Alonso

[ShiftingGears]

His performances in the Renault are less than what I was expecting. Which is unfortunate, because I think he is one of the more interesting drivers (say, compared to Hamilton) and I would like to see him do well. Performances like Hockenheim and Magny Cours where he made crucial errors have cost him.

Thoughts?

[samuratt]

His performances in the Renault are less than what I was expecting. Which is unfortunate, because I think he is one of the more interesting drivers (say, compared to Hamilton) and I would like to see him do well. Performances like Hockenheim and Magny Cours where he made crucial errors have cost him.

Thoughts?

It is true! his performances overall have been under what we could expect. In his favor, the car is also slower than we would expect.

At the end for him is an all or nothing race (the championship was out of his grasp with that car), so he has been risking in order to get an odd result, but luck this year has not been by his side.

cheers

[Knock-on]

It's true that he's been a bit up and down but has been putting 100% into the races.

Sometimes the frustration has overflowed into mistakes and some very ragged driveing but the poor sod is bloody frustrated I would have thought.

Still, at least he's giving it a go and has eclipsed his junior team mate.

[Big Ben]

I believe that his situation made him risk more. he doesn't have much to lose at this point. I don't know if he cares much if he finishes 8th, 9th or doesn't finish at all. I don't.

[ioan]

I believe that his situation made him risk more. he doesn't have much to lose at this point. I don't know if he cares much if he finishes 8th, 9th or doesn't finish at all. I don't.

:up:

[wedge]

His performances in the Renault are less than what I was expecting. Which is unfortunate, because I think he is one of the more interesting drivers (say, compared to Hamilton) and I would like to see him do well. Performances like Hockenheim and Magny Cours where he made crucial errors have cost him.

Thoughts?

I think Monaco defines Alonso this year.

Judging by the radio excerpts he still convinces me he's by far the smartest guy in F1 today, he kept dictating strategy and giving good feedback on track conditions that day but made some dumb (by his standards) hot headed moves.

[Mark]

I believe that his situation made him risk more. he doesn't have much to lose at this point. I don't know if he cares much if he finishes 8th, 9th or doesn't finish at all. I don't.

You go for broke on those situations. If you finish on the podium 3 times and finish 15th the rest of the time people will say you had a better year than if you finished 9th every time.

[Tazio]

Fred Fast Ferrari Future!

[jens]

I've gained respect for Alonso during this season as I've enjoyed his efforts at Renault in which he has taken the car to the absolute limit with true racing anger. He has achieved several wonderful qualifying results plus his pace at wet Silverstone was fantastic until wrong tyre choice. He has made mistakes, but that's part of the entertainment. In a top car we would surely see a different Alonso - that one, who consistently scores points.

Anyway, I'd like to see him in Ferrari in the future.

[93VTEC]

I think Alonso is enjoying himself this year. He doesn't have to worry about protecting the lead in the championship. Every drive is to the limit and then some. That by nature causes mistakes, but I wish every driver drove his A** off like that, it would make for much more entertaining racing.

Hamilton Cruised in Valencia to protect his points. That's lame. I wish we could multiply Alonsos and Massas and let them lose. Hot heads=entertaining races.

[ioan]

I think Alonso is enjoying himself this year. He doesn't have to worry about protecting the lead in the championship. Every drive is to the limit and then some. That by nature causes mistakes, but I wish every driver drove his A** off like that, it would make for much more entertaining racing.

Hamilton Cruised in Valencia to protect his points. That's lame. I wish we could multiply Alonsos and Massas and let them lose. Hot heads=entertaining races.

:)

[BDunnell]

I think Alonso is enjoying himself this year. He doesn't have to worry about protecting the lead in the championship. Every drive is to the limit and then some. That by nature causes mistakes, but I wish every driver drove his A** off like that, it would make for much more entertaining racing.

I agree, but...


Hot heads=entertaining races.

Hot heads also = people calling drivers stupid for being hot-headed (often based on bias against that particular driver, admittedly).

[Kevincal]

The Renault is a mediocre car this year and Alonso has made many mistakes trying to overdrive said mediocre car. That's all, plain and simple. Think back to the 2003-2004 seasons. They were very similar to this season in regards to Alonso and Renault...

[Valve Bounce]

His performances in the Renault are less than what I was expecting. Which is unfortunate, because I think he is one of the more interesting drivers (say, compared to Hamilton) and I would like to see him do well. Performances like Hockenheim and Magny Cours where he made crucial errors have cost him.

Thoughts?

I think your thread should be entitled RENAULT.
The other Renault not doing so well either is Red Bull!

