Potential IRL TV partners want Indy only! Long Beach?

[pits4me]

Many people knocked ChampCar for their revenue sharing (time buy) to secure broadcasting of their races but it looks like the merged series is destined for a similar scenario.

Potential IRL TV partners want Indy only

By JOHN OURAND and TERRY LEFTON
Staff writers - Sports Business Journal
Published July 28, 2008 :

Conventional wisdom was that a unified open-wheel racing series would result in a more valuable media property. But five months after the IRL and Champ Car joined together, the series is seeing what has been its biggest asset — media rights — struggling to maintain value.

Both incumbent partner ABC/ESPN and suitor Fox Sports have told the circuit that they are interested in broadcasting only the Indianapolis 500. But the IRL is trying to sell a package that includes at least four other races for broadcast as well.

ESPN and Fox also have told the IRL that they would not pay the same rights fee that the IRL now gets from the Disney companies, about $10 million a year.

ESPN holds the rights for next year, but has given the IRL the green light to shop them. ESPN executives say they lose money on the deal, which has ABC broadcasting six races in addition to the Indianapolis 500, with the rest of the 17-race series going to ESPN or ESPN2.

ESPN has been pitching the IRL on a different model, possibly based on revenue sharing. So far, the IRL is not interested in such an arrangement.

While Fox has had some discussions with the series, Versus has shown the most interest in obtaining a package, which would not include the marquee races, according to several sources.

Meanwhile, the IRL continues its search for a title sponsor, which it needs to add support and credibility to its TV efforts. Sources said that several companies had looked at the deal, including William Rast Jeans, Kodak and Subway, some beverage companies, as well as a company from the financial sector. Izod also considered it before signing on as the official apparel sponsor.

The original asking price for title rights was close to $10 million per year, but sources said it could now be had for $4 million to $5 million, with an additional seven-figure media commitment.

“They have to get away from selling themselves against NASCAR and be sold as more of a lifestyle play that can deliver and win the best demos in its time slot,” said Chris Lencheski of motorsports agency Ski & Co., New York. “If they do that and head for strategy where IRL can be seen on any screen any time, and it is reasonably priced, then they’ll have something very salable.”

Staff writer Michael Smith contributed to this report.

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/59646

I remember when the major networks refused to telecast soccer so the leagues partnered with national UHF broadcasters. The opportunity here is to begin discussions with Univision and Telemundo about Spanish language broadcasts of all races.

[Cart750hp]

I think you are mis-reading the concept here, Pits.

TV Package is not a cheap way of advertising or selling a product. Do you think NASCAR didn't go through this? Even these other major leagues sports had or have to go through that expense. Remember CC? Yeah, their lies caught up with the management, that's why. IRL needs to find out what is their product and who they are selling to. The result...they'll be able to know who are these groups or individuals buying the product. IRL needs to reach the fans instead of the other way around. That could mean going from ESPN/2 to NBC or CBS or Fox or ABC itself. That's the reason why MLS went, ESPN and Telemundo. So as NASCAR. They went to ESPN and FOX (bunch of republicans). Great move, don't you think? IRL also needs to use I500's history to influence the sponsors. But this is where IRL beats CC in years. Although tons of IRL haters mentioned how IRL races were boring and stuff.....how did they manage to shut CC operation down and buy it? The answer is: Money and Competition. The IRL has the teams, drivers and history that could very well be knocks NASCAR out of #1 most watched pro-racing in the world. CC had its chance but they lost it.

(Champ Car is gone because of the management and the fans that were too fool to believe them. Thank god they're both gone.)

[MDS]

The IRL has the teams, drivers and history that could very well be knocks NASCAR out of #1 most watched pro-racing in the world.

First of all I'm fairly certain Formula one is the most watched motorsport in the world. Second, in no world will the IRL ever overtake NASCAR. Look at the NASCAR product and then look at the IRL product. The Iowa Indy race will never draw 80,000 in attendance and a 7.1 rating like Vegas did. Just won't happen. Not in our live times.

[Cart750hp]

First of all I'm fairly certain Formula one is the most watched motorsport in the world.

Well, that's not what the LA Times said about F1 last year and the year before. I also couldn't believe that NASCAR had surpassed F1's popularity and fans according to the times.


Second, in no world will the IRL ever overtake NASCAR. Look at the NASCAR product and then look at the IRL product. The Iowa Indy race will never draw 80,000 in attendance and a 7.1 rating like Vegas did. Just won't happen. Not in our live times.

That's exactly how F1, CC and IRL reacted about NASCAR 15 years ago.

Too much politics and money involved in these sports so I won't join you. Whatever is happening today could mean nothing tomorrow.

[-Helix-]

I say go with a new broadcast partner. Everyone complains about how much ESPN sucks anyway.

Do what the NHL did when ESPN decided to offer far less for a new contract. Go to a new network that will actually promote the sport and give it airtime. ESPN has put all it's cookies in the NASCAR basket and IndyCar will never be able to compete.

So if ESPN doesn't have room for IndyCar, just take it somewhere else.

Maybe an NBC/USA deal? or NBC/Versus? or CBS/whatever?

This could be a really good thing for IndyCar. Versus would have no problem airing Indy Lights (LIVE), Qualifying, Practices, Pre- and Post-Race shows. They could also do weekly wrap-up shows or tech shows like they do for NASCAR on SPEED.

ESPN treated the NHL like crap, and as a hockey fan who watches Versus all the time I know that they would do an amazing job with IndyCar. They give hockey 20 times the airtime ESPN ever did.

The only downside is that Versus isn't as big of a name and the casual fans might not be able to find the race or even know that it's on TV. But the ratings for the NHL on Versus have been growing every year as more fans realize that it exists and the same would probably happen for the ICS. I don't think ICS has very many casual fans anyway. Casual race fans in America watch NASCAR and only NASCAR.

So I say dump ESPN. Who needs them.

[Rex Monaco]

[i]Conventional wisdom was that a unified open-wheel racing series would result in a more valuable media property. But five months after...

It took 11 years to break it. Who in their right mind expected it to be fixed in 5 months? It'll take 5 years minimum.

[fugariracing]

I say go with a new broadcast partner. Everyone complains about how much ESPN sucks anyway.

