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ioan
25th August 2008, 17:41
But not in the eyes of the 61-year-old who said: "It always amuses me to see these motorsport magazine evaluations of drivers.

"For me you have to take into consideration how long a driver has been in Formula One when you evaluate his performance.

"For no other reason that puts Lewis top of the heap. He is the best in Formula One at the moment.

"If you take into account how little experience he has had, that's the bit that gives him the edge.

"It doesn't mean to say he is particularly quicker than the others, or he has dominated, it's just you have to take how long they have been involved in the sport as one of the values."

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4047504,00.html

How about Vettel, Ron?
He's only been in F1 about as long as Lewy, and last week end was the fastest guy out there, just take a look at the fastest lap times posted during the qualis. All this in a STR, not a McLaren!

BDunnell
25th August 2008, 17:53
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4047504,00.html

How about Vettel, Ron?
He's only been in F1 about as long as Lewy, and last week end was the fastest guy out there, just take a look at the fastest lap times posted during the qualis. All this in a STR, not a McLaren!

Well, if you were in his shoes, would you do anything other than talk up your own driver(s)? 'Team boss says his World Championship-leading driver is the best' is hardly news, is it?

By the way, I bet you're pleased to have posted Ron's opinion twice! ;)

Sleeper
25th August 2008, 18:11
I'm not sure whats less surprising, Ron talking up his driver or Ioan trying to make it out as a bad thing, just because its Lewis and McLaren.

ioan
25th August 2008, 18:37
I'm not sure whats less surprising, Ron talking up his driver or Ioan trying to make it out as a bad thing, just because its Lewis and McLaren.

Who said it's a bad thing?
I just brought up another example of a driver based on the same criteria Ron used.
Why the need to attack the poster instead of talking about the subject at hand?

Corny
25th August 2008, 18:37
Like last year with the spionage affair, he's lying :D

ioan
25th August 2008, 18:47
Well, if you were in his shoes, would you do anything other than talk up your own driver(s)? 'Team boss says his World Championship-leading driver is the best' is hardly news, is it?

For once he gave some reasons to his thinking, not excellent but at least he tried.

The part I liked most was:


"What he is driving is immaterial," insisted Dennis. :rotflmao:



By the way, I bet you're pleased to have posted Ron's opinion twice! ;)

In fact I wasn't happy at all, as it looked like a beginner who can't post in a forum! :D

truefan72
25th August 2008, 20:54
...Ioans' day all over again

LOL

BDunnell
25th August 2008, 21:35
So, Ron thinks it's immaterial what Hamilton is driving. How do we know whether this is right or wrong? The same can be said of countless other drivers in recent times.

wedge
25th August 2008, 21:40
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4047504,00.html

How about Vettel, Ron?
He's only been in F1 about as long as Lewy, and last week end was the fastest guy out there, just take a look at the fastest lap times posted during the qualis. All this in a STR, not a McLaren!

Vettel? Didn't he struggle a bit against Liuzzi and only made his mark in the rain. Only now and recently do we see glimmers of something special.

Hamilton didn't have much trouble catching Alonso within 6 months.

But anyway, Ron is talking up his team, trying to get an extra psychological edge, in the same the media will ask Rob Smedley similar question - will Massa win WDC, the better driver: YES. You win as a team, lose as a team.

F1boat
26th August 2008, 07:03
Ni suprprise. In 2005 he said how better is Kimi than the others, then, when he signed Alonso, Fred become the best and now it is Lewis. I think that he said that Hakkinen and DC are the best drivers, when they were driving for him, during the MS era...
So, I am not surprised. And as much as I dislike Hamilton, he is really good and leads the world championship, so what Ron said is not preposterous. I honestly think that Alonso is the best driver in F1, however.

CNR
26th August 2008, 07:35
how long will it be before they try to shaft lewis like they did Mikka Hakkinen

ArrowsFA1
26th August 2008, 07:38
'Team boss says his World Championship-leading driver is the best' is hardly news, is it?
No it's not.

harsha
26th August 2008, 07:51
it's natural for a team boss to praise his driver...increases the drivers confidence too...

any team boss would have done the same thing

PolePosition_1
26th August 2008, 09:45
Lol poor Ron can't win.

