Kimi Raikkonen

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not quite sure what to make of him. I thought he would be significantly more dominant than he has been, after a year in the team, but it hasn't happened.

Why?

[Tazio]

Ioan tell him! It will sound better coming from you. ;)

I'm not quite sure what to make of him. I thought he would be significantly more dominant than he has been, after a year in the team, but it hasn't happened.

Why?

Because he's lazy & disinterested?

[markabilly]

lewis and mac will dominant for the rest of the year. There was a team named ferrari, but that team ain't the same team of several years ago.

[ioan]

Because he's lazy & disinterested?

What? Didn't you know that, according to some forum members, Ferrari are only supporting Felipe? They even develop the car especially for him! :D

[jens]

To be honest, for the first time I have seriously started to think that Räikkönen may well leave after 2008. If he seriously lacks of motivation, then there is no reason to keep going until the contract is up if he doesn't enjoy, what he is doing. And again he got trashed by his team-mate in qualifying. I believe he is capable of more, but if he is not maximizing his potential, then why trundle around? In Germany his race seemed "weird" and uninspired too. After the safety car put in some quick laps and passed some people, but besides that there was nothing to remember.

[555-04Q2]

I normally dont come onto the forums on a weekend and especially not to post, but I had exactly the same feelings as theugsquirrel had which is why I came online.

Kimi is not producing the goods at all considering his package and talent. Massa is looking like the current #1 in the team at the moment, not Kimi. What gives Kimi :?:

[wedge]

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128498

[Hawkmoon]

I realise with the passing of each GP just how good Schumacher was. There was never a question about his motivation. He almost never had a poor weekend. Even when he wasn't winning you could see that he was giving 100%. With Raikkonen I don't get that feeling.

Raikkonen has left me a little nonplussed. There's no consistency to the guy. He can be dominant or nowhere. At least Massa appears to be trying his arse off no matter what. Raikkonen should have asserted himself over Massa by now because I believe he is a faster driver.

I can't believe I'm writing this but for the first time I don't mind the thought of an Alonso/Massa lineup at the Scuderia next year. As much as I don't like Alonso, his commitment to winning can't be questioned. It's become all too easy to question Raikkonen's commitment.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nigel Roebuck writes about Kimi this month in Motorsport (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/) and makes a few points that might be worth considering:

1) Ross Brawn on MS: "You don't have to motivate people very much when Michael's around..." which supports Hawkmoon's point. Kimi certainly does not seem to have the same effect on the team.

2) NR - There's a feeling at Ferrari that Raikkonen and, to a lesser extent, Massa, are not doing justice to what they believe to be the best car they have built in five years. "Technically," one close to the team said, "they are useless..."

3) Martin Whitmarsh on Kimi at McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

The picture given is of a driver that does not motivate the team, is not strong technically, and whose performances are not consistent.

[jas123f1]

I realise with the passing of each GP just how good Schumacher was. There was never a question about his motivation. He almost never had a poor weekend. Even when he wasn't winning you could see that he was giving 100%. With Raikkonen I don't get that feeling.

Raikkonen has left me a little nonplussed. There's no consistency to the guy. He can be dominant or nowhere. At least Massa appears to be trying his arse off no matter what. Raikkonen should have asserted himself over Massa by now because I believe he is a faster driver.

I can't believe I'm writing this but for the first time I don't mind the thought of an Alonso/Massa lineup at the Scuderia next year. As much as I don't like Alonso, his commitment to winning can't be questioned. It's become all too easy to question Raikkonen's commitment.

Maybe that's true, but don't forget that Schumi was a number one driver at Ferrari almost whole the time and it make’s it easier to keep motivation. Today Lewis is the number one in his team and the same with Cupica at BMW Sauber.

I should like to see Ferrari (gladly Massa as the WDC) win both titles, but the problem is that as it looks that Ferrari can’t win the titles with Massa and soon it’s impossible for every one.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/02082008/23/raikkonen-need-start-winning.html

Raikkonen: We need to start winning again - now.
Sat 02 Aug, 07:00 PM

Defending F1 World Champion Kimi Raikkonen tells his Ferrari team they need to rapidly start winning races again - or else kiss their hopes of retaining both the drivers' and constructors' titles goodbye...
--------
Every one agree with Kimi .. it's not enough to be on the podium - you need to WIN .. and for that you need a winning car..

I have nothing against Massa, i hope he can win the title but unfortunately it looks not that promising..

:)

[ShiftingGears]

Maybe that's true, but don't forget that Schumi was a number one driver at Ferrari almost whole the time and it make’s it easier to keep motivation.

How is this a reason to support your argument?

[jas123f1]

How is this a reason to support your argument?

Oh mamma mia - i don't want to start that discussion from beginning again - i was thinking that every one knows how it was. :)

[Dave B]

1) Ross Brawn on MS: "You don't have to motivate people very much when Michael's around..." which supports Hawkmoon's point. Kimi certainly does not seem to have the same effect on the team.
Aye, there's the rub. Kimi's "Iceman" persona is all well and good but somehow it doesn't lend itself to the tight-knit atmosphere which any team needs to succeed.

Nobody's suggesting that anybody at Ferrari would deliberately do a sloppy job just becuase their driver isn't Mr Personality, but when the whole teams gels in the way it did during the Schumacher / Brawn / Todt era you subconsciously operate on a higher level. That success breeds confidence and further success.

It seems that right now the team are emotionally aligned in Massa's favour: they seem genuinely happy when he gets a good result. One gets the impression that if Kimi somehow wins today the celebrations will be a touch muted.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh mamma mia - i don't want to start that discussion from beginning again - i was thinking that every one knows how it was. :)

You're saying that Raikkonen is not putting in #1 performances because he is not #1 like Schumacher was.

Do you think there is a reason for that?

[ioan]

I realise with the passing of each GP just how good Schumacher was. There was never a question about his motivation. He almost never had a poor weekend. Even when he wasn't winning you could see that he was giving 100%. With Raikkonen I don't get that feeling.

