The cheaters never gave up!

[ioan]

A statement read: "Car 23 was refuelled during Q2 using equipment that was not an FIA approved race refuelling system, and therefore the engine should have been stopped during the refuelling process."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69305

Still the mind boggling penalty is given to the driver and not the team, as if he was the one making a mistake:


Heikki Kovalainen was fined 5,000 euros for a breach of the refuelling regulations during the second part of qualifying for the German Grand Prix.

:rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Ignoring the deliberately provocative thread title :D this does seem a bit odd.

Heikki was fined because he did not stop the engine. Had he done so presumably there would have been no penalty.

The wording of the report suggests McLaren used a different - not illegal - refuelling system (note: "FIA approved race refuelling system" - but this was during qualifying) so that raises the question - are there different qualifying and race refuelling systems? Are teams compelled to use one or the other during qualifying?

If there are, and teams can choose which system to use in qualifying, then this may simply have been a case of miscommunication between team and driver.

[Dave B]

As I understand, teams can use a simple gravity-fed system (essentially a funnel!) outside of races, but as stated the engine must be stopped for obvious safety reasons.

So McLaren didn't do anything wrong, Kovy forgot to stop the engine.

No cheating, no performance advantage, just a mistake which rightly attracted a slapped wrist.

Move on, nothing to see here...

[Dave B]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

Article 29.2 is on page 15, ioan. Once you've read it, I hope you'll withdraw your "cheater" accusations.

[inimitablestoo]

Article 29.2 is on page 15, ioan. Once you've read it, I hope you'll withdraw your "cheater" accusations.

It's a bit too late to start teaching a Ferrari fan about sporting integrity methinks... :rolleyes:

[yodasarmpit]

Comments Deleted.

Yes it was odd that the driver was fined.

[Valve Bounce]

Ignoring the deliberately provocative thread title :D this does seem a bit odd.

Heikki was fined because he did not stop the engine. Had he done so presumably there would have been no penalty.

The wording of the report suggests McLaren used a different - not illegal - refuelling system (note: "FIA approved race refuelling system" - but this was during qualifying) so that raises the question - are there different qualifying and race refuelling systems? Are teams compelled to use one or the other during qualifying?

.

Yes!! Surely you didn't think they would use two refueling systems simultaneously.

[Valve Bounce]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

Article 29.2 is on page 15, ioan. Once you've read it, I hope you'll withdraw your "cheater" accusations.

Maybe when ioan reaches 90 and forgets that F1 involves cars with wheels. :D

[ioan]

And now we get team orders from team "integrity"!

[yodasarmpit]

And now we get team orders from team "integrity"!
Kova was never in a position today to compete against Lewis, so hardly surprising Lewis passed him.

[Viktory]

Kova was never in a position today to compete against Lewis, so hardly surprising Lewis passed him.

passed him? don't you mean was let by? If this had been Ferrari, all hell had broke lose already.

[yodasarmpit]

passed him? don't you mean was let by? If this had been Ferrari, all hell had broke lose already.Passed, let by, whatever you wish to call it.
He would have passed at some point, the question is how long, obviously Kova moved over but it was inevitable anyway.

And why would all hell let lose if it had been Ferrari ??

[ioan]

Kova was never in a position today to compete against Lewis, so hardly surprising Lewis passed him.

Half a lap before RD was on radio with the drivers, just re-watch the race if you don't believe it.

Than all of a sudden Heiki "outbrakes" himself, only as much as needed to drastically slow down without even the slightest chance to get out of shape.

Call it what you wish, it was team orders, and they are now banned.

People jumped on Ferrari back in 2002 when it wasn't banned, will however close the eyes or look away because it McLaren.

Hypocrites.

[yodasarmpit]

Hypocrites.Don't dare all me a hypocrite, I was never one to complain when Ferrari employed team orders, they along with McLaren and every other team still employ team orders.
You would have to be incredibly naive to suggest otherwise.

[ioan]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

Article 29.2 is on page 15, ioan. Once you've read it, I hope you'll withdraw your "cheater" accusations.

You should tell that to Heiki, as I bet he doesn't know the rule book by heart, and I'm also sure the team didn't tell him anything.

And this is why I'm puzzled, the team wasn't penalized for filling him up while the engine was on, but he was penalized for not turning off the engine.

Now, a rhetorical question, should the engine be turned off before the refueling or during the process?

Why did the team refuel the car knowing that the engine should have been turned off first?!

Clearly not the drivers fault, still he gets the fine! :rolleyes:

You lot are fast jumping on me, before even trying to reason about the problem.

