For our U.S. fans, are we not affected?

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25607845

Food for thought.

[Miatanut]

Sell-out crowd at Silverstone in a place where "petrol" runs over $6.00 a gallon.

If the racing is good, folks will turn out.

[!!WALDO!!]

Sell-out crowd at Silverstone in a place where "petrol" runs over $6.00 a gallon.

If the racing is good, folks will turn out.

So did it make Bernie's nut or not? More spins that Watkins Glen and that was good racing.

Sellout means nothing if the show loses money. Could they put 190,000 in?

[jarrambide]

So did it make Bernie's nut or not? More spins that Watkins Glen and that was good racing.

Sellout means nothing if the show loses money. Could they put 190,000 in?

Sellout means nothing?, wait, wait, the fact that even with tickets that went for around 145 pounds for 3 days (thats almost 300 USD, and those are the cheap seats, other seats went for 189, 209, 245 and 309 pounds, heck, general admission was 109 pounds, 215 USD for general admission tickets) they sold every single ticket means nothing?, you and I have very different perceptions of the world, to me it tells me that their series/brand has lots of fans willing to pay lots of money.

What´s next?, great TV ratings also means nothing?

Maybe as the organizer having a sellout when you don´t make money is not something great, but as a series, if 90,000 fans are willing to pay 109 pounds for general admission and 60,000 fans are willing to pay between 145 and 309 pounds for a seat it means a lot.

Besides, with the fee F1 is charging for a race, you know that it is not about making money for most of the organizers, if you sell every possible ticket (150,000 in the case of Silverstone) well in advance at regular prices, and you sold every possible concession well in advance, and you don´t make any money, you surely knew before organizing the race it was impossible to make a buck.

But regardless of that, 150,000 fans at those prices and every concession sold means nothing? come on, the Nashville race is selling tickets for 45, 55, 65 and 125 USD (less if you are a kid) for the race and 10 and 75 USD for friday, meaning tickets for the whole event would be, 55, 65, 75 and 200 USD, the most expensive tickets for Nashville are 15 USD cheaper than General Admission for Silverstone (and Nashville Superspeedway has a capacity of 50,000 and they still have tickets) and you are telling me that a sellout crowd of 150,000 fans means nothing?, it means a lot.

[jarrambide]

Sell-out crowd at Silverstone in a place where "petrol" runs over $6.00 a gallon.

If the racing is good, folks will turn out.

Silverstone track is in California? :D

[Lousada]

Sellout means nothing?, wait, wait, the fact that even with tickets that went for around 145 pounds for 3 days (thats almost 300 USD, and those are the cheap seats, other seats went for 189, 209, 245 and 309 pounds, heck, general admission was 109 pounds, 215 USD for general admission tickets) they sold every single ticket means nothing?, you and I have very different perceptions of the world, to me it tells me that their series/brand has lots of fans willing to pay lots of money.


Ticket sales go to the promotor. The promotor loses money per definition on a F1 race. The losses are covered by the goverment almost everywhere. So if it's a sellout or not it doesn't matter. The series/brand cares even less about the nuisance of spectators as evidenced by the fact they often race for only 10000 people or so in Asia.
To me, the only thing a F1 sellout means is that people are insane, spending so much on so little.

[mikiec]

Ticket sales go to the promotor. The promotor loses money per definition on a F1 race. The losses are covered by the goverment almost everywhere. So if it's a sellout or not it doesn't matter.

Not in the UK! The British government won't subsidise Silverstone for the British GP and so that's why they've lost it to Donnington.

[beachbum]

Anyone read the title of the post?

"For our U.S. fans, are we not affected?"

I don't thing Waldo was asking about Europe, or why fans spend as much as they do to see the F1 "circus", but how the high fuel prices and weak economy will impact racing in the US.

The answer is duh, of course it will have an impact. Most race tracks are not close to metropolitan areas, so you often have to drive long distances to get there, get an expensive hotel room (often miles away as well) or drag out the gas guzzling RV. Having been in a couple recreational industries, I have seen that many people will give up food before they give up entertainment and toys, but the high prices will deter many. Anyone notice that TV ratings are up while attendance is down? Watching at home isn't the same, but it is a lot cheaper.

The other complication in the US is that there are many entertainment options and most people have a number of activities they enjoy. When times get tough, they may cut out something and choose to skip going to the far away car race and stay home and just watch the home town baseball team.

What isn't known is how bad this has to get to damage the track promoters bottom line enough to cause some to get into financial trouble and possibly close. Racing is a business and we may see some business failures if it gets bad enough. The sanctioning can help with concessions like lower fees, but that can only go so far. Racing recovered after the 70's fuel crisis, but it was changed.

[Bob Riebe]

Racing recovered after the 70's fuel crisis, but it was changed.
If you were an insider maybe, but on the outside oval and road racing did not change.
The high priced motels miles away, is actuaally bs.
Through the eighties and later, I and fellow cohorts, attended races the same way we always had, pitch a tent or find the cheapest closet motel possible, and we WERE NOT RARE. WE were in the crowd that kept comig come hell or high water.

NOW maybe it is the gear-heads, car compentent crowd like us, that US oval and road racing has crapped on.
I quit going because spec. or quasi-spec. racing is a farce. Others merely switched to drag racing where knowledge of mechanical points can still be increased by being there.

Fuel crisis was a farce in the seventies and exists now because most voters are dumb as s--t.

[!!WALDO!!]

Anyone read the title of the post?

"For our U.S. fans, are we not affected?"

I don't thing Waldo was asking about Europe, or why fans spend as much as they do to see the F1 "circus", but how the high fuel prices and weak economy will impact racing in the US.