He's hardly going to say Kimi is the best driver in F1.

He just giving his opinion, he's entitled to it, like we are to ours. Respect eachothers opinions.

We can disagree, but shouldn't dismiss his opinion.

Tazio
26th August 2008, 11:00
how long will it be before they try to shaft lewis like they did Mikka Hakkinen That's a good question! Fred will evetually find his way to Ferrari (relacing Kimi 2010),
Hamilton may replace FM after(after FM) he wins a title or two ! :p :
Hey it could happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not :)

Valve Bounce
26th August 2008, 11:13
So, Ron thinks it's immaterial what Hamilton is driving. How do we know whether this is right or wrong? The same can be said of countless other drivers in recent times.

I'd love to see Lewis in the Honda. Ron wouldn't recognise him from the monkeys at the back of the field. :D

Big Ben
26th August 2008, 12:06
aren't immaterial cars illegal?

ioan
26th August 2008, 12:51
Only if they are red! ;)

MrJan
26th August 2008, 13:02
A rich man buys a driver aged ten and pays for 13 years of motorsport, turns out that the rich man thinks the driver is pretty good :eek: Wooooo!!! That's just arrogance surely :rolleyes: If Ferrari came out and said that Kimi was the best then this thread wouldn't exist.

Valve Bounce
26th August 2008, 13:33
A rich man buys a driver aged ten and pays for 13 years of motorsport, turns out that the rich man thinks the driver is pretty good :eek: Wooooo!!! That's just arrogance surely :rolleyes: If Ferrari came out and said that Kimi was the best then this thread wouldn't exist.

....................., but if ioan came out and said Massa was the best, we'd have a lively discussion. :up:

ioan
26th August 2008, 13:56
If Ferrari came out and said that Kimi was the best then this thread wouldn't exist.

You think so! :D

ioan
26th August 2008, 13:57
....................., but if ioan came out and said Massa was the best, we'd have a lively discussion. :up:

Or a public decapitation.

Knock-on
26th August 2008, 14:44
Or a public decapitation.


Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.... no matter how ill-informed, misguided and inaccurate it might be ;) :p :laugh:

ioan
26th August 2008, 15:03
Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.... no matter how ill-informed, misguided and inaccurate it might be ;) :p :laugh:

Lucky you! :rotflmao:

Valve Bounce
27th August 2008, 00:24
Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.... no matter how ill-informed, misguided and inaccurate it might be ;) :laugh:
:p : :D :rotflmao:

ArrowsFA1
27th August 2008, 11:36
ioan's example of Vettel is a good one. Clearly he is a very talented driver. However, IMHO Ron is perfectly entitled to his view and from what we've seen so far, could well be right.

Of course Hamilton stepped right into a competitive car from the very start of his F1 career. The likes of Vettel, Raikkonen and Michael Schumacher didn't have that opportunity because a winning team did not take the risk of signing them. With Hamilton, McLaren did take that risk. It could have backfired on them, but it hasn't. The reason it hasn't is the reason why Ron rates Lewis so highly.

Proving that the likes of Vettel, Raikkonen and Schumacher could have done what Hamilton has done is impossible. We can only speculate what might have happened to them, but that in no way detracts from what Hamilton has achieved. He is an exceptional talent.

PolePosition_1
27th August 2008, 11:45
Of course Hamilton stepped right into a competitive car from the very start of his F1 career. The likes of Vettel, Raikkonen and Michael Schumacher didn't have that opportunity because a winning team did not take the risk of signing them.

Well, Schumacher had a race winning car in his first full year of F1.

BDunnell
27th August 2008, 12:35
Well, Schumacher had a race winning car in his first full year of F1.

Yes, but it wasn't as good compared to the best opposition as was the McLaren that Hamilton had last year.

Knock-on
27th August 2008, 12:56
All the drivers in F1 can do very well and win races in the top cars. Lets not put them down as they are all excellent racers with more racing ability in their little toe than most of us have.

So, the benchmark isn't set at 50%, 75% or even 90% but probably 99.??%

Give any of those drivers a "standard" F1 car and 20 laps and they will all lap within a 10th or so of each other.