[Robinho]

it was clearly a team "suggestion" at the very least, but i'm not sure that anyone else would have handled it differently - Hamilton was clearly far faster and probablywould have passed him anyway - seeing as he went on to pass the next 2 cars and end up quite a few seconds ahead of Heikki, who did not even clsoe on tha casr ahead. its not like it contrived the result of the race by handing someone a position just for a couple of points, plus its also not like Heikki is part of the championship battle.

i would be surprised if anyone here, or any team would have done something different, and i also expect the messgae was probably something like "Lewis is much faster and fighting for the win, be sensible"

[Koppomsbo]

Well it was very obvious that Lewis would pass Kova but it was made it an a very obvious way. And i think Kova clearly showed what his tougths about it.

As sad earlier in the tread, i also think that if this have been Ferrari it have would meant some punishment...

[ioan]

Don't dare all me a hypocrite, I was never one to complain when Ferrari employed team orders, they along with McLaren and every other team still employ team orders.
You would have to be incredibly naive to suggest otherwise.

Sorry, it came out that way, I wasn't referring to you personally, only the first part of my post was directed to you.

If you didn't do it back then, than fair from you. :up:

[Viktory]

that's probably very true, but if this had been Ferrari, the reactions on this message board would have been a lot different.

[gloomyDAY]

Hamilton was faster and Kovy was holding up the eventual race winner.

What's the problem?

[truefan72]

You should tell that to Heiki, as I bet he doesn't know the rule book by heart, and I'm also sure the team didn't tell him anything.

And this is why I'm puzzled, the team wasn't penalized for filling him up while the engine was on, but he was penalized for not turning off the engine.

Now, a rhetorical question, should the engine be turned off before the refueling or during the process?

Why did the team refuel the car knowing that the engine should have been turned off first?!

Clearly not the drivers fault, still he gets the fine! :rolleyes:

You lot are fast jumping on me, before even trying to reason about the problem.


ioan it was the drivers fault and that;s why he got the fine.
The team may have reminded him to switch off the engine or not, but he was suppossed to know to do that. His failure to do so was why he was penalized $5,000 presumebly for a safety violation. So it isn't cheating or anything serious, indicated by the amount of the fine, which is less than the fine for speeding in the pits.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Half a lap before RD was on radio with the drivers, just re-watch the race if you don't believe it.

Than all of a sudden Heiki "outbrakes" himself, only as much as needed to drastically slow down without even the slightest chance to get out of shape.

Call it what you wish, it was team orders, and they are now banned.

People jumped on Ferrari back in 2002 when it wasn't banned, will however close the eyes or look away because it McLaren.

Hypocrites.


There is just a slight difference between

* letting the much faster driver, who is being held up and who is in the championship battle through so he can chase down the leaders and win the race

than

* slowing down the faster driver on the final corner so the other driver can win.

It was only a matter of time before Lewis would pass Heikki as he was at least 3tenths faster per lap throughout the entire race, so it probably (definitely) didn't change the outcome of the race.

[AndySpeed]

You lot are fast jumping on me, before even trying to reason about the problem.

Perhaps because you created a thread title that was just asking for it!

[yodasarmpit]

Sorry, it came out that way, I wasn't referring to you personally, only the first part of my post was directed to you.

If you didn't do it back then, than fair from you. :up: Fair enough Ioan, I would prefer no team orders, and that all drivers be allowed to race each other as if they were in different teams.
I do, however, accept the reality of modern F1 that no matter what the rules, there will always be an element of team orders in every single team.

I do believe that on this occasion, regardless of the team orders Lewis would have passed Kova anyway.

[ioan]

Perhaps because you created a thread title that was just asking for it!

We have a saying:

"One idiot throws a stone in the river and 10 smart ones will jump to get it out."

[yodasarmpit]

We have a saying:

"One idiot throws a stone in the river and 10 smart ones will jump to get it out."
We call that feeding the troll :D hehe.

[ioan]

I do, however, accept the reality of modern F1 that no matter what the rules, there will always be an element of team orders in every single team.

I do believe that on this occasion, regardless of the team orders Lewis would have passed Kova anyway.

I, personally, don't have anything against team orders either.

I'm just grabbing this occasion to remind some people about their hypocrisy from a few years ago!

PS: I agree Hamilton would have passed Kovalainen, he was that much faster.

[ioan]

We call that feeding the troll :D hehe.

I call that being worse than the troll! ;)

Anyway, even if the thread title was provocative, the fact is that the driver was punished for the team's fault. And this is what the problem is, why didn't they own up to it instead of letting Heiki look like an idiot.

[SGWilko]

Ioan

You are on occasion a guy who posts reasnable and often inmformative info/threads.

Today, I really think you scraped the bottom of the barrel with this thread title.

