Rumblings from Down Under

[Rollo]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/v8s-have-run-race/2008/07/26/1216492803498.html


The kit car would be rear-wheel drive and would take a World Touring Car Championship-specification 2.0-litre engine, petrol or diesel, of about 280 horsepower with limited telemetry. An approved body package and small wings would go over the chassis, with composite panels used where possible to save crash costs.

It would appear that time is catching up with the dinosaurs of Australian Motorsport the V8 Supercars, when even motoring writers are calling for a rethink of the sport itself. The Ford and Holden on track now share precisely zero components with the road going cars save for a passing resemblance in the shells (because the VE Commodore and the new FG Falcon both exceed the maximum size dimensions of the category), so the question of relevance is now being asked.

2L is a sensible size to be going motor racing as the rest of the world has known for years. Currently the highest selling car in Australia apart from the Toyota Hilux is the Corolla, not the lunkmobiles currently whizzing around in the V8s at the moment.

Personally I hope that Oz does adopt WTCC regs, because that might mean that foreign competitors might be tempted to come play in the backyard again.

[Abo]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/v8s-have-run-race/2008/07/26/1216492803498.html



It would appear that time is catching up with the dinosaurs of Australian Motorsport the V8 Supercars, when even motoring writers are calling for a rethink of the sport itself. The Ford and Holden on track now share precisely zero components with the road going cars save for a passing resemblance in the shells (because the VE Commodore and the new FG Falcon both exceed the maximum size dimensions of the category), so the question of relevance is now being asked.

2L is a sensible size to be going motor racing as the rest of the world has known for years. Currently the highest selling car in Australia apart from the Toyota Hilux is the Corolla, not the lunkmobiles currently whizzing around in the V8s at the moment.

Personally I hope that Oz does adopt WTCC regs, because that might mean that foreign competitors might be tempted to come play in the backyard again.

I'd prefer to keep them V8 :( Love that sound, it'd be a shame to lose it.

*And*, you're bitching about the current V8's sharing zero components with their roadgoing versions. It will be exactly the same state of affairs with what is being proposed in the article. If it's going to have a standardised chassis then that's not exactly going to be in all the road cars. Neither is the standardised technical package, or the composite body panels. What's left? The engine...

It's not even going to be a kind of manufacturer-backed silhouette racing either with a single chassis because the body shape won't match the road cars.

[MAX_THRUST]

Super touring regs were used previously and the series bombed didn't it. I know Bathurst the same with 2ltr engine cars.

Maybe a rethink on fuel and keep the beasts, but make them more like the road going versions. Secondly most people who watch V8s watch it because of the cars not because they are toyota Corollas. Not saying your wrong though....

[AndySpeed]

I think Australian Super Touring was in competition with the Australian Touring Car Championship at the time though.

There's only one touring car series in Australia at the moment?

[Iain]

Super touring regs were used previously and the series bombed didn't it. I know Bathurst the same with 2ltr engine cars.


They had a good few seasons with the ST regs, a championship Alan Gow had a hand in. Plenty of ex-factory cars from the UK and Europe made their way to Australia for it.

I hope they don't go 2 litre though, to us over here, it's so different to watch something like the V8s on TV, when all we've ever had here are 2 litre cars.

Does it matter if they share components with the roadcars? Your average Ford or Holden fan will support them whether they do or not surely?

[wedge]

I think Australian Super Touring was in competition with the Australian Touring Car Championship at the time though.

There's only one touring car series in Australia at the moment?

There were 2 Bathurst 1000 in the same years in the late 90s. More fans turned up for the V8s than Super Touring.

Keep the V8s! It's the best touring car series in the world!

[old friend]

Isn't that the point though. If they are bespoke race cars (no road parts) then it isn't a true touring car series. Its a pretend touring car series that resemble road cars....Fun Cup anyone!

[Eurotech]

yh!

but why not have a class for the V8s and a seperate class for privateers to run S2000 cars?

[Rollo]

I think to some degree that there is a little bit if future proofing in the works. Come 2010 when the Falcon is due for a model replacement, there's a 60% chance that it won't be forthcoming. Ford Australia have already announced that the in-line 6 is to be shelved and that the Focus will be built from late 2009. With petrol prices certainly to get worse, the chances of there not actually being a Falcon are quite a lot.

Holden have protected themselves to a degree by trying to export to Commodore to the USA but again, if petrol prices kill the viability of it as well, then there'd be none of them either.

[PDS]

yh!

but why not have a class for the V8s and a seperate class for privateers to run S2000 cars?

The speed difference would be so vast. Like putting a Mini Cooper class in the BTCC!

Why not do what what the DTM do.. Allow older cars (that are running in the Fujitsu Championship) to compete in the main V8 Championship with a weight allowance.

There are 30 cars listed in the V8 Championship and 37 points scoring cars in the Fujitsu Series.

Not exactly struggling for competitors!

[Eurotech]

The speed difference would be so vast. Like putting a Mini Cooper class in the BTCC!

Which is why I said SEPERATE Class.

It would only be like GT2 against LMP1 in the LMS

[racer69]

when all we've ever had here are 2 litre cars.

To be fair the BTCC had 'horsepower' cars prior to 1991. Cars like the Ford Sierra RS500, Rover Vitesse, even a Holden Commodore has won a BTCC round.



The speed difference would be so vast. Like putting a Mini Cooper class in the BTCC!

Time was when the Bathurst 1000 featured 64 starters, from V8 Commodore's & Falcons at the front of the grid, all the way down to 1600cc Toyota Corolla's at the tail of the field. Made it all much more exciting :)

[PDS]

Which is why I said SEPERATE Class.