[wedge]

Every drive is to the limit and then some. That by nature causes mistakes, but I wish every driver drove his A** off like that, it would make for much more entertaining racing.

Hamilton Cruised in Valencia to protect his points. That's lame. I wish we could multiply Alonsos and Massas and let them lose. Hot heads=entertaining races.

There's a time to attack or settle for points because as you say attacking on the limit leave you prone to mistakes or break the car.

Didn't most people thought it was a dumb idea and even calling him a choker that Lewis kept on attacking last year in the last few races which cost him the WDC?

When you're in Alonso's position you have nothing to lose, or do you? Renault are battling with Toyota for 4th in WCC. Not to mention how tight the midfield is dropping 1 or 2pts is a disaster.

[ioan]

Didn't most people thought it was a dumb idea and even calling him a choker that Lewis kept on attacking last year in the last few races which cost him the WDC?

Lewy was called a choker, and rightly so, because he choked under pressure, he spun into the kitty litter from the pit entry road and then pushed the wrong button on the steering wheel. No way was it because he kept attacking.

[wedge]

No way was it because he kept attacking.

China - Lewis/McLaren should've called into the pits sooner because he destroyed his inters because of his attacking driving style

Brazil - aggressive and attacking start went wrong and dropped midfield before gremlins occured. No one knows what really happened except McLaren inner circle, same thing no ones the true problem with Mansell in Canada 1991 except the Williams inner circle.

[Valve Bounce]

I thought this thread was about Alonso and Renault. :(
What the hell has Lewis got to do with it?
And for everyone's information, Fernando has been racing directly with the other Renault car driven by Mark Webber all season.

[N. Jones]

His performances in the Renault are less than what I was expecting. Which is unfortunate, because I think he is one of the more interesting drivers (say, compared to Hamilton) and I would like to see him do well. Performances like Hockenheim and Magny Cours where he made crucial errors have cost him.

Thoughts?

I think he is pushing like hell to put a crappy car in as high a position as possible. This causes his to take risks we are unacustomed to seeing, therefore the errors and accidents are magnified (although some accidents aren't his fault, just like every driver).

[pino]

I thought this thread was about Alonso and Renault. :(
What the hell has Lewis got to do with it?


Exactly :up: so please everyone let's stay on topic...thanks :)

[F1boat]

Fantastic driver, but too nervous. On the other hand, he shows that he is unhappy with "points" and wants better, He have lost none of his hunger for victories.

[ShiftingGears]

Fantastic driver, but too nervous.

I think that IMO he is more talented than Kubica. Even though Kubica is far less temperamental, and bloody quick, I am not convinced he has more talent. But he will certainly put pressure on Alonso for that 2010 Ferrari seat.

[PolePosition_1]

I've been incredibly impressed with Alonso's performances this year. He has unquestionably made some mistakes. But as has been acknowledged, this is because he is pushing a car over its limits.

I think simply things, like him stating the Renault was lacking power, as other teams have made little tweaks in order to “improve reliability” but also gives it a few extra horses and so on. The Renault engine has been totally still over the past year +, things like these just highlight his qualities as a team leader.

I’m an Alonso fan, but think I manage to stay unbiased in my opinion of him (e.g. I found it impossible to defend Alonso on his insistence of being number 1, simply because I didn’t really like how MS done this, albeit it was slightly different circumstances). But I do believe he is driving well this season. And shows the difference he makes. I don’t think Renault would be in 5th if it were not for Alonso being in that team.

[samuratt]

At least this year he has admitted he has made some mistakes... something we were not used to in the past.

The sad thing is that his car is not competitive enough to spice up the championship a bit

[Valve Bounce]

There's one thing that puzzles me about all these rumours; why would Ferrari show their hand at this stage about which drivers they are going to hire when they have two perfectly capable drivers at the moment. Is it just the internet media that is starting all these rumours? Alonso is a great driver and he will do very well in a good car; but would he do better than Ferraris current two drivers?

[Tazio]

There's one thing that puzzles me about all these rumours; why would Ferrari show their hand at this stage about which drivers they are going to hire when they have two perfectly capable drivers at the moment. Is it just the internet media that is starting all these rumours? Alonso is a great driver and he will do very well in a good car; but would he do better than Ferraris current two drivers?
IMO, without a doubt!

