2008 Neste Oil Rally Finland - official thread

[N.O.T]

Surely even you would not like to see a rally won or lost in this way?

A crazy situation for Loeb to find himself in though, was it Richard Burns who retired on the Safari in 02 within sight of the service park but was bogged down and noone could help them?

yeah....

[bluuford]

It looks that Loeb was a little bit stuck on top of that well-drain cover with his sump guard. That is why he needed the help of spectators or that is why spectators reached there before he could leave on his own and someone managed to switch on his/her camera.

But if you think a little, it is stupid mistake anyway:-) You are driving in full speed for 170km per day and then go off while driving on Sunday driving speed. If Loeb gets penalized for example with five minutes then He gets 6th place and Hirvonen wins chapionshipthen we can call that this year the championship was decided on road sections ;-) 10 points lost in Jordan.. on road section and 7 points lost in Finland.. on road section :-P

[tmx]

What ? Seb won and dominates on the stages and then, with the car OK and working/pushing, just because 3 or 4 persons pushes it 2/3meters(and by the video it looks like the car would get out nicely), it is a farce ??

:s mokin: Did you not read what the other people said about tomi and petter? Although I don't have any bias feeling about this situation, my guess is nothing will happen.

[Helstar]

Well I wouldn't like if anything happen too ... afterall, in the special stages spectators help without any problem, so I think that if the rule is that outside special stages it is forbidden then it's wrong, either you allow help everywhere or not.

BUT let's not start yelling "farce !" if any penalty happens, we should still remember the Portugal 2007 farce which costed Bosse title ... and also the engine change in the shakedown in one of the early rally (Mexico ? if I remember well) which was over the penalty line IMHO ...

[White Sauron]

Well, I did write to the organizers.)) Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.

[wwbroe]

Well, I did write to the organizers.)) Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.

It would be a farce if Loeb would get a penalty for this. WRC is allready almost dead but this kind of things could mean the complete end. Because if rally's are not decided any more on the stage's but before the "green table", or with stupid tactic games, then what is the idea about it. But, you are right, maybe this way the pathetic Ford-boys may have another title after all.

[cosmicpanda]

But, you are right, maybe this way the pathetic Ford-boys may have another title after all.

so Ford drove Loeb's car off the road?

[Jaanus]

They say in Finnish rally radio that Loeb was speeding 101 km/h when the limit was 60 km/h and he might loose his driving licence for 1-6 months. The police will decide the penalty after the rally.
For example PG Andersson lost his licence for few months last year and missed Finland and Germany.
Also PWRC driver Gabor Mayer lost his licence for the rest of the year this year. Gabor was driving 60 km/h over the limit and was replaced by Tapio Suominen in this rally.

[Ghostwalker]

From the photos it is plainly obvious that Loeb got outside assistance and according to the rulebook this is subject to a penalty.

on the contrary. this photo is IMO no proof at all. because how can the Official FIA/WRC "judges" be 100% sure that this picture is taken on a road section during rally Finland 2008 and not somewhere else? How can they know that the pictures is not faked? If you gonna penalize a driver your evidence need to be 100% reliable. Hypothetically this photo could have been taken anywhere.

[bluuford]

on the contrary. this photo is IMO no proof at all. because how can the Official FIA/WRC "judges" be 100% sure that this picture is taken on a road section during rally Finland 2008 and not somewhere else? How can they know that the pictures is not faked? If you gonna penalize a driver your evidence need to be 100% reliable. Hypothetically this photo could have been taken anywhere.

This photo is just starting point. They can take their onboard camera and recheck it. Also from GPS log, to find out where the car was stopped. You know we are in 21th century ;-)

[tmx]

on the contrary. this photo is IMO no proof at all. because how can the Official FIA/WRC "judges" be 100% sure that this picture is taken on a road section during rally Finland 2008 and not somewhere else? How can they know that the pictures is not faked? If you gonna penalize a driver your evidence need to be 100% reliable. Hypothetically this photo could have been taken anywhere.

the They can also check from the polices for info if they caught him speeding, and ask spectators who helped him to confirm. Anyway, despite supporting Mikko, I prefer that Loeb comes out okay, rather than Ford being able to take advantage from this to score more points.

[janvanvurpa]

on the contrary. this photo is IMO no proof at all. because how can the Official FIA/WRC "judges" be 100% sure that this picture is taken on a road section during rally Finland 2008 and not somewhere else? How can they know that the pictures is not faked? If you gonna penalize a driver your evidence need to be 100% reliable. Hypothetically this photo could have been taken anywhere.

Don't they have in car cameras?
And GPS?
That should show the car stopping on any SS, even if they didn't show the transits.
If the car didn't stop In a SS, then these people aren't assisting IN a SS, so that leaves transits.

It would be a pity if he was excluded but rules are rules even when they're stupid.

I like Loeb and wish him well but he seems to not be paying near enough attention on transits.

[janvanvurpa]

This photo is just starting point. They can take their onboard camera and recheck it. Also from GPS log, to find out where the car was stopped. You know we are in 21th century ;-)
Damn you type faster than I do at 23.38. 8)
Had your morning cup of coffee already?

[tmx]

If this is outside of stage, the onboard camera are no running, it auto start when the car is turned into stage mode in the start of the stage only. Also there was no mention of him getting into a ditch during racing. But yeah, GPS. Anyway, I hope we are just over speculating and nothing too bad will come out of this.

Back to rallying, stage 22 is running now. Even if penalty will happen, I think Loeb will win this one by virtue of speed. He's unstoppable.

[jonkka]

That was with regards to changing a tyre though and was that not in a stage?

Well, Safari did not have stages but competitive sections. I do not recall outright if that was on CS or not but spectator help was negligible, even so that Clerk of the Course went on to state for the record that he didn't know "if it was outside assistance or more of a outside hindrance", yet Tommi was excluded.

I agree that if Loeb gets a penalty it would leave a sour taste to this rally. On the other hand, if there is a reason to give penalty, it should be applied or that'll leave sour taste as well. It's not an easy task to be rally steward.

[White Sauron]

I would like to hear Gronholm's comments on the outcome of rally Finland...

[tmx]

i missed marcus.

[jonkka]

Heh, Mikko and Seb record exactly the same time...

[bluuford]

Damn you type faster than I do at 23.38. 8)
Had your morning cup of coffee already?

I think that it was milk :-)

[satukata]

5th fastest!

even faster than henning and sordo!

Matti is drivivng great.
His first rally with WRC car is GREAT

[White Sauron]

I got the answer on Loeb's issue:

"Totally allowed according to FIA General Prescriptions, Art. 11.4."

[jonkka]

Which reads:

11.4 It is forbidden to tow or transport the cars, or to have them pushed, except in order to bring them back onto the road or to clear the road. Any infringement will be reported to the stewards.

[jonkka]

I am dead certain that the yellow scandal press has (or will have) a report blown out of all proportions regarding this incident. Anyone has today's IL or IS at hand?

[tmx]

.

[jonkka]

Loeb has spun

[CABAIO E'LONA]

-6.4 to Hirvonen in the ss23 in the overall 11.8 for Loeb.... the last SS have only 07,54 km...

[CABAIO E'LONA]

Good time for Wilson in the ss23! 05:52.1

[kleisj]

Goodmoring all.
Unfortunately not any big battle this weekend. This championship is just a walk in the park for Seb. After dominating the Finish stages with no obstacle at all , just Mikko being a close observer I think that the rest of the championship will be really easy for him. Ok is motorsport and everything could happen but the guy is in a class of his own. Or more correct the package Citroen-Loeb is in another level from the rest.
History will write a French winner to the Finish stages but as it seems it would mean something if Gronholm was in Sebs way to the top!!! I didn't imagine that Seb would have such an easy Rally with noone of the local drivers being able to challenge him.
Unfortunately Gronholm's retirement makes the job of the French team way to easy. Latvala and Hirvonen not close at all to Gronholm performance for the moment. Maybe a combination of the two....
And the rest are way back.
Don't misunderstand me. Is not that I don't like Seb to win, I don't mind for that, but I don't like it when it is too easy for him. Is just too bad for the sport.

[HaCo]

I feel somehow the same kleisj. Loeb is just a class of his own right now. Strange thing is how fast Hirvonen was last year in Finland (faster than Loeb), and how he is a bit slower this year. 'a bit' Because the difference is not that big. I have the feeling that the Citroen has improved on the Ford or the other way around.

The stupid thing in WRC IMO is that only few drivers can battle for victory and that it is the same story almost every rally. Apparantly it is very hard to build a competitive WRCar, even for Subaru, which means victory is exclusive for two manufactures. Things should become a lot more simpler.

[Salist]

Goodmoring all.
Unfortunately not any big battle this weekend. This championship is just a walk in the park for Seb. After dominating the Finish stages with no obstacle at all , just Mikko being a close observer I think that the rest of the championship will be really easy for him. Ok is motorsport and everything could happen but the guy is in a class of his own. Or more correct the package Citroen-Loeb is in another level from the rest.
History will write a French winner to the Finish stages but as it seems it would mean something if Gronholm was in Sebs way to the top!!! I didn't imagine that Seb would have such an easy Rally with noone of the local drivers being able to challenge him.
Unfortunately Gronholm's retirement makes the job of the French team way to easy. Latvala and Hirvonen not close at all to Gronholm performance for the moment. Maybe a combination of the two....
And the rest are way back.
Don't misunderstand me. Is not that I don't like Seb to win, I don't mind for that, but I don't like it when it is too easy for him. Is just too bad for the sport.

I agree with you perfectly.

[Fly]

victory is exclusive for two manufactures.

What about IRC or F1? Same issue! Peugeot dominating IRC. Both McLaren and Ferrari have the upper hand in F1.

[Daniel]

Which reads:

11.4 It is forbidden to tow or transport the cars, or to have them pushed, except in order to bring them back onto the road or to clear the road. Any infringement will be reported to the stewards.

I hope that clears it up for people :) Loeb will take the win and not even the FIA can do anything about it :)

[CABAIO E'LONA]

Victory for Sebastien Loeb.

[MikeD]

Excellent win for Loeb :D

He just proved once again in this rally how good he is.

[duff]

EXCELLENT 3rd place by Atko!!

[jonkka]

That was the last thing where Auriol had been better than Loeb, now Seb is greatest French rally driver on all areas. Congratulations, excellent drive!

[bluuford]

They say in Finnish rally radio that Loeb was speeding 101 km/h when the limit was 60 km/h and he might loose his driving licence for 1-6 months. The police will decide the penalty after the rally.
For example PG Andersson lost his licence for few months last year and missed Finland and Germany.
Also PWRC driver Gabor Mayer lost his licence for the rest of the year this year. Gabor was driving 60 km/h over the limit and was replaced by Tapio Suominen in this rally.

Yeah, I think that this is the biggest thread for Loeb´s championship. Finland has so called 0 tolerance. If you have been more than 40km/h over the limit then there is no way to get away without losing your license for at least one month. I cannot understand how Loeb can do such a stupid things on road sections.

[bluuford]

first stage win for Subaru :-)

[ste898]

FIA rules are made for LOEB we knew that for a long time now......

Also I doubt very much he will loose his licence either I would say that will get 'forgotten' about

Loeb has just spoiled one of my most favourite rallies

[bluuford]

And few more things.. Less than 6 months ago he was also caught because of speeding in Sweden.. It wont be good thing for him as well regarding the possible decision..
well.. dont want to think about it right now..
Cocradulations to loeb

[SubaruNorway]

first stage win for Subaru :-)

No, Atko got one in Greece, if it's not in this rally you meant...

[cut the b.s.]

FIA rules are made for LOEB we knew that for a long time now......

Also I doubt very much he will loose his licence either I would say that will get 'forgotten' about

Loeb has just spoiled one of my most favourite rallies

Dont be such a sore loser, a great win for Loeb, won like it should be, man to man on the stages.
Speeding in Finland can cause Seb to be banned in Finland, but not anywhere else, there is a precident for this, several drivers were banned in the UK for speeding on shakedown day in the UK, but could still compete internationally

Great result for Atkinson also, podiums always look best with 3 manus on them

[HaCo]

What about IRC or F1? Same issue! Peugeot dominating IRC. Both McLaren and Ferrari have the upper hand in F1.

Well for F1 you're right, although more manufactures are closer I think.

