What Citroen & Ford have that Subaru don't

[Fide]

Even though a little hope appeared at debut of Subaru WRC 08; rapidly we can see more the same................. After a ton of money Subaru fights with Class "B" teams and Solberg and Atkinson celebrates 5th or 6th places. Pathetic !!!!! So the question is (AND FORGET THE DRIVERS) what the other two teams have that is absent in Subaru. (also lucky is not a valid answer).

[Buzz Lightyear]

what they are lacking??

flair, out-of-the-box thinking, charisma, speed of development, engine apparently lacking power now, dampers.. and a decent color scheme!

One quick solution... offer Christain Lorioux €10m per year, and that should do it.

[Finni]

I don't buy the story about dampers being the main reason for poor succes. Obviously there must be more than one factor to explain their current form. Shock-absorbers are probably one problem but it's not the whole problem. There is good reasons to believe that even 2004 Impreza would be faster than current model (with it Petter paralleled Marcus + Peugeot and we know that Peugeot was still quite competitive in 2006 against new Focus, so consequently Subaru 2004 model also should have been).

There must be fundamental problems with weigh-distribution and geometry. I heard that Subaru's engine is placed even more forward than before - and we know that even the old model had nasty tendency to nose-landings.. It's interesting to note that new Impreza has been back-ward step likewise in group N. Jari Ketomaa was probably the fastest finnish group N driver with the Mitsubishi but at the moment he is way behind with the new Subaru. Novikov retired with the Subaru and took the old model for rally russia (and then decided to go Mitsu). To my knowledge Toshi Arai is driving with the new group N Subaru and he is nowhere.

It seems to be brutal fact that Subaru will not get any results with current model They need major modifications, and I don't know how much is possible. Can they move their engine backward in next homologation? I guess not.

[Fide]

Finni I do agree with you... and unfortunately with just Ford and Citroen fighting it is very boring. More than that, I heard Citroen will retire after 09 movig to DTM. So FIA should move fast to leverage current category otherwise WRC will be just another forgettable category. I really miss Group B cars............................

[Torsen]

i think it is the engine... maybe engine mapping... it must be the boxer engine still just can't do the things the others ... i've been saying it for a while but citroen just sounds down right angry when seb slams on the accelerator... it sounds different than any other car... i think Citroen is putting more money into devolpment... better facilities maybe?

i do agree its quite fustrating being a subaru fan and seeing them no where near the top... but then again... H. solberg isn't doing that hot lately.... maybe it just is the drivers...

[jonkka]

I am not an engineer but two things are certain about engines.

Firstly, there is very limited potential for development with the restrictor fitted. Some engines may have (very) little more power than others and the difference between torque curves and driveability might even be noticeable but those factors do not explain Subaru's lack of pace.

Secondly, Subaru has wildly different configuration from anyone else because of the boxer engine. It is very low but very wide and most importantly, it cannot be canted backwards like transverse in-line engines of C4 and Focus can be. Consequently, centre of the gravity of Impreza is inherently further forward than the opposition. How well Prodrive has managed to offset this by relocating everything else towards back is difficult to ascertain but when their opposition is going for as central CoG as possible by moving so small components as switches or wiring looms, I'd say they are fighting a losing battle.

In the other words, hiring Loriaux might not help as there is only so much that can be achieved with the base car.

[koko0703]

What Subaru doesn't have compared with Citroen and Ford is one question, but another question is what Subaru has lost. Although Impreza WRC2005 only won one event (excluding Wales GB 2005), WRC2005 could fight for the victory against Citroen and Peugeot in 2005. Subaru went down hill with the introduction of WRC2006 and never recovered since then.

If I remember correctly, the biggest difference between WRC2005 and WRC2006 is that 2006 model has passive diff, and I start to wonder if diff setup, mapping, or whatever related to diff is the factor that makes difference between top boys and Subaru. Impreza had been almost even with other top teams until 2005 so it's hard to imagine something haven't changed makes that much difference in one year.

Subaru has been crying about dumpers last couple years but I start to doubt the problem is really the dumper.