What makes the top draw drivers is the ability to turn out that 99.??% performance lap, after lap, after lap, no matter what changes; the track, the temperature, the weather. The best seem to extract the maximum when their contemporaries fall by the wayside.

Take Massa for example. He can show superb ability in the car but struggles when things change (silverstone) whereas Lewis with the same weather conditions excelled. Or last weekend when he was really unwell, yet still turned out that 99.??% performance.

Schumacher was the same. I remember when he dried his own bit of track out to overtake on :laugh: or still managed to bring a car home in 2nd with a lost gear. Genius.

lets face it, you cant imagine Kimi doing that.

Hamilton was recognised as a prestigious talent from a early age and sponsored into F1 by McLaren. Ron had the confidence that he could fit into the job and has been paid back in spades.

Schumy was also a recognised driver and was sponsored to drive by Mercedes who wanted him to enter the Mercedes powered Sauber team. However, we all know he reneged on that deal (and on the agreement in principal with Jordan) in a Buttonesk manner to move to Benetton who he had 2 Championships with.

So, he was always going to make it as he had the might of Mercedes behind him as Lewis had McLaren.

However, starting in the lower teams gives you a distinct advantage.

1. It allows you to ease into F1 without the huge media hype Lewis had to contend with.

2. The drivers you are up against are not the top drawer ones so you can shine easier.

Lewis has not had that luxury. He has been thrust into the spotlight and against the 2X current world champion.

Expecting to fail, he shocked everyone by not only surviving but beating Alonso in his debut year and almost winning the WDC in a car that wasn't the best out there.

There's not much more I can say.

Garry Walker
27th August 2008, 13:21
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4047504,00.html

How about Vettel, Ron?
He's only been in F1 about as long as Lewy, and last week end was the fastest guy out there, just take a look at the fastest lap times posted during the qualis. All this in a STR, not a McLaren!


Vettel? :rotflmao:



Schumacher was the same. I remember when he dried his own bit of track out to overtake on :laugh: or still managed to bring a car home in 2nd with a lost gear. Genius.

lets face it, you cant imagine Kimi doing that.


Did you miss the french GP?

wedge
27th August 2008, 14:13
Did you miss the french GP?

I think a better example is Nurburgring 2005 where he continued racing with a huge flat spot and almost won the race.

PolePosition_1
27th August 2008, 15:20
I think a better example is Nurburgring 2005 where he continued racing with a huge flat spot and almost won the race.

Flat spot caused by himself.

Classic example of punching above your weight would be Damon Hill in Arrows at the 1997 Hungarian GP.

27th August 2008, 16:18
To be fair, did anyone seriously expect Ron to say anything else?

Valve Bounce
27th August 2008, 22:31
To be fair, did anyone seriously expect Ron to say anything else?

Well, yeah! I thought he'd say that Fernando was the best driver in F1.

Hawkmoon
28th August 2008, 03:20
I think the only person who should be dissapointed with Ron's comments is Kovalainen. Can't be nice having your boss tell the world that you're not as good as your teammate. Then again, maybe Kovy's accepted his No.2 role and it wouldn't bother him.

F1boat
28th August 2008, 06:52
Knock-on, remember the 2005 Japanese Grand Prix? In that race Kimi showed how good he is. That was a tremendous victory in which a driver excelled.

ShiftingGears
28th August 2008, 07:07
How about Vettel, Ron?


When Hamilton entered he was instantly a match for Alonso. When Vettel entered, he wasn't impressive against Liuzzi.

And I don't think anyone would say that Liuzzi is on the same level as Alonso.

jens
28th August 2008, 09:50
I think the only person who should be dissapointed with Ron's comments is Kovalainen. Can't be nice having your boss tell the world that you're not as good as your teammate. Then again, maybe Kovy's accepted his No.2 role and it wouldn't bother him.

I think everyone, even Kovalainen himself, knows that at the moment he is not as good as Hamilton. And if Ron or someone said this, it wouldn't sound credible. :p :

F1boat
28th August 2008, 10:08
I think that jens is very right. It is weird to say who is the best, because it depends on the current form of the driver. F.ex. I think that in 2005 Kimi was much better than now.

gravity
28th August 2008, 10:08
Well, Schumacher had a race winning car in his first full year of F1.
Was it a race winning car before he joined? How many wins did the team get before he joined? How many wins did his team mate get in that year? (or the next?)

ioan
28th August 2008, 10:55
When Hamilton entered he was instantly a match for Alonso. When Vettel entered, he wasn't impressive against Liuzzi.