The answer is duh, of course it will have an impact. Most race tracks are not close to metropolitan areas, so you often have to drive long distances to get there, get an expensive hotel room (often miles away as well) or drag out the gas guzzling RV. Having been in a couple recreational industries, I have seen that many people will give up food before they give up entertainment and toys, but the high prices will deter many. Anyone notice that TV ratings are up while attendance is down? Watching at home isn't the same, but it is a lot cheaper.

The other complication in the US is that there are many entertainment options and most people have a number of activities they enjoy. When times get tough, they may cut out something and choose to skip going to the far away car race and stay home and just watch the home town baseball team.

What isn't known is how bad this has to get to damage the track promoters bottom line enough to cause some to get into financial trouble and possibly close. Racing is a business and we may see some business failures if it gets bad enough. The sanctioning can help with concessions like lower fees, but that can only go so far. Racing recovered after the 70's fuel crisis, but it was changed.

I will be going to Chicagoland in 24 hours, it will be interesting to see how many of the RV spots are empty at $2500.00 per vehicle plus tickets.

[beachbum]

If you were an insider maybe, but on the outside oval and road racing did not change.
The high priced motels miles away, is actuaally bs.
Through the eighties and later, I and fellow cohorts, attended races the same way we always had, pitch a tent or find the cheapest closet motel possible, and we WERE NOT RARE. WE were in the crowd that kept comig come hell or high water.

NOW maybe it is the gear-heads, car compentent crowd like us, that US oval and road racing has crapped on.
I quit going because spec. or quasi-spec. racing is a farce. Others merely switched to drag racing where knowledge of mechanical points can still be increased by being there.

Fuel crisis was a farce in the seventies and exists now because most voters are dumb as s--t.Hilarious

I spent way too many nights at various events sleeping in vans or tents with no hot water and hungry bugs to want to do it anymore. There is nothing quite like sitting in a van just above freezing in a torrential downpour, catching water from a leaking roof in a dirty frying pan, sharing the space with a half dozen of your "closest" friends who haven't had a bath in a couple days, and a portable toilet that is a "bit" full. Been there, done that. At one event camping wasn't allowed, to we stuffed 14 people (male and female) into a tiny $8 a night room with 2 twin beds. I really felt for the guy that got the bathtub, but I had the 8 bucks, so my wife and I got a bed, such as it was. Ah, the good old days.

If that's your thing, great. But a lot of people look for a "campground" with AC and heat, cable TV, restaurant, and real flush toilets. I have been at many tracks were the closest motels were 10 miles or more away and cost an arm, leg, and first born because they were the only game around. For many of us, the choice is watch on tv, dig deep into the pocket, or spend a few days living like a survivalist.

As for the fuel crisis of the 70's, if you lived it, the causes weren't as important as the effects. Odd / even days, no gas at all, and limited purchases. Trips were planned around the dates, and often you would leave on a day where you could get gas, sit in line at almost every station along the way getting whatever you could to keep topped off, then come back in the dead of night just because you had to wait until after midnight to get to "your day". I assure you, at 3:00 am, there aren't many stations open and you stopped at almost every one, hoping for a few gallons. People coped, but all entertainment events suffered greatly, and it wasn't fun.

IMHO, racing is a competition between people who happen to do it with machines, not some technical exercise. Technology is nice (ah, the old Can-Am) but without competition, it is just a fancy parade where the team with the best tool wins, not the people who make the best of the tools they are given. F1 comes to mind - great cars, dull racing.

So please leave the sarcasm somewhere else.

[Chris R]

The price of fuel is not so much an economic issues as it is a psychological issue. My household drives a total of, at most, 30,000 miles a year at an average of 23 mpg or so - that is 1300 gallons of gas. So while I am paying more for gas - it is not going to bankrupt me. However, the cost is now at a point that the use of gasoline factors into decisions we make. We are changing our behavior to minimize our miles on the road. However, if we really want to do something, it is a non-issue. It is the gray areas that the price of gas makes a difference - the gas alone wouldn't make someone change their habits - but it might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back....

That being said, I cannot see how the cost of energy is not going to negatively affect racing. Racing is not an "easy" hobby to take part in as a participant or fan - it falls into a "gray area" that I mentioned above for many people. So given so much competition for the entertainment $$ I would think it will suffer due to the cost of energy.....

[Bob Riebe]

Hilarious


IMHO, racing is a competition between people who happen to do it with machines, not some technical exercise.
So please leave the sarcasm somewhere else.
Sorry I an not a hero worshipping, ala NASCAR type.
Drivers come and go, the cars are the stars.

Sarcasm, hardly but if you want me to I am quite good at it.
Bob
PS--I went throught "gas crisis" and had none of the problems you had; yous was justin ins the wrongs places.

[!!WALDO!!]

It will be interesting to see your report. I'll be at a couple of SCCA events in the next few weeks and I know that the pre entries are way down from where they should be. So it looks like the folks racing on their own nickle are cutting back.

I have been getting reports of car counts down all over at short tracks also.

When that happens a lot less fans. A couple are quietly saying they may shut down and reopen with some specials in the late Summer, early Fall.

[beachbum]

The price of fuel is not so much an economic issues as it is a psychological issue. My household drives a total of, at most, 30,000 miles a year at an average of 23 mpg or so - that is 1300 gallons of gas. So while I am paying more for gas - it is not going to bankrupt me. However, the cost is now at a point that the use of gasoline factors into decisions we make. We are changing our behavior to minimize our miles on the road. However, if we really want to do something, it is a non-issue. It is the gray areas that the price of gas makes a difference - the gas alone wouldn't make someone change their habits - but it might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back....

That being said, I cannot see how the cost of energy is not going to negatively affect racing. Racing is not an "easy" hobby to take part in as a participant or fan - it falls into a "gray area" that I mentioned above for many people. So given so much competition for the entertainment $$ I would think it will suffer due to the cost of energy.....You are correct. If you are driving a 23 MPG car, the hit is more psychological. But if you have an RV getting 6-8 MPG on gas or 10-12 on Diesel, that couple hundred mile round trip to a race can hurt.

