GM to Reduce NASCAR Funding

[Lemmy-Boy]

Due to the economic downturn in the USA and slow auto sales, GM motorsports will be cutting sponsorship and funding within the coming years. NASCAR is most at risk because GM spends so heavily on the stock car racing organization's three leagues. GM is bleeding $1 billions dollars a month in liquidity thanks to the current economic environment.


Source: http://www.forbes.com/reuters/feeds/reuters/2008/07/15/2008-07-15T192311Z_01_N15305556_RTRIDST_0_GM-MOTORSPORTS.html

[jslone]

Surprised it hasnt happened sooner,especially with Ford losing more then GM.

[colinspooky]

well, all you Americans, go buy some more cars. Problem solved.

And all those little bits of merchandising like keyrings (fobs) and jackets, and stuff......

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

Not good. Can Ford and GM dig themselves out of the holes they are in?. or is it already to late?.

[Saabaru]

Not good. Can Ford and GM dig themselves out of the holes they are in?. or is it already to late?.
The biggest problems for Ford and GM are the unions. The unions are putting there own people out of work by not letting the companies reduce wages and forcing the price of their products slightly higher than the competition. Not that I don't think everyone deserves to make $100,000 a year at work, but when you go into a recession and arn't selling your products costs have to come down somewhere and its ether wages or layoffs. This combined with Americans not being loyal to homemade products.

[Jonesi]

The biggest problems for Ford and GM are the unions. The unions are putting there own people out of work by not letting the companies reduce wages and forcing the price of their products slightly higher than the competition. Not that I don't think everyone deserves to make $100,000 a year at work, but when you go into a recession and arn't selling your products costs have to come down somewhere and its ether wages or layoffs. This combined with Americans not being loyal to homemade products.

Unions aren't anywhere near the top of the list of problems. It's management, poor quality, and bad product. Why should Americans be loyal to crappy products from insensitive companies? GM has lost 1% market share for the last 40 years. They don't listen, they don't fix their problems.

[Sparky1329]

Unions aren't anywhere near the top of the list of problems. It's management, poor quality, and bad product. Why should Americans be loyal to crappy products from insensitive companies? GM has lost 1% market share for the last 40 years. They don't listen, they don't fix their problems.

Exactly. The workforce is not responsible for the bad decisions management makes. They're victims of them.

[JasonD]

I guess it is managements fault that GM does pay more in union member benefits than they do in steel.

[Sparky1329]

The biggest problems for Ford and GM are the unions. The unions are putting there own people out of work by not letting the companies reduce wages and forcing the price of their products slightly higher than the competition. Not that I don't think everyone deserves to make $100,000 a year at work, but when you go into a recession and arn't selling your products costs have to come down somewhere and its ether wages or layoffs. This combined with Americans not being loyal to homemade products.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp143

Read and learn.

[Sparky1329]

I guess it is managements fault that GM does pay more in union member benefits than they do in steel.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_15/b3778012.htm

Read and learn.

[jslone]

As a pro union guy,I am not going to say much more on this.its not the unions fault here kids,part of it maybe,the whole blame like some here have suggested,PLEASE PROVE IT.

[Chaparral66]

Unions aren't anywhere near the top of the list of problems. It's management, poor quality, and bad product. Why should Americans be loyal to crappy products from insensitive companies? GM has lost 1% market share for the last 40 years. They don't listen, they don't fix their problems.

This is as true as it gets. As was detailed in that BusinessWeek article linked above, top executives still find a way to make a killing personally even though their company is sagging in the marketplace, and still ask the rank & file to make concessions on things like health care, something unthinkable to an executive who gets paid more than enough to afford health insurance on his own. Add to all that, the fact that the car companies are only now waking up to the need to conserve energy in cars when Japan and Europe were already planning for this decades ago. Make no mistake this country NEEDS a healthy domestic auto industry. But what is happening in Detroit right now is the consequence of constantly looking for short term profits instead of long term health and product stability. When the roof caves in as it always does, Detroit looks for scapegoats instead of dealing with the real issues of their products and long term product planning. The workers aren't to blame, the suits are.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Unions aren't anywhere near the top of the list of problems. It's management, poor quality, and bad product. Why should Americans be loyal to crappy products from insensitive companies? GM has lost 1% market share for the last 40 years. They don't listen, they don't fix their problems.


For the past couple of years GM, Ford & Chrysler have been producing cars with equal quality (or greater) quality than their foreign counterparts. Look at the J&D Power Quality ratings for 2008 (http://blogs.motortrend.com/6255015/car-news/better-cars-for-everyone-jd-power-initial-quality-results/index.html), the American brands have been placing higher than foreign cars in certain categories. I'm not saying all domestic cars are better quality than foreign cars, but the Yanks have come a long way since the dreadful 1980's & 90's.

The problem lies with consumer perception of American Automobiles. Most consumers feel that domestic cars are a step below foreign cars due to crap GM, Ford & Chrysler produced during the 80's & 90's. This is a psychological hurdle that domestic automakers will have to overcome in the foreseeable future.