[Mirek]

jonkka: It is possible to move center of gravity even with longitudinal engine infront of front axle but what is not possible to change is huge polar moment of innertia of such engine. Perfect example was Audi Quattro S1. It had Some 55/45 weight distribution but it was very understeery due to big innertia of the nose. Peugeot 205 or Lancia S4 had much worse weight distribution but as they had middle engines, they had very small innertia (everything close to centre of gravity). I think that is one realy big problem of Subaru.

Another one is boxer itself in my opinion. You know when You have one turbo but two cylinder heads far from each other, You lose more pressure in pipes in my opinion. Two cylinder heads mean longer exhaust, longer cables, longer pipes, bigger engine block, that all at least is heavy. Another thing is engine configuration. If You look at bore x stroke numbers, Subaru is completely different to any other car. They have large bore but very small stroke. It would be good for hi-rews engine in my opinion but hi-rews are something impossible with restrictor. All opponents are using much bigger stroke giving them huge torque in low rpm.

[jonkka]

]jonkka: It is possible to move center of gravity even with longitudinal engine infront of front axle but what is not possible to change is huge polar moment of innertia of such engine.

Of course it is possible but everything Subaru engineers can do in that respect is something that their counterparts in Ford and Citroen can do as well - plus that their engine is further back and tilted backwards. So, it is an advantage that no Subaru effort can nullify, meaning centre of gravity on Citroen and Ford is more ideal (as close to midpoint longitudinally, as close to center laterally and as low as possible).


]Perfect example was Audi Quattro S1. It had Some 55/45 weight distribution but it was very understeery due to big innertia of the nose.

I don't dispute the issue, just correct the facts. S1's weight distribution was at 52:48 compared to 58:42 of Sport quattro and even worse in Group 4 quattro A1/A2.

[A.F.F.]

I couldn't be all due the engine. Remember the "snake incident" ?? What was the reason for that? For a long period of time with the 2006 --> model, the handling was worse than bad.

[Finni]

Funniest thing is the amount of inflexibility and stubbornes which has prevented to solve basic problems during the period of three years.

It's complitely stupid to say that engine power is their problem. It's not. If the engine was the main problems there would have to be approximately 50 bhp power disadvantage to other teams. That's really not the case. Last year in Germany Atkinson drove beautiful stage wins which is impossible if the engine is poor (Germany really highlights engine power).

[Torsen]

i think looking at it now... chris was at least decent.. holding his own... petter.. no idea whats going on there... he's not getting any air time or anything to explain whats going on...

through all of this .. leads me to 1 question... how much diff. are the abu dabi fords compared to stobart / muncie? is there really that much 'more' put into the top guy's car's.. or is it there talent?

[Mirek]

It's complitely stupid to say that engine power is their problem. It's not. If the engine was the main problems there would have to be approximately 50 bhp power disadvantage to other teams. That's really not the case. Last year in Germany Atkinson drove beautiful stage wins which is impossible if the engine is poor (Germany really highlights engine power).

Only wineyeards. On fast stages like on Baumholder engine is not that much important. For example Fabia WRC which is very weak compared to new WRC especialy on torque. Germany is not problem, Kopecký usualy lost only in wineyeards where there are many hairpins uphill. Compared to that he wasn't able to make any good results on Corsica and complained about torque which they simply didn't have.

[Mirek]

Of course it is possible but everything Subaru engineers can do in that respect is something that their counterparts in Ford and Citroen can do as well - plus that their engine is further back and tilted backwards. So, it is an advantage that no Subaru effort can nullify, meaning centre of gravity on Citroen and Ford is more ideal (as close to midpoint longitudinally, as close to center laterally and as low as possible).

I don't dispute the issue, just correct the facts. S1's weight distribution was at 52:48 compared to 58:42 of Sport quattro and even worse in Group 4 quattro A1/A2.

I still think that big nose innertia is much bigger problem than weight distribution itself ;)

[coldrive]

What Citroen & Ford have that Subaru don't?

The capability to perform on Friday and Saturday. Finland, Germany and New Zealand show the new Impreza is close to respectable on a Sunday. Maybe they should give up rallying and try racing, although the grid positions might not be too good.

