Just viewed the race....

[jimispeed]

Boring IMO...

Need new cars, turbos, push to pass, two tire compounds rules, etc.....

I don't know, I remember Michigan from long ago. I know it's apples to oranges, and the tracks are different animals, but so far the ovals for me have been boring, aside from Indy and Nashville.

Sorry...........I'll hang in........I know changes will bring more excitement.

[all13d]

I'm with you on the new cars and turbos, but we don't need push to pass.

Two tire compounds is fine, as long as teams can use as many of each as they like during the race, with no restrictions on having to use both.

[-Helix-]

Besides the ending I thought it was one of the best races of the season.

If only Marco or Meira would've won. :(

[underpowered]

Boring IMO...

What part bored you?

The multiple leads changes?
The cars running two wide?
or the thrilling final turn race to the finish?

I'm picking you will never be happy.

[jimispeed]

What part bored you?

The multiple leads changes?
The cars running two wide?
or the thrilling final turn race to the finish?

I'm picking you will never be happy.


I never watched the IRL on ovals other than Indy when CART entered them.

I don't know what it is! Could be the the difference in what I saw in CART vs. IRL cars. Could be short ovals. (I'm not absolutely in love with ovals......although some superspeedways are exciting)

For me it was just boring.

[Chamoo]

I feel like multiple chassis' will provide more ability for passing on ovals, as different chassis/engine combinations will, for example, offer disadvantages in the corner, but advantages on the straights, versus another chassis/engine combination that will do the opposite.

[speeddurango]

yes it's boring, 2 cars side by side? oh come on, it was never exciting seeing cars stuck together for laps and can't pass each other and even though so it was nothing compared to what it was a few years earlier, at least more cars were stuck together side by side. And the final turn was not thrilling it's one car running out of fuel, yes it's quite a surprsing ending, but thrilling?!

[NickFalzone]

If you didn't like Kentucky, then you just don't like oval racing. It could have used another lane for passing, but overall it was a very exciting race with strong competitors.

[underpowered]

yes it's boring, 2 cars side by side? oh come on, it was never exciting seeing cars stuck together for laps and can't pass each other and even though so it was nothing compared to what it was a few years earlier, at least more cars were stuck together side by side. And the final turn was not thrilling it's one car running out of fuel, yes it's quite a surprsing ending, but thrilling?!

I'm intereted..... what would you call and exciting race? what would have to happen?

Me, I like lead changes. I like fuel strategies (like Penske does). I like yellows that bunch up the pack (unless my driver is way out in front). I like racing that comes down to the team and not the chassis or engine they are lucky enough to have (like the Toyota vs Honda vs Chevy problems we had). Thats me.

your turn.....

[Phoenixent]

I have watched oval raving by USAC, CART and the IRL. The IRL races are similar to the USAC races and early CART races with only 3 maybe 4 cars fighting for the lead. The most exciting oval racing was by CART on the 2 mile ovals using the Hanford device. You had 10 cars fighting for the lead with the lead changing two or three times a lap.

[-Helix-]

The best races this season have been oval races...

Milwaukee was the best race so far IMO. Texas, Indy, Iowa, and Kentucky are up there too.

What good road races have there been? St. Pete? Even St. Pete wasn't that great, but it was better than any of the others. Long Beach and Mid-Ohio were snoozefests. Watkins Glen was okay, but not great. Edmonton had it's moments but was overall pretty boring.

And with horrible tracks like Belle Isle and Sonoma coming up the Road Racing season doesn't look to get any better..

[Miatanut]

I'm intereted..... what would you call and exciting race? what would have to happen?

Me, I like lead changes. I like fuel strategies (like Penske does). I like yellows that bunch up the pack (unless my driver is way out in front). I like racing that comes down to the team and not the chassis or engine they are lucky enough to have (like the Toyota vs Honda vs Chevy problems we had). Thats me.

your turn.....

I take it you're a major Miata Cup fan. I love Miata Cup too, but at the top level, technical diversity and technical advancement should be a major part of the sport. The kind of racing Chamoo described is the best, in my opinion. Particularly when you have a mixed schedule and one package is great on a road course and sucks on an oval, and another package is the inverse, and the championship goes down to the last race.

