Dixon's penalty a joke.

[anthonyvop]

Dixon jumps the start and passes 2 cars before the start-finish line and the Penalty they come up with is a 1 place demotion?

He should have had to pay at least a drive through......

[jarrambide]

Dixon jumps the start and passes 2 cars before the start-finish line and the Penalty they come up with is a 1 place demotion?

He should have had to pay at least a drive through......

I had forgotten about it, thanks for pointing it out.

The important thing here is consistency, I believe something like that deserves a harsher penalty, but if the last couple of drivers doing the same received the same penalty, then it would have been unfair to Dixon, but, if they have given a harsher penalty in the past and they give harsher penalties in the future, then it is a joke.

Someone remembers the last 2 times or at least the last time it happened?

[icehammer97]

On a road course it is hard to get cars side by side exactally so many times guys in the same row, ie positions 3 and 4, start in the wrong order. I have not seen the start yet as I just got back from the race but I would be willing to bet several other cars on the outside of rows had passed the person on the inside of their row.

[BobGarage]

to be fair, i think half the problem was justins gear box failing as he got a slow start whilst dixon was on pace behind him. but that is still no excuse for being past JW and RHR and alongside briscoe crossing the s/f line.

[Blancvino]

On a road course it is hard to get cars side by side exactally so many times guys in the same row, ie positions 3 and 4, start in the wrong order. I have not seen the start yet as I just got back from the race but I would be willing to bet several other cars on the outside of rows had passed the person on the inside of their row.

A standing start solves it!

[weeflyonthewall]

It's not hard at all at most road circuits (streets, yes). No excuse for the 1st half of the field, at least, to be lined up properly.

A pathetic start like that would have been waved off in the OW series no longer in existence. Its time to put Cotman in a position where he can make a difference. Standing starts can be beneficial.

[gofastandwynn]

A pathetic start like that would have been waved off in the OW series no longer in existence. Its time to put Cotman in a position where he can make a difference. Standing starts can be beneficial.

Oh please, rolling starts in cart/champcar were some of the worst ever seen. You would be lucky in the first row was double file. Standing stars are for formula 1 & it's feeder series, not Indy Car.

[!!WALDO!!]

Your point on the CART/CC starts is true.

However, I disagree completely on the second point. Roads & streets should all be standing starts.


Hear we go again. In History 2007 is standing starts prior to that was 96 years ago.

Yes there is a tradition of this... :p : :p : :D


Thanks for the laugh before surgery.

[jarrambide]

Hear we go again. In History 2007 is standing starts prior to that was 96 years ago.

Yes there is a tradition of this... :p : :p : :D


Thanks for the laugh before surgery.
We also have a tradition of you being obnoxious, pompous, rude, incoherent (taking time to write without so many errors could help with the incoherent part, like writing "here we go again", you should be ashame, English is your maternal tongue), arrogant and clueless, doesn´t mean every member in the forum is in love with the way you are.

I like tradition as much as the next guy/gal, but I don´t believe that every tradition should stay just because it has always been done that way, or because some people believe F1 and Indy Car should try to be very different from one another or not do things that are suppposedly traditions from the other.

[!!WALDO!!]

We also have a tradition of you being obnoxious, pompous, rude, incoherent (taking time to write without so many errors could help with the incoherent part, like writing "here we go again", you should be ashame, English is your maternal tongue), arrogant and clueless, doesn´t mean every member in the forum is in love with the way you are.

I like tradition as much as the next guy/gal, but I don´t believe that every tradition should stay just because it has always been done that way, or because some people believe F1 and Indy Car should try to be very different from one another or not do things that are suppposedly traditions from the other.


Thank you for the insult.

[gofastandwynn]

I like tradition as much as the next guy/gal, but I don´t believe that every tradition should stay just because it has always been done that way, or because some people believe F1 and Indy Car should try to be very different from one another or not do things that are suppposedly traditions from the other.

My question is what is the NEED to change?

[!!WALDO!!]

My question is what is the NEED to change?


Because it has to be changed for peace.