Raikkonen has left me a little nonplussed. There's no consistency to the guy. He can be dominant or nowhere. At least Massa appears to be trying his arse off no matter what. Raikkonen should have asserted himself over Massa by now because I believe he is a faster driver.

I can't believe I'm writing this but for the first time I don't mind the thought of an Alonso/Massa lineup at the Scuderia next year. As much as I don't like Alonso, his commitment to winning can't be questioned. It's become all too easy to question Raikkonen's commitment.

I've got more or less the same feelings.

[ioan]

Maybe that's true, but don't forget that Schumi was a number one driver at Ferrari almost whole the time and it make’s it easier to keep motivation. Today Lewis is the number one in his team and the same with Cupica at BMW Sauber.

I don't see your point relating this to Kimi.
I mean, why should Ferrari give no.1 status to the slower driver?! What would be the logic behind such a decision?

And who's Cupica?! :p :

[jas123f1]

I don't see your point relating this to Kimi.
I mean, why should Ferrari give no.1 status to the slower driver?! What would be the logic behind such a decision?

And who's Cupica?! :p :

Slower?

Kimi has 6 fastest laps this year against Massa -who has 0. Maybe you are a bit more Massa fan and can’t see the whole picture.. I don't know?

The question is how good the car suit to driver, as you see if you look on Hungarian GP, when Kimi had the soft tyres he was really fast..

But it was NICE to see when Massa tog the start and overtake both McLaren cars.. good work which promise more in the future..


:)

[markabilly]

Slower?

Kimi has 6 fastest laps this year against Massa -who has 0. Maybe you are a bit more Massa fan and can’t see the whole picture.. I don't know?

The question is how good the car suit to driver, as you see if you look on Hungarian GP, when Kimi had the soft tyres he was really fast..

But it was NICE to see when Massa tog the start and overtake both McLaren cars.. good work which promise more in the future..


:)


No question that Kimi in a ferrari, when things are "right" is the fastest driver out there.

Wonder if he suffers from some sort of attention deficit disorder.....people with the disorder have a very difficult time concentrating over a long time period, until they find themselves with the pressure really on from having procastinated (as in an exam where they are about to run out of time), then they get on with it and do well.

For some, Presssure and stress force them to concentrate, so they actually do far better under maximum stress, then they do in the absence or reduced levels of stress
So while others may crash and burn under too much stress, for some with the disorder, the "too much stress" helps them concentrate and do better than they would otherwise....

Same performance from Kimi over the season last year. It was only the last couple of races where he came alive, and even then, nearly did not win the wdc.

Who knows.....I otherwise can not think of any other reason, unlesss it is "lazy and disinterested", a characteristic that was often used to label people who have had the disroder

[wedge]

I thought Kimi had a good race, but bad qualy in Hungary. Overall I'm satisfied.

When you're stuck behind a driver there's nothing worse than being behind a two time champ. It's quite easy sitting there criticising Kimi but you've got to hand it to Alonso using the same tactics to beat Schumi at Imola a few years ago, by lifting the throttle earlier into the apexes and force Kimi to do the hard work.

[jas123f1]

No question that Kimi in a ferrari, when things are "right" is the fastest driver out there.

Wonder if he suffers from some sort of attention deficit disorder.....

For some, Presssure and stress force them to concentrate, so they actually do far better under maximum stress, then they do in the absence or reduced levels of stress..

Same performance from Kimi over the season last year. It was only the last couple of races where he came alive, and even then, nearly did not win the wdc.

I don't believe to any "deficit disorder of attention" .. possible Kimi don't like to risk that much than he did in younger days, he has more routine now and the motivation is coming when he can see that he has a real chance to get some points. He is counting POINTS more than wins.. I think that’s something what happen to every one.. but he still is a winner and wins will come if/when the quali goes better. :)

[Shalafi]

Kimi has one big problem, tires in qualifying. He cant get them to work like it should be (warm enough) and its difficult to win races in todays F1 if you are not in top-3 after qualifying. Still, after all this critic he might well be a two time champ after this season. Pretty good for such a lazy and unmotivated man...Sometimes opinions in this forum are laughable!He has a big problem in qualifying, he has had a bad luck in many races and very fast and underrated team-mate and he is still number 1 favourite to win WDC in the end of the year, so...

[elinagr]

lazy and unmotivated man? come on, you must be hate ferrari a lot!
one of the higher payed drivers out there, and a champion also cannot be so much lazy and unmotivated...

[jas123f1]

Kimi has one big problem, tires in qualifying. He cant get them to work like it should be (warm enough) and its difficult to win races in todays F1 if you are not in top-3 after qualifying. Still, after all this critic he might well be a two time champ after this season. Pretty good for such a lazy and unmotivated man...Sometimes opinions in this forum are laughable!He has a big problem in qualifying, he has had a bad luck in many races and very fast and underrated team-mate and he is still number 1 favourite to win WDC in the end of the year, so...

I can agree with you and I think also that Kimi WANT to get the title again, but same time it's not that important because he already has one - but sure - he can be the title-holder again - absolutely. :)

[markabilly]

lazy and unmotivated man? come on, you must be hate ferrari a lot!
one of the higher payed drivers out there, and a champion also cannot be so much lazy and unmotivated...

that was a quote that came from someone else....and has historically been used to describe the behavior of many who suffer from attention deficit disorder type symptoms

And many who have "sufferred" from it in one form or another have also been inventors, scientists, nobel peace prize winners, including someone named albert einstein

Personally I like Kimi more than any other driver out there, one reason is because he does not engage in all the Danica, Lewis, yayayddada talk talk talk about how "i am so cool...." (You ain't cool if u got to tell everyone you are)

Nevertheless, the fast laps at the end, and the other behavior of someone who is clearly very talented and fast, all follow the classic pattern of AD behavior---they do not make great assembly line, routine type workers, not the type who like to practice over and over again, tend not to be focused over long period of time, easily distracted over long periods of time (but some, when focused and not asleep at the wheel, can be incredibly productive for short periods of time)

Now as to whether that is actually kimi's "problem", I would not know.

