The 2009 IndyCar Series schedule:

[The instant classic]

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=12175

what does everyone think?

[The instant classic]

i think its good, but i wolud have like to have seen, more of a nice mix of tracks befor indy like..

Streets of St. Petersburg
Kansas Speedway
Richmond
Texas Motor Speedway
then the indy 500

for we could see a nice mix of everything short tracks street tracks, superspeedways,and mile oval, a nice mix befor indy

but i still like next year schedule

[ChampUSfan]

AWESOME SCHEDULE!!!! I would kiss TG on the mouth ;)

[bblocker68]

Yes, the consecutive ovals may get a little boring, but it'll be great for the teams to set up the car for the same types of track, instead of having to completely re-work the car for oval-street-oval-road-oval, etc. I would have liked to have seen Cleveland on the list, but I can live without it for now. Losing Australia was a bummer, but I bet they'll keep going with the V8's being the bigger draw the last couple of years.

Overall, I',m pretty please and look forward to 2009!

[The instant classic]

Yes, the consecutive ovals may get a little boring, but it'll be great for the teams to set up the car for the same types of track, instead of having to completely re-work the car for oval-street-oval-road-oval, etc. I would have liked to have seen Cleveland on the list, but I can live without it for now. Losing Australia was a bummer, but I bet they'll keep going with the V8's being the bigger draw the last couple of years.

Overall, I',m pretty please and look forward to 2009!

i found it weird that the last race is homestead? that race has never been great,i dont know why they didnt make it, like you said clevland ;)

[ChampUSfan]

i found it weird that the last race is homestead? that race has never been great,i dont know why they didnt make it, like you said clevland ;)

Personally I always has liked Miami. Great race track with a great spectacle. I've never got bored while watching that race ;) I hope it will be a night race. That would be awesome ;)

[ChampUSfan]

I read something about Australia locked in for a few years, and now it's not even on the schedule. that's shocking cause that's great event (I went there a few years ago)

[The instant classic]

Personally I always has liked Miami. Great race track with a great spectacle. I've never got bored while watching that race ;) I hope it will be a night race. That would be awesome ;)

yeah maybe its just me, i kind of got tierd of dan leading every lap the past few years, i like they race at night now the only prob with that its past marco bedtime ;)

[ChampUSfan]

yeah maybe its just me, i kind of got tierd of dan leading every lap the past few years, i like they race at night now the only prob with that its past marco bedtime ;)

Did Dan win this season ? I guess not.

[BenRoethig]

I read something about Australia locked in for a few years, and now it's not even on the schedule. that's shocking cause that's great event (I went there a few years ago)

I think its going to end up on it anyway, but they're trying to figure how they're going to handle the race and when its going to fit on the schedule. It makes no sense to sign a long term deal and then drop the race. If its run in March or October, its going to be an exhibition race. If they can move it to September after Motegi, its going to be a points race.

[The instant classic]

Did Dan win this season ? I guess not.

na i was kind of talking about other years with him, so when it came to this year homestead, i was like, here we go dan leads every lap again,
i didnt mind this year homestead race, i like it i was kind of got worry dan wolud lead everything again,

[Wilf]

Yes, the consecutive ovals may get a little boring, but it'll be great for the teams to set up the car for the same types of track, instead of having to completely re-work the car for oval-street-oval-road-oval, etc. I would have liked to have seen Cleveland on the list, but I can live without it for now. Losing Australia was a bummer, but I bet they'll keep going with the V8's being the bigger draw the last couple of years.

Overall, I',m pretty please and look forward to 2009!

What is involved in the changeover? It would seem, on the surface, that routine maintenance between races would involve as much work. What are the diffferences?

[ChampUSfan]

If they can move it to September after Motegi, its going to be a points race.

It would be a great idea cause it may save a few $$$ for the teams. Cause if they are in USA, then go to Motegi, return to USA, go to Australia...expensive...

Hope they will find an answer to this prob soon, that's sad to see this race gone.

[ChampUSfan]

na i was kind of talking about other years with him, so when it came to this year homestead, i was like, here we go dan leads every lap again,
i didnt mind this year homestead race, i like it i was kind of got worry dan wolud lead everything again,

I usually like every race, despite if a driver leads the whole race. I AM INDY! and I don't mind if Dixon wins every races in a single season, I will still be a fan ;)

[The instant classic]

I usually like every race, despite if a driver leads the whole race. I AM INDY! and I don't mind if Dixon wins every races in a single season, I will still be a fan ;)

same way for me, i mean dixon is just winning everything, this year,
as they say when its your year its your year,

dixon is not my fave driver, but if he was i wolud he going crazy right now with this year hes having,

lol thats right you ARE INDY! :champion:

[ChampUSfan]

same way for me, i mean dixon is just winning everything, this year,
as they say when its your year its your year,

dixon is not my fave driver, but if he was i wolud he going crazy right now with this year hes having,

lol thats right you ARE INDY! :champion:

Hey man be careful, you don't even know who I am

By the way Dixon is a great driver

[The instant classic]

Hey man be careful, you don't even know who I am

By the way Dixon is a great driver

lol very true on that one,

but i agree dixon is great, the best part about him is i hear no talk about him going to nascar, hes won the indy 500 soon to be the champ, and no talk about him leaving i think that speaks great about him and hes love for indycar, :up:

[ChampUSfan]

lol very true on that one

lol man ;)

[ykiki]

It would be a great idea cause it may save a few $$$ for the teams. Cause if they are in USA, then go to Motegi, return to USA, go to Australia...expensive...

Hope they will find an answer to this prob soon, that's sad to see this race gone.

That's the longest gap in the calendar 9/19 (Motegi) - 10/11 (Miami). I'm thinking that's where they'll try to fill the gap.

Then again, wasn't there interest in Mexico City at one time?

[The instant classic]

That's the longest gap in the calendar 9/19 (Motegi) - 10/11 (Miami). I'm thinking that's where they'll try to fill the gap.

Then again, wasn't there interest in Mexico City at one time?

i heard the same in mexico city, but it did go around to surfers paradise and
laguna seca, but i guess that was just some more Rumors going around,

i agree thats along gap but rember motegi and miami are the last 2 races of the year, they dont need to worry about 10 other races or something,

[anthonyvop]

The homestead date change is good for the most part. the 1st race date always was competing against other major events in town, Doral, The Big tennis Tourney...ect. October is slower.
Only problem is that it is close to the NASCAR Finally in Novemeber.

[drewdawg727]

Why the hell are we STILL starting in April!?!??! > :(

[seppefan]

Dropping Surfers is an own goal as it is a proven winner with crowds only surpassed by the 500. It adds depth and markets for Honda and any other engine manufacturers looking at the series and sponsors.

Drop Richmond and add Mexico and a race in Brazil.

[philipbain]

Having six 1.5 mile ovals on the schedule is about five too many! The old champ car mix of the one mile ovals and super speedways works so much better for single seaters, 1.5 mile cookie cutter specials are just NASCAR fodder that create a hyper-dangerous environment for single seaters, particulary with the way the aero package is on these tracks. The 5 slots vacated by the under-attended NASCAR tracks could be taken by ex-Champ Car tracks. I was fully behind the merger, it had to be done, but looking at the 2009 schedule its still far too much IRL and not enough Champ Car.

[The instant classic]

Having six 1.5 mile ovals on the schedule is about five too many! The old champ car mix of the one mile ovals and super speedways works so much better for single seaters, 1.5 mile cookie cutter specials are just NASCAR fodder that create a hyper-dangerous environment for single seaters, particulary with the way the aero package is on these tracks. The 5 slots vacated by the under-attended NASCAR tracks could be taken by ex-Champ Car tracks. I was fully behind the merger, it had to be done, but looking at the 2009 schedule its still far too much IRL and not enough Champ Car.
i agree and disagree on stuff

i dont feel that its to much indycar and not enough champcar, i watch champcar way befor i started with indycar,but i dont feel that champcar is not getting much, i look at the first 2 races of the year its street tracks, and then you have 1.5-mile oval and 2.5-mile oval after that, i feel its a nice mix, i wolud have like to have seen some short tracks in there,

but again indycar was the one, that bought out champcar, they can go to any place they wish, even tho i wolud love to see some more champcar tracks, i think in time we may see some more tracks come out, to be honest i hated half the year cuz i felt it was to boring, but the more i watch my old tapes and think, the more i see this is going to take some time, the racing will get better, more tracks will come, and champcar will have its far share of tracks soon, right now TG is just feeling things out, and wants to get everyone on the same page again befor adding more tracks, and the new car is comming, everything will come it just takes time

[philipbain]

I say drop the cookies cutters and have 500 mile races around Michigan / California with Handford wings and 1000BHP engines - sound fanciful? I was exactly what they did in Champ Car just a fews years ago, I will never forget the Michigan race with Juan Montoya and Micheal Andretti constantly swapping the lead at speeds approaching 250mph lap after lap, the currently crop of Indycars are visibly slower by comparison and less spectacular for it yet conversely more dangerous because of the insistence that they must run on 1.5 mile tracks with too much downforce. So I say lets go back to the future!

[weeflyonthewall]

No Surfer's, Cleveland or Houston? I was hoping they'd drop one of the bull ring ovals (Richmond or Iowa) and Homestead. They should have stuck with 8 ovals max. Not good for open wheel road racing fans.

[jimispeed]

Well let's see......The most challenging "drivers road courses" are gone (Road America and Mont Tremblant), no Cleveland, no Surfers and.........

Six Oval Races in a Row!!!!!

I don't know.......not what I expected.

[bblocker68]

What is involved in the changeover? It would seem, on the surface, that routine maintenance between races would involve as much work. What are the diffferences?

It would if these cars were not sensitive to setup changes, but they are anything but that. Put the same setup on the car at two different times of the year and they will run differently. They may be in the same neighborhood, but not the same. If you run many of the same disciplines in a row, you're pretty much just adding to the setup. If you change from a speedway to a street course, you have to start from scratch with different body and suspension parts and throw on the old setup and see "if" it works. If it doesn't, you're working with a clean sheet and many long hours after practice is over. When you get no weekends off, that becomes a ton of extra work in a hurry.

[BenRoethig]

Having six 1.5 mile ovals on the schedule is about five too many! The old champ car mix of the one mile ovals and super speedways works so much better for single seaters,

Yeah, well Penske sold his tracks to ISC, so the 1.5 mile cookie cutters are all we can get.

[Rogelio]

Perhaps, the 2009 ICS schedule is just another blatent example of why the so-called "merger" was nothing but a mere capitulation by the Amigos. The ICS took the crown jewell, which is Long Beach, and added some Canadian races.

I do not know what the percentage of CC fans was that refused to accept the ICS, but my guess is that with the new schedule, the numbers will increase.

You can call me and the rest of us sore losers, but the fact remains that instead of mending bridges, TG is burning them. Cities/fans that had once been staunch supporters of Champ Car are left hanging out to dry for another year.

Of course, I am not expecting that every CC race be added to the ICS, but a minimal attempt would be best. I am a fan of oval, street and road course racing. A market like Mexico City and Surfers has a lot of potential. If we keep running in NASCAR's backyard, the series will surely struggle for dominance. Fortuantely, the ICS did not fall for Gossage's *****.

[Chris R]

It seems to me the main places that new schedule misses the boat in terms of taking advantage of viable CCWs events for 2009 is the race in Mexico City and Surfers. Otherwise, CCWS and the IRL overlapped in many markets - so why should the IRL switch to CCWS venues in order to stay in more or less the same market??

There are a couple of key US venues that would be nice to consider but they all have issues:
Cleveland = not exactly the most alive place economically, building pressure on the course and a pretty full slate of events in the eastern mid-west.

Road America - As much as people like the course - can you really see the current IRL car showing well there?? They can always go back when they have a more suitable car....

Laguna Seca - not really at CCWS mainstay in recent years and too close to Sears Point.

Portland - Financial struggles are well documented...

Denver - already DOA

Houston - Already DOA - could be revived but really not a traditional CCWS market anyway...

Mont Tremblant - not traditional CCWS - just a face saving race after losing Montreal

I know I am missing some - but that's the general idea....

[fugariracing]

Listening in to the PC, it felt like Terry was a politician...

It's hard to defend not adapting certain CC events. The thing he stressed more than anything is its a business in growth form right now, and there is still some hope of resurrecting the events in the future. Just after going away for one and now two years, that chance is always decreasing. More than likely, most of the events had contracts for 2009 that needed to be honored.

Homestead makes the least sense to me, an obvious loser in fan attendance and then put to the end of the year only a month ahead of NA$CAR?

I don't get it but then again few outside Indycar series circles do.

[MDS]

All of you who wanted the merger to end with Tony George in charge and are complaining about no Michigan, California, the abundance of cookie cutter tracks, leaving Nashville, ending the season at Homestead; stop complaining, you are getting exactly what you wanted, one series under the "Vision" of tony George.

This schedule is completely underwhelming , and shows the ineptness of league management. From the reports I've read they've pissed off SMI, Michigan International Speedway, Texas Motor Speedway and the Dover family of tracks. Its unbalanced, has some of the most physically demanding tracks back to back, starts far too late and fails to tap into several key markets.

Leaving off Mexico City and failing to secure races at either MIS or CMS are black eyes for the sport. Personally their are far too many parades on the schedule, Mid-Ohio, Infineon, Watkins Glen, Kansas, Chicago and Homestead.

Hopefully this is only a stop gap schedule to deal with existing contracts but for all you "I Am Indy" Crowd, this is the schedule you wanted from the man you wanted, so stop complaining.

[garyshell]

i agree and disagree on stuff

i dont feel that its to much indycar and not enough champcar, i watch champcar way befor i started with indycar,but i dont feel that champcar is not getting much, i look at the first 2 races of the year its street tracks, and then you have 1.5-mile oval and 2.5-mile oval after that, i feel its a nice mix, i wolud have like to have seen some short tracks in there,

but again indycar was the one, that bought out champcar, they can go to any place they wish, even tho i wolud love to see some more champcar tracks, i think in time we may see some more tracks come out, to be honest i hated half the year cuz i felt it was to boring, but the more i watch my old tapes and think, the more i see this is going to take some time, the racing will get better, more tracks will come, and champcar will have its far share of tracks soon, right now TG is just feeling things out, and wants to get everyone on the same page again befor adding more tracks, and the new car is comming, everything will come it just takes time

I wanted to send this as a private message, but you have them disabled in your profile. Man, please find the shift key and the period key. This sort of run on message is VERY difficult to read. It looks like a cell phone text message.

Gary

[The instant classic]

I wanted to send this as a private message, but you have them disabled in your profile. Man, plase find the shift key and the period key. This sort of run on message is VERY difficult to read. It looks like a cell phone text message.

Gary
lol sorry, yeah i was posting from my phone thats why,

[downtowndeco]

Perhaps, the 2009 ICS schedule is just another blatent example of why the so-called "merger" was nothing but a mere capitulation by the Amigos. The ICS took the crown jewell, which is Long Beach, and added some Canadian races.