[ste898]

Should this thread not read what Citroen have got and Ford /Subaru don't?

[Buzz Lightyear]

What Citroen & Ford have that Subaru don't?

The capability to perform on Friday and Saturday. Finland, Germany and New Zealand show the new Impreza is close to respectable on a Sunday. Maybe they should give up rallying and try racing, although the grid positions might not be too good.

by sunday other drivers are slowing down, or at least driving with a degree of caution, but the subaru drivers just driving the same pace. i dont think you can read anything into their sunday times.

[Torsen]

sunday stage times mean nothing

[AndyRAC]

By Subaru we should say Prodrive - who are involved in other Motorsports - which may affect their WRC programme. GT1's, LMP1's etc

[Zico]

Should this thread not read what Citroen have got and Ford /Subaru don't?

You think the Citroen is a better car than the Ford? Please elaborate..

[harvick#1]

You think the Citroen is a better car than the Ford? Please elaborate..

the cars are close to equal Citroen just has the best driver in the world :D

and Sordo is coming to his own and could win in Spain or France

[Donney]

I couldn't be all due the engine. Remember the "snake incident" ?? What was the reason for that? For a long period of time with the 2006 --> model, the handling was worse than bad.


I don't, what was that thing?

I am not very strong on engineering and those matters, but I remember pentti saying the main problem is the boxer engine and how far front it is placed creating a huge amount of inertia, if we add to that equation the fact that it is too heavy, we have a possible source for their lack of results. It looks like the whole car is built around a puzzle which can't be solved nowadays.

[A.F.F.]

I don't, what was that thing?



Petter and Chris, but mostly Petter suffered from weird handling problem which the team called "snake". The car would meander even on straight and Petter had to steer it all the time. That's why he could drive nowhere near the limit. First my honest opinion was that the snake was in Petter's head but then Chirs also complained about it. Finally I watched an excellent document series from Discovery channel where they followed Subaru Rally Team and in that series they tried to locate the reason why the car acted snakish. It was couple years ago or so... you really don't rememberi t ?

[Donney]

No, I don't, I remember the constant complaining about the poor handling but the "snake" does not ring any bell, thanks!!! :up:

[Tomi]

They have WRC cars that drivers with common sence uses.

[Karukera]

That's a puzzling case.

Ford and Citroën certainly don't have that Subaru's inconsistency performance curve.
Atkinson and Solberg are able to perform very well in a rally, although rarely if never with both cars, then being completely lost in the next event regardless to the surface and with no apparent or obvious reason.

Despite Sordo's retirement in MC 08 Chris drove superbly in the last 2 editions, he acheived podiums earlier this year with the old car on gravel while Solberg had massive problems with people logically tempted to say Solberg was the problem, until Atkinson had unsolvable problems himself.

Although the latest Sub evolution didn't show any significant pace in Greece 08, it still took a brilliant podium with Solberg thanks to the usual attrition toll there. Later on, Atkinson took for the same reason a remarkable 3rd in Finland !

So there's reliability and decent performances but it can also suddenly vanish and the car become a nightmare to drive.

So why is it so erratic with the blues ?

Sounds more like set up issues probably mixed up with many other little details than the car itself.

Shouldn't the Japanese get rid of Poordrive and hire a company seriously involved in rallying.

[DonJippo]

Petter and Chris, but mostly Petter suffered from weird handling problem which the team called "snake". The car would meander even on straight and Petter had to steer it all the time. That's why he could drive nowhere near the limit. First my honest opinion was that the snake was in Petter's head but then Chirs also complained about it. Finally I watched an excellent document series from Discovery channel where they followed Subaru Rally Team and in that series they tried to locate the reason why the car acted snakish. It was couple years ago or so... you really don't rememberi t ?

When have we heard a non works Subaru driver complaining this same issue?

[Halvis]

When have we heard a non works Subaru driver complaining this same issue?

I remember it clearly aswell, it was very easy to spot, the car wobbled from side to side on straights, and on inboard camera you could see Petter struggling to keep the car in the line, steering all the time.