[jarrambide]

My question is what is the NEED to change?

Some people would answer back, what is the NEED not to change anything?

But in reality there is no need to change and there is no need not to change things, what we do have in real life is people that for street and natural courses prefer standing starts and people that prefer rolling starts, as simple as that, different opinions.

When people have different opinions you can argue why one of the sides of the argument makes sense to you, but answering that standing starts belong only in F1 and rolling starts in Indy Car or talk about how tradition should stay untouched is not really defending rolling starts.

I personally love standing starts, even tough I used to be a CART/CC fan, CART races where having rolling starts well before the IRL was created, and when they wanted to try standing starts, many fans also talked about tradition or keeping CC different from F1, but only a few talked about how exciting and great rolling starts are in road and street courses, which is an opinion I can and will respect, different people have different tastes.

[!!WALDO!!]

I personally love standing starts, even tough I used to be a CART/CC fan, CART races where having rolling starts well before the IRL was created, and when they wanted to try standing starts, many fans also talked about tradition or keeping CC different from F1, but only a few talked about how exciting and great rolling starts are in road and street courses, which is an opinion I can and will respect, different people have different tastes.

Before CART was created too and USAC was created. You can thank the Automobile Association of America, AAA for that.

[jarrambide]

Before CART was created too and USAC was created. You can thank the Automobile Association of America, AAA for that.
Your point is?, This has something to do with standing vs rolling starts because?
My point was that wanting standing starts has nothing to do with CC vs IRL attitude that some posters still have, my point was that I like standing starts even tough CART was doing rolling starts when I became a fan as a kid long before the existence of the IRL, proving that it has nothing to do with the CC vs IRL attitude of some fans, and has nothing to do with your laughable assumption that I was trying to credit CART with the invention of rolling starts, please share with me your point and the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

[!!WALDO!!]

Your point is?, This has something to do with standing vs rolling starts because?
My point was that wanting standing starts has nothing to do with CC vs IRL attitude that some posters still have, my point was that I like standing starts even tough CART was doing rolling starts when I became a fan as a kid, please share with me your point and the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

Actually it has to do with the Dixon penalty that got sidetracked by people like you.
The issue is there isn't a clear rule here as Wilson's gearbox failed, problem is Dixon did advance his postion prior to the start line, a violation under AAA, USAC, CART, IRL and CCWS.
Then penalty is safer than restarting the race #1 and how far back Wilson fell told IRL officials that there was a possible problem so just have Dixon move back as spot.
Here again is the difference between WILL and MAY. They used the may.

Now if this was a standing start then Dixon may have plowed into the rear of Wilson wrecking both cars and two or three more.

I think it was called right as the circumstances showed as time went on.

All done with this....

[jarrambide]

Actually it has to do with the Dixon penalty that got sidetracked by people like you.
The issue is there isn't a clear rule here as Wilson's gearbox failed, problem is Dixon did advance his postion prior to the start line, a violation under AAA, USAC, CART, IRL and CCWS.
Then penalty is safer than restarting the race #1 and how far back Wilson fell told IRL officials that there was a possible problem so just have Dixon move back as spot.
Here again is the difference between WILL and MAY. They used the may.

Now if this was a standing start then Dixon may have plowed into the rear of Wilson wrecking both cars and two or three more.

I think it was called right as the circumstances showed as time went on.

All done with this....
"La pelle se moque du fourgon" Waldo.

Oh, Mr. Waldo, if it has nothing to do with the subject, just tell me or don´t answer, but trying to make a connection to the original subject but at the same time bash standing starts is a waste of your encyclopedic knowledge, by the way, I have seen starts in F1 in which cars have troubles at starting and even cars that don´t start at all without cars crashing , by the way Mr. Pot, accusing me or any Kettle of sidetracking the post is very funny when you talked about starts before I did, if you read carefully (I know you can do it if you apply yourself) the whole thread you will see I mentioned starts one post exactly after you mentioned starts, but I will give you this, the "All done with this..." attitude, loved it, it sounds so imposing, so macho, I really got served.