For IRC the reason is not only complexity, I think it has more to do with only 2 manufactures that are really involved. If you see what Loix did with the Polo last year in Ypres (ok not many stages :( ) and Casier this year, you could say that VW is close as well, but they don't do full IRC, and if they run an event it's with a lot fewer cars. Casier will do some IRC rounds this year apart from Ypres, I'm curious what he will do in that car.

[Jaanus]

Jaan Mölder crash photos from Yesterday, car is totally destroyed.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61868t41h5df4.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61869t41h55e1.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61870t41h53a1.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61871t41h4674.jpg

[Buzz Lightyear]

Yeah, I think that this is the biggest thread for Loeb´s championship. Finland has so called 0 tolerance. If you have been more than 40km/h over the limit then there is no way to get away without losing your license for at least one month. I cannot understand how Loeb can do such a stupid things on road sections.

its like schumacher writing off a ferrari road car 3 weeks ago on the notorious nurgenburg, then last week he had another road accident in a fiat van near silverstone... they think there are invincible on the roads as they are on the tracks.

[tmx]

This is not very good news for Mikko. Another difficult rally similar to this one is New Zealand and if you remembered last year the amazing battle between Loeb and Marcus, Mikko was almost 2minutes behind. If Loeb come there as confident as Finland, which he will after this morale boost, it will be hard for Mikko to keep up. Mikko will find it hard to challange Loeb on speed, it's best to stay consistent and get as much points as possible.

[Koppomsbo]

They say in Finnish rally radio that Loeb was speeding 101 km/h when the limit was 60 km/h and he might loose his driving licence for 1-6 months. The police will decide the penalty after the rally.


Is this confirmed by the police or just rally radio talk?

[Anti-Lag-Rocks]

I think the drive of the rally for me, was Atko. I was gutted when he was down in 9th on Day 1, but to actually make up THAT much time in Finland and pass your more experienced teammate and get on the podium is very, very impressive. He is turning into real championship material (in the right machinery).

Kudos to Loeb for a solid win, but I really thought Mikko would wipe the floor with him here. Just goes to show...

[jonkka]

Is this confirmed by the police or just rally radio talk?

In Finnish only:
http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/Sebastien+Loeb+saa+ajokiellon/1135238299162

Short summary:
Loeb was caught speeding 101 kph on road with 60 kph limit last Wednesday. Police did not suspend his driver's license, unlike those of Gabor Mayer (61 kph over the limit), Andrea Cortinovis (49 kph over the limit) and Vytautas Baranauskas (41 kph over the limit, ie the same as Loeb).

[Daniel]

Yeah, I think that this is the biggest thread for Loeb´s championship. Finland has so called 0 tolerance. If you have been more than 40km/h over the limit then there is no way to get away without losing your license for at least one month. I cannot understand how Loeb can do such a stupid things on road sections.

All drivers are like this. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Believe me I've been overtaken by just about every driver in the WRC at some point on the road when I've been driving at or above the limit.

[Daniel]

Jaan Mölder crash photos from Yesterday, car is totally destroyed.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61868t41h5df4.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61869t41h55e1.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61870t41h53a1.jpg
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2008/08/03/61871t41h4674.jpg

Strong roll cage!!!!!

[Daniel]

FIA rules are made for LOEB we knew that for a long time now......

Also I doubt very much he will loose his licence either I would say that will get 'forgotten' about

Loeb has just spoiled one of my most favourite rallies

Shouldn't you be on the beach with your spade and bucket with mummy and daddy?

Each time Loeb drives better than your beloved Ford drivers you throw all your toys out of your pram and talk about how he ruined the rally or something. Get a grip! He's the best driver out there by far and that's why he won'.

You've just spoilt one of my favourite forums :( Boohoo!

[Daniel]

Dont be such a sore loser, a great win for Loeb, won like it should be, man to man on the stages.
Speeding in Finland can cause Seb to be banned in Finland, but not anywhere else, there is a precident for this, several drivers were banned in the UK for speeding on shakedown day in the UK, but could still compete internationally

Great result for Atkinson also, podiums always look best with 3 manus on them

Also.... do you have to have a valid drivers licence to compete in most of the international events? Could Elena not just drive the road sections if Seb is not allowed on the road?

P.S You just spoilt this forum for me :p

[ShiftingGears]

Atkinson 3rd in the standings, with more podiums than Latvala or Sordo, in vastly superior cars. Excellent.

Get him in a Citroen!

[N.O.T]

What an amazing win !!!! I think ridiculing the local kids in their home land was the best answer to the cheap tactics they used in Turkey to win the rally...

Very good drive by atkinson as well....

Lets see what tactic ford has in mind for Germany....

[kleisj]

That was the last thing where Auriol had been better than Loeb, now Seb is greatest French rally driver on all areas. Congratulations, excellent drive!

I don't want to spoil the enthusiasm but for sure is not the same.... Is different story to win Hirvonen and Atkinson and another story to win Kankounen, Alen and Vatanen on their home ground....! Is just not the same story. The result may be the same but is just not the same thing.
I think he is a driving phenomenon who is taking advantage the absence of competition. As I said before I would be really impressed if he had won with Marcus following...! But things wouldn't be the same for him if the competition was immense as it was those years when Auriol got the win in Finland.

[kleisj]

What an amazing win !!!! I think ridiculing the local kids in their home land was the best answer to the cheap tactics they used in Turkey to win the rally...

Very good drive by atkinson as well....

Lets see what tactic ford has in mind for Germany.....

The loosing tactic??

[HaCo]

.

The loosing tactic??

Mmmh, don't forget Dudu yet. ;)

[Daniel]

Mmmh, don't forget Dudu yet. ;)
Bwahahahahaha Duval isn't Loeb. He'll push him for a few stages and then realise that he's beaten.

[HaCo]

Bwahahahahaha Duval isn't Loeb. He'll push him for a few stages and then realise that he's beaten.

Probably, but he'll be the closest to Loeb I think (maybe Sordo, mmmh) and eventually in front of him (although also very close), at least I hope so.

[N.O.T]

the thing with duval is that he will most likely be infront of the ford scared kids adn not infront of the citroens.

[jonkka]

We have a historical win and all you can do is mock each others? Figures...

[cut the b.s.]

I don't want to spoil the enthusiasm but for sure is not the same.... Is different story to win Hirvonen and Atkinson and another story to win Kankounen, Alen and Vatanen on their home ground....! Is just not the same story. The result may be the same but is just not the same thing.
I think he is a driving phenomenon who is taking advantage the absence of competition. As I said before I would be really impressed if he had won with Marcus following...! But things wouldn't be the same for him if the competition was immense as it was those years when Auriol got the win in Finland.

To be fair, the 3 drivers you mention here are all legends of the sport but Vatanen and Alens best years were past in 92

[N.O.T]

a historical win which half people consider it to be against inferior competition thus its not historical and the other half considers it that was ilegal because Loeb was speeding, pushed back on the road his hair were too long ects....and there is me who mocks everyone with my sick dog toilet humour...

[N.O.T]

To be fair, the 3 drivers you mention here are all legends of the sport but Vatanen and Alens best years were past in 92

for every win of every driver in every event of all years you can find reasons diminishing it....simple as that.

LOEB IS THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIMES AND BY FAR (this win persuaded even myself)....all the sceptics and the people who like the stone age of rallying than the modern era will just extinct in a few years.

[Torsen]

i bet if sordo doesn't beat akinson in germany (tarmac) some heads are going roll...

[N.O.T]

i bet if sordo doesn't beat akinson in germany (tarmac) some heads are going roll...

you believe thats a possibility ?

[Buzz Lightyear]

you believe thats a possibility ?

the only problem is that is sordo is not allowed to beat Loeb, but atkinson is getting close... but that is starting to say that atkinson is going to beat loeb, which is not believeable.

[cut the b.s.]

for every win of every driver in every event of all years you can find reasons diminishing it....simple as that.

LOEB IS THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIMES AND BY FAR (this win persuaded even myself)....all the sceptics and the people who like the stone age of rallying than the modern era will just extinct in a few years.

Correct on both points, but to be honest I have realised for some time now that Loeb is a bit special, the point I made in the earlier post was in reference to how people always think it was better back in the day...
Auriol and Loeb can both be very proud of their Finland victories, they both beat decent competition to do it


ps. I am alone in thinking maybe the Focus has a very slight edge on the C4 now? Maybe Marcus should have given it another year?

[cut the b.s.]

the only problem is that is sordo is not allowed to beat Loeb, but atkinson is getting close... but that is starting to say that atkinson is going to beat loeb, which is not believeable.


Germany will be interesting, Sordo has the pace to win there, I think if Loeb has any problem and Sordo and Duval get a clear run Sordo will get his chance to shine, its incredible to think Seb is trying for his 7th victory in a row there, for this reason and no other I think a cow will 'moo' at him this year and cause him to spin off the stage! Surely its not possible to win a WRC event 7 years in a row? He has already done it in 2 different cars, for 2 different teams ;-)

[HaCo]

cut the bs, cut the bs... two diff teams, lol ;)

[Helstar]

LOEB IS THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIMES AND BY FAR
AHAH get real ... it won't be true even if he wins another 5 WRC titles trust me ... here in Italy if I say "Loeb" half of the people reply "... who ?!" and the other half "meh, he's a bot but 0 emotions...", if I say "Colin McRae" they reply "oh, he was AMAZING ! My idol !", of course the videogame serie may also have something related to this, we have to wait until somebody publish a "Loeb Rally" videogame ... but ops ... it will never happen because he's not popular at all, that's it :p

[N.O.T]

so the greateness of a man depends on how popular he is....hmmmm nice logic

[J4MIE]

This victory has sealed Loeb's greatness I think, fantastic effort and glad that it wasn't a walk in the park :)

However I can't help but feel that he only won because Marcus wasn't competing ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Title number 5 coming right up!

Loeb did really well, but I must admit it's frustrating.

Everyone else seems to struggle and Seb makes it look easy.
That's when you know you have that "it" factor.

The possibility of anyone winning the title besides Seb is nil. Live with that fact!
I know I will until next season.

[MikeD]

Atkinson 3rd in the standings, with more podiums than Latvala or Sordo, in vastly superior cars. Excellent.

Get him in a Citroen!

I think you're forgetting that Citroën are using WRC very much as a marketing tool, so they hire talented drivers from countries where they sell cars. Since they don't sell any cars in Australia there is 0% chance that Atkinson will ever drive for the Citroën works team. Had he been as good as Loeb - which he clearly isn't - then maybe, but otherwise not a chance.

[Helstar]

so the greateness of a man depends on how popular he is....hmmmm nice logic
It's just to show you that now WRC is unfortunately a small little thing.
Almost nobody is following it anymore. It's more circuit racing, with almost nobody racing. Like F1 with 8-10 cars only.
Easier to win now compared to the past.
And different, rallies were longer, cars weren't like on trails, there were more drivers and cars, better competition. etc. yes Loeb is the winner of this 'era' and his fans and him are proud, but the environment is poor.

[MikeD]

Germany will be interesting, Sordo has the pace to win there, I think if Loeb has any problem and Sordo and Duval get a clear run Sordo will get his chance to shine, its incredible to think Seb is trying for his 7th victory in a row there, for this reason and no other I think a cow will 'moo' at him this year and cause him to spin off the stage! Surely its not possible to win a WRC event 7 years in a row? He has already done it in 2 different cars, for 2 different teams ;-)

Good point. Having just seen the pathetic excuse of an F1 driver that Kovalainen is, winning his first race in the must lucky way, you never know what might happen in Germany. Maybe you're right - maybe it doesn't matter what Loeb does in Germany, maybe it's just his time to have a problem on a rally he has won 6 times in a row. But mark my words, Hirvonen will also have at least one DNF before this season is over.

[COD]

well, a great win by Loeb and the fact that Mikko couldn't even beat Loeb on his homeground might affect his confidence for the rest of the year. Not taking anything away from Loeb, but still I don't appreciate the opponents as much as if Grönholm would have been there.

And if only Latvala would get his head straight....

Also a good drive by Atkinson and further ridiculing Petters complaints about the car. And a very nice drive by Rantanen in his first ever WRC event. Hope he gets more chances in other events as well.