But Waldo brings up another aspect. The race teams often travel a lot further than the fans. When I was with a team, it wasn't uncommon to drive 1000 miles one-way. Our tow vehicle got a whooping 5 MPG at best. So, 400 gallons at $4 gal - big hit for an amateur team.

[beachbum]

Sorry I an not a hero worshipping, ala NASCAR type.
Drivers come and go, the cars are the stars."People" is an all encompassing term. I worked on race teams, and the difference between winners and losers were often the people, and often people no one sees, like mechanics, tuners, the guy back in the dyno room, even the team manager. The challenge for the teams was to do a better job that the next group, not outspend them to get the latest "trick" whatever. Teams with the best people often beat teams with better equipment. Race cars come and go and obsolete cars are often considered just junk by a race team. They are just tools to do a job. The throttle jockey was also often thought of as just another piece of equipment that could be replaced with a better model if needed.

I like high tech. If I didn't, I wouldn't have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and work as a software designer. I like neat little wiggets, and marvel at the high tech precision in a series like F1, but watching a dull race with neat equipment is still dull.


Sarcasm, hardly but if you want me to I am quite good at it.
Bob
Obviously


PS--I went throught "gas crisis" and had none of the problems you had; yous was justin ins the wrongs places.Don't know where you were, but the whole east coast suffered. Frankly I don't know of any area in the country that didn't. Some rural areas weren't hit as bad as their usage wasn't very high, but it wasn't uncommon to see closed - no gas signs on stations.

Of course there is the old saying "if you remember the 70's you weren't there". A lot of brain cells died in that era.

[pits4me]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25607845

Food for thought.


I have been getting reports of car counts down all over at short tracks also.

When that happens a lot less fans. A couple are quietly saying they may shut down and reopen with some specials in the late Summer, early Fall.

Attendance isn't the only thing taking a hit right now Waldo. The concessions folks are getting hammered. Merchandise sales are way off. The changes in sponsor-driver-team affiliations are shortchanging licensees, their distribution and sales channels. I spoke with the Motorsports Authentics folks recently. With money tight, risk for bespoke design is very high. That results in lower volume production runs coupled with higher transportation costs from China, Korea, Vietnam and India. Then there's the aggregate licensing mess that makes many items on the fringe of affordable. To try to keep the cost down they compromise on material and overal quality. Not good for the supporters and fans.

Its not that easy to change 1,500 Dale Jr die cast cars from the Bud #8 to ????. Imagine what Home Depot is thinking with Tony Stewart jumping ship in 2009. There's a crap load of Home Depot #20 brandware and brandwear still in the pipeline and it's not selling like it did in 2007.

The writing is on the wall. I hope ICS is watching closely.

[Miatanut]

Anyone read the title of the post?

"For our U.S. fans, are we not affected?"

I don't thing Waldo was asking about Europe, or why fans spend as much as they do to see the F1 "circus", but how the high fuel prices and weak economy will impact racing in the US.


My point was, in a place where gas costs more than 50% more than in the US, we just saw a packed house. If the show is great, people will make it a priority. If the show is not so hot, they've got other things to do.

Do I think it will effect American open wheel? Absolutely! Would it if American open wheel was putting on a compelling show? Not so much.

And, yes, Bernie is laughing all the way to the bank.

[!!WALDO!!]

My point was, in a place where gas costs more than 50% more than in the US, we just saw a packed house. If the show is great, people will make it a priority. If the show is not so hot, they've got other things to do.

Do I think it will effect American open wheel? Absolutely! Would it if American open wheel was putting on a compelling show? Not so much.

And, yes, Bernie is laughing all the way to the bank.

The Chicagoland NASCAR races, yes both had what Silverstone had for two days and made what Silverstone paid Bernie.

Bernie maybe laughing to the Bank but the people putting up the Money are not. They are actually more important than Bernie because they can walk away.

[NickFalzone]

A few things to note in this conversation:

NASCAR race attendance is down
NASCAR merchandise is down
NASCAR tv ratings are up

IndyCar race attendance is up
IndyCar merchandise (supposedly) is up 70%
IndyCar ratings are up

Not really suggesting anything with these notes, other than the fact that the sky is not falling. The only area that I see a real weakness is sponsorships. In NASCAR especially, this now a significant issue. Seems to be less so in IndyCar. Not sure about team sponsors, but of course the league seems to be adding new minor sponsors every few weeks.

[!!WALDO!!]

A few things to note in this conversation:

NASCAR race attendance is down
NASCAR merchandise is down
NASCAR tv ratings are up

IndyCar race attendance is up
IndyCar merchandise (supposedly) is up 70%
IndyCar ratings are up

Not really suggesting anything with these notes, other than the fact that the sky is not falling. The only area that I see a real weakness is sponsorships. In NASCAR especially, this now a significant issue. Seems to be less so in IndyCar. Not sure about team sponsors, but of course the league seems to be adding new minor sponsors every few weeks.


Not this weekend as far as NASCAR was concerned. Only 10 open RV spots so about $30,000 in loss revenue but infield was up by $25,000 for the weekend so down $5,000.
Rube Row was full and many many full bags.

[Nethead]

Sorry I an not a hero worshipping, ala NASCAR type.
Drivers come and go, the cars are the stars.

Sarcasm, hardly but if you want me to I am quite good at it.
Bob
PS--I went throught "gas crisis" and had none of the problems you had; yous was justin ins the wrongs places.