[gofastandwynn]

Your point is?, This has something to do with standing vs rolling starts because?
My point was that wanting standing starts has nothing to do with CC vs IRL attitude that some posters still have, my point was that I like standing starts even tough CART was doing rolling starts when I became a fan as a kid long before the existence of the IRL, proving that it has nothing to do with the CC vs IRL attitude of some fans, and has nothing to do with your laughable assumption that I was trying to credit CART with the invention of rolling starts, please share with me your point and the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

I like standing starts too, I love the starts of SpeedGT and how Formula Mazda added them this year, but it is not part of Indycar racing. If I recall my history correctly I think the first rolling start was the first 500 back in 1911 (but that might just be a false claim) and they have used rolling starts ever since then up until last year when CCWS was trying to get away from american Indy racing and more to european Formula racing (timed events instead of set distance, no white flag).

I think the only problem with the starts has been the field hasn't been forming up until the last min (remember when all the pace laps at Indy were run 3 wide. I don't think you should scrap something that would only need a small fix.

As far as Dixon goes, how does a standing start prevent him from jumping early? Are you saying you can't jump a standing start?

[garyshell]

Your point on the CART/CC starts is true.

However, I disagree completely on the second point. Roads & streets should all be standing starts.


Hear we go again. In History 2007 is standing starts prior to that was 96 years ago.

Yes there is a tradition of this... :p : :p : :D


Thanks for the laugh before surgery.

And exactly WHERE did Starter say there was anything about any tradition influencing the suggestion of standing starts on road and street courses. You are the only one so totally fixated on history to think that EVERY freakin' decision must be based on tradition or history. If we all thought like you, we'd be watching one horse power racing because THAT was the tradition and only history many years ago.

Gary

[garyshell]

I like standing starts too, I love the starts of SpeedGT and how Formula Mazda added them this year, but it is not part of Indycar racing. If I recall my history correctly I think the first rolling start was the first 500 back in 1911 (but that might just be a false claim) and they have used rolling starts ever since then up until last year when CCWS was trying to get away from american Indy racing and more to european Formula racing (timed events instead of set distance, no white flag).

I think the only problem with the starts has been the field hasn't been forming up until the last min (remember when all the pace laps at Indy were run 3 wide. I don't think you should scrap something that would only need a small fix.

As far as Dixon goes, how does a standing start prevent him from jumping early? Are you saying you can't jump a standing start?

So you like it when Formula Mazda ADDED them, but it would not be OK for the ICS to add them. Now that makes a whole lot of sense now doesn't it. And your comment about the reason that CCWS chose to try them out being so that they could get away from american Indy racing is laughable at best and pathetic at worst. Since when did you gain the ability to read the minds of the CCWS decision makers? Just more of your "I still can't get the split behind me" attitude clouding your thinking. God forbid that the ICS should ever entertain an idea that the former CCWS tried out. Who cares if rolling starts have been used since 1911? The also used riding mechanics in those days, we got rid of them didn't we? No one is suggesting eliminating rolling starts on ovals. The only suggestion is that on non ovals standing starts might make sense, especially on courses where the last turn before the start finish line doesn't provide enough room to get the full field in view of the starter.

Here's another little non-traditional thinking applied to actually improve the racing. For many many years the start and finish of races at MidOhio was on the front straight. Then someone actually thought outside the box and threw tradition under the bus and had the starts occur on the back straight. Oh the heresy of it all. But guess what, it DID improve the racing by having all the field withing the starter's view!

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

So you like it when Formula Mazda ADDED them, but it would not be OK for the ICS to add them. Now that makes a whole lot of sense now doesn't it. And your comment about the reason that CCWS chose to try them out being so that they could get away from american Indy racing is laughable at best and pathetic at worst. Since when did you gain the ability to read the minds of the CCWS decision makers? Just more of your "I still can't get the split behind me" attitude clouding your thinking. God forbid that the ICS should ever entertain an idea that the former CCWS tried out. Who cares if rolling starts have been used since 1911? The also used riding mechanics in those days, we got rid of them didn't we? No one is suggesting eliminating rolling starts on ovals. The only suggestion is that on non ovals standing starts might make sense, especially on courses where the last turn before the start finish line doesn't provide enough room to get the full field in view of the starter.


