Optional Tires/Standing Starts for 09 ?

[pitwall3]

Looks like the IRL will take the plunge next year.

Quote:

IRL: Paddock rumours and news
Indy Racing League officials are on the verge of imitating the former Champ Car
series by adopting Firestone's optional tires for its street circuits and road courses starting in 2009. Those tires used in the Champ Car events were the ones with red stripes.

Those same officials are also in the process of evaluating the use of standing starts on those same types of circuits as soon as next year. They proved to be safe and exciting when they were used on road courses and street circuits in 2007.


http://www.auto123.com:80/en/racing-news/irl/irl-paddock-rumours-and-news?artid=100438

[ShiftingGears]

Good, because tradition or not, rolling starts on road courses and street circuits is a stupid idea.

[DanicaFan]

I dont like standing starts on any course. I hope they nix that idea.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Standings starts on road courses are more exciting, suspenseful, fair and safe.

[jimispeed]

Standing starts with those cars ought to be exciting........

So quick off the line........

:rolleyes:

[speeddurango]

Nah, optional tyres might work or not but it doesn't really matter since current road course races are just as bad as one can imagine but standing start is a bad idea to me personally. But I do understand a lot of people like it. But to me, only Indycar (oh and A1GP sprint race) in the advanced open wheel racing category still does rolling start these days and they should just keep the tradition.

[Lousada]

The optional tyre is a stupid gimmick, I hope they ditch that. There is too much strategy involved with fuel conservation as it is now, I don't want tyres to add to that. I want to see racing, not strategy.
Preferring standing starts or rolling starts is just a difference in a person's perception, it doesn't make a difference.

[bblocker68]

Standing starts may be interesting, but optional tires on these piggy piggies?? Do we really need that? I really never saw a huge passing benefit with them implemented. I think the "passing lane" made for better passing than optional tires ever did. Then again, I'm not a big fan of any of those "gimmicks".

[SarahFan]

standing starts are cool...optional tires not so much

[Miatanut]

Standing starts with those cars ought to be exciting........

So quick off the line........

:rolleyes:

:D

[Miatanut]

The drivers in CCWS and F1 have both complained that the optionals degrade too quickly. If they made the "option tire" the current tire and made the new "standard" tire a two stint tire (less marbles), I think they would get the effect they were originally trying for. A tire you want to use for the part of the race where you want to be aggressive. Not a tire you have to use to get it over with.

[SarahFan]

I'd rather see them 1/2 the size of the tank.....

more green flag pitstops...and make it take longer to change tires than fuel the car....

* I know it adds an additional element of danger....but fans love pitstops, the break up the follow the leader we see during the middle part of the race, and brings (even) more of the team element into the mix

[F1boat]

I don't like neither of the ideas. Why imitate a series which died?

[garyshell]

The optional tyre is a stupid gimmick, I hope they ditch that. There is too much strategy involved with fuel conservation as it is now, I don't want tyres to add to that. I want to see racing, not strategy.
Preferring standing starts or rolling starts is just a difference in a person's perception, it doesn't make a difference.


Tell me, when did you EVER see racing without strategy?

Gary

[garyshell]

I don't like neither of the ideas. Why imitate a series which died?

Why is this considered imitating? And you are assuming that ONLY ChampCar ever used these two ideas. That is not true at all. As a matter of fact the auto racing series referenced in your screen name does both, no? And they most assuredly are not dead.

Gary

[F1boat]

Why is this considered imitating? And you are assuming that ONLY ChampCar ever used these two ideas. That is not true at all. As a matter of fact the auto racing series referenced in your screen name does both, no? And they most assuredly are not dead.

Gary

How can a powerboat use a flying start :s hock:

[chuck34]

I don't like the standing starts. The option tire could be cool if they allowed you to actually choose to use them or not. Don't mandate their use.

[pits4me]

Standing starts, option tires and dedicated passing lanes all lead to better excitement on non-oval circuits. Too bad push-to-pass is off the table.

[pitwall3]

Its gotta be good because RM likes it.

Quote:
*** If the IRL is going to be smart enough to add optional tires, it's a no-brainer to also go with another Champ Car novelty -- standing starts. They proved to be safe, sane and exciting in 2007 on road courses and street circuits. No crashes in the first turn of the first lap at Portland, Toronto and Cleveland, which always promoted carnage with flying starts.

[pitwall3]

Turbos next???

[fugariracing]

A merged series should incorporate the best of both, right? Most of this year has been IRL priority with regards to teams, tracks, and cars. If down the road some of what CC had are integrated, the series has the potential to improve. I liked the standing starts last year and they were devoid of accidents.

[DrDomm]

Standing starts, option tires and dedicated passing lanes all lead to better excitement on non-oval circuits. Too bad push-to-pass is off the table.

Exactly. Short of having multiple chassis, engine, and tire manufacturers, option tires and P2P can accentuate some differences among the near-spec cars...if done right.

Standing starts just make sense on a roadcourse, where well-executed and fair rolling starts are nearly impossible.

The passing lane is an interesting idea, but I'm not completely sold on that.

[Miatanut]

The passing lane is an interesting idea, but I'm not completely sold on that.

It completely transformed San Jose.

Not so much a "passing lane" as "pick your lane and stick to it. Definitely led to a lot more passing.

[garyshell]

It completely transformed San Jose.

Not so much a "passing lane" as "pick your lane and stick to it. Definitely led to a lot more passing.

I like what it did too! I am so tired of watching the blocking moves that in a closed wheel series would never be tolerated by a competitor. In a closed wheel series some of those moves would get the you punted off the track. But for some reason the officials in open wheel are reluctant to enforce the rules on blocking. I think the painted line made it easier to enforce the already existing rule.

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

dedicated passing lanes all lead to better excitement on non-oval circuits.

What an insanely stupid idea.

[AussieV8]

IMHO standing starts and option tyres should not be part of IndyCar. These idiotic ideas didn't help Champ Car and I wish they would remove the option tyre from F1. These gimmicks were not part of CART and were only a part of Champ Car when they were trying to save a dying series. I'm saying this as a fan of CART of the 90's, not the budget version we saw in the last few years.

Rather than making the racing more artificial, I would rather see multiple engine manufacturers back and multiple chassis.

[MAX_THRUST]

I have always prefered rolling starts....Don't know why, when I first got into CART thats what made it different to F1 I guess, and drew my attention. Option tyres, just brings more statergy and gives teams more options, I don't mind if they want to let them.

Less down force might be better, and I'd love to see Turbo engines to make the series more distinct from many others. Tiny little 2 ltr engines with turbos. The noise oh the noise.

[anthonyvop]

Option Tires...Ok
Standing Starts.....YES.

But what I really want is no Yellow Flag Pit-stops!

[ShiftingGears]

The passing lane is a dreadful idea. Completely devalues passing moves. It sounds like a NASCAR gimmick, with no place in a racing series.

[garyshell]

The passing lane is a dreadful idea. Completely devalues passing moves. It sounds like a NASCAR gimmick, with no place in a racing series.

As a means to clearly enforce a "do not block" rule, I think it is a GREAT idea. It seemed to work really well in San Jose.

Gary

[pits4me]

As a means to clearly enforce a "do not block" rule, I think it is a GREAT idea. It seemed to work really well in San Jose.

Gary

Cotman threw down the gauntlet to freight train racing.

[F1-ographic]

I like the standing starts for road and street courses. It is really the only way to insure a fair start. It would also add another skill needed to perform at this level of racing.

[ShiftingGears]

As a means to clearly enforce a "do not block" rule, I think it is a GREAT idea. It seemed to work really well in San Jose.

Gary

Blocking is part of defending your position, which is part of racing. If there is not "enough" overtaking at circuits like San Jose, the reasons are...

1. The circuit is too tight for passing under real racing conditions
OR
2. The car is too unsuitable for actual racing (which should never be a problem under the ideal control chassis formula)

IMO the "one move" blocking rule for F1 works well. I think the passing lane idea is dreadful. Because some circuits offer different challenges to drivers, one being the difficulty of executing passing moves.