And I don't think anyone would say that Liuzzi is on the same level as Alonso.

Vettel went on to improve a lot in that Torro Rosso, and last week end is a testimony to this.

Hamilton? He certainly is as good as 18 months ago but better, faster? I don't think so. Having a slower team mate doesn't help him either.

bontebempo
28th August 2008, 11:00
There's not much more I can say.[/QUOTE]

thank god

wedge
28th August 2008, 12:07
Was it a race winning car before he joined? How many wins did the team get before he joined? How many wins did his team mate get in that year? (or the next?)

Piquet was gifted the 1991 Canadian after Mansell's debacle.

Benetton were a second tier team but were sometimes a threat. Same as BMW now, 2003 Renault, 2001/02 Williams.

Usually it takes a top driver and the right circumstances.


Vettel went on to improve a lot in that Torro Rosso, and last week end is a testimony to this.

Hamilton? He certainly is as good as 18 months ago but better, faster? I don't think so. Having a slower team mate doesn't help him either.

You could say the same thing about Schumi. :rolleyes:

I think it shows you how much of the real deal Hamilton is. Isn't quite the finished article but he's only a step or two away, IMHO.

ShiftingGears
28th August 2008, 12:38
Vettel went on to improve a lot in that Torro Rosso, and last week end is a testimony to this.

The Toro Rosso is also far superior than the one he had at the start of his career. Webber vs Vettel will be an interesting battle.


Hamilton? He certainly is as good as 18 months ago but better, faster? I don't think so. Having a slower team mate doesn't help him either.

I am sure if this was 1992, I could apply your exact same argument to Michael Schumacher, and use your logic to claim that it proves that another driver who improved moreso during '91 and '92 was better.

PolePosition_1
28th August 2008, 13:22
Was it a race winning car before he joined? How many wins did the team get before he joined? How many wins did his team mate get in that year? (or the next?)

Benetton was a race winning team before he joined yes.

But the car itself wasn't.

It same way Hamiltons car was not a race winning car before 2008, because it was a new car.

I not sure of your point sorry.

ioan
28th August 2008, 14:14
I am sure if this was 1992, I could apply your exact same argument to Michael Schumacher, and use your logic to claim that it proves that another driver who improved moreso during '91 and '92 was better.

Try.

Mifune
28th August 2008, 16:54
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4047504,00.html

How about Vettel, Ron?
He's only been in F1 about as long as Lewy, and last week end was the fastest guy out there, just take a look at the fastest lap times posted during the qualis. All this in a STR, not a McLaren!

ioan,why do you watch F1 or read anything Ron Dennis says? It clearly seems to make you unhappy.

MrJan
28th August 2008, 17:59
Vettel went on to improve a lot in that Torro Rosso, and last week end is a testimony to this.

Hamilton? He certainly is as good as 18 months ago but better, faster? I don't think so. Having a slower team mate doesn't help him either.

Just like it didn't help Schumacher? :p :

gloomyDAY
28th August 2008, 19:32
ioan,why do you watch F1 or read anything Ron Dennis says? It clearly seems to make you unhappy.Lurkers always know best. :D

ioan
28th August 2008, 19:55
Just like it didn't help Schumacher? :p :

In his 2nd year in f1 MS was teamed with a WDC! :rolleyes:
I suppose you didn't watch F1 back then. :p :

28th August 2008, 20:20
In his 2nd year in f1 MS was teamed with a WDC! :rolleyes:
I suppose you didn't watch F1 back then. :p :

Martin Brundle never won a race, let alone a WDC.

In Schumi's first quarter of a year he was teamed with a 3-time WDC, Piquet.

MrJan
28th August 2008, 20:37
In his 2nd year in f1 MS was teamed with a WDC! :rolleyes:
I suppose you didn't watch F1 back then. :p :

You made no mention of it being year specific but being only 10 at the time and not having a TV I didn't really watch a lot of F1, and that which I did watch didn't really make much sense.