And it is not always a detriment, because people with the disorder can function far better than the average person when under unusual and extreme stress---indeed, the capability of being an "iceman" under very high stress, is a classic characteristic of AD in some who can not really avoid distraction in their daily lives, except when under that type of pressure

[Dzeidzei]

that was a quote that came from someone else....and has historically been used to describe the behavior of many who suffer from attention deficit disorder type symptoms

Wow. Dont you think its a bit overly stupid to say that F1 drivers have mental disorders?

Just for your information, thats way beyond uncool. Regardless of you saying of it "not being a detriment" or "not knowing whether that is actually kimi's problem".

To think that youd be able to drive a F1 car with any disorders is plain stupid. Drivers cannot have disorders. Quite a few fans have many.

[ten-tenths]

kimi sometimes leave me wondering as well. like today stuck behind alonso.. but it is alonso and he is not easy to pass. so that is understandable. but in kimi's defense, arguably he should have won at least couple of races more this season. the one where he was handling massa in second, but due to car problems he nursed it home in second, and the hamilton crashing into the gearbox prevented him from collecting more points. his string of fastests laps tells me he is still one of the best and that he just needs to keep fighting.

[wedge]

Wow. Dont you think its a bit overly stupid to say that F1 drivers have mental disorders?

Just for your information, thats way beyond uncool. Regardless of you saying of it "not being a detriment" or "not knowing whether that is actually kimi's problem".

To think that youd be able to drive a F1 car with any disorders is plain stupid. Drivers cannot have disorders. Quite a few fans have many.

You've misunderstood our friend Markabilly. He's not saying Kimi has a mental disorder, just pointing out character traits similar to ADD.

Former and respected engineer Frank Dernie has a interesting theory that introverts make better champs - Clark, Senna, Kimi, Schumi....

[jso1985]

Senna and Schumacher introverts? yeah right....


Back on topic, I know it was the Hungaroring but did Raikkonen even tried to overtake Alonso? didn't see at least one try.
but!... lazy and unmotivated or not, he's still pretty much into the title hunt

[markabilly]

Senna and Schumacher introverts? yeah right....


Back on topic, I know it was the Hungaroring but did Raikkonen even tried to overtake Alonso? didn't see at least one try.
but!... lazy and unmotivated or not, he's still pretty much into the title hunt
Check out the overtaking thread....seems that LH was going very fast back up through the field but once he had nothing between him and FA, he just stayed a few seconds behind in what was clearly the faster car.....

and again lazy and unmotivated were not my words (indeed the quote was lazy and disinterested from someone else)

It was merely an observation that the pattern of behavior of driving this year, that seems to fit the pattern of behavior that some people engage in or demonstrate with ADD

and some people who are introverts also suffer from inferiority complexes, and to compensate, they engage in over-acheiver behavior in something they excell at----hence the basis for such an observation may well demonstrate their motivation. No matter how satisfied we might be with a similar acheivement, these people are not impressed at all by their own accomplishments, so they keep striding to do better(they shrug it off, if they get five poles in a row, and deep inside, they boil over the fact that they did not get number 6)

[jas123f1]

Check out the overtaking thread....seems that LH was going very fast back up through the field but once he had nothing between him and FA, he just stayed a few seconds behind in what was clearly the faster car.....

and again lazy and unmotivated were not my words (indeed the quote was lazy and disinterested from someone else)

It was merely an observation that the pattern of behavior of driving this year, that seems to fit the pattern of behavior that some people engage in or demonstrate with ADD

and some people who are introverts also suffer from inferiority complexes, and to compensate, they engage in over-acheiver behavior in something they excell at----hence the basis for such an observation may well demonstrate their motivation. No matter how satisfied we might be with a similar acheivement, these people are not impressed at all by their own accomplishments, so they keep striding to do better(they shrug it off, if they get five poles in a row, and deep inside, they boil over the fact that they did not get number 6)

I must agree with Dzeidzei - you speak too much b*** s*** - (don't take it personally :)

[markabilly]

I must agree with Dzeidzei - you speak too much b*** s*** - (don't take it personally :)


I don't take name calling "personally". Indeed, I take it as simply evidence that whoever slides down to that level has no facts or logic to back up anything they say or they can not comprehend the obvious, or both :D

But do not take it personally, as I am sure you try very hard. ;)

[leopard]

Probably he has done to the utmost, he just couldn't afford result better than it. :)

[Dzeidzei]

You've misunderstood our friend Markabilly. He's not saying Kimi has a mental disorder, just pointing out character traits similar to ADD.


Fine then.

I still stick to the fact that you CANNOT drive a F1 car if theres any lack of concentration. My own experience comes only from F3 and years ago, but I tell you for a fact that any lack of concentration and youre doomed. Hell, even slowing down can put you in a lot of trouble.

[jas123f1]

I don't take name calling "personally". Indeed, I take it as simply evidence that whoever slides down to that level has no facts or logic to back up anything they say or they can not comprehend the obvious, or both :D

But do not take it personally, as I am sure you try very hard. ;)

I hope you understood that I only was thinking your writing of Kimi’s mentality.. when I said that you wrote too much b*** s***..

'''' … some people who are introverts also suffer from inferiority complexes, and to compensate, they engage in over-acheiver behavior in something they excell at----hence the basis for such an observation may well demonstrate their motivation. No matter how satisfied we might be with a similar achievement….. blaa blaa '''' ...

:)

[PolePosition_1]

Slower?

Kimi has 6 fastest laps this year against Massa -who has 0. Maybe you are a bit more Massa fan and can’t see the whole picture.. I don't know?

The question is how good the car suit to driver, as you see if you look on Hungarian GP, when Kimi had the soft tyres he was really fast..

But it was NICE to see when Massa tog the start and overtake both McLaren cars.. good work which promise more in the future..


:)

I was going to point out exactly the same, but with a different interpretation.

Kimi has 6 fastest laps, yet has been less consistant than Massa over past 10 races.

Massa gets critisized for being inconsistant, but surely its Kimi who has been inconsistant over this past season.

If he setting fastest laps, means the pace is there, but he's just unable to extract it consistantly.