[F1boat]

I like the standing starts for road and street courses. It is really the only way to insure a fair start. It would also add another skill needed to perform at this level of racing.

Why? It is an F1-like rule. It is true that standing start adds one skill, but rolling adds another. IndyCar uses a rolling start and should stay that way, like Le Mans. Standing starts are for F-1.

[F1boat]

Thanks for the info, Startet, now I remember the old movies about Le Mans I watched. F1 was the same once, I think.

[ShiftingGears]

Thanks for the info, Startet, now I remember the old movies about Le Mans I watched. F1 was the same once, I think.

Nah, F1 always had standing starts.

[Placid]

Option Tires...Ok
Standing Starts.....YES.

But what I really want is no Yellow Flag Pit-stops!

Agreed. It may not get a US driver in F1, but this is a start in the road and street courses.

For both Indy and Indy lights.

Star Mazda and Atlantic have adapted to standing starts.

[F1boat]

Nah, F1 always had standing starts.

Didn't they run to the cars in the Fangio-era?

[ShiftingGears]

Didn't they run to the cars in the Fangio-era?

Nope. All standing starts.

[F1boat]

Thank you for the info.

[spiritone]

My,My,My what happened to tonys vision. First it was the road races, then it was the street circuts, soon its going to be turbo's. Now we're on to standing starts and optional tires. Does anybody in the irl have an original thought.

Does it dawn on any of you that it was never about getting american drivers in the series or having an all oval series, it was always about control.

Tell me, all you irl fans who bought into the original idea that it was about americans in a all oval series, how are you enjoying champcar 2.

[garyshell]

Does it dawn on any of you that it was never about getting american drivers in the series or having an all oval series, it was always about control.

Wow there Einstein, did you figure that out all by yourself? Wasn't that obvious to EVERYONE on both sides of the war from day one?


Tell me, all you irl fans who bought into the original idea that it was about americans in a all oval series, how are you enjoying champcar 2.

And all the champcar fans who didn't (I among them) how are YOU enjoying champcar2. I am, now that there are fuller fields.

Gary

[Miatanut]

My,My,My what happened to tonys vision.....

Careful there! That sort of talk gets some folks around here really bent out of shape.

[Miatanut]

Wasn't that obvious to EVERYONE on both sides of the war from day one?
Gary

I don't think it was obvious to a lot of people. It was obvious to CART fans, who saw it as a broadside attack. To the folks who hated the whole road course direction, it was their saviour taking the sport back to its roots. Just check out the various meltdowns over the years at TF as, bit-by-bit, the original "Vision" has been left behind.

[spiritone]

Gary,Gary, once again you jump to the bait.

Enjoying what? According to this forum the race at sonoma was a bore, attended by a sparce crowd and drawing its usual low tv rating.

Next year really looks good with all those cars on Versus. Have fun.

[garyshell]

Does it dawn on any of you that it was never about getting american drivers in the series or having an all oval series, it was always about control.


Wow there Einstein, did you figure that out all by yourself? Wasn't that obvious to EVERYONE on both sides of the war from day one?


Gary,Gary, once again you jump to the bait.

Oh, so your entire intent here is just baiting folks? I think it rather telling that you totally ignored the first part of my reply.

Gary

[-Helix-]

My,My,My what happened to tonys vision. First it was the road races, then it was the street circuts, soon its going to be turbo's. Now we're on to standing starts and optional tires. Does anybody in the irl have an original thought.

Does it dawn on any of you that it was never about getting american drivers in the series or having an all oval series, it was always about control.

Tell me, all you irl fans who bought into the original idea that it was about americans in a all oval series, how are you enjoying champcar 2.

Original vision?

Maybe you should learn something about what you're talking about before you go making yourself look silly.

Please provide me with sources for this "original vision" that you and others seem to think actually existed.

TG was looking out for his race and proved that the Indy 500 is AOWR and the reason he won the war. Of course it as all about control. Welcome to America. Welcome to Capitalism. Welcome to business practices 101.