[Saabaru]

Allot of pro union guys in here I see. Chevrolet doesn’t have any problem with quality. I have driven GM products well over 200k miles and did nothing out of regular maintenance. I have a friend who has a Saturn with 270k miles on it right now and it’s still going strong, minus a new water pump. Wile it wasn’t a GM product I know a girl who had a Jeep with 370k miles on it and all she ever had to deal with was one transmission went bad and I think it went bad around 240k miles. The only problem GM has with reliability is Americans mindset that Japanese cars are better, and gas prices are killing their SUV and truck market. One market they have managed to maintain over the years because until lately Japanese manufactures haven’t expanded into it. As for the unions; I don’t need to “read and learn” any self promoting garbage those crooks putout. They are out for no one but themselves. I work for a Rail Road, I know all about those thieves. They take money out of my paycheck every month and I have never seen any action from them. The workers at the Nissan plant in Canton Ms, have all the benefits of GM workers. A union decided they where going move in and take over the plant and the employees (not Nissan) literally had to fight them off. They wasn’t going to do anything but take their monthly dues form peoples pay checks. Ford had a plant here building engines, when they had a reduction in sales in the 70’s Ford wanted to cut wages to keep the plant going. Instead the union told the employees not to accept any of their offers because Ford couldn’t touch their benefits or their paychecks. So that’s what happened and a year later Ford was gone and the union went with them and left 1500 people out of work.

True, American’s big companies do have a fat management problem but that’s only part of the problem.

[jslone]

Let me ask you all this then as well,was it the unions the ones who opened up the market to have all these car companies shop here?

[Sparky1329]

Allot of pro union guys in here I see. Chevrolet doesn’t have any problem with quality. I have driven GM products well over 200k miles and did nothing out of regular maintenance. I have a friend who has a Saturn with 270k miles on it right now and it’s still going strong, minus a new water pump. Wile it wasn’t a GM product I know a girl who had a Jeep with 370k miles on it and all she ever had to deal with was one transmission went bad and I think it went bad around 240k miles. The only problem GM has with reliability is Americans mindset that Japanese cars are better, and gas prices are killing their SUV and truck market. One market they have managed to maintain over the years because until lately Japanese manufactures haven’t expanded into it. As for the unions; I don’t need to “read and learn” any self promoting garbage those crooks putout. They are out for no one but themselves. I work for a Rail Road, I know all about those thieves. They take money out of my paycheck every month and I have never seen any action from them. The workers at the Nissan plant in Canton Ms, have all the benefits of GM workers. A union decided they where going move in and take over the plant and the employees (not Nissan) literally had to fight them off. They wasn’t going to do anything but take their monthly dues form peoples pay checks. Ford had a plant here building engines, when they had a reduction in sales in the 70’s Ford wanted to cut wages to keep the plant going. Instead the union told the employees not to accept any of their offers because Ford couldn’t touch their benefits or their paychecks. So that’s what happened and a year later Ford was gone and the union went with them and left 1500 people out of work.

True, American’s big companies do have a fat management problem but that’s only part of the problem.

The Nissan shop as well as many other non-union shops have the same benefits as unions so unions can't take a stronghold. My uncle was a union organizer in the early days of collective bargaining. Sweat shops would be a common thing if it weren't for unions. It's not rocket science.

[Chaparral66]

There's plenty of blame to go around, I'm just saying don't lay it all at the foot of the unions or workers who are members for not taking concessions when clearly the executives in managament aren't doing so, continuing to line their pockets in good times and bad. You think the Union is just looking out for itself? What do you think the top managers, CEOs, Preisedents, VPs, and Chairmen are doing?

I would agree that domestic autos are better, and I consider Ford the best of all of The Big Three. If you and some people you know are getting that long a life out out of your domestic cars, more power to you. But that is the exception and not the rule, though the fact that is even happening now much more than it was just a few years ago is definitely an very encouraging sign. I hope it continues to happen. I don't want GM or Chrysler to drop any more divisions, and I want Ford to stay just as it is.

As I said, we NEED a healthy and robust domestic auto industry. But if a perception of poor American auto quality from the 70's, 80's, and 90's persists, who's fault is that? Not the foriegn makes. Quality isn't just being able to keep a car together without parts flying off or a tranny going bust within 3 months of purchase (as happened to my old boss' Cadillac back in the 80's). Quality in an automobile today for an ever more sophisticated customer means the experience of driving, how well all the luxury controls work, and the fun aspect of driving, something that BMW, Audi, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz needs no lectures from us about. I think the domestics are finally starting to "get it" but they were late in coming to that table. Like an old Nissan commercial said, and this speaks for most of the foriegn makes, "We weren't born yesterday." The foriegn makes, right now, do a better job of being ready for quick shifts on the tastes of the auto customer; Detroit put a lot into profitable SUVs and small trucks, not as much into continual fuel efficient auto design and now that's biting them in the A$$.

If the suits in Detroit want concessions to make their price points more competitive with Nissan and Toyota, and now Kia and Hyundai, then managment needs to be ready to do the same. Sacrifice needs to be a total team effort. If Detroit can do that, and keep doing it, recovery and even true viability can return to American makes. The country is counting on it.

[JasonD]

Agreed that its not ONLY the unions fault, when execs make gobs of money and the poor shlep gets walked out the door it sucks.

I think there are many factors that have led to the decline of GM/Ford.

I heard a quote on the radio that there is a 46% chance GM will be done in 5 years unless drastic changes are made. I'll se if I can dig up the article.

[tstran17_88]

GM and Ford's biggest down fall is their lack of flexibility to stop over producing the SUV’S and pick-ups, and switch to the smaller high gas mileage vehicles. Unlike Ford & GM, Toyota only starting losing money recently when the economy started tanking. The economy is what is killing Ford & GM now. Toyota is going to be fine.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

Its wierd how Ford have a bad rep in the states for being unreliable. I read a little while ago that in the states Ford came 4th or 5th in a pole asking about reliablity. Where as here in the UK Ford came top. Wierd?. Maybe Ford US need to look at Ford Europes line of cars. although the line of cars arent that much different these days are they?.

[harvick#1]

Sweat shops would be a common thing if it weren't for unions. It's not rocket science.