[samuratt]

As many use to say: best driver + best car = boring racing + championships

Therefore my answer is yes. Fernando+Ferrari combo wouldn`t be 13 points shy of the leader... though that is just my opinion :D

[pino]

Fernando+Ferrari combo wouldn`t be 13 points shy of the leader... though that is just my opinion :D

Dipends on the opponents ;)

[ioan]

And also the luck. Felipe wouldn't be trailing Hamilton if not for a broken engine.

[ArrowsFA1]

And also the luck. Felipe wouldn't be trailing Hamilton if not for a broken engine.
Luck (and ifs and buts) don't count. If they did...had Hamilton not fluffed the start in Bahrain...had he not hit Kimi in Canada...had he not got the drive-thru penalty in France...

Luck (and ifs and buts) don't count. If they did...had Hamilton not fluffed the start in Bahrain...had he not hit Kimi in Canada...had he not got the drive-thru penalty in France...

Luck doesn't count for points, 'tis true.

It does effect outcomes though. Napoleon used to ask his generals not if they were good but "Are you lucky?"

However, you can't compare the bad luck of an engine failure to a driver error.

Of Hamilton's races you've highlighted....those three were all due to a mistake by the driver, whereas the engine failure of Massa was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process (confirmed by Kimi's engine failure within 6km of Massa's) and not driver induced.

Now, taking into account that Hamilton has had three driver-related errors this year (although only Canada & Bahrain were true and utter pigs-arses) whilst Massa has had two driver-related errors this year (Australia was a poor performance but it was engine failure that put him out), then it's fair to say that "luck" has yet to smile evenly on the top two in the title race.

[samuratt]

And also the luck. Felipe wouldn't be trailing Hamilton if not for a broken engine.

Had he been lucky enough he wouldn't have spinned 5 times over the same place at Silverstone too... ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

However, you can't compare the bad luck of an engine failure to a driver error.
The outcome was the same in the cases mentioned - 0 points.

[ioan]

Luck (and ifs and buts) don't count. If they did...had Hamilton not fluffed the start in Bahrain...had he not hit Kimi in Canada...had he not got the drive-thru penalty in France...

Maybe you would see that I mentioned something out of the driver's influence, compared to all the Lewy mistakes you are mentioning IF only you would be calm enough when reading others posts.

The outcome was the same in the cases mentioned - 0 points.

True, but "luck" only played it's part in one.

Massa was not unlucky to score zilch in Australia or Malaysia, but he was unlucky not to 10 points in Hungary.

Hamilton was not unlucky in Bahrain, Canada or France.

Now, if Massa had built his engine himself, personally choosing the conrods or had spent the Friday practice session revving the tits off of it, then he would not have been unlucky, he would have been the engineer of his own misfortune.

But, as Kimi's engine failure within 6km of the mileage done by Massa's and due to the same conrod failure shows, he wasn't.

Luck (and ifs and buts) don't count. If they did...had Hamilton not fluffed the start in Bahrain...had he not hit Kimi in Canada...had he not got the drive-thru penalty in France...

Hmmm....

"I was quite lucky, because the track was clear ahead of me and I could just put my foot down"

http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8577&Itemid=30

According to Lewis, luck was a factor for his German GP win. Or is that different?

[ArrowsFA1]

Whatever...have fun :wavey:

[ioan]

However, you can't compare the bad luck of an engine failure to a driver error.

Tam, by now you should know that comparing apples and bananas IS the standard around here. And than some people are wondering why all the discussions go down a certain route. :s

[Knock-on]

I thought this thread was about Alonso and Renault. :(
What the hell has Lewis got to do with it?
And for everyone's information, Fernando has been racing directly with the other Renault car driven by Mark Webber all season.

Because some people cannot see past the best driver out there ;)

[Knock-on]

I've gained respect for Alonso during this season as I've enjoyed his efforts at Renault in which he has taken the car to the absolute limit with true racing anger. He has achieved several wonderful qualifying results plus his pace at wet Silverstone was fantastic until wrong tyre choice. He has made mistakes, but that's part of the entertainment. In a top car we would surely see a different Alonso - that one, who consistently scores points.

Anyway, I'd like to see him in Ferrari in the future.


There are some parts of Alonso that are Sennaesk.

Some parts Schumacheresk

And some parts that are best left in the past.

I hope he gets a great drive like the Ferrari as we need his talent in a suitable car.

[Knock-on]

I've been incredibly impressed with Alonso's performances this year. He has unquestionably made some mistakes. But as has been acknowledged, this is because he is pushing a car over its limits.

I think simply things, like him stating the Renault was lacking power, as other teams have made little tweaks in order to “improve reliability” but also gives it a few extra horses and so on. The Renault engine has been totally still over the past year +, things like these just highlight his qualities as a team leader.