Because Formula Mazda is not Indy car nor is formula mazda trying to be like Indy car. It isn't called Indy Mazda, nor is it called Formula Indy.

As far as the changes CC made last season, that was what made the most sense. What else would they make the changes they did?

Hell, you are right, just because that is the way we have always done it before and there no real reason to change, but why shouldn't we. But why stop there, just because we have run open wheels for so long it doesn't mean we still have to, lets close the wheels in bodywork since no one makes open wheel production cars anymore. We can start racing ovals clockwise too, just like they like to run track in europe, clockwise.

But why stop there. Nascar has never done standing starts either, but those are basically an american version saloon cars, why doesn't nascar do standing starts.

And what does not wanting standing starts have to do with the split. Did CCWS invent standing starts?

And as far as the started not being able to see the field, you can fix that with a 15 inch LCD flat screen in the flag stand. Yea, you don't need to cut of the arm for a cut on the finger.



Here's another little non-traditional thinking applied to actually improve the racing. For many many years the start and finish of races at MidOhio was on the front straight. Then someone actually thought outside the box and threw tradition under the bus and had the starts occur on the back straight. Oh the heresy of it all. But guess what, it DID improve the racing by having all the field withing the starter's view!

Gary

I am sure it had nothing to do with not enough time for the field to line up in rows, but whatever. Hey, but why didn't somebody just say "From now one we will only do standing starts at Mid Ohio."

[bravefish]

Regardless of all the debate, it was a great start from Dixon to thread through like that. As soon as the point car puts the hammer down its all on, let it go. Personally I thought Scott was hard done by - if the start isnt waved off then get on with it.

[anthonyvop]

Regardless of all the debate, it was a great start from Dixon to thread through like that. As soon as the point car puts the hammer down its all on, let it go. Personally I thought Scott was hard done by - if the start isnt waved off then get on with it.
So it is ok for you that Scott Dixon Cheated?

The rules say that you cannot pass any car until you cross the Start/Finish line. He passed 2 cars and yet was only demoted 1 position.

[Lousada]

Standing starts, rolling starts. A jump start is a jump start.

[jarrambide]

Trying to be like Indy Car?, so you really believe that rolling starts and using a white flag really makes Indy Car so different from other OW series?

Open wheel cars with motors on the back running around for a fixed number of laps with pit stops to change tires and refuel, whoever finishes first wins, sounds pretty much the same to me, wait, wait, rolling starts?, white flag?, winner´s circle?, now I see the light, it is soooooo different.

Now I do get why some fans still act as if there was a split, some people need to feel they are part of something different, want to feel special trough something external, how can some people not see fans of open wheel racing have more in common regardless of their favorite series is beyond me, so, now that there is no CC, then it will be F1 vs Indy Car.

Yes there are some differences, but standing starts, white flags and winner´s circle are not the real difference, the real difference is the technology and amount of money being spend to improve the cars, the real difference is that one is a spec series and the other one a constructor series, or the fact one has ovals and the other doesn´t, but even with those differences is pretty much the same thing.

[bravefish]

So it is ok for you that Scott Dixon Cheated?

The rules say that you cannot pass any car until you cross the Start/Finish line. He passed 2 cars and yet was only demoted 1 position.



Yes rules are rules, no disputing that. But jump starts happen all the time throughout the entire field on rolling starts and how many go by without penalty? There seems to be a bit more flexibility with that rule, say compared to pit lane exits and establishing who gets across the line first. How often do we see the side-on camera to the start finish line on starts? Buggar all if ever.

[garyshell]

Because Formula Mazda is not Indy car nor is formula mazda trying to be like Indy car. It isn't called Indy Mazda, nor is it called Formula Indy.

Oh I get it now, it is ok for any OTHER series to make some changes but it is NOT ok for the ICS to do so. Thanks for clarifying that.


As far as the changes CC made last season, that was what made the most sense. What else would they make the changes they did?