It amazes me how blindly people can live. AOWR is not some perfect little world that is exempt from reality. :o

The IRL, like any business, is changing to appeal to it's fanbase. It was NEVER intended to be an all oval series. Find me a single quote by TG or any IRL official that says otherwise.

[-Helix-]

I don't think it was obvious to a lot of people. It was obvious to CART fans, who saw it as a broadside attack. To the folks who hated the whole road course direction, it was their saviour taking the sport back to its roots. Just check out the various meltdowns over the years at TF as, bit-by-bit, the original "Vision" has been left behind.

To anyone with common sense it was obvious.

The split happened because TG was doing his job and being a businessman by looking out for his race and power, and the CART guys refused to work with him which would be their downfall. CART thought they were bigger than they were and that they could run an AOW series without the Indy 500. TG ended up proving them wrong and winning the war, thus gaining power of the AOWR world. The war was just a 12 year change in power which solidified the notion that the 500 is the entire reason Indianapolis-style car racing exists. (which should've been common sense too - obviously not for CART though)

[NickFalzone]

I think it comes down to either:

a. you're happy with the changes the series is making
b. you're not

Dredging up past comments, "vision", etc. means nothing beyond talking points to try and advance a weak argument.

[spiritone]

So it was all about business and protecting his territory. Okay, what your telling me is that tg, to protect his business, ran the openwheel racing business into the ground to gain control. Does this sound like a smart business move.

For those of you who remember Indy car (champ car, cart) racing was the top racing in North America. It also was international recognized as one of the top series in the world. Reducing it to a series that is going to televised on Versus was a brilliant business move.

What was needed then and is still needed now was COPERATION between all party's. It didn't happen then and it isn't happening now. If the indy 500 is the only reason for indycars to exist than the series is doomed to failure.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

My,My,My what happened to tonys vision. First it was the road races, then it was the street circuts, soon its going to be turbo's. Now we're on to standing starts and optional tires. Does anybody in the irl have an original thought.

Does it dawn on any of you that it was never about getting american drivers in the series or having an all oval series, it was always about control.

Tell me, all you irl fans who bought into the original idea that it was about americans in a all oval series, how are you enjoying champcar 2.

What happened with Tony's vision? He admitted that it failed. It happened years ago, though he didn't exactly say it. Nevertheless, he admitted it when he brought in the big money foreign manufacturers, big CART teams, then road courses and street courses... Whether he had the courage to admit openly he was wrong, that is immaterial. Anyway, those fans you're talking about, they are moaning at another forum. One guy's signature there says "Bring back IRL 1996-2002."

[Miatanut]

Please provide me with sources for this "original vision" that you and others seem to think actually existed.

TG was looking out for his race and proved that the Indy 500 is AOWR and the reason he won the war. Of course it as all about control. Welcome to America. Welcome to Capitalism. Welcome to business practices 101....It was NEVER intended to be an all oval series. Find me a single quote by TG or any IRL official that says otherwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BI
There were also the articles in On Track and Autoweek reporting on this new development and describing it as an all-oval series, and guess what? It started out as an all-oval series. There were no road courses in America which weren't already on the CART schedule which they could race at? There were no airports or cities where they could put up a temporary course? Of course they could have done those things, but his public point was American racing should stay within America, and be all ovals, like it was when he was a kid.

CART fans saw it as an attempt to control the sport disguised as the creation of an all-oval alternative. Oval racing fans saw it as their savior bringing the good old days back.

As far as business goes, Tony flat-out bought control of the sport. It wasn't the free market operating so the best product would win. One need only look at the difference in crowds for qualifying at CART or CCWS races against qualifying at IRL races. CCWS got a bigger crowd for TESTING at Laguna Seca than the IRL got at any qualifying session outside of Indy last year.

Tony now has what he sought. Control of the sport. Only problem is, most of those folks who used to buy tickets to the race and to see qualifying, even in the rain, have said 'thanks but no thanks' to the new order. On average, attendance is flat, and TV ratings have made a very small uptick. I really thought reunification would make a bigger impact than this. I think it COULD have made a bigger impact than this, if Tony did everything he could to make it appear as a merger rather than a take-over. He has only his own ego to blame there.