[Miatanut]

The best races this season have been oval races...

Milwaukee was the best race so far IMO. Texas, Indy, Iowa, and Kentucky are up there too.

What good road races have there been? St. Pete? Even St. Pete wasn't that great, but it was better than any of the others. Long Beach and Mid-Ohio were snoozefests. Watkins Glen was okay, but not great. Edmonton had it's moments but was overall pretty boring.

And with horrible tracks like Belle Isle and Sonoma coming up the Road Racing season doesn't look to get any better..

It's clear you like oval races. Partly it's because the current spec stinks for road racing. With a proper road racing spec, you have the back end stepping out any time a driver feels under pressure from the car behind. Like F1 now that traction control is gone. The current IRL spec has the power to grip ratio way out of whack.

[jimispeed]

I have watched oval raving by USAC, CART and the IRL. The IRL races are similar to the USAC races and early CART races with only 3 maybe 4 cars fighting for the lead. The most exciting oval racing was by CART on the 2 mile ovals using the Hanford device. You had 10 cars fighting for the lead with the lead changing two or three times a lap.


Thank You........Like Michigan........That was an oval race!!!

[call_me_andrew]

I was pleased with the race, but I think it could have been better. For example, Marco had no troubble catching up to Dixon, but that's all he could do. Marco could drive side-by-side with him lap after lap, but that's it. He couldn't pass him until a lapped car interviened. Then Marco just ran away with it until a caution came out. It's something of a stalemate.

It's all the bad things about restrictor plate racing (can't pass without help), with none of the good (can't drive in any line).

[ShiftingGears]

It's clear you like oval races. Partly it's because the current spec stinks for road racing. With a proper road racing spec, you have the back end stepping out any time a driver feels under pressure from the car behind.
...Or even without a car behind :p :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05vLC_zjPpY



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfLM5W4XcM


IndyCar has big shoes to fill when it comes to an exciting road course formula.

Although having said that, the DP01 couldn't pass on circuits like Road America and Assen.

[MAX_THRUST]

I only saw the IRL website highlights. looked good to me!!! Your so lucky you got to see the whole race.

Yes I miss CART and yes I miss turbo's and the Hanford wing, but with out doubt open wheel cars are far more exciting on ovals than stock cars. It was the ovals that first caught my attention of CART, that and Cleveland.

[underpowered]

I take it you're a major Miata Cup fan. I love Miata Cup too, but at the top level, technical diversity and technical advancement should be a major part of the sport. The kind of racing Chamoo described is the best, in my opinion. Particularly when you have a mixed schedule and one package is great on a road course and sucks on an oval, and another package is the inverse, and the championship goes down to the last race.

The funny thing for me is, I hated ovals 5 years ago. I remember walking around the house swearing when Ganassi left to go to IRL. I started watching the IRL and found myself having to understand the technical challenges and getting use to 12 laps of yellow. The more I watched the more I got interested. Then I started getting up on my feet at the end of the race and holding my breath for increadably close finishes. So now I enjoy ovals......but I still prefer road courses.

luckily Chip has Scott so I can still enjoy watching road and street races.

[bblocker68]

It was fairly interesting, but I think I've seen enough oval racing for the year. I think the fact that it's the same 3 guys up front is boring me more than the racing itself. I'm looking forward to next year when the teams MIGHT be closer in terms of speed on the ovals. NHL needs new cars. Those things keep breaking.

Turbo's might be nice, but stupid gimmicks like Power 2 Pass and multiple tire compounds can be left out. The difference between the blacks and the reds really didn't make for much passing.

I think an onboard starter would help out more than either of those 2 things.

[dataman1]

Face it! We are stuck with the formula we have for some time into the future. That will not change unless somebody has an epiphany along with a great influx of cash.

I agree with Pheonix about Michigan and the Handford wing. Now that was passing. This race however, not so much, same driver leads for 151 out of 200 laps with 10 lead changes between 5 drivers.