Do what the NHL did when ESPN decided to offer far less for a new contract. Go to a new network that will actually promote the sport and give it airtime. ESPN has put all it's cookies in the NASCAR basket and IndyCar will never be able to compete.

So if ESPN doesn't have room for IndyCar, just take it somewhere else.

Maybe an NBC/USA deal? or NBC/Versus? or CBS/whatever?

This could be a really good thing for IndyCar. Versus would have no problem airing Indy Lights (LIVE), Qualifying, Practices, Pre- and Post-Race shows. They could also do weekly wrap-up shows or tech shows like they do for NASCAR on SPEED.

ESPN treated the NHL like crap, and as a hockey fan who watches Versus all the time I know that they would do an amazing job with IndyCar. They give hockey 20 times the airtime ESPN ever did.

The only downside is that Versus isn't as big of a name and the casual fans might not be able to find the race or even know that it's on TV. But the ratings for the NHL on Versus have been growing every year as more fans realize that it exists and the same would probably happen for the ICS. I don't think ICS has very many casual fans anyway. Casual race fans in America watch NASCAR and only NASCAR.

So I say dump ESPN. Who needs them.

The folks over at TF are hung up on the idea that Versus is a great idea, but it is not in many markets/cable carriers. Supposedly Comcast is the only one that carries it, although I have heard certain Time Warner markets have it as well.

ESPN is a catch-22 situation. There isn't much exposure in comparison to NASCAR, which is true. Once they got in bed w/the cabs it was over as far as ICS promotion was concerned.

But at the same pt, ESPN is the pre-eminent sports network in today's market, whether you like it or not. The exposure reaches to three possible networks, plus ESPN.com (oreo), the Bottom Line and SportsCenter. It's never much but any little bit, at this stage of the game, is valuable.

If IRL was to go to another network, you can all but guarantee the ESPN promotion would go nil and there would be no mention on SC. Production value is poor and the on-air talent is more the problem w/the mouse than the network itself, IMO.

[-Helix-]

The folks over at TF are hung up on the idea that Versus is a great idea, but it is not in many markets/cable carriers. Supposedly Comcast is the only one that carries it, although I have heard certain Time Warner markets have it as well.

ESPN is a catch-22 situation. There isn't much exposure in comparison to NASCAR, which is true. Once they got in bed w/the cabs it was over as far as ICS promotion was concerned.

But at the same pt, ESPN is the pre-eminent sports network in today's market, whether you like it or not. The exposure reaches to three possible networks, plus ESPN.com (oreo), the Bottom Line and SportsCenter. It's never much but any little bit, at this stage of the game, is valuable.

If IRL was to go to another network, you can all but guarantee the ESPN promotion would go nil and there would be no mention on SC. Production value is poor and the on-air talent is more the problem w/the mouse than the network itself, IMO.

I agree with your points, but I just tend to look at it from a more personal point of view.

When the NHL went to Versus I knew not as many people were going to watch and the casual fans would disappear, but I didn't care because I knew I was going to get much better hockey coverage.

Same goes for IndyCar. ESPN may have the means to market IndyCar and to create those casual fans, but in the end how much is that worth? (Especially when ESPN doesn't even take advantage of those things) I think I would rather have the better TV coverage.

But maybe I'm just selfish.

[Jag_Warrior]

First of all I'm fairly certain Formula one is the most watched motorsport in the world.

It is. According to Initiative Sports Futures, the 2006 Brazilian Grand Prix (alone) was watched by 154 million people globally. It was the fourth most watched sporting event in the world that year. According to ING, the annual global viewership total for Formula One in 2007 was approximately 850 million - and viewership is rising. Globally, F1 is still second only to futbol/soccer in terms of total and average viewership.

If the L.A. Times somehow had NASCAR Sprint Cup getting higher global TV numbers than F1, then NASCAR would also have to be ahead of the NFL (globally and in the U.S). That's not true either. The L.A. Times writer was probably talking about the U.S., where NASCAR is more popular and more watched than F1... or any other form of motorsport.

On ratings, the IRL's ratings are closer to the Craftsman Truck Series than NASCAR Sprint Cup. According to SportsBusiness Journal, the IRL's season average rating last year was a .95. Speed Channel is averaging a .90 Nielsen with the CTS this year (the viewership numbers and share not taken into account). The Busch Series averaged a 1.5 Nielsen and 1.9 million viewers per race in 2007. Fox reported that NASCAR Sprint Cup averaged a 5.8 Nielsen and 9.7 million viewers.

Whether it's Joyce Julius data or Nielsen data, the numbers are the numbers. If it's true that the IRL's title sponsorship asking price has dropped by 50% (to about the same level as Kobalt seems to be negotiating for the NASCAR Truck Series), and ABC/ESPN has encouraged the IRL to begin shopping early for a better TV deal if it so chooses, that suggests that Brian France probably isn't losing any sleep just yet.

[Jag_Warrior]

ESPN may have the means to market IndyCar and to create those casual fans, but in the end how much is that worth?

$ponsor$.

[-Helix-]

$ponsor$.

I don't think it would make that much of a difference. Sponsors are hard to come by on ESPN already, it's not like there's a ton of interested partners that would suddenly disappear because of a broadcast station change.

Versus I assume would probably offer a lot more money than ESPN is willing to give anyway to balance out the cost of any sponsorship losses.

Though I watch hockey on Versus all the time and I never see any arena with empty boards and there's always plenty of commercials.

[MAX_THRUST]

Decent UK and European coverage would be sensible so they can pick up all the old Champ Car fans that have been left with out a series to watch.

Also sort out a season review DVD this year, or who ever does show the series next year make sure the IRL has the rights to sell a DVD so those of us who aint gonna see the racing this year at least have an oppotunity to watch some events.

[BobGarage]

Decent UK and European coverage would be sensible so they can pick up all the old Champ Car fans that have been left with out a series to watch.

Also sort out a season review DVD this year, or who ever does show the series next year make sure the IRL has the rights to sell a DVD so those of us who aint gonna see the racing this year at least have an oppotunity to watch some events.

UK TV coverage isn't going to change. Sky and the IRL signed a three year extension to the contract at teh start fo the year.

What they need is decent replays on terrestrial TV. Channel 5's two weeks delayed 30 minutes highlights at 3 in the morning needs to change!