Made the most sense to who? You and the other folks who despised every single thing that the CCWS did? Only the CCWS haters who thought they could read the minds of the officials ever suggested that the changes the CCWS made were to make the CCWS look more like a European series. Now do you want the REAL answer as to why the changes were made? To improve the product, period. And if memory serves me I believe this change was brought about by a now official of the ICS.


Hell, you are right, just because that is the way we have always done it before and there no real reason to change, but why shouldn't we. But why stop there, just because we have run open wheels for so long it doesn't mean we still have to, lets close the wheels in bodywork since no one makes open wheel production cars anymore. We can start racing ovals clockwise too, just like they like to run track in Europe, clockwise.

But why stop there. Nascar has never done standing starts either, but those are basically an american version saloon cars, why doesn't nascar do standing starts.

No one other than you is suggesting anything other than the possibility of using standing starts at particular venues where such use could make sense. You specious argument still ignores my contention that the series over the years has changed certain traditions. They have been willing to set aside certain things in the name of a better product or a safer product. Yet you and others in this argument dig in your heels and say "NO CHANGE TO TRADITION EVER!". Like I said it's laughable at best and pathetic at worst.


And what does not wanting standing starts have to do with the split. Did CCWS invent standing starts?

Nope they didn't, but because it has become obvious that ANYTHING that the CCWS did differently is wrong in the eyes of the CCWS haters, you tell me how this is NOT about the split.


And as far as the started not being able to see the field, you can fix that with a 15 inch LCD flat screen in the flag stand. Yea, you don't need to cut of the arm for a cut on the finger.

And that fixes the issue for the backmarkers to be unable to see what has or has not occurred on the front straight how?


I am sure it had nothing to do with not enough time for the field to line up in rows, but whatever. Hey, but why didn't somebody just say "From now one we will only do standing starts at Mid Ohio."

The point was they did something that did not follow tradition. If they took your attitude of tradition is never to be changed, we'd still have the sort of pileups in turn one at Mid Ohio that a change in tradition has prevented.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

Oh I get it now, it is ok for any OTHER series to make some changes but it is NOT ok for the ICS to do so. Thanks for clarifying that.


Can you just not process that certain form of racing are different from another? Is that too much for you? Why doesn't F-1 do a rolling start? Why doesn't Nascar do a le mans start? Because it is not part of the culture, nor does it NEED to change. A small group on the internet might want it to change, but if they were important they would be on the internet




Made the most sense to who? You and the other folks who despised every single thing that the CCWS did? Only the CCWS haters who thought they could read the minds of the officials ever suggested that the changes the CCWS made were to make the CCWS look more like a European series. Now do you want the REAL answer as to why the changes were made? To improve the product, period. And if memory serves me I believe this change was brought about by a now official of the ICS.



Oh, so then how does getting rid of the white flag to signal the last lap improve the show? Name another north american circuit racing series that dosen't use the white flag to signal the last lap? I always assumed they did it to fall inline with the FIA usage of the white flag. I am SURE you know the reason with your VAST racing knowledge.


No one other than you is suggesting anything other than the possibility of using standing starts at particular venues where such use could make sense. You specious argument still ignores my contention that the series over the years has changed certain traditions. They have been willing to set aside certain things in the name of a better product or a safer product. Yet you and others in this argument dig in your heels and say "NO CHANGE TO TRADITION EVER!". Like I said it's laughable at best and pathetic at worst.


Absolutely the sport has changed over time, but you have yet to prove direct & compelling need for a change. Doesn't Formula 1 use a rolling start when the conditions are too dangerous for a standing start? And how many CCWS events had to go full course caution after the start when cars were left stalled on the grid? Now how does that conclusively improve the show or make it safer?

But if you want to start changing traditions, why shouldn't you stop there? What makes the cars more dangerous than having open wheels? If the wheels are not exposed the chances of a car launching goes down, improving safety. And with full bodywork then can race closer and bang off each other, improving the show. I mean, aren't the cars only open wheel because of TRADITION?