Races like we recently saw are won by factors such as pit box location, crew performance during pit stops, other drivers ability on cold tires, etc...in other words, mostly won in the pits. Factor number two is car setup. Go back and listen to the revs of various in car shots. Dixon was flat more than not. He had a car that could drive the shortest distance without lifting. Vitor did a very good job at keeping up but just plain had to drive further. Marco got by due to slower traffic in Dixon's way but he was lifting in the turns. So... bottom line, the same guy was out front for 75.5% of the race. The next closest lead for 19%. That makes for an uninteresting event IMO.

[jimispeed]

Although (http://Although) having said that, the DP01 couldn't pass on circuits like Road America and Assen.


Thanks for making me look this video up!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geng16f76SM

You should view all three of these.

Plenty of passing!! 2007 is when they finally got it right!

That is what was available for open wheel road racing fans!!

CART had the formula for the best oval racing!!

It is disappointing that Champcar forgot the ovals, very disappointing!!!!

The DP01, standing starts, turbos, push to pass, and the two tire compounds were perfect elements for road/street racing!

I'm watching, and dealing with what I see with Indycar, but I don't think I'll ever stop complaining until we see a much better product out there.

We all know how things could/should be, unless we never watched CART/Champcar.

Thanks for trying KK!! You had a great car/formula for road/street racing! Oh, and thank you, whoever you are for making those videos!!!

[-Helix-]

Face it! We are stuck with the formula we have for some time into the future. That will not change unless somebody has an epiphany along with a great influx of cash.

2010 isn't that far away.

The Dallara was developed for an oval racing series. I'm sure the new cars will be a bit more exciting on the road courses. And the rumors I've heard include turbos which can be turned up for road courses and turned down for the ovals.

[ShiftingGears]

Thanks for making me look this video up!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geng16f76SM

You should view all three of these.

Plenty of passing!! 2007 is when they finally got it right!

That is what was available for open wheel road racing fans!!

CART had the formula for the best oval racing!!

It is disappointing that Champcar forgot the ovals, very disappointing!!!!

The DP01, standing starts, turbos, push to pass, and the two tire compounds were perfect elements for road/street racing!

Well, I was wrong. But still, the only way they got to passing at Assen was thanks to the safety car bunching them up about 4 times, which is pretty lame IMO. Ignoring market demands (If there are any...err....) then I'd get Road America back on the calendar, because American Open wheel racing has history there. Assen and Mont Tremblant also, but I don't think we're ever going to see a return there. The only way Mont Tremblant would end up on the calendar is if it has American open wheel tradition, like Long Beach. It doesn't, despite hosting the first F1 Canadian grand prix.

You should try F1. Theres the Valencia street circuit coming up, and has a few excellent corners and passing opportunities.

[jimispeed]

But still, the only way they got to passing at Assen was thanks to the safety car bunching them up about 4 times, which is pretty lame IMO.


Not true at all!!!

Did you watch the videos?? Are you denying the performances??

The IRL have many changes to make if they intend to be an awesome open wheel series.....

I hope that Indycar isn't too narrow minded to pull it off.

They could learn everything from what CART/Champcar was!!

Champcar never could quite follow through on the PR and advertisement/sponsorship marketing it takes to make a series a household name. If they had, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

In America, Indycar is our last hope for open wheel racing, unless something better comes along.

It is my hope that the people who call the shots in Indycar take a very very long look at what CART/Champcar was, and emulate what was so great about the series and its fans.......

[ShiftingGears]

Not true at all!!!

Did you watch the videos??

Yes, and the Assen video didn't show the safety cars prior to showing the bunched up field.

[jimispeed]

There were only three yellows during the whole race. Only one car out of the race (PT).

Quite alot of positions changed in just three yellows. Plenty of passing in 2007 for the DP01 in Champcar.

http://champcarworldseries.com/Results/SessionResults.asp?ID=1779

[ShiftingGears]

My apologies.

[garyshell]

The IRL have many changes to make if they intend to be an awesome open wheel series.....

I hope that Indycar isn't too narrow minded to pull it off.

They could learn everything from what CART/Champcar was!!

And from the mistakes they made as well, no?


Champcar never could quite follow through on the PR and advertisement/sponsorship marketing it takes to make a series a household name. If they had, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

In America, Indycar is our last hope for open wheel racing, unless something better comes along.