I side with Bob here--automobile racing is about the vehicles. Sure, there are legendary competitors in every category & subcategory of racing--the Parnellis, the AJs, the Jackies, the Big Daddies, the King Richards--but they're famous for how fast they are in vehicles, not for how fast they are running on their own two legs! Track & Field events have their own heroes...

Sure, a great pit crew and great mechanics go a long way towards how fast a vehicle is as well as towards how fast a driver is--not to mention sponsorship money to hire the best people, buy the best parts, yada yada yada. But automobile racing--or the racing of anything mechanical (be it yachts, motorcycles, aircraft, go-karts, ORVs, whatever)--is about the machines foremost and other considerations are generally secondary. If it's your living, or some member(s) of your family is taking big risks to race automobiles/aircraft/motorcycles/whatever, then your perspective is naturally quite different, but I am talkin' about those who have no personal interest in those driving or crewing the vehicles. That's most of us, as can be easily determined by comparing the number of people in the grandstands to the number of people in the garage area and in the pits.

I loved to see Parnelli win as much as anyone, but I wouldn't have traveled to the end of the street to see Parnelli take on AJ, Jackie, Big Daddy, and King Richard in a foot race! Would you?

[!!WALDO!!]

I side with Bob here--automobile racing is about the vehicles. Sure, there are legendary competitors in every category & subcategory of racing--the Parnellis, the AJs, the Jackies, the Big Daddies, the King Richards--but they're famous for how fast they are in vehicles, not for how fast they are running on their own two legs! Track & Field events have their own heroes...

Sure, a great pit crew and great mechanics go a long way towards how fast a vehicle is as well as towards how fast a driver is--not to mention sponsorship money to hire the best people, buy the best parts, yada yada yada. But automobile racing--or the racing of anything mechanical (be it yachts, motorcycles, aircraft, go-karts, ORVs, whatever)--is about the machines foremost and other considerations are generally secondary. If it's your living, or some member(s) of your family is taking big risks to race automobiles/aircraft/motorcycles/whatever, then your perspective is naturally quite different, but I am talkin' about those who have no personal interest in those driving or crewing the vehicles. That's most of us, as can be easily determined by comparing the number of people in the grandstands to the number of people in the garage area and in the pits.

I loved to see Parnelli win as much as anyone, but I wouldn't have traveled to the end of the street to see Parnelli take on AJ, Jackie, Big Daddy, and King Richard in a foot race! Would you?


People came to see the drivers. If you attended a Hoosier 100 in the 1960s you would realize this.

CART was the concept that put TEAMS ahead of TALENT and look what it got them.

Oh BTW there were 30,000 at the Indiana State Fairgrounds in 1964 to see Parnelli race A.J. in a Harness race. The race was to be a tie but both horses got slapped bad and Foyt won.

I guess many traveled to the end of the street, huh?

[Chris R]

I do not think CART put the teams before the talent - the drivers were well promoted and were definitely "heroes" it got a little more difficult after the split - but until 1997 or so it was pretty driver centered... Mears, Rahal, Sullivan, Andretti(s), Unser(s), Zanardi, Tracy, Fittipaldi - all these guys were pretty well known to varying degrees even to a larger audience... I think ride "buyership" is what took the focus off the drivers because it destroyed continuity and this affected both AOWR series adversely...

Racing is about man (and woman) and machine - too much focus on either is not good for the sport - this is about people and technology - on paper AOWR should be a slam-dunk sport for today's consumer......

[!!WALDO!!]

Twenty years of great racing, heavy sponsor involvement, fan interest, high profile drivers and the second best OW series in the world? ;)

Just because the owners committed fowlicide on the goose trying to get to the golden eggs, don't dis the series itself.


Really, 65% of those sponsorship dollars went to a race they didn't sanction. When given the chance they turned their back on it.

So what did it get them and those fans? Marco Greco for Rick Mears.

There is the reason NASCAR got the jump they did.

[!!WALDO!!]

- on paper AOWR should be a slam-dunk sport for today's consumer......

I have talked to today's consumer and they can't relate to this product, tomorrow, today or yesterday. They have never seen a car in a driveway or on the highway.

The important thing to realize is that 99% of this Nation drives but only 2% are race fans. Thus we are talking to very few ears.

[garyshell]

Twenty years of great racing, heavy sponsor involvement, fan interest, high profile drivers and the second best OW series in the world? ;)

Just because the owners committed fowlicide on the goose trying to get to the golden eggs, don't dis the series itself.


Really, 65% of those sponsorship dollars went to a race they didn't sanction. When given the chance they turned their back on it.

So what did it get them and those fans? Marco Greco for Rick Mears.

There is the reason NASCAR got the jump they did.


Exactly which part of "Just because the owners committed fowlicide on the goose trying to get to the golden eggs, don't dis the series itself." didn't you understand???

Gary

[garyshell]

I have talked to today's consumer and they can't relate to this product, tomorrow, today or yesterday. They have never seen a car in a driveway or on the highway.


You really do need to slow down and read what you are writing. Recently you asked for examples of your incoherent writing from Jose, well here lies a PERFECT example.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

You really do need to slow down and read what you are writing. Recently you asked for examples of your incoherent writing from Jose, well here lies a PERFECT example.

Gary

It was English but I guess I missed something.

[!!WALDO!!]

Exactly which part of "Just because the owners committed fowlicide on the goose trying to get to the golden eggs, don't dis the series itself." didn't you understand???

Gary


He maybe talking about 1994 or later when reality should have set in when the egos got really too big on their 6th brithday. From that point on they listen to nobody except themselves.

This the formation of the cancer. Exactly which part of the history didn't you understand???

I used to get paid in those days to plant flowers for CART and soon they didn't need them.

Did you ever talk to fans about CART in the 1980s? I did and 9 out of 10 racing fans did not know CART but knew the names Foyt, Andretti, Mears, Sneva, Johncock, Al Unser, Danny Sullivan and Bobby Rahal all from the 500 and no where else.

