Alonso reiterates over McLaren situation

[ioan]

The Spaniard also insisted he has no regrets about having left McLaren, and he claimed he prefers to achieve worse results at Renault.

"Yeah, yeah. I don't think I would have been second with McLaren," he said when asked if he preferred to be fourth with Renault than second with McLaren.

"I'm (saying that) based on the last few races of the past season, when I was finishing fourth and fifth.

"And that's not what I expected. This year I'm still finishing fourth and fifth but with a team who really want me to achieve that result."

He also said he was convinced he would not have had a chance to fight for the championship with the British squad.

"Yes, I'm convinced, yes," he said. "Because of the situation I lived towards the end of the season. I saw there was no way to get a good result, to get things on the right track.

"I didn't have the atmosphere that I like to be able to work. And I know it would have been difficult to fight (for the title)."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69692

And now Ron will quickly make a statement to deny this! :D

[Big Ben]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69692

And now Ron will quickly make a statement to deny this! :D

he did that a long time ago.

[52Paddy]

Doesn't seem unlike Kimi in Ferrari at the moment.

Or maybe I should say "Doesn't seem unlike Kimi in general." :s

[ioan]

Doesn't seem unlike Kimi in Ferrari at the moment.

Or maybe I should say "Doesn't seem unlike Kimi in general." :s

I thought that Kimi won the championship last season in a Ferrari! :\

[I am evil Homer]

Every time Alonso opens his mouth I go off him a little bit more. There's a time to air greivances and a time to just put up, shut up and get on with it. And this is coming from an Alonso fan.

For what it's worth I don't really believe there's true 'equality' at Mac but I also don't believe Alonso helped himself while at the team and his ego was piqued by having a rookie placing so much pressure on him.

[PolePosition_1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69692

And now Ron will quickly make a statement to deny this! :D

Ioan - I don't see what point your trying to make. Its public knowledge that Alonso and Ron Dennis fell out. And that the atmosphere made it hard for either of them to work contructively together.

Ron Dennis openly admits the relationship didn't work out and the atmosphere was not positive. He said that just this past weekend!

[leopard]

McLaren has responded that this year team has built positive atmosphere, this has prompted team to issue contract renewal the purpose which is to retain this combination next year as they believe to work out as good as this year.

[Anderton]

Every time Alonso opens his mouth I go off him a little bit more. There's a time to air greivances and a time to just put up, shut up and get on with it. And this is coming from an Alonso fan.

For what it's worth I don't really believe there's true 'equality' at Mac but I also don't believe Alonso helped himself while at the team and his ego was piqued by having a rookie placing so much pressure on him.
Couldn't really have put it better myself. What's past is past and he needs to just get on with it. Although unlike evil homer, i'm not an Alonso fan.

[PolePosition_1]

Couldn't really have put it better myself. What's past is past and he needs to just get on with it. Although unlike evil homer, i'm not an Alonso fan.

Hate this. People complain F1 drivers have no personality, and slag off drivers who show personality.

And you act as if to say Alonso held a press conference and said what he said above. thats not the fact at all, fact is the guy (just as other F1 drivers) is asked hundreds of questions a day.

He can't refuse to answer them all, he just answering a question, which the media then use to make a story.

Its just a shame people are so niave and unable to understand how it all works before making their opinions.

[ArrowsFA1]

He can't refuse to answer them all, he just answering a question, which the media then use to make a story.
It appears that, contractually at least, he should refuse to answer questions on this particular subject:

"...when the contract with Fernando was terminated there were pre-conditions which determined the behaviour of both parties post-termination. We have no intention of breaching that agreement. His opinion is his opinion - I'm not going to voice my opinion about anything that Fernando has done or said."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647

[MAX_THRUST]

Ron stated at the weekend on ITV f1 show that there was more to come in respect of the story from last year. When we will here it and how is another matter......

Is Ron going to retire and do the book thing, or is he just saving it for a rainy day? As for Alonso, he didn't really help himself last year, as for his team mate (a rookie), he did a better than expected job. Sometimes the balance of power shifts. Mika was deemed to have had priority over DC I think during there time, and Schumacher over Irvine, there's mothing new about team leaders and many teams thrive in that situation. It depends on the drivers ego's and how important they see them selves.

[PolePosition_1]

It appears that, contractually at least, he should refuse to answer questions on this particular subject:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647

Well founded. And I must say, its nice to see people posting reasonably, and even sourcing their basis for their opinion.

Though we don't know the inside out of this agreement, what Alonso says there doesn't state straightforward favouritism towards Lewis, simply talking about the poor atmosphere.

Which to be fair is no secret whatsoever. And he isn't actually laying into McLaren, he is merely explaining why he is happier at Renault than McLaren despite the competitive differences.

So I'd be hugely suprised if that breached his contract, though as I say we don't know exactly what is in the contract.

But presumably if he had broken the terms of it McLaren would get onto Alonso's case abuot it - which they haven't.

[ArrowsFA1]

Though we don't know the inside out of this agreement, what Alonso says there doesn't state straightforward favouritism towards Lewis, simply talking about the poor atmosphere.

Which to be fair is no secret whatsoever. And he isn't actually laying into McLaren, he is merely explaining why he is happier at Renault than McLaren despite the competitive differences.

So I'd be hugely suprised if that breached his contract, though as I say we don't know exactly what is in the contract.

But presumably if he had broken the terms of it McLaren would get onto Alonso's case abuot it - which they haven't.
Very true :up: It's all a fuss over nothing really :)

[Valve Bounce]

Well founded. And I must say, its nice to see people posting reasonably, and even sourcing their basis for their opinion.



Just in case you don't know, or may have forgotten, Arrows used to be one of the moderators here; THE moderator that I respected the most in this forum.



..................but I like pulling his leg just the same :p :

Hmmm....when Dennis says "The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You could go back through the entire history of McLaren, you could talk to any driver that has driven for McLaren and you will not find anyone - save for one - who will not verify that this team always runs on the basis of equality and always will."

What about this....