And nice that Hänninen got the win he needed. i hope the two finns will challenge Aigner for the PWRC title for real

[MJW]

I dont know what it is about Loeb, an absoloutely amazingly talented driver but in the English speaking rally world and Nordic countries he does not seem to be as popular a figure as Marcus, Colin, Tommi, Petter,Galli, and so on.
Winning Finland was clearly very important for Seb, and well done to him. As for Mikko he tried.......... shame Marcus wasn't there, and also shame that Ouninpohja was not run in its proper way and proper length.

[N.O.T]

And different, rallies were longer, cars weren't like on trails, there were more drivers and cars, better competition. etc. yes Loeb is the winner of this 'era' and his fans and him are proud, but the environment is poor.

ok go back to the stone age then.....maybe in few years you will discover fire.

Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???

Loeb gave 100% to win in Finland and the ancient holy dinosaurs of rallying also gave 100% to win their battles as well...cannot see why was easier to win now from then? yes rallies were 100000 milles longer but also the final differences were count in years not seconds. As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....

Its called evolution

[Torsen]

oh there is going to be Loeb haters.... as much as I cheer for Jari & Chris I am just amazed by Loeb's consistent speed...

[Torsen]

AHAH get real ... it won't be true even if he wins another 5 WRC titles trust me ... here in Italy if I say "Loeb" half of the people reply "... who ?!" and the other half "meh, he's a bot but 0 emotions...", if I say "Colin McRae" they reply "oh, he was AMAZING ! My idol !", of course the videogame serie may also have something related to this, we have to wait until somebody publish a "Loeb Rally" videogame ... but ops ... it will never happen because he's not popular at all, that's it :p

just because in your country people don't know who loeb is doesn't mean it takes ANYTHING away from him... thanks for letting us know about italian rally ignorance... :rolleyes:

[janvanvurpa]

Correct on both points, but to be honest I have realised for some time now that Loeb is a bit special, the point I made in the earlier post was in reference to how people always think it was better back in the day...
Auriol and Loeb can both be very proud of their Finland victories, they both beat decent competition to do it


ps. I am alone in thinking maybe the Focus has a very slight edge on the C4 now? Maybe Marcus should have given it another year?

Yepp, both can be proud but (always a mais!) having watched, or follwed both evnts I remeber "our gut feelings'.
Here I think you'll agree we all feel "If nothing goes badly wrong, Seb will win"

But back then I remember we were all surprised as hell, and some like me who really like Auriols character, were also delighted.

Maybe another way to think of the difference is Seb beat 2 Finns (realistically two were a real threat), Didi beat a dozen, and that's a bigger deal.
Truth is the Lancia was food but it really wasn't in the same last per cent as the Japonaise cars.

But that's just little crumbs of details, great results for both.

[kleisj]

ok go back to the stone age then.....maybe in few years you will discover fire.

Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???

Loeb gave 100% to win in Finland and the ancient holy dinosaurs of rallying also gave 100% to win their battles as well...cannot see why was easier to win now from then? yes rallies were 100000 milles longer but also the final differences were count in years not seconds. As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....

Its called evolution

Because in the old days (stone age as you say) you would have 7-10 drivers all capable of winning when they had the chance. Ok with different machinery but all were heavy names. Some of them were at the end of their career some of them at the start. But it was different. When Auriol got the win Juha was second. Would you compare him with Hirvonen??
Take any 3 years you want from the stone age and tell me how many different winners you would have in 3 championships and how many in the last 3....?
And something else in the stone age the rallies were much more spectacular...
In the modern days you miss this excitement.

By numbers Loeb is the greatest of all times. He is a driving genius compared to the rest. Is he? For sure is great. No doubt about that. But he had too much positive parameters helping him up to now to his WRC career. A team and a car which was best suited to him. He never changed team and never experienced any serious difficulties with his car. I have nothing against him on the contrary I truly admire him for his achievements. But he is in an era where the competition is much more inferior and much more less. Simple as that.
With Gronholm for sure we watched some great battles, but it was just between them two...!

In the stone age you didn't know the top 3 spots before the beginning of the rally. And with absence of super rally someone made a mistake he was out of the event.

For you is evolution for me is just not interesting as it was.
Ask people what they would prefer to watch , the 2006 season on DVD or the 2001 or 1999, or 1995 season?

[Karukera]

Historical win for a staight close duel.
Bravo Seb & Mikko !
Something very special to win there, on the holy land of rallying in front of so many die hard fans.
3 non Nordics only have won this Rally, all being Latins.
Great result for Chris and Stéphane and good perfomance for Dani and Marc. Citroën unexpectedly pockets a nice amount of points over Ford.
Not to forget the steady pace of Rantanen-Lonegren.
Next step : RAC 2008 !

[janneppi]

The rally was fun, weather was mostly pleasant, too bad Latvala went out, but such is life.

WRC needs more drivers who don't brake halfway down a straight, three or four isn't enough, especially if two of them drive off the road.
Great drive from Loeb, he's the man. Mikko too, just not as big a man. :)

[kleisj]

Mmmh, don't forget Dudu yet. ;)

I don't think Dudu has a chance with Seb , except if he experiences any bad luck or mistake. Dudu is not a WRC regular any more and thus he will not be able or push as much as he would want or have the form to push as much as he would want. I think he will be even behind Sordo who usually goes well on tarmac surfaces.

[jonkka]

F1 driver that Kovalainen

Go here:
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

And stay there.

[janvanvurpa]

ok go back to the stone age then.....maybe in few years you will discover fire.

Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???

Loeb gave 100% to win in Finland and the ancient holy dinosaurs of rallying also gave 100% to win their battles as well...cannot see why was easier to win now from then? yes rallies were 100000 milles longer but also the final differences were count in years not seconds. As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....

Its called evolution

Yes evolution. But ever since the subset of GpA which allows "World Rally Cars" to be built under much MUCH greater freedom, the cars, from shell to suspension strength, suspension TRAVEL!!! to gearboxes reliability---directly tied to REMOVING from the DRIVER the job of selecting gears---, to engine and especially turbocharger lifespan, the CARS are HUGELY, BIG GIANT STEPS improved over the early 90s Group A cars.

They are essentially purpose built competition cars in EVERY detail now, then they were BASED ON production body shells and with the limitations that comes with that.
Suspension was max about 200mm travel... now at least 275, maybe 300mm
suspension had to be attached to the body within +-15mm. No funny fenders if they weren't made in series for 5000 road cars,

I want to ask when people have such obvious contempt for the achievements of people who they may have never seen, and it goes without saying, doing things that the complainer has never been close to doing:
Have you EVER seen the early 90s ccars driven by WRC drivers?
Ever [i]touched any parts, spent an hour going through the Homologation papers seeing what the parts that make up the car are like?

WAAAAAAAAaaaay back then the stuff was "pretty damn good" and crazy expensive.........Today the CARS are near perfect (hence the less than 2.5% difference in the speed between the amazing Loeb and the depressed, seemingly washed up hang dog Petter Solhberg only 2.5%) and to use the words of SEVERAL men who, unlike you, actually have driven both ;
"The cars are almost perfect--they just about drive themselves now..."

Sainz, McRae, Mäkinen all have said this about the modern World Rally Cars.
And they might possibly know just a bit more than a mere nameless fan.

Another factor is the current regs allows such few cars to qualify, and are so specialised and with the "can't homologate any new stuff" very often that
virtually nobody but 6 guys have top works spec, way beack when TOP works spec ---was NOT THAT FAR AHEAD of what LOTS MORE PEOPLE could scrape together.

And as for Championship, that is SEASON LONG Championship, yeah that's one thing but who cares?
[b]On individual events there were lots of people fighting for top 25 places in cars MUCH NEARER in terms of speed THE CAR WAS CAPABLE OF.

Thus it was harder then beating 12-15-20 near equal cars than just beating 2.

[rp]

Rally Finland crashes...

http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/maksuttomat/index.shtml/maksuttomat/ralli/ralli?139413#139413

[MikeD]

Go here:
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

And stay there.

Don't tell me where to go!!!

I was just refering to how things can change even though most take certain results for granted.

[N.O.T]

Because in the old days (stone age as you say) you would have 7-10 drivers all capable of winning when they had the chance. Ok with different machinery but all were heavy names. Some of them were at the end of their career some of them at the start. But it was different. When Auriol got the win Juha was second. Would you compare him with Hirvonen??
Take any 3 years you want from the stone age and tell me how many different winners you would have in 3 championships and how many in the last 3....?
And something else in the stone age the rallies were much more spectacular...
In the modern days you miss this excitement.

By numbers Loeb is the greatest of all times. He is a driving genius compared to the rest. Is he? For sure is great. No doubt about that. But he had too much positive parameters helping him up to now to his WRC career. A team and a car which was best suited to him. He never changed team and never experienced any serious difficulties with his car. I have nothing against him on the contrary I truly admire him for his achievements. But he is in an era where the competition is much more inferior and much more less. Simple as that.
With Gronholm for sure we watched some great battles, but it was just between them two...!

In the stone age you didn't know the top 3 spots before the beginning of the rally. And with absence of super rally someone made a mistake he was out of the event.

For you is evolution for me is just not interesting as it was.
Ask people what they would prefer to watch , the 2006 season on DVD or the 2001 or 1999, or 1995 season?

well Loeb actually won rallies and titles when Solberg, Burns, sainz, makinen, Colin, Martin, Auriol and others were still in the game....

as for the car and team i partially agree....Gronholm also had peugeot bending over for him and he did nothing in the 307 a car which was basically build around him since he was the only consistent driver in the team by the time. I think the result wouldn't be any different in Loeb was in Ford...

As for the competition capable of winning an event were 2-3 drivers max on normal rounds and then they were the tarmac experts (the fact that you had 5-7 holy ancient dinosaurs competing doesn;t mean they could also win)...same as today where you have also 3 drivers capable and on tarmac you have sordo as well....the only thing that i miss from wrc is a strong 3rd factory team nothing more.

[jonkka]

Unfortunately only in Finnish (again):
http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/Loebin+ajokiellon+k%C3%A4sittely+my%C3%B6h%C3%A4st yi+v%C3%A4%C3%A4rink%C3%A4sitysten+takia+kaksi+p%C 3%A4iv%C3%A4%C3%A4/1135238319501

I let my compatriots to translate. We might hear more of this...

[N.O.T]

Yes evolution. But ever since the subset of GpA which allows "World Rally Cars" to be built under much MUCH greater freedom, the cars, from shell to suspension strength, suspension TRAVEL!!! to gearboxes reliability---directly tied to REMOVING from the DRIVER the job of selecting gears---, to engine and especially turbocharger lifespan, the CARS are HUGELY, BIG GIANT STEPS improved over the early 90s Group A cars.

They are essentially purpose built competition cars in EVERY detail now, then they were BASED ON production body shells and with the limitations that comes with that.
Suspension was max about 200mm travel... now at least 275, maybe 300mm
suspension had to be attached to the body within +-15mm. No funny fenders if they weren't made in series for 5000 road cars,

I want to ask when people have such obvious contempt for the achievements of people who they may have never seen, and it goes without saying, doing things that the complainer has never been close to doing:
Have you EVER seen the early 90s ccars driven by WRC drivers?
Ever [b][i]touched any parts, spent an hour going through the Homologation papers seeing what the parts that make up the car are like?

WAAAAAAAAaaaay back then the stuff was "pretty damn good" and crazy expensive.........Today the CARS are near perfect (hence the less than 2.5% difference in the speed between the amazing Loeb and the depressed, seemingly washed up hang dog Petter Solhberg only 2.5%) and to use the words of SEVERAL men who, unlike you, actually have driven both ;
"The cars are almost perfect--they just about drive themselves now..."

Sainz, McRae, Mäkinen all have said this about the modern World Rally Cars.
And they might possibly know just a bit more than a mere nameless fan.


Thus it was harder then beating 12-15-20 near equal cars than just beating 2.

I don't say that the rallymen of the stone age were worse than today or the opposite i just say that Loeb is something special and the greatest of them all or at least as great as the legends of the sport....and i really cannot see why there is such a big need to diminish his achievements....

Rallying of the past-now and forever will be about driver skill.....no matter how good erfect and strong the car is.....put an ape in a top track car and he will be a top contender put an ape in a top rally car and he will be ridiculed (there are many examples of that)...thats why in rallying is far easier to conclude in the best of all times.