Still doesn't really matter, Hamilton is obviously doing fine, apparently you have to be quite good to lead the WDC.....oh wait, it's all the car isn't it, unless your name is Michael Schumacher in which case it's all about the driver :rolleyes:

ioan
28th August 2008, 20:52
Martin Brundle never won a race, let alone a WDC.

In Schumi's first quarter of a year he was teamed with a 3-time WDC, Piquet.

My bad. :)

Valve Bounce
28th August 2008, 21:42
My bad. :)

Very!!

wedge
28th August 2008, 22:22
Martin Brundle never won a race, let alone a WDC.

In Schumi's first quarter of a year he was teamed with a 3-time WDC, Piquet.

Although Piquet was still a solid driver and got Benetton at least a win a season during his time, he was past his peak for a top rated driver of his standards.

I seem to remember James Hunt criticised Piquet because Roberto Moreno could easily give him the hurry up sign in races.

markabilly
29th August 2008, 03:29
By the way, I bet you're pleased to have posted Ron's opinion twice! ;)




In fact I wasn't happy at all, as it looked like a beginner who can't post in a forum! :D
See Ioan has far more in common with hamster than he realized. Both under intense pressure, pushed the wrong button at the wrong time, except Hamster lost a wdc...... :(

ShiftingGears
29th August 2008, 06:35
Try.

Its your logic, you figure it out.

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 10:31
Knock-on, remember the 2005 Japanese Grand Prix? In that race Kimi showed how good he is. That was a tremendous victory in which a driver excelled.

Kimi is an excellent driver but I don't rate him on the same ability level as Schumacher. Basically, drivers like Schumacher and Lewis seem to be able to make things happen when it's really needed.

Rubins had some superb races when with Ferrari and showed Schumy a clean pair of heels on occassions but you couldn't rate the two drivers as equal.

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 10:33
There's not much more I can say.

thank god

+1

wedge
29th August 2008, 11:04
Basically, drivers like Schumacher and Lewis seem to be able to make things happen when it's really needed.

Monaco 2005 - pole-flag win in despite one stopping and JPM on two stopper.

Suzuka 2005 - storms through grid with winning pass on last lap.

Fuji 2007 - storms through the field

Stunning form in the 2nd half of 2007 to win WDC

2006 was a good year for Kimi, IMHO. The McLaren that year were dreadful by their standards but Kimi scored points and podiums regularly whereas JPM was being a cry baby.

Favours long runs so he can pit pass via stonking laps leading up to pit stop - hint of Schumi is it not?

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 11:20
Monaco 2005 - pole-flag win in despite one stopping and JPM on two stopper.

Suzuka 2005 - storms through grid with winning pass on last lap.

Fuji 2007 - storms through the field

Stunning form in the 2nd half of 2007 to win WDC

2006 was a good year for Kimi, IMHO. The McLaren that year were dreadful by their standards but Kimi scored points and podiums regularly whereas JPM was being a cry baby.

Favours long runs so he can pit pass via stonking laps leading up to pit stop - hint of Schumi is it not?

Not really. He has some good races but goes off the boil and struggles against his team mate.

Last year, he had a good finish to the season but the Ferrari was arguebally the best car so he should have done against his less experienced team mate. However, he only lucked the WDC in the end and probably couldn't believe himself that he won.

Since then, he has shone on occassions but failed to impress on more.

jens
29th August 2008, 11:33
Monaco 2005 - pole-flag win in despite one stopping and JPM on two stopper.


I don't know, what do you quite mean by mentioning their pitstops, especially as Montoya started from the back row and didn't have any chance of troubling Kimi anyway? By the way, f1.com-s data shows that Montoya was on a one-stopper.

ioan
29th August 2008, 11:34
Its your logic, you figure it out.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you can't!

:rotflmao:

ioan
29th August 2008, 11:37
Not really. He has some good races but goes off the boil and struggles against his team mate.

Last year, he had a good finish to the season but the Ferrari was arguebally the best car so he should have done against his less experienced team mate. However, he only lucked the WDC in the end and probably couldn't believe himself that he won.

