical perspective on the championship would think otherwise. Looking back to 1990, say, can it seriously be argued that the quality of the drivers was any higher than it is now? There were quite a lot of rich amateurs, for want of a better phrase, in that field. 1998 was a vintage year, but I'm at a loss to say how and why the class of drivers in that year was any higher than it is now — the likes of Morbidelli, Kox, Mansell (with the exception of one race), Harvey, Radisich (the latter two not helped by the awful Peugeot, admittedly) and Bintcliffe didn't exactly set the world alight during that season. Maybe someone could enlighten me if they have any evidence that says otherwise?

The highest-quality BTCC field was probably that of 2000, with Plato, Muller, Reid, Rydell, Menu, Tarquini, Thompson, Kristensen, Neal and Leslie all competing. Alas, that was virtually the entire field in the Super Touring class, so that was generally a year to forget because the championship looked pathetic with such a small grid. I'd much rather see the BTCC of today, thank you very much.
The thing is the spectacle of it all. The BTCC has the same problem the WRC has. The cars handle so well because tyres and suspension have come a way in the last 10 or so years. Also.... back when the BTCC was for me at it's height the cars had so much charisma. I mean who cared that the 406's had bugger all success when they were so damned good looking in their green and gold livery? Who could forget the Volvo 850 estate which seemed like it was absolutely impossible to overtake? Who could forget a certain ex-F1 champion driving a Mondeo against all these young guns?

I don't get the whole 1 driver dominated so it must have sucked argument. Ben, I respect your opinion above most others on this forum but to argue that is pure rubbish. If you had the same drivers driving the current cars back then I'd wager that the results would have been the same. Ballasting drivers is a ****ing joke. I didn't watch the olympics but would it not slightly defeat the object of competition if you added 10kg of ballast to one runner because he was better than the others? When you ballast you essentially make it a lottery which is a great way of say running a lottery but it's not good for racing. It's amateurish and a load of bollocks.

Back in the mid 90's if you didn't bring a good car to the track you didn't win and you tried your best to at least make the car look good like Peugeot did. Man I spent many a Sunday afternoon watching BTCC replays hoping and wishing that Peugeot would just win a bloody race but they didn't. But quite frankly it didn't matter because the racing was sensational.

[Eurotech]

^^Thats the longest post in the world^^

If anyone can summarise it, PM me!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The thing is the spectacle of it all. The BTCC has the same problem the WRC has. The cars handle so well because tyres and suspension have come a way in the last 10 or so years. Also.... back when the BTCC was for me at it's height the cars had so much charisma. I mean who cared that the 406's had bugger all success when they were so damned good looking in their green and gold livery? Who could forget the Volvo 850 estate which seemed like it was absolutely impossible to overtake? Who could forget a certain ex-F1 champion driving a Mondeo against all these young guns?

I don't get the whole 1 driver dominated so it must have sucked argument. Ben, I respect your opinion above most others on this forum but to argue that is pure rubbish. If you had the same drivers driving the current cars back then I'd wager that the results would have been the same. Ballasting drivers is a ****ing joke. I didn't watch the olympics but would it not slightly defeat the object of competition if you added 10kg of ballast to one runner because he was better than the others? When you ballast you essentially make it a lottery which is a great way of say running a lottery but it's not good for racing. It's amateurish and a load of bollocks.

Back in the mid 90's if you didn't bring a good car to the track you didn't win and you tried your best to at least make the car look good like Peugeot did. Man I spent many a Sunday afternoon watching BTCC replays hoping and wishing that Peugeot would just win a bloody race but they didn't. But quite frankly it didn't matter because the racing was sensational.

Okay. First point, if anything, the current Super2000 cars are less advanced than the Supertourers. Due to the lower levels of downforce the Super2000 cars probably don't handle as well as those Supertourers.

Second point. Was the racing anymore sensational than it is today? There was far less overtaking than now, and I think the 3 race format is better than the two race one.


I don't get the whole 1 driver dominated so it must have sucked argument.

Well I think most of us would prefer to watch a series where the 1st prize is decided in the last race with the two contenders going wheel to wheel with each other. Rather than Alain Menu winning race after race.

But I agree with you about success ballast. I thought the idea behind it was to stop one car from dominating. But from the first round this season (when there was no success ballast) we saw that the field was so competitive anyway. It's not needed, and it's a shame that Touring Car series seem to have adopted success ballast without thinking about it. At least the BTCC success ballast system works better than in the WTCC.