[MJW]

Just had a chance to look at the results - well done to Guy Wilks in an N3 Honda, 18th overall and beat all the JWRC regulars. I hope he gets his chance in a WRC car. I admit that I did not rate him a few years ago but now he is proving me wrong. I wonder where he would be if he had Matt Wilson's chances?

[jparker]

Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???

Why? Because the old rally cars were a lot more demanding, that's why.
If WRC continues this way, your "evolution" may end up with cars that don't require drivers at all.

[Torsen]

Why? Because the old rally cars were a lot more demanding, that's why.
If WRC continues this way, your "evolution" may end up with cars that don't require drivers at all.

yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...

i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

Unfortunately only in Finnish (again):
http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/Loebin+ajokiellon+k%C3%A4sittely+my%C3%B6h%C3%A4st yi+v%C3%A4%C3%A4rink%C3%A4sitysten+takia+kaksi+p%C 3%A4iv%C3%A4%C3%A4/1135238319501

I let my compatriots to translate. We might hear more of this...
I read about the 2000 eur speeding fine Loeb got today from the rally HQ notice board but didn't think there was anything more to it.

[ste898]

ok go back to the stone age then.....maybe in few years you will discover fire.

Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???

Loeb gave 100% to win in Finland and the ancient holy dinosaurs of rallying also gave 100% to win their battles as well...cannot see why was easier to win now from then? yes rallies were 100000 milles longer but also the final differences were count in years not seconds. As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....

Its called evolution


NOT if you cannot understand how it so so much easier to win these events now then you have a serious problem!!!!!

Events in 2000's 17-25 stages!!! Easy cars to drive (just about drive themselves)

Events in 80's and 90's anywhere between 35-55 stages 5 days and nights
no power steering and driver aids etc etc etc!!!!!!1

Get a grip man.....

[ste898]

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning... :


I think you got that wrong way round...

Being skillful in modern WRC car does'nt impress anyone..

Anyone that could drive a rear wheel drive or Group B car is a proper driver

[Nuts]

Some photos:

http://www.nutspix.com/

[Helstar]

As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....
Its called evolution
Yeah also SuperRally is an evolution ... you're so right. Also you are lying knowing you lie: 2 championship contenders LOL !

just because in your country people don't know who loeb is doesn't mean it takes ANYTHING away from him... thanks for letting us know about italian rally ignorance... :rolleyes:
Ah ah and look who's talking, most of USA people proudly thought WRC champion of the world was Pastrana ! Do me a favour, shut up next time :D

[Rani]

Why? Because the old rally cars were a lot more demanding, that's why.
If WRC continues this way, your "evolution" may end up with cars that don't require drivers at all.
Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.

[jonkka]

Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.

Cheers Rani!

[jparker]

yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...

i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:
The speed you are talking about comes from technology, not from driving skills. If that's your kind of rally, be my guest. Just don't use terms like "doesn't impress anyone", it doesn't sound right.

[gloomyDAY]

Everyone needs to stop whining about Loeb.

Citroen have made a superior car to the competition.
Maybe the rule changes will even things out, but I doubt it! The cream will rise to the top and Seb will still take top honors. I'm happy for Loeb and his achievement. As I stated earlier I am also feeling a bit frustrated by the rest of the field wallowing behind.


Good point. Having just seen the pathetic excuse of an F1 driver that Kovalainen is, winning his first race in the must lucky way, you never know what might happen in Germany.1) WRC and F1 are mutually exclusive sports. Why are you even mentioning what happened in Hungary as a parallel example of what happened in Finland? Pretty silly.

2) Kovy may have won by luck, but if it wasn't for his qualifying performance he would not have had the opportunity to win in the first place.

3) First of many for the Finn. Just watch buddy....

[jparker]

Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.

[HaCo]

What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning stirring wheel and braking.

And that is by far the most redeculous statement I have read today...

[gloomyDAY]

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.LOL!

I guess the cars literally do everything by themselves.

That or this man is driving the machine:

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/artman2/uploads/1/robocop.jpg

[Daniel]

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.

What a load of rubbish. The best drivers of the time will always be the best drivers. If you transported Loeb back to the mid 80's he would definitely be up there with the best at the time.

If driving a WRCar is so easy then why are there people like Rautencrash and Wilson around?

[jparker]

What a load of rubbish. The best drivers of the time will always be the best drivers. If you transported Loeb back to the mid 80's he would definitely be up there with the best at the time.

Not sure about that, not at all.

[Daniel]

Yes evolution. But ever since the subset of GpA which allows "World Rally Cars" to be built under much MUCH greater freedom, the cars, from shell to suspension strength, suspension TRAVEL!!! to gearboxes reliability---directly tied to REMOVING from the DRIVER the job of selecting gears---, to engine and especially turbocharger lifespan, the CARS are HUGELY, BIG GIANT STEPS improved over the early 90s Group A cars.

They are essentially purpose built competition cars in EVERY detail now, then they were BASED ON production body shells and with the limitations that comes with that.
Suspension was max about 200mm travel... now at least 275, maybe 300mm
suspension had to be attached to the body within +-15mm. No funny fenders if they weren't made in series for 5000 road cars,

I want to ask when people have such obvious contempt for the achievements of people who they may have never seen, and it goes without saying, doing things that the complainer has never been close to doing:
Have you EVER seen the early 90s ccars driven by WRC drivers?
Ever [i]touched any parts, spent an hour going through the Homologation papers seeing what the parts that make up the car are like?

WAAAAAAAAaaaay back then the stuff was "pretty damn good" and crazy expensive.........Today the CARS are near perfect (hence the less than 2.5% difference in the speed between the amazing Loeb and the depressed, seemingly washed up hang dog Petter Solhberg only 2.5%) and to use the words of SEVERAL men who, unlike you, actually have driven both ;
"The cars are almost perfect--they just about drive themselves now..."

Sainz, McRae, Mäkinen all have said this about the modern World Rally Cars.
And they might possibly know just a bit more than a mere nameless fan.

Another factor is the current regs allows such few cars to qualify, and are so specialised and with the "can't homologate any new stuff" very often that
virtually nobody but 6 guys have top works spec, way beack when TOP works spec ---was NOT THAT FAR AHEAD of what LOTS MORE PEOPLE could scrape together.

And as for Championship, that is SEASON LONG Championship, yeah that's one thing but who cares?
[B]On individual events there were lots of people fighting for top 25 places in cars MUCH NEARER in terms of speed THE CAR WAS CAPABLE OF.

Thus it was harder then beating 12-15-20 near equal cars than just beating 2.

All of which is fine and dandy gramps. But Loeb is still the best of the drivers out here at the moment. He put guys like McRae, Tommi, Sainz and co in the shade and none of them ever had a bad thing to say about him and his skill level. Perhaps the nameless fan is you? :laugh:

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much. If it were all so easy any twit with a few million dollars/pounds/euros off the street would be in the WRC and competing for victories. Funny thing is that it seems to be a lesser number of guys who can actually truly master WRCars and win rallies.

[jparker]

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much
True, but who does that control? Most of that control is taken away from drivers and given to high tech devices, so you are testing the machine, not the driver.

[MJW]

NOT if you cannot understand how it so so much easier to win these events now then you have a serious problem!!!!!

Events in 2000's 17-25 stages!!! Easy cars to drive (just about drive themselves)

Events in 80's and 90's anywhere between 35-55 stages 5 days and nights
no power steering and driver aids etc etc etc!!!!!!1

Get a grip man.....

Come on ste 898, I remember rallies from too long ago, and the modern rallies are all 100% commitment all the way, I was in Dalby on old RAC in 1988 on the last day and most of the field was in cruise to the finish mode. That does not happen any more. Surely we dont have 36 hours out of bed and drive around endurance rallies any more, nowadays its 3 days flat out commitment.

[N.O.T]

According to many peoples logic....why is it that we have so few guys who can antagonise Loeb since the car became eaier to drive? and drive by themselves shouldn't that mean that more drivers would be competitive ????????????????

[cali]

What a load of BS is going on here!!! Get real, this guy (Loeb) has broken all the records (remember, that in the beginning he was beating all the "great" drivers too). Good machinery + top talent + little bit of luck as well end you get this result. I do not think, that even Bosse could've stop him this time. Like Mikko said in the interviews, that they were going much faster than previous years (look at stage times + tyre disadvantage). And this back in the old days thing is hopless crying - every era has had some bright talents, but not as bright as this one!

[Miika]

If driving a WRCar is so easy then why are there people like Rautencrash and Wilson around?

Cause they can afford to? Getting to drive a WRC car has got nothing to do with talent when a single rally with a rather new car costs about 200 000 € (like Rantanen´s drive in this year´s NORF).

[MikeD]

1) WRC and F1 are mutually exclusive sports. Why are you even mentioning what happened in Hungary as a parallel example of what happened in Finland? Pretty silly.

Silly you!

I didn't mention it in relation to NORF. I mentioned it as an example that most fans expect Loeb to win on tarmac events to come - and todays crap F1 race in Hungary was a fine example that sometimes things goes in the exact opposite way. One of the slowest guys won, and the fast ones lost out.

[Daniel]

Cause they can afford to? Getting to drive a WRC car has got nothing to do with talent when a single rally with a rather new car costs about 200 000 € (like Rantanen´s drive in this year´s NORF).
What about Rautencrash? Why is he not winning? He has the money!

[jparker]

According to many peoples logic....why is it that we have so few guys who can antagonise Loeb since the car became eaier to drive? and drive by themselves shouldn't that mean that more drivers would be competitive ????????????????
The answer is no. Currently WRC is testing Citroen against Ford. Citroen is winning because they have superior car in therms of technlology. And because there are only two teams that can afford that kind of thechnology, you can't realy test the drivers skills. Loeb is the best driver among Hirvonen, JML, and Sordo. That's it.

[N.O.T]

and ford has how many cars in the championship ????????

[jparker]

and ford has how many cars in the championship ????????
2

[cut the b.s.]

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners

back then lots of people got to win, rallys were often won by several minutes, now the level to win has been raised, 1st by Gronholm and then by Loeb, heck Conrad might have had a shout on some events in the 80s!
Stats can be used to prove everything and nothing all at once, the fact is the best drivers win, the rest follow, and comments about how easy the cars are to drive? To a point this is true but only to a point, certainly wee Matty etc can make it look hard enough. And sideways driving? Anyone who has had the privilige to drive a well balanced and sorted car will know that it is easier to drift than to keep it clean and tidy

[N.O.T]

2

ok.... :rolleyes:

[N.O.T]

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners



you must also count that in the stone age with the 365 stages per day most of the wins came through problems of the leader and consistent driving....how many events of the stone events offered the excitement of rally NZ last year and Finand this year ??

[Daniel]

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners

back then lots of people got to win, rallys were often won by several minutes, now the level to win has been raised, 1st by Gronholm and then by Loeb, heck Conrad might have had a shout on some events in the 80s!
Stats can be used to prove everything and nothing all at once, the fact is the best drivers win, the rest follow, and comments about how easy the cars are to drive? To a point this is true but only to a point, certainly wee Matty etc can make it look hard enough. And sideways driving? Anyone who has had the privilige to drive a well balanced and sorted car will know that it is easier to drift than to keep it clean and tidy

This man speaks the truth.

[jparker]

This man speaks the truth.
Yes, he does in terms of true statistics. The interpretation of this statistics however is very questionable. For some it proves one thing, for other completely different.

[cali]

This man speaks the truth.

Read the last N.O.T.-s post and you see the reason behind it. Rallying has changed, but fast drivers will always be fast - just that one guy is inferior, like Schumi was in F1 (best car + talented driver). But behind it all is a hard work to develop a good car and getting comfortable with it. It's a work that Citroen and Loeb have mastered. That's it! I'm glad about Atko's pace - it gives me hope that just maybe we will see Subie again in the fight for top places. :cool:

[Daniel]

Read the last N.O.T.-s post and you see the reason behind it. Rallying has changed, but fast drivers will always be fast - just that one guy is inferior, like Schumi was in F1 (best car + talented driver). But behind it all is a hard work to develop a good car and getting comfortable with it. It's a work that Citroen and Loeb have mastered. That's it! I'm glad about Atko's pace - it gives me hope that just maybe we will see Subie again in the fight for top places. :cool:
I agree :) I don't think that Loeb is inferior to the other rallying gods that people speak of :)

[tmx]

Probably, but he'll be the closest to Loeb I think (maybe Sordo, mmmh) and eventually in front of him (although also very close), at least I hope so.