The T in CART stands for TEAMS.

[garyshell]

I have talked to today's consumer and they can't relate to this product, tomorrow, today or yesterday. They have never seen a car in a driveway or on the highway.


You really do need to slow down and read what you are writing. Recently you asked for examples of your incoherent writing from Jose, well here lies a PERFECT example.

Gary


It was English but I guess I missed something.


Yep, I guess you did. Does the underlining help at all??? And we'll just let your delusion that your little chats with the fans in some way constitutes any sort of scientific survey just slide right on by.

Gary

[garyshell]

He maybe talking about 1994 or later when reality should have set in when the egos got really too big on their 6th brithday. From that point on they listen to nobody except themselves.

This the formation of the cancer. Exactly which part of the history didn't you understand???

I used to get paid in those days to plant flowers for CART and soon they didn't need them.

Did you ever talk to fans about CART in the 1980s? I did and 9 out of 10 racing fans did not know CART but knew the names Foyt, Andretti, Mears, Sneva, Johncock, Al Unser, Danny Sullivan and Bobby Rahal all from the 500 and no where else.

The T in CART stands for TEAMS.

"He maybe talking about"???? Are you back to mind reading again? (Oh by the way it is "may be" not "maybe", but as an English teacher you already knew that, right?) He said the owners screwed the pooch. What else do you want to hear, besides your own incessant yammering?

Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

Gary

[Chris R]

He maybe talking about 1994 or later when reality should have set in when the egos got really too big on their 6th brithday. From that point on they listen to nobody except themselves.

This the formation of the cancer. Exactly which part of the history didn't you understand???

I used to get paid in those days to plant flowers for CART and soon they didn't need them.

Did you ever talk to fans about CART in the 1980s? I did and 9 out of 10 racing fans did not know CART but knew the names Foyt, Andretti, Mears, Sneva, Johncock, Al Unser, Danny Sullivan and Bobby Rahal all from the 500 and no where else.

I really think it matter what circle of people you were in as to what these names were known from...

There is no doubt Indy was the BIG draw - but I knew more than a few people who knew who they were in general - now granted they were "indycar" drivers - but there was still an awareness of races beyond Indy - at least in the very un-racing circle of people I knew.... for example- more than a few people thought it was cool the same cars that ran at Indy on the streets of Long Beach...... since I was a teenager there were more than a few people who talked about how cool it would be to race through the streets of philadelphia... when the race came to the meadowlands in 1984 there was buzz even in south jersey....

I am not questioning the role of the Indy 500 as the pinnacle of the sport and the pinnacle by a wide margin - but i think the rest of the series was much healthier in its hey-day than it is given credit for now in the wake of the going public/CCWS fiasco.... If nothing else, the rest of the series bought the drivers of the Indy 500 closer to the masses - it was a very synergistic relationship and the entire sport grew....

[!!WALDO!!]

Yep, I guess you did. Does the underlining help at all??? And we'll just let your delusion that your little chats with the fans in some way constitutes any sort of scientific survey just slide right on by.

Gary

They--Means Today's consumer.
have never seen---Not viewed or haven't seen
a car---- Since we are talking about OPEN WHEEL racing and the things driven in Open Wheel racing are cars one must expect a person to use logic.


in a driveway or on the highway.--- Places were today's consumers see car that they drive.

Would this help? They have never seen a Dallara/G-Force/Lola/Reynard/Swift/March/Penske in a driveway or on the highway.

Nitpicking or not following along.

Notice I rarely post to you because I do not want to have anything to do with you. Sorry this is why.

[!!WALDO!!]

I really think it matter what circle of people you were in as to what these names were known from...

There is no doubt Indy was the BIG draw - but I knew more than a few people who knew who they were in general - now granted they were "indycar" drivers - but there was still an awareness of races beyond Indy - at least in the very un-racing circle of people I knew.... for example- more than a few people thought it was cool the same cars that ran at Indy on the streets of Long Beach...... since I was a teenager there were more than a few people who talked about how cool it would be to race through the streets of philadelphia... when the race came to the meadowlands in 1984 there was buzz even in south jersey....

I am not questioning the role of the Indy 500 as the pinnacle of the sport and the pinnacle by a wide margin - but i think the rest of the series was much healthier in its hey-day than it is given credit for now in the wake of the going public/CCWS fiasco.... If nothing else, the rest of the series bought the drivers of the Indy 500 closer to the masses - it was a very synergistic relationship and the entire sport grew....

When they went away from tracks with history and went to the Meadowlands was because they wanted to go into the NYC market. The show lost fist fulls of money and CART when it was done moved on.

The ARS Series over the CART B was a fatal mistake. The concept of bring drivers, car owners and mechanics into the CART family was flawed because it cost 40% of a CART budget for 20% of the money. Once again it broke those wanting to play.

CART from 1979 on left miles and miles of bones of the people that took from and left beside the road. What broke them was the history as nobody wanted to play with them as they could not be trusted.

Sport grew? In 1995 a TNN Rockingham race had a higher rating than the first 3 CART races. Nobody had the The Nashville Network. When it came out Adam Saal said it was just a clitch and meant nothing. That year, NASCAR out did CART and CART was on ABC and NASCAR was on 6 networks. Only Indy was a winner.

No we can look back with Rose Colored glasses at the thought of what once was but us in the trenches and in the stands and in some cases behind the scenes saw the real stuff. It wasn't something that rose colored glasses could correct.

[Chris R]

I cannot speak to the entire business model of CART and I know the Meadowlands was a bust - but I can speak to the fan interest in the diverse offerings of CART - at least for a time....