Tut tut, 50 lines. :laugh: ;)

[F1boat]

I think that McLaren showed that they are no different to Todt's Ferrari when Ron called Heikki to let Lewis. I think that it is not according to the rules, unlike Austria 2003 and to me both cars should be excluded from race results. I am also sure that if Ferrari had done this, all people here would have been calling for black flague.

[xyz123]

The rule making team orders illegal was actually introduced in 1998 so there is no difference in the legality of today and Austria 2002. The FIA have already set the precedent of how they should treat teams in order to be fair and impartial.

About the refuelling incident and the penalty. I don't know if you were trying to imply the penalty should have been something other then a fine, but if you were then think back to Jos Verstappen's refuelling fire at Hockenheim in 1994. The FIA investigated the fuel rig to find out what had caused the fire and discovered safety features had been removed or tampered with in order to increase the flow rate. The punishment for this was a fine, although a significantly higher amount. The FIA had already set a precedent on how the handling refuelling transgressions.

[jens]

What's the big deal? When one driver is clearly faster than his team-mate, then it's quite usual the latter doesn't make passing "too difficult" (unless there is a fierce between the drivers, which actually doesn't occur too often anyway).

Unlike a lot of F1 fans team orders have never annoyed me - they are simply a natural part of motor racing.

[Somebody]

Can a mod rename the thread? Using a funnel rather than the refuelling rig is hardly "cheating" - the $%^&-up was safety rather than performance related in having the engine on at the time.

And did Massa & Piquet let Hamilton by? If Heikki had been artificially slowed to miss that turn (and didn't Massa's "defence" look oh-so-similar...), then he wouldn't have been so far behind Hamilton so as to let Heidfeld slot between them after Nick's pit stop.

[TMorel]

team orders are a tough call. I was most unhappy with Nick being the one to let Robert pass when they were both in with a shout at BMW's first win.

When cars are on different stratagies which require keeping faster cars behind (including teammate) but are both battling for overall victory then I'm not happy when the heavy car gets pulled over - a sort of double whammy, we're making your car slow and heavy AND making you let your main rival past.

When one driver is quite frankly as slow as Heikki was in comparison today then sorry, that's more "not being stupid" than team orders.

[jens]

team orders are a tough call. I was most unhappy with Nick being the one to let Robert pass when they were both in with a shout at BMW's first win.


As Robert had one more scheduled stop than Nick, then Nick should have tried to keep the pace of RK (or not to drop too far back) to regain the lead after the Pole had stopped. So letting him by was only logical - it didn't cost him the win yet, his pace cost.

[F1boat]

Unlike a lot of F1 fans team orders have never annoyed me - they are simply a natural part of motor racing.
I also think so, but when phone calls ordering drivers to change postion are forbidden, the rules should be respected. Besides, McLaren always said that they are against them.
Obviously not always.

[SGWilko]

I also think so, but when phone calls ordering drivers to change postion are forbidden, the rules should be respected. Besides, McLaren always said that they are against them.
Obviously not always.

Any chance of telling us all on here the content of the 'phone call'?

You clearly have an insight into this that us mortals crave.............

[F1boat]

Contunue to crave ;)
Actually our TV showed how Ron pushes the buttons for communication and immediately after that Heikki, who, up to this time was fighting Lewis, let him to go.
Obvious team-order, which is normal for motorsport, but I am afraid that it is forbidden. The FIA should have at least investigated what happened.

[ioan]

The rule making team orders illegal was actually introduced in 1998 so there is no difference in the legality of today and Austria 2002. The FIA have already set the precedent of how they should treat teams in order to be fair and impartial.

The rule was introduced after Austria 2002. Prior to Austria 2002 there was no such rule. So there is a difference.

FYI Ferrari were fined after Austria 2002 for what happened on the podium, exactly because there was no rule against team orders, yet.

[xyz123]

The rule was introduced after Austria 2002. Prior to Austria 2002 there was no such rule. So there is a difference.

FYI Ferrari were fined after Austria 2002 for what happened on the podium, exactly because there was no rule against team orders, yet.

No, the rule was introduced after the 1998 Australian Grand Prix when Coulthard let Hakkinen through after Hakkinen mistakenly pulled into the pits. They had a pre-race agreement that whoever led after the first corner would win.

Even if you do try and argue that it was introduced after 2002, there was still the staged finished at Indy that happened later that year.

[jens]

This is funny, how situations have changed by 100%. :D

In Schumacher's era Ferrari was believed to have a driver advantage and McLaren needed a superior car to win the title.
Now McLaren is the team, who has the honour to own a real star and Ferrari needs a superior car to have a good chance of a WDC.