I do not know what the percentage of CC fans was that refused to accept the ICS, but my guess is that with the new schedule, the numbers will increase.

You can call me and the rest of us sore losers, but the fact remains that instead of mending bridges, TG is burning them. Cities/fans that had once been staunch supporters of Champ Car are left hanging out to dry for another year.

Of course, I am not expecting that every CC race be added to the ICS, but a minimal attempt would be best. I am a fan of oval, street and road course racing. A market like Mexico City and Surfers has a lot of potential. If we keep running in NASCAR's backyard, the series will surely struggle for dominance. Fortuantely, the ICS did not fall for Gossage's bullsh*t.

Or you could look at it another way. If the IRL hadn't picked up the few CCWS races it did NONE of CC's races would be run in 08 or 09. CCWS was going bankrupt. Be glad that a few of the races made it to the IRL schedule.

[Rogelio]

A major positive regarding the 2009 schedule is the diversity of tracks. TG certainly realizes that a diverse venue is the key to the ICS success. The breaks between races is another plus, even though I dislike the entire month off before Indy (oh well).

After watching the ICS video with Terry Angstadt, in which he defends the schedule and the markets, I realize he is contradicting himself. Years ago, TG tried to take Portland and failed. Now that CC no longer exist, it is not on the schedule. Politics aside, Portland is a viable market because NASCAR is not there. And the same can be said for Mexico City and Australia (if added).

I like oval racing but can 3 oval races that are a mile or less be called oval racing for these high powered machines? The other six oval races are a 1 1/2, which in my opinion is suitable for OWR. How about a return to Michigan or California?

CC may be dead, but TG and ICS certainly leave a lot to be desired.

Finally, why in the heck are we even bothering with Homestead? Our season started there before an empty house, yet ICS wants to return there.

[MDS]

I will be the first to agree that there are many really worthwhile tracks, from a racing standpoint, not on the schedule. But as IC has pointed out in a number of threads here, the series can not exist on charity and somebody's deep pockets. CC proved that. The venues must make sense from an economic standpoint for ALL parties concerned. Throw in that there were existing contracts to be honored and this schedule is the result.


Take another look at the middle of that schedule and tell me that deep pockets are subsdizing the IRL at places like Chicago, Kansas, Mid-Ohio and others.

I fail to see where this schedule could be more dull and unimaginative. Getting rid of Nashville for Tornoto was the only good move they made, and Michael Andretti essentially forced their hand on that.

[AussieV8]

That's the longest gap in the calendar 9/19 (Motegi) - 10/11 (Miami). I'm thinking that's where they'll try to fill the gap.

Then again, wasn't there interest in Mexico City at one time?

It wouldn't suprise me if there's issues with the V8 Supercars fitting into this slot. The Surfers event has been a double header weekend for a number of years now with both V8 Supercar and Champ Car points races.

Late September is right between the Phillip Island 500 and the Bathurst 1000, the two biggest races on the calendar for the V8's. Traditionally, there are no sprint rounds between the two endurance races. Therefore, if the IRL is trying to get a late September date (as the hole in the schedule might suggest), I think there are going to be problems.

Considering they announced that the event had been secured for 6 years earlier this year (http://www.indy.com.au/newsroom/article_245/index.htm), it would be very poor form by the IRL to completely drop it. However, I could see it as a late October non-points event again next year if there is a clash between the V8's and the IRL over the date.

[FormerFF]

They gotta find a place for Surfers. I understand that they can't just drop some of the venues that they have been running for years to embrace some of the old Champ Car events, but Surfers is a must. I see there's still a possibility, let's hope it happens.

[nigelred5]

I've got to believe that existing contracts dictated most of the venues for 09. I suspect questions revolving around the TV contract may have influenced the schedule as well. While it's a little much for the fans having six ovals in a row, that has to be easier for the teams and preparation week to week. I'd love to see a F1 style schedule racing every other week. Hopefully Surfers will be resolved and be added to the fall with Motegi. I believe the gaping hole in the schedule is designed to give them a big window for their date to coincide with the Supercars schedule. I'd love to see Mexico city slot in there as well but What about MARCH?? Nascar is what, seven races into their season and F1 is probably 3 races in before they start.? I guess they don't want to go head to head with the March spring Breakers in Florida and March is probably out for Las Vegas and Phoenix as possibilities due to NASCAR races, so what other warm weather venues would you look at? Mexico or Houston possibly? Lots of negatives to starting the season in either. I believe Surfers will get added, however I'm just upset to not see places like Cleveland and Road America.

[speeddurango]

Now firstly I'm kind of surprised not seeing them even mentioning about a race at Mexico, and just like most of you guys, I'm fairly disappointed by the schedule, but then again, I'm actually thinking possibly Indycar has their own reasons for doing so.

So far we have seen the season going reasonably well and most of the figures are looking good, but neither was it a big step from the past, the numbers are all up by a slight bit, not too much. So what am I thinking is, that Indycar is just trying to take small but steady steps to make things happen, I've heard them saying a prospective 20 race schedule for the year 2011 and the new chassis would only come in 2011 too, I'm guessing they're just not doing anything in a big hurry but trying to set up a good fundamental for the long term perspect.

[AussieV8]

If they expand to a 20 race schedule in 2010 (which IMHO is a bit doubtful), then it wouldn't surpise me if they just leave surfers where it is as a non championship race next year, and then include it in 2010 on 24 October with the final round in the US the week after (like back in the CART days).

As for Homestead, I think it will be a spectacular flop this year. Being so close to the Sprint Cup finale, who in their right mind thinks that Homestead will get anybody in the stands for the IRL race? I reckon Homestead will be gone after next year unless a miracle happens.

IMHO the Las Vegas oval would have been a better place to finish the season, even if it is just a cookie cutter oval. Just get rid of one of the other similar tracks and problem solved.

I still think the best way to finish the season is a 500 mile race on a super speedway like CART did at California in the late 90's.

[gofastandwynn]

Take another look at the middle of that schedule and tell me that deep pockets are subsdizing the IRL at places like Chicago, Kansas, Mid-Ohio and others.

I fail to see where this schedule could be more dull and unimaginative. Getting rid of Nashville for Tornoto was the only good move they made, and Michael Andretti essentially forced their hand on that.

Well, sponsors for one (Peak at Chicagoland for example), as well as the season ticket package for the speedway, in addition the lower costs of running at at permeant facility. It both the League & the Speedway can make money on it then it will stay, and that what cleveland has not been able to do for a long time.

Also remember that a number of these events were locked in with 3 year deals that were signed before the buyout/merger ever happened, then you get to the point where there are only so many weekends that you can run at some locations. The was just no room for Cleveland & New Hampshire with the contracted race dates & weeks off the teams say they need. Just saying "just get ride of this track & that track" isn't realistic.

Another thing to remember about Vegas is the rumored future 2nd fall cup date that Bruton Smith will more from New Hampshire to Las Vegas. So lets say the IRL runs Vegas next year, then they add a fall cup race in 2010 and the IRL race would come off the schedule as quickly as it got on, much like what happened to the 2nd Texas race. Doesn't make much sense.

[F1boat]

I think that the shedule is OK, although I think that ovals should dominate indy Car racing. i hope that when they are on road courses, they will make more double weekends with the ALMS.

[jimispeed]

No Cleveland, Surfers, Road America, Portland. Former Champcar races, just Toronto and Long Beach?

Some Unification!!

Fool me once......

[timshag]

Let's get Elk Lake
Surfers should be a no brainer....biggest event on the calendar
Mexico City....another huge event we need back


I am really surprised we're happy with some events that draw 30,000 and look away from ones that draw 100s of thousonds.

Also, Elk Lake is the best road course available to IndyCar. Why that didn't make it I doin't understand.

[evo5_mat]

Personal we all knew that ovals were going to dominate, its TG series and what the series been based on for all these years Ovals!!.

Sadly i think we should had a better mix from the 90's, of street, road courses, few super speedways, and small percentage of 1.5 mile ovals.

This is what attracted fans to the tracks as we can see now ovals have very few spectators while if we see street/road courses throughout the world we witness bigger crowds because transport easier to the track, there seem to be a fascination with street tracks, while road courses its more the historic heritage etc etc

All im thinking is where the new fan going to come from or goto the track, surely we would have seen bigger crowds throughout this season on ovals due to the number of teams/drivers/cars that come from champcar, which clearly this hasnt happened.
To the point we are now getting rid of some of the well supported fan tracks like surfers, cleveland road america etc and alienating them fans who are willing to travel to a circuit.

[chuck34]

Some of you have got to get over this. Quit belly aching about the fact that this isn't a unification. It isn't, OK! Who cares? CC went bankrupt, they are done, kaput, over, never to be heard from again. I know this isn't the PC thing to say, but it is the truth.

IndyCar stepped in and saved a couple of their economically viable races Long Beach and Surfers. Surfers has scheduling issues for this year and next, but I would guess that next year will probably be like this year, a non-points race.

CC couldn't make places like Portland, Cleveland, Mt. Tremblant, Houston, etc. work economically. I liked these places, but they don't make any money. Is TG supposed to just keep hemeraging money to make the couple hundered (maybe?) ChampCar fans happy?

I'm not too happy with the schedule either. What happend to traditional tracks like Phoenix, and Michigan? But I know the realities of today.

Get over it. The war is over. Watch what you have. If you don't like it there are other other series to watch. I hear that the F1 owners are forming a new group. Maybe you'll get your wish and they will call it Championship Auto Racing Teams. Then will you be happy?

[garyshell]

No Cleveland, Surfers, Road America, Portland. Former Champcar races, just Toronto and Long Beach?

Some Unification!!

Fool me once......


Hmmmm, how quickly you forget. What about:

St. Pete
Indy
Milwaukee
Texas
Edmonton
Mid Ohio
Belle Isle

Weren't all of those formerly on the Cart/ChampCar schedule?

Gary

[garyshell]

CC went bankrupt,

<snip>

Get over it. The war is over. Watch what you have. If you don't like it there are other other series to watch.

First, no they didn't. CART did but ChampCar did not.

Second, I agree with the "Get over it. The war is over." part 100%!

Gary

[F1boat]

Less than 50% ovals would be treachery to the loyal IRL fans who supported the series despite the bashings of the CC fanatics. TG should please the IRL fans and supporters, not the ones who bashed his series. To respect them, yes, to have some former CART races yes, but to betray the IRL, hell no.

[downtowndeco]

First, no they didn't. CART did but ChampCar did not.

Second, I agree with the "Get over it. The war is over." part 100%!

Gary

I don't mean to nit pick and probably am wrong on this but didn't CCWS have a bankruptcy auction?

[call_me_andrew]

Sadly i think we should had a better mix from the 90's, of street, road courses, few super speedways, and small percentage of 1.5 mile ovals.

This is what attracted fans to the tracks as we can see now ovals have very few spectators while if we see street/road courses throughout the world we witness bigger crowds because transport easier to the track, there seem to be a fascination with street tracks, while road courses its more the historic heritage etc etc

The mix of the 90's didn't attract fans. CART wasn't growing before the split. It hit a peak of interest when Nigel Mansell made the switch from Formula 1 and brought some F1 fans with him. The series didn't really grow after that, but it didn't get smaller. Once the split came things only went downhill.

As far as 2009 goes, my calender was better.

[Spiderman]

Less than 50% ovals would be treachery to the loyal IRL fans who supported the series despite the bashings of the CC fanatics. TG should please the IRL fans and supporters, not the ones who bashed his series. To respect them, yes, to have some former CART races yes, but to betray the IRL, hell no.

Even if you add the loyal CCWS-fans and the loyal IRL-fans together the series is still far away from being successful.

[BenRoethig]

Even if you add the loyal CCWS-fans and the loyal IRL-fans together the series is still far away from being successful.

I'm more interested in getting back the casual fans who left.

[Rogelio]

I'm more interested in getting back the casual fans who left.

I agree with you that in losing the "casual fan" is a very big deal. Those cities who had become accustomed to CART/CC races are now left with nothing. Or wait till next year. Next years scheudle essentially equals the loss of those fans and markets. Surely, the ICS has contracts, financial obligations, and lack of resources to run 'every' CC race. But, I gain the sense that the ICS could care less about those markets and the fans.

TG has his strategy and it does not include placating the former CC community. And that is a big mistake because those fans need to be included in the ICS fan base.

For 20 years I was a huge CART/CC fan and I am trying to be a ICS fan. However, now, I sit on the fence and feel like throwing in the towell. My guess is that the "casual fan" threw in the towell months ago. In my opinion, the 2009 schedule does not reassure those cities/fans that the ICS has any desire to accomodate their needs.

I realize that the ICS is not Champ Car, but TG and the ICS need to start trying to win over those fans and markets.

[Miatanut]

My guess is that the "casual fan" threw in the towell months ago.

The casual fan threw in the towel years ago.

We will continue to see the revolving door of weak venues which are no threat to the main event.

[MDS]

We will continue to see the revolving door of weak venues which are no threat to the main event.

Exactly, After Indy and Long Beach what is the third "marquee event?" Texas? Toronto? Surfers? Iowa?

This lack of vison is exactly why so many people fought so hard against Tony George getting control of all of American Open Wheel. Yes there was some ego involved but the fact that almost no CART teams showed at Indy 1996 was a huge vote of no-confidence in TG by men who had known him for years. The fact everyone is under one roof doesn't mean they agree with him now, they're just rolling over because they can't outspend him.

[philipbain]

Hmmmm, how quickly you forget. What about:

St. Pete
Indy
Milwaukee
Texas
Edmonton
Mid Ohio
Belle Isle

Weren't all of those formerly on the Cart/ChampCar schedule?

Gary

Interestingly of those listed only one featured on the Champ Car schedule last season, meaning they had already crossed over to IRL (a kind way of saying nicked). Also Texas is only very technically and from a certain view it isnt a former Champ Car track as they never actually raced there, the cars were just too damn fast for the place!!

[Wilf]

Exactly, After Indy and Long Beach what is the third "marquee event?" Texas? Toronto? Surfers? Iowa?

This lack of vison is exactly why so many people fought so hard against Tony George getting control of all of American Open Wheel. Yes there was some ego involved but the fact that almost no CART teams showed at Indy 1996 was a huge vote of no-confidence in TG by men who had known him for years. The fact everyone is under one roof doesn't mean they agree with him now, they're just rolling over because they can't outspend him.

Or

Inspite of having all the teams, all the cars and all the stars they couldn't put together a better package.

Regarding weak venues, is it not the responsibility of the promoter/track operator to make it a marquee event.

I can't understand why TG's vision is so hard to understand:

1. Maintain the Indianapolis 500 as the ultimate open wheel event in the US.
2. Provide the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s).
3. Maintain costs at a reasonable level so more teams can participate.