[Chris R]

I wonder if the IRL needs to take a step back and not worry so much about a traditional TV package - go all internet with a handful of marquee events on traditional TV - (Indy, Long Beach for sure maybe something else)... I am thinking that one of the ways to create value is to create an artificial shortage... also, AOWr has traditionally been a little "counterculture" - that is to say the fans enjoy being fans of a somewhat but not totally obscure sport.... - so it may b time to get creative and so internet---

just throwing it out there for discussion please don't blast me.... :D

[Wilf]

I wonder if the IRL needs to take a step back and not worry so much about a traditional TV package - go all internet with a handful of marquee events on traditional TV - (Indy, Long Beach for sure maybe something else)... I am thinking that one of the ways to create value is to create an artificial shortage... also, AOWr has traditionally been a little "counterculture" - that is to say the fans enjoy being fans of a somewhat but not totally obscure sport.... - so it may b time to get creative and so internet---

just throwing it out there for discussion please don't blast me.... :D

The teams can't get enough sponsorships now even though they have network coverage. I wouldn't want to float that idea to the teams unless I was wearing a lead suit; it will get a nuclear reaction.

[nigelred5]

Versus, Spike, what's the difference? Here we go again.

[Chris R]

Versus, Spike, what's the difference? Here we go again.

that is my point with the internet thing..... bad tv may be worse than low exposure cutting edge technology....(it may not be worse too)

I think for AOWR to get back on its feet and think about becoming a serious commercial contender again, it needs to go back to its roots and really promote itself as a place for the wealthy to get their kicks being car owners etc. what this sport needs is a good flow of moderate "sugar-daddies" who love racing - people like Lindsay Hopkins, Jim Gilmore, Mike Boyle, JC Agajanian(sp), Pat Patrick, Sherman Armstrong, Jerry O'Connell, Jim Kimberley, John Zink, Tom Monaghan, Teddy Yip, Ted Field and any more most, if not all, of these guys were personally wealthy and did racing for fun - they took sponsors when they came up but often put their own companies on the cars without much thought to the return on investment.

Perhaps there is a need for some sort of cost cap so that someone can reasonably expect to be competitive based on their smarts more than their wallet.... If you attract this type of person - the TV package is much less important....

[weeflyonthewall]

I say go with a new broadcast partner. Everyone complains about how much ESPN sucks anyway.

So I say dump ESPN. Who needs them.

Remember RPM2Nite? When that program was killed, ABC/ESPN's priorities changed.

[pits4me]

I think you are mis-reading the concept here, Pits.

Not at all, just making an observation.


TV Package is not a cheap way of advertising or selling a product. Do you think NASCAR didn't go through this? Even these other major leagues sports had or have to go through that expense. Remember CC? Yeah, their lies caught up with the management, that's why. IRL needs to find out what is their product and who they are selling to. The result...they'll be able to know who are these groups or individuals buying the product. IRL needs to reach the fans instead of the other way around. That could mean going from ESPN/2 to NBC or CBS or Fox or ABC itself. That's the reason why MLS went, ESPN and Telemundo. So as NASCAR. They went to ESPN and FOX (bunch of republicans). Great move, don't you think? IRL also needs to use I500's history to influence the sponsors. But this is where IRL beats CC in years. Although tons of IRL haters mentioned how IRL races were boring and stuff.....how did they manage to shut CC operation down and buy it? The answer is: Money and Competition. The IRL has the teams, drivers and history that could very well be knocks NASCAR out of #1 most watched pro-racing in the world. CC had its chance but they lost it.

(Champ Car is gone because of the management and the fans that were too fool to believe them. Thank god they're both gone.)

The staff writers at the Sports Business Journal seem to have a better handle on the situation than you do. Your perception of history is far too simple. CC was just starting to get the TV situation worked out. Many were debating their motive to moving to ABC/ESPN in 2007. As sponsorship and advertizing revenue dwindled, companies became increasingly protective of where they showed allegiance. For a racing series to rely on revenue sharing to broadcast the races, they had better have the advertisers lined up. The IRL/ICS doen't have that foundation in place just yet. They need to take a very close look at their Indy-centric business model and avoid losing even more market share to the ALMS.

[Cart750hp]

Not at all, just making an observation.

Observation after 5 months of this "one-series"? What observation did you come up with?

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't think it would make that much of a difference. Sponsors are hard to come by on ESPN already, it's not like there's a ton of interested partners that would suddenly disappear because of a broadcast station change.

Versus I assume would probably offer a lot more money than ESPN is willing to give anyway to balance out the cost of any sponsorship losses.

I've already read this book.

What you'll have is team sponsors seeing that the exposure value won't be as high on a network like Versus, compared to ESPN or ABC. Sponsorships are based on exposure value, not what it costs to run a car - I can show you a farm that was paid for out of a NASCAR budget. The exposure value was there so no one seemed to care. There's a reason that Don Panoz pays to have a certain number of his ALMS races on network each year. He works to keep sponsors (and fans) happy.

Going to Versus (or Spike or G4TV) might be a good bottomline move for the IRL. I don't know. But that has nothing to do with what money goes to the teams from their sponsors. At best, the IRL might be able to provide higher subsidies after such a move. But if even 25% of the teams lost a primary or major associate sponsor because of this, that could easily amount to more than $10 million per season that would need to be made up by the IRL... just to keep the same cars on the track. And I don't think Versus (or any other network) is going to pay the IRL $10 million more in cash than ABC/ESPN is offering. Why would they?

But if the IRL thinks that Versus is the way to go, so be it. But like I said, I've read this book before. Only it was titled Spike.

[Osiris333]

Indycar needs to stay on ESPN if they can. That's going to be the only way to attract sponsors. If they don't, they'll start losing teams again and be back down to 18 cars in a couple years. Versus is a joke network. Even if they have to time buy, it's worth it. After all, what else is Tony going to do with that $30 mil he makes off the NASCAR race?

Maybe they should also consider buying a 1/2 hour weekly spot on ESPN to promote the series. Hell, if I was as rich as Tony George, I'd just buy Speed and add more Indycar programming.

It would also be cool to see reruns of races on HDNet during the week. Why not expose your product to the higher end market? In the end, that's who Indycar is going to appeal to anyway, once it gets back to being a high-Tec series rather than DanicaTV.

[Rex Monaco]

So as NASCAR. They went to ESPN and FOX (bunch of republicans). Great move, don't you think?