"The Bogotá native – who has notched up eight top-ten finishes from 56 NASCAR Sprint Cup starts – also added that he understood the reasons that had compelled former double F1 World Champion Fernando Alonso to cut short his three-year contract with McLaren at the end of last season.

“He saw that the future of the team was Lewis Hamilton,” Montoya underlined, “not Fernando Alonso.”

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/166980-1/montoya_mclaren_take_f1_too_seriously.html

So that's not just 'one' former Mclaren driver who has his doubts about equality.

And then there is this....

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1n ... Lauda.html (http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/3389-Lewis+could+'destroy'+Alonso+-+Lauda.html)

"Lauda also confirmed that McLaren officials in the mid-80s similarly operated a policy of driver equality, but said he soon began to notice Prost getting the best treatment when he was quicker"


Which reminds me of George Orwell's 'Animal Farm'.....

"All Pigs are Equal, but some are more equal than others"

[ArrowsFA1]

Alonso - "I'm (saying that) based on the last few races of the past season, when I was finishing fourth and fifth."

Errrrrr...didn't Alonso just have 1 fourth placed finish (Hungary - 11th race of the season) and 1 fifth placed finish (Bahrain - 3rd race) while he was with McLaren :dozey: The "last few races" of 2007 saw him on the podium each time, with the exception of Japan.

[MAX_THRUST]

Good point Arrows.

I didn't want to say it becasue I couldn't be bothered to look for a link or starain my memory to much.

[MAX_THRUST]

Most teams have a preference on drivers. AS Renault does now. Alonso then PK, as before at Renault Alonso, then Fisi. Ferrari have always done it and as far as I am concerned Rons always done it with his drivers. But what team would openly say this guy is not as good as that guy. Its not that, they just know one is more consistant.

[Valve Bounce]

Alonso - "I'm (saying that) based on the last few races of the past season, when I was finishing fourth and fifth."

Errrrrr...didn't Alonso just have 1 fourth placed finish (Hungary - 11th race of the season) and 1 fifth placed finish (Bahrain - 3rd race) while he was with McLaren :dozey: The "last few races" of 2007 saw him on the podium each time, with the exception of Japan.

You forget that Fernando was counting in Spanish, while the bulls were rushing past. :p :

[52Paddy]

I thought that Kimi won the championship last season in a Ferrari! :\

What I meant was, the general unsatisfied feeling surrounding Alonso about McLaren is similar to how Kimi feels currently at Ferrari. I'm not saying that equality is a problem there too. I don't think Massa has an edge over Kimi in that team, but I just thought I could draw a (thin) parallel.

Anyway, its not important to this discussion, sorry :)

[PolePosition_1]

Hmmm....when Dennis says "The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You could go back through the entire history of McLaren, you could talk to any driver that has driven for McLaren and you will not find anyone - save for one - who will not verify that this team always runs on the basis of equality and always will."

What about this....

"The Bogotá native – who has notched up eight top-ten finishes from 56 NASCAR Sprint Cup starts – also added that he understood the reasons that had compelled former double F1 World Champion Fernando Alonso to cut short his three-year contract with McLaren at the end of last season.

“He saw that the future of the team was Lewis Hamilton,” Montoya underlined, “not Fernando Alonso.”

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/166980-1/montoya_mclaren_take_f1_too_seriously.html

So that's not just 'one' former Mclaren driver who has his doubts about equality.


Erm.....Montoya didn't say McLaren don't provide their drivers with equal opportunity.

Since watching F1, I've been a Damon Hill fan, Montoya fan and now Alonso fan.

So I'd liike to think I'm pretty fair when it comes to evaluating this, and I aint seen any proof of McLaren not giving equal cars to their drivers.

The team may have closer bonds with one driver over another (which is presumably what JPM was saying), but they still give each driver an equal shot of winning the title.

[ioan]

So I'd liike to think I'm pretty fair when it comes to evaluating this, and I aint seen any proof of McLaren not giving equal cars to their drivers.

What about equal testing mileage?! Or equal fuel strategy during a week end, and equal technical teams and so on?!

BTW, Montoya did say that Alonso was in for a surprise, when he found out that Lewis will be the other McLaren driver.

Did it look like Montoya and McLaren parted ways in a peaceful manner?!

[PolePosition_1]

What about equal testing mileage?! Or equal fuel strategy during a week end, and equal technical teams and so on?!

BTW, Montoya did say that Alonso was in for a surprise, when he found out that Lewis will be the other McLaren driver.

Did it look like Montoya and McLaren parted ways in a peaceful manner?!


I don't know about equal testing mileage, presumably its pretty fair in what they do, if you got information suggesting otherwise please let me knwo.

Strategy has been made its clear, last year especially they tended to take it in turns to have the longer first stint.

Technical teams, each have their own - and each side of the camp have equal resources. Thats how it normally works. Again, if you have information suggesting otherwise please let us know.

And no, Montoya and McLaren didn't part well, not sure how long you been watching F1 for, but Montoya left midway after he took Kimi out of the USA GP.

But this was more due to Montoya being unhappy at McLaren, presumably not enjoying the atmosphere at the team.

[ShiftingGears]

Montoya didn't say he didn't have an equal opportunity.

The fact is, team equality or not, Montoya's knack of constantly throwing points away at critical times was a great way to get his team offside.

[ioan]

Montoya didn't say he didn't have an equal opportunity.

The fact is, team equality or not, Montoya's knack of constantly throwing points away at critical times was a great way to get his team offside.

Canada 2005, he is the leading McLaren, SC comes out, they call Kimi in first and thus destroy JPM's chances.

So he had an equal opportunity, maybe in Ronspeak!!! :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Montoya didn't say he didn't have an equal opportunity.
Exactly, and his view of the Hamilton/Alonso situation from 1,000's of miles away is hardly earth shattering.

[PolePosition_1]

Canada 2005, he is the leading McLaren, SC comes out, they call Kimi in first and thus destroy JPM's chances.

So he had an equal opportunity, maybe in Ronspeak!!! :laugh:


Yeah I remember that incident, I thought it was because JPM didn't get the message till it was too late because of the timing of safety car....my memory may be wrong though - can anyone source this?

