Too many Yellows !!!

[mervyn charter]

Yesterdays race was in my view spoiled by all these caution periods that completely disjointed the second half of the race.

Indy Car must take a leaf out of Formula One`s Book. Yesterday`s dramatic wet British Grand Prix did not have one single caution period, despite cars going off the track at regular intervals.

These Cautions reward mediocity and in yesterdays British GP race, could have nullified the numerous errors by Massa and Raikkonen, and kept Massa undeservedly on the same lap.

[NickFalzone]

Someone in another thread mentioned that the issue is liability. In other countries you are not as at risk of a lawsuit as in the U.S. That's certainly part of the problem and why Barnhart is overly cautious. But they seem to be really overdoing it this year, both on the ovals and road courses. Getting the wrecks off the track faster would at least be a start.

[underpowered]

Yesterdays race was in my view spoiled by all these caution periods that completely disjointed the second half of the race.

Indy Car must take a leaf out of Formula One`s Book. Yesterday`s dramatic wet British Grand Prix did not have one single caution period, despite cars going off the track at regular intervals.

These Cautions reward mediocity and in yesterdays British GP race, could have nullified the numerous errors by Massa and Raikkonen, and kept Massa undeservedly on the same lap.

I agree. F1 know how to clear a crashed race car quickly. whats wrong with local yellows in Indycar?

Several laps of yellow cause the tyres to cool down and create more accidents

[gofastandwynn]

I think more of the issue is the lack of cranes to remove cars over hers in the states. You can't just have 2 guys out there to hook up a car and move it, you have to take a truck with 3-4 guys, which not puts more corse workers in danger as well as posing a threat to cars on track. Plus an american racing mentality to throw a full course caution when a car hits the wall and not as much runoff areas. I think it would be wise for the league to invest in some cranes to clear an accident quicker.

Looking at the Glen, the only caution I think that could be avoided was Bernoldi in turn one. The other accidents would have required putting someone directly on track in a dangerous area.

[indycool]

More importantly, as was the case at Richmond, some of the accidents were avoidable, as Dixon admitted to in his case.

On a road course, the trucks hafta go a long way to get to an accident scene and there are just so many places to get a car out of harm's way. If it got there in the first place, another car could, too. And on a street course, there's practically nowhere to dump it.

Not the best race....or the best driver judgment.....but that should be different as we go along......every now and then, this kind of thing happens in any series....like Daytona Saturday night.

[Chamoo]

Especially at Watkins Glen where there is not much room in many place between the armco and the track.

[bravefish]

Lots of yellows are just part of it - with more cars theres going to be more yellows period. I bet if they started throwing local and double waved yellows all the time viewers would start whinging that its a procession like Formula 1. To reduce full course yellows too much will take out a lot of the strategy game as well, which would be detrimental to the sport.

[Lousada]

Looking at the Glen, the only caution I think that could be avoided was Bernoldi in turn one. The other accidents would have required putting someone directly on track in a dangerous area.

Didn't you notice the ambulance with Bernoldi? That guy was evidently a bit hurt, that was why it took so long. They first threw a local yellow, but when the ambulance had to show up they gave a FCY. Ironicly there actually was a crane there.
In my opinion the only stupid FCY was Castroneves in the pits.

They should also stop allowing pitstops at short caution periods.

[JSH]

Someone in another thread mentioned that the issue is liability. In other countries you are not as at risk of a lawsuit as in the U.S. That's certainly part of the problem and why Barnhart is overly cautious. But they seem to be really overdoing it this year, both on the ovals and road courses. Getting the wrecks off the track faster would at least be a start.

I'm not so sure. I remember when a marshall was hurt at the Melbourne F1 race a few years back the race organisers were taken to court.

And Italian Authorities went after people after the infamous San Marino weekend where Senna was killed.

[gofastandwynn]

Didn't you notice the ambulance with Bernoldi? That guy was evidently a bit hurt, that was why it took so long. They first threw a local yellow, but when the ambulance had to show up they gave a FCY. Ironicly there actually was a crane there.
In my opinion the only stupid FCY was Castroneves in the pits.


I didn't notice the ambulance for Bernoldi.

I understanding the Helio caution because of there he was. Being right at pit in somebody could spin on exit and hit a corner worker or have an accident like at Vancouver in 1990 when a car is coming into the pits.

[jarrambide]

But why a full course and not a local yellow?


Starter, didn´t you explain one time in the old CC forum your theory of why in this side of the pond they prefer full course yellows even in tracks that have the space (lets be honest, not every track in North America has the space most F1 tracks have), you have volunteered in a lot of tracks, you know the risks involve for every track volunteer and I do remember you do a better job of retelling that unfortunate incident with the local yellow, maybe it wasn´t you.