I work in a sweat shop and I am union :p : nothing better then sweating off 2 gallons a day in the heat :D

[Sparky1329]

I work in a sweat shop and I am union :p : nothing better then sweating off 2 gallons a day in the heat :D

You're also a smartazz kid. :D

[gshevlin]

...are now suffering from the cumulative impact of their failure to focus on smaller car and powerplant engineering for the domestic US market, and their past failures with build quality and reliability.
I sat and watched the same process unfold in the UK in the 1970's and 1980's with the British volume car industry. After nearly 20 years of producing mediocre, over-priced vehicles, the industry got its act together in the 1980's. However, despite demonstrating much better reliability, the perception that British cars were unreliable was impossible to overcome in time to prevent loss of market share, which eventually drove the British manufacturers out of business or into the arms of foreign companies.
Ford, GM and Chrysler may not be able to survive in the medium-term. The debates about the roles of unions are really a sideshow, much like the debates about the roles of unions in the demise of the UK car companies. The bottom line was that in the UK, the companies produced over-priced sub-standard vehicles lacking in imagination, and that, more than any day-to-day union issues, was the major contributor to their demise.
The biggest mistake made here was when the Carter administration exempted light trucks from car fuel efficiency standards, which gave the auto manufacturers the ability to continue with their use of existing drivetrains and building methods. SUVs and trucks were a cash cow until fuel prices eliminated those models as major revenue sources. This is analagous to the airline business model, which for many years relied on business people paying high dollars for walk-up fares. Once the business folks realized that they could use Orbitz etc. just like anybody else, that business model became a quaint relic. Ditto the current Big Three business model for the US, which was based on older vehicle and drivetrain packages. They need to rapidly create smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles (which some of them could bring in from elsewhere in the world). It's adapt rapidly or die time.

[RaceFanStan]

If ANY of the (American) Big 3 (GM, Ford or Chrysler) reduce their participation in NASCAR ...
Toyota will eagerly pump in plenty of money & factory support to the abandoned teams :!: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/smilies/bomb.gif

I understand that the sales by the (American) Big 3 are down ...
but now would be a bad time for them to implement cut-backs in NASCAR ...
IF ANY of the Big 3 fumble the ball, Toyota WILL pick it up & score big :!: http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/eek.gif

(Toyota now has a strong hold in NASCAR, can Honda be far behind ?) :eek:

[call_me_andrew]

Its wierd how Ford have a bad rep in the states for being unreliable. I read a little while ago that in the states Ford came 4th or 5th in a pole asking about reliablity. Where as here in the UK Ford came top. Wierd?. Maybe Ford US need to look at Ford Europes line of cars. although the line of cars arent that much different these days are they?.

Well the thing to remember is that it was a poll that measured opinion. J. D. Power and Associates ranks Ford's build quality very highly. They base their information on the number of times a vehicle is serviced in a given number of miles. They base their results on fact rather than opinion. Reputation is more of the problem than anything else.

20-30 years ago, Americans usually considered imported cars to be of lower quality. American brands knew this, so they decided to get lazy. They cut back on quality because they knew people would buy their cars because the name plate had good reputation. Now the tide has turned and they're playing catch-up. Ford has recently announced it's going to start selling some of it's European cars in the U.S., mostly as a reaction to rising fuel prices.

[Jonesi]

If ANY of the (American) Big 3 (GM, Ford or Chrysler) reduce their participation in NASCAR ...
Toyota will eagerly pump in plenty of money & factory support to the abandoned teams :!: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/smilies/bomb.gif

I understand that the sales by the (American) Big 3 are down ...
but now would be a bad time for them to implement cut-backs in NASCAR ...
IF ANY of the Big 3 fumble the ball, Toyota WILL pick it up & score big :!: http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/eek.gif

(Toyota now has a strong hold in NASCAR, can Honda be far behind ?) :eek:

Not only will Toyota up their participation, but Honda will probably jump in too.

[Sparky1329]

Not only will Toyota up their participation, but Honda will probably jump in too.

I agree with you both. They play to win.

[harvick#1]

You're also a smartazz kid. :D

:D

I can, I'm union :p :

[Sparky1329]

:D

I can, I'm union :p :

You got it! :up:

[ms0362]

To much marketing towards low mileage vehicles and not enough time to re-tool. Thanks to our fine congress (Pelosa and Reid) gas prices are through the roof. No one's touching trucks and SUV's. Ford and GM have to many eggs in that basket.

Look for some tight times with race teams. I think we reached our peak about to years ago, now it's time to trend down. Less spectators, less teams, less development dollars, less cars in the field and probably less races.

[SoCalPVguy]

You all need to read Autoextremist... The end of big bucks USA auto manufacturer support is ending starting now...

Reality is about to hit GM Racing's NASCAR programs - hard.

By Peter M. De Lorenzo

Detroit. Yesterday, GM CEO Rick Wagoner outlined a series of cost-cutting measures, including laying off salaried workers, eliminating health care benefits for GM retirees over 65 years old, making even more drastic reductions in truck production, suspending its stock dividend, suspending all executive bonuses, cutting advertising, marketing and promotional programs (including racing), and borrowing at least $2 billion, all in the next eighteen months. These moves are designed to basically save the company from bankruptcy and raise its cash position by $15 billion through the end of 2009. And everything - and I mean everything - is on the table when it comes to these cost reductions, including all of GM's motorsports programs. "There are some elements of motorsports that are very effective means of promotion and communication with certain customer segments. The ones that are less are the ones that will be ... scaled back," GM North America President Troy Clarke added at the news conference. Ouch.

