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Powered by Cosworth
26th July 2008, 14:38
This had me wondering, will drivers be allowed, and will they start, driving very hard outlaps on the grid and then 'push the button' when the lights are out (or a few seconds after when they are up to a little bit of speed).

20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.

Also, is there anything in the rules about being able to charge the batteries in the pits before the start of the race?

Bagwan
26th July 2008, 16:03
[quote="Powered by Cosworth"]
20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.[quote]

This sounds like an eerily similar argument to the idea that they should not run without tire warmers .

We also have them exploding , burning , and shocking crew .

Anyone else think they might toss the whole idea in the bin soon ?

gloomyDAY
26th July 2008, 17:41
20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.


This sounds like an eerily similar argument to the idea that they should not run without tire warmers .

We also have them exploding , burning , and shocking crew .

Anyone else think they might toss the whole idea in the bin soon ?I hope so. I like Dave Brockman's alternative:

Wind Assisted Natural Kinetic Energy Recovery System

Easy Drifter
26th July 2008, 18:03
I agree it should be tossed, at least for the immediate future.
Besides then it would fit right in with the rest of Mad Max's way to cut costs. :disturb: :bomb:

Sleeper
27th July 2008, 12:22
This had me wondering, will drivers be allowed, and will they start, driving very hard outlaps on the grid and then 'push the button' when the lights are out (or a few seconds after when they are up to a little bit of speed).

20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.

Also, is there anything in the rules about being able to charge the batteries in the pits before the start of the race?
Cant see it happening, the same fuel rules will apply for next year so who is going to want to get the jump on their competitors at the start knowing they are going to loose those positions at the first stops because they have to pit in a few laps earlier than those that didnt drive a hard out lap.

Besides, we allready get big differences in the acceleration of some carsover others anyway, I dont think there would be that big a difference (HP normally influences top speed rather than acceleration, and I havnt heard of much of a torque gain from KERS).

KERS will be kept, F1 needs it and all the manufacturers are heavily in favour of it. They see it as a way to advance technology that will become incresingly more common on road cars over the next decade or so.

cosmicpanda
27th July 2008, 13:16
I don't think that binning KERS right now would cut costs very much as so much has already been spent on it.

Shouldn't it be reasonably simple to disable the energy collection system on the outlaps before the grand prix starts?

wedge
27th July 2008, 14:30
This had me wondering, will drivers be allowed, and will they start, driving very hard outlaps on the grid and then 'push the button' when the lights are out (or a few seconds after when they are up to a little bit of speed).

20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.

Also, is there anything in the rules about being able to charge the batteries in the pits before the start of the race?

Depends how much energy the outlaps produce.

The outlaps/SC period is dangerous enough as it is because not just the braking and acceleration but the weaving to generate tyre temperature and pressure.

Azumanga Davo
27th July 2008, 15:35
So who pays for KERS? Teams or engine builders? If teams, aren't the poor b^&*ards at the back going to have fun with this 'cost controlled' sport?

markabilly
27th July 2008, 16:10
Somehow, I think the electircal problem in an accident could be worse than dealing with fire issues....

jso1985
28th July 2008, 00:41
KERS will be kept, F1 needs it and all the manufacturers are heavily in favour of it. They see it as a way to advance technology that will become incresingly more common on road cars over the next decade or so.

I fail to see any use of KERS in road cars

grantb4
28th July 2008, 00:52
I fail to see any use of KERS in road cars

Certainly energy recover from braking (E.g. any hybrid) is a type of KERS.

Whyzars
28th July 2008, 03:16
KERS will be kept, F1 needs it and all the manufacturers are heavily in favour of it. They see it as a way to advance technology that will become incresingly more common on road cars over the next decade or so.

I'm sure you're right that KERS will be kept but if there is an environmental component to this, as opposed to just mental, why wouldn't the focus be on improving the efficiency of the internal combustion engines that make that oh so sweet sound?

I'm thinking that rather than seeing KERS as a racing tool, the KERS energy could be utilised to power the car's exclusively during safety car periods as an example.

:crazy:

Miatanut
28th July 2008, 04:02
I fail to see any use of KERS in road cars

Race Car Engineering has run a couple good articles on this in the last year. They said that with a Prius type system, only about 30% of the energy turns back into forward motion. You have to convert it from kinetic energy to electrical energy to chemical energy to electrical energy to kinetic energy. Why not just store it as kinetic energy? With the car parked overnight in a garage, with KERS it would be pretty well gone the next morning, but you lose very little of it waiting at a light for a minute, or until the stop-and-go traffic is going again, which is the main purpose of a hybrid type system.

Why would a road car NOT use KERS?

It's been a long time since 'Racing improves the breed' was really true. I am very happy to see it back.

Knock-on
28th July 2008, 18:55
The big problem is what KERS will be used for.

There seems to be a deliberate effort from the FIA to make it sufficiently vague to manipulate it's use.