Although it has probably happened, I cannot recall another time in American capitalism when one player sought to corner the market, spent hundreds of million$ to do that, and in the process shrunk the market to less than half what it was before they started their takeover process, to the point where their own annual revenue was less than it was before, when they had only a small part of the market.

[Miatanut]

To anyone with common sense it was obvious.

The split happened because TG was doing his job and being a businessman by looking out for his race and power, and the CART guys refused to work with him which would be their downfall. CART thought they were bigger than they were and that they could run an AOW series without the Indy 500. TG ended up proving them wrong and winning the war, thus gaining power of the AOWR world. The war was just a 12 year change in power which solidified the notion that the 500 is the entire reason Indianapolis-style car racing exists. (which should've been common sense too - obviously not for CART though)

So CART had a better product and put their opposition out of business in one year flat. The former opposition's backer spends 14 years plotting how to get even and comes up with a pretty good plan to exploit the internal stresses in CART to bring it down, and succeeds. Some businessmen who don't want to give up win what's left of CART in bankruptcy court because the judge can see the other side is not acting in good faith. They give it a shot on the cheap, while the other side continues to dump money into the war, which is bringing the entire sport down. The businessmen see they are fighting somebody who finds mutually assured destruction an acceptable outcome and make the smart business move to exit the scene. Finally, 12 years later, the war is "won" and the sport is in shambles.

To anyone with common sense, the war was a failure.

Tony was in a much better position in 1994. I think he knows that, which is why he now looks ten years older than his age.

Now, we have something which is trying to copy the appearances of CART and CCWS, because it is clear to almost everyone that they were a better product, but because anyone with significant cash to invest in the sport knows the leadership doesn't know what it's doing, they are staying away. Pissed-off fans are staying away.

What a great "win"!

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't think Marcus Agrippa or Erwin Rommel could have done a finer job.

To the (true) winner go the spoils:
http://msn.foxsports.com/id/3353352_36_4.jpg

:p :

[garyshell]

CART fans saw it as an attempt to control the sport disguised as the creation of an all-oval alternative. Oval racing fans saw it as their savior bringing the good old days back.

I think the last line should read: Oval racing fans saw it as their savior attempting to control the sport and bring the good old days back.

I was not among them. I was clearly in the CART camp, but I don't discount the IRL folks the way you do as being blind to the attempt to control the sport. I am pretty sure they knew it as well as anyone else.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

To the (true) winner go the spoils:
http://msn.foxsports.com/id/3353352_36_4.jpg

+1

[Rex Monaco]

TG was looking out for his race and proved that the Indy 500 is AOWR and the reason he won the war.

And in the process he destroyed the prestige of the race.

The Coca-Cola 600 and the Daytona 500 have both surpassed it in TV ratings while he was 'looking out for it'.

I was even expecting an official name change to the Honda Motorspeedway, so they could officially call the race the Honda 500.

[call_me_andrew]

The passing lane is a dreadful idea. Completely devalues passing moves. It sounds like a NASCAR gimmick, with no place in a racing series.

No, NASCAR allows and encourages blocking.


How can a powerboat use a flying start :s hock:

Well I'm not familair with all forms of powerboat racing, but in unlimited hydroplane racing, there's a starting line and a countdown clock. The drivers can go as fast as they want before reaching the starting line, but if they cross the line before the clock hits zero it's a disqualification.

[Scheckterfan54]

Let me start by saying that I am an IRL fan from the beginning. This being said, all we are seeing is the best assets of the IRL(oval racing, Indy, Big teams<although they were once champcar assets>, mainstream TV package, and biggest of all...sponsorship dollars) and Champcar( Historical rights, Road Course expertise, Turbos, Standing starts for road races, option tires, and the young drivers that are now able to flourish with a little bit more attention from the average American sports fan) coming together to one package. In order for something to be a merger, things do have to merge. I am excited about the future of this series and I wish the fans that are in this forum would also be excited.