And I am sure you find it "laughable at best and pathetic at worst," because you already used that line in you last post.





Nope they didn't, but because it has become obvious that ANYTHING that the CCWS did differently is wrong in the eyes of the CCWS haters, you tell me how this is NOT about the split.



Well, if what CCWS did differently was right it would still be around, now wouldn't it?

And last I checked all of the talk about the 2010 engines was about turbos.

I do find it laughable that the ccws contingent is complaining about hatred after all they have spewed out.




And that fixes the issue for the backmarkers to be unable to see what has or has not occurred on the front straight how?



Well, that is where a spotter & corner workers come in, duh.

My suggestion to the back markers is to qualify up front.

You know who complains about things "not being fair?" Think about it. Losers. Winners celebrate, losers complain.




The point was they did something that did not follow tradition. If they took your attitude of tradition is never to be changed, we'd still have the sort of pileups in turn one at Mid Ohio that a change in tradition has prevented.

Gary

So no track before Mid Ohio had ever done a start in one area & finished in another? The World of Outlaws had been doing that since their inception, as did the Long Beach GP, and the Swedish GP at Anderstorp did something unconventional as well.

The point is did they scrap the entire formula of doing a start (as you want), or just change the location?

[garyshell]

Can you just not process that certain form of racing are different from another? Is that too much for you? Why doesn't F-1 do a rolling start? Why doesn't Nascar do a le mans start? Because it is not part of the culture, nor does it NEED to change. A small group on the internet might want it to change, but if they were important they would be on the internet

I never once suggested they should all be the same. You however, insist that tradition rules all. Some folks think there IS a need for change to standing starts at certain venues where it does make sense to do so. Other folks say no, tradition rules all other factors be damned.



Oh, so then how does getting rid of the white flag to signal the last lap improve the show? Name another north american circuit racing series that dosen't use the white flag to signal the last lap? I always assumed they did it to fall inline with the FIA usage of the white flag. I am SURE you know the reason with your VAST racing knowledge.

I never suggested that getting rid of the white flag was anything other than a stupid idea. So what does that have to do with standing starts? More diversion.



But if you want to start changing traditions, why shouldn't you stop there? What makes the cars more dangerous than having open wheels? If the wheels are not exposed the chances of a car launching goes down, improving safety. And with full bodywork then can race closer and bang off each other, improving the show. I mean, aren't the cars only open wheel because of TRADITION?

And I am sure you find it "laughable at best and pathetic at worst," because you already used that line in you last post.

Don't want to disappoint you but yes this argument is "laughable at best and pathetic at worst". Some of us were discussing standing starts. No other changes, yet you want to divert the discussion to some ridiculous, oops sorry pathetic and laughable, new set of changes.



Well, if what CCWS did differently was right it would still be around, now wouldn't it?

And last I checked all of the talk about the 2010 engines was about turbos.

I do find it laughable that the ccws contingent is complaining about hatred after all they have spewed out.

Ah so anyone who showed any sort of support for CART and then CCWS is painted with the same brush. I get it. I just love it how you take the interest in a SINGLE idea that CCWS tried (under the direction of the person who NOW holds a similar if not identical role at ICS) and stretch it into EVERYTHING that CCWS did.


Well, that is where a spotter & corner workers come in, duh.

My suggestion to the back markers is to qualify up front.

You know who complains about things "not being fair?" Think about it. Losers. Winners celebrate, losers complain.

Spotters on road courses? Interesting idea. Been to a road course race lately? Did you see spotters for all the teams scattered around the track? Who said a damn thing about this being about being fair? Oh wait you just did. The idea of using standing starts is not about being fair.


So no track before Mid Ohio had ever done a start in one area & finished in another? The World of Outlaws had been doing that since their inception, as did the Long Beach GP, and the Swedish GP at Anderstorp did something unconventional as well.

The point is did they scrap the entire formula of doing a start (as you want), or just change the location?

The point I raised was that they thought about doing something that went against the tradition. No more, no less.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

I never once suggested they should all be the same. You however, insist that tradition rules all. Some folks think there IS a need for change to standing starts at certain venues where it does make sense to do so. Other folks say no, tradition rules all other factors be damned.