Fox has the top rated show on network TV, American Idol. It also has the top rated drama, House. And it has tv's longest running series, The Simpsons.

So I'm certain that it's more than a 'bunch of republicans' watching Fox. (If not, then the world better get ready for a 'bunch of republicans' texting their vote for their favorite candidate.)

And I don't think many people complain about the job that Fox does for NASCAR broadcasts. I'd say they raised the bar for NASCAR broadcasting.

[Rex Monaco]

Fox has the top rated show on network TV, American Idol. It also has the top rated drama, House. And it has tv's longest running series, The Simpsons.

And this week, it looks like a 'bunch of republicans' are watching the MLB - All Star Games (number 1 and 3 in ratings) and So You Think You Can Dance.

[BenRoethig]

Indycar needs to stay on ESPN if they can. That's going to be the only way to attract sponsors. If they don't, they'll start losing teams again and be back down to 18 cars in a couple years. Versus is a joke network. Even if they have to time buy, it's worth it. After all, what else is Tony going to do with that $30 mil he makes off the NASCAR race?

Maybe they should also consider buying a 1/2 hour weekly spot on ESPN to promote the series. Hell, if I was as rich as Tony George, I'd just buy Speed and add more Indycar programming.

It would also be cool to see reruns of races on HDNet during the week. Why not expose your product to the higher end market? In the end, that's who Indycar is going to appeal to anyway, once it gets back to being a high-Tec series rather than DanicaTV.

Speed is an extra package channel for post cable/satellite providers. Unless they can get a deal that includes NBC/USA they're best off where they're at. Fox/Speed and CBS/Spike would also have serious conflicts at the end of the season with the NFL.

[pits4me]

Observation after 5 months of this "one-series"? What observation did you come up with?

One need not turn a blind eye to what's been going on in the sporting world for the last 12 years. TV trends, sponsorship, VIP events, compensation, etc. are all in a paradigm shift.

The "one series" scenario doesn't even come into question except as the staff writers indicated, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that the US based open-wheel market should be a lot stronger without the fragmentation and conflict.

Hearing the value for a title sponsorship has dropped almost 60% in one year, demonstrates the expectation and return is a lot more complex these days. It's not just about TV eyeballs and attendance when it comes to building their brand or product loyalty. Slashed corporate entertainment budgets are a big component. So is the political correctness overkill in engineering and purchasing departments. No one can invest in relationship building anymore.

The retailers and their in-store race-participation promotions are equally important but open wheel has lost the advantage in retail equity. They lack the power to attract various brands as in the early years of Target and K-Mart. The same companies that normally advertise on TV.

Sponsors are even backing off aggressive licensed merchandise programs for fear the risk is greater than the reward.

[Miatanut]

I think it's a lot simpler than that.

The current offering is a product with very limited appeal to most of American open wheel's fan base of the last 30 years. That's why we see minimal improvement in attendance and TV ratings since the merger, and in many cases, declines.

Meanwhile, F1 is doing just great world-wide, and about like before in the US.

[pits4me]

F-1 showcases technology at mega-dollar budgets. US based open wheel has been dumbed down considerably. The surviving series is convinced fans want to see an emphasis on ovals even though Champ Car proved attendance was much stronger on road and street circuits.

[Miatanut]

The surviving series is convinced fans want to see an emphasis on ovals even though Champ Car proved attendance was much stronger on road and street circuits.

I agree. I think after a couple years of being the only game in town, if that pattern should hold, there will be some changes made.

[weeflyonthewall]

Change or lose more fans and sponsors to ALMS.

[BenRoethig]

F-1 showcases technology at mega-dollar budgets. US based open wheel has been dumbed down considerably. The surviving series is convinced fans want to see an emphasis on ovals even though Champ Car proved attendance was much stronger on road and street circuits.

There's a difference been dumbed down and kept at a point where the driver still has input. F1 has gotten to a point where you could put a chimp in a Ferrari and have them win the constructors championship. Maybe that's why europeans considering to be racing or something, but to us all it shows is that if you spend enough money and you qualify well you can buy a championship. The two F1 races I watched on Fox this year were abysmal. You couldn't even pass if you were significantly faster than the car in front of you.

[BenRoethig]

Change or lose more fans and sponsors to ALMS.

And lose the casual fan back to NASCAR. The road racing fan matters very little in the long run.

[downtowndeco]

The surviving series is convinced fans want to see an emphasis on ovals even though Champ Car proved attendance was much stronger on road and street circuits.

Simply not true.

First off attendance at the street festivals was always overstated to the point of being ridiculous. Secondly, many, many of the suppossed CCWS "fans" were nothing more than lookie loos checking out what was going on in their downtown. Zero share ratings proved that the festivals weren't turning these attendees into fans.

Road course attendance was also very marginal. The only time it improved was when they would run with ALMS.

CCWS attendance is an urban myth. It was never as great as some of you make it out to be. If it had been they'd still have the doors open.

Why then, should the IRL go to these types of tracks? Diversity. A balanced mix of ovals (small, medium & super speedway), road, street and airport. If attendance is not all it's cracked up to be at a couple of the tracks that's OK. The important thing is the basic product has diversity and integrity.

[Miatanut]

There's a difference been dumbed down and kept at a point where the driver still has input. F1 has gotten to a point where you could put a chimp in a Ferrari and have them win the constructors championship. Maybe that's why europeans considering to be racing or something, but to us all it shows is that if you spend enough money and you qualify well you can buy a championship. The two F1 races I watched on Fox this year were abysmal. You couldn't even pass if you were significantly faster than the car in front of you.
I can't believe we've seen some of the same races. With traction control gone, F1 has been completely transformed for me. It's no longer true you can put a chimp in it, unless you want it swapping ends out of every corner. With the spec American open wheel has been using this year, and both series the last few years, there has been an excess of grip over power, so the chimp could do a lot better in the American formula.

As for no passing, road racing will always be different from oval racing. It's like the difference between basketball and soccer. They are both trying to get the ball into the net, but with one, it's a lot harder and a goal is something to be savored.

[Miatanut]

Simply not true.

First off attendance at the street festivals was always overstated to the point of being ridiculous. Secondly, many, many of the suppossed CCWS "fans" were nothing more than lookie loos checking out what was going on in their downtown. Zero share ratings proved that the festivals weren't turning these attendees into fans.

Road course attendance was also very marginal. The only time it improved was when they would run with ALMS.

CCWS attendance is an urban myth. It was never as great as some of you make it out to be. If it had been they'd still have the doors open.

Why then, should the IRL go to these types of tracks? Diversity. A balanced mix of ovals (small, medium & super speedway), road, street and airport. If attendance is not all it's cracked up to be at a couple of the tracks that's OK. The important thing is the basic product has diversity and integrity.

CCWS attendance wasn't urban myth. Just go to motorsport.com/photos. The IRL would really pack them in in some places, particularly Texas, but on Friday and Saturday (when the race is on Sunday) there are never more than an handful of fans. CCWS fans would show up on Friday and Saturday, and they would always publish the three day attendance. To most IRL fans, qualifying is not something you watch. It's just a different perspective on motor racing.

[Jag_Warrior]

I can't believe we've seen some of the same races. With traction control gone, F1 has been completely transformed for me. It's no longer true you can put a chimp in it, unless you want it swapping ends out of every corner. With the spec American open wheel has been using this year, and both series the last few years, there has been an excess of grip over power, so the chimp could do a lot better in the American formula.

As for no passing, road racing will always be different from oval racing. It's like the difference between basketball and soccer. They are both trying to get the ball into the net, but with one, it's a lot harder and a goal is something to be savored.

I don't know of a time when there hasn't been a dominant team or two at the very top in F1. But I fully agree with you: this F1 season has been like no other in the past decade or so.

As for putting a chimp in the Ferrari F2008 and them still winning the Constructor's Title, they should put the Terror Twins (Danica and Marco) in for Kimi and Felipe. Somehow I don't think they'd win another race, much less a championship... of any sort.

This F1 season is turning out to be fantastic - and the increasing global TV ratings are there to show the fans' delight. Once the IRL figures out how to showcase the drama on the track, instead of the drama (queen) off the track, it might have a better shot of improving its situation among the general sports viewing public.

As for the IRL going to Versus, with only Indy on a broadcast over-air network, good luck with that. As our old pal Speedbump used to say, "Been there... done that!

[NickFalzone]

I rarely watch F1 but all I've heard about this season is Hamilton or a Ferrari, not sure that really speaks to a competitive field. As far as track attendance at road races, that's a pretty naive way to determine the success of a televised product. They could be playing to empty stands if it drew big tv ratings, but not the other way around. IRL ratings are marginally up this year over last, and that speaks much more to success of the series than counting at track attendance. BTW I also trust Nielsen ratings much more than some track promoter's claims.

[weeflyonthewall]

There's a difference been dumbed down and kept at a point where the driver still has input. F1 has gotten to a point where you could put a chimp in a Ferrari and have them win the constructors championship. Maybe that's why europeans considering to be racing or something, but to us all it shows is that if you spend enough money and you qualify well you can buy a championship. The two F1 races I watched on Fox this year were abysmal. You couldn't even pass if you were significantly faster than the car in front of you.

Are you watching the same Formula 1? The chimp comment is over the top. Some circuits like Monaco are narrower than others but Hamilton and Massa still find a way to get overtake and push a car to its limits. The averga spped of 124 mph they set in Hungary during qualy was blistering. X-CC driver Timo Glock had a great run today. Seabass is holding his own. The Princess would be lost at this level.

[weeflyonthewall]

As for putting a chimp in the Ferrari F2008 and them still winning the Constructor's Title, they should put the Terror Twins (Danica and Marco) in for Kimi and Felipe. Somehow I don't think they'd win another race, much less a championship... of any sort.

This F1 season is turning out to be fantastic - and the increasing global TV ratings are there to show the fans' delight. Once the IRL figures out how to showcase the drama on the track, instead of the drama (queen) off the track, it might have a better shot of improving its situation among the general sports viewing public.

As for the IRL going to Versus, with only Indy on a broadcast over-air network, good luck with that. As our old pal Speedbump used to say, "Been there... done that!

Thanks Jag. I can see Paul's big grin now. I think he'll be waiting at the pearly gates when TG gets there. Check list in hand.

[Cart750hp]

Fox has the top rated show on network TV, American Idol. It also has the top rated drama, House. And it has tv's longest running series, The Simpsons.

So I'm certain that it's more than a 'bunch of republicans' watching Fox. (If not, then the world better get ready for a 'bunch of republicans' texting their vote for their favorite candidate.)

And I don't think many people complain about the job that Fox does for NASCAR broadcasts. I'd say they raised the bar for NASCAR broadcasting.

Of course. That's why I said, it's a great move for NASCAR. However you look at it, great move.

[call_me_andrew]

So I'm certain that it's more than a 'bunch of republicans' watching Fox. (If not, then the world better get ready for a 'bunch of republicans' texting their vote for their favorite candidate.)

And I don't think many people complain about the job that Fox does for NASCAR broadcasts. I'd say they raised the bar for NASCAR broadcasting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascar_on_fox#Criticisms

Go on the NASCAR forum and ask about the pre-2001 coverage, and you'll hear plenty of stories about how much better it used to be.

And I think he meant that Republicans run Fox. Bill O'Reilly has admitted that Fox News has a conservative bias. Though I've heard that Rupert Merdock is something of a moderate.

If I had to pick a network (other than ABC) to see the IRL on, it would be CBS. Eric Mann did a great job producing NASCAR races pre-2001. I think he does college basketball now.

RPM2nite died because of NASCAR. NASCAR pulled ESPN's press credentials so they couldn't have reporters at the track or show highlights of races.

[Rex Monaco]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascar_on_fox#Criticisms

So the big criticsm of Fox coverage is that the ticker across the top of the screen is sometimes wrong?



And I think he meant that Republicans run Fox. Bill O'Reilly has admitted that Fox News has a conservative bias. Though I've heard that Rupert Merdock is something of a moderate.

So if the news divisions bias is an indication of the networks sports and entertainment divisions political affiliations, then ABC must be run by a bunch of Democrats.

And which political party do you think would be more likely to cave in and throw racing under the bus when gasoline reaches $5 or $6 a gallon? (Which party went home for vacation without voting on an energy policy at all?)

[Jag_Warrior]

Off topic, but can you imagine how much better off this country would be if Congress stayed home and never voted on anything anymore?
:p

You think it would be better not to have corrupt people, who are out of touch with reality, not having a say in how things are run?