It is my hope that the people who call the shots in Indycar take a very very long look at what CART/Champcar was, and emulate what was so great about the series and its fans.......

And ignore the bone headed decisions they made along the way as well. You seem to imply that everything was all rosy in CART and ChampCar. You know very well, that was NOT the case.

I do agree there are things that the ICS ought to emulate, and I think they have done SOME of them, not all mind you.

Gary

[bblocker68]

Yeah, I wouldn't bunch CART and Champcar together, they were 2 totally different series. unfortunately. If you do call them CART/Champcar, please do it from the end of Andrew Craig's tenure until now, which was when? 1999? Our beloved racing series really took a turn for the worse and went downhill from that point on. Rahal, Pook and the Amigo's never had a fighting chance, but I applaud them for trying their hardest to keep things afloat. I wonder what Joe Heitzler is doing right about now. Probably still hiding from us :)

The people that remember the "glory days" mostly want to forget the carnage that took place after the year 2000.

I'm really hoping things will be moving towards the positive, but I wont be conviced until we at least get a new car/engine package. If they make the car competitive, we wont need cheesy gimmicks like P2P to make the racing exciting.

[jimispeed]

bblocker68, and gary, I agree with both of you.

But, CART fell apart internally while the racing and formula was great.

Champcar fell apart internally, while by 2007 the racing and formula was probably the best for open wheel road/street courses to date!!



Indycar is our last hope for open wheel racing, unless something better comes along.

Indycar need to take a very very long look at what CART/Champcar was, and emulate what was so great about the series and its fans.......

That is, if they're able to accept what was great, and use it!!

If you guys just accept the way things are, then only a few things change!

You've been through enough B. S., and deserve to see as good, or better than what we've already seen!!

[Chris R]

I have watched oval raving by USAC, CART and the IRL. The IRL races are similar to the USAC races and early CART races with only 3 maybe 4 cars fighting for the lead. The most exciting oval racing was by CART on the 2 mile ovals using the Hanford device. You had 10 cars fighting for the lead with the lead changing two or three times a lap.

AMEN

[garyshell]

bblocker68, and gary, I agree with both of you.

But, CART fell apart internally while the racing and formula was great.

Champcar fell apart internally, while by 2007 the racing and formula was probably the best for open wheel road/street courses to date!!

Absolute bullocks! Champcar, as much as I truly loved watching it was in no way the best openwheel road/street courses to date. Nope sorry, that just doesn't hold a drop of water. The best was when CART had the likes of Nigel, Bobby, Gil, Mikey etc.



Indycar is our last hope for open wheel racing, unless something better comes along.

Indycar need to take a very very long look at what CART/Champcar was, and emulate what was so great about the series and its fans.......

That is, if they're able to accept what was great, and use it!!

If you guys just accept the way things are, then only a few things change!

You've been through enough B. S., and deserve to see as good, or better than what we've already seen!!

Who said a word about accepting things the way they are? Even the ICS is not saying that. Yes I/we have been through enough BS, including the BS that in the period since the two series joined forces (remember the announcement was only in February) that some fans think that things should be magically transformed overnight. All I deserve to see is someone making an attempt to make it better. Hearing about the likelihood of a Subway or Coca-Cola having an INTEREST in a series sponsorship, says to me someone is trying to make it better. That's all I can ask for at this point. All ChampCar was doing last year was trying to survive. Making things better was always, sadly, on the back burner.

Gary

[nigelred5]

2010 isn't that far away.

The Dallara was developed for an oval racing series. I'm sure the new cars will be a bit more exciting on the road courses. And the rumors I've heard include turbos which can be turned up for road courses and turned down for the ovals.

No, it's an eternity for some of us.
It's not really the quality of the racing or even the number of 1.5 miler's which I'm not too fond of. CART even in it's heyday was not that much different. Some years races were jsut snoozefests one year and spectacular the next.
To me the Dallara is simply a very boring car to watch. It is so ungainly looking on road courses due to the limited HP and so dang nailed to the track on ovals with all of the downforce nothing exciting ever happens. I simply find it a boring car to watch, even with 25 of them. I find that what some people find sexy about it is exactly what I find the most unappealing visually. Just like guys and how they are attracted to different parts of a woman's anatomy. I like balance and I just have a hard time watching the Dallara, which is totally unbalalanced to me. That slammed nose and big bulky airbox just don't do it. My greatest fear is they will come up with another, even uglier single make spec. car for 2010 or 2011, when ever it ends up being.