[Daniel]

The likes of Turkington, Jackson, Shedden and Jones would all have been very competitive drivers if they competed in the mid nighties. Turkingtons performances at Brands in the WTCC, against former successful supertouring drivers, such as Menu, Rydell, Tarquini, Thompson, Muller etc just proves the quality of the current young BTCC drivers.

Dear god..... this proves nothing. I somehow doubt any of these people would have beaten Menu on a good day with them both being in Laguna's. You could argue that Kimi Raikkonen beat Alonso last year who beat Schumacher who beat this guy who beat that guy who beat that other guy and that Kimi is the best driver ever. It simply doesn't work like that. Menu was simply excellent back in the Laguna and although I think he's an arrogant prat he probably would wipe the floor with most of these guys if he was 10 or 20 years younger. It was a mark of quality that back in the 90's the BTCC simply had a good chunk of best touring car drivers in the world.

If the BTCC was so great as people are suggesting then why is Seat pulling out? Why not pull out of the WTCC. Surely it's better to compete in a "world class competition where the transport costs aren't so high?

The truth is no one gives a **** about the BTCC. Even 5 years ago people on this forum used to go ga-ga for it and people used to religiously go to each round and meet up with other forum people and there was a whole social thing around it.

Racing like this just doesn't happen anymore.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkWUCBoe4k&feature=related

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Racing like this just doesn't happen anymore.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkWUCBoe4k&feature=related

That race only happened once.

BTCC can still cut it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZDdA4CQfo at 3mins 30 into the video I get sexually aroused! Five abreast around Church corner :eek:

[VXRDartford]

Dear god..... this proves nothing. I somehow doubt any of these people would have beaten Menu on a good day with them both being in Laguna's. You could argue that Kimi Raikkonen beat Alonso last year who beat Schumacher who beat this guy who beat that guy who beat that other guy and that Kimi is the best driver ever. It simply doesn't work like that. Menu was simply excellent back in the Laguna and although I think he's an arrogant prat he probably would wipe the floor with most of these guys if he was 10 or 20 years younger. It was a mark of quality that back in the 90's the BTCC simply had a good chunk of best touring car drivers in the world.

If the BTCC was so great as people are suggesting then why is Seat pulling out? Why not pull out of the WTCC. Surely it's better to compete in a "world class competition where the transport costs aren't so high?

The truth is no one gives a **** about the BTCC. Even 5 years ago people on this forum used to go ga-ga for it and people used to religiously go to each round and meet up with other forum people and there was a whole social thing around it.

Racing like this just doesn't happen anymore.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkWUCBoe4k&feature=related

Firstly tone it down a bit. Everone is entitled to their own opinions no need to start shouting about it.

Secondly that race was a one off. It was a great race but the racing is not much different now than it was then. The only real difference is more contact was allowed then than is now.

As the viewing figures and attendance figures have shown a lot of people care about the BTCC and if you look at the super touring years there was not a World touring car series so all the big names came to race in Britain. If you took away the WTCC I think the same would happen as apart from the WTCC the BTCC is the best national touring car championship.

to get back on topic shame to see Seat go!!

[Daniel]

You need a girlfriend Jon :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Firstly tone it down a bit. Everone is entitled to their own opinions no need to start shouting about it.

Secondly that race was a one off. It was a great race but the racing is not much different now than it was then. The only real difference is more contact was allowed then than is now.

As the viewing figures and attendance figures have shown a lot of people care about the BTCC and if you look at the super touring years there was not a World touring car series so all the big names came to race in Britain. If you took away the WTCC I think the same would happen as apart from the WTCC the BTCC is the best national touring car championship.

to get back on topic shame to see Seat go!!

On the weekend Brands Hatch hosted the WTCC, the BTCC was at Oulton Park. Am I right in thinking that the BTCC attracted twice as big a crowd than the WTCC did?



You need a girlfriend Jon :)

I know :( Maybe the fact I got aroused by that puts girls off?

[Iain]

Daniel quit trolling please.

[BDunnell]

Alot thanks to the raft of rule changes since 1995, though. I couldn't see a lot of what has happened in 2008 happening under the 1995 rules and regs.