Last year Duval drove an Xsara. I am not really sure the Ford Focus will hold up the current C4 on tarmac for him to be able to fight for first place. And I was sure that it was Citroen internal plan for him to beat Marcus. I don't think it will be the same tactic here with Mikko fighting for championship. We'll just have to see. 1st or second place is tall expectation if he gets no testing.

Then we get the Subaru guys who said the car perform exceptionally on tarmac, we'll see if they are serious. The car does look to be more stable, if not fast.

[Woodeye]

This forum is a bit silly. You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. There's no way that you can know it or you can even compare it. Different eras, different drivers etc... Personally I couldn't care less.

At the moment Loeb is the fastest man in WRC and the victory in Jyväskylä proved this. It was a great battle to the end and it was great to follow it live once again. :) Congrats to Seb and Daniel for the victory.

And here's my favorite link from the weekend: If Garde wouldn't saved this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJdynTWY&feature=related

[gloomyDAY]

Silly you!

I didn't mention it in relation to NORF. I mentioned it as an example that most fans expect Loeb to win on tarmac events to come - and todays crap F1 race in Hungary was a fine example that sometimes things goes in the exact opposite way. One of the slowest guys won, and the fast ones lost out.Oh, this wasn't related to NORF? I must be in the wrong thread. Apparently the title says "2008 Neste Oil Rally Finland Official Thread". Sorry for the mistake. :D

You're still wrong about Kovy in Hungary. He's never been slow and won his maiden race.
Is there such a thing as an underachieving winner?
I'm not sure if you're familiar with racing. These type of results tend to occur.

[N.O.T]

You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJdynTWY&feature=related

and you come here and spoil the fun...you boring, boring man....

[janvanvurpa]

yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...

i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:

Torsen there's a nice post here somewhere where the (previous to this event) 5th in the Whole WORLD driver Dani Sordo, in an inarguable top car in a Finnish event entered to get Sordito a bit more time on the almost unique Finnish roads has 12th in the World Toni Gardemeister nipping at his heels and being as close as 1.4 sec/km to the times of Sordo in the WRC CITROEN.
Got that?
The interval was closer than usual for them.
Sordo in maybe the best WRC car.




Gardemeister was in his private, rwd BMW normal aspirated 6.

If YOU are not more impressed by Gardemeister's speed and style in that rwd Bmw so close to the current 5th in the World works driver in the best team, then you don't know what you're looking at.

For your record, the best Gp4 drivers in the stone-age rwd Escorts and Asconas and Fiat 131s etc average speed on stage was about 3mph slower than the best of the Group B super cars, a small difference visually.
Bear in mind that the same actual drivers were often in both the Gp4 cars and the GpB cars which replaced them. Single variable test.

You have NO IDEA how fast good rwd drivers were and still are.

If the flag by your name is correct, I can understand why you have no idea of what fast is because you've never seen FAST in USA.
If you think what you may have seen in USA is fast, reflect for a moment again on the placings or speed of Gardemeister and dozens of others similarly quick, and the results of the 2 drivers from SRTUSA when they've dared to enter WRC events.

[janvanvurpa]

This forum is a bit silly. You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. There's no way that you can know it or you can even compare it. Different eras, different drivers etc... Personally I couldn't care less.

At the moment Loeb is the fastest man in WRC and the victory in Jyväskylä proved this. It was a great battle to the end and it was great to follow it live once again. :) Congrats to Seb and Daniel for the victory.

And here's my favorite link from the weekend: If Garde wouldn't saved this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJdynTWY&feature=related

Oi oi oi I have put links to that on a couple of forums here in pooor neglected USA. It's times like that you rip the cloth off the seat with the butt-clench of the century! Saaaaataaaana!

But
I don't think anybody half serious would suggest that Loeb ISN'T the best now and has been for a while, no matter how much I like what I saw of Bosses personality.
I even said, we know he'll win unless there is some screw-up somewhere.

My point was he has just 2 very good but only 2 real threats and those 2 boys have less time than he at the top so less threat than at some times in the past when there was 10-12 equally experienced drivers in works cars.

[janvanvurpa]

All of which is fine and dandy gramps. But Loeb is still the best of the drivers out here at the moment. He put guys like McRae, Tommi, Sainz and co in the shade and none of them ever had a bad thing to say about him and his skill level. Perhaps the nameless fan is you? :laugh:

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much. If it were all so easy any twit with a few million dollars/pounds/euros off the street would be in the WRC and competing for victories. Funny thing is that it seems to be a lesser number of guys who can actually truly master WRCars and win rallies.

Well sonny boy, I've never suggested Loeb isn't the best guy out there.
Quite the opposite, laddie.

You can search and waste your time---you obviously have lots of it--- to find the statements from McCrae, and Sainz etc. It's there in the record about "they nearly drive themselves".

Your last bit: FEWER GOOD DRIVERS seem to be able to find a way into works seats IF THEY DON'T have MILLIONS of personal money from daddy or tolerant sponsors just because there are so many rich "Gentleman drivers" filling all the places aside from the works Fords, Citras and Subarus.
The paradigm of how whole operations are financed, and thus who GETS to drive has changed to the model which ruins all other car racing.

Quadrupling or more the cost of the cars and spares tends to weed out all but the well financed.

[Mickey T]

its like schumacher writing off a ferrari road car 3 weeks ago on the notorious nurgenburg, then last week he had another road accident in a fiat van near silverstone... they think there are invincible on the roads as they are on the tracks.

schumacher was in the passenger seat of the ferrari at the nurburging.

i don't think you can blame him for that one.

[ShiftingGears]

I think you got that wrong way round...

Being skillful in modern WRC car does'nt impress anyone..

Except the people who appreciate drivers who have the talent to be faster than everyone else given any car.


Several people were blaming Loeb's advantage on active diffs in the WRC a few years ago. Since that was removed, he was still fastest. Coincidence? No.


FAST DRIVERS ARE FAST DRIVERS.



Anyone that could drive a rear wheel drive or Group B car is a proper driver

I can drive a rear wheel drive car. Wheres my medal?

[N.O.T]

Several people were blaming Loeb's advantage on active diffs in the WRC a few years ago. Since that was removed, he was still fastest. Coincidence? No.


and lets not forget the super fast secret michelin tyres only Loeb had to his disposal...

[PMM]

My pics from NORF 2008:
http://www.rallikuvat.net/2008/norf/index.php

[duff]

Except the people who appreciate drivers who have the talent to be faster than everyone else given any car.

Several people were blaming Loeb's advantage on active diffs in the WRC a few years ago. Since that was removed, he was still fastest. Coincidence? No.

FAST DRIVERS ARE FAST DRIVERS.


That’s exactly it.

Any of us who have spent time driving in stages know that the amount of variables in any given stage is huge. Driving a rally car really fast on a stage is a very difficult thing to do, and a very easy thing to get wrong and end up off the road. Every corner is different and, even with pace notes, you are never 100% sure what is coming down the next stretch of road. How advanced your car is is only a part (admittedly a large one) of the in stage variables.

Yes the cars are MUCH easier to drive than the good old days, but when it comes down to it the car does not drive itself. The driver still needs to steer, brake, accelerate, listen to pace notes, read the road, use his judgement, take risks just as much as they ever did.
The car is just the tool of the sport. Whether its easier/harder to drive, more/less sideways, fwd/rwd or 4wd, as long as everyone is in similar equipment its the guy behind the steering wheel that makes the difference.

I am not a fan of Loebs, I would rather see another guy winning for a change, but lets give credit where credit is due - to the guy who out drove everyone else in the same event, under the same regulations, to take the win in NORF 2008.

I'm sure the debate will rage on, but when it comes down to it it’s the record book that tells the story - and Loeb's name is all over it.

[cali]

That’s exactly it.

Any of us who have spent time driving in stages know that the amount of variables in any given stage is huge. Driving a rally car really fast on a stage is a very difficult thing to do, and a very easy thing to get wrong and end up off the road. Every corner is different and, even with pace notes, you are never 100% sure what is coming down the next stretch of road. How advanced your car is is only a part (admittedly a large one) of the in stage variables.

Yes the cars are MUCH easier to drive than the good old days, but when it comes down to it the car does not drive itself. The driver still needs to steer, brake, accelerate, listen to pace notes, read the road, use his judgement, take risks just as much as they ever did.
The car is just the tool of the sport. Whether its easier/harder to drive, more/less sideways, fwd/rwd or 4wd, as long as everyone is in similar equipment its the guy behind the steering wheel that makes the difference.

I am not a fan of Loebs, I would rather see another guy winning for a change, but lets give credit where credit is due - to the guy who out drove everyone else in the same event, under the same regulations, to take the win in NORF 2008.

I'm sure the debate will rage on, but when it comes down to it it’s the record book that tells the story - and Loeb's name is all over it.

Best post by far!!

[Timole]

my pics Norf 2008 (http://rallyphotos.pri.ee/Hooaeg%202008/Neste%20Oil%20Rally%20Finland%20(Soome)/index.html).

[MartijnS]

Excellent pictures Timo!

[jure dvorsek]

It is nice to read all opinions-but from my point of view Loeb has made the last step to the fifth title-if no technichal problems stops C4, no way Mikko can beat Seb. Last year at this time he was 13 points behind Markus, now yust one. And on tarmac-no chance for Mikko to be in front of both Citroen's. Even more-has has also Duval to watch on !!
It is also a question, what means this lost battle on homeground for Mikko-I mean about motivation ???
I understand Mikko's fans-it is hard to belive, but Loeb has now all the best cards in his hands.
Germany, France and Spain-three big wins in the row.....

[White Sauron]

It is nice to read all opinions-but from my point of view Loeb has made the last step to the fifth title-if no technichal problems stops C4, no way Mikko can beat Seb. Last year at this time he was 13 points behind Markus, now yust one. And on tarmac-no chance for Mikko to be in front of both Citroen's. Even more-has has also Duval to watch on !!
It is also a question, what means this lost battle on homeground for Mikko-I mean about motivation ???
I understand Mikko's fans-it is hard to belive, but Loeb has now all the best cards in his hands.
Germany, France and Spain-three big wins in the row.....

Well, nothing is certain on Earth. For example, Basso was also favorite to win in Madeira, but... One mistake, and even great pace isn't enough to clinch the victory. And even Loeb, even on his favorite ground in Germany or France, isn't guaranteed to triumph: a wrong tyre choice, the weather's surprise or smth else, not talking about possible technical problems, can deprive him of victory. So we just have to wait and see, but not rush in conclusions that the destiny of the championship is already decided - it's actually a reall bull..., especially in motorsport. Being the best driver out there, Seb can surely set a new record of 7 wins on one event in a row, but at the same time with just the same probability he can retire: we can't know the outcome before the rally finishes.

[jonlint]

Back from Finland - had a blast! Also got an honorary diploma in Finnish Sauna stamina!

Look out for Matti Rantanen - 7th in his first outing in a WRC car, beating Munchi's guys and Matthew Wlson and others.

First batch of my pics are on http://www.kickastra.com. Much more to come.

[cut the b.s.]

Look out for Matti Rantanen - 7th in his first outing in a WRC car, beating Munchi's guys and Matthew Wlson and others.

.


Now theres a result totally overlooked here, who is he? Is this really his 1st WR car drive? Or his 1st time using one on a WRC event? Certainly a great showing from him over the weekend. I'd like to know more about him and his plans etc as he was totally unknown to me on thursday.

[Fly]

Now theres a result totally overlooked here, who is he? Is this really his 1st WR car drive? Or his 1st time using one on a WRC event? Certainly a great showing from him over the weekend. I'd like to know more about him and his plans etc as he was totally unknown to me on thursday.

He's 27, finished 3rd in JWRC on rally Finland 2006 as a guest driving a group N Civic. Has been driving a group N Mitsu for 1,5 year now. First time on a WRCar.

[kleisj]

That’s exactly it.

Any of us who have spent time driving in stages know that the amount of variables in any given stage is huge. Driving a rally car really fast on a stage is a very difficult thing to do, and a very easy thing to get wrong and end up off the road. Every corner is different and, even with pace notes, you are never 100% sure what is coming down the next stretch of road. How advanced your car is is only a part (admittedly a large one) of the in stage variables.