I've had a look I can't find anything.

[ioan]

Yeah I remember that incident, I thought it was because JPM didn't get the message till it was too late because of the timing of safety car....my memory may be wrong though - can anyone source this?

I've had a look I can't find anything.

That was one of the McLaren explanations, unfortunately for them, RD, NH and MW all gave different explanations about the incident. Which points to them having all lied in an attempt to cover the trick.

As for sources, try Google.

[Valve Bounce]

That was one of the McLaren explanations, unfortunately for them, RD, NH and MW all gave different explanations about the incident. Which points to them having all lied in an attempt to cover the trick.

As for sources, try Google.

Well, maybe they didn't lie - maybe they were just confused.

[Knock-on]

That was one of the McLaren explanations, unfortunately for them, RD, NH and MW all gave different explanations about the incident. Which points to them having all lied in an attempt to cover the trick.

As for sources, try Google.

Link please

Link please

http://www.google.co.uk/

[Bagwan]

The fact that Fernando , Juan Pablo , and David all seem to have the idea that they were not "favoured" in the team rather contradicts Ron's assertion that only one driver might have that opinion .

All three will be interviewed pretty much every time Ron says something like this , I expect .

But this shouldn't be confused with Ronspeak .
This is denial .

[PolePosition_1]

That was one of the McLaren explanations, unfortunately for them, RD, NH and MW all gave different explanations about the incident. Which points to them having all lied in an attempt to cover the trick.

As for sources, try Google.


Tried google, couldn't find anything.

They're quite some claims, and without a source, I don't take them seriously.

You may as well link a Finnish website with no quotes and which no one can understand to back up your theory...........oh yeah you done that already.

[PolePosition_1]

The fact that Fernando , Juan Pablo , and David all seem to have the idea that they were not "favoured" in the team rather contradicts Ron's assertion that only one driver might have that opinion .

All three will be interviewed pretty much every time Ron says something like this , I expect .

But this shouldn't be confused with Ronspeak .
This is denial .


Try finding me a link where Ron Dennis denies having closer bond to one driver over another?

He has never denied that. He merely states both drivers are given equal equipment, and an equal shot at winning. Which appears to be the case.

[Bagwan]

[quote="tamburello"]"The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You could go back through the entire history of McLaren, you could talk to any driver that has driven for McLaren and you will not find anyone - save for one - who will not verify that this team always runs on the basis of equality and always will."[quote]

"Equality" meaning one can be more equal than the other .

[ioan]

Well, maybe they didn't lie - maybe they were just confused.

Yeah, when things doesn't go their way, they look like a very "confused" bunch.

[ioan]

Tried google, couldn't find anything.

They're quite some claims, and without a source, I don't take them seriously.

You may as well link a Finnish website with no quotes and which no one can understand to back up your theory...........oh yeah you done that already.

I'll try to look them up as soon as I have some time available.
You could also try to improve your searching capabilities, as I do not keep a file with links to all the nonsense the McLaren team spouted over the years, it's more than enough to hear or read them once.

[Dave B]

I'm going to adopt this stance from now on: whenever I'm losing an arguement I'll make an claim which trumps the other person and cite "Google" or "Wikipedia" as my source.


I can't lose! :D

[ioan]

I'm going to adopt this stance from now on: whenever I'm losing an arguement I'll make an claim which trumps the other person and cite "Google" or "Wikipedia" as my source.


I can't lose! :D

You are already using the "I don't accept any link that isn't from English mass media".

Plus I said I'll try to find them articles as soon as I have enough time for that. :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

You are already using the "I don't accept any link that isn't from English mass media".

While you're at it, would you be kind enough to link to the quote you've erroneously attributed to me? There's a good chap.

[ioan]

While you're at it, would you be kind enough to link to the quote you've erroneously attributed to me? There's a good chap.

:?:

[BDunnell]

You are already using the "I don't accept any link that isn't from English mass media".

Plus I said I'll try to find them articles as soon as I have enough time for that. :rolleyes:

Sorry to interrupt your detailed research, but where did Dave say, or even suggest, that he 'doesn't accept any link that isn't from the English mass media'?

[ioan]

Sorry to interrupt your detailed research, but where did Dave say, or even suggest, that he 'doesn't accept any link that isn't from the English mass media'?

You obviously missed the lengthy thread about the legality of the move where Heikki let Hamilton through.

Many member, including Brockman refused to accept evidence from the Finnish members because it was not from an English source. Something that proves ignorance and arrogance that I was not expecting to see in the civilized world.

So, there you go, you got the explanation.

[BDunnell]

You obviously missed the lengthy thread about the legality of the move where Heikki let Hamilton through.

Many member, including Brockman refused to accept evidence from the Finnish members because it was not from an English source. Something that proves ignorance and arrogance that I was not expecting to see in the civilized world.

So, there you go, you got the explanation.

I didn't miss it. I deliberately avoided it because I knew it would probably end up full of crap, and I'm sure I was right.

By the way, it is considered polite not to refer to someone just by their surname. One comes across as a bit rude otherwise. Or, at least, the English etiquette books say so. I haven't looked in the Finnish ones.

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't miss it. I deliberately avoided it because I knew it would probably end up full of crap, and I'm sure I was right.

By the way, it is considered polite not to refer to someone just by their surname. One comes across as a bit rude otherwise. Or, at least, the English etiquette books say so. I haven't looked in the Finnish ones.

Listen here Dunnell, don't you come ...................


Oh! Oh! I think I can hear another warning coming already :(

[PolePosition_1]

I'll try to look them up as soon as I have some time available.
You could also try to improve your searching capabilities, as I do not keep a file with links to all the nonsense the McLaren team spouted over the years, it's more than enough to hear or read them once.

Well, give me advice on how to improve my searching capabilities.

I've looked through numerous search engines and read through several articles about the grand prix with no mention of what you state. I've searched the news archive as well.

All due respect, I be very suprised if you can find something if I can't.

[PolePosition_1]

You obviously missed the lengthy thread about the legality of the move where Heikki let Hamilton through.