I prefer races with no full course yellows, if you are counting on one to frog jump to the front, so sorry, but I prefer to see the quickest cars to win, I understand not every track has the space to make this work, but some tracks do and some other tracks like WG have some corners in which you can use a local yellow, or is this an Indy Car style tradition we should keep in order not to be like European (oooh, what an ugly terrible word) series? ;)

[call_me_andrew]

I put some of the blame on Roy H. Weaver III. After his death at Daytona, NASCAR became a lot more apprehensive about local cautions and I think that attitude filtered into other sanctioning bodies as a result.

I was doing some research recently and I discovered that before 1978, cautions at Indianapolis forced the field to slow down, but they couldn't catch up to the cars ahead of them. I'm not saying IndyCar should do that all the time, but at a larger oval or a road course, I think it could slow the field down enough so that saftey crews can accomplish simple tasks (i.e. clear debris, stopped car on the apron, etc.) with out packing up the field.

[dataman1]

Many of the ideas discussed thus far are factors in causing FCY. IMHO

1. The U.S. is ripe with people waiting for an opportunity to file suit. Do something that is not outside of what others do and you will be in court for malpratice.
2. Most U.S. tracks don't have the numbers of hoist equipment to remove the cars from the track quickly. They rely on equipment staged in various central locations where the track builders designed them to sit.
3. Comparison to F1 is not fair as most U.S. tracks are built on natural terrain that does not have the landscape to place heavy hoist equipment. The majority of the F1 tracks are custom built for F1 with specs to provide for hoist equipment placement.
4. Lastly, considering the driver's skill displayed during the past 2 ICS events, I don't think we would want people on foot anyplace on the track without a FCY.

[Easy Drifter]

The tracks rent the hoisting equipment in most cases and with trained operators. If Monaco can place lift equipment to cover most areas despite been a street race so can other tracks. Mobile cranes with at least 75 foot booms are available. Not cheap to rent but available.

[!!WALDO!!]

Many of the ideas discussed thus far are factors in causing FCY. IMHO

1. The U.S. is ripe with people waiting for an opportunity to file suit. Do something that is not outside of what others do and you will be in court for malpratice.
2. Most U.S. tracks don't have the numbers of hoist equipment to remove the cars from the track quickly. They rely on equipment staged in various central locations where the track builders designed them to sit.
3. Comparison to F1 is not fair as most U.S. tracks are built on natural terrain that does not have the landscape to place heavy hoist equipment. The majority of the F1 tracks are custom built for F1 with specs to provide for hoist equipment placement.
4. Lastly, considering the driver's skill displayed during the past 2 ICS events, I don't think we would want people on foot anyplace on the track without a FCY.


Bingo, when Willy T. hit those workers at Vancouver the world came down from those having to pay the bills, insurance companies.
Yes it was a little over the top at the Glen but the race was clean until the stupidity took over.

Ron White got it right with "You can't fix stupid."

[garyshell]

But I don't understand why on a road course there is a need to go FCY most of the time. Sure there are situations that require this, I understand that. But take Mid Ohio for example (the track layout I am most familiar with), if a car goes off track into the gravel at the end of the long straight, why couldn't the cars be permitted to resume speed at the top of the next left-hander and proceed at speed all the way back around through the keyhole and maybe even up to the kink? The point is if the corner workers can let the guys know two corners ahead of where the "action" is (or 3-4 as layout dictates), they ought to be able to get slowed down plenty. Of course I am not one of those brave souls out there attending to the "action", so I would defer to Starter and others here who have risked life and limb to weigh in on this.

Gary

[JSH]

The point is if the corner workers can let the guys know two corners ahead of where the "action" is (or 3-4 as layout dictates), they ought to be able to get slowed down plenty.

Perhaps we need to clarify the difference between a "Full Course Yellow" and a "Local Yellow".

MY understanding is that with a FCY, everyone slows down behind pace car and no overtaking. BUT with a Local Yellow, it means No Overtaking - they could still go "at pace".

As I said, that's MY understanding, if anyone with more experience knows otherwise I think it's helpful for the debate.

[BenRoethig]

Like they said, for liability reasons, any incident that requires workers to come out requires to come out requires a full course caution or else insurance premiums would skyrocket. Local yellows can only be used if the the vehicle(s) are undamaged and can be restarted or if there is no damage to the course or debris and the vehicle is out of the racing line where safety workers can it to it safely. Also, any driver who has been an incident with either a barrier or another car must be taken to the infield care center.

[Chamoo]

What if say for debris cautions where they just need to send out a worker to clear the track, the IRL could trigger a CPU option that brings each car down to say 75mph? That way, the track would be calm, no one would catch up to each other, pit stop could occur, but without everyone being bunched up, workers could go out safely on track.