Well, the championship would have died had the Super Touring regulations continued any longer than they did. Schnitzer coming in with a massive budget in '93 was, with hindsight, the beginning of the end of Super Touring.

[BDunnell]

The thing is the spectacle of it all. The BTCC has the same problem the WRC has. The cars handle so well because tyres and suspension have come a way in the last 10 or so years.

We're talking about a very different breed of car. There is no comparison, so I don't take that point seriously.


I mean who cared that the 406's had bugger all success when they were so damned good looking in their green and gold livery? Who could forget the Volvo 850 estate which seemed like it was absolutely impossible to overtake? Who could forget a certain ex-F1 champion driving a Mondeo against all these young guns?

Yes, and who could forget Mike Jordan winning his sixth ever BTCC race (I know he competed briefly in 1990, but you get the point)? Who can forget Dan Eaves winning three races in one day, a great achievement even when the grid was thin? And who remembers a lot of dull races in the golden era that you seem to recall with such fondness? I for one couldn't give a toss how good any of the cars looked.



I don't get the whole 1 driver dominated so it must have sucked argument. Ben, I respect your opinion above most others on this forum but to argue that is pure rubbish.

Where did I argue that? I must have missed it. Or are you exaggerating the opinion I did voice in order to make your own point?

[BDunnell]

Dear god..... this proves nothing. I somehow doubt any of these people would have beaten Menu on a good day with them both being in Laguna's.

That's such a hypothetical point as to be absurd.



If the BTCC was so great as people are suggesting then why is Seat pulling out? Why not pull out of the WTCC. Surely it's better to compete in a "world class competition where the transport costs aren't so high?

You clearly don't understand marketing. Which is better — to be able to publicise victory in a world championship or a British championship?



Racing like this just doesn't happen anymore.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkWUCBoe4k&feature=related

And it didn't happen every weekend back then, either. It was a one-off — that's why it was so wonderful and exceptional. I got pretty much the same excitement from watching the endless scrapping at Knockhill in 2004, Turkington beating Giovanardi at Donington in 2006, or Mike Jordan braving it out round the outside of Giovanardi at Croft this year.


Even 5 years ago people on this forum used to go ga-ga for it and people used to religiously go to each round and meet up with other forum people and there was a whole social thing around it.

Who cares about that when the crowds and TV viewing figures are bigger than they were five years ago?

I don't like success ballast and reverse grids either, but what I love most of all is competitive, exciting motor racing, and I've seen it every time I've ever watched the BTCC in the last few years.

[Daniel]

Daniel quit trolling please.
You mean quit having an opinion?

If you go over to the WRC forum I've said the very same things. If I have an opinion and someone disagrees with it I have the right to justify my opinion. No one on the WRC forum tells me to stop trolling :mark:

In fact here's my latest "I hope the WRC dies soon" post


would love to see Subaru in the wtcc. Hopefully the WRC dies soon.

[MattL]

You mean quit having an opinion?

I think I'm going to go and check IPs to make sure you're not SEATFreak under a pseudonym!

If you haven't got anything constrcutive to say, then don't say it. You don't get a 10-post per day average without spouting an awful lot of crap!

[Daniel]

I think I'm going to go and check IPs to make sure you're not SEATFreak under a pseudonym!

If you haven't got anything constrcutive to say, then don't say it. You don't get a 10-post per day average without spouting an awful lot of crap!
Ha ha :rolleyes:

You can check IP's all you want :) I just hope you don't find my duplicate account under the name of Caroline :p

[Daniel]

That's such a hypothetical point as to be absurd.

You clearly don't understand marketing. Which is better — to be able to publicise victory in a world championship or a British championship?

And it didn't happen every weekend back then, either. It was a one-off — that's why it was so wonderful and exceptional. I got pretty much the same excitement from watching the endless scrapping at Knockhill in 2004, Turkington beating Giovanardi at Donington in 2006, or Mike Jordan braving it out round the outside of Giovanardi at Croft this year.

Who cares about that when the crowds and TV viewing figures are bigger than they were five years ago?

I don't like success ballast and reverse grids either, but what I love most of all is competitive, exciting motor racing, and I've seen it every time I've ever watched the BTCC in the last few years.