Generally speaking, I agree with your point on all of this - I just tend to think that AOWR has survived since the 1920's (the dawn of the automotive age) in spite of itself not because of any great vision, leadership or virtue. I think CART was a continuation of that tradition and that while it may have had different movers and shakers , it was not all that different from the past and it does not appear as though the IRL has done significantly better job - it is just at a different point of the success/failure arc right now.

I would say the lone example of prolonged success in AOWR has been Tony Hulman/IMS from 1946-1977 - but obviously upon his passing the respect he commanded did not pass to his successors and here we are today.....

I think it is fair to argue that the Indy 500,CART, and AOWR peaked together somewhere around ( I am picking a fairly random date - move it either way 3 years) 1985. The spin and win was spectacular and a "made for media" event. The cars were fast and pretty. There were still remnants of some diversity(albeit fleeting by 1985). The names were familiar. The world was not yet over- saturated by cable TV and the internet and extreme sports. In that year they were still pretty big fish in the sports entertainment pond. Since then the "pond" has been growing much faster than the AOWR fish and the pond is very crowded with other fish roughly the same size or larger.

Anyway, it seems like everyone wants to take side between Indy vs. CART vs. USAC vs. IRL - as far as I am concerned they have all been managed very poorly with few exceptions......

[!!WALDO!!]

I cannot speak to the entire business model of CART and I know the Meadowlands was a bust - but I can speak to the fan interest in the diverse offerings of CART - at least for a time....

Yes and most shows were busts like Las Vegas and such but no one saved the promoter, they just moved on. When they ran out of promoters they had to prop them up and this caused money to fly away.


Generally speaking, I agree with your point on all of this - I just tend to think that AOWR has survived since the 1920's (the dawn of the automotive age) in spite of itself not because of any great vision, leadership or virtue. I think CART was a continuation of that tradition and that while it may have had different movers and shakers , it was not all that different from the past and it does not appear as though the IRL has done significantly better job - it is just at a different point of the success/failure arc right now.

Actually 70,000 at a Board track was an accomplishment as the roads getting their were bad.

Once the Car owners set the rules the game was up. Waldo's number one rule is: It is the job of all car owners to eliminate competition. With that we turn over the rules to the people wanting to eliminate competition. Flawed from the start.


I would say the lone example of prolonged success in AOWR has been Tony Hulman/IMS from 1946-1977 - but obviously upon his passing the respect he commanded did not pass to his successors and here we are today.....

It was good but not great. There has always been this disconnect with the people, yes the cars look cool as models but they never saw one.


I think it is fair to argue that the Indy 500,CART, and AOWR peaked together somewhere around ( I am picking a fairly random date - move it either way 3 years) 1985. The spin and win was spectacular and a "made for media" event. The cars were fast and pretty. There were still remnants of some diversity(albeit fleeting by 1985). The names were familiar. The world was not yet over- saturated by cable TV and the internet and extreme sports. In that year they were still pretty big fish in the sports entertainment pond. Since then the "pond" has been growing much faster than the AOWR fish and the pond is very crowded with other fish roughly the same size or larger.

1985 is the year and the hand writing was Bill Elliott pulling into Victory Lane on Labor Day Weekend and getting $1,000,000. There was miles of news and it remained that way while CART faded from the headlines even though Al beat Al Jr by one point, nothing gained and all was lost.


Anyway, it seems like everyone wants to take side between Indy vs. CART vs. USAC vs. IRL - as far as I am concerned they have all been managed very poorly with few exceptions......

Without a doubt. A dictator is needed otherwise the inmates run the prison. Old old man France talked about that 40 plus years ago. "Don't like what we are doing there is ARCA, IMCA and USAC to run, otherwise you do what we say."

See there has been many great experiments tried over the years and all of them haven't worked in the long run. In my day, there were many car owners concerned with the direction of CART and they all left. You win with ADDITION and LOSE with Subtraction.

Oh well, such is life.

[!!WALDO!!]

Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

Gary

Ten fans wearing Rubeware in a Bar in a town were 7 Indy car drivers came from and only 1 knows about CART and were two of the seven drivers were racing. How REAL do you want it?

Done yammmering with you for good. Thank you and good bye.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125602

English for you....

[garyshell]

Did YOU ever conduct a REAL survey to back up your ridiculous assertion as fact that 9 out of 10 fans knew or didn't know something?

Gary


Ten fans wearing Rubeware in a Bar in a town were 7 Indy car drivers came from and only 1 knows about CART and were two of the seven drivers were racing. How REAL do you want it?


Just as I suspected. The answer was no.

Gary

[Miatanut]

Twenty years of great racing, heavy sponsor involvement, fan interest, high profile drivers and the second best OW series in the world? ;)

Just what I was thinking!

Mercedes against Ford against Honda against Toyota at the peak, with Reynard against Lola against Penske against Eagle (and Swift? don't remember if Penske, Eagle and Swift all ran at the same time), and Goodyear against Firestone (or was it Bridgestone?).

Most any automotive, beer (and tobacco), and many household products plastered on the cars at the same time.

Pre-qualifying at several of the races (half of them, one year, really!), with teams going home because they didn't make the show at a race other than Indy.

The good old days, sniff! :(

[Cart750hp]

I do not think CART put the teams before the talent - the drivers were well promoted and were definitely "heroes" it got a little more difficult after the split - but until 1997 or so it was pretty driver centered... Mears, Rahal, Sullivan, Andretti(s), Unser(s), Zanardi, Tracy, Fittipaldi - all these guys were pretty well known to varying degrees even to a larger audience... I think ride "buyership" is what took the focus off the drivers because it destroyed continuity and this affected both AOWR series adversely...