Many member, including Brockman refused to accept evidence from the Finnish members because it was not from an English source. Something that proves ignorance and arrogance that I was not expecting to see in the civilized world.

So, there you go, you got the explanation.

I think fact that the website had no quote. It was purely an interpretation of how Heikki was feeling.

And that two Finnish people translated it totally different.

I think that was primary reason people didn't take it seriously.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, give me advice on how to improve my searching capabilities.

I've looked through numerous search engines and read through several articles about the grand prix with no mention of what you state. I've searched the news archive as well.

All due respect, I be very suprised if you can find something if I can't.

Well, for a start, you have to wear Red tinted glasses, with SchM engraved onto the sides, then put on a Ferrari jacket, then go outside a fly a Ferrari flag from your roof; yeah!! that would be a good start. Then sit cross legged, close your eyes, and repeat : OHM!! what ioan says is Gospel!! OHM!! what ioan says is gospel.

[Knock-on]

You obviously missed the lengthy thread about the legality of the move where Heikki let Hamilton through.

Many member, including Brockman refused to accept evidence from the Finnish members because it was not from an English source. Something that proves ignorance and arrogance that I was not expecting to see in the civilized world.

So, there you go, you got the explanation.

Wow, I must have missed that as well.

I remember the thread but cannot remember any evidence not being accepted because it comes from a Finnish source.

I do remember some quotes from Heikki that contradicted what you were claiming and an article where the author expressed an opinion as to why Heikki was annoyed.

Can you provide a link to back up your claim.

No?

Thought not :D

Why not just give up with all the silly, unsubstantiated claims?

[Mark]

Why not just give up with all the silly, unsubstantiated claims?

Noo. I'd have to close the forum due to nobody posting :p

[Shalafi]

And that two Finnish people translated it totally different.



We translated different parts of the text. Both translations were true.

[Valve Bounce]

We translated different parts of the text. Both translations were true.

You've been watching Fiddler on the Roof, havn't you. :up:

[Shalafi]

Wow, I must have missed that as well.

I remember the thread but cannot remember any evidence not being accepted because it comes from a Finnish source.

I do remember some quotes from Heikki that contradicted what you were claiming and an article where the author expressed an opinion as to why Heikki was annoyed.

Can you provide a link to back up your claim.

No?

Thought not :D

Why not just give up with all the silly, unsubstantiated claims?

Well, you can pick up a phone and call JJ Lehto who was there when Heikki said that he were not allowed to race against Lewis... of course, JJ Lehto is not a reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJ_Lehto

He is, afterall, only a Finnish...so he must be a liar.

[ioan]

Well, you can pick up a phone and call JJ Lehto who was there when Heikki said that he were not allowed to race against Lewis... of course, JJ Lehto is not a reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJ_Lehto

He is, afterall, only a Finnish...so he must be a liar.

Don't lose your time.
The level of arrogance and hypocrisy, displayed by some of the Brits and other English speaking McLaren fans in the other thread, is staggering.

[PolePosition_1]

Well, you can pick up a phone and call JJ Lehto who was there when Heikki said that he were not allowed to race against Lewis... of course, JJ Lehto is not a reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJ_Lehto

He is, afterall, only a Finnish...so he must be a liar.

Thats a pretty ignorant view to take. Why would he be a liar just because he is Finnish?

Post the source again then where Lehto says that.

[PolePosition_1]

Don't lose your time.
The level of arrogance and hypocrisy, displayed by some of the Brits and other English speaking McLaren fans in the other thread, is staggering.

Lucky I'm not British and an English speaking McLaren fan otherwise I would take offence to that sweeping generalisation.

[Knock-on]

Well, you can pick up a phone and call JJ Lehto who was there when Heikki said that he were not allowed to race against Lewis... of course, JJ Lehto is not a reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJ_Lehto

He is, afterall, only a Finnish...so he must be a liar.

Shalafi

I'm sorry mate but again it's heresay.

If JJ writes a piece where he quotes Heikki saying that he's not allowed to race against Lewis then I would accept it.

If you can provide me with JJ's phone number I'm more than happy to phone him up and accept his statement that Heikki said these things.

The facts are that Heikki was slower than Lewis in the race so it would be difficult to race against him.

I have no doubt that Ron's message that Lewis was coming up fast was a suggestion that Heikki might not want to fight too hard as it would slow them both down but there was no team order for Heikki to move over and I have not seen a quote from Heikki, even in the translations, where he stated there was a team order.

We also have the fact that Lewis was stuck behind Heikki longer than for the 2 drivers in front of him.

Heikki has come out and said there was no team order and it was right to not hold up Lewis so we have a bit of a contradiction.

Either we accept that a driver allegedly said he was ordered to move over or we accept from his own mouth that he wasn't.

Is the word of mouth, Chinese whispers account true or was Heikki lying when he said the opposite?

Which is it?

And don't say that because it was in Finnish, it was a lie. Nobody ever said that apart from ioan's warped view of the situation.

I don't care what language it's written in as long as the source is reliable and referenceable. I'm not saying this source was unreliable but it seemed that there was opinion being quoted as fact against what Heikki meant rather than said.

[ioan]

Lucky I'm not British and an English speaking McLaren fan otherwise I would take offence to that sweeping generalisation.

You're free to take offence, you were one of those in denial too.

[ioan]

The facts are that Heikki was slower than Lewis in the race so it would be difficult to race against him.

Tell that to Kimi, who spent 2/3rds of the last race behind Alonso, although he was clearly faster.

[SGWilko]

The fact that Fernando , Juan Pablo , and David all seem to have the idea that they were not "favoured" in the team rather contradicts Ron's assertion that only one driver might have that opinion .

All three will be interviewed pretty much every time Ron says something like this , I expect .

But this shouldn't be confused with Ronspeak .
This is denial .

As a driver, if you couldn't quite 'cut the mustard', wouldn't it be convenient if you could lay the blame for your weakness elsewhere.....?

[PolePosition_1]

Tell that to Kimi, who spent 2/3rds of the last race behind Alonso, although he was clearly faster.