Yes the cars are MUCH easier to drive than the good old days, but when it comes down to it the car does not drive itself. The driver still needs to steer, brake, accelerate, listen to pace notes, read the road, use his judgement, take risks just as much as they ever did.
The car is just the tool of the sport. Whether its easier/harder to drive, more/less sideways, fwd/rwd or 4wd, as long as everyone is in similar equipment its the guy behind the steering wheel that makes the difference.

I am not a fan of Loebs, I would rather see another guy winning for a change, but lets give credit where credit is due - to the guy who out drove everyone else in the same event, under the same regulations, to take the win in NORF 2008.

I'm sure the debate will rage on, but when it comes down to it it’s the record book that tells the story - and Loeb's name is all over it.

I agree .
And I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression with my posts.

Even if the WRC cars are easier to drive than the Group A cars that doesn't mean a lot regarding the efforts of the drivers. Is very demanding to drive even a N2 car in a rally to say the least. To be on the limit all the time with a WRC car is something to applaud not criticise for sure...
My point was not to undermine the efforts of the rest of WRC drivers....

I rate Loeb at the highest level. I just thought that if he was in another era the records wouldn't be as easy to achieve as in the current era. And this because also the teams back then would pay the driver to do the job. Thus we were watching the elite of rally drivers. Here half the grid pay or have their sponsors pay for their drive... The competition is in the lowest level since the pay and drive thing came into the WRC life at the current extent... simple as that.

I do respect every driver from the 1st to the last but the true fact is that very few can do the required job.

[samzon]

my pics from 2008 neste rally finland :eek:

http://www.samzon.kuvat.fi/kuvat/

[Juha]

My pics from Finland: http://www.rallyfoto.be

[Koppomsbo]

Sorry if i missed it, anyone have some info about Seb beeing caught speeding?

[janneppi]

He was caught doing 100kph in a 60 kph area before the rally.

[Miika]

Gabor Meyr, Andrea Cortinovis and Vytautas Baranauskas were caught speeding last Tuesday and immediately lost their driving license that very same day - and weren´t in the end allowed to start the rally. On Wednesday a fairly unknown French fellow called Sebastien Loeb was caught speeding 41km/h over the limit - just like Baraunauskas. For some unknown reason the police didn´t deal with Loeb´s speeding issue until Sunday after the rally - the person deciding about the driving license ban got the information about Loeb´s speeding on Friday two days after the speeding happened and then it was too late to stop Seb from starting the rally - go figure..

In Finnish:
http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/Loebin+ajokiellon+k%C3%A4sittely+my%C3%B6h%C3%A4st yi+v%C3%A4%C3%A4rink%C3%A4sitysten+takia+kaksi+p%C 3%A4iv%C3%A4%C3%A4/1135238319501

[N.O.T]

I think its stupid for rally drivers not to allow to participate in a rally because of something so small as a speeding ticket.....in the case of Meyr and Cortinovis the police did a stupid thing...

[Tomi]

I think its stupid for rally drivers not to allow to participate in a rally because of something so small as a speeding ticket.....in the case of Meyr and Cortinovis the police did a stupid thing...

so you think the law should be different if the guy happens to be a rally driver?

[Daniel]

so you think the law should be different if the guy happens to be a rally driver?
I think surely competition and driving on the road should be separate. If Loeb had lost his licence what problem is there with him driving on the stages and having Elena driving on the public roads? I think this is a more sensible way to deal with things. I think the rules of the country you're in should be accepted and abided by. You have to wonder why Loeb was treated differently to these other drivers. But then again it's obvious why :) Money talks and privateers get excluded. Good fight for the win though :p

[Tomi]

I think surely competition and driving on the road should be separate. If Loeb had lost his licence what problem is there with him driving on the stages and having Elena driving on the public roads? I think this is a more sensible way to deal with things. I think the rules of the country you're in should be accepted and abided by. You have to wonder why Loeb was treated differently to these other drivers. But then again it's obvious why :) Money talks and privateers get excluded. Good fight for the win though :p

Yes money seems to talk, also Citroen should stop to use their wrc testcar on public roads after the roads are not closed anymore.

[DonJippo]

If Loeb had lost his licence what problem is there with him driving on the stages and having Elena driving on the public roads?

The problem is that by the Finnish traffic law you can drive without a driving licence only on closed road section where there are no other cars, a special stage of a rally does not fulfill these requirements as there are other cars on the stage at the same time.

Apart the police nobody really knows for sure why Loeb got a different treatment compared to others who were caught , not so famous drives, maybe because this is no Monte-Carlo where you get disqualified due to wrong type of headlights....

[N.O.T]

just a question to the finnish people...which win ridiculed the local boys more and made you so bitter ?? Martins or Loebs ?? can we have a poll ???

[jiipee64]

>>which win ridiculed the local boys more and made you so bitter ??
>>Martins or Loebs ?? can we have a poll ???

Ericsson 1989!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[N.O.T]

my god...a Swede winning in Finland....the world is a different place since that event occured...

[Helstar]

Well, nothing is certain on Earth. For example, Basso was also favorite to win in Madeira, but... One mistake, and even great pace isn't enough to clinch the victory. And even Loeb, even on his favorite ground in Germany or France, isn't guaranteed to triumph: a wrong tyre choice, the weather's surprise or smth else, not talking about possible technical problems, can deprive him of victory.
He'll win, you can't hope those things happen. You have to seek about Rautenbach or Elena wrong notes ;p

Anyway, before the year I was totally sure Loeb would win the championship hands down already in the middle of the season, instead it has been tight until now (the difference is in Jordan, without that accident on road section, then Loeb would be already quite ahead). At least thanx to this 'battle', thanx to JML raw speed and first victory record in Sweden and thanx to Gigi of course :D we are having little more than zero emotions.

[Tomi]

just a question to the finnish people...which win ridiculed the local boys more and made you so bitter ?? Martins or Loebs ?? can we have a poll ???

Neither one i guess, it takes skill and balls to win here, everyone knows that only a topdriver can do that, but i personally rank Loebs win higher, because Märtin did have no real competition after the Peugeot bearring episode.

[DonJippo]

just a question to the finnish people...which win ridiculed the local boys more and made you so bitter ?? Martins or Loebs ?? can we have a poll ???

Neither one, don't quite get it why you think we are bitter? Thing is we do recognise true champions and give them the credit what they deserve. During the years we have had all sort of lucky champions and world best drivers trying to win NORF but they have failed in it for obvious reasons, it takes more than just being lucky to win NORF.

So maybe you should try to find someone else to fight with today, like I noticed you managed to do yesterday, because all in all this is just sport and there are far more important things in life than to be bitter because Sebastien Loeb won NORF 2008 after all he is real champion not a lucky winner.

[MJW]

He's 27, finished 3rd in JWRC on rally Finland 2006 as a guest driving a group N Civic. Has been driving a group N Mitsu for 1,5 year now. First time on a WRCar.
So thats who he is?
I was there and he was absolutely amazing in the Civic in 2006.

[Brother John]

So maybe you should try to find someone else to fight with today, like I noticed you managed to do yesterday, because all in all this is just sport and there are far more important things in life than to be bitter because Sebastien Loeb won NORF 2008 after all he is real champion not a lucky winner.

This is the best post i saw today. :up: Thanks my friend. :s mokin:

[Tomi]

So thats who he is?
I was there and he was absolutely amazing in the Civic in 2006.

Yes, I had a chance to talk with him at the shakedown, he seems like a guy who walk on the ground and according to him self, he was there only to do a few competitive stage times.
Funny is that he said its difficult to get the Focus going without using the launch system, at the first stage he stalled the car in the corner we where spectating, lol it sure took some time for him to get it going again.

[A.F.F.]

Rally is over and I'm tired but very happy :)

And boy, what a rally it was. :eek: Loeb and Hirvonen were SO MUCH faster than anybody else. You really can't understand the speed if you can't see them live. Both took enourmous risks and drove flat out. Interesting was to see that mikko had much more aggressive style than Loeb but Loeb's way turned to be more effective in the end. Congrats to Sebastien and Daniel, true champions of rallying :up:

Another drivers only got star points. Gigi was the best out of them. We had an excellent spectating point where Gigi was just unbelieveble. Folks spectating actually falled down when he passed by :D

Huge props to Matti Rantanen too. I like his driving and I like his attitude. One to follow in the future.

Also, my greatest appreciation to forumteam again who made this trip more than worthy... again. :)

[c4]

A few mangled motors over the weekend
http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/loeb-wins-neste-oil-rally-finland-2008-42nd-wrc-victory/

Well done Seb, Atko and Matti Rantanen

Wilks has done himself no harm this weekend either.

[N.O.T]

Another question from outer space...

Why Galli used finnish pace notes on the super special ????

[Tomi]

Another question from outer space...

Why Galli used finnish pace notes on the super special ????

maybe same reason why hirvonen used italian notes, i think it tells about what they actually think about superspecials.

[Sami]

Greetings from Jyväskylä trip, my 16th in a row.

My rally spectating always starts with a thorough recce of the stages. Saturday was an interesting rally day with plenty new in the route.

I found a really interesting tightening right over crest from Himos stage. On Kakaristo I fell in love with a breathtaking flat jump right to tightening left over crest which was really confusing and difficult. On Juupajoki there's a nice crest braking 30 to fast tightening left. It seemed that the route was really difficult, especially those three places that I was gonna watch.

First in the morning I went to Himos. Hirvonen started the show with a beautiful save hanging by the edge of a ditch. Then after couple of close calls Aava hit the bank with the rear of his car and then hit the front and span over. Spectators helped him back to the right direction. Then came Latvala who hit the bank and ended up in the ditch. Quickly spectators carried him back on the road and he could continue. After that it seemed that everyone was in trouble and there was 18 (!) off the road excursion that needed spectators help to be able to continue. Several cars had to retire because of accident damage, and three cars rolled, including Sandell and Pinomäki.

Then to Kakaristo, where Henning started the show hanging on the edge of a cliff at 150km/h! That was a huge save! Galli came a bit faster and in a totally wrong line jumping directly off the road with no chance to save. He didn't even touch the road but flew directly to the ravine rolling the car several times. I run to the car and Galli laid on his back on the roof of the upside down car. I asked if he was okay and he replied me irritated with a shout I´M OKAY I´M OKAY!!! Then he asked where are we? and where is the road. I pointed him the five metres up visible road, and he said oh...

Then came Andersson with a high speed off ending up towards a big tree. One tree fell down and stuck the road, but was quickly removed by the spectators. Andersson put a triangle on the road but in a useless place, just on top of the latter jump hiding in the right. Salo came and couldn’t see the triangle until it was too late. He came flat out to the first jump and it is impossible to stay on the road at that speed. He rolled spectacularly over Galli’s car which was still at the bottom of the ravine. What a relief that no one get hurt in this really high speed place. After Salo´s accident the triangle was moved on top of the first jump but still for example Ogier, Wilks and Ceccoli had serious close calls there!

Then we went Juupajoki, where we witnessed Villagra’s and Arminen’s rolls and Companc’s and Aava’s close calls.

So we witnessed 23 offs and 8 rolls in one day…

About the competition itself Loeb controlled the rally, so he deserved it. Hirvonen was really on his limits with wider lines and more close calls. It would have been interesting to see Latvala’s performance later on, but he wasn’t ready, yet, and drove off twice…

Atko did good as well as Rantanen. Hänninen isn’t the fastest, but knows that result counts.

The most pleasant to watch was Sebastien Ogier, he drove amazingly, reminded me of Loeb a couple of years ago. Retired from fourth position in r2, amazing! There’s now a lot of Ogier fans in Finland after his performance, it is nice that many have noticed his drive at the end of the start field.

Great rally again.

[Daniel]

The problem is that by the Finnish traffic law you can drive without a driving licence only on closed road section where there are no other cars, a special stage of a rally does not fulfill these requirements as there are other cars on the stage at the same time.

Apart the police nobody really knows for sure why Loeb got a different treatment compared to others who were caught , not so famous drives, maybe because this is no Monte-Carlo where you get disqualified due to wrong type of headlights....

Fair enough :up: In that case I guess you could reasonably argue that Loeb shouldn't have been driving in the rally. I wonder if Citroen used some kind of delaying tactics and there is some sort of hearing that is going on/has gone on after the rally. It stinks that the others have not had the same treatment though.....