[markabilly]

Fine then.

I still stick to the fact that you CANNOT drive a F1 car if theres any lack of concentration. My own experience comes only from F3 and years ago, but I tell you for a fact that any lack of concentration and youre doomed. Hell, even slowing down can put you in a lot of trouble.


there is concentration and then there is the concentration and effort of the very best drivers that puts a car at the very max edge, where in the latter effort, it produces the fastest lap after fastest lap.

That latter effort seems to be following a certain pattern in Kimi's case was all that I referenced.

Whether he really is asleep at the wheel and has to wake up.......I dunno.

MS used to talk of day dreaming or thinking about other things such as his wife and children when driving down the straights, and keeping track of his lap times etc. Was that really true, or was he trying to mess with his opponents' minds, I don't know. LH claimed in Japan, he kept having visions and images of Senna during the race. Again truth or fiction, only the driver knows. Another example is the so-called "red mist" where a driver gets angry and drives even harder. truth or fiction, again only the driver knows.

At that level, what appears to require 110% effort from one of us, might be 80% for a Kimi or MS

[Garry Walker]

Nigel Roebuck writes about Kimi this month in Motorsport (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/) and makes a few points that might be worth considering:

1) Ross Brawn on MS: "You don't have to motivate people very much when Michael's around..." which supports Hawkmoon's point. Kimi certainly does not seem to have the same effect on the team.

2) NR - There's a feeling at Ferrari that Raikkonen and, to a lesser extent, Massa, are not doing justice to what they believe to be the best car they have built in five years. "Technically," one close to the team said, "they are useless..."

3) Martin Whitmarsh on Kimi at McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

The picture given is of a driver that does not motivate the team, is not strong technically, and whose performances are not consistent.

Roebuck is a moron, always has been and knows only one thing - hyping up Gilles Villeneuve for being 11 seconds faster in a practise session.

2) Räikkönen has been praised by both McLaren and Ferrari engineers for having a good feedback, also from michelin guys. I have no doubt Massa is the same, especially having spent a year as a Ferrari test driver.

3) Maybe Whitmarsh should have given him a car that didn`t have a rear wing failure, an engine failure or a throttle failure after 5 laps then.

[DexDexter]

Check out the overtaking thread....seems that LH was going very fast back up through the field but once he had nothing between him and FA, he just stayed a few seconds behind in what was clearly the faster car.....

and again lazy and unmotivated were not my words (indeed the quote was lazy and disinterested from someone else)

It was merely an observation that the pattern of behavior of driving this year, that seems to fit the pattern of behavior that some people engage in or demonstrate with ADD

and some people who are introverts also suffer from inferiority complexes, and to compensate, they engage in over-acheiver behavior in something they excell at----hence the basis for such an observation may well demonstrate their motivation. No matter how satisfied we might be with a similar acheivement, these people are not impressed at all by their own accomplishments, so they keep striding to do better(they shrug it off, if they get five poles in a row, and deep inside, they boil over the fact that they did not get number 6)

Ever been to Finland? There are a lot of introverts here, so we must all be suffering from a somekind of a syndrome, right? Kimi is a quite typical Finn, I assure you. Perhaps you fail to grasp the huge cultural differences people from different cultures can have and make wrong perceptions about people's attitudes etc. because of that.

[555-04Q2]

Kimi has 6 fastest laps, yet has been less consistant than Massa over past 10 races.

Massa gets critisized for being inconsistant, but surely its Kimi who has been inconsistant over this past season.

If he setting fastest laps, means the pace is there, but he's just unable to extract it consistantly.

A while back I made a comment that Kimi was very inconsistant and nearly got my head cut off for it. I stand by my opinion again, Kimi is inconsistant and really should be thumping my man Massa. He has the ability to become a great multiple WDC, but will sadly never achieve it.

[PolePosition_1]

A while back I made a comment that Kimi was very inconsistant and nearly got my head cut off for it. I stand by my opinion again, Kimi is inconsistant and really should be thumping my man Massa. He has the ability to become a great multiple WDC, but will sadly never achieve it.

I know, I've previously made similar comments regarding this season and people seem to take massive offence from it.

But its true, Massa has been incredibly consistant this season, more so than the other drivers competing for the title.

Yet due to his reputation (which is understandable considering his past form), all he needs is one bad race and people will jump on it.

And with Kimi its vice versa in a sense. Due to his reputation (again understandable since his McLaren days), even if Kimi has few bad races not many people make comments.....or they make comments, but whereas with Massa it goes along the lines of he doesn't deserve a place at Ferrari...whereas with Kimi it'd be stupid to get rid of him.

But at end of day, Kimi has lacked consistancy since joining Ferrari. Last season he only found top form from France onwards, and this year he has been up and down.

While with Massa, he made a couple of errors at beginning of season, and several in Silverstone, but other than that he has been continously strong.

Considering he was on 0 points at round 3, and would be leading the title if it weren't for his failure in Hungary, I think its fair to say he has driven incredibly well this season.

And in a shocking personal twist, I want Massa to win the title this year....and I never thought I'd ever want a Ferrari driver to win the title.

[Knock-on]

A while back I made a comment that Kimi was very inconsistant and nearly got my head cut off for it. I stand by my opinion again, Kimi is inconsistant and really should be thumping my man Massa. He has the ability to become a great multiple WDC, but will sadly never achieve it.

Oh I don't know. I think he's been very consistent.

He consistently demonstrates that the Ferrari is a superb car by banging in a few fastest laps and consistently under performs in it.

When you have a car capable of winning races and consistently fail to show up for the weekend, it says something.

Lets face it, if it wasn't for a puncture and an engine blow for 1 and 2, he would have been in 5th this weekend with a car that demonstrated it was fastest.

Sooner or later, the buck has to stop somewhere.

[longisland]

Apparently, Ferrari is in serious trouble judging from the threads posted. A quick but flawed driver in Massa & a uninspired WDC who won the title because Lewis threw it away in the last race. Kimi's substandard performance earned him a second place in the current driver's standing. This is a really tough crowd to please.

[wedge]

Roebuck is a moron, always has been and knows only one thing - hyping up Gilles Villeneuve for being 11 seconds faster in a practise session.

2) Räikkönen has been praised by both McLaren and Ferrari engineers for having a good feedback, also from michelin guys. I have no doubt Massa is the same, especially having spent a year as a Ferrari test driver.

3) Maybe Whitmarsh should have given him a car that didn`t have a rear wing failure, an engine failure or a throttle failure after 5 laps then.

Garry, do you now rate Kimi?

I seem to remember last you said something along the lines of 'Massa would show how over-rated Kimi was'.

Or is it you enjoy picking flaws in people's arguments (perhaps) from an unbiased perspective.

I can never understand your MO. I suppose you'd rather keep it that way!

[wedge]

But at end of day, Kimi has lacked consistancy since joining Ferrari. Last season he only found top form from France onwards, and this year he has been up and down.

And yet despite all those consistant driving he's currently second in the WDC and 5pts adrift.

The fact is, neither Massa, Kimi or Lewis have shown consistancy.

Massa and Kimi seem to make hilarious basic errors by spinning off - Kimi at Monaco; Massa at Melbourne, Malaysia, Silverstone. Lewis made a fundamental error in Canada and France but couldn't get the car to work for him in Malaysia and Bahrain.

[PolePosition_1]

And yet despite all those consistant driving he's currently second in the WDC and 5pts adrift.

The fact is, neither Massa, Kimi or Lewis have shown consistancy.

Massa and Kimi seem to make hilarious basic errors by spinning off - Kimi at Monaco; Massa at Melbourne, Malaysia, Silverstone. Lewis made a fundamental error in Canada and France but couldn't get the car to work for him in Malaysia and Bahrain.

Wedge, since Monaco he has finished 9th, retired, 2nd (in France but beaten by Massa), 4th, 6th and 3rd (yesterday, but his pace was going to finish him in 5th.

In that period Massa has been on the podium bar once, if you exclude Silverstone and hungary (where Silverstone was a mess, and Hungary he'd have won).

None have been consistancy compared to previous seasons champions because the competition is tighter.

I admit Massa has made mistakes, but he's been more consistant than Kimi, and not many people seem to acknowledge that.

So yeah Kimi is 2nd, but thats not through consistancy. Its through others misfortunes.

[wedge]

I admit Massa has made mistakes, but he's been more consistant than Kimi, and not many people seem to acknowledge that.

Of course people acknowledge Massa, else we wouldn't question Kimi on this thread!

[Knock-on]

At the end of the day, the Ferrari, IMHO, is still the best car out there but the drivers have underperformed and seeing as Kimi has proved he is the faster of the drivers in terms of pace, he should be leading the championship by a mile.

How can I back up such a statement?

There have been 11 races so fan and Kimi has had faster laps than Massa in 10 of those.

What's more, he has had 7 overall fastest laps.

2/3 of the races this year, he has been the fastest man out there.

Now, unless he's had some drastic bad luck and mechanical failures nobody else has, then he has performed very poorly indeed.

Well,

[wedge]

At the end of the day, the Ferrari, IMHO, is still the best car out there but the drivers have underperformed and seeing as Kimi has proved he is the faster of the drivers in terms of pace, he should be leading the championship by a mile.

How can I back up such a statement?

There have been 11 races so fan and Kimi has had faster laps than Massa in 10 of those.

What's more, he has had 7 overall fastest laps.

2/3 of the races this year, he has been the fastest man out there.

Except Kimi has been outqualified by Massa and near equal in terms of finishing, which suggests Kimi needs to sort out his qualy pace pronto.

[Knock-on]

Except Kimi has been outqualified by Massa and near equal in terms of finishing, which suggests Kimi needs to sort out his qualy pace pronto.

That's what I'm saying. The car is bloody quick but Kimi is not consistant.

He's the fastest out there but only for a few laps a race.

[jjanicke]

Wedge, since Monaco he has finished 9th, retired, 2nd (in France but beaten by Massa), 4th, 6th and 3rd (yesterday, but his pace was going to finish him in 5th.

In that period Massa has been on the podium bar once, if you exclude Silverstone and hungary (where Silverstone was a mess, and Hungary he'd have won).

None have been consistancy compared to previous seasons champions because the competition is tighter.

I admit Massa has made mistakes, but he's been more consistant than Kimi, and not many people seem to acknowledge that.

So yeah Kimi is 2nd, but thats not through consistancy. Its through others misfortunes.

Kimi was "beaten" by Massa in France? What race did you watch. The one I watched had Kimi hampered by a broken exhaust that tore and melted the rear end of his car appart. I'm 100% positive Kimi was spanking Massa, when he had to back off due to a mechanical.

And then in Canada he "retired" due to no mistake of his own. He was sitting waiting at a red light while struck from behind.

In Germany he was on pace to pass Massa, but a SC took that chance away.

The way I see, the only race Massa handidly outdrove his teamate is Turkey.

Kimi's problem is not race speed, it's qualifying speed. He is having problems, like last year, getting his tires up to temp and working before his timed lap.

[ioan]

Oh I don't know. I think he's been very consistent.

He consistently demonstrates that the Ferrari is a superb car by banging in a few fastest laps and consistently under performs in it.

When you have a car capable of winning races and consistently fail to show up for the weekend, it says something.

Lets face it, if it wasn't for a puncture and an engine blow for 1 and 2, he would have been in 5th this weekend with a car that demonstrated it was fastest.

Sooner or later, the buck has to stop somewhere.

As hard as it might be I have to agree with this.

[ioan]

In Germany he was on pace to pass Massa, but a SC took that chance away.

Hey Ron, how's the weather in Woking?! :laugh:



The way I see, the only race Massa handidly outdrove his teamate is Turkey.


Let's add Hungary to that! ;)

[Shalafi]

Kimi's problem is not race speed, it's qualifying speed. He is having problems, like last year, getting his tires up to temp and working before his timed lap.

THIS is the reason. People here make it too complicated! Its not about motivation, inconsistency, whatever... Its his problem to get tires temp up in qualifying. He has shown with 7 fastest laps in race that he is the quickest out there. But there is no benefit of that speed if you are driving behind someone for most of the race. He has to qualify to front row. Kimi and Ferrari will do everything to get that problem sorted for next race, because if they do, Kimi is easily nr 1 favourite for the title.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's what I'm saying. The car is bloody quick but Kimi is not consistant.

He's the fastest out there but only for a few laps a race.
A view entirely backed up by Martin Whitmarsh's comments about Kimi while he was with McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

[Shalafi]

A view entirely backed up by Martin Whitmarsh's comments about Kimi while he was with McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

So he says that now when Kimi is in Ferrari and the most dangerous threat for their own Golden boy... so that is quite a biased view. And what is the point to write that same quote twice in the same thread?

[ArrowsFA1]

So he says that now when Kimi is in Ferrari and the most dangerous threat for their own Golden boy... so that is quite a biased view.
It's the view of someone who has worked closely with Kimi over a number of years.

[Shalafi]

It's the view of someone who has worked closely with Kimi over a number of years.

More like a bitter view of someone that couldnt give Kimi a WDC-car, lost him unwillingly in a rival team where Kimi became a WDC at the expence of their drivers...

[jas123f1]

A view entirely backed up by Martin Whitmarsh's comments about Kimi while he was with McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

So the levels of Kimis genius was "sometimes" less than McLaren might have expected :D

[wedge]

A view entirely backed up by Martin Whitmarsh's comments about Kimi while he was with McLaren: "...by the levels of genius that he could show on occasions, there were times when his performance was...less than we might have expected."

Any examples?

I thought Kimi was exceptional in the McLarens given that they were there or thereabouts. I couldn't ask for more from him. Only bad point was the 2002 when he was new to McLaren and DC had the upper hand.

You can't point the finger of blame at Kimi if the car and engine falls apart too easily eg. a wing failure really shouldn't during the middle of the German GP 2004?? and nor should the engine fail often during practice and thereby enforcing 10 place grid penalties in 2005.

And Kimi has shown consistancy before. JPM was the realistic contender to Schumi in 2003 but Kimi was consistantly scoring points and ended up fight for the WDC in Suzuka that year.

[Garry Walker]

At the end of the day, the Ferrari, IMHO, is still the best car out there but the drivers have underperformed and seeing as Kimi has proved he is the faster of the drivers in terms of pace, he should be leading the championship by a mile.

How can I back up such a statement?

There have been 11 races so fan and Kimi has had faster laps than Massa in 10 of those.

What's more, he has had 7 overall fastest laps.

2/3 of the races this year, he has been the fastest man out there.

Now, unless he's had some drastic bad luck and mechanical failures nobody else has, then he has performed very poorly indeed.

Well,

Ferraris problem is qualy pace. It has slowed both Massa and Kimi down on many occasions and even at Hungary, when looking at when they pitted, both Kimi and Massa did equal lap times in qualy. But Kimi was very unlucky to get stuck behind Alonso.

Ferraris ability to save tyres over a stint is also something that hurts them a lot when it is cold and in qualifying too.
So Ferraris strong point, also makes them vulnerable.


Any examples?

I thought Kimi was exceptional in the McLarens given that they were there or thereabouts. I couldn't ask for more from him. Only bad point was the 2002 when he was new to McLaren and DC had the upper hand.


Kimi was the faster man at once in McLaren.

[Garry Walker]

Garry, do you now rate Kimi?

I seem to remember last you said something along the lines of 'Massa would show how over-rated Kimi was'.

Or is it you enjoy picking flaws in people's arguments (perhaps) from an unbiased perspective.

I can never understand your MO. I suppose you'd rather keep it that way!

At the time Kimi was still from the enemy that was McLaren, but a lot of what I posted back then was to calm down some of the kimi fans who were sure he was going to dominate Massa. I never thought that would happen and was sure it was going to be a close battle between them, and so it has turned out to be. I also think my claims about Massa showing that Kimi is overrated have in a way turned out correct, because there was a plethora of fanboys who hpyed Kimis speed up and as history has shown, he doesn`t really have a speed advantage over Massa. Still, I regard both of them as amongst the very very best drivers in F1 and for sure the strongest driver pairing in F1.

I remember putting my neck on the line and making a bet with one member
regarding massa vs Kimi and winning it :D
So everything I said, later happened in reality :D

Regarding Kimi, I have to say that I started liking him more and more because of the mature way he behaved last year when things were going really bad for him. Unlike a certain spaniard, he didn`t whine or cry and just kept his head down and did the job. No politics, no BS, just racing. Just as it should be.

I would never dare to claim that I am unbiased!

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferraris problem is qualy pace.
I thought I'd read somewhere that Kimi generally runs with a heavier fuel load in Q3. Any substance to this?

[Garry Walker]

I thought I'd read somewhere that Kimi generally runs with a heavier fuel load in Q3. Any substance to this?

Well, we can just look at every race and when the guys have pitted. At Hungary Kimi was extremely heavy, I have no idea what the ferraris guys were thinking.

Still, Ferrari is much better in race in comparison to qualifying.

[wedge]

Well, we can just look at every race and when the guys have pitted. At Hungary Kimi was extremely heavy, I have no idea what the ferraris guys were thinking.

Still, Ferrari is much better in race in comparison to qualifying.

History says Kimi likes to go long. 2006 is a good example of this because he scored points and podiums in a useless (by their standards) McLaren.

IIRC Malaysia he qualified wrong end of the top 10 (due to fuel load) and was caught out on first lap collision. Pit passed his way onto podium in Nurburgring.

[gloomyDAY]

Kimi is going to take another championship....

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi Raikkonen insists he must raise his game in qualifying if he is to have a realistic chance of winning the title this year.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69693

[jas123f1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69693


I agree with him - he is the fastest man on the track ..

Fastest laps 2008 so far.. Kimi 7, Heikki 2, Nick 2. (11 GPs)


ING Australian Grand Prix
Fastest lap: Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren)

Malaysian Grand Prix 2008 - Kuala Lumpur
Fastest lap: Nick Heidfeld (BMW Sauber)

Bahrain Grand Prix 2008 - Sakhir
Fastest lap: Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren)

Gran Premio de España 2008 - Catalunya
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

Turkish Grand Prix 2008 - Istanbul
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

Grand Prix de Monaco 2008 - Monte-Carlo
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

Grand Prix du Canada 2008 - Montréal
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

Grand Prix de France 2008 - Nevers Magny-Cours
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

British Grand Prix 2008 - Silverstone
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

Grosser Preis von Deutschland 2008 - Hockenheim
Fastest lap: Nick Heidfeld (BMW Sauber)

Magyar Nagydíj 2008 - Budapest
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)

BTW "is it sure that Nick hasn't any roots in Finland" ? :D

[jso1985]

Being the fastest on one lap doesn't make you the fastest on track!, honestly how many of you rate Kovalainen being faster than Hamilton?

In the end the "true"(using just statistics) fastest driver is the race winner... otherwise he wouldn't have won...

[jjanicke]

Being the fastest on one lap doesn't make you the fastest on track!, honestly how many of you rate Kovalainen being faster than Hamilton?

In the end the "true"(using just statistics) fastest driver is the race winner... otherwise he wouldn't have won...

semantics.

How about "... he is the fastest man, over 1 lap, during the race ...."?

[jjanicke]

Interesting fact:

Australia - Kimi
Malaysia - Kimi
Bahrain - Massa
Spain - Kimi
Turkey - Massa
Monaco - Massa
Canada - Massa
France - Massa
GB - Kimi
Germany - Massa
Hungary - Kimi

So far this season, without any further color, Massa leads Kimi 6-5 races. However factor in Kimi leading Massa handedly in Canada before being taken out, the SC that put NP Jr in 2nd at Germany and most likely prevented Kimi from leap frogging Massa, and Massa's struggles in Hungary. And all of a sudden it's 5-6 in Kimi's favor. Add up the finishing positions and Kimi enjoys and 21 position advantage in 11 of 18 races.

Kimi has had all types of drama in 3 of the last 5 races (Hit from behind in Canada, Exhaust failure in France, SC in Germany). Give him a little consistency and he'll find his way well ahead of Massa soon.

[jas123f1]

Being the fastest on one lap doesn't make you the fastest on track!...

You can’t see in the statistic - if someone is fastest ONLY on one lap or not? :) and don't forget that Kimi also has been 6 times on podium during the season (the same as Massa and Lewis) and in Canada Lewis tog him out of the race when he crashed in the back of Kimi when he was together with Kubica waiting for the green light from the pit .. and actually in the leading the race together with Kubica..

So I wouldn't be too surprised if Ferrari and Kimi (or Massa) take’s the titles also for 2008. :)

[ten-tenths]

I never thought that would happen and was sure it was going to be a close battle between them, and so it has turned out to be. I also think my claims about Massa showing that Kimi is overrated have in a way turned out correct, because there was a plethora of fanboys who hpyed Kimis speed up and as history has shown, he doesn`t really have a speed advantage over Massa. Still, I regard both of them as amongst the very very best drivers in F1 and for sure the strongest driver pairing in F1.

I remember putting my neck on the line and making a bet with one member
regarding massa vs Kimi and winning it :D
So everything I said, later happened in reality :D

Regarding Kimi, I have to say that I started liking him more and more because of the mature way he behaved last year when things were going really bad for him. Unlike a certain spaniard, he didn`t whine or cry and just kept his head down and did the job. No politics, no BS, just racing. Just as it should be.

I would never dare to claim that I am unbiased!

i was suprised by the closeness of those two guys. last year i felt the difference between them were greater than this year. i feel instead of kimi being overrated, i feel massa was underrated. i think massa is still getting better. the last year he was paired with schumi, he started to give schumi a run for his money on several occasions. i also feel kimi's driving style vs massa is a bit different and the current direction of the ferrari chasis benefits massa. but massa has shown me now that he is definitely capable of winning the drivers championship.

[harsha]

maybe the mclaren suits Kimi's driving style more :)

[ioan]

Interesting fact:

Australia - Kimi
Malaysia - Kimi
Bahrain - Massa
Spain - Kimi
Turkey - Massa
Monaco - Massa
Canada - Massa
France - Massa
GB - Kimi
Germany - Massa
Hungary - Kimi

So far this season, without any further color, Massa leads Kimi 6-5 races.

And those were the facts.

Now to the subjective, hypothetic part of the post:


However factor in Kimi leading Massa handedly in Canada before being taken out, the SC that put NP Jr in 2nd at Germany and most likely prevented Kimi from leap frogging Massa, and Massa's struggles in Hungary . And all of a sudden it's 5-6 in Kimi's favor. Add up the finishing positions and Kimi enjoys and 21 position advantage in 11 of 18 races.

"Massa's struggles in Hungary" ?! On what planet are you living exactly? :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Of course people acknowledge Massa, else we wouldn't question Kimi on this thread!


I'm not saying Massa isn't acknowledged.

I'm saying Massa has the inconsistant tag, despite being more consistant than Kimi - and thats not acknowledged.

[PolePosition_1]

Kimi was "beaten" by Massa in France? What race did you watch. The one I watched had Kimi hampered by a broken exhaust that tore and melted the rear end of his car appart. I'm 100% positive Kimi was spanking Massa, when he had to back off due to a mechanical.

And then in Canada he "retired" due to no mistake of his own. He was sitting waiting at a red light while struck from behind.

In Germany he was on pace to pass Massa, but a SC took that chance away.

The way I see, the only race Massa handidly outdrove his teamate is Turkey.

Kimi's problem is not race speed, it's qualifying speed. He is having problems, like last year, getting his tires up to temp and working before his timed lap.

Yeah, fair point about France. I apologise for my mistake.

But you believe Kimi had pace and was going to beat Massa in Germany? I can't agree with that.