Tradition doesn't rule all. The point is if there is absolutely no reason to change, then why should we? Tradition & our history is what makes up who we are. I don't think is should be thrown out because a small but vocal group of fans say it should with no proof it will change the show for the better or make it safer.

If it is tough to do a rolling start at some places, the just change where they do the start (like at Mid Ohio ;) ) Your problem is solved, no need for standing starts. You should be happy.




I never suggested that getting rid of the white flag was anything other than a stupid idea. So what does that have to do with standing starts? More diversion.


It was the combination of all of their changes that made appear they wanted to become a FIA style european formula.



Don't want to disappoint you but yes this argument is "laughable at best and pathetic at worst". Some of us were discussing standing starts. No other changes, yet you want to divert the discussion to some ridiculous, oops sorry pathetic and laughable, new set of changes.


If you want to start making unnecessary changes because "the only reason they do it is tradition", then where does it stop?

Oh, yea, you still have yet to say how it makes it safer or improves the show.



Ah so anyone who showed any sort of support for CART and then CCWS is painted with the same brush. I get it. I just love it how you take the interest in a SINGLE idea that CCWS tried (under the direction of the person who NOW holds a similar if not identical role at ICS) and stretch it into EVERYTHING that CCWS did.


Yea, it goes in the same line as the "gomer" stance taken by the cc fanatics. I didn't see you denouncing that.

And where is "everything" in my statement? They tried it, the series didn't last a year after it.



Spotters on road courses? Interesting idea. Been to a road course race lately? Did you see spotters for all the teams scattered around the track? Who said a damn thing about this being about being fair? Oh wait you just did. The idea of using standing starts is not about being fair.


Yea, actually some teams do use spotters on the road coursed in different locations when they are needed. They also use tv monitors in the pits to warn drivers over the radios about hazards on track, as does race control.

And you were the one talking about the backmarkers not being able to see. That sounds like a fairness complaint to me. A Starter said something along the same lines earlier.



The point I raised was that they thought about doing something that went against the tradition. No more, no less.

Gary
And your example is "laughable at best and pathetic at worst."

[garyshell]

Yea, it goes in the same line as the "gomer" stance taken by the cc fanatics.

Let's get one thing perfectly straight here, did you EVER see me participating in that stance. No, you did not. So don't lump me in with it.


As for the rest of your incessant flogging of the dead horse, all I will say is Tony Cotman seemed to think standing starts were a good idea at CCWS and he is now in charge of competition at the ICS. So I will defer to HIS judgment, not yours.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

Let's get one thing perfectly straight here, did you EVER see me participating in that stance. No, you did not. So don't lump me in with it.


As for the rest of your incessant flogging of the dead horse, all I will say is Tony Cotman seemed to think standing starts were a good idea at CCWS and he is now in charge of competition at the ICS. So I will defer to HIS judgment, not yours.

Gary

OK, I apologize for lumping you in with those fanatics.

Actually, Brian Barnhart is in charge of competition, Cottman is his assistant and in charge of the Indy Lights series.

[garyshell]

OK, I apologize for lumping you in with those fanatics.

Actually, Brian Barnhart is in charge of competition, Cottman is his assistant and in charge of the Indy Lights series.


Thank you!

Ok, then I will defer to Brian and Tony. I am pretty sure Tony has had this discussion with Brian already.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

And fanaticism is because it doesn't fit your ISC criteria gofast? :o hplease:
Standing starts have long been a traditional means of starting a road race. I can still remember when race cars were gridded at an angle and the drivers had to run to their cars.
Before Indy there was Brooklands. Sir Stirling Moss raced ovals in the rain, when it rains here, they park the cars. Can't be much worse than the Richmond crashfest if they raced ovals on rain tires. At least the high banks accelerate drainage. :D

[!!WALDO!!]

Trying to be like Indy Car?, so you really believe that rolling starts and using a white flag really makes Indy Car so different from other OW series?