Where do you get these crazy ideas? :D

[call_me_andrew]

What does gasoline have to do with it? We're talking about IndyCar racing. ;)

[-Helix-]

And I don't think Versus (or any other network) is going to pay the IRL $10 million more in cash than ABC/ESPN is offering. Why would they?

Why would they? Because they want programming for their network of course. If they want it bad enough, they'll pay. The difference between ESPN and a Versus or a Spike is that a Versus or a Spike actually WANTS the IRL. ESPN has more than it can handle and thus it's partners receive decreasingly less and less money. Versus and Spike are always looking for more programming and will spend what they need to get it.

When it came time for the NHL to re-new it's contract with ESPN, ESPN offered $20 Million I believe. Versus offered $100 Million, and Spike offered $120 Million. Both of those numbers are a lot more than 10 Million more than ESPN's offer. Sure, IndyCar isn't anywhere near hockey's popularity but I would expect them to get a similar treatment. I would probably estimate offers about 30 or 40 Million higher than ESPN's.

ESPN doesn't care. The IRL gets nothing from them except a few more households that probably don't watch anyway. A smaller network would offer a lot more cash and better coverage. I'm still looking for the negatives here.

[-Helix-]

I can't believe we've seen some of the same races. With traction control gone, F1 has been completely transformed for me. It's no longer true you can put a chimp in it, unless you want it swapping ends out of every corner. With the spec American open wheel has been using this year, and both series the last few years, there has been an excess of grip over power, so the chimp could do a lot better in the American formula.

As for no passing, road racing will always be different from oval racing. It's like the difference between basketball and soccer. They are both trying to get the ball into the net, but with one, it's a lot harder and a goal is something to be savored.

Ovals are easier? Tell that to all the transition drivers who couldn't stay on the lead lap to save their lives. It all depends on what kind of racing you're used to. But if Michael Schumacher tried to drive in IndyCar he would probably get beat by Milka and Marty on every oval.

[call_me_andrew]

I think he meant to say that passing is easier on ovals. Which leads to a similar, yet different, debate.

On road courses, passes usually involve either outbreaking or a slingshot. On ovals, two cars can run side-by-side for several laps before one finally overtakes the other.

I've determined that Americans aren't excited about how many passes and high scores there are, it's how many attempted passes (or scores) there are. Even in baseball, a 5-0 game is just a walk, a single, and a home run away from being a 5-3 game. In soccer, a shot takes a long time and a lot of strategy just to set up (like passing in F1).

[Jag_Warrior]

Why would they? Because they want programming for their network of course. If they want it bad enough, they'll pay. The difference between ESPN and a Versus or a Spike is that a Versus or a Spike actually WANTS the IRL. ESPN has more than it can handle and thus it's partners receive decreasingly less and less money. Versus and Spike are always looking for more programming and will spend what they need to get it.

When it came time for the NHL to re-new it's contract with ESPN, ESPN offered $20 Million I believe. Versus offered $100 Million, and Spike offered $120 Million. Both of those numbers are a lot more than 10 Million more than ESPN's offer. Sure, IndyCar isn't anywhere near hockey's popularity but I would expect them to get a similar treatment. I would probably estimate offers about 30 or 40 Million higher than ESPN's.

ESPN doesn't care. The IRL gets nothing from them except a few more households that probably don't watch anyway. A smaller network would offer a lot more cash and better coverage. I'm still looking for the negatives here.

ESPN claims that it loses money on the $10 million deal that it has with the IRL now (which includes Indy). So you believe that this obscure network will pay the IRL $40-$50 million a year ($30-$40 million above what ABC pays now), without Indy? I assume IMS would want at least the Indy 500 to be on over-air network. Of course, if being on network doesn't matter in the IRL's future business model, maybe they could place Indy on Versus too.

The negatives? Maybe there are none. But if this happens, let's have a beer and talk about where things stand in 2010-11. ;)

I used to watch TransAm on a network called the Sunshine Network, or something like that. I think Fox Sports took it over several years back. But that was cool. I felt all special... hunting and searching for TransAm on weekends. It was like that super cool bar on a side street, that only you and your best pals know about. You take prime dates there, because the waiters treat you special and know your favorite drink. Versus? I didn't even know I got the channel until someone on another board told me what DirecTV channel to look for. I didn't realize it was the old OLN.

Whether it's Spike or Versus, I can hear Speedy now: "Been there... done that!"

Damn, I miss him.

[Jag_Warrior]

But if Michael Schumacher tried to drive in IndyCar he would probably get beat by Milka and Marty on every oval.

Smoking the good stuff tonight, are we? :s mokin:

That's an interesting statement to make, considering that Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, and Juan Montoya took to ovals like ducks to water in pretty short order. Although I love me some Emmo Fittipaldi, I'd probably rate Schumacher a bit above Emmo and the others. But you think that Milka and Marty would beat him on each and every oval. Yo, that's some strong $#!^ you got - I think I'm gettin' a contact buzz over hyar. :D

Unless two of his plug wires were yanked before each race and one tire was flat, I somehow doubt that ol' Chinmacher would have any problem with Milka, Marty... or any other IRL driver once he got the setup right. I can't stand the guy. But his technical knowledge of racing cars is at least a lightyear or two ahead of anyone in the IRL right now - to say nothing of his superior skill level.

Man, I hope somebody remembered to buy some chips.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/TREAZURE/MOVIEZ/HALFBAKED2.jpg

[-Helix-]

ESPN claims that it loses money on the $10 million deal that it has with the IRL now (which includes Indy). So you believe that this obscure network will pay the IRL $40-$50 million a year ($30-$40 million above what ABC pays now), without Indy? I assume IMS would want at least the Indy 500 to be on over-air network. Of course, if being on network doesn't matter in the IRL's future business model, maybe they could place Indy on Versus too.

The negatives? Maybe there are none. But if this happens, let's have a beer and talk about where things stand in 2010-11. ;)

I used to watch TransAm on a network called the Sunshine Network, or something like that. I think Fox Sports took it over several years back. But that was cool. I felt all special... hunting and searching for TransAm on weekends. It was like that super cool bar on a side street, that only you and your best pals know about. You take prime dates there, because the waiters treat you special and know your favorite drink. Versus? I didn't even know I got the channel until someone on another board told me what DirecTV channel to look for. I didn't realize it was the old OLN.