Another drivers only got star points. Gigi was the best out of them. We had an excellent spectating point where Gigi was just unbelieveble. Folks spectating actually falled down when he passed by :D

Lots of drunks this year? :p

Also as a sidenote.... N.O.T :) As much as I agree with you sometimes I think you're very much wrong. The forum Finns that I have met aren't the Finnish equivalent to English football fans who want to see their team win and think that everything is **** unless England wins. These guys are real rally fans and they love to see good rallying no matter who wins which is the way it should be. Of course they would rather have seen Mikko win a fair fight but that's just human nature.

[Helstar]

Why Galli used finnish pace notes on the super special ????

maybe same reason why hirvonen used italian notes, i think it tells about what they actually think about superspecials.
I think it was a tribute to Finland, simply :D
Much like when he used a Portugal t-shirt in the 2007 Superspecial ... showman :p

Gigi was the best out of them. We had an excellent spectating point where Gigi was just unbelieveble. Folks spectating actually falled down when he passed by :D

Mh ? He flew over their heads ? lol
Seriously, what did he do ? Massive long jump ? Or just totally sideway throwing dirt and stones everywhere XD ?


Then to Kakaristo, where Henning started the show hanging on the edge of a cliff at 150km/h!

Yes they showed it in the TV ... great save, like Hirvonen in 2007 in another SS.


I run to the car and Galli laid on his back on the roof of the upside down car. I asked if he was okay and he replied me irritated with a shout I´M OKAY I´M OKAY!!! Then he asked where are we? and where is the road. I pointed him the five metres up visible road, and he said oh...

Lol I think he wanted to understand if he could come back ... that was crazy anyway xD
About the harsh reply, it's normal when you have realized in that moment that you just trashed your possible first podium in Finland ...


The most pleasant to watch was Sebastien Ogier, he drove amazingly, reminded me of Loeb a couple of years ago. Retired from fourth position in r2, amazing! There’s now a lot of Ogier fans in Finland after his performance, it is nice that many have noticed his drive at the end of the start field.

Ogier instead of Sordo next year in Citroen in gravel rallies :p ! So maybe there will actually be 4 cars fighting for the victory ... (better than 2-3 surely ^^)

[A.F.F.]

Lots of drunks this year? :p


Unfortunately yes. Maybe not more than previous years but they were more drunk. Brother John and I basicly saved on sorry ass Latvian since he was standing on stage just staring the upcoming car. :down: I just can't understand it. NORF has changed to some sort of ****ing festival instead of a rally.


I
Mh ? He flew over their heads ? lol
Seriously, what did he do ? Massive long jump ? Or just totally sideway throwing dirt and stones everywhere XD ?


Well, he actually flew over their heads :) We were standing just behind a small crest which was a gently sloping right. After that was an uphill and a 90 degree right so what the drivers had to do right after the crest was to break the pace of. Most of them, including Loeb even did break before the crest. Anyway, there was a deep and relatively wide ditch between the road and our spectating point. Many cut just to the edge of the ditch and as they had break before the crest, they went neatly ( and boringly ) to the uphill. But when Galli came, he cut OVER the ditch and the car got a jump from some stone and basicly FLEW right before us so we could see the bottom of the car and to the other side of the road to another ditch when he started breaking :D I'm not lying, the car wasn't too far from us and a young couple actually falled down as he went by. It was unbelievable :D Mikko took the same place very good too. And Juha Salo.

[Juha]

I confirm that. The images (although badly filmed) were impressive.

[Daniel]

Unfortunately yes. Maybe not more than previous years but they were more drunk. Brother John and I basicly saved on sorry ass Latvian since he was standing on stage just staring the upcoming car. :down: I just can't understand it. NORF has changed to some sort of ****ing festival instead of a rally.

Yes that's the only thing I dislike about the event. We were at Ouninpohja last year and Caroline had just found a spot where she would be able to see a tiny bit of the action and some huge guy comes and stands right in front of her :confused:

As for people standing on the road..... it's always funny until someone gets hurt.

Here is a picture from 3 years ago. I kind of thought it was funny after I took it but it's not really cool at all. I like being close but the thought of being close to a car near jumps while I was intoxicated (these people were frigging drunk) just scares me.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/CrazyLatvians.JPG

[Tomi]

Unfortunately yes. Maybe not more than previous years but they were more drunk. Brother John and I basicly saved on sorry ass Latvian since he was standing on stage just staring the upcoming car. :down: I just can't understand it. NORF has changed to some sort of ****ing festival instead of a rally.



Well, he actually flew over their heads :) We were standing just behind a small crest which was a gently sloping right. After that was an uphill and a 90 degree right so what the drivers had to do right after the crest was to break the pace of. Most of them, including Loeb even did break before the crest. Anyway, there was a deep and relatively wide ditch between the road and our spectating point. Many cut just to the edge of the ditch and as they had break before the crest, they went neatly ( and boringly ) to the uphill. But when Galli came, he cut OVER the ditch and the car got a jump from some stone and basicly FLEW right before us so we could see the bottom of the car and to the other side of the road to another ditch when he started breaking :D I'm not lying, the car wasn't too far from us and a young couple actually falled down as he went by. It was unbelievable :D Mikko took the same place very good too. And Juha Salo.

the place is about 200m ahead from where Mikkelsen vent off, his off was really a close call, 1m more to the right and he would have to look for a new co-driver, both guys was in kind of a chock.

[Juha]

Luckily for him the rallyforum.com psychology crew was on the spot to give first aid. :p

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5098/mikkelsenlz0.jpg

[Tomi]

Luckily for him the rallyforum.com psychology crew was on the spot to give first aid. :p

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5098/mikkelsenlz0.jpg

How much do you think would be ok to charge?

[Juha]

He should have paid our dinner at Jämsänkoski. ;)

[Daniel]

Luckily for him the rallyforum.com psychology crew was on the spot to give first aid. :p

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5098/mikkelsenlz0.jpg
Good work. It's never smart to show the faces of FRM members. If you did you'd wake up with a reindeer head next to you in the morning......

[Juha]

Do you see a face on that pic, apart from Mikkelsen? ;)

[Daniel]

Do you see a face on that pic, apart from Mikkelsen? ;)
That's why I said good work ;)

[pino]

Back from Finland and once again must say it was an amazing experience :up: the stages we spectated were cool especially the one were Mikkelsen went off (not because of that though) We were just on that long straits before the jump Mikkelsen missunderstood or got a wrong note as he told me ;) Anyway from were we where we could see who had the balls to not to brake before the jump, only 4 drivers didn't brake : Loeb, Mikko, Gigi and Atkinson :s mokin: Again our Finns forumers were great, everything was perfectly organized, so a big big thanks :up: to everyone who was there and did a great job. See you next year Guys :D

[Ghostwalker]

. See you next year Guys :D

Pino,there is no rally finland next year you'll have to wait for two whole years for the next Rally Finland. ;) :(

[Tomi]

Pino,there is no rally finland next year you'll have to wait for two whole years for the next Rally Finland. ;) :(

that is offcourse nonsence.

[jonkka]

Pino,there is no rally finland next year you'll have to wait for two whole years for the next Rally Finland. ;) :(

You mean 2010 there isn't... if FIA rotation plans hold...

[rozsa]

Our photos could be find in the following webpage:
http://www.rallyfoto.hu

[Garry Walker]

My friend visits quite a few rallies every year, he was also in finland.

We talked yesterday and he still couldn`t stop laughing about something that Hirvonen said after the rally had finished, namely, he promised to beat Loeb in Germany :D

[A.F.F.]

My friend visits quite a few rallies every year, he was also in finland.

We talked yesterday and he still couldn`t stop laughing about something that Hirvonen said after the rally had finished, namely, he promised to beat Loeb in Germany :D

Sorry, I missed the punchline there. Mikko indeed said that from now on he just can't drive for secure points but he has to go and drive for the win in every rally, even the tarmac ones.

[Anderton]

Sorry, I missed the punchline there. Mikko indeed said that from now on he just can't drive for secure points but he has to go and drive for the win in every rally, even the tarmac ones.
He wont beat Loeb OR Sordo on tarmac, going by JUST pace. It just realisticly wont happen :(

[A.F.F.]

He wont beat Loeb OR Sordo on tarmac, going by JUST pace. It just realisticly wont happen :(

Yes, I know that probably won't happen, especially speedwise but the point is the attitude. He won't go there cruising what he could do.

[Helstar]

The C4 is a beast on tarmac. On Monte it was like the car eats the road, both Loeb and Sordo (by their skill also) always came faster from the straights, and also in the corners they were doing at least 10kph+ more than the others (Ford, Subaru, etc.). I was impressed about the raw power of their engine and also the lateral grip (having changed the tyres since the previous year). They actually adapted to Pirelli at once !

It's luck for Ford they don't have other cars on road (Aava is not there, right ?), otherwise it would be a problem for Hirvonen and company.

[Viking]

The C4 is a beast on tarmac. On Monte it was like the car eats the road, both Loeb and Sordo (by their skill also) always came faster from the straights, and also in the corners they were doing at least 10kph+ more than the others (Ford, Subaru, etc.). I was impressed about the raw power of their engine and also the lateral grip (having changed the tyres since the previous year). They actually adapted to Pirelli at once !

It's luck for Ford they don't have other cars on road (Aava is not there, right ?), otherwise it would be a problem for Hirvonen and company.

Both Aava and Rautenbach is on the list of entries, so I guess after your speed observations (10kph+) Conrad will be on the podium….. or maybe not :D

[jonkka]

Originally number 65 Tapio Suominen evo9 will drive number 144 instead of Gabor Mayer Impreza.
Mayer´s Impreza is in servicepark, so I don´t no why Suominen is driving with Gabokos number.

Can anyone confirm whether Suominen drove Mitsubishi (as originally listed) or did he get Gabor's Subaru?

[DonJippo]

Can anyone confirm whether Suominen drove Mitsubishi (as originally listed) or did he get Gabor's Subaru?

Mitsubishi http://www.rallyfoto.be/albums/830/html/144b.html

[jiipee64]

Here is the switch...

[jonkka]

Thanks DJ and jiipee, I happened to see a photo of Suominen in Mitsubishi's site just before I came back here... :)

[playmo]

I wonder if Mikko will get near 3rd place on Germany? realisticaly it's possible, but not quite likely to happen, what do you guys think?

[HaCo]

I wonder if Mikko will get near 3rd place on Germany? realisticaly it's possible, but not quite likely to happen, what do you guys think?
If no one goes off or has technical problems I don't think Mikko will be in front of Loeb, Sordo or Duval. Also Atko, if he stays on the road, could be faster than Mikko.
Didn't the Ford boys had some tarmac exercise some time ago?

[playmo]

... I don't think Mikko will be in front of Loeb, Sordo or Duval. Also Atko...

That's more or less the prediction (and my thoughts too), but i wouldn't count that much on Duval (he's as unpredictable as Latvala), i think the fight for 2nd will be Atkinson against Sordo.

I'm still quite surprised by Atko's 3rd in Finland (it ranks him higher on my list) but i'm still waiting for such performance from Petter.

Was such a great drive from Seb, that makes me wonder what would have been if Bosse would've been around... (and for that matter: Colin, Carlos, Richard, Markko, etc, etc). You all know how good pace notes Seb does, and how he performs on "new" events (routes or overall)...

[Tomi]

Thanks to the "Hauhonpohja guys" and A.F.F. for the nice time during the rally, I havent had this fun since my granny lost the brakes in her motorbike.

[alleskids]

Duval will recieve an onboard message to..take a pitstop..if he is in front of Hirvonen, especially with the World Championship so close tight.

[tmx]

That's more or less the prediction (and my thoughts too), but i wouldn't count that much on Duval (he's as unpredictable as Latvala), i think the fight for 2nd will be Atkinson against Sordo.

I'm still quite surprised by Atko's 3rd in Finland (it ranks him higher on my list) but i'm still waiting for such performance from Petter.

Was such a great drive from Seb, that makes me wonder what would have been if Bosse would've been around... (and for that matter: Colin, Carlos, Richard, Markko, etc, etc). You all know how good pace notes Seb does, and how he performs on "new" events (routes or overall)...