And even then it was with team mate's ultimate help! :)

ShiftingGears
29th August 2008, 11:43
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you can't!

:rotflmao:

It was a hypothetical, which you failed to realise.


Look - Pick any driver who developed from underwhelming to decent circa 1991 and by your logic, you have a driver better than Schumacher. Not too hard to understand your own logic is it?

Is it?

wedge
29th August 2008, 11:56
I don't know, what do you quite mean by mentioning their pitstops, especially as Montoya started from the back row and didn't have any chance of troubling Kimi anyway? By the way, f1.com-s data shows that Montoya was on a one-stopper.

Sorry, my bad. Must've been someone else

wedge
29th August 2008, 12:14
Not really. He has some good races but goes off the boil and struggles against his team mate.

Last year, he had a good finish to the season but the Ferrari was arguebally the best car so he should have done against his less experienced team mate. However, he only lucked the WDC in the end and probably couldn't believe himself that he won.

Since then, he has shone on occassions but failed to impress on more.

Last year he struggled more with adapting to tyres, same with Alonso. By that logic Alonso was an over-rated double WDC!

Kimi was near equal to Heidfeld in his Sauber debut, beaten by DC in his first year with McLaren but went on to become the better driver, beating JPM.

Now that he's struggling with Massa perhaps it shows you how good/under-rated Massa is?

Perhaps we should wait how Kimi's F1 career unfolds post 2010 before we start pointing fingers.

ioan
29th August 2008, 12:45
It was a hypothetical, which you failed to realise.


Look - Pick any driver who developed from underwhelming to decent circa 1991 and by your logic, you have a driver better than Schumacher. Not too hard to understand your own logic is it?

Is it?


It was from decent to very good that we were talking about, not about those who realized after a few seasons that the steering wheel turns both sides.

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 13:25
Last year he struggled more with adapting to tyres, same with Alonso. By that logic Alonso was an over-rated double WDC!

Kimi was near equal to Heidfeld in his Sauber debut, beaten by DC in his first year with McLaren but went on to become the better driver, beating JPM.

Now that he's struggling with Massa perhaps it shows you how good/under-rated Massa is?

Perhaps we should wait how Kimi's F1 career unfolds post 2010 before we start pointing fingers.


Wedgey baby, we can't just sit around on our hands for a couple of years. My hands will go numb.

(Although I've heard a rumour that if feels like someone else is doing it if you numb your hand first ;) )

This is all subjective so my opinion is as follows.

KR is a very quick driver but is not adaptable to changing circumstances. If it's all set up perfectly, he is amazing but doesn't seem to be able to mould a team around him as MS, Massa and LH seem to.

He was fortunate to win the championship last year and credit to him for sticking in there. However, it was more a case of McLaren chucking it away which is understandable given all the crap going on :rolleyes:

However, this year Massa has found his Mojo. He was so up and down at the beginning but seems to be in a groove now and Kimi is struggleing.

We can blame it on brakes or tyres or whatever but Massa is getting the job done.

wedge
29th August 2008, 13:39
KR is a very quick driver but is not adaptable to changing circumstances. If it's all set up perfectly, he is amazing but doesn't seem to be able to mould a team around him as MS, Massa and LH seem to.

Another example, he actually was quicker than Lewis at the first stint at Silverstone until his pit/tyre strategy was screwed and spun off left, right and centre.

The latter part of that argument I agree with. That is the major criticism I have with Kimi's laissez faire attitude. Drivers are selfish, they want the best of everything.

Everyone knows how selfish Alonso and Lewis are, and now we're hearing things about Kubica being the centre of attention at BMW.

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 13:47
Another example, he actually was quicker than Lewis at the first stint at Silverstone until his pit/tyre strategy was screwed and spun off left, right and centre.

The latter part of that argument I agree with. That is the major criticism I have with Kimi's laissez faire attitude. Drivers are selfish, they want the best of everything.

Everyone knows how selfish Alonso and Lewis are, and now we're hearing things about Kubica being the centre of attention at BMW.

Your talking about specific instances in a specific race when rain tyres were wearing out. However, the conversation is about his overall performance isn't it.

Bit like saying Rubins was better than Schumy because on occassions he dominated the German.