[jimispeed]

Absolute bullocks! Champcar, as much as I truly loved watching it was in no way the best openwheel road/street courses to date. Nope sorry, that just doesn't hold a drop of water. The best was when CART had the likes of Nigel, Bobby, Gil, Mikey etc.


Well, I guess I should rephrase that one! The split has put a huuuge damper on the Nigel's and the Mario's of the world!! It's gonna take alot of rebuilding before another one of those shows up in American open wheel IMO. Times have changed, they aren't even close to what they were back then!!




Who said a word about accepting things the way they are? Even the ICS is not saying that. Yes I/we have been through enough BS, including the BS that in the period since the two series joined forces (remember the announcement was only in February) that some fans think that things should be magically transformed overnight. All I deserve to see is someone making an attempt to make it better. Hearing about the likelihood of a Subway or Coca-Cola having an INTEREST in a series sponsorship, says to me someone is trying to make it better. That's all I can ask for at this point. All ChampCar was doing last year was trying to survive. Making things better was always, sadly, on the back burner.

Gary


It seems like every time someone wants to say how they truly feel about "what's going on", we are told by some to just give it up, and it's over.

Of course the split is over!! But the product is not a very good one!

And as far as Champcar just surviving in '07....

Those races were pretty damn good. And the "New" DP01, Turbos, P2P, and tire compounds made it even better!!

For these times, it was some great road/street racing.

Too bad Robert Doornbos couldn't have shown us just what his potential was!!

[-Helix-]

No, it's an eternity for some of us.
It's not really the quality of the racing or even the number of 1.5 miler's which I'm not too fond of. CART even in it's heyday was not that much different. Some years races were jsut snoozefests one year and spectacular the next.
To me the Dallara is simply a very boring car to watch. It is so ungainly looking on road courses due to the limited HP and so dang nailed to the track on ovals with all of the downforce nothing exciting ever happens. I simply find it a boring car to watch, even with 25 of them. I find that what some people find sexy about it is exactly what I find the most unappealing visually. Just like guys and how they are attracted to different parts of a woman's anatomy. I like balance and I just have a hard time watching the Dallara, which is totally unbalalanced to me. That slammed nose and big bulky airbox just don't do it. My greatest fear is they will come up with another, even uglier single make spec. car for 2010 or 2011, when ever it ends up being.

I understand, but looks just aren't all that important to me and I don't really have any big beefs with the Dallara. (Though I don't like the airbox or the bump in the nose either)

I'm expecting something completely different and innovative when 2010 rolls around. I think the IRL may want to cut ties with the past and try something out of the box. Or maybe some kind of "throwback" to the good old days. If it ends up being ugly, I'll probably be disappointed but I'll most likely learn to tolerate it. Looks just aren't that big of a deal to me. As long as it looks fast anyway. If it looks like a race car, then it's beautiful in my eyes.

I can still enjoy an F1 race from time to time even though I think the cars just get uglier and uglier every year. (Though the new regulations for next year sound promising).

I'm hoping for a better performing car. Good looks would be a plus obviously, but that's secondary for me. I'm worried more about the racing then what the cars look like standing still.

[IWUTitan90]

Thank You........Like Michigan........That was an oval race!!!

I was at every Michigan race from 1990 to the very end and I have to tell you that, No, that wasn't a "race". It was exciting..............for about twenty laps. It then became a chess game at 230 mph. Drivers fell back to see how far they could move forward, passing three, four and sometimes five cars per lap. It was a great show. It was about positioning yourself for the last lap, where being in the lead was the absolute WORST place you could be. It was wild, the crowd was thrilled, but it was not a "race". It slays me that some posters say that same engine, same chassis, flat to the floor oval racing is "boring" yet then say the Hansford device races were some of the most exciting races ever. All the HD was was an OW restrictor plate. Having been to over 70 USAC, CART and IRL oval races the HD races at Michigan, IMO were some of the worst "racing" ever.

