Kimi's Problem

[CaptainRaiden]

Trying to explain the grand spanking that Massa is giving Kimi right now, the commentators during the qualifying yesterday were saying that Kimi is struggling with the "brakes" of his car since Ferrari changed their braking system as they were wearing down very quickly. And that Massa has gotten used to them very quickly, and Kimi hasn't, which explains his rotten pace for the last few races. I don't know that for sure, maybe someone has some proof somewhere.

Having said that, Massa was completely blowing Kimi away in the same car by over 40 seconds as I started to type this post. Then there was the pitstop debacle where Kimi's rear tyre almost ran over the refueller, and now his engine conked up. It seems everything that could go wrong is going wrong for the reigning world champion.

Is it the matter of brakes, car setup or just morale, the fact that maybe Kimi isn't interested in racing or going fast anymore. Whatever it is, it doesn't look good for a reigning world champion to be blown away like this by his lesser reputed teammate.

[harsha]

i would hazard a guess and say that Kimi was just trying to conserve his engine...this might have been his second race on the engine...and this is Massa's first race in this engine...

otherwise he was just plain outdone

[F1boat]

With this engine, I don't know. Maybe it was the engine during the whole race.

[ottostreet]

Has kimi run out of a reason for racing? he doesnt look a happy bunny. since joining ferrari, he hasnt looked the force he once was, despite title success last year. i watched a 2003 race the other day, and kimi looks alive and much more aggressive than he does now. we see flashes of the mclaren-era kimi from time to time, but, while kimi says hes happier at ferrari, is it simply that he suited the mclaren style more? its difficult to read kimi at the moment, but since his exhaust failure while leading in france three races ago, he has been nowhere!

[ArrowsFA1]

You do wonder if Ferrari are beginning to question Kimi's contribution to the team, particularly on a value for money basis when compared with Massa!

I do think that Massa is very much a part of Ferrari, but perhaps they didn't see him as a team leader. Now, maybe, they're seeing that he might just be able to do that. If so, and Kimi's sensing a shift within the team, then that might be enough to affect his form.

Ferrari are very much a team, whereas Kimi seems somewhat outside the "inner circle". When he was winning races and the title that didn't matter much.

[ioan]

Maybe Kimi is having the problems that earlier people used to attribute to Felipe?

[truefan72]

not really,

last I checked Kimi is still 3rd in points at 57 and 7 behind Massa, a win or 2nd place finish in the next race coupled with a massa DNF puts him right back ahead of massa.

I think the engine was a problem for kimi today. he often doesn't make excuses for himslef but it was obvious he was nursing that car around. after a while, he felt more comfortable pushing the car and did a 1:39's

the pit stip incident did little to help the car's engine and then it let go.

he is 13 points back with 6 races to go, Just about where he was last year, when everyone though it was going to be decided between LH and Alonso.

He's having a few races where he's been less than stellar, but I won't count him out and definitely don't feel that he's past his expiration date with Ferrari.

I'd still hedge my bets that he'll finish ahead of massa.

[janneppi]

I still don't get the idea of running heavy in q3, unless the lap is perfect, he will lose places to his main rivals, like this weekend, and' it compromises his starts too, as today when kovalainen got a clean side. Driving 5 laps longer in the first stint means nothing if you're behind Kubica and Heikki.

Driving like a moron in the pits doesn't help either.

[Corny]

A while ago I've red that Kimi is having problems to warm his tyres up during qualifying..

I think that should be the problem; in the races he can never show his true speed because he's always stuck behind anyone.

For example: In Hungary he sucked in qualifying, but have you seen his lap times there when he was closing in on Glock (so had a free road)? And who set the fastest racelap there?

[Roamy]

the he better learn how to pass someone. But Massa is driving the wheels off of the car right now and he will be very hard to beat. I hopes it rains again so we can see if he is just bad in the rain of the car was to fault at silverstone. Kimi is just looking like a top fast runner but nothing special. Kinda like HK

[Knock-on]

Results talk, bull walks.

[Valve Bounce]

the he better learn how to pass someone. But Massa is driving the wheels off of the car right now and he will be very hard to beat. I hopes it rains again so we can see if he is just bad in the rain of the car was to fault at silverstone. Kimi is just looking like a top fast runner but nothing special. Kinda like HK

You told Massa his Ferrari was stolen, didn't you!!

[racecraze]

Its looking some how funny but very sad for Kimi, he must try more to rectify this kind of issues

[markabilly]

Why don't you all just ask him

[Valve Bounce]

Why don't you all just ask him

Louise Goodman already tried that! :crazy:

[555-04Q2]

not really,

last I checked Kimi is still 3rd in points at 57 and 7 behind Massa, a win or 2nd place finish in the next race coupled with a massa DNF puts him right back ahead of massa.

Considering what he is being paid, Kimi should be spanking Massa, not the other way round!

[pino]

Considering what he is being paid, Kimi should be spanking Massa, not the other way round!

You cannot rate a driver for how much they pay him, i.e. Ralf Schumacher :p :

[A.F.F.]

Why don't you all just ask him

He said he isn't intrested.

But isn't that obvious?

[jens]

I have always thought Kimi is a bit overrated. During his time in F1 several mythical virtues have been ascribed to him by groups of F1 fans, like The Fastest Driver, The Best Overtaker, The Best Wet Weather Driver... or whatever. Life has shown that those titles are more like subjective opinions rather than genuine proof, which has been confirmed on the racing circuit. I still ironically remember, how years ago he was expected to beat M. Schumacher in the same car, something which the last seasons have proven wouldn't have happened.

However, I think Kimi is capable of more than what he is currently showing and it is strange to see him getting trashed by his team-mate. He should be capable of matching him. If he continues driving like that, then maybe it would be a good decision to leave already after 2008...

[Dave B]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Kimi could have benefitted from a few more seasons in lower formulae.

He was superb in Formula Renault but I can't help wondering, with hindsight, if a few more years learning the ropes (say in F3000 as it was then) might have made him a more complete F1 driver.

He's clearly quick, of that there's never been any doubt, but all too often one hears questions about his ability to blend in with a team and make a valuable contribution to its development. There's so much more to F1 than turning up at the weekend and driving the car quickly, something which Michael Schumacher knew better than most and something which Massa seems to appreciate.

[PolePosition_1]

I still ironically remember, how years ago he was expected to beat M. Schumacher in the same car, something which the last seasons have proven wouldn't have happened.



What foundations do you base this on? Just out of interest :)

[ioan]

What foundations do you base this on? Just out of interest :)

MS >> FM >= KR

[PolePosition_1]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Kimi could have benefitted from a few more seasons in lower formulae.

He was superb in Formula Renault but I can't help wondering, with hindsight, if a few more years learning the ropes (say in F3000 as it was then) might have made him a more complete F1 driver.



Dunno, maybe that would be true when your a rookie, but he has been in F1 for 7 years now, if anything is lacking due to lack of lower Formula experience, this would have been ironed out by now.

Personally, I think he just going through a rough patch.

The obvious area letting him down is qualifying, as his race pace in clear air is matching that of the drivers winning. Its just qualifying lets him down, and he has been slightly unlucky, in that being 0.3s off pole these days can mean being 5th or 6th. And with field spread, you've messed up your race.

But I can see why its so tempting, pitting 4 laps later in race and you can gain up to 8 seconds! But the strategy just isn't paying off because 4 laps of fuel sends you back into the clutches of the midfielders.

I'd say his poor performances have been down to just a bad patch, a slight lack of drive to fight for positions, like in Germany he seemed content in just driving round in 6th until he had some clear air to push the car.

The speed is there, the talent is there, its just looking bad due to combination of bad luck and a slight bad phase.

Who knows, imagine how exciting it'd be to see him partner Lewis at McLaren, with Alonso in Ferrari in 2009.....would be amazing! But not going to happen.

[PolePosition_1]

MS >> FM >= KR

Could look at it as Alonso beat MS in inferior car in 2006, And KR beat Alonso last year in pretty equal machinery.

So to say "proven" is slightly optimistic.

Comparing Massa now and in 2006 is like looking at two different drivers.

[CaptainRaiden]

MS >> FM >= KR

Yeah right. That after Kimi came to a team Massa already had spent two years with (1 as a test driver, 1 as a regular racing driver) and Kimi won the championship last year in 2007. Doesn't matter if it was because Lewis choked or Massa had bad luck, blah blah blah, whatever, Kimi was there to pickup the points and won more races than anybody else.

This is Massa's 4th year with Ferrari. OK, agreed that Kimi is having a crappy time in Ferrari in 2008 and Massa has improved a lot this year but Massa is not there, not yet. We'll agree with that assumption after Massa becomes a champion.

[ioan]

Could look at it as Alonso beat MS in inferior car in 2006, And KR beat Alonso last year in pretty equal machinery.

So to say "proven" is slightly optimistic.

Comparing Massa now and in 2006 is like looking at two different drivers.

Valve, please allow me to use the apples and bananas comparison! ;)

I compared drivers running in IDENTICAL cars, not in different teams.
You are comparing drivers running in different cars.

To counter your example with a similar low grade logical comparison: FA beat KR in 2005 in "pretty equal machinery". There goes your POV.

[ioan]

Yeah right. That after Kimi came to a team Massa already had spent two years with (1 as a test driver, 1 as a regular racing driver) and Kimi won the championship last year in 2007. Doesn't matter if it was because Lewis choked or Massa had bad luck, blah blah blah, whatever, Kimi was there to pickup the points and won more races than anybody else.

This is Massa's 4th year with Ferrari. OK, agreed that Kimi is having a crappy time in Ferrari in 2008 and Massa has improved a lot this year but Massa is not there, not yet. We'll agree with that assumption after Massa becomes a champion.

I say a driver who is improving is better than one who is losing his edge.

[gloomyDAY]

People, there isn't a problem with Kimi.

Stop being fickle! There is still plenty of time for the Finn to win this title.
If he gets any better at qualifying, then it's over for the competition.

[PolePosition_1]

Valve, please allow me to use the apples and bananas comparison! ;)

I compared drivers running in IDENTICAL cars, not in different teams.
You are comparing drivers running in different cars.

To counter your example with a similar low grade logical comparison: FA beat KR in 2005 in "pretty equal machinery". There goes your POV.

So you think Massa is driving to the same standard this year as in 2006?

[jens]

It's an interesting assumption that if Kimi had matured more in lower series, he would have become a more complete driver. Alas this is something we'll never get an answer to.

The qualifying problems seem strange to me too, especially as they are quite new. In the past Kimi managed to qualify more or less just fine and he did so also in the first half of the 2008 season, achieving two poles (ESP, FRA). Qualifying performance has been consistently disappointing since the German Grand Prix. Now there is a question, what has Ferrari changed in the car between British and German GP's?

[PolePosition_1]

It's an interesting assumption that if Kimi had matured more in lower series, he would have become a more complete driver. Alas this is something we'll never get an answer to.

The qualifying problems seem strange to me too, especially as they are quite new. In the past Kimi managed to qualify more or less just fine and he did so also in the first half of the 2008 season, achieving two poles (ESP, FRA). Qualifying performance has been consistently disappointing since the German Grand Prix. Now there is a question, what has Ferrari changed in the car between British and German GP's?

I read somewhere in this forum about the brakes changing, and Kimi is struggling to adapt to them.

It would make sense. His race pace is fast, its just qualifying pace, so maybe could be related to him not getting the brakes up to speed over a single lap?

Though I can't back it up, but think a reasonable forumer posted this - if this was you - let us know where you found this out :)

[Knock-on]

I read somewhere in this forum about the brakes changing, and Kimi is struggling to adapt to them.

It would make sense. His race pace is fast, its just qualifying pace, so maybe could be related to him not getting the brakes up to speed over a single lap?

Though I can't back it up, but think a reasonable forumer posted this - if this was you - let us know where you found this out :)

His race pace seems lacking if you ask me until the 2nd half of the race. For some reason, he only seems to wake up then.

I really struggle with this brake excuse. Come on chaps, isn't it clutching at straws a bit. If Lewis said he conldn't perform week in, week out because he couldn't get on with the brakes, what would the reaction be (from me as well).

[PolePosition_1]

His race pace seems lacking if you ask me until the 2nd half of the race. For some reason, he only seems to wake up then.

I really struggle with this brake excuse. Come on chaps, isn't it clutching at straws a bit. If Lewis said he conldn't perform week in, week out because he couldn't get on with the brakes, what would the reaction be (from me as well).

Well, thats probably because he is stuck behind cars from his low qualifying place for first half of the race.

With the top 10 cars seperated by so little, and the impossibility to overtake unless your much faster, anyone doesn't stand much chance of getting past.

But by second half after pit stops, he tends to get some free air and we see his race pace.

I'm not saying its true, but its an explanation. I remember Rubens struggling with left foot braking a while back, and it cost him throughout the season. Other drivers have struggled with tyres. Brakes are without doubt of huge importance, and a driver has to be comfortable using them.

When Alonso went to McLaren, him and Lewis used different manufacturers - he brought the same brakes he'd been using at Renault simply because he preferred the feel of them. I think that demonstrates the importance.

And if he can't get use to them, it could be an explanation. That said we need a source - I'll have a look around when I get a chance :)

[jens]

The whole situation proves IMO that Kimi is not as adaptable as maybe he was expected to be in the past due to his great natural pace. With Schumacher, who has been mentioned in this thread on several occasions, I can't remember any such issues or excuses, a'la struggling to adapt to brakes, tyres, or whatever. He was consistently quick no matter what.

[GCBToronto]

Part of the problem is that Kimi is simply too much of a loner. Nowadays it is mandatory for a driver to work very closely with a team over the long haul in order to keep pushing in the right direction and keep the team on side. Kimi seems to have this honeymoon period with the team where they will do anything for him, but they soon weary of his apparently indifferent attitude. Then if things go the least bit wrong for him, and a bit right for this teammate, things go downhill for Kimi very quickly. I think this is part of what happened at McLaren.

Massa on the other hand has learned invaluable lessons from MS on how keep the right mental attitude and work with the team. Despite the fact that Massa was a far from perfect driver, his self-development has been remarkably effective.

I don't write Kimi off yet, because things could turn around 180 degrees for both drivers in the very next race. But Kimi really needs to lose the "cool" attitude a bit and get turned on with the team, otherwise Ferrari is going to be another McLaren for him.

[GCBToronto]

Kimi is too much of a loner. Nowadays it is crtical that a driver work closely with a team in order to keep pushing in the right direction and keep the team onside. Kimi has this "get in the car and drive" modus operandi that is not helpful when things start to go the least bit wrong for him and especially when things start to go right for his teammate. After a while the team wearies of his apparently blase attitude towards everything.

Massa has been remarkably effective in his self-development, thanks in part to guidance to MS, and also thanks to his willingness to work closely with the team in adapting to the car.

Kimi needs to lose a bit of the "cool" attitude and get turned on with the team, othewise Ferrari is going to be another McLaren for him.

[PolePosition_1]

The whole situation proves IMO that Kimi is not as adaptable as maybe he was expected to be in the past due to his great natural pace. With Schumacher, who has been mentioned in this thread on several occasions, I can't remember any such issues or excuses, a'la struggling to adapt to brakes, tyres, or whatever. He was consistently quick no matter what.

Well I remember a few occassions when MS just couldn't get the right 'feel' to car.

So he took his team-mates cars off him, because he didn't like the feel of his.

[555-04Q2]

His race pace seems lacking if you ask me until the 2nd half of the race. For some reason, he only seems to wake up then.

I really struggle with this brake excuse. Come on chaps, isn't it clutching at straws a bit. If Lewis said he conldn't perform week in, week out because he couldn't get on with the brakes, what would the reaction be (from me as well).

Exactly. Its like last season where Kimi wasnt happy with the car setup. Massa seems to adapt pretty quickly to changes and car setup adjustments, why cant the teams supposed #1 driver do the same?

[Knock-on]

Part of the problem is that Kimi is simply too much of a loner. Nowadays it is mandatory for a driver to work very closely with a team over the long haul in order to keep pushing in the right direction and keep the team on side. Kimi seems to have this honeymoon period with the team where they will do anything for him, but they soon weary of his apparently indifferent attitude. Then if things go the least bit wrong for him, and a bit right for this teammate, things go downhill for Kimi very quickly. I think this is part of what happened at McLaren.

Massa on the other hand has learned invaluable lessons from MS on how keep the right mental attitude and work with the team. Despite the fact that Massa was a far from perfect driver, his self-development has been remarkably effective.

I don't write Kimi off yet, because things could turn around 180 degrees for both drivers in the very next race. But Kimi really needs to lose the "cool" attitude a bit and get turned on with the team, otherwise Ferrari is going to be another McLaren for him.

Good post and welcome to the forum :up:

[ioan]

Well I remember a few occassions when MS just couldn't get the right 'feel' to car.

So he took his team-mates cars off him, because he didn't like the feel of his.

Took his team mate's car?

Link please!

[PolePosition_1]

Took his team mate's car?

Link please!


Yes, couple times off top my head, when his team-mates were beating him over practice etc. And he ended up having Barrichello's / Irvines car for the race while his team-mate had the T-car.

I'll try find you a link, but anyone who has been watching Formula 1 for more than 10 years will tell you its true.

How long you been watching F1? I thought it was a pretty well known fact.

[Garry Walker]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Kimi could have benefitted from a few more seasons in lower formulae.

He was superb in Formula Renault but I can't help wondering, with hindsight, if a few more years learning the ropes (say in F3000 as it was then) might have made him a more complete F1 driver.

He's clearly quick, of that there's never been any doubt, but all too often one hears questions about his ability to blend in with a team and make a valuable contribution to its development. There's so much more to F1 than turning up at the weekend and driving the car quickly, something which Michael Schumacher knew better than most and something which Massa seems to appreciate.

LOL.

You learn much more in F1 than in smaller series. So lack of seasons in lower classes has nothing to do with Kimis problems at the moment.


Valve, please allow me to use the apples and bananas comparison! ;)

I compared drivers running in IDENTICAL cars, not in different teams.
You are comparing drivers running in different cars.

To counter your example with a similar low grade logical comparison: FA beat KR in 2005 in "pretty equal machinery". There goes your POV.

Alonso beat Kimi in 2005 only because McLaren kept blowing up.


Took his team mate's car?

Link please!

I remember he took RBs car at Imola in 2002 for the race, but that is all.


Anyway, Kimis problem at the moment is that he cannot warm up the tyres quick enough and to add to this problem, Ferrari is giving him crazy fuel strategys.
If you look at Valencias qualifying times, then Massa beat Kimi by half a second, but 3 laps of fuel on this track was worth maybe around 0,35-0,4 seconds, so the gap in reality between them was small. But Massa had free air in the race and Kimi was behind Kovalainen and couldn`t show his race pace.
Ferrari is really messing up this year with their reliability and tactical problems.
It is safe to say I want Todt back.

[Dave B]

LOL.

You learn much more in F1 than in smaller series. So lack of seasons in lower classes has nothing to do with Kimis problems at the moment.
Nice of you to dismiss my post in such fashion, when I clearly stated it was my opinion. You apparently know something denied to the rest of us, so please enlighten us mere mortals.

Maybe you do learn more in F1, but you need to know how to learn first. Put it another way, you clearly learn more at secondary school than in junior school, but if you were fast-tracked to secondary school aged six or seven you'd have none of the skills required to equip you for the experience.

I just think that with hindsight Kimi's sudden leap to Sauber, however rapid he was on track, may have been a tad to soon (please pay attention to bolded words).

[Dave B]

Change of subject, there's a striking photo of the aftermath of Kimi's Valencia pitstop here:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/26/d3val.jpg

(C) Darren Heath / The Times

There's a link to more here:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2008/08/you-gotta-see-t.html

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