The cars would stay at a cruise control of 75mph until the green flag was dropped, or they entered pit lane.

[dataman1]

As I recall, there was a similar idea used on ovals by posting numbered displays around the track and if the driver was maintaining the proper speed he would always see the same number. Did I get that right Waldo?

Chamoo, I like the idea and think it could work but it would take lots of signal repeaters placed around the road course tracks to reach all cars regardless of their track position. It would also take more gadgets on each car, more officials to validate operation, etc.. driving costs up. I could also see teams yelling that the system failed and caused their car to slow. See, they always look for something or someone to blame for poor performance so this would be in the bag of things to blame.

[Lousada]

What if say for debris cautions where they just need to send out a worker to clear the track, the IRL could trigger a CPU option that brings each car down to say 75mph? That way, the track would be calm, no one would catch up to each other, pit stop could occur, but without everyone being bunched up, workers could go out safely on track.

The cars would stay at a cruise control of 75mph until the green flag was dropped, or they entered pit lane.

In The Netherlands and Belgium they use this system for club (endurance) races. Instead of the 'SC' sign you get a '50' sign, to command everyone to drive 50 kph.
The main disadvantage of the safety car is that drivers outside the que drive full speed around the track, creating hazards for the corner workers. Also it's not a completely fair system.
The main problem with the '50', is that some guys were driving 48 to deliberately start a trafficque, while others drove 52 to make up time. You see how team strategy comes into play here.
The system is excellent for clubraces. It's a whole lot safer than the safetycar, and of course fairer. But I wonder how this works when the stakes will get much higher, like at Indycar.

[!!WALDO!!]

This didn't start because of Vancouver. That incident was caused because Ribbs failed to use the pass through at the chicane when that corner was yellow, as had been instructed at the driver's meeting. Also by poor judgement on the part of the corner Captain and finally the event Flag Marshall for allowing a relative newby (the worker killed) to be in a hot position.

The other (in)famous CART things contributing to it were Mario hitting RG's parked car at Toronto and Mario & Mikey hitting the safety truck at Detroit.
So CART started leaning toward full course yellows instead of addressing the real problem - bad driving.


Over cocktails with Larry Rice who represented K and K that particular incident was what the Insurance companies looked at. Yes the about Andretti blindness but K and K or the policy holder had to payout in that case. Thus things get changed.

I personally would rather have local yellows but in this world it is required to be this way. Who remembers Mark Donohue going through a sign in Austria and climbing out of the car and walking back to the pits only to be dead 48 hours later from a head injury suffered in that crash.

[Lousada]

Once again, you'll notice it doesn't seem to be an issue with F1, which in many ways is faster and more competitive than American road races.

No it doesn't -seem- to be a problem. But just wait until something happens. Because there are not that many cars in F1 and the performance differences are pretty big, they got lucky so far. Also adding that F1 tracks are so so much bigger than any American track I have seen.
But I have heard and seen many horrorstories coming from the feeder series, where 26+ identical cars compete. All with wannabe F1 drivers. They all try to take advantage of the yellows, because then you can make up the most ground. But it creates very dangerous situations for the cornerworkers.

[call_me_andrew]

What if say for debris cautions where they just need to send out a worker to clear the track, the IRL could trigger a CPU option that brings each car down to say 75mph? That way, the track would be calm, no one would catch up to each other, pit stop could occur, but without everyone being bunched up, workers could go out safely on track.

The cars would stay at a cruise control of 75mph until the green flag was dropped, or they entered pit lane.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said the first time around. But it is dangerous (more like stupid dangerous) to try and slow down a race car remotely. Imagine you're going 215 in the turns at Indy. Your car suddenly slows down remotely. This causes all the weight to shift to the front and the rear end to step out putting you in a spin.

The drivers have to be in control. And I think instead of putting big signs around the track we could just put "speed up" and "slow down" lights in the cockpit.

[Lousada]

Sure, being that close to a race track is always hazardous for anybody. The corner workers know what the risks are and they accept that as part of being involved that closely in the sport, just as the drivers do. They just don't get paid for it. ;) Though they are, by definition, amateurs they take great pride in the professionalism (in the best sense of the word) with which they help make road racing events happen. The safety of ALL participants is one of their goals. They are subject to potentially life threatening situations and accept it as part of doing the job right.
And on balance, corner working is no more hazardous than if you choose to ride a motorcycle, go water or snow sking, or climb a mountain as your hobby.

The danger from a cornerworkers job comes from the other drivers still in the race. In my opinion a lot of drivers, especially younger ones, do not have a clear appreciation of cornerworkers, and that this shows in their behaviour during yellows. This was sort of the point I was trying to make, that human behaviour sometimes prevents the simple solutions - in this case the choice between a local yellow or a FCY.