As for Lewis being selfish, I hadn't heard that. He didn't gel well with Alonso and we know why but the relationship between Heikki and Lewis seems very amicable and constructive.

Hadn't heard anything about BMW.

wedge
29th August 2008, 15:07
As for Lewis being selfish, I hadn't heard that. He didn't gel well with Alonso and we know why but the relationship between Heikki and Lewis seems very amicable and constructive.


Do you believe everything from the McLaren hype machine? Lewis is desperate to win like most drivers.

Lewis disliked the team orders issued at Monaco, felt he should've had a fair opportunity to fight Alonso.

Apparantly told Ron to "go swivvle"

Disobeyed team orders in Hungary qualy - it was Alonso who should've led the train of cars in Q3, not Lewis - which led to Alonso's disgraceful retaliation.

What I fear most is just how far will Lewis go to win - just like his beloved Senna?


Hadn't heard anything about BMW.

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Martin_Brundle&id=43188


I understand that hes pretty demanding within the team to make sure he gets what he wants, and hes clearly dedicated.

Knock-on
29th August 2008, 16:49
Do you believe everything from the McLaren hype machine? Lewis is desperate to win like most drivers.

Lewis disliked the team orders issued at Monaco, felt he should've had a fair opportunity to fight Alonso.

Apparantly told Ron to "go swivvle"

Disobeyed team orders in Hungary qualy - it was Alonso who should've led the train of cars in Q3, not Lewis - which led to Alonso's disgraceful retaliation.

What I fear most is just how far will Lewis go to win - just like his beloved Senna?



http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Martin_Brundle&id=43188

A driver demanding to be treated equally. Shock, Horror :D

Alonso wanted #1 status and got told to go swivel :D

BDunnell
29th August 2008, 19:30
Honestly, I dread to think what some people here would have thought of some of the rivalries of old. To read some of the comments, one would think that rivalries, ruthlessness, arrogance and drivers/team bosses talking up their chances are something entirely new and shocking.

ArrowsFA1
29th August 2008, 21:41
Honestly, I dread to think what some people here would have thought of some of the rivalries of old. To read some of the comments, one would think that rivalries, ruthlessness, arrogance and drivers/team bosses talking up their chances are something entirely new and shocking.
:up:

Just look at the tricks (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/motorsport.htm) Mansell got up to. Apply that kind of thing to today and there would be uproar :eek: and yet at the time...nothing.

ioan
29th August 2008, 23:22
:up:

Just look at the tricks (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/motorsport.htm) Mansell got up to. Apply that kind of thing to today and there would be uproar :eek: and yet at the time...nothing.

Because there was no motorsport forum back then! :D

ShiftingGears
29th August 2008, 23:27
It was from decent to very good that we were talking about, not about those who realized after a few seasons that the steering wheel turns both sides.

Nothing like a stereotype to avoid answering my question.

wedge
30th August 2008, 00:23
Honestly, I dread to think what some people here would have thought of some of the rivalries of old. To read some of the comments, one would think that rivalries, ruthlessness, arrogance and drivers/team bosses talking up their chances are something entirely new and shocking.

Probably caught the wrong end of the stick if you're referring to my comment about drivers being selfish.

My point it is that if Kimi made himself the centre of attention inside Ferrari then he probably wouldn't be in this mess. He is his own man, he is an enigma and you do wonder if he could apply himself better in some way.

31st August 2008, 11:24
Monaco 2005 - pole-flag win in despite one stopping and JPM on two stopper.

No big fan of JPM me, but to be fair, and I was at that race, JPM had a grid penalty, starting 16th.

He had no chance of making a two-stopper strategy working as well as Kimi did with a 1-stop and a clear track from pole.

Now, I admit that JPM brought his starting position on himself, and through-out his Mclaren tenure was shaded by Kimi, but comparing Monaco 2005 race-performances without mentioning the differences in starting positions doesn't seem right.

ArrowsFA1
31st August 2008, 16:06
Because there was no motorsport forum back then! :D
Very true :up: but I also think the demands of the media mean teams/drivers are cornered into saying something, anything, more often than not and if they don't either it's made up or old quotes are rehashed to make a story.

Given the number of press conferences, interviews and team press releases is it any wonder that comments sometimes appear to be contradictory or bland?

BDunnell
31st August 2008, 16:09
Very true :up: but I also think the demands of the media mean teams/drivers are cornered into saying something, anything, more often than not and if they don't either it's made up or old quotes are rehashed to make a story.

Given the number of press conferences, interviews and team press releases is it any wonder that comments sometimes appear to be contradictory or bland?

Exactly. The appetite for words from drivers, etc, is so much greater now than it's ever been. I don't understand why anybody should be surprised by this, what with the proliferation of media outlets. Also, as regards blandness, we have to remember that many of these drivers know nothing else than modern methods of media management on the part of their employers.

31st August 2008, 17:27
I'm surprised that some pro-Hamilton fans on here believe that he isn't capable of being downright selfish.

One of the main things that makes me think that he is the real-deal isn't his results or his evident speed but the very fact that he is "selfish".

It's what marks the men from the boys in this sport.

wedge
31st August 2008, 23:16
I'm surprised that some pro-Hamilton fans on here believe that he isn't capable of being downright selfish.

One of the main things that makes me think that he is the real-deal isn't his results or his evident speed but the very fact that he is "selfish".

It's what marks the men from the boys in this sport.

Exactly.

DC said recently he regretted not having an arrogant streak citing Melbourne 1998 being a prime example - apparantly he said over the radio "I'm finished doing f***ing charity work".

In Mansell biography he said he didn't like Piquet's scheming and bluffing and then makes himself look hypocritical because he does the same thing against Patrese, not to mention demanding to be #1 driver before signing again for Williams.

And I seem to remember Mario Andretti said Mansell was his worst team mate he ever had because of his constant demands to Newman-Haas.

Valve Bounce
31st August 2008, 23:38
In a tough sport like F1, if you don't make demands, the only thing you get for free is a kick in the arse.

Knock-on
1st September 2008, 08:52
I'm surprised that some pro-Hamilton fans on here believe that he isn't capable of being downright selfish.

One of the main things that makes me think that he is the real-deal isn't his results or his evident speed but the very fact that he is "selfish".

It's what marks the men from the boys in this sport.

Who said that?

I don't put a lot of consideration into a drivers personality as it doesn't really matter. What does is what happens on the track.

I've taken 2 pieces of advice to heart in my short life: Don't believe everything you read in the papers and don't eat yellow snow.

Does me :D

ioan
1st September 2008, 10:26
Very true :up: but I also think the demands of the media mean teams/drivers are cornered into saying something, anything, more often than not and if they don't either it's made up or old quotes are rehashed to make a story.

Agree with that, the media is a b!tch nowadays, they don't care about just reporting, only about distorting to make it sale better.

Bagwan
1st September 2008, 13:51
Who said that?

I don't put a lot of consideration into a drivers personality as it doesn't really matter. What does is what happens on the track.

I've taken 2 pieces of advice to heart in my short life: Don't believe everything you read in the papers and don't eat yellow snow.

Does me :D

Knock , Tamburello's right about that character "flaw" being an almost essential central trait .
A couple of weeks ago , whilst lounging at the cottage , I finally got to read Allen's book about the red shoe .
I was actually surprised by it , being that I was expecting a fawning diatribe about his utter amazing-ness and all else good , when it spoke candidly about his "cracked" personality .

Being selfish , in this sense , is taking every opportunity to gain advantage for oneself .
That includes being closer to the boss and the crew behind you .
Curiously , for the shoe , this went beyond staying late in the garage , and cleverly made him look more unselfish , when he would even buy birthday presents for all .

The key is the boss , though .
If all the crew tell the boss you're cool , that's cool with the boss .

Some have driven into the boss's heart , but others have not left it up to so much chance .

Knock-on
1st September 2008, 14:50
Knock , Tamburello's right about that character "flaw" being an almost essential central trait .


No, what I meant is who suggested he couldn't be arrogant.

They have all got to be singleminded and supremely confident in their ability to make it to the top.

That can manifest itself in many ways.

wedge
1st September 2008, 23:19
No, what I meant is who suggested he couldn't be arrogant.


As for Lewis being selfish, I hadn't heard that.

So what did you mean when you say Lewis isn't selfish?