Besides all this now also instead of Ferrari McLaren is being criticized for using team-orders. In the past Ferrari was criticized for cheating and being favoured by FIA. Now Hamilton is called the "Golden Boy" and McLaren are called "cheaters".

What a complete turnover! :D Also the attitudes of both Ferrari and McLaren fan groups seem to have changed - what in the past seemed "right", doesn't seem so much any more and the reverse. :p :

[ioan]

No, the rule was introduced after the 1998 Australian Grand Prix when Coulthard let Hakkinen through after Hakkinen mistakenly pulled into the pits. They had a pre-race agreement that whoever led after the first corner would win.

Even if you do try and argue that it was introduced after 2002, there was still the staged finished at Indy that happened later that year.

Give us a link to a document where it states that the rule against team orders was introduced in 1998. Until then you have no proof.

[xyz123]

Give us a link to a document where it states that the rule against team orders was introduced in 1998. Until then you have no proof.

The same applies to your assertion that is was in 2002.

[xyz123]

Give us a link to a document where it states that the rule against team orders was introduced in 1998. Until then you have no proof.

The same applies to your assertion that is was in 2002.

[Robinho]

and regardless, as far as i know (please correct me if i am wrong) but all team orders aren't banned, after all it is a team sport and there is some recognition of this, as i understand it the rules against team orders prevent blatant switching of places to no advantage to the team.

releasing a quicker car to go on and win the race (and pick up many more constructors points) in hardly in contention with the spirit of the team order rules, especially when only one of the 2 drivers can practicaly be considered part of the title race.

if it were any other team i would defend todays move, it was sensible form a team point of view, and again, in the (quite different) circumstances of, say, Austria 2002, i would condemn the move, regardless of the team, when it was just a manufacturing of the result to the detriment of one driver at a stage when it made next to no difference to the drivers title race, altho at the time it was technically not against the rules.

i tire of the relentless approach of some forumers who constantly try to create the assertion that "if it was Mclaren/Ferrari everyone would be saying different", there are plenty on both sides, your not being hard done by and everyone is not automatically a partizan just because they defend someone or have a bad word about someone else

[ioan]

The same applies to your assertion that is was in 2002.

:rotflmao:

Man, you were the one starting with your '98 assertion, either you prove it or you take it back.

Ball's in your court. :cool:

[Valve Bounce]

And now we get team orders from team "integrity"!

So!! The point being???

[ioan]

So!! The point being???

Someone just woke up?!

[BDunnell]

This is funny, how situations have changed by 100%. :D

In Schumacher's era Ferrari was believed to have a driver advantage and McLaren needed a superior car to win the title.
Now McLaren is the team, who has the honour to own a real star and Ferrari needs a superior car to have a good chance of a WDC.

Besides all this now also instead of Ferrari McLaren is being criticized for using team-orders. In the past Ferrari was criticized for cheating and being favoured by FIA. Now Hamilton is called the "Golden Boy" and McLaren are called "cheaters".

What a complete turnover! :D Also the attitudes of both Ferrari and McLaren fan groups seem to have changed - what in the past seemed "right", doesn't seem so much any more and the reverse. :p :

And it was just as tiresome and unnecessary a 'war' when the ball was in Ferrari's court as it is now. I'm utterly sick of it.

[Valve Bounce]

Someone just woke up?!

Is that your excuse - very, very weak!!

Why keep harassing this forum with your foibles? You sound like a broken record. Give it up and change the mindset and the subject. You are becoming an artesian bore.

[jso1985]

legal or not, there's a difference between letting a faster team-mate pass you than giving up a win on the last second because your team wants to

I don't agree with what McLaren did today but like it or not it was far from reaching the low Ferrari reached in Austria 2002

[Dave B]

Come on! Look at the start of the British GP, Heikki and Lewis were fighting like mad for position to the extent that they nearly touched - James Allen described it as "uncompromising driving" from Kovy. It took Lewis FOUR LAPS to get by - hardly team orders.

Then look at what happened yesterday when Lewis made his pit stop. He came out behind his team mate and was stuck there for half a lap when he desperately needed to make up time on Massa. He was offered no favours until it was obvious that he was the faster man.

Ron probably did get on the phone to Heikki, but Lewis was so much quicker at that point that no team orders were necessary.

Anyway, if Ferrari (or anybody else) thought there was a problem you can bet the farm they'd have lodged a protest. They did not.

[ArrowsFA1]

The rule making team orders illegal was actually introduced in 1998.


The rule was introduced after Austria 2002.

Team orders were banned in October 2002 after the Formula One Commission met with all the team bosses in London.

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/8994/.html

[Knock-on]

I call that being worse than the troll! ;)

So, a troll starts a thread and people point out where he is not just trolling but also wrong and that's worse than than Trolling.

Hmmmmm, that explains a lot about your logic ;)


Anyway, even if the thread title was provocative, the fact is that the driver was punished for the team's fault. And this is what the problem is, why didn't they own up to it instead of letting Heiki look like an idiot.

Is that a bit like Lewis saying he was sorry if he ruined Kimi's race :D

Basically, it was a safety issue.

The team should have been aware of the fact that they needed to have the car off but ultimately, it's the drivers responsibility to know what the rules are governing his actions when in control of his vehicle. However, in the midst of qualifying, sometimes people may miss little things.

No big deal, no great shakes. Slap on the wrist and remember for next time.

Good opportunity for a bit of Trolling though ioan ;)

About the team orders.

Ron did communicate with hekki and I imagine he said something like "Lewis is behind you and flying".

Whether Hekki thought he would lose time trying to keep his team mate behind him so he "outbraked" himself we don't know but I guess he let him by as he knew he would lose the position anyway. No point in fighting too hard with the Championship leader who is also your team mate and risk taking both out is there?

As we saw from less "friendly" opposition, Lewis was coming through regardless :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

Let's look at the facts. McLaren had been found guilty and they have been severely fined. Do we really need to go back to the times that SchM was cheating? or Benneton? or Ferrari? Do we need to refer to them as cheaters also?
Can we not move on instead of putting up with a member's continued nagging, nagging, nagging?

I am sure janippi will find this another occasion that I am insulting/abusing ioan. I am not! I am just sick of his nagging and want this forum to move on.

OK! ban me if you must for being courageous enough to speak the truth for half the forum. So be it!

[ArrowsFA1]

The 2008 FIA Sporting Regs Article 39.1 says: "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited."

[Valve Bounce]

The 2008 FIA Sporting Regs Article 39.1 says: "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited."

Seeing the way Lewis then went on to pass Massa and Piquet, if (and I say if) Kovi was told to let Lewis through, I really cannot see how this would have interfered with the race result, because Lewis would have passed Kovi in the same manner anyway.

[jens]

Team orders have often been used since 2003 too, but in a more covered way. None of them have been punished. The rules prohibiting team orders are foggy. They are probably meant to prevent a clearly better perfoming driver from losing his better result or win, but in this case Kovalainen had no chance for the win, while Hamilton clearly had. If we start punishing every case of a slower team-mate letting his faster-team through "too easily", then we would get into a mess.

[555-04Q2]

Contunue to crave ;)
Actually our TV showed how Ron pushes the buttons for communication and immediately after that Heikki, who, up to this time was fighting Lewis, let him to go.

I noticed that too. I cant believe the people who were shouting foul after the RB lets MS past in Austria 2002 incident are trying to justify the HK lets LH past scenario. Double standards :(

I'm all for team orders, but rules are rules.

[ArrowsFA1]

I cant believe the people who were shouting foul after the RB lets MS past in Austria 2002 incident are trying to justify the HK lets LH past scenario.
If Heikki had been quickest all weekend, qualified on pole, dominated the race, yet still been instructed to gift the race to his team-mate when they were running one-two (and therefore already giving the team the optimum result) in the interests of the championship then perhaps such a comparison could be made.

[Valve Bounce]

If Heikki had been quickest all weekend, qualified on pole, dominated the race, yet still been instructed to gift the race to his team-mate when they were running one-two (and therefore already giving the team the optimum result) in the interests of the championship then perhaps such a comparison could be made.

I think your explanation may be too complicated for some people here. :p :
Put simply, Kovi ended quite some distance and several places behind Lewis at the finish. Did anyone here (apart from McLaren haters) really expect Kovi to hold Lewis up for several laps until Lewis worked his way past, like the way he passed Massa and Junior?

[BDunnell]

Let's look at the facts. McLaren had been found guilty and they have been severely fined. Do we really need to go back to the times that SchM was cheating? or Benneton? or Ferrari? Do we need to refer to them as cheaters also?
Can we not move on instead of putting up with a member's continued nagging, nagging, nagging?

I am sure janippi will find this another occasion that I am insulting/abusing ioan. I am not! I am just sick of his nagging and want this forum to move on.

OK! ban me if you must for being courageous enough to speak the truth for half the forum. So be it!

I couldn't agree more. It's become like a cracked record. And I sincerely hope you don't get banned.

This isn't to do with disagreeing with different opinions, by the way, before anyone mentions it. I have no problem with opinions that are different to mine being expressed, but there are ways of doing it.

