Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

[harsha]

That certainly supports the implied directive, but, IMO, doesn't make Ron or Mclaren a sneaky, two faced, back room scheming, bring the sport into disrepute, sleaze ball as Ioan would like us all to believe.

i don't know why Ioan keeps repeating this same monotonous post...atleast i've been in this forum for maybe 4 years....the same topic gets dragged all over again...

[truefan72]

well, this has been the most civil and level headed thread I've read in years ( for the most part) and I can only echo the general sentiment that this case and Brazil 2007 are benign and perhaps even legitimate uses of such an option, where the Rubens' cases were so blatantly obvious and unsporting as to herald in the rule in the first place.

There' will always be partisans who will defend their team no matter what, or hide behind the letter of the law ( rather than the intent or spirit). I for one am glad to see a good spirited conversation without evolving tolowly bickering... for the most part :)

[Shalafi]

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

[harsha]

well, this has been the most civil and level headed thread I've read in years ( for the most part) and I can only echo the general sentiment that this case and Brazil 2007 are benign and perhaps even legitimate uses of such an option, where the Rubens' cases were so blatantly obvious and unsporting as to herald in the rule in the first place.

There' will always be partisans who will defend their team no matter what, or hide behind the letter of the law ( rather than the intent or spirit). I for one am glad to see a good spirited conversation without evolving tolowly bickering... for the most part :)

er this community is always level headed and civil for the most part... :cheese:

talking about the formula 1 community

[truefan72]

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

Shalafi, we live in a global community now, where everything that is said , anywhere is always available for quotes and commentary, is posted on the internet, is picked up by web crawlers, is made known of instantly the world around. If he did make such a comment, the mass media and especially the hundreds of F1 sites would picked it up, talked about it, attributed the quotes to the original source, referenced the comments etc.

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.

I refer you to Occam's razor
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor )

[truefan72]

er this community is always level headed and civil for the most part... :cheese:

talking about the formula 1 community


yes sir :cool:

[Shalafi]

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.


Well, as you can see...this time global community wasnt as sharp as you thought... ;)

[jens]

I think it may be a logical assumption that Heikki was more furious about his own performance than the team orders, because he really didn't have anything to gain with excessive blocking and would have dropped to P5 sooner or later anyway and finished there. And anyway, HK managed to keep LH behind him for longer than FM or NP. :p :

[jjanicke]

.... And anyway, HK managed to keep LH behind him for longer than FM or NP. :p :

Exactly! And I'm sure their "team orders" were "Keep him behind you" ;)

[truefan72]

Exactly! And I'm sure their "team orders" were "Keep him behind you" ;)

LOL

[Dzeidzei]

Shalafi, we live in a global community now, where everything that is said , anywhere is always available for quotes and commentary, is posted on the internet, is picked up by web crawlers, is made known of instantly the world around. If he did make such a comment, the mass media and especially the hundreds of F1 sites would picked it up, talked about it, attributed the quotes to the original source, referenced the comments etc.

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor )

Well said. Only one problem: its totally false, at least in this case. The quote has been reported by many forum members, and if its not in English, some people wont believe it.

If it smells like it, looks like it and tastes like it, it must be it. Even in Finnish. And thats not contrary to Occam´s razor, buddy.

[ioan]

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

:up:

[Jag_Warrior]

Now that the elusive smoking gun has been found by the MotorsportForum Warren Commission (:rolleyes :) , what prevented Heikki from following Lewis and capturing 2nd place? What's the theory on that one?

Try to include the Mafia, the CIA or the KGB in the scenario... that will make it more fun to read. Marilyn Monroe is still dead (I think), but maybe Paris Hilton had a hand in this.

[ioan]

Now that the elusive smoking gun has been found by the MotorsportForum Warren Commission (:rolleyes :) , what prevented Heikki from following Lewis and capturing 2nd place? What's the theory on that one?

Try to include the Mafia, the CIA or the KGB in the scenario... that will make it more fun to read. Marilyn Monroe is still dead (I think), but maybe Paris Hilton had a hand in this.

:rolleyes:
I think tht most forum members are a bit more realist than you are.

[Jag_Warrior]

:rolleyes:
I think tht most forum members are a bit more realist than you are.

The linguists claim that their translation and interpretation proves the claim that there were team orders. So I am just asking, if "they" didn't let him race Lewis, what stopped him from racing everyone else who finished in front of him... and behind Hamilton?

As for realism, the only thing I've learned about our fellow forum members is that some of them would have flunked out of law school after the first week.

[truefan72]

Well said. Only one problem: its totally false, at least in this case. The quote has been reported by many forum members, and if its not in English, some people wont believe it.