[jens]

One more thing. Massa has been so often criticized for his "lack of aggressiveness" or whatever, but let's be honest - during his Ferrari period Kimi's aggressiveness has been actually worse. I see no fight in him. He just trundled for 2/3 of the race behind Alonso, caught quickly Glock and then trundled behind him too.

And always the excuses of a "hard to pass". Other drivers don't get excused for lack of attack, they just get bashed for not doing wonders. But Kimi just gets excused and besides the myth of "the fastest driver in F1" he is praised for being one of the best fighters in F1 too (or at least this is what I've heard during the years). I don't buy that any more. In his Ferrari period Kimi has actually created exactly the impression that he can drive well only if he is in free way. :rolleyes: The same impression Massa has unfairly been carrying forever - "driver, who can win only from pole".

[wedge]

I see no fight in him. He just trundled for 2/3 of the race behind Alonso, caught quickly Glock and then trundled behind him too.

So you're saying Alonso is easy to pass even though Alonso held up Schumi eg. Imola 2005, Turkey2006?

Is it unsatisfactory that Kimi decided to stay behind Alonso, save fuel and pit pass him instead of a risky do or die move?

Is it also unsatisfactory that Kimi was told to slow down because of Massa's engine failure just as Kimi caught up with Glock?

Kimi deserves criticism for this year but a bit unfair for the Hungarian GP. OK he couldn't get the job done in qualy but then at least he did something right in the GP.

Kimi deserves criticism for this year but a bit unfair for the Hungarian GP. OK he couldn't get the job done in qualy but then at least he did something right in the GP.

Yes, but only because his two championship rivals had bad luck/misfortune. He'd have been 5th otherwise, only leapfrogging Alonso who, brilliant driver though he is, was dropping down the field more times than not this year (Germany, France, Spain, Australia).

I just pray that Kimi & Ferrari can get to grips with his problems in qualifying.

Actually, let me rephrase that...I just pray that Ferrari get to grips with it, I'm not at all convinced that Raikkonen has the ability or motivation to play a significant part in that.

And there lies the problem that it appears, dare I say, that Ferrari fans have with the current World Champion.

He was supposed to be the equal of our dear departed five-time championship hero (or villain, if you don't share the taste for all things scarlet)....at least that's what our opponents regularly said.

Yes, he won the title for us...but we are not used to seeing our World Champions struggle against their supposedly weaker team-mates.

We hoped he would, with a title under his belt, rise up to be dominant....if not against our opposition, at the very least within the team.

He hasn't....and I for one am getting to the stage where if he doesn't get to grips with his failings and do it double-quick I want Ferrari to give him his cards and get Alonso on board.

Sure, Fernando may have character flaws, but he knows how to keep on pushing.

[jens]

So you're saying Alonso is easy to pass even though Alonso held up Schumi eg. Imola 2005, Turkey2006?

Is it unsatisfactory that Kimi decided to stay behind Alonso, save fuel and pit pass him instead of a risky do or die move?

Is it also unsatisfactory that Kimi was told to slow down because of Massa's engine failure just as Kimi caught up with Glock?

Kimi deserves criticism for this year but a bit unfair for the Hungarian GP. OK he couldn't get the job done in qualy but then at least he did something right in the GP.

In free way Kimi was lapping something like clearly more than 1 second a lap faster the drivers he was stuck behind. Sure my post is a bit emotional, but I'm just tired, how his lack of aggressiveness always gets excused, while others doesn't.

Recall 2007 and how Massa got criticized for lack of passing in Hungary from his lowly grid position. Kimi was no better in a car, which was way faster than the cars around him.

To become champion risks are needed to be taken too. 50 laps behind a clearly slower car and zero attempts? A driver should at least try to get close, try different racing lines to see and analyze, how to outsmart the driver in front. Considering how Massa was rated as the donkey of the race in Germany by some, then by the same logic Räikkönen is easily the donkey in Hungary.

[wedge]

Yes, but only because his two championship rivals had bad luck/misfortune. He'd have been 5th otherwise, only leapfrogging Alonso who, brilliant driver though he is, was dropping down the field more times than not this year (Germany, France, Spain, Australia).

True but don't you think Karma owes Kimi during his time with McLaren? :p

True but don't you think Karma owes Kimi during his time with McLaren? :p

Personally, I think he will be punished in his next life for once being a Mclaren driver.

[wedge]

To become champion risks are needed to be taken too. 50 laps behind a clearly slower car and zero attempts? A driver should at least try to get close, try different racing lines to see and analyze, how to outsmart the driver in front. Considering how Massa was rated as the donkey of the race in Germany by some, then by the same logic Räikkönen is easily the donkey in Hungary.

Kimi could've won last year but settled for second. So by your definition Kimi is a World Donkey Champion!

Hungary is one of the most difficult tracks to pass on. With the current regulations the best way to do it is to pit pass especially if you're up against someone like Alonso.

[wedge]

Personally, I think he will be punished in his next life for once being a Mclaren driver.

Even though he won the WDC in a Ferrari :D

[ioan]

Hungary is one of the most difficult tracks to pass on.

I remember RS making a ton of overtaking moves not so many years ago in Hungary. So it's actually not that difficult if someone really wants to.

[DexDexter]

Kimi could've won last year but settled for second. So by your definition Kimi is a World Donkey Champion!

Hungary is one of the most difficult tracks to pass on. With the current regulations the best way to do it is to pit pass especially if you're up against someone like Alonso.

It's virtually impossible to pass in Hungary if you are racing a car that is at least somewhat competitive. We have seen that so many times over the years. Back in 1990 Thierry Boutsen won the race because Williams happened to get it right in quali and he got the pole. Then a train followed him (Senna for example) for the whole race, anybody here remember that?

[SGWilko]

It's virtually impossible to pass in Hungary if you are racing a car that is at least somewhat competitive. We have seen that so many times over the years. Back in 1990 Thierry Boutsen won the race because Williams happened to get it right in quali and he got the pole. Then a train followed him (Senna for example) for the whole race, anybody here remember that?

WHat about 1989. Who started (12th or 14th, can't remember) and won?