[Roamy]

Whew I thought this was another Michael Schumacher thread.
Yes Dennis is a cheater but so what - You euros can't even get rid of a
guy beating a whore on TV. It ain't never going to change and I am
happy to have McLaren in F1. they put up a mighty challenge

[Sleeper]

As for the fine, slight brain fade from Heikki who forgot to turn off the engine when he should have. No biggi, its already been intimated from several people that F1 drivers today have so much to do and think about with operating an F1 car that they are getting close to the edge of their mental capacity (Wurz put this up as a possible reason for Hamilton's pit lane crash in Canada, and Ive read others have said as much as well), small mistakes are going to happen.

As to the team orders thing, so what? The FIA moniter the radio traffic between all teams and drivers so they would know if it was a blatent attempt to have move one guy over. I cant believe some people are trying to compare this with Austria 02, the situations here are completely different. Hamilton is fighting for a world title, was clearly the fastest man all day and was coming back from a comprimised pit stratagy. Telling Heikki to move over (without directly saying so, bbecause that would be stupid with the current rules) and stop him from costing Hamilton much time was only sensible. Schumacher was running away with the 02 title from the start, so he was hardly fighting for it as there was no one to fight with, and was slower than Rubens all weekend but was gifted a win for nothing other than... errrr, well, god knows what they did it for. I also remember a quote from Max Mosely at the time of the new rule being introduced where he said he would have no trouble with discreet team orders that helped a driver/team in a title battle. Lets be honest as well, team orders were never stoped, they just found new ways to impliment them.

[Oli_M]

Let's look at the facts. McLaren had been found guilty and they have been severely fined. Do we really need to go back to the times that SchM was cheating? or Benneton? or Ferrari? Do we need to refer to them as cheaters also?
Can we not move on instead of putting up with a member's continued nagging, nagging, nagging?

I am sure janippi will find this another occasion that I am insulting/abusing ioan. I am not! I am just sick of his nagging and want this forum to move on.

OK! ban me if you must for being courageous enough to speak the truth for half the forum. So be it!

BEST. POST. EVER.

What would worry me more if I was ioan was why his beloved Ferrari team just let Lewis go by....... now those are crazy team orders!

[wmcot]

I noticed that too. I cant believe the people who were shouting foul after the RB lets MS past in Austria 2002 incident are trying to justify the HK lets LH past scenario. Double standards :(

I'm all for team orders, but rules are rules.

Yep. It's amazing how many Ferrari haters are now saying that "team orders are all right if they don't look too obvious" and "everybody is using them."

It seems they are fine if they are being used by your team and your team is winning! :(

[ioan]

Let's look at the facts. McLaren had been found guilty and they have been severely fined. Do we really need to go back to the times that SchM was cheating? or Benneton? or Ferrari? Do we need to refer to them as cheaters also?


Yeah, please bring up the times when Ferrari were caught cheating, however I'm expecting you to prove it too! :rolleyes:



Can we not move on instead of putting up with a member's continued nagging, nagging, nagging?
I am sure janippi will find this another occasion that I am insulting/abusing ioan. I am not! I am just sick of his nagging and want this forum to move on.

OK! ban me if you must for being courageous enough to speak the truth for half the forum. So be it!

I might not like what some on eth forum post, however I do not feel the need to publicly crucify them.

Got a problem? Send a PM. :rolleyes:

I hope the mods won't even give you a warning. I would hate to know that you can't enjoy the forum because of me. :)

PS: Courageous you say?

[ioan]

Yep. It's amazing how many Ferrari haters are now saying that "team orders are all right if they don't look too obvious" and "everybody is using them."

It seems they are fine if they are being used by your team and your team is winning! :(

:up:
Few people around here know something about ethics! It is really sad.

[AJP]

You lot are fast jumping on me, before even trying to reason about the problem.
Just as you have jumped on McLaren calling them cheaters, when it is you who does not the events that took place, the words that were spoken, the thoughts that went through the drivers and the teams minds when they were refuelling.
talk about reasoning, maybe you should try this yourself sometime before starting rediculous threads.

[Zico]

Let's look at the facts. McLaren had been found guilty and they have been severely fined. Do we really need to go back to the times that SchM was cheating? or Benneton? or Ferrari? Do we need to refer to them as cheaters also?
Can we not move on instead of putting up with a member's continued nagging, nagging, nagging?

I am sure janippi will find this another occasion that I am insulting/abusing ioan. I am not! I am just sick of his nagging and want this forum to move on.

OK! ban me if you must for being courageous enough to speak the truth for half the forum. So be it!