Success ballast and reverse grids make for manufactured racing. Sure a lot of the big boys have to pass slower cars and there ends up being excitement. But it's fake and manufactured. It's like combining WWF/WWE with racing. I recall one F1 race at Suzuka (99?) where Michael had to go to the back of the grid because he stalled and fought his way through. It made for great viewing but it wasn't contrived because of sporting regs designed to penalise faster drivers/cars. This is not specific to the BTCC of course but for me it's the last nail in the coffin of the ever expanding list of reasons to not watch the BTCC.

[MBailey06]

Then don't watch it. Don't keep telling us whats wrong with it.

[Daniel]

Then don't watch it. Don't keep telling us whats wrong with it.
I generally don't watch it!

This is a thread about Seat leaving. I'm only saying in my opinion why Seat isn't getting a return on it's investment and is leaving the BTCC which is a valid point. This is a discussion forum and we discuss things here. If you don't want to hear anything bad I hear www.btccsycophantism.co.uk (http://www.btccsycophantism.co.uk) is available :) Why not buy the domain and start up a forum where no criticism of the BTCC is allowed and I promise not to bother you. That's not a dig or anything but if you come on a discussion forum and expect only positive things to be said about anything then you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

The press release in the first post in this thread said this.


Now, with the brand’s image continuing to develop, SEAT UK is looking to broaden its appeal through its marketing strategy. The company will be utilising the resource that would otherwise have been used in British motorsport in areas that will continue to boost brand awareness and vehicle sales.

Which is just marketing speak for "We've poured millions into the BTCC and despite what some see as exciting and close racing" it's not providing us with value for money.

The problem is you have a works team (Seat) competing against and being sometimes by teams with names like Team RAC, Team Halfords and Motorbase Performance. Now what does it say about a Works team when a non works team beats them? Now I know it's not that simple because if not for reverse grids and success ballast the works teams would probably have a clearer gap to the team with less funding but from a marketing perspective it looks very bad. It's just like the GT2 class in GT racing. BMW unveiled their M3 GT2 earlier this year and Porsche and Ferrari aren't happy about it.

£50 M3 beating or even matching a £170+ Ferrari 430 is not what the Ferrari marketing people want and Seat don't want to spend countless millions just so they can have their bumpers chewed by drivers who aren't quite as accomplished as Jason and whose cars aren't without ballast equalisation as good as the cars which Seat pours millions into developing.

[BDunnell]

Whatever.

[VkmSpouge]

BTCC can still cut it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZDdA4CQfo at 3mins 30 into the video I get sexually aroused! Five abreast around Church corner :eek:

Well that's that clip spoilt for me. I'll never be able to watch that clip again without thinking someone is being turned on by the racing :p :

[BDunnell]

That race only happened once.

BTCC can still cut it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZDdA4CQfo at 3mins 30 into the video I get sexually aroused! Five abreast around Church corner :eek:

And who comes out on top? A (then) 49-year-old privateer, rather than one of the international superstars or some ex-F1 driver. Absolutely brilliant.

[Azumanga Davo]

Whatever.

Was that worth a post?

Times change and SEAT has gone. Let's look forward to the next name to join in the future, whenever that may be...

[Daniel]

Agreed! And as for a "lack of manufactururers" I see Vauxhalls, Seats, Hondas and BMWs who have all won races. Now compare this to the WTCC...

Funny you should mention that :)

As of today Chevrolet, BMW, Seat and Honda have all won races. Now compare this to the BTCC.....

[BDunnell]

Was that worth a post?

Not really. Neither was that, I suppose... ;)

[BDunnell]

Funny you should mention that :)

As of today Chevrolet, BMW, Seat and Honda have all won races. Now compare this to the BTCC.....

As of today, a Honda, BMWs, Vauxhalls and SEATs have all won races in this year's BTCC.

[Daniel]

As of today, a Honda, BMWs, Vauxhalls and SEATs have all won races in this year's BTCC.
That was kind of my point :) Vxrules was going on about how one more manufacturer in the BTCC had won a race and I was just saying that as of today it was even stevens :)

[BDunnell]

That was kind of my point :) Vxrules was going on about how one more manufacturer in the BTCC had won a race and I was just saying that as of today it was even stevens :)

I don't think this is any great measure, to be honest.

[BDunnell]

Anyway, sad news about someone who won't be racing in the BTCC next year — Andrew Jordan has just said that his father is very unlikely to be taking part in 2009. I think that's a great shame.