Rather have a SEPERATE race!

It would only be like GT2 against LMP1 in the LMS Just reminded me why I don't like Sportscar racing!

Time was when the Bathurst 1000 featured 64 starters, from V8 Commodore's & Falcons at the front of the grid, all the way down to 1600cc Toyota Corolla's at the tail of the field. Made it all much more exciting :)

Great at Bathurst, plenty of room. Can you see it working at Queensland Raceway or Sandown Park?

[Iain]

To be fair the BTCC had 'horsepower' cars prior to 1991. Cars like the Ford Sierra RS500, Rover Vitesse, even a Holden Commodore has won a BTCC round.

I know that, but it's all I've ever seen in person since I started spectating in 1994. :)

[Eurotech]

Rather have a SEPERATE race!


Just reminded me why I don't like Sportscar racing!


Great at Bathurst, plenty of room. Can you see it working at Queensland Raceway or Sandown Park?

Theres no reason to be so negative. having two classes would mean there would be a cheap alternative to Aussie motor sport and you would have bigger grids.

oh yeah and by the way, have you ever heard of BLUE FLAGS! :confused:

[racer69]

Great at Bathurst, plenty of room. Can you see it working at Queensland Raceway or Sandown Park?

Plenty of room at Bathurst? The place is so narrow in places it is amazing it still holds an FIA circuit licence.

It would be much safer at Sandown or Queensland Raceway as the tracks are wide enough for multi-class racing. (You've also got to include grid densities).

I was getting at the variety of cars in the race though, not the total number

[bt52b]

With the decline in manufacturer support, the road car link is less important.

Not sure S2000 is cheaper or will be as cheap as the route V8S is going down.

They could still use a smaller capacity V8 + turbo to produce the power and still keep the noise. S2000 are about 280bhp. S2000 will still be about 280bhp with turbo, however V8S are about 650bhp.

[PDS]

Plenty of room at Bathurst? The place is so narrow in places it is amazing it still holds an FIA circuit licence.

It would be much safer at Sandown or Queensland Raceway as the tracks are wide enough for multi-class racing. (You've also got to include grid densities).

I was getting at the variety of cars in the race though, not the total number
I wasn't talking about the width of the Bathurst track... correct me if I am wrong, but can't you have more starters at Bathurst than somewhere like Sandown or Queensland?

And surely if you ask any true V8 Supercar fan, would they really be happy with a smaller class on the track at the same time?

[ShiftingGears]

What really needs to happen with V8 supercars is getting rid of those massive wings that prevent the cars actually passing each other. The fact that the V8s are stuck racing at tracks that are too small and too tight only compounds the issue.

The majority of the venues are shorter than Monaco.

[Rollo]

With the decline in manufacturer support, the road car link is less important.

Ford is currently withdrawing funding to another 6 teams for 2009. This means that both SBR and 888 will be in the wilderness as far as manufacturers $$s are concerned. The point being that without manufacturer support, there simply aren't the cars to go racing in the first place.

Didn't Opel have a totally marvellous season in the DTM in 2007?

[racer69]

I wasn't talking about the width of the Bathurst track... correct me if I am wrong, but can't you have more starters at Bathurst than somewhere like Sandown or Queensland?


The Bathurst grid density is set at 55, Sandown from memory is 48.


And surely if you ask any true V8 Supercar fan, would they really be happy with a smaller class on the track at the same time?

Back in the day when the "Ford vs Holden" rivalry bandied around so much by the V8Supercar fraternity was established, you had a grid full of big & little cars, and you had Chrysler in the main class with Ford & Holden as well. If any 'true' V8Supercar fan thought along those lines as having no others cars on track, then they have a very selective memory.

[Eurotech]

What really needs to happen with V8 supercars is getting rid of those massive wings that prevent the cars actually passing each other. The fact that the V8s are stuck racing at tracks that are too small and too tight only compounds the issue.

The majority of the venues are shorter than Monaco.

The solution is to have a V8 Supercar World Series racing on circuits like Lime Rock, Spa, and maybe the Nunburbring. Now that would be impressive! ;)

[Rollo]

The Bathurst grid density is set at 55, Sandown from memory is 48.

Should be 55. The people who decide these things in their wisdom have decreed that we get a better days' racing by only having 32 starters.

[racer69]

Should be 55. The people who decide these things in their wisdom have decreed that we get a better days' racing by only having 32 starters.

Or in this years case 29 :rolleyes:

[rah]

I would hate to see them go back to 2l engines. True the cars are nothing like road cars, but what touring car is these days. I think the V8 are one of the best racing series in the world. Maybe you could loose the wings to open up the racing a bit more, but is that the problem, or is the problem that the sport is supported by two very large car companies that are loosing truck loads of cash every quarter? Maybe we need some more makes in the series.

[BDunnell]

Surely rising fuel prices won't do much to boost the sales of the big saloons the V8 Supercars are based on, no matter how loosely. There then starts to be a question as to how relevant the championship is.

[Rollo]

or is the problem that the sport is supported by two very large car companies that are loosing truck loads of cash every quarter? Maybe we need some more makes in the series.

Um yes. Magna V8 Supercar anyone? The demise of Mitsubishi through lack of marketing opportunities (the 380 is still better than FG Falcon and VE Commodore). The refusal to allow Mitsubishi and Toyota build a V8 Supercar on the basis that they don't build a "5L pushrod V8, four door saloon in Australia" and then quietly remove the regulation after both Ford and Holden cease to do so. Holden killing the 12-hour the second time around?

We've been looking at mock-ups for 10 years and now that Falcon is more or less doomed, something needs to be done.