[danny123]

at my school at infineon the indycar guys are testing and they sound like nothing special, it really sounds just like a star mazda, maybe just a little louder, you should have a car that people will remember from the experience, just like going to see a top fuel car passing by for the first time, and as for the looks surprisingly they dont look that bad as they do on TV. I was defiently a IRL hater, but i am willing to accept it for what it is right now, and hoping in a couple of years they will get it back where OW once was.

[jimispeed]

I'd say it was pretty good racing for an oval!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5AoTROb0H0

Back when Franchitti, Kanaan, Castroneves etc... were still in CART.

[garyshell]

I'd say it was pretty good racing for an oval!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5AoTROb0H0

Back when Franchitti, Kanaan, Castroneves etc... were still in CART.

It looks exciting for sure, but does it REALLY look like good racing? I remember at the time just about every one was spewing hate at the hanaford device. Folks were saying it was not unlike the restrict or plates in NASCAR. It made for a very artificial race, where as was stated elsewhere in this thread, the last place you wanted to be on the last lap was in first place. It was a sure way to be second at the checkered flag. What is good about that?

The passes were definitely exciting, I'll give you that, but the racing was artificial at best.

Gary

[dataman1]

Gary,

As I recall, the Hanford Device was built to create drag and slow down the cars for driver and spectator safety. It accomplished that task well and along with it created a big sucking hole behind each car that created passing which I believe is what the average fan wants, like the "green, white, checker" Nascar has frequently. The fans stand for all 3 laps. What is bad about that?

Keep in mind that we who write here are not the average fan. Many of us live sleep and eat this sport and we know it was artificial BUT what is good for the sport? Should it entertain we few, the passionate ones OR should we go after more butts in the seats? Food for consideration.

[-Helix-]

Gary,

As I recall, the Hanford Device was built to create drag and slow down the cars for driver and spectator safety. It accomplished that task well and along with it created a big sucking hole behind each car that created passing which I believe is what the average fan wants, like the "green, white, checker" Nascar has frequently. The fans stand for all 3 laps. What is bad about that?

Keep in mind that we who write here are not the average fan. Many of us live sleep and eat this sport and we know it was artificial BUT what is good for the sport? Should it entertain we few, the passionate ones OR should we go after more butts in the seats? Food for consideration.

It could be exciting, but it makes everything up until the final lap completely pointless.

All the hanford device did was cause cars to move back and fourth through the field easier until the eventual final lap shootout.

I'd rather have Dixon lead the majority of the laps and win on fuel strategy than waste 2 hours watching a race that only has one lap that actually matters.

HD races were like basketball games. They just take turns leading until the final minute where the play actually matters. The rest of the game is pointless.

[dataman1]

Helix,

I understand your point BUT as said above, in other words, how do we gain more butts in the seats or more viewers on TV if we don't have some passing. The casual fan does not understand a fuel conservation plan. They understand passing. And if that passing happens on the last lap like the last race it gets people on their feet and hopefully to attend or watch another race. We that write here are not the target audience to improve attendance. We have been watching for years. The product has to lure in new people.


Jimispeed was providing an example about how to achieve passing. Is it the only way? NO. It is just a way that worked in the past.

[garyshell]

Gary,

As I recall, the Hanford Device was built to create drag and slow down the cars for driver and spectator safety. It accomplished that task well and along with it created a big sucking hole behind each car that created passing which I believe is what the average fan wants, like the "green, white, checker" Nascar has frequently. The fans stand for all 3 laps. What is bad about that?

Keep in mind that we who write here are not the average fan. Many of us live sleep and eat this sport and we know it was artificial BUT what is good for the sport? Should it entertain we few, the passionate ones OR should we go after more butts in the seats? Food for consideration.


Point taken and quite honestly this is what I was thinking when I agreed that it did make for some exciting passes. But I am still not sure if it is the RIGHT way to acomplish this. It seems to me, and I know I keep coming back to this, but reliance on front wing downforce coupled with rear wing turbulence has made passing so tough that it made the hanaford device look appealing.

Gary