I’m an Alonso fan, but think I manage to stay unbiased in my opinion of him (e.g. I found it impossible to defend Alonso on his insistence of being number 1, simply because I didn’t really like how MS done this, albeit it was slightly different circumstances). But I do believe he is driving well this season. And shows the difference he makes. I don’t think Renault would be in 5th if it were not for Alonso being in that team.

You wont see many better or more objective posts that this one on here.

:up:

[Valve Bounce]

As many use to say: best driver + best car = boring racing + championships

Therefore my answer is yes. Fernando+Ferrari combo wouldn`t be 13 points shy of the leader... though that is just my opinion :D

Year 2010!! OK, let's look at the hypothetical case where Alonso is now driving for Ferrari, and his team mate is Massa. What would the team be like with Massa beating Fernando? How would these two team mates get along then?

Or

Kimi is Fernando's team mate and the two are running neck and neck through the season: how would things work out in the team?

In either case, would the "Alonso and Hamilton at McLaren" serpent rear its ugly head?

The way I see it, things are OK at Ferrari between Massa and Kimi ; the faster driver on any occasion wins and there is no whingeing about #1 not being allowed to win against #1b.

Would all the funny things and mind games start all over? would Ferrari permit what happened between Hamilton and Alonso? would Ferrari even buy into it by hiring Fernando?

I can see a Ferrari driver winning the WDC and WCC this year unless Ferrari buggers things up with engine bangs and pitstop clangs, which is quite on the cards. But I do not see Ferrari losing a championship through driver contratemps, and dummy spits like McLaren/Ron Dennis did last year.

Does anyone see things the way I see them?

[samuratt]

mmm

I see Massa spinning a lot more when the track gets wet, and I see Kimi unmotivated and breaking some more engines right before the end of the seasson. This means Hamilton getting a lot of points...

Therfore yes, I can see Ferrari not winning the WDC, and obviously, as a Team manager you should talk to your drivers about why the hell they lost a championship having clearly the best car on the grid.

If you think your drivers are not performing at the desired level, wouldn't you change them? Who will you hire instead? Did Ferrari ever had a problem in stoping a car to let the other pass? Did Ferrari ever stop using team orders? Did Ferrari had any problem favouring one driver over the other? Why would that change having Fernando on the team?

And one last thing, had McLaren supported their "2nd" driver at the end of last year they would have won. They just bet on the wrong one. Do you see that happening at Ferrari????? ;)

[ioan]

mmm

I see Massa spinning a lot more when the track gets wet, and I see Kimi unmotivated and breaking some more engines right before the end of the seasson. This means Hamilton getting a lot of points...

Therfore yes, I can see Ferrari not winning the WDC, and obviously, as a Team manager you should talk to your drivers about why the hell they lost a championship having clearly the best car on the grid.

If you think your drivers are not performing at the desired level, wouldn't you change them? Who will you hire instead? Did Ferrari ever had a problem in stoping a car to let the other pass? Did Ferrari ever stop using team orders? Did Ferrari had any problem favouring one driver over the other? Why would that change having Fernando on the team?

And one last thing, had McLaren supported their "2nd" driver at the end of last year they would have won. They just bet on the wrong one. Do you see that happening at Ferrari????? ;)

You should change your crystal ball, it is obviously broken! :D

[PolePosition_1]

Regarding the Hamilton vs Massa errors. I think they're pretty equal, however Hamilton's have had a larger impact on the championship because it forced Kimi out.

And Hamiltons are more visible due to the nature of them, and the extra press attention he gets.

[Priorat]

If Alonso goes to Ferrari in 2010, it is possible that his team mate will be the 2009 WDC. Will he ask to the team to be treated as second driver to the Champion like he asked for Hamilton to be in 2007 ?

[Knock-on]

If Alonso goes to Ferrari in 2010, it is possible that his team mate will be the 2009 WDC.

Hamilton would never go to Ferrari :D

[PolePosition_1]

If Alonso goes to Ferrari in 2010, it is possible that his team mate will be the 2009 WDC. Will he ask to the team to be treated as second driver to the Champion like he asked for Hamilton to be in 2007 ?

Depends, if Ferrari lead him to believe that the WDC will be the number 1 driver, then presumably he may do yes. But I doubt Ferrari would do that.

[ioan]

Hamilton would never go to Ferrari :D

Nor will he win the 2009 championship! :p :

[ShiftingGears]

Well, he's certainly turned his 2008 around, as well as learning from being in a car that can't challenge for victories.

Great :up: