IndyCar to go to turbos in 2011

[Chaparral66]

The Indy Star is reporting that IndyCar is going to turbos in 3 years. That apparantly was the consensus at the first roundtable at IMS earlier this year. They're going to have another closed door session later this year. The chice right now would be between 4 cyl. or 6 cyl. The first question in my mind is did Ford go to the first round table, and since they are starting to develop more fuel efficient turbos for their street cars, does this give them an opportunity to get back in the open wheel game, maybe work with Cosworth again?

link: click on it or cut and paste it
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080823/SPORTS0107/808230418/-1/NLETTER05&source=nletter-sports

[Champcar4life]

The Indy Star is reporting that IndyCar is going to turbos in 3 years. That apparantly was the consensus at the first roundtable at IMS earlier this year. They're going to have another closed door session later this year. The chice right now would be between 4 cyl. or 6 cyl. The first question in my mind is did Ford go to the first round table, and since they are starting to develop more fuel efficient turbos for their street cars, does this give them an opportunity to get back in the open wheel game, maybe work with Cosworth again?

link: click on it or cut and paste it
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080823/SPORTS0107/808230418/-1/NLETTER05&source=nletter-sports


I read that read the report myself and it seem in a few years the IRL won't even look like what it starting out be an all oval series, looking more and more like CART every day, which to me is a good thing. I think a production base V-6 in the 3.2-3.8 liter range is a good starting point.

[Jag_Warrior]

Mazda (Ford controlled, but a separate motorsports budget and director) and Cosworth representatives attended the round table. Ford sent no one and as far as I know, has expressed no interest in returning to AOWR. The list I saw included the two just mentioned, along with AER, Judd, Ilmor, Speedway Engines, Honda, Volkswagen, Audi (listed separately, but they are under the same ownership), BMW, Chevrolet and Fiat (though some scribes used the Ferrari name... to draw more attention?)

There was misinformation on Fiat = Ferrari. While reps from Fiat Auto attended, that division of the Fiat Group is not affiliated with Ferrari. Ferrari is (partially) owned by Fiat Group, not Fiat Auto. Any interest from Fiat Auto would likely be for Alfa Romeo, due to make another try in N.A. soon. Or maybe something else. The past two times I've been in Auburn Hills, there have been slick dressed gentlemen with Italian accents. Either Nardelli is trying to get in touch with his Italian roots or maybe Fiat Auto and Chrysler are moving forward with the rumored joint venture.

But back to Chaparral66's point... yes, it appears that the turbo option has the most support among prospective manufacturers. With most manufacturers now exploring turbo options to increase fuel efficiency, while maintaining a certain level of engine performance, it does make sense, IMO.

[pitwall3]

I can see it now. The IRL holding a press conference in the off season to announce the selection of the Panoz DPO1 as the Car of the future (COF) with turbos, optional tires with standing starts at all road/street. Champ Car 2 anyone.

[Chaparral66]

Mazda (Ford controlled, but a separate motorsports budget and director) and Cosworth representatives attended the round table. Ford sent no one and as far as I know, has expressed no interest in returning to AOWR. The list I saw included the two just mentioned, along with AER, Judd, Ilmor, Speedway Engines, Honda, Volkswagen, Audi (listed separately, but they are under the same ownership), BMW, Chevrolet and Fiat (though some scribes used the Ferrari name... to draw more attention?)

There was misinformation on Fiat = Ferrari. While reps from Fiat Auto attended, that division of the Fiat Group is not affiliated with Ferrari. Ferrari is (partially) owned by Fiat Group, not Fiat Auto. Any interest from Fiat Auto would likely be for Alfa Romeo, due to make another try in N.A. soon. Or maybe something else. The past two times I've been in Auburn Hills, there have been slick dressed gentlemen with Italian accents. Either Nardelli is trying to get in touch with his Italian roots or maybe Fiat Auto and Chrysler are moving forward with the rumored joint venture.

But back to Chaparral66's point... yes, it appears that the turbo option has the most support among prospective manufacturers. With most manufacturers now exploring turbo options to increase fuel efficiency, while maintaining a certain level of engine performance, it does make sense, IMO.

I agree. You know, if I were cynical, especially in regards to pitwall3's point, I might say that it remains an open question who "won the open wheel war"; Maybe TG the man won over The Three Amigos in their battle, but the CART/Champ Car concept, in terms of tech specs, is winning the long term debate. But that would be cynical and I am not that. I really do think that what we are seeing is a mesh of different ideas coming together and producing a product that might be appealing to the highest number of open wheel fans. If at some point they can get Road America and Cleveland, and perhaps even Michigan and Fontana, all back into the fold, right around the time of the turbo engines are introduced, that would be a great time for the fans we lost to things like NASCAR to take a second look at AOWR. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

Jag, I take you at your word that Ford was not at the round table (a shame) but I'll bet you that Dan Davis at Ford Racing asked his Mazda counterpart to give him the full 411 on the meeting to see if there was anything they might look at down the road.

[Miatanut]

I agree. You know, if I were cynical, especially in regards to pitwall3's point, I might say that it remains an open question who "won the open wheel war"; Maybe TG the man won over The Three Amigos in their battle, but the CART/Champ Car concept, in terms of tech specs, is winning the long term debate. But that would be cynical and I am not that.

I don't think that's being cynical. That's just what has happened. It leaves us in a very interesting time because the traditional CART fanbase is upset because Tony won the war, and the traditional IRL fanbase is upset because Tony has converted the IRL into a schedule that looks just like the old CART schedule, and other changes are making it look more like CCWS.

Adopting turbos does not in any way mean making it like CART or CCWS. The field of 33 was full of turbo Offy's years before CART was even an idea. CART simply adopted USAC's specs.

[F1boat]

I don't know what to say, but of Indy Car turns into a CCWS-like series I will stop watching it. If it is like CART, it's cool, amazing, but I want more ovals, like in current IRL and less street courses. I am sorry but Toronto, Belle Isle etc are simply NOT like Valencia or Monte Carlo. Only Long Beach is cool.
So if they make a series which mixes the best from IRL and CART, amazing, great. If they make a GP2-clone like the CCWS, with majority of street courses, standing starts, GP2-like cars and European unknown drivers - it's over for me.

I like the IRL as it is now. And the CART as it was in the 90-ies. The original IRL and the CCWS was extremes. I like neither. Yet I can say that the original IRL was at least distinguished, different. CCWS was like GP 2.
And I hate European junior formula racing.

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag, I take you at your word that Ford was not at the round table (a shame) but I'll bet you that Dan Davis at Ford Racing asked his Mazda counterpart to give him the full 411 on the meeting to see if there was anything they might look at down the road.

The IRL claimed there were 12 engine related participants and those are the ones that were named. If Ford had a rep there, it was not reported. For whatever reason, Ford doesn't seem to have any interest in getting back into AOWR. It may have to do with Ford's current financial state. More likely it has to do with the lack of return for the necessary investment. Plus, the higher ups at Ford still seem to have an issue with Honda's will to win at all costs.

As for Dan Davis, he announced his retirement as Director of Ford Racing several months ago. He left a few weeks ago and was replaced by another Ford vet by the name of Brian Wolfe. I know that Mazda's racing operations and budget are separate from Ford's, and I don't know what information might have passed between them.

Of course, I don't know who is going to do what going forward. But given GM's recent budget cutbacks in other racing programs, I don't look for them to do anything in the IRL. Nissan and Toyota didn't attend the conference, and Toyota seems to have a been there done that outlook, once they leave a series (IMSA, Le Mans, WRC, CART). Volkswagen and Audi were listed separately, but are under the same ownership umbrella. If anything, it will be one or the other. Speedway Engines is way out of its league with the named group. Ilmor is already in the game with Honda. AER, Cosworth and Judd will likely only build engines if someone badges. Depending on what happens with the rumored Chrysler deal, Fiat hasn't established a complete plan of action for North America, as far as I know. Mazda is a good maybe. But I don't see Mazda having the money to really compete with Honda or any major manufacturer. BMW is probably the most legit prospective manufacturer out of the named group. They also have a great marketing arm.

Unlike the spin that took place with the Versus TV deal, if the IRL happened to get BMW and/or Audi, to go along with Honda (committed through 2013, as I understand it), that would be considered a legitimate homerun, IMO. Not only would those companies bring about an air of legitimacy, but they also would bring along some much needed sponsorships (that they would likely activate).

Here's my wild azz guess: a chassis that will closely resemble the DP-01 (more the DP-01 or the old Lola/Reynard than the current Dallara/Panoz) and a 3.0 liter +/- turbo V-6 that will put out between 700-750hp. The current IRL package has a horsepower/weight ratio that's almost identical to the GP2 package (depending on where the data comes from, GP2 seems to have a slight hp/weight advantage). I'd say the IRL would want to improve on that, play with the aero and make the series more of a talent contest, rather than a setup/foot-to-the-floor contest, at least on ovals.

[dataman1]

My take is based upon some older statements from Barnard in that he is very happy with Dallara. When the turbo spec is decided then Dallara can still build a new chassis to fit the engine decision.

As I've stated in the past, the ICS needs to go in the same direction as the public passenger car manufacturers wish to go. If that is a dual tubo 4 cylinder, a single turbo or a TDI it does not matter. If the ICS wants their money, it has to be worth something to them. That means some of us will be happy and some not but the series will be richer and stronger.

[Jag_Warrior]

Kind of off-topic, but if someone wanted to use a Panoz IRL chassis right now, would it be allowed?

[Alfa Fan]

Kind of off-topic, but if someone wanted to use a Panoz IRL chassis right now, would it be allowed?

No. The Panoz chassis is only eligible for the Indy 500, and I'm not even sure it will be eligible for that in 2009.

[fan-veteran]

So V6? I cannot see such a turbo engine for IRL being more than 2.5L. And what rpms, maybe somewhere 10k-11k (as is now). The power limit for speed/safety issues on ovals was proved to be around 700-720 bhp. For road and street courses of course power can be increased to something like 800 bhp or even more without speeds reaching somekind of dangerous levels.

[DBell]

Why not make the engine design more open for the builders? Instead of saying it has to be a V6, just give a displacement limit and a cylinder limit and let the manufacturers decide what kind of engine they want to build.

[Chaparral66]

The IRL claimed there were 12 engine related participants and those are the ones that were named. If Ford had a rep there, it was not reported. For whatever reason, Ford doesn't seem to have any interest in getting back into AOWR. It may have to do with Ford's current financial state. More likely it has to do with the lack of return for the necessary investment. Plus, the higher ups at Ford still seem to have an issue with Honda's will to win at all costs.

As for Dan Davis, he announced his retirement as Director of Ford Racing several months ago. He left a few weeks ago and was replaced by another Ford vet by the name of Brian Wolfe. I know that Mazda's racing operations and budget are separate from Ford's, and I don't know what information might have passed between them.

Of course, I don't know who is going to do what going forward. But given GM's recent budget cutbacks in other racing programs, I don't look for them to do anything in the IRL. Nissan and Toyota didn't attend the conference, and Toyota seems to have a been there done that outlook, once they leave a series (IMSA, Le Mans, WRC, CART). Volkswagen and Audi were listed separately, but are under the same ownership umbrella. If anything, it will be one or the other. Speedway Engines is way out of its league with the named group. Ilmor is already in the game with Honda. AER, Cosworth and Judd will likely only build engines if someone badges. Depending on what happens with the rumored Chrysler deal, Fiat hasn't established a complete plan of action for North America, as far as I know. Mazda is a good maybe. But I don't see Mazda having the money to really compete with Honda or any major manufacturer. BMW is probably the most legit prospective manufacturer out of the named group. They also have a great marketing arm.

Unlike the spin that took place with the Versus TV deal, if the IRL happened to get BMW and/or Audi, to go along with Honda (committed through 2013, as I understand it), that would be considered a legitimate homerun, IMO. Not only would those companies bring about an air of legitimacy, but they also would bring along some much needed sponsorships (that they would likely activate).

Here's my wild azz guess: a chassis that will closely resemble the DP-01 (more the DP-01 or the old Lola/Reynard than the current Dallara/Panoz) and a 3.0 liter +/- turbo V-6 that will put out between 700-750hp. The current IRL package has a horsepower/weight ratio that's almost identical to the GP2 package (depending on where the data comes from, GP2 seems to have a slight hp/weight advantage). I'd say the IRL would want to improve on that, play with the aero and make the series more of a talent contest, rather than a setup/foot-to-the-floor contest, at least on ovals.

I hadn't heard that Dan Davis retired, thanks for the 411 on that, Jag. Davis did a great job during his time there, hopefully he'll remain as a consultant.

I think for a manufacturer to be viable in coming on board they should be selling cars here in the US. Not sure why Fiat would go for it. But BMW could benefit, as well as Audi (more than VW, I think). it would be nice to have a variety of world manufacturers to spice it up a bit, with at least one domestic manf.

[SportscarBruce]

Why not make the engine design more open for the builders? Instead of saying it has to be a V6, just give a displacement limit and a cylinder limit and let the manufacturers decide what kind of engine they want to build.

Exactamundo

[Jag_Warrior]

So V6? I cannot see such a turbo engine for IRL being more than 2.5L. And what rpms, maybe somewhere 10k-11k (as is now). The power limit for speed/safety issues on ovals was proved to be around 700-720 bhp. For road and street courses of course power can be increased to something like 800 bhp or even more without speeds reaching somekind of dangerous levels.

Years ago, a fellow from Cosworth posted here every now and again. Other than him, the only other person who I believe could (reliably) address that would be Hoop98. Certainly there have been small displacement, race bred turbo 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the past that could easily hit 700-800hp. In the case of the BMW and TAG-Porsche F1 units of the 80's, 700-800hp would have been nothing special. I don't know what boost levels they ran, but I know the fuel mixtures were exotic, to say the least. Assuming they stay with ethanol, what size V-6, spinning how fast, with how much boost would be necessary to get that 700-800hp???

I think what the IRL is going to have to balance is performance vs. cost. For about $15 million per 2 car team per season, they could run F1 spec engines (based on some Cosworth numbers from a couple of seasons ago). We all know that's not realistic for the IRL. So what is? I don't know... something close to the million or so that they have now? Don't know. And if you allow the manufacturers to subsidize teams with discounted engines, what happens if & when a manufacturer leaves? What happens if they only want to subsidize certain teams and not others? What happens if the top manufacturer only wants to supply the top (or certain) teams? For whatever reason, the IRL chose to follow CART's engine lease path. Depending on who and how many sign on, it'll be interesting to see how this issue is dealt with too.

[Jag_Warrior]

I hadn't heard that Dan Davis retired, thanks for the 411 on that, Jag. Davis did a great job during his time there, hopefully he'll remain as a consultant.

I think for a manufacturer to be viable in coming on board they should be selling cars here in the US. Not sure why Fiat would go for it. But BMW could benefit, as well as Audi (more than VW, I think). it would be nice to have a variety of world manufacturers to spice it up a bit, with at least one domestic manf.

I'm not sure what Davis' future plans are. I agree, he did a very good job while heading up Ford Racing. I never met him but I've not heard anyone at Ford say a bad word about him. He (and Ford) put up with a lot of crap from Tony George, CART and Champ Car over the years. It's interesting that both he and Robert Clarke retired within a month of each other. Their jobs must have been like working with people set on committing suicide at every turn.

Anyway, Fiat's interest would likely revolve around the Alfa Romeo brand, which is supposed to be making a return to North America in 2010 or so. Fiat Group is already here with Ferrari and Maserati. I've heard BMW linked to the Fiat Auto/Alfa return. I've also heard Chrysler linked to that return. Who knows?

In global automotive, several interesting things are taking place. Porsche's takeover of VW/Audi should soon be complete. How that might affect racing programs at either concern is unknown. At the same time, VW wants more share in the U.S. and is expanding its presence in North America by building a plant in Tennessee. By 2011, one (or more) of the Big 3 will either be much smaller than now... or dead. That should affect NASCAR more than the IRL... but who knows what the fallout might be?

[Rex Monaco]

Why not make the engine design more open for the builders? Instead of saying it has to be a V6, just give a displacement limit and a cylinder limit and let the manufacturers decide what kind of engine they want to build.

+1

[fan-veteran]

Who will pay that diversity? :)

[bblocker68]

V6 Turbo's? WooHoo, the Buick is making a comeback :) Someone get John Menard on the phone. He loved those things!!

[Rex Monaco]

Who will pay that diversity? :)

Charge me an extra $10.00 per ticket. I'd be happy to contribute.

[Chaparral66]

I'm not sure what Davis' future plans are. I agree, he did a very good job while heading up Ford Racing. I never met him but I've not heard anyone at Ford say a bad word about him. He (and Ford) put up with a lot of crap from Tony George, CART and Champ Car over the years. It's interesting that both he and Robert Clarke retired within a month of each other. Their jobs must have been like working with people set on committing suicide at every turn.

Anyway, Fiat's interest would likely revolve around the Alfa Romeo brand, which is supposed to be making a return to North America in 2010 or so. Fiat Group is already here with Ferrari and Maserati. I've heard BMW linked to the Fiat Auto/Alfa return. I've also heard Chrysler linked to that return. Who knows?

In global automotive, several interesting things are taking place. Porsche's takeover of VW/Audi should soon be complete. How that might affect racing programs at either concern is unknown. At the same time, VW wants more share in the U.S. and is expanding its presence in North America by building a plant in Tennessee. By 2011, one (or more) of the Big 3 will either be much smaller than now... or dead. That should affect NASCAR more than the IRL... but who knows what the fallout might be?


I wonder if the IRL can get any PR mileage out smaller displacement engines with the increased fuel economy, while attracking back the turbo fans of yore? Handled right, could be a win-win...

[Miatanut]

Why not make the engine design more open for the builders? Instead of saying it has to be a V6, just give a displacement limit and a cylinder limit and let the manufacturers decide what kind of engine they want to build.

Why control even that? Why not just give them an air restrictor diameter? That's why ALMS has 4's, 6's & 8's, and all different displacements.

[Rex Monaco]

Barnhart expects no more than "three or four" to be involved when the new configuration hits the track, but Honda, the league's only current supplier, would be happy to have competition.

It is up to the league, Barnhart said, to determine how many participants there will be in 2011 so the manufacturers will know how many cars they will need to supply.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080825/FREE/308189881/1528/newsletter01

[Chaparral66]

Barnhart expects no more than "three or four" to be involved when the new configuration hits the track, but Honda, the league's only current supplier, would be happy to have competition.

It is up to the league, Barnhart said, to determine how many participants there will be in 2011 so the manufacturers will know how many cars they will need to supply.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080825/FREE/308189881/1528/newsletter01

OK, now who would benefit the most from the new formula? Can anyone see any new rivalries coming from this, say Honda vs. Audi, or Nissan vs. BMW vs. Dodge? I think you have to have something like this to get a real substantial crossover of fans back into it.

[nigelred5]

2.0 Litre, turbocharged/intercooled 4 cylinder, fuel must be derived from biomatter. That could be ethanol or bioD. Relevance to the auto consumer, easily adaptable basic engine architecture to other formulae in NA, turbocharged or suprecharged applications. While i suspect they may go V6, I think the step all the way back to 4 cyl. make the most sense to the manufacturers from a marketing and engineering standpoint, and what manufacturer doesn't already have a 4 cylinder in the street car lineup they would love to promote right now?

[Bob Riebe]

After reading that article I truly hope Indy car racing self-destructs, what pile of crap.
A glorified SCCA quasi-spec. formula class, they actually make spec. CC look good now.

Mufflers to quite the current engine, whom ever is in charge is a complete asinine pile of fecal debri.

Bob

[Bob Riebe]

.

[Chaparral66]

Where'd that car come from?

[nigelred5]

For whatever reason, the IRL chose to follow CART's engine lease path. Depending on who and how many sign on, it'll be interesting to see how this issue is dealt with too.

I would assume that has something to do with the manufacturers' unwillingness to sell it's engines outright and then have it's reputation damaged when Joe Schmoe the engine builder drops his chewing gum in the crankcase and the engine goes blammo? Honda does not like having people see it's engines hand grenade. I remember the days of their F1 V12's. IIRC, they almost pulled out of F1 over it and I do seem recall virtually their entire engine team was dismissed at one point.

No way can I see a company like BMW or Audi entrusting their engine builds to a third party if they are going to be races in a series with the visibility like the IRL. Dinan building a few Grand AM Sports car engines for the Samax team is different IMHO, than supplying say 8 to 10 or more cars a season in Indycars. I don't believe Audi has any privateer teams in ELMS/ALMS P1 do they? I've lost track.

If the series decides against engine leases, I don't foresee anyone new entering the series in '10-'11 and providing any sort of agressive promotion of their involvement.


I would still prefer to see the league set down a set o guideline for supplying a minimum of 30% of the field based on the number of manufacturers, mandate a "pump" fuel criteria and give them the freedom to run what they brung.

[fan-veteran]

So, one way is to have diversity without actual rivalry, but it's immitation because of severe health (and financial) consequences if rivalry becomes quite real, oh wait ..... it has been already invented - WWE - World Wrestling Entertainment :) . So why not rename IRL to WRE - World Racing Entertainment .... :)


Get me right - IMO this is one of the ways expenditures may be kept down and a lot of manufacturers taking part of the game, said with sense of humour.

[Bob Riebe]

Where'd that car come from?wrong thread. Sorry
Delete please.

[Bob Riebe]

.Please delete the picture in the wrong thread-aaarrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[MAX_THRUST]

Fantatic news and best of all its been annouced early to give the manufacturers time to develop and submit their 10 cents worth.

Sort out the ugly car with old Reynards and Lolas and I'd be happy.....

[MAX_THRUST]

I appreciate we will not have Reynards and Lolas, but those cars looked bigger than DPo1 and the IRL cars.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

2.0 Litre, turbocharged/intercooled 4 cylinder, fuel must be derived from biomatter. That could be ethanol or bioD. Relevance to the auto consumer, easily adaptable basic engine architecture to other formulae in NA, turbocharged or suprecharged applications. While i suspect they may go V6, I think the step all the way back to 4 cyl. make the most sense to the manufacturers from a marketing and engineering standpoint, and what manufacturer doesn't already have a 4 cylinder in the street car lineup they would love to promote right now?

I could live with that, but only second generation biofuels should be permitted.

[garyshell]

I could live with that, but only second generation biofuels should be permitted.


I hope that means non-food crop based.

Gary

[Mad_Hatter]

what manufacturer doesn't already have a 4 cylinder in the street car lineup...?

BMW?? ...not sure.



I don't believe Audi has any privateer teams in ELMS/ALMS P1 do they? I've lost track.

I think there's a rumor of a customer team next year. No current customers though.

[Mad_Hatter]

Why control even that? Why not just give them an air restrictor diameter? That's why ALMS has 4's, 6's & 8's, and all different displacements.

+1



I would assume that has something to do with the manufacturers' unwillingness to sell it's engines outright and then have it's reputation damaged when Joe Schmoe the engine builder drops his chewing gum in the crankcase and the engine goes blammo? Honda does not like having people see it's engines hand grenade.

I'd always thought it was because they wanted to keep control of their R&D knowledge. Similar to how Peugeot supposedly has some trick suspension setup. They also are having the diesel battle with Audi so want to keep a wrap on their goings ons. Vice versa with Audi.



I think it's especially important to also get the number of manufacturers right. People don't particularly like paying to have their cans handed to them on a yearly basis so before you know it you could be back to two manufacturers screwing the sport over.