First of all, yesterday's news conference was the first time in the history of the corporation that GM upper management openly addressed or commented upon GM's racing programs in front of the media. In the past, GM's Director of Racing would make statements, or a divisional general manager might make a statement, but only in the context of being at a race weekend or when it was deemed appropriate (signing or re-signing drivers or teams, etc.). Going back long before this, some of you might remember that GM adhered to the bogus "ban" from building and promoting high-performance production cars and racing that the old AMA tried to enforce on the domestic manufacturers in the late 50s and early 60s. While Ford blew the lid off that wrong-headed edict with their "Total Performance" marketing push in the 60s, GM spent most of that decade refusing to admit that they were affiliated with legends like Smokey Yunick, Junior Johnson, Roger Penske, Jim Hall, etc., etc., while providing those stars with "back door" support. (For the record, I preferred the Ford way of going racing, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.)

In mentioning all of this, I'm trying to frame the significance of this event for our readers out there. Think about the fact that GM has never discussed their racing programs on the highest corporate level, in public, ever. Then think about the fact that the first time they do discuss it, it's to talk about the cuts that are on the table. That is a big deal, folks.

As I have been warning for the last two years now, the creeping reality of the domestic manufacturers' freefalling fortunes in the U.S. market was bound to strike at the heart of the Detroit Three's racing programs - especially their NASCAR involvement. And now reality has finally come home to roost at GM racing, and the fallout is not going to be pretty. NASCAR's adoption of the "CoT" was a disastrous decision on their part, because it exposed them to the burgeoning faction within these car companies that refuses to buy into the NASCAR hype and instead correctly point out that all brand recognition has been expunged from NASCAR's Sprint Cup equation by the generic blobs masquerading as "Impalas," "Fusions," "Chargers" and "Camrys," and that the return on investment for the company's involvement is deteriorating at a rapid rate.

So, what does this mean for GM Racing going forward? Here are the five key actions on the table right now at GM:

1. Immediate cuts to NASCAR promotional programs. Ever go to a NASCAR weekend and notice the Chevrolet billboards around the track, or attend Chevy-sponsored events surrounding a race weekend, or go to the "Chevy Rock and Roll 400," or see co-branded promotions in grocery stores or auto parts stores featuring Chevy NASCAR drivers? GM spends millions of dollars on these programs every year, and these are the deals that will come under immediate scrutiny. Some track contracts have already been cancelled, and other contracts with individual tracks expiring at the end of this year will not be renewed. Ongoing contracts will come under heavy fire. And a lot of the small promotions that add up to a significant chunk of change will fall by the wayside. It doesn't sound like much, but believe me, to the tracks involved this will have a huge impact.

2. Immediate cuts to NASCAR-themed advertising spending. The ubiquitous Chevrolet spots on NASCAR broadcasts will be cut by 20 percent right off the top. This is probably the most painless cut GM can do, unless you're on the receiving end of it as a TV network media honcho, or at a media company that has the responsibility of placing that ad, that is.

3. All team and driver contracts will be put on the table for immediate review. That deal that Tony Stewart just signed to receive half of Haas-CNC Racing, so it can become Stewart-Haas Racing in 2009? There was GM Racing money involved in that deal, or it wouldn't have happened. But by participating in that deal, GM Racing also has set the table for its entire technical partnership fee structure with its NASCAR teams to be reviewed, given the company-wide mandate to take 20 percent out of its marketing/promotion/advertising budgets. The deal with GM Racing is this: The technical aspect of GM Racing reports up through engineering and GM Powertrain and has a budget assigned to it. But the actual serious money involved which supports these sponsorship deals and other programs comes out of GM Marketing. Last fall, GM signed Hendrick Motorsports, Richard Childress Racing and DEI, Inc. to contract extensions of varying lengths. The man at GM marketing who made those deals happen - Brent Dewar - a known NASCAR "friend" and cheerleader, has since been shipped off to Europe. Needless to say, there are people within GM marketing and the rest of the corporation who are clearly not happy with some of Dewar's decisions. Now, every single one of those decisions has been put on the table for review and discussion, with GM going back to the teams for "adjustments" to their contracts not out of the question. Look for those "adjustments" to translate into a percentage cutback to the direct payouts to the teams, and don't be be surprised if the low man team on the GM NASCAR totem pole is given its outright release with a cash buyout by the end of this year.

4. GM may stay in NASCAR - at least for now - but to what degree? All of these reductions in GM Racing's involvement in NASCAR begs the question, as in, if GM stays, to what degree will their involvement "cover" NASCAR? Keeping a presence in Craftsman Truck and maintaining a reduced presence in Sprint Cup may be all that's left for GM's NASCAR budget. GM will race where and when they see fit, but look for the Nationwide Series to become the odd man out when it comes to GM Racing's involvement. And if teams are given the choice to cut their programs in response to GM's demands, watch their Nationwide programs drop off the map too.

5. Corvette Racing caught in the crossfire? It appears that a direct result of the additional juice necessary to make the Tony Stewart deal happen is that Corvette Racing may take a big hit. One scenario already on the table is that Corvette's annual appearance at the 24 Hours of Le Mans might be in jeopardy, which would be a complete travesty because that one single race is the raison d'etre for the entire Corvette Racing program. The global image enhancement and benefits to GM, Chevrolet and the Corvette brand because of the success of Corvette Racing at that one race - the most prestigious endurance road racing event in the world - is almost incalculable. But it takes a lot of money to present a front line two-car GT effort at Le Mans, and it is rumored that 1/3 of Corvette Racing's annual budget is consumed at that one race. So that's why the discussion is on the table. It doesn't help that the internal NASCAR cheerleaders within GM (at least the few who are left) regularly dismiss Corvette Racing as an afterthought, but the reality of the situation is that Corvette racing's annual budget is approximately equal to a top one-car effort in NASCAR's Sprint Cup, so the arguments to decimate Corvette Racing fall flat in the Big Picture of things. As we like to say around here, this is a "developing" situation, and the next 60 days will determine Corvette racing's fate for 2009 and beyond.

There's a lot to contemplate in this column by any measure, but one thing is crystal clear: The days of NASCAR dictating to the manufacturers is clearly over. GM upper management has stated publicly that they will reduce the company's motorsports programs by at least20 percent. And since NASCAR-related spending accounts for 90 percent of GM Racing's total annual budget - or between $120 and $140 million - the cuts are going to be deep, highly visible, and they will signal a fundamental change in one Detroit automobile company's historical relationship with NASCAR.

Oh and one more thing, if you think GM is the only Detroit manufacturer contemplating substantial or even radical cuts to their NASCAR programs, think again.

More news will unfold on this subject before the summer is out.

[SoCalPVguy]

more from Autoextrimist...

NASCAR is about to feel Detroit's chill.

By Peter M. De Lorenzo

Detroit. It's no secret that the worst automobile market in 20 years has the Detroit auto companies reeling. It's in the national news and in newspapers across the country, and it's often the lead story on network newscasts and prime time business programming. And, of course, it's prominent on the Internet too. This isn't just a mild "adjustment" to Detroit's fortunes, either; rather, it's a dramatic, fundamental shift in how the business will be played out from here on in. And Detroit finds itself under the gun like never before.

At this very moment key players of the "Detroit Three" are evaluating every facet of their businesses, right down to the last dollar. That means every product program and every promotional/marketing/advertising program - and everything and anything between - is being placed under the microscope and being scrutinized for ways to shrink expenditures. And for the first time in a long time, Detroit's substantial NASCAR budgets are being included in the process.

In the past, Detroit's NASCAR programs usually escaped scrutiny at cost-cutting time, simply because the sport was on an upward trajectory and participation was not only a given, it was never even questioned. Well, the climate has changed dramatically, and all of NASCAR's negatives - declining attendance, declining TV ratings, the dreaded "Car of Tomorrow," which has destroyed brand recognition and differentiation, the never-ending schedule, and the spike in costs due to the influx of Toyota spending - have the powers that be at the Detroit automakers seriously questioning their NASCAR programs.

How will it shake out? The peripheral programs that NASCAR fans never think about - the track sponsorships, the promotional support programs and other components that go into the Detroit car companies' NASCAR programs - will be the first to go. Programs that are coming up for renewal now - mid- to late summer being prime sponsorship program renewal/extension/evaluation season - will be the first to be cut.

Then, the national advertising and high-visibility NASCAR-based promotions that have become so ubiquitous on networks such as SPEED will be cut back.

And finally, the actual contacts with the teams will be closely analyzed for value, and this is where it will get very interesting, because these manufacturers could easily just "cherry pick" one of the three NASCAR series (Sprint Cup, Nationwide & Craftsman) to compete in, rather than continue blanket participation, or, there is a very real possibility that at least one of the Detroit manufacturers will pull out altogether - which I've been predicting for two years now - even if it means NASCAR becoming a one-make series (Toyota).

At the very least, I can assure you that some of NASCAR's sacred cow teams - the ones that heretofore would never be considered to be on the block - will be left by the side of the road by the Detroit manufacturers in the interest of saving money.

Suffice to say that the marketing mavens in Daytona Beach will be in for a shock when these Detroit car companies begin to pull back on their NASCAR spending, because they will be ill-prepared for the depth and breadth of the reductions that are coming.

The days of Detroit's "automatic" involvement in NASCAR are coming swiftly to a close.

And NASCAR is about to feel Detroit's chill.

[Lee Roy]

DeLorenzo's a loon that hates NASCAR and has been singing that same song for years now. He must be ecstatic that after all this time something is finally happening. I imagine he'll be devastated when he see's it doesn't hurt NASCAR all that much and it continues to survive.

[SoCalPVguy]

DeLorenzo's a loon that hates NASCAR and has been singing that same song for years now. He must be ecstatic that after all this time something is finally happening. I imagine he'll be devastated when he see's it doesn't hurt NASCAR all that much and it continues to survive.


Yeah yeah- kill the messenger, I get it.... Come back in a year and tell me he was wrong that american auto manufacturers have not reduced or practically eliminated factory support for nascab. And why shouldn't they - there's nothing remotely stock about the spec cars and engines they run except the fake headlight and grille decals. 'Win on Sunday Sell on Monday' has gone out the window a long time ago. Did'ya see the big three lost billions but Honda just had a record quarter profit ?

[call_me_andrew]

Yeah yeah- kill the messenger, I get it.... Come back in a year and tell me he was wrong that american auto manufacturers have not reduced or practically eliminated factory support for nascab. And why shouldn't they - there's nothing remotely stock about the spec cars and engines they run except the fake headlight and grille decals. 'Win on Sunday Sell on Monday' has gone out the window a long time ago. Did'ya see the big three lost billions but Honda just had a record quarter profit ?

Well if there's nothing stock about the car, and "win on Sunday/sell on Monday" doesnt apply, doesn't that just prove involvement in racing to be futile?

[Lee Roy]

Yeah yeah- kill the messenger, I get it....

No, but only a complete blithering idiot would pay any attention to DeLorenzo. Like I said, he hates NASCAR and has been claiming for years now that the manufacturers would pull their support from NASCAR due to a list of idiotic reasons (much like your list of reasons), and now that the drastic downturn in the economy is causing a cutback in sponsorship and manufacturer partcipation, he is just beside himself with glee. Hey, even a stopped clock is right at least twice a day.

And it's "NASCAR", not "nascab".


Come back in a year and tell me he was wrong . . .

I'll be here. And I've been listening to NASCAR haters such as yourself and DeLorenzo make bold predictions about NASCAR's demise for years now.

[Sparky1329]

DeLorenzo's reputation is pretty well known by many NASCAR fans. I don't know anybody who takes him seriously.

[Lemmy-Boy]

The Future of Nascar. BTW, I am only kidding so don't take it so seriously! ;)

http://www.unitedstatesoftoyota.com/layout/images/side_blue2.gif

[Jag_Warrior]

GM (Ford and Chrysler) is a poorly managed company. Rather than using the UAW as a convenient excuse, I would say poor management is closer to being the true root cause of the Big 3's failures than the UAW.

I'm usually pitted against unions, the UAW specifically. I've helped close down facilities that were set to go, or had gone union - and we moved them to right to work states. Some made it. Some didn't. It always depended on how the facility or company was managed. So here's how I see it: you could have the UAW go into most any Toyota or Honda auto assembly plant in the U.S., and that plant would still be successful. Work rules might change. It might become less efficient. It might not be as profitable as before. But it wouldn't go down the tubes... unless management let it go down the tubes. On the other hand, you could remove the UAW from a struggling GM, Ford or Chrysler auto assembly plant, and it would probably still struggle. Take the UAW out of the GM plant in Shreveport, LA. Would that suddenly make a plant that's devoted to building mid-size pickups and Hummers successful? And that's the story all around GM (Ford and Chrysler). It's going to cost GM billions (that it doesn't have) to retool and shutter factories, in order to start building some of what it should have been building to begin with. Being dumb is seldom profitable in the long term.

GM, Ford and Chrysler found a golden egg in SUV's and pickups through the 90's. Right now, over 70% of Chrysler's production capacity is STILL devoted to pickup and SUV production. Neither GM, Ford nor Chrysler has found a way to profitably make small cars in the U.S. Toyota has. Honda has. Nissan has. Hyundai has. Volkswagen is going to be breaking ground on a new plant in Tennessee very soon. But they won't be building gas guzzlers there. Knowing what the demand price points are for consumers, the Big 3 should have worked harder at developing efficient manufacturing processes that would have produced profitable vehicles for the company.

Unions do add cost and complexity to a business. But if management can't make the right product decisions, with or without a union, the business is probably going to struggle or fail. It takes GM, Ford and Chrysler months longer to take a vehicle from concept to showroom floor than any of the foreign transplants. You can't blame the UAW for that either. But anyway, considering what GM is now doing to cut expenses, there is no way to leave NASCAR spending untouched. But there are some smart guys/passionate company race fans trying to prove that cutting NASCAR spending by $X millions will mean a loss of marketshare of Y%. Personally, I doubt they're going to win that battle. It's now just a question of how deep the cuts will go.

[Saabaru]

Opel is developing a S2000 Rally car with MSD for what is said to be a future WRC car. Everything is a little hush-hush, though. With GM's sales droping in the US and climbing elsewhere, could they just be focusing there marketing through motor sports in other countries? Two Opels in the WRC would would reach more countries than multiple cars in NASCAR. If this is true it would be a direct result of the "race on Sunday and not being able to sale on Monday".

[Jag_Warrior]

I know there are many reasons GM is pulling back on NASCAR funding but I just wonder if one of the reasons they are is because the lack of NASCAR fans being patroitic to the brand. That's more NASCAR's short comming than GM or Fords though.I think as long as GM was making the payroll, not as many questions were being asked about racing sponsorships in NASCAR. No one was really having to prove that a certain level of funding equated to a certain level of marketshare. NASCAR delivers fantastic sponsor exposure value. But if your products are out of favor, what is that sponsor exposure value worth?

The best piece I've read about automotive sponsorships in that past few years was about Toyota getting into NASCAR. You'd think they would have gotten into Cup competition to sell more Camrys. But their NASCAR involvement (both CTS and Cup) was more about creating an image that would sell more Tundras. I thought that was pretty interesting.

[Zsolt]

Japanese cars? How many "Japanese" cars are made in the U.S.? How many "American" cars are made in other countries? This is another misconception Americans have too? My Ford, I believe has a Mazda engine, for example. It's a global economy, products get made everywhere, probably where it's the cheapest (i.e. walma**). Sam Walton(?) might be rolling in his grave today. And from personal experience, most of their stuff is sh**.

Sorry for getting a little off topic, too much coffee.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

It makes sense for GM to Cut the Corvette Racing Program. Doubt that program helps sell any cars.

[Saabaru]

It makes sense for GM to Cut the Corvette Racing Program. Doubt that program helps sell any cars.

Production car racing sales more cars than NASCAR.

[call_me_andrew]

The Corvette Racing program developes actual technology that goes into GM's road cars. NASCAR doesn't.

[gshevlin]

The Corvette Racing program developes actual technology that goes into GM's road cars. NASCAR doesn't.

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
The NASCAR formula needs a total makeover. Persisting with what is essentially a 1950's iron block pushrod V8 with a carbureter for a fuel system...this is beyond archaic. It is time for the manufacturers and NASCAR to jointly agree on a smaller displacement replacement engine formula that has some relevance to road cars.

[RaceFanStan]

Those who would change NASCAR need to realize :
1. NASCAR is making big money with that "beyond archaic" technology ...
2. NASCAR is riding a huge wave of fan popularity ...
3. NASCAR is commanding big price tags from sponsors that are lining up ...
4. NASCAR is successful & secure financially, enough said. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

In respect to the issue of increasing technology in motorsports,
look @ CART/ChampCar, they went under & the IRL continues to struggle,
their technology didn't/doesn't help them stay afloat, in fact failure seems immenent.

