PDA

View Full Version : Hockenheim- Ruin of a Great Circuit!!!



mervyn charter
19th July 2008, 06:42
Every Hockenheim Grand Prix now makes me lament as to how Formula One managed to destroy one of its Great Tracks, and change it into basically a Character-less go kart track.

Variety is the spice of life, and the old Hockenheim Track with its long high speed straights cutting through the forest was unlike any other circuit except Spa and Monza which are the last of the `great` formula one tracks.

The Drivers and TV Viewers loved this track where real high-speed overtaking was possible, so why did they ruin it? There was some fantastic races their over the years.

Boring Tracks usually produce Boring Races. It is no coincidence that Barcelona, Magny Cours and Hungary year in year out usually produce the worst races.

ShiftingGears
19th July 2008, 09:38
I think it was because the owners didn't want the safety concerns of having the long tree lined straights where the marshall posts would find it difficult seeing the other marshall posts along the circuit.

In any case, its just your average circuit now.

The contrast between the quiet forest section and the boom of the spectators in the grandstand was great.

Although having said that, I never liked the three chicanes that broke up the flow of the forest section one bit. Not least because it turned what could've been one of the most spectacular corners on the calendar (the Ostkurve) into just another chicane. A bit like the bus stop at Watkins Glen.

ArrowsFA1
19th July 2008, 11:12
I saw a photo of was was the straight leading away from the first turn recently - completely overgrown. The 'old' circuit seems to be slowly disappearing into the undergrowth :(

At least the Jim Clark memorial stone has been tidied up, but still it's sad to see all that history disappearing, like may other circuits that were once a big part of Grand Prix racing.

Powered by Cosworth
19th July 2008, 15:09
I saw a photo of was was the straight leading away from the first turn recently - completely overgrown. The 'old' circuit seems to be slowly disappearing into the undergrowth :(

At least the Jim Clark memorial stone has been tidied up, but still it's sad to see all that history disappearing, like may other circuits that were once a big part of Grand Prix racing.


This photo?

http://www.schuerkamp.de/zope/hoover/racing/2006_jim_clark_revival/images/131_waldgerade.jpg

It's sad they didn't keep the old layout for historic races and such.

wedge
19th July 2008, 15:21
You can't really blame the circuit owner, it's the tree huggers. You're going to have to cut down a hell of amount of trees to get it up to F1 safety standards.

Also very dangerous in the wet. The trees act like walls, the tyres disperse water and there droplets fall off the trees and back onto the track.

Corny
19th July 2008, 15:43
I can't see what was so special about the 'old' circuit.. It were straights and a few chicanes thru a wood, so what? There have been better circuits...

But that's what I think ;)

Tazio
19th July 2008, 16:21
As F1 circuits go, It's near the bottom of my list!

Nikki Katz
19th July 2008, 16:31
I really don't like the new circuit. As much in general I hate losing European races, this would be top of my list to axe, if only so that we got to race at new Nurburgring each year instead, which is still a great track.
Incidentally, Hockenheim are still insisting that they own the rights to the title "German GP", so I guess we could be seeing a Luxembourg GP next year.

wedge
19th July 2008, 16:54
It's a strange track. As dull as it is it produces fantastic races, especially for Button! - came from the middle of the pack in 2004, a great wheel to wheel tussle with Alonso and Schumi a couple of years ago.

gravity
19th July 2008, 19:50
From memory, I recall that the old Hock circuit had to be changed to allow for the new F1 regulations. Extra sandtraps and chicanes would have had to be installed (to the detriment of the trees), and for some reason they rather chose to keep the trees!?

The area the size of 1 football field of trees get razed per second in the Amazon... at that rate, they could have increased the safety levels of the old Hock circuit within 2 mins. Who would have noticed an extra 2 mins of trees missing anyway?
Next thing they're gonna say that F1 cars can't run on rubber tyres unless they're bio-degradable. sigh

Shifter
20th July 2008, 00:55
They could have at least put the Parabolica up where the first chicane used to be. Darn it.

wedge
20th July 2008, 15:54
Another fantastic race.

Sadly the track is forever remembered in the shadow of its former self.

turbo-engine
20th July 2008, 16:06
I live just about 10 miles away from the track, and I have to say I'm so sad about what they did to the track. Thank you F1 for destroying a wonderful race course.

Mikeall
20th July 2008, 18:37
The paying spectators get to see the cars a lot more; 67 compared to 45 which is good but at least the new circuit has more corners as opposed to chicanes. The old circuit was effectively a long drive out into the forest and then a long drive back.

F1boat
20th July 2008, 20:02
I saw a photo of was was the straight leading away from the first turn recently - completely overgrown. The 'old' circuit seems to be slowly disappearing into the undergrowth :(

At least the Jim Clark memorial stone has been tidied up, but still it's sad to see all that history disappearing, like may other circuits that were once a big part of Grand Prix racing.

You are unfortunately right. Something to me in modern F1 is missing - the atmosphere is different now.

keysersoze
20th July 2008, 21:10
A lap at the old Hockenheim was four drag races and too few passing opportunities. This track is much better IMO, particularly for spectators. I wish every course had a flat out sweeper followed by a hairpin.

call_me_andrew
20th July 2008, 22:51
I for one Hockenheim as it is and it's one of my favorite tracks. Would you feel better if they just cut out the stadium section and created paribolica to connect each side of the forrest section?

How is it lacking character? You've got that long parabolica that you know is going to put some g's on the driver. That leads to a tight hairpin where lots of passes get made. Then there's a slightly banked left turn in the stadium section just before several subtle yet fast rights and a double apex right onto the pit straight. Please define character.

wedge
21st July 2008, 00:04
A lap at the old Hockenheim was four drag races and too few passing opportunities. This track is much better IMO, particularly for spectators. I wish every course had a flat out sweeper followed by a hairpin.

It was love-hate track for the drivers. I remember Johnny Herbert saying he never like driving there because all you did was brake and accelerate for 80mins. But those cars were great to watch in the infield because they lacked downforce for the twisty bit and the cars were on a knife edge.


You are unfortunately right. Something to me in modern F1 is missing - the atmosphere is different now.

You would blast into the forest and then suddenly you had the stadium section with all the fans. The stadium retained virtually the same atmosphere when Schumi was still racing on the revised track.


Please define character.

Good old days syndrome

Fans would rather bathe themselves with memories than look to the future.

jens
21st July 2008, 00:25
The new configuration is not bad for racing as we also saw last time around. A lot of fighting for positions and a lot of passes. Hockenheim has been one of the best circuits for overtaking for years.

However, I do miss the old configuration. It was something "special" and different even if long straights may sound boring to some. It was fascinating to watch cars flying on the straights absolutely on the limit speed-wise with very high top speeds and minimum aero. I miss the view.

Shifter
21st July 2008, 04:30
It was fascinating to watch cars flying on the straights absolutely on the limit speed-wise with very high top speeds and minimum aero. I miss the view.

Well they havn't killed Monza...yet. And at least Hockenheim IS still around, I'm not sure they'd give Monza a makeover.

jso1985
21st July 2008, 04:45
I didn't really like the old track, specially since the Ostkurve was just another chicane.

while the new one ain't that great IMO, agree with Andrew, define character, in the end the old Hockenheim produced few classic races(if any). but hey is the good old days sydrome! eveything was better before, I guess it's going to happen to me also when in 20 years I'm gonna be claiming that that new track in Havana ain't as good as the good old Bahrain circuit :eek:

MAX_THRUST
21st July 2008, 09:14
The races have probably been better on the new circuit, and the fans get to see the cars more on it, but the old track was incredible, and was a complete contrast to all the other circuits. The only place similar was Monza.

AussieV8
23rd July 2008, 06:35
This photo?

http://www.schuerkamp.de/zope/hoover/racing/2006_jim_clark_revival/images/131_waldgerade.jpg

It's sad they didn't keep the old layout for historic races and such.

How did it get overgrown like that in just a few years? Did they rip up the bitumen?

I remember watching races on the old circuit. It used to be great to see the cars slipstreaming each other down the straights.

gm99
23rd July 2008, 10:39
How did it get overgrown like that in just a few years? Did they rip up the bitumen?


Yes, AFAIK they totally removed the track surface in the wooden area.
I always wondered why they couldn't keep the original layout in addition to the new parts (just like at the Nürburgring, where you have the short new circuit in addition to the long "Nordschleife"). It might not be save enough for new millenium F1, but it would have done for DTM and long distance races.

As many here have said, the old Hockenheim had a very special feeling that is lost in the new layout. That having been said, I have to admit that the new track usually produces good racing and I actually prefer it to the new Nürburgring, which only has exciting races when it rains...

ArrowsFA1
23rd July 2008, 10:51
I always wondered why they couldn't keep the original layout in addition to the new parts (just like at the Nürburgring, where you have the short new circuit in addition to the long "Nordschleife"). It might not be save enough for new millenium F1, but it would have done for DTM and long distance races.
It worries me that the same fate may befall somewhere like Brands Hatch eventually. The thought of the stretch from Surtees right round to Clearways being overgrown - leaving just the Indy circuit - is a shocker :eek:

Rusty Spanner
23rd July 2008, 12:36
I’d define character as something that is usually acquired over time that is as much about the imperfect traits as good.

In F1’s ever advancing quest to be ‘new and shiny’ it is in danger of loosing things that can’t be replaced. A Grand Prix at Sepang is just another Grand Prix. A Grand Prix at Monza is something more. By almost all quantifiable measures Sepang is a better circuit than Monza but it doesn’t have the history, mystique, character, deaths and ghosts of the Italian temple to speed. Hopefully it never acquires the last two but I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t part of the appeal for me.

Silverstone for all its flaws has a certain something. It was the location of the first world championship Grand Prix and they’ve been holding them there almost uninterrupted ever since. That means something, but you can’t measure it on a balance sheet so F1 is moving on.

This can work the other way as well. When F1 returned to the USA at Indianapolis the race had instant credibility and cachet because it was at Indianapolis. Whilst F1 played no part at all in building the magic of Indy it benefited from being at such an iconic venue – even if it didn’t appear to respect it.

A tennis match is not just another tennis match if it’s played on Centre Court at Wimbledon.

A football match is not just another football match if it’s played at Wembley (but the new stadium is severely testing this)

A game of baseball is not just another game of baseball if it’s played at Yankee Stadium (like Wembley soon to be put to the test).

F1 needs it’s iconic, sacred/special venues. Not everything that is old is good. You have to sacrifice past for the future. But measure twice and cut once. Once it’s gone, it’s gone.

wedge
23rd July 2008, 13:53
I’d define character as something that is usually acquired over time that is as much about the imperfect traits as good.

In F1’s ever advancing quest to be ‘new and shiny’ it is in danger of loosing things that can’t be replaced. A Grand Prix at Sepang is just another Grand Prix. A Grand Prix at Monza is something more. By almost all quantifiable measures Sepang is a better circuit than Monza but it doesn’t have the history, mystique, character, deaths and ghosts of the Italian temple to speed. Hopefully it never acquires the last two but I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t part of the appeal for me.

Silverstone for all its flaws has a certain something. It was the location of the first world championship Grand Prix and they’ve been holding them there almost uninterrupted ever since. That means something, but you can’t measure it on a balance sheet so F1 is moving on.

This can work the other way as well. When F1 returned to the USA at Indianapolis the race had instant credibility and cachet because it was at Indianapolis. Whilst F1 played no part at all in building the magic of Indy it benefited from being at such an iconic venue – even if it didn’t appear to respect it.

A tennis match is not just another tennis match if it’s played on Centre Court at Wimbledon.

A football match is not just another football match if it’s played at Wembley (but the new stadium is severely testing this)

A game of baseball is not just another game of baseball if it’s played at Yankee Stadium (like Wembley soon to be put to the test).

F1 needs it’s iconic, sacred/special venues. Not everything that is old is good. You have to sacrifice past for the future. But measure twice and cut once. Once it’s gone, it’s gone.

That's not character, IMHO, that's Good Old Days Syndrome - like any typical sports fan.

A track with 'character' IMHO are the idiosyncrasies - not just the history but the layout, the challenge it gives to drivers, spectating and so forth.

Hungaroring has a mixed reaction for some fans who thinks it lacks 'character' but now that F1 has raced there for 20 years, doe it not have history? has there not been 'legendary' races there?

Doesn't places like Bahrain and Sepang deserve to have its chance to create history? Just Arsenal fans mourn Highfield and yet a new chapter in their history will be created at the Emirates Stadium.

Yes we should cherish the past, and I agree with the idea of giving Monza, Spa, Monaco, Silverstone special treatment, but we should also look to the future which to some extent of right or wrong Bernie is looking out for.

Rusty Spanner
23rd July 2008, 14:18
That's not character, IMHO, that's Good Old Days Syndrome - like any typical sports fan.

A track with 'character' IMHO are the idiosyncrasies - not just the history but the layout, the challenge it gives to drivers, spectating and so forth..

Yup, agree with all of that.



Hungaroring has a mixed reaction for some fans who thinks it lacks 'character' but now that F1 has raced there for 20 years, doe it not have history? has there not been 'legendary' races there?


Its a fair point. But the track is exactly the sort of slightly worn around the edges venue that F1 has recently been dropping without - it appears - a seconds thought.



Doesn't places like Bahrain and Sepang deserve to have its chance to create history?


Of course they do and chances are due to the law of averages one of F1's newer venues will develop into a classic. Not everything old is worth keeping and not everything new is better. Its a calculated gamble. And when taking a calculated gamble you should factor everything into the equation otherwise its not calculated its just gambling.

wedge
23rd July 2008, 15:22
Its a fair point. But the track is exactly the sort of slightly worn around the edges venue that F1 has recently been dropping without - it appears - a seconds thought.

But its the only track on the calender in the Eastern Europe/former Eastern Bloc. When F1 first went it was treading on new territory at a time when Communism would collapse by the end of the 1980s, just as now motorsport is venturing in the Middle East.

We still visit Interlago - ranked among the worst in terms of infrastructure and yet it serves that particular South American market.

And of course Bernie has his way of doing business.....

call_me_andrew
24th July 2008, 05:20
I’d define character as something that is usually acquired over time that is as much about the imperfect traits as good.

This can work the other way as well. When F1 returned to the USA at Indianapolis the race had instant credibility and cachet because it was at Indianapolis. Whilst F1 played no part at all in building the magic of Indy it benefited from being at such an iconic venue – even if it didn’t appear to respect it.

A game of baseball is not just another game of baseball if it’s played at Yankee Stadium (like Wembley soon to be put to the test).

As I recall, the Indy 500 was a Formula 1 race in the 1950's.

And if you were really familair with baseball, you would not have used Yankee Stadium as an example. Though you did get me thinking about this another way.

During the 1960's and 70's, a lot of American cities determined that it would have been more cost efficent to have one multi-purpose stadium. When these stadiums were first built, they were popular from a technological standpoint; however, they did not age gracefully. In 1992, Oriole Park at Camden Yards was built and that started a trend of building baseball stadiums with early 20th century architecture. Once that stadium was built, multi-purpose stadiums fell out of favor as they "lacked character".

Dave B
24th July 2008, 09:03
This can work the other way as well. When F1 returned to the USA at Indianapolis the race had instant credibility and cachet because it was at Indianapolis. Whilst F1 played no part at all in building the magic of Indy it benefited from being at such an iconic venue – even if it didn’t appear to respect it.
F1 may have gained respect at Indianapolis, but the reverse is not true thanks to that awful mickey mouse infield layout. The venue may have a great history, but the F1 track was a joke.

Craig Lowndes
24th July 2008, 09:16
What they did to the once-great track was an utter disgrace. They butchered it for the sake of spectator suitability and some other lame-arse reasons I don't remember now. At any rate, it was a reprehensible act. The track was once unique, distinguished and got the cars up to massive speeds. Not it's got no character and sucks.

Rusty Spanner
24th July 2008, 09:31
As I recall, the Indy 500 was a Formula 1 race in the 1950's.


It counted towards the World Championship, but it still ran to its own rules independently. Not sure anyone from Europe ever actually bothered to go.




And if you were really familair with baseball, you would not have used Yankee Stadium as an example. Though you did get me thinking about this another way.

I could have picked Wrigley or Fenway and it would have worked just as well. Its about continuity and a connection with the past. Competing on the same field as past heros and legends.

AndyRAC
24th July 2008, 10:31
While the old Hockenheim wasn’t perfect, it was different. The flat out blasts of the forest sections, yet the contrast with the stadium section were the cars struggled for grip in their low downforce settings. Another contrast was that 2 weeks later came Hungary and the complete opposite.
A shame, but also, weren’t other Championships consulted, I;e DTM, etc What if they wanted the old circuit keeping for their Championships. As ever, it seems as if F1 rides roughshod over anybody else. I remember the old 500cc bikes round there, wow, quick!!

Copse
24th July 2008, 14:05
A shame, but also, weren’t other Championships consulted, I;e DTM, etc What if they wanted the old circuit keeping for their Championships.

As far as I can remember, the DTM used the even shorter track when they raced at Hockenheim before the re-design. They turned right just before the current turn 2, went basically straight across, and rejoined the straight from the woods just before the stadium section.

I.e. http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/Germany/hockenheimring94-01s.html

Pole time of just over a minute for Schneider for the 2000 race (from dtm.com) seems to back-up what I remember

call_me_andrew
25th July 2008, 05:20
While the old Hockenheim wasn’t perfect, it was different. The flat out blasts of the forest sections, yet the contrast with the stadium section were the cars struggled for grip in their low downforce settings.

That's pretty much what Indianapolis offered. There's a flat out blast in the oval section and technical section in the infield. Yet that track was considered "Mickey Mouse".

wedge
25th July 2008, 13:17
That's pretty much what Indianapolis offered. There's a flat out blast in the oval section and technical section in the infield. Yet that track was considered "Mickey Mouse".

I used to think the stadium section was mickey mouse.


F1 may have gained respect at Indianapolis, but the reverse is not true thanks to that awful mickey mouse infield layout. The venue may have a great history, but the F1 track was a joke.

But if you took away the controversial races there were still good races, overtaking on the frontstretch into turn1.

I would love to see the current cars race there now, especially the mickey mouse section. People forgot the first few races where cars were sliding around there due to the compromising track.

gm99
27th July 2008, 02:55
As far as I can remember, the DTM used the even shorter track when they raced at Hockenheim before the re-design. They turned right just before the current turn 2, went basically straight across, and rejoined the straight from the woods just before the stadium section.

I.e. http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/Germany/hockenheimring94-01s.html

Pole time of just over a minute for Schneider for the 2000 race (from dtm.com) seems to back-up what I remember

Well, DTM used to hold two race meetings at Hockenheim - one at a shortened track as you pointed out, and one at the full-length circuit: http://www.dtm.com/statistik-rennen.php?rennen=2000-10-29

Miatanut
28th July 2008, 04:18
As many here have said, the old Hockenheim had a very special feeling that is lost in the new layout. That having been said, I have to admit that the new track usually produces good racing and I actually prefer it to the new Nürburgring, which only has exciting races when it rains...

What I think is being lost is the distinction between the European tracks and the North American tracks. The European road racing circuits were either built on public roads, or emulated public roads, so they had very long straights. The North American tracks were typically purpose-built or airport circuits, so they were stop-go-stop-go and a straight of more than 3/4 mile was pretty unusual. The European tracks are gradually changing to that system.

I think the problem comes back to the cars. They have too much power and too much downforce. When I was young, we had dramatic races with less than 500 HP, which worked because the cars weren't pushing so much air around to generate downforce, so the cars also moved around when the drivers were really pushing. If the cars got back to that sort of formula, speeds on the straights would be just as high, but braking zones would get a lot longer and cornering speeds would be lower, so safety would be preserved and in the classic case of a driver not knowing he had a tire that had gone down on the straight, the slower cornering speed would mean a less disastrous result in the corner. The classic European style track could be preserved.

ArrowsFA1
28th July 2008, 09:15
The European road racing circuits were either built on public roads, or emulated public roads, so they had very long straights. The North American tracks were typically purpose-built or airport circuits..
While mainland Europe may have used public roads many post-war British circuits emerged from exiting airfields - Silverstone and Goodwood being examples.

speeddurango
29th July 2008, 10:20
I agree with most most of what gm99 said there, only one thing though, Nurburgring isn't really new, the "new" part been there for more than 30 years now. While it's true the first corner was new but I don't necessarily think it's got a lot to do with overtakings.

gm99
29th July 2008, 11:33
Just to make clear that with "new" I meant the shorter track that was opened in 1984, I think (not quite thirty years yet, but getting there). You're right that's not exactly new, but compared to the "old" Nürburgring (meaning the Nordschleife, which was built in the 1920s), it is relatively new...

mnop901
29th July 2008, 21:41
Among thousands of people, you meet those you’ve met. Through thousands of years, with the boundlessness of time, you happen to meet them, neither earlier nor a bit too late. ________Buy cheap wow gold (http://www.wowgold1000.com/) click here.To buy wow gold (http://www.wowgold1000.com/) on EU Servers just click the link of cheap wow gold (http://www.wowgold1000.com/) EU Servers, 24/7 live support at the same time! We have been a paypal confirmed seller of wow powerleveling (http://www.wowgold1000.com/wow-power-leveling.html) Europe for years. So it is securest and safest to buy Cheap aoc gold (http://www.wowgold1000.com/aoc-gold.html) from us. http://www.wowgold800.com