You nailed it right, Chris. The teams and especially the series "HAD" to tolerate ride-buyers because the darn series was losing so much money and the teams were in deep financial trouble without the ride-buyers. After the management didn't have a plan B to rescue the series, obviously, it was all too late. Now that everyone are under one roof, I just hope that TG will prevent this "Champ-Car plague" from happening in the series. And TG should start from Conquest.

[Chris R]

You nailed it right, Chris. The teams and especially the series "HAD" to tolerate ride-buyers because the darn series was losing so much money and the teams were in deep financial trouble without the ride-buyers. After the management didn't have a plan B to rescue the series, obviously, it was all too late. Now that everyone are under one roof, I just hope that TG will prevent this "Champ-Car plague" from happening in the series. And TG should start from Conquest.

I don't think TG will fix it because the IRL was/is just as bad or worse - Buzz Calkins, & Marty Roth are perfect "bookends" for that argument....

[nigelred5]

Anyone read the title of the post?

"For our U.S. fans, are we not affected?"

I don't thing Waldo was asking about Europe, or why fans spend as much as they do to see the F1 "circus", but how the high fuel prices and weak economy will impact racing in the US.

The answer is duh, of course it will have an impact. Most race tracks are not close to metropolitan areas, so you often have to drive long distances to get there, get an expensive hotel room (often miles away as well) or drag out the gas guzzling RV. Having been in a couple recreational industries, I have seen that many people will give up food before they give up entertainment and toys, but the high prices will deter many. Anyone notice that TV ratings are up while attendance is down? Watching at home isn't the same, but it is a lot cheaper.

The other complication in the US is that there are many entertainment options and most people have a number of activities they enjoy. When times get tough, they may cut out something and choose to skip going to the far away car race and stay home and just watch the home town baseball team.

What isn't known is how bad this has to get to damage the track promoters bottom line enough to cause some to get into financial trouble and possibly close. Racing is a business and we may see some business failures if it gets bad enough. The sanctioning can help with concessions like lower fees, but that can only go so far. Racing recovered after the 70's fuel crisis, but it was changed.

Anyone that has been to a Nascar event knows how many RV's are usually surrounding any given track, especially in the east. Hell, It would have cost me about $150 in gas in my VW wagon just to go to the IRL race at Richmond. Has anyone pulled up to the pump in a Class A motorhome or a 1 ton truck/SUV lately? My neighbor's Class A carries 200 gallons of diesel, x $4.85/gallon (this week) x 8 mpg his best average he has told me.
The closest race to here is Dover 60 miles away. then run a generator most of the weekend. I know that he usually attends Charlotte, Bristol, Talladega and Daytona in addition to both weekends at Richmond, Dover, and Pocono each season. Do the math. His RV hasn't moved since July of last year when He went to Pocono.He used to attend at least 8-10 race weekends a year. That's 4 seats, usually three races a weekend just 1 family. Definitely the price of fuel is affecting attendance and he's not a rich guy, he's just a very typical hard working race fan and average hourly type guy. People are having problems dealing with the price of fuel just getting to work. Of course it's affecting people's habits.

We added a person to our car pool last week to offset the increase in commuting costs.

[nigelred5]

The price of fuel is not so much an economic issues as it is a psychological issue. My household drives a total of, at most, 30,000 miles a year at an average of 23 mpg or so - that is 1300 gallons of gas. So while I am paying more for gas - it is not going to bankrupt me. However, the cost is now at a point that the use of gasoline factors into decisions we make. We are changing our behavior to minimize our miles on the road. However, if we really want to do something, it is a non-issue. It is the gray areas that the price of gas makes a difference - the gas alone wouldn't make someone change their habits - but it might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back....

That being said, I cannot see how the cost of energy is not going to negatively affect racing. Racing is not an "easy" hobby to take part in as a participant or fan - it falls into a "gray area" that I mentioned above for many people. So given so much competition for the entertainment $$ I would think it will suffer due to the cost of energy.....


I'll chime in on that. My household drives just about double that. My wife and I each drive about 40 miles one way, in opposite directions. I already carpool, she works over nights so it's not an option. She switched to 4 10's, I can't because I wouldn't be able to get home befire she has to leave for work and daycare from 6:00 to 7:00 is kinda hard to find. Add to the gasoline the effect the 200% increase in Natural gas and energy de-regulation has had on my gas and natural gas generated electric utility bill has had, then the inflation caused throughout the country due to increased transportation costs. It is 100% affecting my choices, like 100% eliminating going out for a meal, not even putting my boat in the water this summer,changing what we buy at the grocerty store, even riding a scooter to the store for the $4.65 gallon of milk, and cutting back to bare basic cable television to the tune ofg $9.99 a month. Energy costs directly now account for 52%of my monthly budget with a lousy 2% COLA in the last two years. i have no credit card debt and only 1 car payment and a reasonable mortgage. No mc mansion payments.

I can't watch a race on TV most of the time now because so many are now on cable, let alone attend one. I'm going to a flat track motorcycle race this evening simply because it's a mile from work, my friend lets me in as a pit crewmember and I can just stay after work. If I had to drive back down here, I couldn't justify it.

And I can tell you, I'm far from alone where I work and we supposedly live in an area where the economy is "strong" because so many of us work for the government. Times are a lot tougher for a lot of people with very good jobs than even the most liberal media even admits.

[!!WALDO!!]

Anyone that has been to a Nascar event knows how many RV's are usually surrounding any given track, especially in the east. Hell, It would have cost me about $150 in gas in my VW wagon just to go to the IRL race at Richmond. Has anyone pulled up to the pump in a Class A motorhome or a 1 ton truck/SUV lately? My neighbor's Class A carries 200 gallons of diesel, x $4.85/gallon (this week) x 8 mpg his best average he has told me.
The closest race to here is Dover 60 miles away. then run a generator most of the weekend. I know that he usually attends Charlotte, Bristol, Talladega and Daytona in addition to both weekends at Richmond, Dover, and Pocono each season. Do the math. His RV hasn't moved since July of last year when He went to Pocono.He used to attend at least 8-10 race weekends a year. That's 4 seats, usually three races a weekend just 1 family. Definitely the price of fuel is affecting attendance and he's not a rich guy, he's just a very typical hard working race fan and average hourly type guy. People are having problems dealing with the price of fuel just getting to work. Of course it's affecting people's habits.

We added a person to our car pool last week to offset the increase in commuting costs.

Good to get back on topic.

[!!WALDO!!]

You nailed it right, Chris. The teams and especially the series "HAD" to tolerate ride-buyers because the darn series was losing so much money and the teams were in deep financial trouble without the ride-buyers. After the management didn't have a plan B to rescue the series, obviously, it was all too late. Now that everyone are under one roof, I just hope that TG will prevent this "Champ-Car plague" from happening in the series. And TG should start from Conquest.

If you had a season sponsor you had to pay 20% of that money to CART for race promotions.

If you had a race to race sponsor deal you had to pay NOTHING to CART for race promotions.

Most of you guys saw a patient that was dying of cancer, I worked and saw it before that cancer took hold.

Now this is about how much gas prices are going to affect race crowds.

Mid-Ohio will be down 10%.

[Miatanut]

If the show is good, people will make it a priority. Hence the packed house at Silverstone in a place where gas costs more than $6.00 a gallon. If the show is not so good, they won't. In 1973, when times were similar to now, Indy had a packed house.

[!!WALDO!!]

If the show is good, people will make it a priority. Hence the packed house at Silverstone in a place where gas costs more than $6.00 a gallon. If the show is not so good, they won't. In 1973, when times were similar to now, Indy had a packed house.

Bet it won't be next weekend. No this is getting real bad and with possible Bank failures we are looking at about 1932.

[Lousada]

If the show is good, people will make it a priority. Hence the packed house at Silverstone in a place where gas costs more than $6.00 a gallon. If the show is not so good, they won't. In 1973, when times were similar to now, Indy had a packed house.

Right, your anti-TG agenda shows again. Saying 1973 is similar to 2008 is so far off the planet it's just crazy. Just some points: back then there were no:
- 200 tv channels
- 16 LIVE Indycar races with the top Indy drivers, with plenty in the midwest
- 38 LIVE Nascar races
- Full seasons of any sports broadcasted live
- internet
- mobile phones
- playstations
- 1000's of other pasttimes easily accesible
- and so on so on

Your other comparison off the F1 audience with the Indycar audience is so off base I don't even want to argue it with you.

[Miatanut]

Right, your anti-TG agenda shows again. Saying 1973 is similar to 2008 is so far off the planet it's just crazy. Just some points: back then there were no:
- 200 tv channels
- 16 LIVE Indycar races with the top Indy drivers, with plenty in the midwest
- 38 LIVE Nascar races
- Full seasons of any sports broadcasted live
- internet
- mobile phones
- playstations
- 1000's of other pasttimes easily accesible
- and so on so on

Your other comparison off the F1 audience with the Indycar audience is so off base I don't even want to argue it with you.
I would have to agree with you. F1 is high-tech and attracts lots of fans who are millionaires. Indycar, well.....let's just say the fan profile has changed a bit from the CART fan profile of the early '90's.

[Mark in Oshawa]

First off, the reason F1 draws so well in Britain is that within 3 hours drive of the track, 30 Million people can be there easily. Also, They all drive out the day of the race. Not many RV's in Britain. So the higher fuel prices may not have the same effect. Also note, the price of Fuel has gone up a lot in North America, but with the strength of the Euro, they have been insulated by the higher prices. The US dollar dropped and THAT is part of the effect of the price of oil. The price of oil is up in US dollars because the US dollar is worth less on the world market. Therefore Fuel prices are causing much of the pain in the US that isn't been felt in Europe.

Another note. F1 draws from the Continent as well and because of the dense population in Europe, the travel costs are less because the distances between races are less. All in all, to say racing in Europe isn't effected by the oil crisis isn't true, the effects are less because they have been dealing in an economy where 5 and 6 dollar a gallon fuel has been part of the landscape for some time. They have adapted. Americans are finding out (Canadians to a lesser extent) that they have not been paying maybe what the rest of the world has been and all the sudden that RV isn't the value buy it once was.

The IRL and NASCAR, not to mention ALMS or any one of the other many series criss crossing the continent have to contend with higher fuel costs to move the circus from town to town. (1000 bucks to fill your typical big rig to go about 1300 miles). The teams are feeling the higher costs, the fans are, and the economy is slowing and psychologically people are a little nervous spending the money. So for a while, until people adjust, attendance may drop. That said, put a good product on the track and people will watch, just maybe on TV. I think in time, it will all balance out. I think people are just realizing the world has changed a little...and I think for many people in North America, it is a tough dose or reality. Europe has lived with these higher fuel prices all along....

[Easy Drifter]

Mark: Welcome back! I just posted in Chit Chat today wondering where you were. You have some of the most well thought out and lucid posts on this forum.

[Rex Monaco]

No this is getting real bad and with possible Bank failures we are looking at about 1932.

It's more like 1986-1991 when 747 Savings and Loans failed because they made risky real estate loans and new housing starts fell to their lowest since WWII. But I seriously doubt that 747 banks will fail this time around.

[nigelred5]

It's more like 1986-1991 when 747 Savings and Loans failed because they made risky real estate loans and new housing starts fell to their lowest since WWII. But I seriously doubt that 747 banks will fail this time around.


Got popcorn?

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

I've got an active watchlist of the top 100 banks at work showig their capitlaization ratings and a few other factors. Actually some fairly large well known institutions arepretty high on the current danger list.