Duval has mature to consistent level now I think, did he crash out in his outings in 2007 with Citroen and then Ford in Monte Carlo? Okay he didn't finish corsica and Acropolis that year, but it was mechanical issues. I think like Gigi he is more in control now.

[jbanbury]

I've uploaded a few photos from Finland if anyone fancies a look ..

http://www.rally-shots.com

[Helstar]

Both Aava and Rautenbach is on the list of entries, so I guess after your speed observations (10kph+) Conrad will be on the podium….. or maybe not :D
:p I don't know how good Aava is on tarmac, but Rautenbach with a Xsara WRC was even slower than Broccoli with a Clio R

The speed observations can be proved easily by the videos I did. Want to see some examples ? (don't know how to keep the sound when converting from the camera videoformat though :\ !).

[janneppi]

Interestingly enough, Subaru had an engireer with a speed radar after a junction at stage 20. Above him there was some bloke who managed to look at the recorded speeds, Rautenbacher had the best speed of 98kph, Loeb 96kph, Mikko, 94kph and Gardemeister were something like 88-89kph. ;)

[bluuford]

Interestingly enough, Subaru had an engireer with a speed radar after a junction at stage 20. Above him there was some bloke who managed to look at the recorded speeds, Rautenbacher had the best speed of 98kph, Loeb 96kph, Mikko, 94kph and Gardemeister were something like 88-89kph. ;)

While I was spectator in South-Estonian rally then I found out that Rautenbach was actually as fast as Aava through the junctions (sometimes even faster) but was much slower on faster corners. So, in slow places he is actually quite good but in the corners where Aava didnt lift it was clearly visible that Rautenbach slowed quite remarkably.

Aava on tarmac with WR car is still unknown factor, because it will be his first rally on tarmac with WR car. With front wheel drive car he was actually quite good. Last year he was second in JWRC in Germany 49.5 s behind Prokop (Aava was actually 12th in general classification). And prokop was with Citroen while Aava was with Suzuki which is not that fast car on tarmac. He was even faster that Prokop in France.. until he retired.

[grugsticles]

Interestingly enough, Subaru had an engireer with a speed radar after a junction at stage 20. Above him there was some bloke who managed to look at the recorded speeds, Rautenbacher had the best speed of 98kph, Loeb 96kph, Mikko, 94kph and Gardemeister were something like 88-89kph. ;)
Possibly a bravery thing?

Everyone, even you and I, could possibly be the same speed through a given set of slower corners but its the faster corners where bravery has a major impact leading to better stage times.
Im assuming that the Rautenbach's of the world arnt quite as brave as the Special Agent 007's like Loab (sorry, been watching Bond movies:P).

[White Sauron]

Possibly a bravery thing?



Well, I read some interview on autosport.com (even though an F1 driver was quated, it's still the same in rallying I suppose), and one championship leader said smth like this: "Slow drivers are driving on either 120% or 80% of the winning pace, while top drivers are constantly on edge, going at 95, lim->100%, and that's what makes you the best".
And you can clearly see: Rautenbach is either damn slow, or too fast in places, which leads to crashes. At the same time you can rearly see Loeb or Hirvonen making strange crazy drives like Galli or Latvala perform, and see: who's leading the championship?

[coldrive]

You guys are close to two of the simple truths of rallying.

1 The best drivers always drive the fast corners fast and the slow corners slow.

2 The best rally driver in the world is the one who makes the fewest mistakes = Seb.

[bluuford]

Possibly a bravery thing?

Everyone, even you and I, could possibly be the same speed through a given set of slower corners but its the faster corners where bravery has a major impact leading to better stage times.
Im assuming that the Rautenbach's of the world arnt quite as brave as the Special Agent 007's like Loab (sorry, been watching Bond movies:P).

You know what is Rautenbachs secret? He enters to the junction very slow.. losing quite a lot.. but then he can accelerate faster (because he could set the car to the right direction very easily) and then he is faster after the junction.. but in summary he still loses some time (because he was so slow before the junction ):-)

[SubaruNorway]

PG Andersson not wearing his HANS very good here, see how it comes loose from the seatbelt.

http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=310&featureid=638&desc=Finland%202008:%20PG%20crashes%20on%20stage%2 016

[Mirek]

Nice photos from DoN:
http://www.rallyphotos.cz/photos/nesterallyfinland2008/

[Daniel]

Beautiful photos.....

[DonJippo]

I've uploaded a few photos from Finland if anyone fancies a look ..

http://www.rally-shots.com

Great pics as always :up:

[jbanbury]

Great pics as always :up:

Thanks :)

[MTA]

My pics: http://www.rallyfoto.se

[Tomi]

I've uploaded a few photos from Finland if anyone fancies a look ..

http://www.rally-shots.com

:up: :up: :up:

[Torsen]

i wish there was more hi res images from finland 2008 that don't have an ugly photography logo (copyright) on it... i'm all for giving credit where credit is due... but i can't believe so many people take such awesome hi res images then taint them :-(

[Juha]

Not everyone has the space to put so much hi res stuff online. ;)

[Torsen]

Not everyone has the space to put so much hi res stuff online. ;)

true that... but nevermind... http://www.rallyphotos.cz is awesome!

[bluuford]

PG Andersson not wearing his HANS very good here, see how it comes loose from the seatbelt.

http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=310&featureid=638&desc=Finland%202008:%20PG%20crashes%20on%20stage%2 016

Yes, It is strange.. and he is lucky! you can see, he even breaks his helmet.. that was a strong hit.

[J4MIE]

i wish there was more hi res images from finland 2008 that don't have an ugly photography logo (copyright) on it... i'm all for giving credit where credit is due... but i can't believe so many people take such awesome hi res images then taint them :-(

I'm sure you could buy hi-res versions of any photos you're interested in at a reasonable price :)

[rx-guru]

And today´s jump record belongs to.. oil sheikh Khalid Al Qassimi:


http://ralliradio.yle.fi/system/files/images/Al+Qassimi.preview_0.jpg

A 50m jump in the Leustu stage. Fly Khalid fly.

A lousy 50m jump? Rallycrosser Jussi Kynsilehto (guided by rally guru Martin Holmes by then) from Oulo did about 70m in 1975 at SS Raikuu with a, by nowadays standards, tame Ford Escort RS1600 BDA. But afterwards it was all but a RS1600 BDA… LOL

[c4]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R3F88-pm6vI/AAAAAAAAAb0/g4uXtU4WEB0/Image00014.jpg

A great and famous publicity shot, car looked a bit different after landing though.

[rx-guru]

Jussi told me the story about 30 years ago, but one can find it here also:

http://juwra.com/rally_snippets.html

The car after the flight:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R5RcDupm8NI/AAAAAAAAAxE/epGLxgn4jy4/Kynsilehto,+Jussi+03.jpg

One of my pics of Jussi as a Rallycrosser in 1978:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/7/7e/JussiKynsilehtoMelk1978.jpg

Jussi (or Juhani) nowadays, the one on the right of course:

http://photos5.flickr.com/4665883_f75b701501.jpg

[c4]

Jussi told me the story about 30 years ago, but one can find it here also:

http://juwra.com/rally_snippets.html

The car after the flight:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R5RcDupm8NI/AAAAAAAAAxE/epGLxgn4jy4/Kynsilehto,+Jussi+03.jpg

Jussi (or Juhani) nowadays, the one on the right of course:

http://photos5.flickr.com/4665883_f75b701501.jpg

Fascinating stuff as ever Mr guru

[rx-guru]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R3F88-pm6vI/AAAAAAAAAb0/g4uXtU4WEB0/Image00014.jpg

A great and famous publicity shot, car looked a bit different after landing though.

As that pic makes sometimes problems:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R3F88-pm6vI/AAAAAAAAAb0/g4uXtU4WEB0/Image00014.jpg

[White Sauron]

By the way, did anyone realize that Loeb will probably break another long-standing record now - for the quantity of wins per season. Now he has 6 to his name. +3 asphalt events and maybe 2 (or even all 3) possible wins on gravel, so...

[tmx]

i hate to admit but after he won finland, i feel loeb is so strong now, i think he might win all events left, maybe beside great britain. unless ford employ tactics or he gets some bad luck. the remaining rally you don't gain much advantage by sweaping, especially during these months the road could be damp or wet. it got to be some kind of miracle for mikko to take driver champion this year.

[jonkka]

http://juwra.com/rally_snippets.html

Heh, I had forgotten about that section already... :eek:

[Raini]

i hate to admit but after he won finland, i feel loeb is so strong now, i think he might win all events left, maybe beside great britain. unless ford employ tactics or he gets some bad luck. the remaining rally you don't gain much advantage by sweaping, especially during these months the road could be damp or wet. it got to be some kind of miracle for mikko to take driver champion this year.

I think you are completely right. Loeb is very strong on tarmac and only bad luck could take his win.

[jonkka]

Loeb is very strong on tarmac and only bad luck could take his win.

Yet, that's bound to happen sooner or later. When and to what effect, we'll know only when it happens. Admittedly, Seb's championship hopes seem very strong but there's always the fat lady singing...

[rx-guru]

As that pic makes sometimes problems:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R3F88-pm6vI/AAAAAAAAAb0/g4uXtU4WEB0/Image00014.jpg

These pics really make some probs to find.

One should try here (see pics 36, 37, 38):

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/R5RcDupm8NI/AAAAAAAAAxE/epGLxgn4jy4/Kynsilehto,%2BJussi%2B03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bmA9UE4XIYpNywoOZqdvzA&h=312&w=480&sz=18&hl=de&start=4&um=1&tbnid=2zppS9yXXY4yeM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Jussi%2BKynsilehto%2522%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DN

[rx-guru]

Heh, I had forgotten about that section already... :eek:

Nice snippet, jonkka! Jussi told me the story quite similar. Did you know that Jussi, beside driving all different kind of factory backed Imps and some other cars in RX was a factory driver for Polski Fiat with a Fiat 125p for a while?

[rx-guru]

Jussi Kynsilehto and his Polski Fiat 125p for RX in 1977 at Maasmechelen/Belgium. © rx-guru

[rx-guru]

Same 1977 meeting: Jussi (left), Norwegian Per Engseth and Austrian Herbert Grünsteidl (right). © rx-guru

So lads and lassies, if there will ever be discussions about "the true Flying Finn" – it is the one to the left of this pic. ;)

[jonkka]

Nice pics, rx-g. You knew Jussi personally at the time?

[rx-guru]

Nice pics, rx-g. You knew Jussi personally at the time?

Yep jonkka, I met Jussi quite often in RX events during the second half of the 1970s. He and the late Martti Kangas (who later used the alias "Jorma Kovanen" when driving a MG Metro 6R4 BiTurbo for RX and was shot by his drunken brother-in-law in 1994) were the first two Finns to show up regularely in pan-European RX events.

[Tomi]

"Jorma Kovanen"

LOL, funny

[Daniel]

i wish there was more hi res images from finland 2008 that don't have an ugly photography logo (copyright) on it... i'm all for giving credit where credit is due... but i can't believe so many people take such awesome hi res images then taint them :-(

Problem is if you don't "taint" them then others will steal them and pretend that it's their work. It's happened to me.....

[rx-guru]

LOL, funny

As one who understands just about 100 Finnish words: Does Jorma Kovanen mean something funny?

[Miika]

Jorma= a usual Finnish nickname for your.. dick. kova= 'hard'

[jonkka]

As one who understands just about 100 Finnish words: Does Jorma Kovanen mean something funny?

It can mean. "Jorma" is often used nick-name for male organ and "Kovanen" means hard (or literally little hard but anyway). Note that Jorma Kovanen is perfectly legal name anyway, there are seven with that name in Finnish phone directory at the moment.

[Helstar]

Not everyone has the space to put so much hi res stuff online. ;)
People could do a big zip file and put on rapidshare.com or megaupload.com ... you have to download them all without a preview though, with a 56k it can be a pain (I have 7MB ADSL so no problem :p !).

i hate to admit but after he won finland, i feel loeb is so strong now, i think he might win all events left, maybe beside great britain. unless ford employ tactics or he gets some bad luck. the remaining rally you don't gain much advantage by sweaping, especially during these months the road could be damp or wet. it got to be some kind of miracle for mikko to take driver champion this year.
Is that a surprise ? The surprise was having Mikko ahead 3 points in championship before Finland...