[VX_Rules]

Im bored of this thread now. And as for any motorsport fan wishing for one of the worlds greatest racing series (WRC) to die is just astounding. Lost for words really.

[Azumanga Davo]

Im bored of this thread now. And as for any motorsport fan wishing for one of the worlds greatest racing series (WRC) to die is just astounding. Lost for words really.

It's opinion. ;) Not like he can bring that to the table of the next FIA Council Meeting (or can he? :p : ).

[AndyRAC]

Im bored of this thread now. And as for any motorsport fan wishing for one of the worlds greatest racing series (WRC) to die is just astounding. Lost for words really.

I think you are talking about Daniel - and I suspect he doesn't mean it literally. Having read his posts on the WRC, he wants it to die, but to have a fresh start - new cars, better events, better management. At the moment it's a mess, and is dieing.

[Daniel]

I think you are talking about Daniel - and I suspect he doesn't mean it literally. Having read his posts on the WRC, he wants it to die, but to have a fresh start - new cars, better events, better management. At the moment it's a mess, and is dieing.
Exactly. I loved the BTCC and the WRC when they were at their height and want nothing more than for them to be strong and interesting championships again. But at the moment I can take them or leave them. What I was saying is that the WRC needs to die so that there is a change of management, sporting rules and technical regs which will give birth to something exciting and interesting.

Back in the day you had Renault, Peugeot, Honda, Nissan, Vauxhall, Volvo, Audi, Ford and probably another team or two which I forgot and it was great. A wider issue I think is that a lot of motorsport has been mismanaged in a technical sense since the mid 90's. The Supertourers got specced down way too much for my liking earlier this decade and even S2000's don't come close to the spectacle that the Supertourers gave. Modern WRCars have waaaay too much grip and torque in comparison to earlier WRCars and are boring to watch in comparison. S2000 looks to be no better for rallying other than being cheaper which is something but it still doesn't solve the fact that the spectacle is somewhat reduced. F1 has only been watchable in the last 2 years because Schumacher left and now a bunch of the drivers are now fairly evenly matched. But still there is very little spectacle and overtaking is all too often done in the pits. Smaller wings and going back to slicks will help for a while but in no time it'll be back to how it's been for a while.

I know the automotive industry has been going downhill for a few years and there is less and less money to spend on motorsport campaigns but the chronic mismanagement and inability of governing bodies to make the right decisions at the right times is killing a lot of motorsport and killing the value for money which is exactly why companies like Seat are pulling out of the BTCC and companies like Citroen are looking at moving to the DTM and leaving the WRC.

P.S Thanks Andy :up:

[AndyRAC]

No problem Daniel,...

I know were you're coming from, especially as regards the WRC. It has so much potential - but chronic mismanagement by FIA/ISC has ruined it.

[tintin]

While it's true that the WRC has been run badly for the last decade, and that all indications are that it isn't going to improve in the next few years, the opposite is true of the BTCC.

The BTCC of the mid-late 1990s was unhealthily over-reliant on manufacturer money, and because those manufacturers demanded power in exchange for their money, its eventual collapse was inevitable.

The BTCC now is stable as a commercial entity, second only to F1 in terms of both paying spectators and TV audiences in the UK, developing new technology and developing a new generation of driving talent.

[Daniel]

While it's true that the WRC has been run badly for the last decade, and that all indications are that it isn't going to improve in the next few years, the opposite is true of the BTCC.

The BTCC of the mid-late 1990s was unhealthily over-reliant on manufacturer money, and because those manufacturers demanded power in exchange for their money, its eventual collapse was inevitable.

The BTCC now is stable as a commercial entity, second only to F1 in terms of both paying spectators and TV audiences in the UK, developing new technology and developing a new generation of driving talent.
Perhaps it's stable as a commercial entity but that isn't everything. Bernie is filthy stinking rich from F1 but that doesn't mean the spectacle is actually that great.

[Mp3 Astra]

The BTCC of the mid-late 1990s was unhealthily over-reliant on manufacturer money, and because those manufacturers demanded power in exchange for their money, its eventual collapse was inevitable.


Alan Gow was talking at Brands Hatch and he said that there were indeed too many manufacturers in the championship back in those days - each one wanting to beat their rivals, but only a few actually managing it. The ones who weren't managing it were not amused and took their toys elsewhere.