Some say bring high technology to NASCAR, I say NO THANK YOU !!! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
================================================== ======
Now back to the topic of GM reducing NASCAR funding,
GM can do that but Toyota will step up & in the end it could cost GM big. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/eek.gif

[call_me_andrew]

Well of course they're making money. They have a monopoly. Since most news outlets aren't interested, the IRL could have a better product and no one would ever know it. It's like one of those movies or TV shows that gets good reviews from critics and no one watches, but it goes on to blow everyone away in DVD sales.

It's not popular, it's just ubiquitous. It's like Windows and Apple. People don't buy them because they're the best. They buy them because they think those are the only choices.

Technology didn't kill CART. The IRL killed CART. If technology killed racing, Formula One would have keeled over years ago.

[Saabaru]

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
The NASCAR formula needs a total makeover. Persisting with what is essentially a 1950's iron block pushrod V8 with a carbureter for a fuel system...this is beyond archaic. It is time for the manufacturers and NASCAR to jointly agree on a smaller displacement replacement engine formula that has some relevance to road cars.
2000cc, unrestricted, forced induction engines! YES......!

[Jonesi]

Those who would change NASCAR need to realize :
1. NASCAR is making big money with that "beyond archaic" technology ...
2. NASCAR is riding a huge wave of fan popularity ...
3. NASCAR is commanding big price tags from sponsors that are lining up ...
4. NASCAR is successful & secure financially, enough said. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
In respect to the issue of increasing technology in motorsports, look @ CART/ChampCar, they went under & the IRL continues to struggle, their technology didn't/doesn't help them stay afloat, in fact failure seems immenent.

Some say bring high technology to NASCAR, I say NO THANK YOU !!! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
================================================== ======
Now back to the topic of GM reducing NASCAR funding,
GM can do that but Toyota will step up & in the end it could cost GM big. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/eek.gif

1. Yes
2. It's a little flat now, but that may be due to the economy.
3. Top teams still yes, but mid pack or worse it's getting very hard to find sponsorship.
4. Books aren't open, but yes they should be doing just fine.
CART/IRL had nothing to do with technology, just old fashion greed and lust for power.
If GM gets out they may just see Honda, Mercedes or BMW want to get in.

Personally I'd like to see a modern F/I 4.0-4.5L engine, which would also allow about 200-300lb weight reduction on the car which should help the car turn better and be safer.

[Jag_Warrior]

Things are not getting better in Detroit, they're getting worse. And as long as the series and teams depend on the Big 3 (and Toyota) for a significant portion of their sponsorships, NASCAR may have to bend some to keep the money flow near current levels. The current arrangement is good for NASCAR. But the Big 3 seem to be expressing the belief that it's not so great for them.

While Honda may eventually come in, I don't see premium brands like Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Volvo coming in - especially with the current engine package. No disrespect intended, but NASCAR's core demographic isn't one that those makers tend to focus on.

[Saabaru]

While Honda may eventually come in, I don't see premium brands like Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Volvo coming in - especially with the current engine package. No disrespect intended, but NASCAR's core demographic isn't one that those makers tend to focus on.

I don't see Honda in NASCAR any time soon.
Their plate is full with IRL, not to mention they have been dabbling in Rally the past few years.
If NASCAR wanted to they could have ten different manufacturers but they would have to go through some major changes.
1st thing would be to start using production chassis and modern power plants.

I for one would love to see NASCAR look more like this...
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/00/07cts.jpg

[RaceFanStan]

Cadillac is a GM company & GM is to reduce NASCAR funding ...
so don't hold your breath waiting for Cadillac to come to NASCAR http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Saabaru]

I was talking about having a more production type car, and was just putting a little visual aid allong with the message. I don't see Cadillac ever being involved in NASCAR but that is one of the best race cars GM has ever built.

[RaceFanStan]

They can't make a COT look like a Cadillac ... http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/orn/00.gif

[Saabaru]

They can't make a COT look like a Cadillac ... http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/orn/00.gif
That is exactly what I was saying, "Major Changes". Going from that over grown go-cart chassis with a shell that somewhat looks like a car to an actual production chassis to attract more manufacturers into the formula. Modified of course... The term N A S C A R actually started out with a "stock car"(you can do the research if you don't believe me) meaning a production car built to sale to the public. The COT would become the COY (car of yesterday). Or the CY because your not suppose to abbreviate conjunctions in english. :s mokin:

[Lee Roy]

I don't see Honda in NASCAR any time soon. Their plate is full with IRL,

Do you mean the IRL that just signed a TV deal with Versus? HAHA, the IRL is a complete and utter joke of a racing series.

Honda isn't pumping much into the IRL. They have a spec mule-motor that's the same for each and every team, dumbed down to make them last, since competition in the motor department is not allowed.

The "engine room" for an IRL team is the closet where they store the crate the motor came in.

[oldhippie]

That is exactly what I was saying, "Major Changes". Going from that over grown go-cart chassis with a shell that somewhat looks like a car to an actual production chassis to attract more manufacturers into the formula. Modified of course... The term N A S C A R actually started out with a "stock car"(you can do the research if you don't believe me) meaning a production car built to sale to the public. The COT would become the COY (car of yesterday). Or the CY because your not suppose to abbreviate conjunctions in english. :s mokin:
going to cot was a major change
you will have a long wait for it to go away :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Do you mean the IRL that just signed a TV deal with Versus? HAHA, the IRL is a complete and utter joke of a racing series.

Honda isn't pumping much into the IRL. They have a spec mule-motor that's the same for each and every team, dumbed down to make them last, since competition in the motor department is not allowed.