I really believe he could care less when and where the IndyCars race so long as the majority of the races are on ovals. He is letting his company's officers make business decisions regarding the schedule. Sentiment doesn't carry much weight on a P & L statement or calendar. If it makes business sense(date and finances), it will be on the schedule.

[libra65]

No Surfers????????? No Cleveland??????????? and theY finish in Homestead-Miami during hurricane season?????????? What idiot came up with this plan?

I JUST DON'T GET IT.

[Miatanut]

I can't understand why TG's vision is so hard to understand:

1. Maintain the Indianapolis 500 as the ultimate open wheel event in the US.
2. Provide the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s).
3. Maintain costs at a reasonable level so more teams can participate.

It's hard to understand because it keeps changing, but if it's as you describe, it has failed at #2 (half or more empty bleachers at all the other events) and #3 (only three teams have enough sponsorship to cover the costs of competition.

[MDS]

I can't understand why TG's vision is so hard to understand:

It's hard to understand because it keeps changing.

Originally it was:

1. More American drivers
1995 6 American drivers in the top 10
2008 3 American drivers in the top 10

2. More ovals
1999 9 ovals
2008 10 ovals

3. Provide a stepping stone from USAC to the Indy 500
There is one USAC driver in the series who just happened to marry the boss's daughter.

4. Lower costs
With the deminished rating there is actually less ROI than there was in 1995 and therefore a higher cost, even with inflation factored in.

Now lets go through your list.

1. Maintain the Indianapolis 500 as the ultimate open wheel event in the US.
The Indy 500 used to be the ultimate racing event in the country. Now its the Daytona 500 routinely doubles its ratings.The 500 hasn't been the best attended race at the speedway in years.

2. Provide the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s).
Ratings and attendance are down across the board from 1995. So he failed at that one too.

3. Maintain costs at a reasonable level so more teams can participate.
Uhm, while there are roughly the same amount of full time teams the depth still isn't there.


I really believe he could care less when and where the IndyCars race so long as the majority of the races are on ovals.

So the guy with 100 percent control of AOWR doesn't care where it races. I know when anyone hires a CEO they always ask "Hey, find me the guy who could care less about a major aspect of our business and hire that guy. Also, make sure he set out a list of goals and failed at every single one of them and has only succeeded up until this point based on a bottomless pit of money given to him by insanely loyal people who don't care about the quality of the product. That's the guy we need to run this company"

Tony George needs to care passionately about all aspects of the sport, or else he needs to get out of the way, the faster the better.

[garyshell]

Surely, the ICS has contracts, financial obligations, and lack of resources to run 'every' CC race. But, I gain the sense that the ICS could care less about those markets and the fans.

How do you draw the conclusion that the ICS could care less, given as you said the existing contracts, financial obligations and lack of resources? With those constraints, what is it that you expect them to do to show they care???


I realize that the ICS is not Champ Car, but TG and the ICS need to start trying to win over those fans and markets.

Again, given the constraints that you spelled out, what do you want them to do? Yeah I too, would like to see a few more of the old CART/Champ car tracks but the list I posted the other day does show that a lot of them are on the schedule it is NOT just Long Beach and Edmonton. I would like to see RA and Cleveland added for sure. But I realize the REALITY of the situation that NEITHER of these venues has a viable BUSINESS PLAN on the table to make it work. And like it or not from this point on, it will be business plans that rule the decisions. Not what you, I and other Internet fans would like to see happen.

Gary

[garyshell]

Interestingly of those listed only one featured on the Champ Car schedule last season, meaning they had already crossed over to IRL (a kind way of saying nicked). Also Texas is only very technically and from a certain view it isnt a former Champ Car track as they never actually raced there, the cars were just too damn fast for the place!!

One man's "nicked" is another man's "abandoned". But my point was that those of us who long for the glory days of CART, and I proudly include myself in those ranks, are seeing a lot of familiar tracks.

You are right about Texas, it is only there on a technicality.

Gary

[Rogelio]

How do you draw the conclusion that the ICS could care less, given as you said the existing contracts, financial obligations and lack of resources? With those constraints, what is it that you expect them to do to show they care???



Again, given the constraints that you spelled out, what do you want them to do? Yeah I too, would like to see a few more of the old CART/Champ car tracks but the list I posted the other day does show that a lot of them are on the schedule it is NOT just Long Beach and Edmonton. I would like to see RA and Cleveland added for sure. But I realize the REALITY of the situation that NEITHER of these venues has a viable BUSINESS PLAN on the table to make it work. And like it or not from this point on, it will be business plans that rule the decisions. Not what you, I and other Internet fans would like to see happen.

Gary

First, I know that I am contradicting myself, along with my expectations. Yet, my contradictions are no different than Terry Angstadt speaking on behalf of the ICS and the 2009 schuedule. The ICS, along with TG, is looking out for their own personal business interests (just like any other business). TG wanted nothing more than for the Champ Car series to fold and it did. Now, that it is out of the way, all he cares about is attracting the races he desires. Again, as we all know, this was not a merger, but a mere capitulation by some of the Amigos who chose not to throw theire money away anymore. TG does not care about the needs of the former Champ Car community and he probably should not. He won the war of attrition. Had Champ Car won, we would have taken the Indy 500 and all the other races could go to hell in a hand basket. Many of those races (Portland and Mexico City) may have been money losers. However, the reason they began to lose money was becasue of many factors (split, lack of promotion, lack of revenue). The "unified" series has a lot of potential and in my opinion, we should do our best to tap into the markets rather than shy away. Therefore, TG could care less about accomodating the former races of CC on the 2009 schedule.

Second, I personally believe that there has been a serious lack of communication with the CC fan base regarding this so-called "merger". I am still on-board because I love open-wheel racing, but the reality is that many did not follow along. Many were probably sickened by KK's insincere bullsh*t. While a loathe Forsythe for not bringing PT with him to the ICS, I also admire him for sticking to his anti-TG beliefs. This might be farfetched, but it would not be asking much for a little communication with the former CC fan base that some of their races might be included in the future (yet I know that Cleveland and Surfers are on the table). I know that that is a ridculous concept but as the months go by, I am more convinced that TG has no vision and that perhaps the team owners were right in not dealing with his 1996 Indy 500.

Personally, I firmly believe that the 2009 schedule is a simple reflection of TG narrow minded philosophy regarding AOWR. As another poster wrote, why the heck are racing at Homestead during hurricane season? There are many questions that need to be answered and for this OWR fan, I am starting to question TG goals more so than I did in the past.

[garyshell]

First, I know that I am contradicting myself, along with my expectations. Yet, my contradictions are no different than Terry Angstadt speaking on behalf of the ICS and the 2009 schuedule. The ICS, along with TG, is looking out for their own personal business interests (just like any other business). TG wanted nothing more than for the Champ Car series to fold and it did. Now, that it is out of the way, all he cares about is attracting the races he desires. Again, as we all know, this was not a merger, but a mere capitulation by some of the Amigos who chose not to throw theire money away anymore. TG does not care about the needs of the former Champ Car community and he probably should not. He won the war of attrition. Had Champ Car won, we would have taken the Indy 500 and all the other races could go to hell in a hand basket. Many of those races (Portland and Mexico City) may have been money losers. However, the reason they began to lose money was becasue of many factors (split, lack of promotion, lack of revenue). The "unified" series has a lot of potential and in my opinion, we should do our best to tap into the markets rather than shy away. Therefore, TG could care less about accomodating the former races of CC on the 2009 schedule.

Second, I personally believe that there has been a serious lack of communication with the CC fan base regarding this so-called "merger". I am still on-board because I love open-wheel racing, but the reality is that many did not follow along. Many were probably sickened by KK's insincere bullsh*t. While a loathe Forsythe for not bringing PT with him to the ICS, I also admire him for sticking to his anti-TG beliefs. This might be farfetched, but it would not be asking much for a little communication with the former CC fan base that some of their races might be included in the future (yet I know that Cleveland and Surfers are on the table). I know that that is a ridculous concept but as the months go by, I am more convinced that TG has no vision and that perhaps the team owners were right in not dealing with his 1996 Indy 500.

Personally, I firmly believe that the 2009 schedule is a simple reflection of TG narrow minded philosophy regarding AOWR. As another poster wrote, why the heck are racing at Homestead during hurricane season? There are many questions that need to be answered and for this OWR fan, I am starting to question TG goals more so than I did in the past.


I am still waiting for the BUSINESS PLAN for Portland and Mexico city that you think need to be on the schedule.

You clearly laid out the business constraints in your first message and then proceeded to ignore them. Why?

I too, would like to see those markets tapped. But that means a PROMOTER must step up and present a proposal. What promoter is willing to risk backing Portland and Mexico City right now? The ICS is not going to make the same mistakes CART and ChampCar did with self promotion.

RE: Communications, how about something concrete. This nebulous "I want more communications with the CCWS fans" concept, does not tell us what it is you expect. What specifically do you want them to do? Do you want a personal phone call from the ICS front office, a letter in your mail box? How do you propose this communications be accomplished?

I think TG's goals are no different than they ever were. He wants to preserve his own fifedom. Period. I didn't like it then. I don't like it now. But it is the only game in town.

Gary

[Wilf]

It's hard to understand because it keeps changing.

Originally it was:

1. More American drivers
1995 6 American drivers in the top 10
2008 3 American drivers in the top 10

2. More ovals
1999 9 ovals
2008 10 ovals

3. Provide a stepping stone from USAC to the Indy 500
There is one USAC driver in the series who just happened to marry the boss's daughter.

4. Lower costs
With the deminished rating there is actually less ROI than there was in 1995 and therefore a higher cost, even with inflation factored in.

Now lets go through your list.

1. Maintain the Indianapolis 500 as the ultimate open wheel event in the US.
The Indy 500 used to be the ultimate racing event in the country. Now its the Daytona 500 routinely doubles its ratings.The 500 hasn't been the best attended race at the speedway in years.

2. Provide the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s).
Ratings and attendance are down across the board from 1995. So he failed at that one too.

3. Maintain costs at a reasonable level so more teams can participate.
Uhm, while there are roughly the same amount of full time teams the depth still isn't there.



So the guy with 100 percent control of AOWR doesn't care where it races. I know when anyone hires a CEO they always ask "Hey, find me the guy who could care less about a major aspect of our business and hire that guy. Also, make sure he set out a list of goals and failed at every single one of them and has only succeeded up until this point based on a bottomless pit of money given to him by insanely loyal people who don't care about the quality of the product. That's the guy we need to run this company"

Tony George needs to care passionately about all aspects of the sport, or else he needs to get out of the way, the faster the better.

Wow! there is a lot to your post. let's go back to the begining. From the July 8, 1994 press release.

George noted that several tracks have signed letters of intent to become charter members of the 1996 series, and several more are expected in upcoming weeks. "We are more concerned about he quality of the race promoters for 1996 than we are in quantity," said George. He noted that while the new league is interested in the majority of its events being held on oval tracks, road course will be on the 1996 schedule.

Absent from the news release was anything about american drivers, or stepping stone from USAC to Indy. I will continue to look, but I don't recall ever seeing a statement from TG saying that was his goal. I do recall reading TG's responses to questions about those issues being addressed through the creation of the league. There is a difference between stating your goals and saying that those issues will be favorably affected.

TG hired Terry Angstadt to be president of the commercial division and he tasked him to produce a schedule which meets the goals of the corporation.

You won't find anyone more intensly interested in the success of the Indianpolis 500. For that to occur, the IRL must also succeed.

Addressing your scorecard specifically:

The 500 hasn't been the best attended race at the speedway in years.
Check a credible souce for your attendance. Remember, the infield is not openned for the brickyard. There are 20K to 50K more people at the Indianapolis 500 each year. Regardless of those numbers, you are comparing apples and oranges because the race to which you are referring is not an open wheel race. The Indianapolis is still the premier open wheel race in the United States.


Ratings and attendance are down across the board from 1995. So he failed at that one too. I've long ago sworn off debating ratings, I'll leave that to people understand them. As far as providing the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s) he has succeeded.


Uhm, while there are roughly the same amount of full time teams the depth still isn't there. I don't believe you will find many credible sources who would say the IRL has not maintained costs at a reasonable level so more teams can participate. I think you give the current teams too little credit when it comes to depth. There have been eight different winners this year.

Is everything perfect? Far from it. Is AOWR heading in the right direction. One year is too short a period to claim as a trend, but there is positive momentum.

[Rogelio]

There are promoters who are willing to invest money in those races. I can not prove it, nor can you, but my educated guess is that TG does not care to "risk" adding those races. Surely, it is his business and a business that is quickly proving to be a failure among many.

My nebulous comment regarding the ICS and the former CC fans is simple. Many CC fans "probably" (since I can not prove it) failed to follow along with the so-called "merger." That is an important market base that the ICS is losing. Surely, I do not expect a phone call. However, I could lie and say that they called me, but then you would ask me to prove it. Is that ICS doing enough to market itself?

TG game may be the only game in town, but that does not mean I or others have to follow along. I will follow along, because I care about OWR. I will complain because I care. If TG vision goes against my beliefs, I like others, will be the first to complain.

[DavePI2]

well i like it except for one exception. Do we really need 4 street courses. Take away detroit and find a way for michigan if you must have a race in michigan(I happen to love mis myself) or if it must be a roadcourse figure out a way to send it to cleveland. An occasional streetrace is nice but not 4. Road America would be a nice replacement of Detroit also. I also read an interesting idea at alms website also. Why not Sebring? I bet it would draw a lot better crowd then homestead and be a better race also.

david

[jimispeed]

So the theme on this forum seems to be, "we get what we get and we don't throw a fit"!!

I'm not happy until this series resembles more of what CART's hayday looked like!!

There are some great tracks out there that are a racers dream!

Those are the tracks I truly enjoy! Although without the right car/engine formula it's all for not!!

What happened with "The Vanderbilt Cup" trophy TG said he would like to pay tribute to? Is he really going to embrace any of this??


When he spoke after the so callled "merger", at the press conference, Tony George seemed to embrace what assets Champcar had to strengthen Indycar, and bring back open wheel to it's glory. Of course there is alot of work to be done in other areas too, but I'm speaking of the great courses, car design, turbo's, and the legacy that should be embedded into Indycar.

People may disagree, but when he bought CART/Champcar, he's now holding its heart.

[MDS]

I've long ago sworn off debating ratings, I'll leave that to people understand them. As far as providing the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s) he has succeeded.

Wait, you don't "Understand ratings" but your confident there is "More exposure for teams. Yeah, sure. The ratings have been sliced in half, crowds are down, they're racing in tiny markets like Richmond and Iowa and somehow thats better than California and Michigan?

[Wilf]

Wait, you don't "Understand ratings" but your confident there is "More exposure for teams. Yeah, sure. The ratings have been sliced in half, crowds are down, they're racing in tiny markets like Richmond and Iowa and somehow thats better than California and Michigan?
I find it hard to believe the ratings have been sliced in half since 1996, but like I said, I'll leave ratings arguments to those who understand them. The object of a schedule for races outside of the Indianapolis 500 is to provide the teams that participate in the Indianapolis 500 with a schedule of races which owners can use to justify the expense of building/buying a car for Indianapolis as well as provide more exposure for the teams' sponsor(s).