So although Gow is looking for more manufacturers we defintely won't be seeing anywhere near the amount we saw 10 years ago.

[Daniel]

Alan Gow was talking at Brands Hatch and he said that there were indeed too many manufacturers in the championship back in those days - each one wanting to beat their rivals, but only a few actually managing it. The ones who weren't managing it were not amused and took their toys elsewhere.

So although Gow is looking for more manufacturers we defintely won't be seeing anywhere near the amount we saw 10 years ago.
With all due respect the man is talking crap. If that's his reasoning for why the last few years were supposedly better than the Supertourer years then the man should be locked up for being in possession of grade A bull poop.

All of those manufacturers bar Peugeot had a good deal of success. By my reckoning only Peugeot and Honda didn't take a drivers or manufacturers title in the supertourer days. That's pretty good when you consider that since the end of the supertourer era only two manufacturers have won manufacturers titles and 3 drivers have taken 2 titles each and only 1 driver took 2 titles in the Supertourer era.

The best days of any series be it WRC, BTCC or whatever are almost always when there is a good variety of manufacturers entered who are willing to spend a fair bit of money. To say that there were too many manufacturers is silly.

[VkmSpouge]

With all due respect the man is talking crap. If that's his reasoning for why the last few years were supposedly better than the Supertourer years then the man should be locked up for being in possession of grade A bull poop.

Really? Where did Mp3 Astra say that Alan Gow said that these past couple of seasons were better than super tourer years?

Anyway too many manufacturers a bad thing? Well those manufacturers made costs sky rocket forcing out many of the privateers and then starting to force out manufacturers. But then you could blame the rules (and by association the people who made the rules) for allowing cost to escalate to silly heights.
Is the current version of the BTCC better or worse than super touring version? I think the comparison is pointless, we're never going to go back to the days of eight, ten manufacturers and a United Nations of touring car stars. The BTCC of today is just different, certainly not faultless but has produced good, hard, close and exciting racing. If more manufacturers wish to join in I think they'll find it worth their while however they want to stay in for.

[Daniel]

Really? Where did Mp3 Astra say that Alan Gow said that these past couple of seasons were better than super tourer years?

The insinuation was there :)


Anyway too many manufacturers a bad thing? Well those manufacturers made costs sky rocket forcing out many of the privateers and then starting to force out manufacturers. But then you could blame the rules (and by association the people who made the rules) for allowing cost to escalate to silly heights.
Is the current version of the BTCC better or worse than super touring version? I think the comparison is pointless, we're never going to go back to the days of eight, ten manufacturers and a United Nations of touring car stars. The BTCC of today is just different, certainly not faultless but has produced good, hard, close and exciting racing. If more manufacturers wish to join in I think they'll find it worth their while however they want to stay in for.

I agree that the more manufacturers are involved the more costs go up. It was when teams like Williams put F1 levels of time, effort, people and money into their campaigns that it started to cost silly amounts of money to run a works effort. Just like the FIA could have taken action when Peugeot and Citroen came to the WRC and started spending astronomical amounts of money building good cars and good drivers. I have fond memories of Peugeot's pre-rally press conference in the Sheraton hotel in Perth where the food was simply excellent and then they had a private chef cooking the most amazing food in the service park which must have cost them a packet and probably could have funded a whole local rally campaign for someone back in Perth. The thing is the FIA didn't take action and the rest is history. Just like the FIA were sleeping the people in charge of the BTCC were blissfully unaware that budgets were getting more and more out of control and it was all going to crash which it did.

Anyway I really don't have anymore to say on the subject. I've said what I want to say and I don't feel like I'm going to change anyone's opinion. I see this as the start of the BTCC spiralling into oblivion which would be a great pity. I hope something is done to get manufactures back in and bring some spectacle to the BTCC without resorting to wheels, reverse grids and ballasting.

P.S Caroline says I should use paragraphs more :)

[BDunnell]

With all due respect the man is talking crap. If that's his reasoning for why the last few years were supposedly better than the Supertourer years then the man should be locked up for being in possession of grade A bull poop.

All of those manufacturers bar Peugeot had a good deal of success. By my reckoning only Peugeot and Honda didn't take a drivers or manufacturers title in the supertourer days. That's pretty good when you consider that since the end of the supertourer era only two manufacturers have won manufacturers titles and 3 drivers have taken 2 titles each and only 1 driver took 2 titles in the Supertourer era.