Well said, couldnt agree more.. its beyond pathetic. Its the one and only thing that dissapoints me about this forum.. it often appears to have this constant bitching/namecalling mentality.
Over on a similar forum I frequent, this type discussion is almost unheard off. They seem to be far more mature.. all fans of Formula 1, technology and respect all other teams/drivers far more, no matter where their loyalties lie.

Maybe the mods think it promotes discussion and is therefore positive but I personally think it attracts the wrong type of 'fans' .
I've noticed that whenever a technical question gets asked on here its largely ignored or unknown.. which is pretty sad but perfect proof in my opinion.

[schmenke]

Well said, couldnt agree more.. its beyond pathetic. Its the one and only thing that dissapoints me about this forum.. it often appears to have this constant bitching/namecalling mentality.
Over on a similar forum I frequent, this type discussion is almost unheard off. They seem to be far more mature.. ...

Please PM me.

[BDunnell]

Well said, couldnt agree more.. its beyond pathetic. Its the one and only thing that dissapoints me about this forum.. it often appears to have this constant bitching/namecalling mentality.
Over on a similar forum I frequent, this type discussion is almost unheard off. They seem to be far more mature.. all fans of Formula 1, technology and respect all other teams/drivers far more, no matter where their loyalties lie.

Maybe the mods think it promotes discussion and is therefore positive but I personally think it attracts the wrong type of 'fans' .
I've noticed that whenever a technical question gets asked on here its largely ignored or unknown.. which is pretty sad but perfect proof in my opinion.

:up:

In turn, I couldn't agree more with that. The answer to the problem is surely for everyone to be more equable, no matter where personal loyalties lie. It's an excellent point about respecting all teams and drivers more, and I hope certain people take heed of it.

Can we have our sensible discussions — i.e. ones without name-calling and accusations/slurs against drivers, teams, other forum members, based on personal bias — back, please? It's not a lot to ask.

[Valve Bounce]

ioan, I was going to address your post but it appears other forumers have done so. I have no intention of crucifying you - that was never my intention. I just want you, and anyone else to get over this cheaters thing. After all, it was a Ferrari employee, Stepney, who started the whole thing.

Many forumers here consider that SchM was the greatest driver ever in F1, and they are entitled to. How would they feel if every time SchM appeared in the pits or test track that I started another cheating thread and this forum then descended into name calling creating a feel bad situation? There is no need for this; it is time to move on and enjoy this forum.

I have friends here who love SchM, love Ferrari, and even at the moment the guy who I would like to see win the championship is Kimi who drives a Ferrari. If I won the lottery tonight, I would go and buy myself a Ferrari tomorrow. (as against a Mercedes or BMW or McLaren). Taz loves Ferrari and SchM, so why would I want to irritate him?

You obviously have a good deal of technical knowledge about F1, so why not contribute positively to this forum so we can all enjoy the discussions?

I hope this clarifies my stance.

[Roamy]

my god this thread has turned into the soap box derby. Actually this was one hell of a race and the guy that deserved to win - won! Quite frankly some are making this thread too serious. Kick back - lewis is No 1 at Mclaren and quite frankly he should be. It is not all about blocking. If Kove was fast enough he could have driven back up and challenged. Actually Ron called the right deal if he did in fact move Kove over. Lewis was considerably faster and I certainly would not want to risk both cars at that stage of the race. I am sure if Kove had driven up with 10 laps to go it would be all out war.

[MAX_THRUST]

HERE HERE............Well said Valve Bounce. Ferrari need to look at why a member of their staff felt the need to do what he did, that and sort out their corporate security of priveledged information.

I loved last years championship, best ever, shame Ferrari, and MAx had to ruin it for everyone,

[ioan]

Just as you have jumped on McLaren calling them cheaters, when it is you who does not the events that took place, the words that were spoken, the thoughts that went through the drivers and the teams minds when they were refuelling.
talk about reasoning, maybe you should try this yourself sometime before starting rediculous threads.

The driver was required to stop the engine before that refueling device could be used.
He didn't, for whatever reason.
In this case the team, who knew better than him, or at least should have known better, shouldn't have refueled before they made sure he turned off the engine.

Tell me why do you believe that the team refuel him with the said device even if he didn't switch off the engine?

This is a serious question, so please do answer it.

[ioan]

ioan, I was going to address your post but it appears other forumers have done so. I have no intention of crucifying you - that was never my intention. I just want you, and anyone else to get over this cheaters thing. After all, it was a Ferrari employee, Stepney, who started the whole thing.

Many forumers here consider that SchM was the greatest driver ever in F1, and they are entitled to. How would they feel if every time SchM appeared in the pits or test track that I started another cheating thread and this forum then descended into name calling creating a feel bad situation? There is no need for this; it is time to move on and enjoy this forum.