[Wilf]

Give us all a break. Seven months ago TG was saying it was probably too late to do anything this year and yet we are now one race away from naming a champion of the unified series, Yes, I know there are two races left on the schedule, but surfers is an "exhibition" for the lack of a better term.

In spite of the short preparation time there have been ten different winners this year including three from transition teams. A schedule has been announced including one more venue from the "old schedule."

It is a shame all the ills of the AOWR have not been corrected in the last six months; but, I don't remember anyone promising to do that.

The "Risky" TV deal is that, a risk, but to stay with what we had last year apparently wasn't even an option.

Quit if you want, but please don't try to ruin others enjoyment.

[ShiftingGears]

No, NASCAR allows and encourages blocking.

It is a gimmick similar to caution flags in that actual racing becomes a casualty in order to manufacture spectacle.

[BoilerIMS]

Folks, get back on topic. This is not supposed to be a political thread.

[Miatanut]

I think the last line should read: Oval racing fans saw it as their savior attempting to control the sport and bring the good old days back.

I was not among them. I was clearly in the CART camp, but I don't discount the IRL folks the way you do as being blind to the attempt to control the sport. I am pretty sure they knew it as well as anyone else.

Gary

I hope not.

CART was a democracy of the owners. A would-be dictator wanted to take the sport over. Why wouldn't anybody for Indy, mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet be against such an un-American concept?

[NickFalzone]

I hope not.

CART was a democracy of the owners. A would-be dictator wanted to take the sport over. Why wouldn't anybody for Indy, mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet be against such an un-American concept?

That's the foxes watching the henhouse, doesn't work (and didn't work).

[anupacraig]

Even though the power is modest up to 2500 rpm, the transmission's lower-gear ratios keep the Ralliart from being too sluggish from a standing start. If you find the base Mitsubishi Lancer ($13,990) a little too poky and the Lancer Evolution ($32,990) too pricey, your ship has come in. Actually, two ships have come in: a Lancer GTS ($17,990) with a larger engine for 2009, and a turbocharged 2009 Lancer Ralliart (under $27,000, estimated ) to bridge the gap between the more pedestrian Lancer and the fire-breathing Evo. Mitsubishi characterizes the Ralliart as more of a tuned-up Lancer than a detuned Evolution.
-----------------------------------------
anupacraig


wiki posting (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/wiki%20posting)

[Bullet]

Back on topic,
F1 was never better than when Michelin and Bridgestone battled on track. They had completely different characteristics, and every race and quali for that matter was exciting. Unfortunately the development costs and safety issue (USGP) create a problem. The option tire was/is an attempt, by both CC and F1 to bring the excitment of multiple tire mfg's into the racing without the other issues. It's not perfect but it's better than nothing. (push to pass is a similar attempt at having multiple engine mfg's, different hp/torque characteristics etc.)
Standing starts, for me are one of the most exciting, suspensful moments in motorsport. The buildup during the parade lap and anticipation as all that horsepower lines up on the grid... They are no gimmick. It's has good as racing gets IMO.
A longtime fan of CART/CC and I've never liked the rolling starts on streets/roads. They're competely ridiculous, uncontrolled and quite often a gong show.

[nigelred5]

How can a powerboat use a flying start :s hock:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCHCy1IFmY

Actually pretty much the only powerboats that DON'T use flying starts are F1 tunnelhulls and Drag boats. ALL inboard hydros use a flying start, off shore powerboats use a flying start. It takes most hydro's and offshore powerboats so long to get on plane it's mind numbing. In the states, even most outboard powered tunnel boats use a flying start. Only the F1, Champboats and SST 140's in some areas use a dock start i nthe states and drag boats start from a static line. That said, I love tunnelboats. I've got a little 12ft former c-sport hydro with a 40 tohatsu that I play in on the river.


Standing starts are the only fair way to start at most streetcourses IMO, ESPECIALLY Long Beach with the rediculously tight hairpin leading onto shoreline. Leave the rolling starts to the ovals.