The best days of any series be it WRC, BTCC or whatever are almost always when there is a good variety of manufacturers entered who are willing to spend a fair bit of money. To say that there were too many manufacturers is silly.

Nowhere did he make a comparison between now and then. This is just your opinion.

And yes, there were too many manufacturers for a long time. Six in 1999 was a good number — they all won races at some point. That was utterly impossible in 1994 with 10 manufacturers competing for 10 points-scoring positions. It was no wonder Mazda and Nissan dropped out, soon to be followed by Toyota (who didn't win an ST title either, by the way). Why bother if your car isn't competitive and you might get one point if you're lucky?

Personally, I don't care how many manufacturers there are so long as there are some, and competitive independent teams like WSR, Jacksons, GR Asia, Motorbase and Eurotech are involved. I'd far rather have a committed, professional independent team like Motorbase or Eurotech in the BTCC than a crap works effort any day.

[Daniel]

Nowhere did he make a comparison between now and then. This is just your opinion.

And yes, there were too many manufacturers for a long time. Six in 1999 was a good number — they all won races at some point. That was utterly impossible in 1994 with 10 manufacturers competing for 10 points-scoring positions. It was no wonder Mazda and Nissan dropped out, soon to be followed by Toyota (who didn't win an ST title either, by the way). Why bother if your car isn't competitive and you might get one point if you're lucky?

Personally, I don't care how many manufacturers there are so long as there are some, and competitive independent teams like WSR, Jacksons, GR Asia, Motorbase and Eurotech are involved. I'd far rather have a committed, professional independent team like Motorbase or Eurotech in the BTCC than a crap works effort any day.
I think it's best we just agree to disagree :)

I think you have some good points but I think we fundamentally disagree on what a good racing series is and you can't really have a discussion like this because according to what you want out of a series you're right and from what I want I'm also right :)

[SEATFreak]

SEATFreak is going to have to change his name (again)

VauxhallFreak, anybody..?


Quick sugestion - LADAfreak? or go back to MG because Jason Hughes seems a bit reluctant to let go!

I admire your balls to not just kick the dog when it's down...but from behind...but it's shows just how low you two are prepared to stoop. Thank you for tha.

As it happens I will only change my name when hell freezes over....or when that cruel tyrrant Iain who seems to love punishing people for any old reason starts being a nice person which is considerably longer. Sometimes I wish I would die of cancer soon so I can get away from this non-stop reign of punishment he feels I deserve so much.

Well, behind peoples back I lent my full support to Clyde Valley Racing. I fully intend to keep my name. I will get banned for it but frankly I don't give a toss. I haven't enjoyed as much peace in a long long time.

[Daniel]

Sometimes I wish I would die of cancer soon so I can get away from this non-stop reign of punishment he feels I deserve so much.

Hey hey mate don't be saying that. I know I've said some things that were perhaps nasty in the past but I've never wish that upon anyone except someone that is truly horrible and you're not horrible.....

[SEATFreak]

and you're not horrible.....

As much of a very pleasing shock it is to hear you say that, something which shows a totally new side to you, you are sadly alone my good friend.

That is why I wish that upon myself as much as anything.

[Eurotech]

but it's shows just how low you two are prepared to stoop.
C'mon now mate, its only a joke and was only ment as that. Why not see the funny side?? I do.


As much of a very pleasing shock it is to hear you say that, something which shows a totally new side to you, you are sadly alone my good friend.
I wouldn't quite say he was alone, I for one like you and I think its very wrong all the crap that you get on these forums but you just have to take it.

I do think Iain does have bad judgement on who to ban and give infringemants to because I myself was hit with a penalty for doing nothing but it wasn't quite as severe as yours.

Sorry if you found my joke offensive, I didn't mean it too be :( .

[VX_Rules]

Some of us expressed genuine concern why you had dissappeared, no one had actually said anything bad without your presence. Those comments are clearly only jokes. And obviously shouldnt have been taken any other way.
I just think it was mighty immature that you had dissappeared for so long, and should have stuck around, as it has only given those who you dont get along so well with ammunition.

C'mon and think a little bit next time, and don't just return and slag members off, especially admin, as that way you shall never get respected. :)