If it smells like it, looks like it and tastes like it, it must be it. Even in Finnish. And thats not contrary to Occam´s razor, buddy.

convenient how you left out the quote of occam's razor. which states that all things being equal the simplest answer is usually true. Which in this case is that those quotes were never said and are some lonely forum's flight of fancy.

As I said, such a quote would have been headline news the F1 world around, not just the english media. I speak french, Spanish, German and Italian, and I didn't see any of those quotes anywhere in my usual rummaging of papers and sites. If you insist on beleiving that to sleep better at night,then that's your prerogative, but don't think that 99.9% of the world and forumers here have it wrong and missed this supposed sensational quote.


The linguists claim that their translation and interpretation proves the claim that there were team orders. So I am just asking, if "they" didn't let him race Lewis, what stopped him from racing everyone else who finished in front of him... and behind Hamilton?

As for realism, the only thing I've learned about our fellow forum members is that some of them would have flunked out of law school after the first week.

LOL, well said.

[ioan]

convenient how you left out the quote of occam's razor. which states that all things being equal the simplest answer is usually true. Which in this case is that those quotes were never said and are some lonely forum's flight of fancy.

As I said, such a quote would have been headline news the F1 world around, not just the english media. I speak french, Spanish, German and Italian, and I didn't see any of those quotes anywhere in my usual rummaging of papers and sites. If you insist on beleiving that to sleep better at night,then that's your prerogative, but don't think that 99.9% of the world and forumers here have it wrong and missed this supposed sensational quote.

English media to the left, english media to the right!

It's obvious that they don't speak Finnish. Or maybe you know it for a fact that they do?!

Your, and other member's, tries to mute a fact just because it wasn't reported in the English media is pathetic at least. And proves my point about the hypocrisy of many forumers.

[jas123f1]

Cue the accusations of Hekki being handicapped so Lewis looks good :laugh:

I wrote:
Yes - this time it was ok (let LH pass).. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.
--------------------

So you really think? that Lewis is a second faster than Heikki? :D

BTW - I'm quite sure that Lewis has "the first driver status" in the team :) .. and it has been that way then 2007 ... ask Alonso :) he knows… also that not every one in the team necessarily like it ..

[SGWilko]

Holy Overtaking Batman!!!

I've been on holiday in the Borders with poor internet connectivity, so have not been online in that time.

I have to say, I think I have witnessed more intelligent conversations in my Daughters Pre-School playground than in this thread.

You're all wasting your time on this subject.

:down:

[markabilly]

Seems freddie has spoken out on the subject, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647

Dennis added: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You could go back through the entire history of McLaren, you could talk to any driver that has driven for McLaren and you will not find anyone - save for one - who will not verify that this team always runs on the basis of equality and always will."

better make that two for the road, as I beleive lauda would strennously disagree with that, given all those certain car problems, and then the poster incident at the last race of a season where Mac clearly wanted his team mate to win.....

[Dave B]

Here's a lovely example of "Ronspeak" which both praises Heikki and makes his feelings clear regarding Alonso:


“Heikki was not told to let Lewis pass [at Hockenheim],” Dennis said. “But when you’re in a team and you know your teammate has the opportunity to win and you don’t, if you have the right values and values that are not lodged solely and exclusively in your own motives and selfishness then you take a decision, which is to allow the driver past.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article4454345.ece

:)

[Rollo]

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

I refer you to the Pot Vs Kettle case.

Please justify this thread in the light that Kimi Raikkonen did not fight Massa at China.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Team orders should be legal.

At this stage of the season, Kimi was always going to let Massa through and that's the way it should be.

[Jag_Warrior]

I refer you to the Pot Vs Kettle case.

Please justify this thread in the light that Kimi Raikkonen did not fight Massa at China.

I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

[F1boat]

Team orders should be legal.

At this stage of the season, Kimi was always going to let Massa through and that's the way it should be.

I agree!

[ioan]

I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

Especially when people can't make the difference between "mid-season" and "end of season", as well as between "still in with a chance" and "no more mathematical chance".

Honestly, some people should think before they post.

[Rollo]

No mathematical chance? the distance is 7 points. That gap would have been nine if Raikkonen hadn't deliberately slowed.

However, 7 points is not impoossible - 11 would be.

[mstillhere]

I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

[MrJan]

I was against it mid-season and I'm against it now. I hate it in rallying especially and I don't think that it should matter when in the season it happens. It's outright cheating but sadly it's a part of the sport and we need to accept that it's going to go on. It's the sort of sneaky move that I associate most with Ron Dennis (knob) but think that it's a real shame when any team resorts to it.

But we have to ask why we find it unacceptable but would be okay if Kimi had got in front of Lewis and backed him up? Curious little sport and how we all see it isn't it :D

[truefan72]

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

ROTFL :crazy:

What are you going on about man

Those were YOUR words, not his!