The "engine room" for an IRL team is the closet where they store the crate the motor came in.

I understand Wayne & Garth are going to be hosting a new IRL related show on Versus. You know it's bad when you're just a step above public access for the majority of your races.

Yeah, other than whatever money Honda (Japan) provides for Mutoh's "Formula Dream" ride at AGR, I'm not aware that Honda North America is doing much with the IRL. Most of their efforts seem to be focused on the Acura ALMS prgram now.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't see Honda in NASCAR any time soon. Their plate is full with IRL, not to mention they have been dabbling in Rally the past few years.

I'm not suggesting that Honda's entry is imminent. But of the brands in the N.A. market, Honda (with the Accord) would make the most sense from a demographic standpoint.

The Honda IRL engine program was pretty much farmed out to Ilmor years ago. I think Comptech has a piece of that too, but don't quote me on that. Honda supports some import drag racing, SCCA efforts and other small endeavors. But other than the Acura ALMS program, I'm not aware that HPD has much going on in the way of race engine development.

BTW, I love the idea of NASCAR getting back to cars that are more stock in appearance. And yeah, the Caddy CTS-V is a sweet looking machine. Several people at the LGR plant have posters and pictures of the race car crossing the finish line in 1st. IMO, it was a mistake to drop the funding for the SCCA program. But I don't see NASCAR backing up on the CoT, even though many fans don't get hyped about spec cars. Until the checks stop rolling in, nothing will change (IMO).

[Saabaru]

Until the checks stop rolling in, nothing will change (IMO).
Oh, NASCAR won't change until they are almost bankrupt or they start losing to many teams. But they have the potential to be more than they are right now; more top teams, more manufacturers and more fans.

[call_me_andrew]

The "engine room" for an IRL team is the closet where they store the crate the motor came in.

Which is exactly how it should be! Don't you find Ford vs. Chevy more interesting than Roush vs. Hendrick?

[Lee Roy]

Which is exactly how it should be! Don't you find Ford vs. Chevy more interesting than Roush vs. Hendrick?

I would be happy with either Ford vs. Chevy OR Roush vs. Hendrick. But Honda vs. nobody is a joke.

[Saabaru]

The rules in NASCAR are so narrow and outdated in the engine department they might as well be built in one shop and distributed from a "closet".

[tstran17_88]

The rules in NASCAR are so narrow and outdated in the engine department they might as well be built in one shop and distributed from a "closet".
Mr. Saabaru, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Saabaru]

Mr. Saabaru, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Bwahahahahahaha... I like that, that's the funniest thing I've heard all night! :D

[tstran17_88]

:D

[Jag_Warrior]

Which is exactly how it should be! Don't you find Ford vs. Chevy more interesting than Roush vs. Hendrick?

Outside of Porsche and Ferrari, the manufacturers tend to either bring in travelling hired guns or they badge engines built by specialty houses. At least Roush and Hendrick are using Ford and Chevy designs as a basis in NASCAR. In other series, when the Ford was really a Cosworth and the Chevy was really an Ilmor, that was more a check writing contest than anything else IMO. Heck, even Honda is farming out the heavy lifting (in the IRL) these days.

[call_me_andrew]

Mr. Saabaru, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

He's got a point. Most teams just import their engines from other teams. All Ford engines are built by Roush now. All Toyota engines come from TRD.

[Saabaru]

The "engine room" for an IRL team is the closet where they store the crate the motor came in.
Ummmm? Why attack me...

He's got a point. Most teams just import their engines from other teams. All Ford engines are built by Roush now. All Toyota engines come from TRD.
when Lee Roy made the comment :confused: I was just pointing out the obvious.

[tstran17_88]

He's got a point. Most teams just import their engines from other teams. All Ford engines are built by Roush now.

Roush Fenway is financing the engine operation, but Doug Yates is still the engine builder. The engines are built in Mooresville where RYR used to be located, all though I don’t think it’s in the same shops. (YR is now in the same subdivision as RF in Concord). There is only one other team running Fords in Cup and neither the Wood Bros or YR could afford to build their own engines and stay in business.


All Toyota engines come from TRD.

So if TRD supplies all the teams with a buttoned up crate engine, why would JGR still need to have a guy like Mark Cronquist (JGR engine builder) on the payroll?

[call_me_andrew]

So if TRD supplies all the teams with a buttoned up crate engine, why would JGR still need to have a guy like Mark Cronquist (JGR engine builder) on the payroll?

Yes, Toyota does instruct it's teams not to modify their crate engines. Cronquist's job is to read spark plugs, make fine adjustments to the carburetor and timing, and check for metal in the oil.

[tstran17_88]

Yes, Toyota does instruct it's teams not to modify their crate engines. Cronquist's job is to read spark plugs, make fine adjustments to the carburetor and timing, and check for metal in the oil.Sounds like he's more of an engine tuner now instead of the head engine builder...so you think they cut his salary to match?

[Jonesi]

Just announced on the news. The deal for Penske to take over Saturn has fallen through and GM will shut down the Saturn brand.

[Chaparral66]

Got a link?

[MD24]

Got a link?


http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=8715058

[Mark in Oshawa]

GM reducing funding for NASCAR? So much for win on Sunday, sell on Monday eh? I read most of the posts here....wont delve into most of it.

I will just say this: IF winning on the weekend sold cars, then with GM's pounding the crap out of the GT world in sportscar and the way Jimmie and the boys keep winning NASCAR races, then why did GM go broke? It means little...and probably some gov't bean counter at GM HQ who is overseeing the restructuring since they now own a piece of the action probably started asking awkward questions. GM raced before because they liked it, and they could always find the money in the past. Those days are over.