Mark my words, if McLaren start doing well with theirs, then Max will find a clause that penalises them :laugh:

Liked this quote from DC


"Part of my role for next year will be to assist with the development of Red Bull's KERS system," he said. "I'll be wearing a full rubber body suit to make sure that I'm safe... Formula 1 driving suits will become like fireproof condoms!"

Sleeper
28th July 2008, 19:27
I'm sure you're right that KERS will be kept but if there is an environmental component to this, as opposed to just mental, why wouldn't the focus be on improving the efficiency of the internal combustion engines that make that oh so sweet sound?

I'm thinking that rather than seeing KERS as a racing tool, the KERS energy could be utilised to power the car's exclusively during safety car periods as an example.

:crazy:
The teams arent happy about the engine freeze and see it as detrimental to improving efficiency, I know they consider the current V8's to be outdated because its based on designs drawn up in 05 (from quotes Mike Gascoine made in Autosport last week). With the system itself, I think the main line of development will be along how efficiently and fast they can fill up there storage defices, power and how long it lasts is already going to be controled by the FIA (80hp for about 6.7 seconds for everyone next year, possibly doubling for the following year). But if a team can get back that energy quicker, then it could be a real boost to a driver when overtaking/defending. Its also the kind of development that will filter back directly into raod cars, maybe even turning these hybrid cars into something useul, instead of a great white elephant.

As for who foots the bill, it'll be the teams. Force India are developing their own system, and fully prepared to do so because they see it as a necessaty (again taken from MG quotes last week). Remeber, it might be legal as of Australia next year, but that doesnt mean the teams have to run it immediatly, apparently some are going to leave the introduction several races.

Whyzars
29th July 2008, 02:12
Liked this quote from DC ""...Formula 1 driving suits will become like fireproof condoms!"

Gotta love DC. Condom's have always been promoted as a safety item and this is just one more use I guess. :)

It'll be interesting to see how these KERS electrical circuits respond to being hit with a cold, moist blast from a fire extinguisher and whether they will be a threat to the safety of track personnel? How will track marshalls be able to decide on the spur of the moment whether a car is safe? Look at the problems methanol fuels cause when there are no visual clues for safety compromises.

The prospect of drivers being abandoned by the side of the track until suitably qualified, and attired, personnel can be found to extract them could prove to be the undoing of KERS as a non-standardised item.

Whyzars
29th July 2008, 02:54
The teams arent happy about the engine freeze and see it as detrimental to improving efficiency, I know they consider the current V8's to be outdated because its based on designs drawn up in 05 (from quotes Mike Gascoine made in Autosport last week).

Precisely why the thinking smacks of pandering to lobbyists and vehicle marketers. If the objective was to reduce fuel consumption then attack that angle but don't mandate that any new horsepower must be green power. What they are effectively doing is ensuring that teams don't improve the internal combustion process which is where the biggest reductions in fuel use are to be had.

Maybe its time for F1 to go with a 5 cylinder engine, which still sounds reasonable, and be done with it. :p



With the system itself, I think the main line of development will be along how efficiently and fast they can fill up there storage defices, power and how long it lasts is already going to be controled by the FIA (80hp for about 6.7 seconds for everyone next year, possibly doubling for the following year). But if a team can get back that energy quicker, then it could be a real boost to a driver when overtaking/defending. Its also the kind of development that will filter back directly into raod cars, maybe even turning these hybrid cars into something useul, instead of a great white elephant.


RANT/ Hybrids will always be white elephants (IMO) because I don't think the manufacturers are being fair dinkum. Why would a vehicle that is supposed to save the planet have the latest stereo's and all the other accroutements that price it out of reach of most people? I will consider that a hybrid car is built with the environment in mind when its cheap and you can easily remove the back seats and other heavy items when you aren't using them. /ENDRANT
:)



As for who foots the bill, it'll be the teams. Force India are developing their own system, and fully prepared to do so because they see it as a necessaty (again taken from MG quotes last week). Remeber, it might be legal as of Australia next year, but that doesnt mean the teams have to run it immediatly, apparently some are going to leave the introduction several races.

My guess is that they will wait to see whether the teams that they are competing against force them to use it. I don't think Ferrari will install their KERS because Force India are successfully harnessing the extra horses but they might if BMW is seeing a tangible boost on a particular track.

If KERS becomes a must have from a competitive standpoint then it will become the new normal but if a non-KERS car can defend against a KERS equipped vehicle then the KERS devices will remain on the garage floor.

Sleeper
29th July 2008, 20:53
^It'l be the same deal as with J-Dampers and Seamless Shift Gearboxes, there will be a small, tangible improvment and eventually all teams will have them.

JSH
29th July 2008, 21:11
This had me wondering, will drivers be allowed, and will they start, driving very hard outlaps on the grid and then 'push the button' when the lights are out (or a few seconds after when they are up to a little bit of speed).

20 cars together with some accelerating suddenly and some potentially not sounds dangrous.

Also, is there anything in the rules about being able to charge the batteries in the pits before the start of the race?

I think the limiting factor of how hard each car gets off the line is not so much power available, but ability to transfer torque to the track surface through the tyres.

So having KERS available at race start may not be much benefit until the cars are midway through the gears.