LOL

this is beyond surreal, the last time I saw this tpye of denial was when I told my ex-gf it was over and she still sent X-mas cards from both of us to my parents.

[gravity]

When u look at other main series like Nascar or Indy, if it wasn't pointed out to u that two cars were in the same team, you wouldn't know. At least, not by common paint schemes.

I think that "team mates" in F1 is more important than in most other series. Both cars are painted in the same scheme, have consecutive numbers... they're basically two halves of the same organisation.
In F1, team mates and how they work together with each other is a main part of the sport. Watching Lewis pass Heiki earlier in the season was expected. Watching Massa pass Kimi today was expected.
In both cases, I would have been disappointed if the drivers didn't work together for their net benefit.

[gravity]

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

Maybe I should try help u understand what is going on here?

I don't think Rollo or Jag are against what Kimi and Massa did today, just as they weren't against what Heiki and Lewis did earlier. Having seen how much you were against the earlier incident (and were so kind as to attach your comments for you), they just wanted to see/read your view on today's matter.

Do you now condone this team/driver tactic? Howcome you haven't posted similar comments regarding today's situation?

Feel privelaged :) It looks like someone reads what you post!

[Hawkmoon]

The hypocrisy rests with those who denounced Ferrari so strongly for using team orders in the Schumacher days, yet said little or nothing when McLaren did the same thing.

I question why this is so and I don't beleive my doing so is hypocrisy, it's more like wry bemusement that only my team gets criticised for team orders. McLaren go largely unquestioned for the same deed.

As for the two obvious cases this year, as ioan said, there's a pretty significant difference between Raikkonen moving over for Massa in the penultimate round and Kovalainen doing the same for Hamilton at the half way mark. Raikkonen could not win the title when he moved over. Kovalainen could, at least mathematically. Doesn't that go somewhat against McLaren's oft-stated modus operandi that they always let their drivers race until one can no longer win the title?

The sooner F1 stops this nonsense about team orders the better. If a team wants to operate with a No.1/No.2 driver policy then they should be allowed to. It worked for Ferrari for a decade and I can see it working for McLaren now.

[Rollo]

I think that if a team spends millions of pounds in bringing two cars to a circuit, then by inference because they have made the investment, then they should be allowed to work as a team.
I didn't necessarily have a problem with Hekki moving over for Lewis, and for the record, I do not have a problem with Kimi moving over for Massa.


What goes around comes around., comes to mind.
I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?
After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

The reason why i did bring this is the following: If you are going to bandy around allegations of hypocracy, then those allegations had better be founded in reason or fact; neither of which you've demonsatrated but amazingly keep on asking others to provide.

I think it was Noam Chomsky who defined hypocracy as the refusal to "apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others". Yet when I find evidence of this, you immediately accused me of same without necessarily providing either evidence or corollative theory.

[AJP]

This is hilarious

[Rollo]

Tell me about it. I nearly micturited in the act of cackination :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Especially when people can't make the difference between "mid-season" and "end of season", as well as between "still in with a chance" and "no more mathematical chance".

If you can show me any reference to those conditions in the FIA rules, I'm with ya brutha!
PM it to me or post it here when you manage to dig that up. Brazil is in two weeks. Think you'll be able to find that passage by then? :p



Honestly, some people should think before they post.

Yep, it seems so... ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

I've previously made no comment on today's result. In fact, I rather enjoyed today's race. No complaints from me. As was pointed out, that is your post, just with the players changed.

I did assume you might be feeling sort of conflicted though, given how you went on & on & on a few months back. :D

[pino]

I think that if a team spends millions of pounds in bringing two cars to a circuit, then by inference because they have made the investment, then they should be allowed to work as a team.
I didn't necessarily have a problem with Hekki moving over for Lewis, and for the record, I do not have a problem with Kimi moving over for Massa.




:up:

[leopard]

Not sure whether the team or Massa was the clever, in the three years of his drive at Ferrari strategy of supporting driver which more probability to win, Massa performed such task quite subtle, I think in China it looks somewhat blatant.

[Mickey T]

convenient how you left out the quote of occam's razor. which states that all things being equal the simplest answer is usually true.

actually, it states that the hypothesis arrived at using the fewest assumptions is almost always the correct one...


small, but important, difference.

[555-04Q2]

This is hilarious

:up: 100% :up:

[ioan]

If you can show me any reference to those conditions in the FIA rules, I'm with ya brutha!

It's called common sense, some people have it some don't! I leave it to you to guess which group you fit in. :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

It's called common sense, some people have it some don't! I leave it to you to guess which group you fit in. :rolleyes:

Please tell me that is NOT what is referenced in the FIA rulebook Ioan.......