But Kimi was stuck behind Alonso in Hungary, where there was only 1 overtaking move in whole race because its near impossible to overtake, Lewis was behind Heikki in Germany, where we had 30+ overtaking moves.

Surely you see the difference?

Your making comparisons which just make no sense at all.

I seriously starting to think you just do this because you get a kick off winding people up.

[PolePosition_1]

You're free to take offence, you were one of those in denial too.


Ok, if I posted a source in arabic, stating that Ferrari cheated, it had no quotes, just the guys opinion who saw SD - would you accept this as fact?

[Shalafi]

Shalafi

If JJ writes a piece where he quotes Heikki saying that he's not allowed to race against Lewis then I would accept it.

Heikki has come out and said there was no team order and it was right to not hold up Lewis so we have a bit of a contradiction.

Either we accept that a driver allegedly said he was ordered to move over or we accept from his own mouth that he wasn't.

Is the word of mouth, Chinese whispers account true or was Heikki lying when he said the opposite?

Which is it?


JJ and Oskari Saari (other commentator) said it after the race in tv. Everyone knows it was a team order...I just dont want to write same things over and over again... Heikkis "mixed" sayings are because immediately after the race he told the truth (team order), but after a couple of hours in Mclaren motorhome with RD and co he got another team order (dont tell the truth). This was my last writing of this subject. Everyone can think how they want about this matter. Billions of people believe in Jesus, so its no miracle that there are some people that believe whatever Ron Dennis says about equality in his team...

[Knock-on]

JJ and Oskari Saari (other commentator) said it after the race in tv. Everyone knows it was a team order...I just dont want to write same things over and over again... Heikkis "mixed" sayings are because immediately after the race he told the truth (team order), but after a couple of hours in Mclaren motorhome with RD and co he got another team order (dont tell the truth). This was my last writing of this subject. Everyone can think how they want about this matter. Billions of people believe in Jesus, so its no miracle that there are some people that believe whatever Ron Dennis says about equality in his team...

2 commentators said it so it must be true.

:rolleyes:

You can't seem to understand that if you have a quote from Heikki that says he was ordered to move over, then I will accept it. I don't care if it's in Finnish or Klingon but just show me where he said he was ordered to move over.

We all know, just as JJ and the other commentator do, that the team would not have been very happy with him if he ruined Lewis race and the opportunity for McLaren to gain additional points. We can speculate that Ron saying that Lewis is coming up fast could imply that he shouldn't hold him up.

Facts and opinion are different whatever language it's written in.

However, as you say, this has been done to death.

[PolePosition_1]

JJ and Oskari Saari (other commentator) said it after the race in tv. Everyone knows it was a team order...I just dont want to write same things over and over again... Heikkis "mixed" sayings are because immediately after the race he told the truth (team order), but after a couple of hours in Mclaren motorhome with RD and co he got another team order (dont tell the truth). This was my last writing of this subject. Everyone can think how they want about this matter. Billions of people believe in Jesus, so its no miracle that there are some people that believe whatever Ron Dennis says about equality in his team...

You reckon Heikki actually said he was told to move over and let Lewis past - or was he just made aware lewis was coming up fast, implying he should let lewis past?

If you could give a link we wouldn't go round in circles like this.

Well, presumably Ioan would still argue as he seemingly argues against facts judging by his blue flag theory in other topic, but for rest of us, if we had a source, we'd accept it.

[ArrowsFA1]

As a driver, if you couldn't quite 'cut the mustard', wouldn't it be convenient if you could lay the blame for your weakness elsewhere.....?
As Patrick Head once said of Riccardo Patrese: "He’s not a selfish man that’s the thing, which is quite rare in a racing driver. His ego’s under control too. Which is also quite rare…”

Ego doesn't generally allow highly competitive individuals to admit, for example, that a team-mate is faster. Absolute confidence in their own ability doesn't allow much room for showing a weakness of any sort.

IMHO that's where the roots of Alonso's problems at McLaren rest, but I'm sure opinions differ.

As Patrick Head once said of Riccardo Patrese: "He’s not a selfish man that’s the thing, which is quite rare in a racing driver. His ego’s under control too. Which is also quite rare…”

Ego doesn't generally allow highly competitive individuals to admit, for example, that a team-mate is faster. Absolute confidence in their own ability doesn't allow much room for showing a weakness of any sort.

IMHO that's where the roots of Alonso's problems at McLaren rest, but I'm sure opinions differ.

Ego = Self Belief in F1.

I don't think it is a bad thing for a racing driver, especially one who has a double WDC under his belt, to have a massive ego.

Ego = Self Belief in this game, and with the possible exception of Damon Hill, I'm not sure I can think of a champion who didn't have oodles of the stuff.

Without wishing to be disrespectful to your man Patrese (and it undoubtedly makes him a better person for not having a massive ego) but isn't that just the reason why he never looked like being a World Champion?

[ArrowsFA1]

Without wishing to be disrespectful to your man Patrese (and it undoubtedly makes him a better person for not having a massive ego) but isn't that just the reason why he never looked like being a World Champion?
Possibly, although 1991 could have been 'his year' but...That and his own admission that, unlike the champions he raced against and sometimes beat, he did not produce the consistently high levels of performance they did.

[Knock-on]

Good point Tamb and response Arrows.

You need that single minded detirmination to get there and Damon is the only driver that breaks the mould.

[ArrowsFA1]

Thinking about it, had Alonso been a little more Mansell-eque (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/motorsport.htm) in 2007 he may well have got his 3rd WDC, established himself at McLaren over Hamilton, and be well on his way towards his 4th title today :crazy:

Thinking about it, had Alonso been a little more Mansell-eque (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/motorsport.htm) in 2007 he may well have got his 3rd WDC, established himself at McLaren over Hamilton, and be well on his way towards his 4th title today :crazy:

Good article and very revealing, although if I were to defend Alonso, I would have to say that Patrese was an easier man to demotivate/trick than it would appear that Hamilton is.....and Wiliams were not a team to take a driver to their collective nipple in the way that Mclaren seem so keen on lactating for lewis.

Painful though it is for a Tifosi like myself (and an admirer of Alonso) but it is obvious that Hamilton is one of the greats of Formula One. His self-belief appears to be unshakeable.....at the moment, at least.

That said, it will be very interesting to see how he handles it when, a few years down the line, he comes up against a new, just as strong, just as fast, younger version of himself.

Lauda & Prost, Prost & Senna, Senna & Schumi....everytime the elder statesman is the one who looks weakest. It is, arguably, only Schumi who hit with the same punch against his younger challengers as he did with the legends he started against.

Hamilton may well be similar to Schumi in that respect.....I really don't know.

[ArrowsFA1]

Good article and very revealing, although if I were to defend Alonso, I would have to say that Patrese was an easier man to demotivate/trick than it would appear that Hamilton is...
Perhaps, although I'm not even sure it would be possible to pull the kind of tricks Mansell did now, particularly regarding set-up, given the way data is recorded and its' availability within the team (something that was illustrated in GP Masters ;) ), so the comparison with Alonso's situation may have been stretching it a bit.

I do think though that had Alonso approached his time at McLaren differently the results may well have been different. After all, he was able to impose himself over Fisichella at Renault, and his status as 2xWDC gave him a head start in that respect at McLaren. Instead, he appeared to adopt a seige mentality, or a Mansell "the world is against me" attitude :p , fairly early on. Perhaps that became a self-fulfilling prophecy the more time went on, or perhaps Hamilton's talent, drive and determination was more of a factor, who knows.

Perhaps we'll know more when both drivers have retired and they talk more freely about their careers.

I do think though that had Alonso approached his time at McLaren differently the results may well have been different. After all, he was able to impose himself over Fisichella at Renault, and his status as 2xWDC gave him a head start in that respect at McLaren.

With all due respect, Fisichella is not made of the same stuff as is Hamilton, and being a double World champion already ensconsed in the team didn't help Lauda or Prost, nor did being a triple champion in the case of Senna have any effect on Schumi, nor did being up against a 7 time WDC bother Alonso in his battle with Michael in 2006.

It would appear that those made of the "right stuff" makes it impossible, or very, very hard, to be affected by the mind games of a legend.....whereas the appearance of a young hot-shot does repeatedly seem to affect a legend.

[Knock-on]

With all due respect, Fisichella is not made of the same stuff as is Hamilton, and being a double World champion already ensconsed in the team didn't help Lauda or Prost, nor did being a triple champion in the case of Senna have any effect on Schumi, nor did being up against a 7 time WDC bother Alonso in his battle with Michael in 2006.

It would appear that those made of the "right stuff" makes it impossible, or very, very hard, to be affected by the mind games of a legend.....whereas the appearance of a young hot-shot does repeatedly seem to affect a legend.

Blimey Tamb, when you debate nicely instead of point scoreing, you come up with some superb posts :up:

I think you're spot on actually.

With the McLaren / Alonso situation, I do think that Alonso started out the year thinking Hammy would not be an issue. However, the pace of the lad plainly shocked and unsettled him.

He tried a few mind games but they were knee jerk and more in response than the Mansel strategy.

Eventually, he knew they had the same machinary and was rocked by the rookie.

True, McLaren were focused in the 2nd half of the season on Hammy because of all the but I don't think they provided either driver with anything apart from the very best equipment. It's just that Lewis had done the job better and won the respect.

[BDunnell]

With all due respect, Fisichella is not made of the same stuff as is Hamilton, and being a double World champion already ensconsed in the team didn't help Lauda or Prost, nor did being a triple champion in the case of Senna have any effect on Schumi, nor did being up against a 7 time WDC bother Alonso in his battle with Michael in 2006.

It would appear that those made of the "right stuff" makes it impossible, or very, very hard, to be affected by the mind games of a legend.....whereas the appearance of a young hot-shot does repeatedly seem to affect a legend.

Excellent post. :up:

Yes, there are plenty of examples of this in motorsport, aren't there. I reckon that several drivers in various formulae who may have been a bit past their absolute prime but still perfectly competitive have seen their careers come to a premature end as a result of being teamed up with a young hot-shot and then being the subject of unfavourable comparisons. It must be very demoralising to some.

[gloomyDAY]

With all due respect, Fisichella is not made of the same stuff as is Hamilton, and being a double World champion already ensconsed in the team didn't help Lauda or Prost, nor did being a triple champion in the case of Senna have any effect on Schumi, nor did being up against a 7 time WDC bother Alonso in his battle with Michael in 2006.

It would appear that those made of the "right stuff" makes it impossible, or very, very hard, to be affected by the mind games of a legend.....whereas the appearance of a young hot-shot does repeatedly seem to affect a legend.Reading that actually felt good. :s mokin:

[markabilly]

Don't lose your time.
The level of arrogance and hypocrisy, displayed by some of the Brits and other English speaking McLaren fans in the other thread, is staggering.


Sad I am because now I have become to think the same of certain maxie supporters :(

[Valve Bounce]

A series of excellent posts by Tamburello, where he has made some insightful points. I too am of the opinion that Hamilton is a very talented driver, and no matter how the British media hypes him up to the point where supporters of other drivers are sickened, that does not detract from the fact the guy is bloody good.

If I were to put money on any specific driver to win the WDC, I would not hesitate on backing Lewis. But my favourite driver now is still Kimi.

[harsha]

on Hamilton...just do the math if you wanna get the indication of where will he be after 6-7 years of racing...

Schumacher-250 races-91 wins
Hamilton-28 races -8 wins

even if you discount the 91-92-93 seasons and the 97 seasons...you can see why there is so much hype around Hamilton and the fact that his best is yet to come,he's still in his second season in f1...

like it or not
10-15 years down the line,people are gonna mention him in the same vein as Schumacher,Senna

[ArrowsFA1]

It would appear that those made of the "right stuff" makes it impossible, or very, very hard, to be affected by the mind games of a legend.....whereas the appearance of a young hot-shot does repeatedly seem to affect a legend.
I agree :up: The very best drivers have such confidence in their own ability that they remain unaffacted by most other drivers. The only time they begin to question themselves is when the next big thing arrives on the scene. No longer can they explain away being outqualified or outraced (which happens once in a blue moon!); they have to recognise an equal. They may not do so publicly (a sign of weakness) but they know.

That's what makes the 'line of succession' in F1 fascinating. In recent times we've been fortunate to see Prost -> Senna -> Schumacher -> Alonso -> Hamilton. I certainly hope we see the last two of those stick around for some time to come yet, and be competing against each other at the front of the field :)

It's a shame that won't be within the same team, but although Alonso is sometimes compared to Mansell, it seems his ability to play mind games was not up to Mansell's standards :p That's to his credit IMHO.

I'd also like to add that, although I have argued that as the elder driver (if you can be that aged 27!) Alonso came up against a young hot-shot and like all previous elder-statesman struggled, I still fundamentally believe that the Mclaren-Lewis love-in played a huge part in that.

Whilst I acknowledge that Hamilton is obviously a mega-talent, I do believe that if he had began his F1 career at Renault in 2006 (but assuming that Lewis was the 2007 spec Lewis) then Fernando would have hammered him.

I know that such a scenario is totally hypothetical, but the fact that Ron Dennis has groomed Hamilton from when he still had his baby teeth meant that Fernando didn't have the in-team affection from the moment he arrived at Woking.

In that respect, it was a different scenario to the Lauda-Prost, Prost-Senna ones. Unlike Lauda & then Prost, Mclaren did not initially either know or have any affection for Fernando.

In that respect, Lewis had it a lot easier.

[SGWilko]

I'd also like to add that, although I have argued that as the elder driver (if you can be that aged 27!) Alonso came up against a young hot-shot and like all previous elder-statesman struggled, I still fundamentally believe that the Mclaren-Lewis love-in played a huge part in that.

Whilst I acknowledge that Hamilton is obviously a mega-talent, I do believe that if he had began his F1 career at Renault in 2006 (but assuming that Lewis was the 2007 spec Lewis) then Fernando would have hammered him.

I know that such a scenario is totally hypothetical, but the fact that Ron Dennis has groomed Hamilton from when he still had his baby teeth meant that Fernando didn't have the in-team affection from the moment he arrived at Woking.

In that respect, it was a different scenario to the Lauda-Prost, Prost-Senna ones. Unlike Lauda & then Prost, Mclaren did not initially either know or have any affection for Fernando.

In that respect, Lewis had it a lot easier.

A point well made. However......

....despite the love the Renault guys and Flav had for Fred in '05 and '06, he still bad mouthed then when things didn't go his way, and he signed a contract to leave a year in advance.......

I don't think Fred knows or cares much for loyalty.

[markabilly]

I don't think Fred knows or cares much for loyalty.


So? As with too many F1 folks such as bernie, max and all the rest, they all sing, "give me money, money, that what I love" who wrote that Pual or john

[SGWilko]

So? As with too many F1 folks such as bernie, max and all the rest, they all sing, "give me money, money, that what I love"

Think you're getting muddled up here Billy boy, that was ABBA wot sung that little tune fella. :laugh:

[markabilly]

Think you're getting muddled up here Billy boy, that was ABBA wot sung that little tune fella. :laugh:
Soory you kno how it be :beer:

I wuz thinking of this:

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

You're lovin' gives me a thrill
But you're lovin' don't pay my bills
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want, wah

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Well now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, I wanna be free
Oh I want money
That's what I want
That's what I want, well
Now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, you need money
now, give me money
That's what I want, yeah
that's what I want http://www.lyricsdepot.com/images/t/7638.gif

Of course Alsono beleives Alsono's sad song should be:
You never give me your money
You only give me your funny paper
And in the middle of negotiations
You break down

I never give you my number
I only give you my situation
And in the middle of investigation
I break down

Out of college, money spent
See no future, pay no rent
All the money's gone, nowhere to go

[SGWilko]

Soory you kno how it be :beer:

I wuz thinking of this:

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

You're lovin' gives me a thrill
But you're lovin' don't pay my bills
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want, wah

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Well now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, I wanna be free
Oh I want money
That's what I want
That's what I want, well
Now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, you need money
now, give me money
That's what I want, yeah
that's what I want http://www.lyricsdepot.com/images/t/7638.gif

Dang it, foiled again. Good song that.

Also Pink Floyd, Don Henley have recorded suitable wonga related tracks......

:D

[markabilly]

Dang it, foiled again. Good song that.

Also Pink Floyd, Don Henley have recorded suitable wonga related tracks......

:D
Actually that song does say what I "want", not "love" dont know about abba

but the latter song fits Alson's situation a bit more...and in the middle of investigation, i break down......

[ArrowsFA1]

According to his column in F1 Racing magazine this month "McLaren sources" told Alan Henry that "Alonso was very nearly fired from the team and replaced by test driver Pedro de la Rosa after free practice at the Hungaroring last season".

This is not something I had heard before, and would have been quite extraordinary had it happened.

[ioan]

According to his column in F1 Racing magazine this month "McLaren sources" told Alan Henry that "Alonso was very nearly fired from the team and replaced by test driver Pedro de la Rosa after free practice at the Hungaroring last season".

This is not something I had heard before, and would have been quite extraordinary had it happened.

I guess Ronald wanted to do it but their contract didn't allow him to do it!
This also explains why the team sabotaged Alonso in the second part of the season.

[SGWilko]

I guess Ronald wanted to do it but their contract didn't allow him to do it!
This also explains why the team sabotaged Alonso in the second part of the season.

A contract of employment that does not allow the employer to sack his employee? Wow, I want one of those.

I think Alonso was told he was treading on thin ice, and the fallout we all saw was the result.

[ArrowsFA1]

I guess Ronald wanted to do it but their contract didn't allow him to do it!
That's right, you guess. We don't know the full story but perhaps it's safe to assume McLaren could have sacked Alonso. Remember that Ferrari sacked Alain Prost before the end of the 1991 season because he was critical of the team.

This also explains why the team sabotaged Alonso in the second part of the season.
How exactly did they do that? Fact 1 - Alonso himself has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647) "Last year it is true that I had a possibility to fight for the championship". Fact 2 - He scored more points than Hamilton in the races following the Hungarian GP.

There is simply no basis to this accusation of "sabotage". It's just another unfounded stick used to bash McLaren.

[ioan]

That's right, you guess. We don't know the full story but perhaps it's safe to assume McLaren could have sacked Alonso. Remember that Ferrari sacked Alain Prost before the end of the 1991 season because he was critical of the team.

So the team kept him on in order for him to be able to spill the beans to the FIA?!
Or just to let him further disrupt the teams work?!



How exactly did they do that?

You can run but you can't hide! The tire pressure scandal is well known to anyone, it went as far as to have the FIA tell McLaren that they need to treat both drivers equally and to send a FIA technical delegate in the McLaren garage during the race.
And BTW those are FACTS! ;)




Fact 1 - Alonso himself has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647) "Last year it is true that I had a possibility to fight for the championship".

Sure had a chance given by the team, until a certain point, than it all came down to Lewy driving like a clown.




Fact 2 - He scored more points than Hamilton in the races following the Hungarian GP.

And all this due to Hamilton loosing a 17 points advantage in 2 races, not because Alonso won so many points over the opposition with is deflated tires. :laugh:


There is simply no basis to this accusation of "sabotage". It's just another unfounded stick used to bash McLaren.

There is basis, and the facts were shown. You can chose to ignore what happened, it's your right, but that won't change the reality, and that is that McLaren are a bunch of proven cheaters and liars whom are a favoring a driver over the other (while claiming that they are equal) and all this with the use of rather questionable means.

[ShiftingGears]

There is basis, and the facts were shown.

There is no proof of Alonso being sabotaged. There is speculation.

[ArrowsFA1]

The tire pressure scandal is well known to anyone, it went as far as to have the FIA tell McLaren that they need to treat both drivers equally and to send a FIA technical delegate in the McLaren garage during the race.
And the FIA official found nothing wrong. So what we have is unfounded accusations being directed at McLaren; the FIA jumping in to ensure "fair play" and there being no foundation to the accusations in the first place.

The tyre pressure "scandal" was a simple set-up issue during one qualifying session at the Chinese GP. It's the kind of thing that happens in every team at every race. The team/driver went the wrong way on set-up. It happens.

[ioan]

And the FIA official found nothing wrong. So what we have is unfounded accusations being directed at McLaren; the FIA jumping in to ensure "fair play" and there being no foundation to the accusations in the first place.

Well the FIA official was there only next day, how could he find something about what happened in Qualys the day before?
If this are the facts based on which you are dismissing the accusations made by Alonso, who by the way actually drove that car, than I think we better stop wasting our time.

[ArrowsFA1]

If this are the facts based on which you are dismissing the accusations made by Alonso, who by the way actually drove that car, than I think we better stop wasting our time.
As Alonso said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63395): "we realised that the tyre pressures were a little bit too high and this can happen in any of the qualifying sessions."

[ioan]

As Alonso said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63395): "we realised that the tyre pressures were a little bit too high and this can happen in any of the qualifying sessions."

That wasn't the same line he used at the previous race.
Is it because he was already free to go from McLaren if he was not to make their life hard in the last race?! (BTW that was a rhetorical question)

[Dave B]

As Alonso said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63395): "we realised that the tyre pressures were a little bit too high and this can happen in any of the qualifying sessions."
As indeed happened to Kubica this weekend, and I didn't hear anybody complain that BMW were favouring Heidfeld.

[PolePosition_1]

That wasn't the same line he used at the previous race.
Is it because he was already free to go from McLaren if he was not to make their life hard in the last race?! (BTW that was a rhetorical question)

Ioan - I've become quite fond of your posts, and look forward to them.

And I respect your an F1 fan and know your stuff, but if you make such claims. Thats fair enough, your entitled to your opinion.

But you can't post them and argue that they're facts when there is no proof. They your opinions, which we can debate. But if your going to insist they facts, back them up with reliable sources.

[truefan72]

Ioan - I've become quite fond of your posts, and look forward to them.

And I respect your an F1 fan and know your stuff, but if you make such claims. Thats fair enough, your entitled to your opinion.

But you can't post them and argue that they're facts when there is no proof. They your opinions, which we can debate. But if your going to insist they facts, back them up with reliable sources.

:up:

[Jag_Warrior]

I feel sorry for any girl that ever broke up with Alonso. You know during the off-season he probably parks outside her apartment with binoculars and stalks her.

Talk about a guy who can't let it go.

[PolePosition_1]

I feel sorry for any girl that ever broke up with Alonso. You know during the off-season he probably parks outside her apartment with binoculars and stalks her.

Talk about a guy who can't let it go.

lol where that come from? :confused:

You know, maybe Fernando did have a point...

"By the time we got to Monza, I was ahead of him in the championship, by about 10 points. But that race. was the real low point between McLaren and me. Senna had two cars, with 20 people around him, and I had just one car, with maybe four or five mechanics working for me. I was absolutely alone, in one part of the garage, and that was perhaps the toughest weekend of my racing career"

That was in 1989. Plus ca change.

http://www.prostfan.com/senna2.htm

Doesn't exactly fit in with the official Mclaren policy, now, does it?

[markabilly]

You know, maybe Fernando did have a point...

"By the time we got to Monza, I was ahead of him in the championship, by about 10 points. But that race. was the real low point between McLaren and me. Senna had two cars, with 20 people around him, and I had just one car, with maybe four or five mechanics working for me. I was absolutely alone, in one part of the garage, and that was perhaps the toughest weekend of my racing career"

That was in 1989. Plus ca change.

http://www.prostfan.com/senna2.htm

Doesn't exactly fit in with the official Mclaren policy, now, does it?


Are you sure you are not confusing Prost with Lauda few years earlier......or maybe what goes around......only fair for Prost to find out how lauda had felt when the posters showing Prost, not Lauda wining the WDC in a mac. Only problem was the wrong driver won and all those posters were a waste...........things never changed at mac, and someday goldie may find himself on the outs