I have friends here who love SchM, love Ferrari, and even at the moment the guy who I would like to see win the championship is Kimi who drives a Ferrari. If I won the lottery tonight, I would go and buy myself a Ferrari tomorrow. (as against a Mercedes or BMW or McLaren). Taz loves Ferrari and SchM, so why would I want to irritate him?

You obviously have a good deal of technical knowledge about F1, so why not contribute positively to this forum so we can all enjoy the discussions?

I hope this clarifies my stance.

Fair enough. :up:

I already acknowledge in one of the previous posts that the title was aggressive.
However many replies weren't less aggressive than that and were not an answer to the problem presented in the first post but rather attacks towards me.
I'll kindly point out that I didn't use abusive language or other offensive means against any forum member.
People get stressed because I don't have the same view and opinions as they do, well I'm sorry for that, but we aren't all alike.


Now, back to the fact that started the thread: Why did the team refuel the car knowing that the engine wasn't shut off?

[Knock-on]

The driver was required to stop the engine before that refueling device could be used.
He didn't, for whatever reason.
In this case the team, who knew better than him, or at least should have known better, shouldn't have refueled before they made sure he turned off the engine.

Tell me why do you believe that the team refuel him with the said device even if he didn't switch off the engine?

This is a serious question, so please do answer it.

It isn't a serious question at all.

They made a mistake and got picked up on it. That's all.

Personally, I think it's more of a serious issue you continuously accusing them of cheating. You plainly cannot justify your claim in this thread so perhaps you should save some face and retract it.

[Knock-on]

Because they made a mistake? Or is that too much to accept?

[ioan]

Because they made a mistake? Or is that too much to accept?

Not at all, I can accept all their mistakes, the more the merrier! :D

The question is why was the driver the one blamed and punished and not the team.
being in HK shoes can't be easy at the moment.

PS: After 2 days we are finally getting to the root of the problem.

[Mark]

I think the regulations are that the driver must be in control of the car at all times and since he's in control of the car it is his responsibility to turn off the engine.

Of course any fine is paid by the team not the driver.

[ioan]

I think the regulations are that the driver must be in control of the car at all times and since he's in control of the car it is his responsibility to turn off the engine.

Of course any fine is paid by the team not the driver.

Finally a good explanation! Thanks!

[ArrowsFA1]

Finally a good explanation! Thanks!
I think we'd reached that point by post #4 :s mokin:

[ioan]

I think we'd reached that point by post #4 :s mokin:

No, we didn't.
Article 29.2, referred to by Dave, states:



The driver may remain in his car throughout refuelling but, unless an FIA approved race refuelling system is used, the engine must be stopped.
Race refuelling systems may only be used in the pit lane but may not be used during, or immediately after, any free practice session.
Whilst being used during the qualifying practice session or the race all team personnel working on the car must wear clothing which will protect all parts of their body from fire.


Not the same thing.

[Knock-on]

No, we didn't.
Article 29.2, referred to by Dave, states:




I think we did.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=506867&postcount=53

Everyone else understands why it was Hekki fined as it is his responsibility to be in control of his car and abide by regulations while doing so.

The team didn't do anything wrong but he made a mistake.

Perhaps everyone apart from you understands this basic concept or perhaps you want to drag a trolling thread on, and on, and on.....

[555-04Q2]

If Heikki had been quickest all weekend, qualified on pole, dominated the race, yet still been instructed to gift the race to his team-mate when they were running one-two (and therefore already giving the team the optimum result) in the interests of the championship then perhaps such a comparison could be made.

Letting a teammate past you is letting a teammate past you, no matter how or why it happened. It goes against current team orders rules which were not in place when RB let MS through, but look at the stink that caused in 2002. Why is there no outcry now when a rule has so blatantly been broken :?: :?: :?:

[Knock-on]

Letting a teammate past you is letting a teammate past you, no matter how or why it happened. It goes against current team orders rules which were not in place when RB let MS through, but look at the stink that caused in 2002. Why is there no outcry now when a rule has so blatantly been broken :?: :?: :?:

:rolleyes:

Can you explain what rule you are refering to and how it has been violated?

[555-04Q2]

:rolleyes:

Can you explain what rule you are refering to and how it has been violated?

:)

Letting a teammate through ( c'mon, its obvious HK let him through without trying to resist ) and changing the outcome of a race result ( which did happen as LH went on to win the race ).

I'm all for team orders as I feel F1 is a team sport and the team comes first, but everyone mad a stink when Ferrari did it ( when there was no team orders rule then ) and now it is OK when Mac does it ( and there is a team orders rule now ). Dont sound fair to me.

[pino]

Please continue this in here (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128465&page=4)