Would you not agree there is a schedule of races other than the Indianapolis 500?

Don't the car owners use their Indianapolis style cars in those races?

And fianally, do the teams and their sponsors gain additional exposure by participating in those races?

Those are the reasons to have a schedule beyond the Indianapolis 500.

I'll let the inclusion or exclusion of individual races be debated by people much more knowledgeable than me.

As I said before: Is everything perfect? Far from it. Is AOWR heading in the right direction. One year is too short a period to claim as a trend, but there is positive momentum.

[indycool]

IMO, there are some here who do not understand what goes into formulating a schedule.

You hafta have a race track and promoter, sanctioning body and TV agree on a date and time that is based on where it fits or doesn't fit for everybody. It needs to be places sponsors and teams want to go to be attractive. What the event is up against, both locally and on TV, must be considered (witness CC's Road America date opposite the EAA convention in Oshkosh one year). And the promoter and the sanctioning body must strike a bargain on fee. Plus all the little things.

It MUST work financially. Why aren't more CC tracks on this schedule? Many reasons: A) Several were underwritten by KK, GF or CC itself and lost money; B) No doubt those in the know have REAL attendance figures on 'em.

Michigan and Phoenix? IMO, the IRL would like to run both. They are ISC tracks, NASCAR scheduling gets in the way of Phoenix after ISC bought it and ruined the idea and heritage of the Copper World Classic and the Indy cars there. Michigan, it would seem, can't strike a bargain with the IRL and vice versa.

Portland, Cleveland, Houston? No money. Mexico City? Who knows if there's even a promoter these days? Mont Tremblant? Is it as good as Edmonton and Toronto? Surfers? The series is going there in a couple months, but date for 2009 is a question mark. Road America? The way CART and CC dealt with that track all those years, it may wish to take a sabbatical or put someone else at risk, like a track rental, and the IRL won't go for that.

This is a work in progress and will be for some time in the future. The ills of a 12-year split aren't going to get cured in six months. The CC teams got a generous deal on equipment to stay whole and stay in the sport when this took place. That's why you still see Wilson, Rahal, Junqueira, etc., still racing.

Peace.

[garyshell]

There are promoters who are willing to invest money in those races. I can not prove it, nor can you, but my educated guess is that TG does not care to "risk" adding those races. Surely, it is his business and a business that is quickly proving to be a failure among many.

My nebulous comment regarding the ICS and the former CC fans is simple. Many CC fans "probably" (since I can not prove it) failed to follow along with the so-called "merger." That is an important market base that the ICS is losing. Surely, I do not expect a phone call. However, I could lie and say that they called me, but then you would ask me to prove it. Is that ICS doing enough to market itself?

TG game may be the only game in town, but that does not mean I or others have to follow along. I will follow along, because I care about OWR. I will complain because I care. If TG vision goes against my beliefs, I like others, will be the first to complain.


Who are these promoters? What "risk" would there be to add these races if TG is not the promoter and the dates don't conflict with existing contracts that the ICS has? What would TG have to lose?

You still have not said what you expect for the ICS to do to communicate with this disenfranchised consumer base from the CCWS ranks. You said they need to improve the communications with this group. I asked how they could do this. You still have not answered the "how". You only restated that they haven't communicated. I am not sure what it is you expect them to do? Is there some CCWS mailing list that they should buy. Should they go to the CCF forum and post messages?

I too will follow along. I too will complain when "king George" makes stupid moves. But I will also question when some of my brethren in the former CART/Champ Car fan base make demands that are untenable.

Gary

[garyshell]

So the theme on this forum seems to be, "we get what we get and we don't throw a fit"!!

I'm not happy until this series resembles more of what CART's hayday looked like!!

There are some great tracks out there that are a racers dream!

Those are the tracks I truly enjoy! Although without the right car/engine formula it's all for not!!

What happened with "The Vanderbilt Cup" trophy TG said he would like to pay tribute to? Is he really going to embrace any of this??


When he spoke after the so callled "merger", at the press conference, Tony George seemed to embrace what assets Champcar had to strengthen Indycar, and bring back open wheel to it's glory. Of course there is alot of work to be done in other areas too, but I'm speaking of the great courses, car design, turbo's, and the legacy that should be embedded into Indycar.

People may disagree, but when he bought CART/Champcar, he's now holding its heart.

The theme is more "we get what we get, but don't throw a fit asking for something that isn't available". Where are the promoters for these tracks you want to add? Where are the business plans for a VIABLE return on investment. Oh, no did I really say that dirty phrase "return on investment"? Yep, I sure as hell did. Without it, we go back to series promoted races and we all know where THAT led us don't we? This sport is a BUSINESS first and foremost. The sooner you realize that the sooner you will begin to understand the rationale behind the process that decides which tracks get dates. Many of the ones on the schedule have existing contracts. The new ones added had real, viable plans where it was possible for a promoter to make money. The rest of the ones we all want, and trust me I want them too, places like RA and Cleveland, just don't have a viable plan in place that will make money.

Do you really think TG would not want Cleveland on the schedule if it could be done without affecting existing contracts and if it could be done while turning a profit? Why would he NOT want it? What possible reason could he have to not want one of the year in and year out almost universally acclaimed most exciting street/road races in the US?

Gary

[jimispeed]

The theme is more "we get what we get, but don't throw a fit asking for something that isn't available". Where are the promoters for these tracks you want to add? Where are the business plans for a VIABLE return on investment. Oh, no did I really say that dirty phrase "return on investment"? Yep, I sure as hell did. Without it, we go back to series promoted races and we all know where THAT led us don't we? This sport is a BUSINESS first and foremost. The sooner you realize that the sooner you will begin to understand the rationale behind the process that decides which tracks get dates. Many of the ones on the schedule have existing contracts. The new ones added had real, viable plans where it was possible for a promoter to make money. The rest of the ones we all want, and trust me I want them too, places like RA and Cleveland, just don't have a viable plan in place that will make money.

Do you really think TG would not want Cleveland on the schedule if it could be done without affecting existing contracts and if it could be done while turning a profit? Why would he NOT want it? What possible reason could he have to not want one of the year in and year out almost universally acclaimed most exciting street/road races in the US?

Gary



What a shame that the tracks favored most by the drivers can't get their act together!!

Isn't there anything that Indycar can do to make it more desirable for these organizations??

[Cart750hp]

IMO, there are some here who do not understand what goes into formulating a schedule.

You hafta have a race track and promoter, sanctioning body and TV agree on a date and time that is based on where it fits or doesn't fit for everybody. It needs to be places sponsors and teams want to go to be attractive. What the event is up against, both locally and on TV, must be considered (witness CC's Road America date opposite the EAA convention in Oshkosh one year). And the promoter and the sanctioning body must strike a bargain on fee. Plus all the little things.

It MUST work financially. Why aren't more CC tracks on this schedule? Many reasons: A) Several were underwritten by KK, GF or CC itself and lost money; B) No doubt those in the know have REAL attendance figures on 'em.

Michigan and Phoenix? IMO, the IRL would like to run both. They are ISC tracks, NASCAR scheduling gets in the way of Phoenix after ISC bought it and ruined the idea and heritage of the Copper World Classic and the Indy cars there. Michigan, it would seem, can't strike a bargain with the IRL and vice versa.

Portland, Cleveland, Houston? No money. Mexico City? Who knows if there's even a promoter these days? Mont Tremblant? Is it as good as Edmonton and Toronto? Surfers? The series is going there in a couple months, but date for 2009 is a question mark. Road America? The way CART and CC dealt with that track all those years, it may wish to take a sabbatical or put someone else at risk, like a track rental, and the IRL won't go for that.

This is a work in progress and will be for some time in the future. The ills of a 12-year split aren't going to get cured in six months. The CC teams got a generous deal on equipment to stay whole and stay in the sport when this took place. That's why you still see Wilson, Rahal, Junqueira, etc., still racing.

Peace.

You nailed this on the head, IC.

It gets a little tiring for these former fanatics who are still waiting for CC to return and hoping TG will fail. They are complaining and making discussion of what "should" be an IRL way of doing things. This is one reason why CC failed. CC owners and CC management put in these fanatics heads for many years now how to put hope on their fanatics' heads although they are just being brainwashed. It gets really annoying now.

It's only about six months for these two series united and these fanatics thinks the series is a failure. What should I expect from these guys?

Anyways, now that all team owners, good drivers, and sponsors are under one roof, this is way much better for an opportunity to grow. CART's Long Beach and IRL's I500 is now under one roof like it was 12 years ago, this series has two marquee events. The reality is that since this is one series now, obviously, some tracks that IRL and CC listed on their schedule will eventually won't make it to this one series' schedule. And as the series grow and as years to come, some tracks will be added, some tracks will be removed, and some track could likely be returning to the schedule. It's about the promoter and money to put make it on next year's schedule.

Adding event on the schedule is not even about what track needs to be added on the schedule but it's more of, "who's paying for it".

[MDS]

Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and agressively defending it.

[jimispeed]

Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and agressively defending it.


.

[downtowndeco]

Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and agressively defending it.

GMAB. This schedule (put together on the fly pretty much at last minute due to CCWS going BK) is 10x stronger and more diverse than anything CC offered the last 4 or 5 years.

Put that in yer pipe & smoke it.

[-Helix-]

Well not sure why they had to drop Nashville. Homestead or Sonoma would've been my first choices (assuming Motegi can't be dropped).

The schedule is getting ridiculous with the number of street festivals. It's starting to look like Champ Car with ovals. :rolleyes: I know they're trying to play it off as a "merger" but that doesn't mean we should take all their crappy races, especially if it means sacrificing perfectly good races at places like Nashville who have been incredibly loyal to this series. Not to mention it's a non-ISC oval which are hard to come by. They would rather stay at a horrible ISC track like Homestead that doesn't promote at all. Makes no sense.

Essentially, the IRL just destroyed their fanbase and support in the Nashville area in favor of Torontonians that know nothing about racing and just want a street party to attend for a couple days. This Champ Car philosophy is NOT the way to go. REAL fans (and tracks) should come before street parades that only attract weekenders with no interest in the series or racing at all.

The first half of the schedule looks good anyway. But I'll probably lose interest along the way since the second half contains the majority of the horrible tracks.

Overall though it's not too bad. About what I expected and no major differences. You can tell they're trying to free up dates for places like Cleveland and Road America for 2010 so that's promising. Hopefully those places can put together viable financial plans to make events work. Though I'm sure the fanatics will find some way to blame it on TG if they can't.

[-Helix-]

Wait, you don't "Understand ratings" but your confident there is "More exposure for teams. Yeah, sure. The ratings have been sliced in half, crowds are down, they're racing in tiny markets like Richmond and Iowa and somehow thats better than California and Michigan?

I always think it's funny when people think tracks like California and Michigan actually have a chance at ever hosting open-wheelers again.

Time to stop living in the past.

Richmond and Iowa want the IRL, California and Michigan do not. It's pretty simple.

[call_me_andrew]

Well I wouldn't call Toronto just some "street festival". The race has a 20 year history. I think that's enough to classify as tradition. The same goes for Long Beach.

[DavePI2]

I agree completely tht toronto is not a street festival and it certainly has a rich history. When I say there are too many street races I am refering to Detroit. My point is if you are going to have a race in michigan have it at a great track , mis.I understand also there isn't much chance of getting it back but Detroit is still a lousy substitute. If it must be a race to satisfy road race fans(I am one and I loved Champcar) there are much better locations then Detroit. Furthermore I love the fact Toronto is on the list and I just might plan a vacation there next year to coincide with the race.

david

[indycool]

We don't know if a Nashville dropped the IRL or the IRL dropped Nashville, granted, one of the country's BEST sports towns.

It just means the IRL and Dover Downs couldn't strike a bargain. Same with other venues that aren't on the schedule.

[-Helix-]

We don't know if a Nashville dropped the IRL or the IRL dropped Nashville, granted, one of the country's BEST sports towns.

It just means the IRL and Dover Downs couldn't strike a bargain. Same with other venues that aren't on the schedule.

Actually we do know that the IRL dropped Nashville. I might've heard wrong, but I'm pretty sure there weren't even any talks between the IRL and Dover. Why do you think there was so much anti-IRL sentiment in the Nashville press? I don't think they would be mad at the IRL if it was Dover that couldn't put together a good plan. That same press has supported and defended this series for years and in return they get the door slammed on them. Not the best way to make fans. NASCAR will completely take over that market now with no competition in town.

As for Toronto, I don't have anything against the race I think it is one of the better street races, however I don't like the idea of dropping a perfectly good race like Nashville for it. Homestead or Sonoma or Motegi or Belle Isle, etc, fine. But what was wrong with Nashville? It was a well supported race on a decent non-ICS track.

And we have way too many street races already. I think they should've either dropped Edmonton for it, or Belle Isle, or atleast decide not to take the trek halfway around the world to Australia to be a support series. I would hate to see St. Pete dropped as it is my local race, but I wouldn't be completely against it either if it meant more road courses or good ovals instead of another giant street party that happens to have cars driving around during it.

[indycool]

Just the thing, Helix: WE DON'T KNOW.

Did Dover offer or agree to an acceptable sanctioning fee? Did Dover make enough money on the race to agree to the IRL's demands of a sanctioning fee? Did NASCAR pull strings to handcuff Nashville on an IRL date? Did IRL handcuff itself into a date Nashville couldn't live with?

WE DON'T KNOW why they couldn't strike a bargain.

[xtlm]

hmm, Michigan and Cleveland :(

but i like it

[Spiderman]

Actually we do know that the IRL dropped Nashville. I might've heard wrong, but I'm pretty sure there weren't even any talks between the IRL and Dover. Why do you think there was so much anti-IRL sentiment in the Nashville press? I don't think they would be mad at the IRL if it was Dover that couldn't put together a good plan. That same press has supported and defended this series for years and in return they get the door slammed on them. Not the best way to make fans. NASCAR will completely take over that market now with no competition in town.

As for Toronto, I don't have anything against the race I think it is one of the better street races, however I don't like the idea of dropping a perfectly good race like Nashville for it. Homestead or Sonoma or Motegi or Belle Isle, etc, fine. But what was wrong with Nashville? It was a well supported race on a decent non-ICS track.

And we have way too many street races already. I think they should've either dropped Edmonton for it, or Belle Isle, or atleast decide not to take the trek halfway around the world to Australia to be a support series. I would hate to see St. Pete dropped as it is my local race, but I wouldn't be completely against it either if it meant more road courses or good ovals instead of another giant street party that happens to have cars driving around during it.

Edmonton may be temporary, bit it is more a road track than a street circuit...

[ShiftingGears]

GMAB. This schedule (put together on the fly pretty much at last minute due to CCWS going BK) is 10x stronger and more diverse than anything CC offered the last 4 or 5 years.

Put that in yer pipe & smoke it.

Is it?

I think they need to get more road courses on the calendar, and make Surfers Paradise a championship event. It's the best street circuit on the calendar, and coupled with the V8 Supercars, its one of the best motorsport events.

[BenRoethig]

Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and aggressively defending it.

He learned it from Bernie and Max.

[MDS]

I wouldn't be completely against it either if it meant more road courses or good ovals instead of another giant street party that happens to have cars driving around during it.

I love the idea that oval fans are there because they love the IRL sooo much, but in reality Chicago and Kansas are showing up because of the NASCAR "season ticket" package where a lot of NASCAR fans try to unload their tickets on the net or give them away to friends. Does Iowa get good crowds? Of course, but that's because its in Iowa. What else is there to do in Iowa on a summer weekend? Watch the corn grow? It's not like they have any A-level professional sport or entertainment of any kind in that state. Homestead is filled with smokers who show up because they get free tickets and can smoke outside

[BenRoethig]

I love the idea that oval fans are there because they love the IRL sooo much, but in reality Chicago and Kansas are showing up because of the NASCAR "season ticket" package where a lot of NASCAR fans try to unload their tickets on the net or give them away to friends. Does Iowa get good crowds? Of course, but that's because its in Iowa. What else is there to do in Iowa on a summer weekend? Watch the corn grow? It's not like they have any A-level professional sport or entertainment of any kind in that state. Homestead is filled with smokers who show up because they get free tickets and can smoke outside

Insult my state like that, its on. For the record I have NEVER been in a corn field or cow pasture. Over half the population lives in cities, have top flight schools and universities, enjoy such things are concerts and our many casinos.

[indycool]

The ex-CC fans on this board should think about the fact that many of the CC venues were supported by CC and/or KK and/or GF. And all three went belly-up on the exercise. The IRL, however, is still standing.

And no matter how you slice it, 30,000 sets of buns on the boards at Iowa is 10,000 more people than 20,000 at Cleveland.

On a ground zero basis, this is the old, long-standing oval preference vs. road course preference argument. Enough has been said about that over the years to fill the bandwidth of six Internets.

[gofastandwynn]

http://www.grandprixofcleveland.com/


Indy Racing League and MJ Promotions Statement Regarding the Grand Prix of Cleveland

CLEVELAND – July 30, 2008: The IndyCar Series will announce its 2009 schedule today but due to previous contractual obligations, the IndyCar Series will not be able to include the Grand Prix of Cleveland for next year. MJ Promotions, owner of the Grand Prix of Cleveland, had organized a proposal for the IndyCar Series with the help of local government and community leaders, and series officials traveled to Cleveland in June for a presentation and site visit. Although scheduling the event for 2009 was not possible, IndyCar Series and MJ Promotions officials confirmed today that discussions are ongoing about bringing the racing series to Cleveland in 2010.

“We were very impressed by the presentation and we recognize that there is a rich history of open-wheel racing in Cleveland,” said Terry Angstadt, president, commercial division, Indy Racing League, the sanctioning body for the IndyCar Series and Firestone Indy Lights. “However, due to contractual obligations and our desire to grow the schedule in a way that will work for all involved it was impossible to add all of the races we would have liked for 2009. We are looking forward to continuing to work with Mike Lanigan and MJ Promotions on the possibly of racing at Burke Lakefront Airport in the future.”

Mike Lanigan, CEO of MJ Promotions, added, “We are disappointed that the IRL was not able to include us for next year, but Cleveland is a great city with a proud racing tradition so we are very optimistic for 2010. We are grateful for the continued support of Mayor Jackson and the entire Cleveland community, and our company remains committed to the future of racing on the shores of Lake Erie.”

Ticket Refunds
Fans who have previously purchased tickets for the 2008 Grand Prix of Cleveland will receive a full refund on the ticket price. Fans who paid by credit card will receive their refund automatically, and fans who paid by check will receive a refund in the mail (please allow several weeks for all checks to be processed). Fans who purchased tickets in person at a Ticketmaster location must return to that location in person with their tickets to receive a refund.

If you have any questions, please call 216.619.7223 or email us at [email:2psuqirq]info@grandprixofcleveland.com[/email:2psuqirq].

[indycool]

Maybe a dumb question: Why in the world would anyone have bought tickets at Cleveland for 2008?

[-Helix-]

Just the thing, Helix: WE DON'T KNOW.

Did Dover offer or agree to an acceptable sanctioning fee? Did Dover make enough money on the race to agree to the IRL's demands of a sanctioning fee? Did NASCAR pull strings to handcuff Nashville on an IRL date? Did IRL handcuff itself into a date Nashville couldn't live with?

WE DON'T KNOW why they couldn't strike a bargain.

The point I was trying to make though is that while we don't know what the case really was, it's pretty obvious the IRL had no intentions of even attempting at making it work.

[-Helix-]

I love the idea that oval fans are there because they love the IRL sooo much, but in reality Chicago and Kansas are showing up because of the NASCAR "season ticket" package where a lot of NASCAR fans try to unload their tickets on the net or give them away to friends. Does Iowa get good crowds? Of course, but that's because its in Iowa. What else is there to do in Iowa on a summer weekend? Watch the corn grow? It's not like they have any A-level professional sport or entertainment of any kind in that state. Homestead is filled with smokers who show up because they get free tickets and can smoke outside

I'm not even sure what this garbage is trying to say.

But why on earth would these supposed NASCAR fans go to an IndyCar race if they have no reason for being there?

If I had tickets to a ballet yet I had no interest in ballet, I doubt I would use them.

But apparently you went to Chicago and Kansas and questioned every single person there on why they came to the event and found out this information. I wish I had your free time.

And I'm pretty sure it's legal to smoke in Miami, as it is in most places in the world. Why would smokers have to go to a race just to be able to light up? Seems like a waste of parking/gas/concession/etc money when you could just smoke at your own house.

Logic is a great thing. You should try it sometime.

[Miatanut]

George noted that several tracks have signed letters of intent to become charter members of the 1996 series, and several more are expected in upcoming weeks. "We are more concerned about he quality of the race promoters for 1996 than we are in quantity," said George. He noted that while the new league is interested in the majority of its events being held on oval tracks, road course will be on the 1996 schedule.

Absent from the news release was anything about american drivers, or stepping stone from USAC to Indy. I will continue to look, but I don't recall ever seeing a statement from TG saying that was his goal. I do recall reading TG's responses to questions about those issues being addressed through the creation of the league. There is a difference between stating your goals and saying that those issues will be favorably affected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BI

[indycool]

Helix, nine times out of 10, it's "follow the money."

If Dover Downs offered a sanction fee of $10, or the IRL demanded a sanction fee of $10 million, it'd be easy to determine which became disinterested enough to cause the other to say "no."

But we don't know if either of those things happened. Or something else of significance that led to it. Something happened, because Nashville is a good sports town and Firestone has significant interest there. We just don't know what it was.

[indycool]

Miatanut, how does that video, from before the league was even announced, support what you claim?

[Rex Monaco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BI

No wonder nobody listened to TG at CART, they fell asleep before he could make his point.

[Miatanut]

Miatanut, how does that video, from before the league was even announced, support what you claim?

I didn't claim anything. I let Tony explain it in his own words. Somebody made a comment that Tony wasn't talking about an oval-based league populated with American drivers.

Did you watch it?

That WAS the announcement of the league. Between all the 'uh's" and "um's" (some things don't change), he said he wanted his league to have "more of an American flavor (code for stopping the American series from being over-run with F1 retirees and rejects)" and be oval-based. From that point forward, CART was expected to do as Tony told them, or he would take his ball and go home. They didn't, then he did. Just as recently with Las Vegas speedway (again, some things don't change).

If the real intent in forming the league was to just create the current, but weaker, imitation of CART, what was the point of these last few years?

[indycool]

Well, if you read all that into TG's statement with your "code," are any aliens coming in from Pluto in the next few days?

I didn't see any "line in the sand" drawn from that. In fact, Craig's statements were to have discussions with TG. Sure, a lot of things happened later, but not with THAT video clip.

[MDS]

Insult my state like that, its on. For the record I have NEVER been in a corn field or cow pasture. Over half the population lives in cities, have top flight schools and universities, enjoy such things are concerts and our many casinos.

I'm sure Iowa is a nice place to live, for some people who like a certain lifestyle. My problem with Iowa is, its a tiny media market with a small population, and little local media or corporations to drawn from.

A lot of IRL races are in the middle of nowhere.

Out of the top 10 markets the IRL has has four races: Los Angeles, Chicago, the Bay area, and Dallas. The could have picked up an established race Houston, and an oval near Boston but chose to let that market go.

Only seven IRL races are in the top 20 U.S. Media markets: St Pete, Detriot, and Miami. They could have picked up Cleveland, but chose not to.

Only eight IRL races are in the top 30 market: Indianapolis. They dropped Nashville and could have picked up Portland.

Four races are in the 30 to 40 market range: Kansas City, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti

There are no races in the 40 to 50 market range. That means out of 19 races only 12 are in major top U.S. 50 media markets. Racing in front of small crowds in the middle of no where, like Iowa and Richmond do the sport little good.

This schedule was one big chance for the IRL to make waves, bring positive attention to itself with a series of marquee events, instead they throw out dull, almost the same as the year before crap, and people wonder why the Indy 500 ratings are below the NASCAR average and far below the NASCAR broadcast channel average.

Sure ISC events might be off the table, but take Eddie Gossage up on his five track deal to get New Hampshire and Las Vegas on the schedule. I'd much rather see the season end with a 400 mile event at LVMS than a 300 miler at Homestead.

This was the year to back Paul Newman's effort to get a race at Floyd Bennett Feild. It would be a big market marquee event in Brooklyn in April to lend exposure to the Indy 500.

Pikes Peak has been sold, if NASCAR didn't put anything in the lease prohibit it, look at staging a race there.

Look at having an early season race in Brazil. The league has a number of Brazillian drivers and sponsors, so it would more than likely be successful. It's in the same time zone as the US and because of the climate you could stage a race at the PK circuit in March.

Mexico City could be another March race date on a big stage.

There were bigger better options out there, and none of them made it on the schedule. I don't know if that's the tracks' or promotors' fault, but I bet a fair bit of the blame can find a home in Indianapolis.

[indycool]

MDS, congratulations on an understanding of markets. You get an "A" in reading market population lists and an "F" in how racing schedules come together.

There are many elements to a schedule: Promoter, sanctioning body, venue, weather, dates, TV, where sponsors want to be, where competitors want to be, where fans want to be, etc. If all those elements strike a bargain, you are likely to have a successful race. If it was just to take a list of the top 50 markets, say "okay, NYC is No. 1 so we'll go there," any sport would do it in a heartbeat. But ISC already struck out building a track there and CART's efforts at the Meadowlands were a disaster.

Iowa? Newton is just down I-80 from Des Moines, a city with the second largest number of insurance company headquarters in the nation behind Hartford, Conn. Near Des Moines are the Knoxville Nationals, one of the premier events in sprint car racing in the nation and an event with a long racing history. IMO, it should not be dismissed as a bunch of hayseeds.

Houston? A loser, financially. Loudon? Probably in 2010. Cleveland? A loser, financially. Portland? A loser, financially. It's still a question of who dropped who on Nashville and I'm not convinced that both sides, promoter and sanctioning body, just couldn't agree on money. Vegas? Lost money on both IRL and CC at LVMS, lost a TON with CC downtown, enough that the promoter it talked into it canceled his other race in Phoenix.

Did you/do you expect all of that, the top 19 markets, to just be knocked over in a nice tidy row in six months' time and throw out the rest? If so, you knock out the Indianapolis 500 because Indianapolis isn't in the top 19, even though it contains the world's largest seating facility and the world's longest standing auto race.

Richmond? Draw a circle 100 miles around Richmond on your atlas and see what you find.

Pikes Peak? It's closed. Period. All gone. No more. Brazil? What good does that do American sponsors for teams and series? CART's teams and sponsors complained in the late '80s and early '90s when it was making noise about going abroad. Surfers? Mexico City? Same thing. Don't think Mexico City even has a promoter now. Motegi? Honda and Firestone, two of the major sponsors, want it and they get it.

Six months to execute all of your wonderful options would be next to impossible, even if venues suddenly sprouted up in NYC and elsewhere on your target list and were following the IRL like a Pied Piper to your doorstep.

This will take time and, IMO, you will never be pleased with it.

[MDS]

You cannot deny this schedule release was their chance to carry any momentum from the merger and they wiffed. I don't think anyone outside of the fans of this message board and two others care. It's dull, its repetative, it is in a bunch of tiny markets with two major events and then a whole lotta nothing.

As far as Newman's race in Brooklyn its something he's been working on for three years now. If Tony George got behind it they could have gotten it done. The legwork has been done, there is a promoter in place, it could be done at a lower cost because its an abandoned airport. Had it been made a priority it could have happened.

There is a lack of inspiration and vision in Indy. They've got there one used-to-be-big event and a NASCAR race and as long as those two things are cash cows they're not really inspired to get off their ass and do anything else. Had Michael Andretti not taken the inatitive, lobbied and put his own money into Toronto the only thing that would have changed was a couple of dates, all the tracks would have been the same.

[Miatanut]

Well, if you read all that into TG's statement with your "code," are any aliens coming in from Pluto in the next few days?

I didn't see any "line in the sand" drawn from that. In fact, Craig's statements were to have discussions with TG. Sure, a lot of things happened later, but not with THAT video clip.

I haven't heard any aliens giving interviews that they are coming from Pluto. I did hear Tony George talking there that if he didn't get things his way, he was going to start his own oval racing series "with more of an American flavor". In other words, "My way or the highway." It was meant to be very clear at the time, it was very clear, and exactly what he described happened.

I also heard Andrew Craig trying to be diplomatic. Probably Las Vegas speedway and Surfer's Paradise were being diplomatic with Tony, and in response they got "My way or the highway". I expect it will happen to the LBGP too. It's just a matter of how long it will take for that to happen.

[Cart750hp]

I didn't claim anything. I let Tony explain it in his own words. Somebody made a comment that Tony wasn't talking about an oval-based league populated with American drivers.

Did you watch it?

That WAS the announcement of the league. Between all the 'uh's" and "um's" (some things don't change), he said he wanted his league to have "more of an American flavor (code for stopping the American series from being over-run with F1 retirees and rejects)" and be oval-based. From that point forward, CART was expected to do as Tony told them, or he would take his ball and go home. They didn't, then he did. Just as recently with Las Vegas speedway (again, some things don't change).

If the real intent in forming the league was to just create the current, but weaker, imitation of CART, what was the point of these last few years?

You have got to be kidding me!!!! Are you for real??!!!

This is your problem and for those fanatics out there:

1) You base you narrow mind and argument against IRL for what was said and done 12 years ago.
2) You believed that CC and CART existed because of you, the fanatics.
3) You typically ignore the reality that even Paul Newman, Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser who's been very vocal against IRL in the past are now in IRL. Even the freaking owner of the series, KK, is now in IRL!!! Next year, Forsythe most likely join IRL too.
4) Champ Car has been officially dead since February. It's gone! You cannot stand how TG work his own, then you know what to do. How in the h3ll have you became an IRL fan in the first place? When CC was still ran by the amigos, you guys already hated IRL!! Oh no, please don't tell me that you are hoping that the CC guys are gonna come back or take over the IRL. Please no. Or start a thread how the CC guys are kicking the IRL guys.....how's that gonna happen? IRL and CC racing? Where's CC now, anyways?

Grow up.

[Miatanut]

You have got to be kidding me!!!! Are you for real??!!!

This is your problem and for those fanatics out there:

1) You base you narrow mind and argument against IRL for what was said and done 12 years ago.
2) You believed that CC and CART existed because of you, the fanatics.
3) You typically ignore the reality that even Paul Newman, Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser who's been very vocal against IRL in the past are now in IRL. Even the freaking owner of the series, KK, is now in IRL!!! Next year, Forsythe most likely join IRL too.
4) Champ Car has been officially dead since February. It's gone! You cannot stand how TG work his own, then you know what to do. How in the h3ll have you became an IRL fan in the first place? When CC was still ran by the amigos, you guys already hated IRL!! Oh no, please don't tell me that you are hoping that the CC guys are gonna come back or take over the IRL. Please no. Or start a thread how the CC guys are kicking the IRL guys.....how's that gonna happen? IRL and CC racing? Where's CC now, anyways?

Grow up.

Odd post from somebody using the handle "CART750HP"!

For the record, for the last few years I felt quite strongly that there needed to be a single series, and I felt the last year of Champ Car represented desecrating the rotting corpse of CART.

Also for the record, I read the White Paper with glee when it first became public, because I knew Gurney was proposing exactly what the sport needed. The subsequent years of growth proved that.

Currently we have the bad things about the USAC days without the good things.

Hard to find any joy in that.

[Cart750hp]

I'm sure Iowa is a nice place to live, for some people who like a certain lifestyle. My problem with Iowa is, its a tiny media market with a small population, and little local media or corporations to drawn from.

A lot of IRL races are in the middle of nowhere.

Out of the top 10 markets the IRL has has four races: Los Angeles, Chicago, the Bay area, and Dallas. The could have picked up an established race Houston, and an oval near Boston but chose to let that market go.

Only seven IRL races are in the top 20 U.S. Media markets: St Pete, Detriot, and Miami. They could have picked up Cleveland, but chose not to.

Only eight IRL races are in the top 30 market: Indianapolis. They dropped Nashville and could have picked up Portland.

Four races are in the 30 to 40 market range: Kansas City, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti

There are no races in the 40 to 50 market range. That means out of 19 races only 12 are in major top U.S. 50 media markets. Racing in front of small crowds in the middle of no where, like Iowa and Richmond do the sport little good.

This schedule was one big chance for the IRL to make waves, bring positive attention to itself with a series of marquee events, instead they throw out dull, almost the same as the year before crap, and people wonder why the Indy 500 ratings are below the NASCAR average and far below the NASCAR broadcast channel average.

Sure ISC events might be off the table, but take Eddie Gossage up on his five track deal to get New Hampshire and Las Vegas on the schedule. I'd much rather see the season end with a 400 mile event at LVMS than a 300 miler at Homestead.

This was the year to back Paul Newman's effort to get a race at Floyd Bennett Feild. It would be a big market marquee event in Brooklyn in April to lend exposure to the Indy 500.

Pikes Peak has been sold, if NASCAR didn't put anything in the lease prohibit it, look at staging a race there.

Look at having an early season race in Brazil. The league has a number of Brazillian drivers and sponsors, so it would more than likely be successful. It's in the same time zone as the US and because of the climate you could stage a race at the PK circuit in March.

Mexico City could be another March race date on a big stage.

There were bigger better options out there, and none of them made it on the schedule. I don't know if that's the tracks' or promotors' fault, but I bet a fair bit of the blame can find a home in Indianapolis.

This post of yours is nothing but wishing IRL's schedule to be similar to CC. Let me ask you this: those venues you wished were added on the schedule, did they help CC financially and became successful? Where's CC now?

I don't see any point of yours other than hoping CC is still around.

[Cart750hp]

Odd post from somebody using the handle "CART750HP"!

I agree. At least you start to wonder the difference of what was and what is.



For the record, for the last few years I felt quite strongly that there needed to be a single series, and I felt the last year of Champ Car represented desecrating the rotting corpse of CART.

....well, I know how you feel. You just wished it was the IRL who's gonna join CC.


Also for the record, I read the White Paper with glee when it first became public, because I knew Gurney was proposing exactly what the sport needed. The subsequent years of growth proved that.

I don't know what you're talking about and I bet no matter what Gurney or Miatanut says, TG will eventually look out for his own interests.



Currently we have the bad things about the USAC days without the good things.

Hard to find any joy in that.

First, I was too young during the "you suck" days. I agree, hard to find any joy in that. The name USAC alone doesn't sound right.

[MDS]

This post of yours is nothing but wishing IRL's schedule to be similar to CC. Let me ask you this: those venues you wished were added on the schedule, did they help CC financially and became successful? Where's CC now?

I don't see any point of yours other than hoping CC is still around.

Actually I'm wishing it could be more like NASCAR, which has a presence in 11 of the top 20 markets, including six of the top seven. Adverstisers really like factoids like that when it comes to spending $7 to $14 million

[indycool]

MDS, yes, I CAN deny they "whiffed" on the schedule release. Of the events on the schedule, the weakest is Homestead and it's going to the end to try to spice it up. All are independently promoted -- no self-promotes, track rentals or co-promotes. It was announced in July, giving teams plenty of time to put programs together with potential sponsors if they can. None of the races appear to be "fluff," like an Ansan or a Zhuhai.

If they didn't grant you, in your wisdom, the bankrupt CC venues you desired, we're going to hafta agree to disagree and you're going to hafta just deal with it in your own way.

[indycool]

The Meadowlands course was miserable, so bad that in the first race there, Luyendyk went on a runoff, wound up in a parking lot and had to ask directions to get back on course DURING THE RACE. It lasted a couple years, then course and promoter changed to no avail. Whatever attendance and sponsorship it had for the first year or two didn't hold up and didn't hold up to raised sanction fees. CART bragged about being in NYC. Attendance, who knows? There weren't a great number of seats.

Cleveland was a novelty, the first for CART on an airport course and was a leader in its own right. If, for no other reason, the track doctor, Dr. Virginia Ellis, developed what came to be known as the "MR-10," a golf cart built with room for a gurney and life-saving gear to use on pit road, something quite common now. However, attendance was ALWAYS overplayed and that caught up quite quickly with the sanction-fee demands of CART Chairman John Frasco. After IMG, which has its HQ in Cleveland, tried it for a few years, it just gave promoter rights back to CART because it wasn't worth the trouble, same as it did with Detroit. Although it may be the only road course in the world (outside of perhaps Edmonton) where a fan could see the whole track, and the FASTEST road course on the CART/CC schedule, it hit the financial ceiling rather quickly and went downhill in the pocketbook for a long, long time.

[MDS]

MDS, yes, I CAN deny they "whiffed" on the schedule release. Of the events on the schedule, the weakest is Homestead and it's going to the end to try to spice it up. All are independently promoted -- no self-promotes, track rentals or co-promotes. It was announced in July, giving teams plenty of time to put programs together with potential sponsors if they can. None of the races appear to be "fluff," like an Ansan or a Zhuhai.

If they didn't grant you, in your wisdom, the bankrupt CC venues you desired, we're going to hafta agree to disagree and you're going to hafta just deal with it in your own way.

Have you looked at the schedule? Watkins Glen, Infineon, Homestead, St. Pete, Infineon, Edmonton and likely Tornoto are all money losers. Chicago and Kansas aren't promoted because there's no need since the hold NASCAR fans hostage to get them to buy tickets. Mid-Ohio and Motegi are Honda Company picnics. Milwaukee and Richmond are at best a marginally profitable. So that leaves what, Indy, Surfers and Iowa as profitable, healthy events?

Moving Homestead to the fall a few weeks before the NASCAR finale is just moronic. The race was a boring affair in front of a bunch of Malboro smokers who got free tickets. How is making it the last race of the season any better?

I don't want the schedule to look more like Champ Car, I just want to be better and more exciting. Most ovals offer parade-style racing and courses like Watkins Glen and Mid-Ohio just don't create good racing with these cars, but I suppose as long mega-rich companies are willing to bleed cash to put them on you'll support it.

[indycool]

Yes, I've looked at the schedule, and we should just agree to disagree.

I don't believe you understand the profit picture at many of these venues. St. Petersburg, for example, didn't happen until EVERYTHING was in place, a deal with the city, enough sponsorship to carry the load, etc. Mid-Ohio wasn't added until sponsorship was put together with Honda so that the whole deal made financial sense. This event WASN'T a "Hey, we're going to Zhuhai and 500 million Chinese are gonna care."

Whether NASCAR fans are "held hostage" or most of them go to enjoy the IRL race is a matter of opinion at Kansas and Chicago. You don't see the crowds going down at either place.

I'll give you that Homestead doesn't draw well for much of anything. BUT those "free" tickets for Marlboro are PAID FOR by Marlboro and sponsorships are in place for the race.

Richmond attendance continues to grow and the bank down there has stuck with its sponsorship. Milwaukee is different in that it's traditional but you never know what the fair board is going to do or what promoter you might be dealing with AND this was the first year of a single series.

Again, we'll just hafta agree to disagree. We're extremely far apart on our views.

[downtowndeco]

Have you looked at the schedule? Watkins Glen, Infineon, Homestead, St. Pete, Infineon, Edmonton and likely Tornoto are all money losers. Chicago and Kansas aren't promoted because there's no need since the hold NASCAR fans hostage to get them to buy tickets. Mid-Ohio and Motegi are Honda Company picnics. Milwaukee and Richmond are at best a marginally profitable. So that leaves what, Indy, Surfers and Iowa as profitable, healthy events?

Moving Homestead to the fall a few weeks before the NASCAR finale is just moronic. The race was a boring affair in front of a bunch of Malboro smokers who got free tickets. How is making it the last race of the season any better?

I don't want the schedule to look more like Champ Car, I just want to be better and more exciting. Most ovals offer parade-style racing and courses like Watkins Glen and Mid-Ohio just don't create good racing with these cars, but I suppose as long mega-rich companies are willing to bleed cash to put them on you'll support it.

You are the classic example of a CC fan that will never be happy with anything TG or the IRL does. If I were the IRL I wouldn't even try. You are in that .01% that has it in for TG & will hold a grudge till the grave.

The IRL isn't going to try & keep you as a fan. Because nothing they ever do will make you happy.

[indycool]

Agree, dd. The CW brethren are depleted further, and even at full strength, the IRL cannot spend an ounce of energy trying to placate that group. It is gone. Period. It. Over. There are millions of others to appeal to.

[MDS]

This event WASN'T a "Hey, we're going to Zhuhai and 500 million Chinese are gonna care."

You keep referencing Zhuhai like it was standard operating procedure. There was a lot more that went on with that race than what has been made public. One of my exes worked for a marketing company that was involved in setting up the deal, and while he doesn't know everything, and hasn't told me all he knows, he did say that there was a promoter, sponsor and season long TV package ready to be announced, and literally hours before the press conference the Chinese government shut the whole thing down.

Why? I don't know. Was it pressure from F-1 and the FIA? Maybe, probably not. Was it a result of complex regional politics within China unhappy with the ever expanding American presence in that country? More likely.

This wasn't just Keystone Cops moment. KG and GF know how to run a business and make international deals. This involved forces far outside of Champ Car. The loss of face, time, money and momentum of the whole Zunhai disaster is one of the causes for the merger. I do know that.

[weeflyonthewall]

MDS, congratulations on an understanding of markets. You get an "A" in reading market population lists and an "F" in how racing schedules come together.

An "F" according to your scale of measurement. What qualifies you to be judge, jury and executioner?


There are many elements to a schedule: Promoter, sanctioning body, venue, weather, dates, TV, where sponsors want to be, where competitors want to be, where fans want to be, etc. If all those elements strike a bargain, you are likely to have a successful race. If it was just to take a list of the top 50 markets, say "okay, NYC is No. 1 so we'll go there," any sport would do it in a heartbeat. But ISC already struck out building a track there and CART's efforts at the Meadowlands were a disaster.

Meadowlands disaster? Like many other cities including Seattle where NIMBY politicians have undermined the concept due to undisclosed outside influence? I guess as close as it is, Watkins Glen isn't that big a deal for New Yorkers or New Englanders. F1 couldn't do it, CART couldn't do it, and your suggesting your uncle Tony has the magic formula for success? Maybe its his checkbook!


Iowa? Newton is just down I-80 from Des Moines, a city with the second largest number of insurance company headquarters in the nation behind Hartford, Conn. Near Des Moines are the Knoxville Nationals, one of the premier events in sprint car racing in the nation and an event with a long racing history. IMO, it should not be dismissed as a bunch of hayseeds.

Or hayseed growers? I thought we were looking to develop a fan base for American Open Wheel Racing. I thought the Grays Lake Park circuit idea was interesting.


Houston? A loser, financially. Loudon? Probably in 2010. Cleveland? A loser, financially. Portland? A loser, financially. It's still a question of who dropped who on Nashville and I'm not convinced that both sides, promoter and sanctioning body, just couldn't agree on money. Vegas? Lost money on both IRL and CC at LVMS, lost a TON with CC downtown, enough that the promoter it talked into it canceled his other race in Phoenix.

Are Houston, Clevelend, or Laguna Seca much different than Watkins Glen when it comes to a being a "PROFITABLE" event by your standards? Whatever they are? Care to elaborate?
IIRC you also said Long Beach was a financial disaster when it was CC's marquee event. Do you still refuse to acknowledge the negative impact Dover had on events managed by the LBGPA. Denver, St. Pete's, Laguna Seca and Gateway? Just wondered.


Did you/do you expect all of that, the top 19 markets, to just be knocked over in a nice tidy row in six months' time and throw out the rest? If so, you knock out the Indianapolis 500 because Indianapolis isn't in the top 19, even though it contains the world's largest seating facility and the world's longest standing auto race.

Richmond? Draw a circle 100 miles around Richmond on your atlas and see what you find.

Pikes Peak? It's closed. Period. All gone. No more. Brazil? What good does that do American sponsors for teams and series? CART's teams and sponsors complained in the late '80s and early '90s when it was making noise about going abroad. Surfers? Mexico City? Same thing. Don't think Mexico City even has a promoter now. Motegi? Honda and Firestone, two of the major sponsors, want it and they get it.

Six months to execute all of your wonderful options would be next to impossible, even if venues suddenly sprouted up in NYC and elsewhere on your target list and were following the IRL like a Pied Piper to your doorstep.

This will take time and, IMO, you will never be pleased with it.

At least we have a pied piper in Honda to prop things up in the mean time.

[garyshell]

You are the classic example of a CC fan that will never be happy with anything TG or the IRL does. If I were the IRL I wouldn't even try. You are in that .01% that has it in for TG & will hold a grudge till the grave.

The IRL isn't going to try & keep you as a fan. Because nothing they ever do will make you happy.


Agree, dd. The CW brethren are depleted further, and even at full strength, the IRL cannot spend an ounce of energy trying to placate that group. It is gone. Period. It. Over. There are millions of others to appeal to.


Both of you ought to stop assuming that because someone disagrees with an ICS decision that they are of the CCF ilk. I disagree with the ICS on some of this stuff and I sure as hell am not one of the CCF crowd. I have my countdown to prove it. I also have the grudge and indeed will hold it until the grave, however it does not and will not prevent me from moving on. I think there are more than .01% with that grudge. I also think that the ICS knows that and can overcome it too. I think they have demonstrated that with among other things, the embrace of Edmonton, Long Beach, Surfers and getting Paul Tracy into a car.

I agree there are some of those CCF type folks still around, but question how many of them actually post HERE. There are a few, to be sure. But don't make that blanket assumption.

Gary

[indycool]

MDS, fine, Zhuhai wasn't all CC's fault. But CC's principals were bragging about getting it and beating the drums long before it went blooey. KK and GF know how to put together an international deal? For racing? Ansan, too? Brazil?

Starter, Cleveland might've had a good start, but that went away with Frascoesque sanctioning fee manipulations. The Meadowlands, sounds like you pretty much know what I know. The thing about temporary courses is how many seats they build for attendance and how much GA room they have. The Meadowlands had very little of each. Long Beach has had the most seats of ANY temporary and you'd be surprised to know that figure.

weefly:
1. IMO
2. I've never suggested TG could do anything about NYC. I've never suggested that I've seen anything anywhere that he even wanted to.
3. Those hayseed growers pack 'em for the Knoxville Nationals and corporate support can come from Des Moines. There's a lot of money in that town. Otherwise, I don't understand your b---h.
4. Houston and Cleveland ARE different. Laguna is a fine road course. All three were economic victims of CART/CC in some form. And sure Dover had a big part to play in some of those.
5. So you're not pleased that Honda and Firestone sponsor things. Tough.

[downtowndeco]

Both of you ought to stop assuming that because someone disagrees with an ICS decision that they are of the CCF ilk. I disagree with the ICS on some of this stuff and I sure as hell am not one of the CCF crowd. I have my countdown to prove it. I also have the grudge and indeed will hold it until the grave, however it does not and will not prevent me from moving on. I think there are more than .01% with that grudge. I also think that the ICS knows that and can overcome it too. I think they have demonstrated that with among other things, the embrace of Edmonton, Long Beach, Surfers and getting Paul Tracy into a car.

I agree there are some of those CCF type folks still around, but question how many of them actually post HERE. There are a few, to be sure. But don't make that blanket assumption.

Gary

I call them like I see them. I wasn't lumping in all former CC fans. I was specifically addressing one fan and the comments they made. I don't take it back.

What do you think the chances are that if we were to go through MDS's posts over the last few years that before the split they said they would never, under any circumstances, support any series that TG was in charge of? Pretty good odds I bet.

[garyshell]

I call them like I see them. I wasn't lumping in all former CC fans. I was specifically addressing one fan and the comments they made. I don't take it back.

What do you think the chances are that if we were to go through MDS's posts over the last few years that before the split they said they would never, under any circumstances, support any series that TG was in charge of? Pretty good odds I bet.


Seeing as how MDS didn't join here until June of 2008, that's a very big assumption on your point. And that is precisely my point. You jumped on his comments as if you knew that he was one of the CCF crowd you are talking about. But you don't know that at all. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That's not calling 'em like you see 'em, it is calling 'em like you want to see 'em. Or more to the point, like you ASSUME you see 'em.

If we are to truly get past the bad blood that has existed for years, it is going to take more than just the old Champ Car fans getting over the fact that the ICS won the war of attrition. It is going to take some of the old IRL fans having some patience, instead of calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a member of the CCF community.

Gary

[MDS]

I call them like I see them. I wasn't lumping in all former CC fans. I was specifically addressing one fan and the comments they made. I don't take it back.

What do you think the chances are that if we were to go through MDS's posts over the last few years that before the split they said they would never, under any circumstances, support any series that TG was in charge of? Pretty good odds I bet.

Because you asked.
CCF
I think that was the first internet forum I ever joined

[garyshell]

Because you asked.
CCF
I think that was the first internet forum I ever joined


Because many of us are banned from there (including me) you might want to quote the message here.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Seeing as how MDS didn't join here until June of 2008, that's a very big assumption on your point. And that is precisely my point. You jumped on his comments as if you knew that he was one of the CCF crowd you are talking about. But you don't know that at all. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That's not calling 'em like you see 'em, it is calling 'em like you want to see 'em. Or more to the point, like you ASSUME you see 'em.

If we are to truly get past the bad blood that has existed for years, it is going to take more than just the old Champ Car fans getting over the fact that the ICS won the war of attrition. It is going to take some of the old IRL fans having some patience, instead of calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a member of the CCF community.

Gary

What do you think the IRL would have to do to make MDS happy?

IMO It says a lot about where someone is coming from if they've been a member of CCF, you included, regardless of whether you were banned or not.

[indycool]

Gary has been the #1 peacemaker at this forum, IMO, since the series became one, but DD has an interesting point: Are the mods going to allow the CW crowd to move over here just to take grudge shots? Time will tell.

[garyshell]

What do you think the IRL would have to do to make MDS happy?

IMO It says a lot about where someone is coming from if they've been a member of CCF, you included, regardless of whether you were banned or not.


I haven't a clue what would make him happy. Unlike some folks here I don't pretend to be clairvoyant.

I think it says a lot about someone when they judge another based solely on their membership in another forum, without taking into account what the PARTICIPATION was in that other forum.

For your information, I joined there long before it was the CCF. I thought it was funny and participated for a VERY short time. Then, latter I looked back in occasionally and saw the pit of vitriol it had become and that it had become the CCF. As the issue with Paul Tracy and Forsythe came to a head and some messages about Viv surfaced here, I went back to read what she said and posted some messages there. I immediately got my butt banned. Now if that paints me with the same brush as the rest of the CCF crowd in your eye, frankly Scarlet I don't give a damn. I only include this to show the rest of the folks here how short sighted and shallow your comment was.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Gary has been the #1 peacemaker at this forum, IMO, since the series became one, but DD has an interesting point: Are the mods going to allow the CW crowd to move over here just to take grudge shots? Time will tell.

This will be my last post on this subject. ; )

I'd agree Gary has been fairly level handed, but his bias still shows (as does mine).

Let's just say it's not nessisarily a sign of being reasonable and fair minded just because someone has been banned from CW. It doesn't take much to be shown the door. Typical banning;

Poster # 1. "I think TG is a coke snorting sheep ****** that is easily as deranged as Charles Manson!!!"

Poster # 2. "Well, I can't stand him either but I wouldn't go quite that far, his family does own IMS, which is a pretty cool race track..."

"Poster # 1. "What are you, a closet gomer!?!?!!!. FIVE!!!!FOUR!!! etc etc etc..."


: )

[garyshell]

Gary has been the #1 peacemaker at this forum, IMO, since the series became one, but DD has an interesting point: Are the mods going to allow the CW crowd to move over here just to take grudge shots? Time will tell.


IC, thanks for that. I have tried to do that. Not out of some altruistic goal, but as a way to help clear my own conflicted feelings.

Clearly, I think Starter and Jose have already answered that with an affirmative no.

Gary

[garyshell]

This will be my last post on this subject. ; )

I'd agree Gary has been fairly level handed, but his bias still shows (as does mine).

Let's just say it's not nessisarily a sign of being reasonable and fair minded just because someone has been banned from CW. It doesn't take much to be shown the door. Typical banning;

Poster # 1. "I think TG is a coke snorting sheep ****** that is easily as deranged as Charles Manson!!!"

Poster # 2. "Well, I can't stand him either but I wouldn't go quite that far, his family does own IMS, which is a pretty cool race track..."

"Poster # 1. "What are you, a closet gomer!?!?!!!. FIVE!!!!FOUR!!! etc etc etc..."


: )


And I don't ever try to hide my bias, nor should you. I agree with you that it doesn't take much to get banned there. Your example is damn close to how I got booted. Mine was because I dared to say I would watch PT no matter where he raced.

But just as being banned is no sign of, as you put it, "being reasonable and fair minded", neither is simple membership there a sign of being part of the dark side.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

MDS, fine, Zhuhai wasn't all CC's fault. But CC's principals were bragging about getting it and beating the drums long before it went blooey. KK and GF know how to put together an international deal? For racing? Ansan, too? Brazil?

Starter, Cleveland might've had a good start, but that went away with Frascoesque sanctioning fee manipulations. The Meadowlands, sounds like you pretty much know what I know. The thing about temporary courses is how many seats they build for attendance and how much GA room they have. The Meadowlands had very little of each. Long Beach has had the most seats of ANY temporary and you'd be surprised to know that figure.

weefly:
1. IMO
2. I've never suggested TG could do anything about NYC. I've never suggested that I've seen anything anywhere that he even wanted to.
3. Those hayseed growers pack 'em for the Knoxville Nationals and corporate support can come from Des Moines. There's a lot of money in that town. Otherwise, I don't understand your b---h.
4. Houston and Cleveland ARE different. Laguna is a fine road course. All three were economic victims of CART/CC in some form. And sure Dover had a big part to play in some of those.
5. So you're not pleased that Honda and Firestone sponsor things. Tough.

2. Who's underwriting the Watkins Glen event then? All the evidence points to the same financial failure as Houston, Cleveland, Portland, etc. unless its being underwritten by shall we say silent financing?

3. The same Knoxville Nationals that couldn't find a sanctioning body after the WoO split? Its been a great event but no guarantee the money train will move north to support ICS in perpetuity.

4. Houston had struggles with redevelopment after Carl Haas promoted the first ones. Lanigan had both Cleveland and Houston on the rebound via Mi-Jack. “We were very impressed by the presentation and we are confident that Houston could be a great market for the IndyCar Series,” said Terry Angstadt, president, commercial division, Indy Racing League, the sanctioning body for the IndyCar Series and Firestone Indy Lights. “However, due to contractual obligations and our desire to grow the schedule in a way that will work for all involved it was impossible to add all of the races we would have liked for 2009. We are looking forward to continuing to work with Mike Lanigan and MJ Promotions on the possibly of racing at Reliant Park in the future". I hope this is more that 16th & Georgetown lip service.

5. Putting words in my mouth again? If it were not for Honda and Firestone, ICS would still be struggling. Mergification or not.

[MDS]

What do you think the IRL would have to do to make MDS happy?

I'm not about getting old CC/CART tracks on the IRL schedule. Most of the teams, drivers and tracks were involved with CC/CART anyway.

What I want as a fan is something that's going to grab my attention and make me want to watch. I'm not huge NASCAR fan by any means, but I can look at the schedule and know I'll want to watch the races at Daytona, Bristol, Indy, Talladega, and the Coke 600 because those are the big, marquee events. I don't really care enough about the sport to make sure I watch every race, but I want to catch the big ones because they're fun.

With open wheel, which I am much more a fan, I want a schedule that will make me want to watch. Indy, Long Beach and Texas are the big events on the schedule, and then after that they drop off significantly in the quality of racing and marquee value. I would think Toronto's next but the rest of the ovals and most of the road courses are boring events in small markets.

There are two events I would travel to see on this schedule, Indy and Long Beach. I want a schedule where I see events that are like "I have to watch that," or "I'm going to plan a vacation around that one." and there just isn't a lot of this on this schedule.


IMO It says a lot about where someone is coming from if they've been a member of CCF, you included, regardless of whether you were banned or not.

I joined CCF because there were a number of crew guys on there I used to know and the information traded there was of a pretty reliable quality. I posted a link to my post history there. I wasn't a big poster there, and most of my stuff was pretty middle of the road stuff as far as the politics go.

[DBell]

After looking around at a couple other forums, I think it's a mistake to assume only former CC fans are complaining about the schedule. TF has a multi page meltdown in progress from the IRL faithful about the schedule. From their general view, no Vegas and Loudon oval races plus the subtraction of Nashville amounts to treason. Some seem close to sticking an F in front of TG while others believe it's the evil influence of Tony Cotman and KK operating from the inside as a CC trojan horse. :p

As for me, the schedule is about what I expected, though losing Surfers was a surprise. Wasn't it touted from meetings earlier this year that a multi year agreement had been reached? And know it's not on the schedule. How "Champ Car" like of them. Anyone setting odds yet of this years race still going through?

[indycool]

DB, please post a link to people talking about treason there or joining F-Troop. I looked. You can't.

[pits4me]

Folks I talk to are not too happy with the 2009 announcement. Might as well have given MJ Promotions the middle finger with Cleveland and Houston ignored. Surfers will either be added as a points race in 2009 or there's going to be some interesting tap dancing at KV Racing.

[indycool]

From what Angstadt and Lanigan have said about Houston and Cleveland, it doesn't sound like anyone gave anyone the finger. And it stands to reason that KV Racing would be especially interested in Surfers. Duh.

[DBell]

DB, please post a link to people talking about treason there or joining F-Troop. I looked. You can't.


Well I can't post a link because, unless the rule have changed, links to other forums are not allowed. It's a thread called "Wow....The IRL has lost it's mind". Treason was my word as several post were about a sense of abandonment and anger at what they felt was move away from what they thought they IRL was and should be. And a fair amount of that anger was directed at Mr. George and I was joking that they were going to insert an F in front of his initials, not that they were going to join CW.

The point I tried to bring up is that this is the age old AOW divide. The oval side and road racing side and there are those on each side that will never be happy unless it becomes all ovals or all road/street races. There is always going to be some complaints about the schedule. And it's not really acurate to imply it's only former CC fans that are unhappy with what the schedule looks like.

[SarahFan]

DB, please post a link to people talking about treason there or joining F-Troop. I looked. You can't.


come on IC...theres some ready to slice there wrists in that thread



denial is not flattering on you

[SarahFan]

DD....IC...or anyone else....?


IYO is the IRL still 'Ovalcentric'?

[downtowndeco]

DD....IC...or anyone else....?


IYO is the IRL still 'Ovalcentric'?

Compared to F1? Yes. Compared to GP2? Yes. Compared to Atlantics? Yes. Compared to CCWS the last few years? Yes. Compared to the IRL of 1996? Not as much so. But still at least 50% ovals which 50% more than any other OW series in the world. I'm a happy boy. : )

[chuck34]

I think you all have been dancing around a good point here, so let's boil it down a bit.

No one seems to be happy. The Champ Car guys don't think there are enough road/street courses and the IRL guys don't think there are enough ovals. That sounds like there was a pretty good compromise going on in the front office at 16th and G'town to me.

Am I happy, no. I wanted more oval tracks, but like I've said before I can deal with the economic realities of 2008.

[Spiderman]

I think you all have been dancing around a good point here, so let's boil it down a bit.

No one seems to be happy. The Champ Car guys don't think there are enough road/street courses and the IRL guys don't think there are enough ovals. That sounds like there was a pretty good compromise going on in the front office at 16th and G'town to me.

Am I happy, no. I wanted more oval tracks, but like I've said before I can deal with the economic realities of 2008.

I'm a former champcar boy and i have no problems with the ovals. But i would prefere more diversity among the ovals. If we have a 20 race schedule with 10 ovals, i would prefere, 3 superspeedways, 3 intermediate ovals, 2 one mile ovales and 2 ovals shorter than a mile with different banking. That would be ideal.
And the other 10 races should be 4 road races, 4 street racers and 2 airport races. That would be fun to watch...

[indycool]

Ken,

1. Yes, there seems to be considerable consternation about Nashville not being there. I attended the Nashville race a couple of times and enjoyed myself. Oval people want Phoenix and Michigan, ironically, the same two tracks which had their second races taken away from them by CART in 1989. And I'm sure the IRL would run all three if it and the promoters and sponsors and TV could strike a bargain. That's the "biz" part that hasn't come together.

2. Yes, it's ovalcentric. As long as the Indianapolis 500 is on the schedule, that tips the scales. As Chuck and DD said, they'd prefer more ovals, just like there are some who'd prefer more road courses.

IMO, the whole exercise of the split and all the forums which have cropped up with this strange critter called the Internet has its roots in road racing fans vs. oval fans and vice versa. It's been going on WITHOUT the Internet for 35-40 years, at least. And it'll probably go on for another 35-40.

[SarahFan]

Ken,

1. Yes, there seems to be considerable consternation about Nashville not being there. I attended the Nashville race a couple of times and enjoyed myself. Oval people want Phoenix and Michigan, ironically, the same two tracks which had their second races taken away from them by CART in 1989. And I'm sure the IRL would run all three if it and the promoters and sponsors and TV could strike a bargain. That's the "biz" part that hasn't come together.

.


oh...Ironically it's CARTS fault....of coarse, I mean really...why wouldn't be ...right?

[SarahFan]

Ken,



2. Yes, it's ovalcentric. As long as the Indianapolis 500 is on the schedule, that tips the scales. As Chuck and DD said, they'd prefer more ovals, just like there are some who'd prefer more road courses.

0.

I suggest it no longer is.....Nascar for example is ovalcentric...35 or so ovals and twice a season you come across a pleasant suprise of a road coarse


the IRL though...you need to check from week to week race to race to see if the next race is a lefty or righty


for me thats great...I like the diversity...always have.....there is an interesting thread on TF right now about what 5 road/street coarses would you pick to stay on the schedule.....My Answer: a better and more appropriate question is which 5 ovals....

so based on your answer IC....as long as IMS is on the schedule nothing else really matters...?

[indycool]

Ken,

Don't put words in my mouth. I did NOT say it's CART's fault. Read the post.

Yes, there's merit to your definition of "ovalcentric," that NASCAR is much more ovalcentric than the IRL. Very true.

As I said before, this is the never-ending war of words of oval preference vs. road course preference.

[SarahFan]

not putting words in your mouth....... Your the one who brought an orrellavant cart from 20 years ago into the discussion

And you continue to discount..... Nay ignore.... Antons entire reason for the creation of the irl

[weeflyonthewall]

DD....IC...or anyone else....?

IYO is the IRL still 'Ovalcentric'?

More Indycentric than oval centric IMO.


Ken,

1. Yes, there seems to be considerable consternation about Nashville not being there. I attended the Nashville race a couple of times and enjoyed myself. Oval people want Phoenix and Michigan, ironically, the same two tracks which had their second races taken away from them by CART in 1989. And I'm sure the IRL would run all three if it and the promoters and sponsors and TV could strike a bargain. That's the "biz" part that hasn't come together.

2. Yes, it's ovalcentric. As long as the Indianapolis 500 is on the schedule, that tips the scales. As Chuck and DD said, they'd prefer more ovals, just like there are some who'd prefer more road courses.

IMO, the whole exercise of the split and all the forums which have cropped up with this strange critter called the Internet has its roots in road racing fans vs. oval fans and vice versa. It's been going on WITHOUT the Internet for 35-40 years, at least. And it'll probably go on for another 35-40.

Oval people want Phoenix? Which oval people besides IC, DD? I personally hate PIR. That natural terrain road course northwest of Surprise, AZ would be nice when the weather cools down.

[SarahFan]

More Indycentric than oval centric IMO.



Oval people want Phoenix? Which oval people besides IC, DD? I personally hate PIR. That natural terrain road course northwest of Surprise, AZ would be nice when the weather cools down.

I really liked PIR....different corners, mixed with the dogleg made for interesting racing...imo

[Miatanut]

And you continue to discount..... Nay ignore.... Antons entire reason for the creation of the irl

Ken, remember, we learned recently, from Tony himself "When we sort of developed the idea for the Indy Racing League... we wanted it to be a diverse series, much like CART was at the time."

I'm still recovering from that one.

'We created it to be like what we already had.'

If that was the reason, then I'm still scratching my head about why we all went through this last 12 years.

[Miatanut]

The split had nothing to do with oval racing vs road racing. It was totally, completely, about who would control AOWR.

Shhh!
;)

[downtowndeco]

The split had nothing to do with oval racing vs road racing. It was totally, completley, about who would control AOWR.

In your opinion. It that were the case why did the IRL offer a product that was so completely different that CART for the first 8 or 9 years? 100% ovals vs a street/road mix? It was only when it became apparent to absolutely everyone (except KK, JF & the CW crowd) that there was not enough fans, sponsors, teams or drivers for two OW series did the IRL start to add road/street circuits.

Yes, in the end it became about power because there could be only one (series). BIMO, it didn't start off that way.

[Miatanut]

In your opinion. It that were the case why did the IRL offer a product that was so completely different that CART for the first 8 or 9 years? 100% ovals vs a street/road mix? It was only when it became apparent to absolutely everyone (except KK, JF & the CW crowd) that there was not enough fans, sponsors, teams or drivers for two OW series did the IRL start to add road/street circuits.

Yes, in the end it became about power because there could be only one (series). BIMO, it didn't start off that way.

Being among those who felt the announcement of the IRL was a direct attack on my favorite series, I don't think there was any doubt from day one that there weren't enough fans for two series. It was a question of which series it would be, and one series felt American open wheel racing should be about ovals.

The split is over, but I still think things were better when the gearheads were running the show. Kind if like the difference between an American car, built by companies run by financial and marketing people, as compared to a European or Japanese car, built by companies run by engineers. The company management does influence the nature of the product.

[SarahFan]

In your opinion. It that were the case why did the IRL offer a product that was so completely different that CART for the first 8 or 9 years? 100% ovals vs a street/road mix? It was only when it became apparent to absolutely everyone (except KK, JF & the CW crowd) that there was not enough fans, sponsors, teams or drivers for two OW series did the IRL start to add road/street circuits.

Yes, in the end it became about power because there could be only one (series). BIMO, it didn't start off that way.


one of the funniest posts ever written on this or any other forum..

way to go DD...thanks for the chuckle

[downtowndeco]

CART controlled the (viable) road tracks. TG had no where else to go for venues, teams and drivers. I'm not making any point here about who may or may not have been right or wrong. It was about control - on both sides. Apparantly no one had told the CART Board or TG about the history with geese and golden eggs.


You're telling me the reason the IRL didn't add road/street circuits sooner is that there weren't any to be had? And this is at the same time the IRL is running at any oval they can get a date, regardless of whether a crowd showed up or not? Horse pucky. The IRL was trying to create a product that was different than CART. They only started to add the road/street circuits when it became apparent there was no other option. They had to go for the jugular (CC's territory) at that point.

[downtowndeco]

one of the funniest posts ever written on this or any other forum..

way to go DD...thanks for the chuckle


Glad I could humor you. Now what part of my post do you disagree with?

[speeddurango]

CART controlled the (viable) road tracks. TG had no where else to go for venues, teams and drivers. I'm not making any point here about who may or may not have been right or wrong. It was about control - on both sides. Apparantly no one had told the CART Board or TG about the history with geese and golden eggs.

No, CART did not have control over the road tracks, what they had was the contract, it was really a battle over the share of market. IRL had more chances staying on the oval so they didn't go over the border to compete with a much more competitive CART road course product, and when CART declined, they took their chances.

[indycool]

The IRL's first two road courses were Infineon and Watkins Glen, two tracks over which CART had no control and did not run, its brief history at The Glen in the early '80s not withstanding.

[SarahFan]

Glad I could humor you. Now what part of my post do you disagree with?


you know d...i could spell it out r.... e..... a ..... l..... s ...... l ..... o .... w ..and I still don't think you would get it..

but have faith...it's comedy

[Miatanut]

I don't know what you're talking about and I bet no matter what Gurney or Miatanut says, TG will eventually look out for his own interests.

That was a joke, right?

Just in case it wasn't: http://www.allamericanracers.com/cart_white-paper.html

Reading it, you will see that things have come back to the way they were 30 years ago.

[garyshell]

The split had nothing to do with oval racing vs road racing. It was totally, completley, about who would control AOWR.


In your opinion. It that were the case why did the IRL offer a product that was so completely different that CART for the first 8 or 9 years? 100% ovals vs a street/road mix? It was only when it became apparent to absolutely everyone (except KK, JF & the CW crowd) that there was not enough fans, sponsors, teams or drivers for two OW series did the IRL start to add road/street circuits.

Yes, in the end it became about power because there could be only one (series). BIMO, it didn't start off that way.

Oh please. I am sure even "King" George would agree that it was about who would control AOWR. He said as much, when the IRL was formed. He openly disagreed with the direction CART was headed in, because he felt that direction was detrimental to the 500 and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. (I disagree with that premise, but...) He wanted to influence that direction. Since he was not able to influence CART, which was controlled by the teams, his options were limited. If he wanted to exert influence, he felt he pretty much had to start a new series. I think he knew that there was only room all along for one series. I think we all knew that. I think to quickly grab a portion of that single pool of sponsors, fans, teams etc. a way to differentiate his series had to be found.

Gary

[pits4me]

You're telling me the reason the IRL didn't add road/street circuits sooner is that there weren't any to be had? And this is at the same time the IRL is running at any oval they can get a date, regardless of whether a crowd showed up or not? Horse pucky. The IRL was trying to create a product that was different than CART. They only started to add the road/street circuits when it became apparent there was no other option. They had to go for the jugular (CC's territory) at that point.

What a load of trollup. TG did everything he could to undermine CART and ChampCar. It had nothing to do with which series was stronger or weaker and more to do with attracting a fan base.

When Toyota left, TG had to reach deep into his bag of tricks. Especially when CC dropped its last oval race. It was becoming increasingly clear, TG's plan for an Indy centric oval centric motor racing business model was failing. Red Buls departure and switch to CC was the awakening TG needed.

At least CC made the right moves with Atlantics and the DP01. We still have to watch those ugly Dallara's for two more years.

[indycool]

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

And as far as the DP-01 goes, the spending of cubic dollars on that may well have been the final nail in CC's continuance.

[Chris R]

Any denial that this was an out and out power struggle from day one is pretty unrealistic....

There are many reasons that the IRL started with all ovals - but I do not think any of the major reasons had to do with some philosophical preference for ovals... TG simply used the circle track contingent to start building his power base. He built a coalition of fellow CART detractors and very cannily crafted the IRL in a way to garner their support of what he correctly perceived to be the most vocal of the detractors - the circle track guys....

Face it, if he had said that he just wanted control of the sport because he wanted it, nobody would have supported him - he had to make people believe he was doing it for them.....

This was a very shrewd political move from a guy who is probably not as dumb as we like to believe....

I think it is interesting that he, in-turn, tried to bring the even shrewder France family into the coalition by combining the circle track open wheelers with the circle track tin-toppers - that is where he overstepped his abilities and let the proverbial fox into the hen house to really devastate AOWR. I suspect if ISC had never been a part of his coalition that there was a stronger possibility for both series to survive (although maybe no thrive) on divergent paths.....

Interestingly, now that the economic outlook is somewhat dimmer - the IRL is actually in a better position to grow than NASCAR - will be interesting to see how it plays out....

[Chris R]

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

And as far as the DP-01 goes, the spending of cubic dollars on that may well have been the final nail in CC's continuance.

once the "war" was on what was CART to do? Even though CART's own stupidity and short-sightedness was a large contributory factor to the beginning of this "war" - there is little doubt that TG was the initial aggressor and the formation of the IRL was his opening attack....

I think you are right about the DP-01 - in hindsight, CCWS was in no position to do that car, it was a fools errand. Given that history lesson, as much as I would like to see a new Indycar ASAP - the IRL needs to get their house in order before they drop the $$ on a new car....

[Rex Monaco]

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

Yes, CART fought back. But what would you do when the traditions of Indy were thrown out in all out declaration of war on your series?

In hindsight, CART should have taken the battle to the place that started it, Indy. They would have done much more damage to the break away series by drinking their milk and placing their Indy 500 on the CART schedule.

[garyshell]

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.


No one is suggesting they didn't. The point downtowndeco made was that the IRL was not created to wrangle control of AOWR. That is just pure BS.

Gary

[indycool]

Whatever.......the idea that one played fair and one didn't is an idea I won't buy.

But I agree that CART could've stopped the IRL right in its tracks by running Disney World and Phoenix in 1996, going to Indy as part of the 25, taking most of the prize money and running the IRL's smaller teams out of the sport.

Gary, pits4, by omission, suggested it above.

In any case, none of it applies now.

[garyshell]

Yes, CART fought back. But what would you do when the traditions of Indy were thrown out in all out declaration of war on your series?

In hindsight, CART should have taken the battle to the place that started it, Indy. They would have done much more damage to the break away series by drinking their milk and placing their Indy 500 on the CART schedule.


Fought back? That implies that they waited until the IRL was formed. I think the war started before that, back when "King" George demanded a seat on the CART board. I think CART started pushing back then, if not before.

Gary

[garyshell]

Whatever.......the idea that one played fair and one didn't is an idea I won't buy.

But I agree that CART could've stopped the IRL right in its tracks by running Disney World and Phoenix in 1996, going to Indy as part of the 25, taking most of the prize money and running the IRL's smaller teams out of the sport.

In any case, none of it applies now.


Nor will I buy into that idea that either side played "fair". And yep, tis all water over the proverbial dam.

Gary