Every professional open wheel series uses the White Flag in the U.S. Only the CCWS in 2007 did not.

Your local tracks use it, as it is a form of communications with the car as all flags are.

[jarrambide]

Every professional open wheel series uses the White Flag in the U.S. Only the CCWS in 2007 did not.

Your local tracks use it, as it is a form of communications with the car as all flags are.
Mr. Waldo, do you really read questions before answering?
Did I question the white flag being a staple of US racing?
I was questioning the Indy Car style vs European Series style comment of another poster, I was questioning that the use or lack of use of a white flag and the use or lack of use of rolling stars as real differences or different styles, my point was and is that a white flag and rolling starts do not make Indy Car and F1 that different, that in fact other factors are real big differences(spec series vs constructors series, ovals vs no ovals, little research vs lots of research, avant garde technology vs technology from a few years back) but that in the end, there are more things in common than differences, specially if the supposedly real differences are a white flag and a rolling start.

In this context, which was the only I used in the partial quote you are citing, what is the point or relevance of your information?

[!!WALDO!!]

Mr. Waldo, do you really read questions before answering?
Did I question the white flag being a staple of US racing?
I was questioning the Indy Car style vs European Series style comment of another poster, I was questioning that the use or lack of use of a white flag and the use or lack of use of rolling stars as real differences or different styles, my point was and is that a white flag and rolling starts do not make Indy Car and F1 that different, that in fact other factors are real big differences(spec series vs constructors series, ovals vs no ovals, little research vs lots of research, avant garde technology vs technology from a few years back) but that in the end, there are more things in common than differences, specially if the supposedly real differences are a white flag and a rolling start.

In this context, which was the only I used in the partial quote you are citing, what is the point or relevance of your information?

What does your comment about White Flags, rolling starts have to do with Dixon's penalty?
See I gave a legit answer and somehow this always falls back to one year in history.
Yes, I served as an official many times for small tracks to big tracks and you must follow the rules.
Dixon jumped because of Wilson's problem. If Wilson had been running third at the end of lap one the Dixon would have gotten a drive through. Since he dropped to 7th it appeared he had a very serious problem so Dixon, who broke the rule was given the benefit of the doubt and moved back one spot.

Now your position about White Flags and Standing Starts means what to this argument?
You are inflaming the issue and trying to get a rise out of people. This series is an U.S. based series and cares very little about the likes and dislikes of 30000 in England or anywhere else. We will not support an European type series as the CanAm, F-5000 and what Champ Car became.
Fly over country supports series that have people with their names like Wallace, Gordon, Johnson, Stewart and not Castroneves, Mutoh, Kanaan etc.

So this series to survive needs more names these people can pronounce and that is why a Patrick, Carpenter, Foyt and Hunter-Reay are important to this.

This country elects people to be President based on the ease of saying their name. Name too complicated they vote for the simplier name.

Such is life here, I read what you post and understand your motives. So I will not respond to anything you say any more.

[jarrambide]

We?, now you talk for everyone?
This country elects people to be President based on the ease of saying their name?, now you talk for every American?
I like discussing with you because I never know what you will answer, yes, many times you are incoherent and/or pointless, but in you is a quality, it makes you very entertaining.
You will not respond to anything I say any more?, oooh, sounds more macho than the "I´m done with this", very impressive, that is why OW fans around the country elected you to talk in their behalf. :D

[!!WALDO!!]

We?, now you talk for everyone?
This country elects people to be President based on the ease of saying their name?, now you talk for every American?
I like discussing with you because I never know what you will answer, yes, many times you are incoherent and/or pointless, but in you is a quality, it makes you very entertaining.
You will not respond to anything I say any more?, oooh, sounds more macho than the "I´m done with this", very impressive, that is why OW fans around the country elected you to talk in their behalf. :D

Thank you and good bye... :mad:


many times you are incoherent and/or pointless, but in you is a quality, it makes you very entertaining.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125602

[speeddurango]

I thought this topic is about the penalty on Dixon? Anyway, since we've changed the topic anyway, no standing start please thanks bye.

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