Whether it's Spike or Versus, I can hear Speedy now: "Been there... done that!"

Damn, I miss him.

And I'm sure ESPN would've still lost money on the NHL, and I'm sure Versus still loses money on the NHL. That's just sports broadcasting for you. Besides football, I highly doubt any sport makes money for their broadcast partners. (Unless you're Champ Car and you pay for the airtime).

Even without the Indy 500, it would probably still be a very tempting direction for Versus or Spike or whoever. Even the Indy 500 practices and qualifying would probably be enough to satisfy them. And hell, they might add another 20 or 30 Million if they get the actual race. If not more.

Sure, you don't hear about the channels very often, but pressing one more number on my remote for "114" instead of "30" for Versus instead of ESPN really isn't that big of a deal to me. But maybe it is for you.

I knew that Versus was the old OLN, I knew what channels OLN and Spike, and all them were. I watch SunSports (your old Sunshine Network) all the time. I guess I would just recommend paying attention and keeping up if you want to reap the benefits of much better coverage.

I don't see how any fan would take ESPN over a less popular station. More airtime, more money, better coverage (most likely), a commited network, actual marketing, etc.

NHL fans hated the idea of the NHL moving to Versus (and the people that don't get Versus probably still hate it, but, sucks for them) but hardly anyone can complain about the FAR superior coverage and amount of airtime they receive now instead of what ESPN used to give them.

Personally, I get excited about the idea of watching practices, qualifying, pre- and post-race shows, a weekly recap show, and of course less Danica-worshipping. Hopefully we get to have those beers while enjoying all of that.

[-Helix-]

Smoking the good stuff tonight, are we? :s mokin:

That's an interesting statement to make, considering that Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, and Juan Montoya took to ovals like ducks to water in pretty short order. Although I love me some Emmo Fittipaldi, I'd probably rate Schumacher a bit above Emmo and the others. But you think that Milka and Marty would beat him on each and every oval. Yo, that's some strong $#!^ you got - I think I'm gettin' a contact buzz over hyar. :D

Unless two of his plug wires were yanked before each race and one tire was flat, I somehow doubt that ol' Chinmacher would have any problem with Milka, Marty... or any other IRL driver once he got the setup right. I can't stand the guy. But his technical knowledge of racing cars is at least a lightyear or two ahead of anyone in the IRL right now - to say nothing of his superior skill level.

Man, I hope somebody remembered to buy some chips.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/TREAZURE/MOVIEZ/HALFBAKED2.jpg

Well alright, lets get him in an IndyCar for Kentucky this weekend and watch him win the race with ease eventhough he's never been in the car before or driven an oval. [/sarcasm]

I'm not sure who is smoking what here... though I can promise you I ALWAYS have the good stuff. :s mokin:

Didn't he turn down an offer to drive in NASCAR? At least he didn't embarras himself like Dario or the majority of the other open-wheel converts. Just because you can drive well in one disipline of racing doesn't mean you can race well in all of them. (This year's transition drivers have pretty much proved that.) If that were true, maybe Helio should look into driving for Subaru's Rally team since he's proved about as much as he can here.

Sure, the great thing about humans is that they have the capability to learn like the guys you mentioned. But I meant if he strapped in this weekend, not if he had 4 years in the car first and the help of legendary oval racing teams/drivers.

Though even that wouldn't guaruntee him any success. There's nothing that says just because someone is a good road racer means they're obviously a good oval racer. Now THAT sounds like something that's drug-induced. Forget the beer, I got plenty of munchies if you want to come over. :p :

[Spiderman]

Ovals are easier? Tell that to all the transition drivers who couldn't stay on the lead lap to save their lives. It all depends on what kind of racing you're used to. But if Michael Schumacher tried to drive in IndyCar he would probably get beat by Milka and Marty on every oval.
I think it depends on the car he gets. Veteran IRL-Oval-Drivers are driving for teams working for a long time with the cars and know how to set up them. I think that helps a lot.
I remember Mansell and Montoya coming over from europe without oval experience. They drove for exellent teams and did a very good job on the ovals. I think that makes the difference. Oval racing, at least at superspeedways is all about set up.
That's what Mansell said, when he came to IndyCars...

[Rex Monaco]

What does gasoline have to do with it? We're talking about IndyCar racing. ;)

And it also leaves a carbon foot print bigger than Al Gores. So it's just a matter of time before ALL auto racing becomes a target.

[indycool]

Agree with Jag.

First, I don't believe Versus or Spike offered hockey that kind of money.

But say they DID offer that kind of money to the IRL and the IRL took it. In order for Versus or Spike to make out, they'd hafta charge a ton of money for commercials. And the sponsors who are in the IRL would look at those prices, prediction of lower ratings because of fewer possible viewers and say, "no," and the whole thing collapses quickly.

"Been there, done that" is appropriate.

Striking a bargain in business means the parties all make out. And each party is concerned about its own product and money in a negotiation.

[Rex Monaco]

Just because you can drive well in one disipline of racing doesn't mean you can race well in all of them.

Michael Schumacher is now racing in a different discipline, motorcycles.


...not if he had 4 years in the car first and the help of legendary oval racing teams/drivers.

Nigel Mansel won the championship his first year.

[Spiderman]

Nigel Mansel won the championship his first year.
And he won 4 of the 6 oval races this year. Montoya also, he was brilliant on ovals from his second race on...

[garyshell]

Michael Schumacher is now racing in a different discipline, motorcycles.



Nigel Mansel won the championship his first year.


And he won 4 of the 6 oval races this year. Montoya also, he was brilliant on ovals from his second race on...


Not to take anything away from either of them because the accomplishments of both in CART were amazing and Montoya is one of my all time favorite open wheel drivers, but how well would the two of them faired without the huge database of baseline setups available to them? If they had had to learn how to set up the car from scratch, I don't think either would have risen as quickly as they did. I think they would have eventually garnered similar results, but just not as fast.

Having said that, Juan was a master at taking an ill behaved car and wringing its neck. Witness the report from one of the TV reporters showing the telemetry traces of Juan going full lock left and full lock right all with the throttle at 100%. I wish I could find a clip of that report or a written account. It was amazing to see.

Gary

[indycool]

Gary's point reminds me of Teo Fabi coming over without fanfare and winning the pole at Indy. After Indy at Milwaukee, he was running a high line in practice. Chief steward Wally Dallenbach told him after the practice that if he didn't get the car down low, he was going to hurt himself and/or somebody else. So, in qualifying, he brought the car down to the white line in the corners......and won the pole again.

[Miatanut]

Ovals are easier? Tell that to all the transition drivers who couldn't stay on the lead lap to save their lives. It all depends on what kind of racing you're used to. But if Michael Schumacher tried to drive in IndyCar he would probably get beat by Milka and Marty on every oval.

While I was saying PASSING was easier on ovals, if you want to talk about which is harder to drive, we need only look at Nigel Mansell's first first year in CART, where he won the championship primarily by winning ovals.

Under the current situation, we have drivers AND teams that haven't driven any ovals in the last season, and very few for several years before that, using hand-me-down chassis without the latest aero pieces. They don't know the car, they don't know the tracks, they only knew they were coming into a tough situation.

When I was a kid, we had lots of drivers in their 40's and 50's, while F1 was drivers in their 20's and 30's. When CART took the sport in more of a road-racing direction, the older guys were dropping out, because while oval racing is a lot about a sixth sense on what traffic is going to do, where experience is a big help, road courses are purely driving. NASCAR, with only two road courses on the schedule, which they all complain about, still has lots of older drivers compared to the IRL, because of the difference between their schedule and the IRL's.

So, no. Based on the evidence from the last time around, if Michael Schumacher came into the IRL with one of the top teams, he probably wouldn't get beat by Marty an Milka on every oval. More likely he would take the championship, and given how weak the American branch of the sport is now, I would say he would almost certainly take the championship, and a lot of those victories would come on ovals.

Edit:
Sorry, I just read some of the subsequent posts in the thread which make pretty much the same points.

[Spiderman]

Not to take anything away from either of them because the accomplishments of both in CART were amazing and Montoya is one of my all time favorite open wheel drivers, but how well would the two of them faired without the huge database of baseline setups available to them? If they had had to learn how to set up the car from scratch, I don't think either would have risen as quickly as they did. I think they would have eventually garnered similar results, but just not as fast.

Having said that, Juan was a master at taking an ill behaved car and wringing its neck. Witness the report from one of the TV reporters showing the telemetry traces of Juan going full lock left and full lock right all with the throttle at 100%. I wish I could find a clip of that report or a written account. It was amazing to see.

Gary
That's what I said before. Oval racing is all about set-up. If one of the ex-champcar-driver would have a drive in one of IRL's top-teams, he would probably do a lot better. The other way around, give some oval specialist a winning car on road courses, i doubt they would win. Look what Paul Tracy did with the vision car in edmonton, he never drove this car on a road circuit and was so much better than oval specialists Foyt and Carpenter, even without knowing the car. And Tracy is an old man...

[weeflyonthewall]

Who made that TV commercial touting just left turns? The guy who can only dream of sipping from the milk jug.

[speeddurango]

I forgot precisely which driver said this just in the TV interview in one of the race build up this year, that 90% of oval racing depends on setup.And I'm going to say that in the other 10%, a large portion of it is the ability of handling the traffic, the car control part can be as much as 2 or 3 percent at most. Really, ovals like Milwaukee, Indy, especially the qualifying at Indy, you need to really understand your car well, but still in the race trim, it's really just 2 or 4 similar high speed corners basically, the tough part is how you go through the traffic.

And I'm not sure claiming Michael Schumacher will be beaten by Duno or Roth is just an exaggeration of trying to make a point or what, but as I said, being fast on ovals demonstrates a driver's ability on handling the traffic and the team work. And in the case of Duno and Roth being exceptionally slower everywhere, well all I can say is they are not normal drivers.

[call_me_andrew]

If oval racing were that dependet on the car, Townsend Bell wouldn't be out performing Milka Duno on a regular basis.

[gofastandwynn]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080806/SPORTS0107/308060003/1052/SPORTS01


ABC, Versus to share IndyCar series TV coverage

By Curt Cavin
Posted: August 6, 2008

The IndyCar Series will return to ABC-TV for five races in 2009, including the Indianapolis 500, but the rest of the races will move from ESPN and ESPN2 to Versus, series and television officials confirmed Wednesday.
Versus, which is owned by Comcast and is home to the NHL and the Tour de France, will carry a minimum of 13 races next year in a multiyear agreement.

Versus is Channel 46 in Comcast's Central Indiana lineup.
Versus reaches more than 73 million homes. ESPN and ESPN2 each reach about 96 million.

The IndyCar Series is counting on additional programming on Versus, including pre- and post-race shows, extended broadcasts and specialty shows that will be detailed today in a teleconference.
ABC's four non-Indy races have not been selected. Next year will mark the 45th year for the 500 on the network, and this contract, which includes international rights, runs through the 2012 season. Officially, all races are produced by ESPN Inc.

ESPN has hosted Indy-car races since 2000, with ESPN2's connection to the sport dating to 1998.

Call Star reporter Curt Cavin at (317) 444-6409.

[SOD]

I've seen this deal for CART in 2001. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Chris R]

Well, on the bright side, it is being announced in August - not December (or whenever)....

Also on the bright side - at least Versus has some sports experience....

On the not so bright side - it sound like Spike part deux... I have a really bad feeling about this..... If the production and presentation standards do not rise dramatically there will be major negative fallout.....

[pits4me]

Interesting situation.

There's still an opportunity to land Univision and or Telemundo with Spanish language broadcasts of all races. I wonder if the IRL folks are that intelligent. They could at least generate some broadcast leverage that attracts Hispanic sponsorship for Mexican and Spanish drivers.

[Rex Monaco]

There's still an opportunity to land Univision and or Telemundo with Spanish language broadcasts of all races. I wonder if the IRL folks are that intelligent. They could at least generate some broadcast leverage that attracts Hispanic sponsorship for Mexican and Spanish drivers.

I thought the IRL was an all American Oval-Centric series for Americans, why would they want anyone who speaks a foriegn language to support it?

[pits4me]

Yes, bugger the International reach. Ignore overseas interest. If you don't hold an Amercian passport and speak Yank, find something else to support.

A Kiwi leading the points, two Brazilians, a Brit and an Aussie round out the top five in the championship and the best the US has to offer is the powder princess. Oh dear................................!