Has any non works Subaru driven that model of Impreza WRC car? Not as I remember, all the privateers use older Imprezas, doesn't they? Or use other dampers, as Østberg? Not sure of this, but that would be a logical reason why no others have complained about it.

[A.F.F.]

When have we heard a non works Subaru driver complaining this same issue?

Never. But how many non works Subaru drivers there have been ?

Plus, you watched the same document series, right? Didn't they find some improvement to that strange behaviour? I just don't remember did they ever find the reason for it?

[Tomi]

I remember it clearly aswell, it was very easy to spot, the car wobbled from side to side on straights, and on inboard camera you could see Petter struggling to keep the car in the line, steering all the time.

Maybe it would help if they would take off every gimmick what a driver can use on the stage to change drivability, then he maybe would consentrate on driving instead of screwing up the car.

[Sulland]

1. Ditch the Boxer
2. Use Reiger as Østberg

Voila; 50 more hp and a drivable car = Petter will win again !

[playmo]

Seems not as "easy" to drive as the Focus or C4, and that same thing seems with the SX4, a bit nervous you could say. Besides it seems tome too that lacks low end power (when driving away from a slow corner).
Completely clueless on what could it be the cause tough.

[tmx]

No, I don't, I remember the constant complaining about the poor handling but the "snake" does not ring any bell, thanks!!! :up: From the tv series 'engineering the world rally" Some kind of friction in the suspension. They thought they sorted it out by the end of the year, but didn't seem to be the case. It was not the drivers who talks about it, but the Prodrive engineers. Funny thing is how they show Stephan Sarrazin dream of driving wrc team being shattered. But I thought no leave him with his circuit racing career where he could be more successful.

[Donney]

Thinking about it, didn't they blame the steering rack overheating while on the stages, causing the car to handle as it did?

[Halvis]

Seems not as "easy" to drive as the Focus or C4, and that same thing seems with the SX4, a bit nervous you could say. Besides it seems tome too that lacks low end power (when driving away from a slow corner).
Completely clueless on what could it be the cause tough.

I agree, it looks very slow out of corners - which also suits what Petter said that they were competetive on fast sections, but lost a lot on twisty sections/stages.

[Gard]

When have we heard a non works Subaru driver complaining this same issue?
This was actually on both petters car and to some extent Atkos. Prodrive tried saving weight by redusing welds or something. Atkos car was welded a bit better and Petter also pushed harder and the welds startet cracking up. At least the chassi got wery loose after a bit of use. Probably not the proudest moment for Prodrive

[Viking]

This was actually on both petters car and to some extent Atkos. Prodrive tried saving weight by redusing welds or something. Atkos car was welded a bit better and Petter also pushed harder and the welds startet cracking up. At least the chassi got wery loose after a bit of use. Probably not the proudest moment for Prodrive

Petter got new chassis when Atko got rebuild ones hence more welding, but only part of the problem, also gearbox (center diff) and damper related.

[koko0703]

I agree, it looks very slow out of corners - which also suits what Petter said that they were competetive on fast sections, but lost a lot on twisty sections/stages.

I also agree.

I forgot where I saw the footage but one of the testing video.... The car approach one corner with decent speed and slows down entering the corner. But nothing happens afterward! I mean the car just kinda coast out of the corner rather than accelerate out of the corner. You may be able to relate the lack of power out of corner to handling (not being able to transfer engine power to the wheel correctly) but Subaru must've lost lots of time exiting corners.

[Saabaru]

What does Citroen have that Ford and Subaru doesn't? Easy: Loeb!

[pentti]

Two problems here.The engine location(slow to turn) and dambers.
Snake effect comes then driver reacts quicker than center diff.

[OldF]

No, I don't, I remember the constant complaining about the poor handling but the "snake" does not ring any bell, thanks!!! :up:

From here you can download the program series (scroll down almost to the bottom). If I remember right it was in the last episode they told that they’ve found the problem.

http://rally.stanis.info/en/wrc/

[Donney]

Thanks!!!!