[schmenke]

...The sooner F1 stops this nonsense about team orders the better. If a team wants to operate with a No.1/No.2 driver policy then they should be allowed to. ....

Exactly. Formula one is a team sport, as such teams should be permitted to make decisions that optimise their chosen team strategy.
Team orders have been part of F1 for decades now. To think that there is not a team on the gird today that does not apply them is naive.

[Dave B]

Luca Di Montezemolo is to discuss team orders with Max, presumably before the Brazillian GP.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44391&PO=44391

So expect Charlie Whiting to inform teams that it's legal, Ferrari will order Kimi to let Massa by, the stewards in their ignorance will penalise them, Ferrari will protest, McLaren will object to their protest, and we won't know who's Champion until the last week in November :rolleyes: :p

[SGWilko]

Luca Di Montezemolo is to discuss team orders with Max, presumably before the Brazillian GP.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44391&PO=44391

So expect Charlie Whiting to inform teams that it's legal, Ferrari will order Kimi to let Massa by, the stewards in their ignorance will penalise them, Ferrari will protest, McLaren will object to their protest, and we won't know who's Champion until the last week in November :rolleyes: :p

Cheers big mouth!

Now that you've told us all how it ends, is there any point in watching? ;)
:p : :D

[jens]

Luca Di Montezemolo is to discuss team orders with Max, presumably before the Brazillian GP.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44391&PO=44391

So expect Charlie Whiting to inform teams that it's legal, Ferrari will order Kimi to let Massa by, the stewards in their ignorance will penalise them, Ferrari will protest, McLaren will object to their protest, and we won't know who's Champion until the last week in November :rolleyes: :p

Or the team orders won't be banned, but...
Kimi lets Felipe pass for P1 and no problems.
Moments later McLaren uses the same opportunity with Heikki allowing Lewis to take P5, but... amazingly they'll become the first victims of "no team orders" rule and... Stewards add 25 seconds to LH's and HK's final times, which drop them to 7th and 8th and Massa becomes a WDC!

With this scenario, however, Ferrari has a guaranteed WDC, because drive throughs can't be appealed, no matter how mad the public is. That's why 25-sec will be given, not a disqualification, which can be protested. :p :

[truefan72]

Or the team orders won't be banned, but...
Kimi lets Felipe pass for P1 and no problems.
Moments later McLaren uses the same opportunity with Heikki allowing Lewis to take P5, but... amazingly they'll become the first victims of "no team orders" rule and... Stewards add 25 seconds to LH's and HK's final times, which drop them to 7th and 8th and Massa becomes a WDC!

With this scenario, however, Ferrari has a guaranteed WDC, because drive throughs can't be appealed, no matter how mad the public is. That's why 25-sec will be given, not a disqualification, which can be protested. :p :

I shudder to think of the dark scenario's.

[yodasarmpit]

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.
This thread just turned into Comedy Gold.

[MrJan]

Cheers big mouth!

Now that you've told us all how it ends, is there any point in watching?
:p : :D

This is why I hate the different time zones and why every race outside of Europe should be like Singapore ;) Some smart arse will always watch it and then tell us all that are waiting what happens :p :

[jjanicke]

This is why I hate the different time zones and why every race outside of Europe should be like Singapore ;) Some smart arse will always watch it and then tell us all that are waiting what happens :p :

But Mr Jan Yeo that's the key to watching F1 when not a EU resident.

Rule #1 for non-EU resident F1 fans: Don't access any media of any kind until you have watched the event (practice, qualifying, or race).

Certainly very hard to do when you have to work for a full day before being able to watch the event. But, with discipline, anything is possible, my friend! :)

[Knock-on]

Or the team orders won't be banned, but...
Kimi lets Felipe pass for P1 and no problems.
Moments later McLaren uses the same opportunity with Heikki allowing Lewis to take P5, but... amazingly they'll become the first victims of "no team orders" rule and... Stewards add 25 seconds to LH's and HK's final times, which drop them to 7th and 8th and Massa becomes a WDC!

With this scenario, however, Ferrari has a guaranteed WDC, because drive throughs can't be appealed, no matter how mad the public is. That's why 25-sec will be given, not a disqualification, which can be protested. :p :


I'm going to mark this post because I don't think it'll be too far away from the truth.

I said earlier in the season that this year is like a re-enactment of the film "Escape to Victory".

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm going to mark this post because I don't think it'll be too far away from the truth.
I guess it is only a year ago since BMW & Williams were not penalised despite their fuel being outside the permitted temperature, and McLaren were told they should have protested the race result not the stewards decision, but I really hope we're spared such controversy this time around :dozey: