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mstillhere
7th July 2008, 02:28
Well it looks that after my post on MLaren's stupity it's only fair to talk about Ferrari's stupidity as well. I don't know if you noticed but in the last few races Ferrari's personnel seems to be not up to the task. Kimi penalized in Monaco because a mechanic was not done with his tires. And then the muffler incident, and then Ferrari apologizing to Massa for screwing up his final lap. Today instead we have new mistakes: they did not change Kimi's tires 'cause they figured that the sun was about to come out and get everything dry in 10 minutes. How about that!! I am actually getting fed up with their stupity throwing away week afyter week the opportunity to seal the championship. Feel sorry for Kimi, who is putting up with so much incompetence that's actually costing him a championship. We need Schumi back. Oh...man. He truly was the king of the rain. Michael, Michael, please....please.......come back. We really need you bad....Michael....

ShiftingGears
7th July 2008, 02:36
They don't need Michael back. Because their problem is mediocre strategy.

markabilly
7th July 2008, 02:43
Already discussed problem under other threads, no correct tyres, no Todt and NO BRAWN

Shifter
7th July 2008, 06:22
Ferrari should beware when the average F1 fan could make better race-strategy calls than they are. Seriously did you not think to yourself during the first pit stop "well, I would have put fresh intermediates on"?

Storm
7th July 2008, 08:25
Maybe they have some advanced weather prediction system made just for them?
Rather than just looking at the sky and what everyone else was doing they decided to "gamble" on it being dry :s

ioan
7th July 2008, 08:33
Already discussed problem under other threads, no correct tyres, no Todt and NO BRAWN

To put things simple, no brain!

ArrowsFA1
7th July 2008, 09:28
I think people are being a little harsh on Ferrari. Sunday's conditions were a lottery, and in those circumstances hindsight has made the team look chumps. Perhaps if Todt/Brawn were there they wouldn't have made the calls they did, who knows, but even they didn't get things right every time.

ioan
7th July 2008, 10:14
I think people are being a little harsh on Ferrari. Sunday's conditions were a lottery, and in those circumstances hindsight has made the team look chumps. Perhaps if Todt/Brawn were there they wouldn't have made the calls they did, who knows, but even they didn't get things right every time.

The problem is that Ferrari got it wrong for a several times already this season and we are only at half of it.
They made more strategic mistakes in half a season than during the whole MS/Brawn/Byrne/Todt era. :\

Knock-on
7th July 2008, 10:20
I think people are being a little harsh on Ferrari. Sunday's conditions were a lottery, and in those circumstances hindsight has made the team look chumps. Perhaps if Todt/Brawn were there they wouldn't have made the calls they did, who knows, but even they didn't get things right every time.

When they didn't change tyres on the Ferrari, I was screaming at the telly for McLaren not to follow suit.

If I was a Ferrari fan, I would be very frustrated. They have the best car and should be walking it. Still time for them to pull things together.

BDunnell
7th July 2008, 10:53
The problem is that Ferrari got it wrong for a several times already this season and we are only at half of it.
They made more strategic mistakes in half a season than during the whole MS/Brawn/Byrne/Todt era. :\

I don't think you should expect perfection every time. Perfection is not only impossible to achieve, it's also boring in sport and diminishes the spectacle and interest for those of us who aren't rooting for anyone in particular.

You seem prepared to forgive Massa for making the odd mistake, and quite rightly defend him against those who are too critical of his occasional errors based on views formed about him in seasons gone by - why not those responsible for strategy, who have after all got it right in 2008 more often than they've got it wrong?

I suspect that being an armchair pundit, looking on from the sidelines or whatever is a bit easier in these circumstances than actually doing the job.

Azumanga Davo
7th July 2008, 10:54
Already discussed problem under other threads, no correct tyres, no Todt and NO BRAWN

It's not a question of having no Brawn, it's a question of having no Brains.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/anderson/thunderbirds/images/520_brains.jpg

markabilly
7th July 2008, 11:26
Well, so far this year, a ferrari has not run out of fuel leaving the pitlane during qualifying....

gravity
7th July 2008, 11:58
Maybe Mclaren 'intercepted' Ferrari's weather report and replaced it with their own version... knowing what cheats they are, and all.

Whyzars
7th July 2008, 12:23
Seriously did you not think to yourself during the first pit stop "well, I would have put fresh intermediates on"?

It absolutely amazes me that teams didn't put fresh rubber on - I wonder what input the driver's had or was it all telemetry and weather rocks? For the Honda to then go through the field like a scythe and that not prompt action from other teams was equally amazing. I understand needing to do something different to get an edge but if they get it wrong they ruin their own race and the numbers sometimes don't add up in my 20/20 hindsight opinion. :)

Its been a very interesting year for 'variables' deciding races although yesterday was Hamilton's day and nothing would've changed it. He was on fire.

gravity
7th July 2008, 13:10
Last week was Ron's turn to put up with armchair experts. This week is Ferrari's turn. The wheel turns.
How often have you seen a driver (like MS) do something where at first you think, "OMW! What is he thinking!?"
...then 5 mins later, he looks absolutely brilliant.
The armchair experts all say, "The others were just slow not to do that earlier, IMHO"

BDunnell
7th July 2008, 13:44
Last week was Ron's turn to put up with armchair experts. This week is Ferrari's turn. The wheel turns.
How often have you seen a driver (like MS) do something where at first you think, "OMW! What is he thinking!?"
...then 5 mins later, he looks absolutely brilliant.
The armchair experts all say, "The others were just slow not to do that earlier, IMHO"

:up:

Very well said.

ioan
7th July 2008, 13:57
- why not those responsible for strategy, who have after all got it right in 2008 more often than they've got it wrong?

I'm not sure that they got it right more often than not in 2008, and that's my problem.

And they only got it right when they had perfect conditions, in fact every time there were changing conditions they got it wrong. This is sub par performance in F1, and totally unacceptable from a top team, let alone the champions.

ioan
7th July 2008, 14:03
Anyway the drivers were real gentlemen and didn't point towards the team, even if they would have been totally entitled to it.



"I am disappointed, but I am equally aware that things could have been much worse," Raikkonen conceded.

"We had the possibility to win the race but we made a mistake at the first pit stop, keeping the same set of tyres, because we expected the track conditions to improve.

"It was a joint decision: we are a team and we win or lose together.

"Sometimes we make the wrong decisions. But I don't complain to the team and they don't complain to me."

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3788155,00.html


"There was so much aquaplaning that I couldn't stay straight," he said. "There were just so many mistakes and it is difficult to explain."
said Massa.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68942

They both steered clear of saying there were problems with their cars and set-ups.

I like that they are a strong and united team, but how long can they accept this situation?!

wedge
7th July 2008, 14:12
According to James Allen:


http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43283

In the six laps following that (first) pit stop Kimi went from three seconds behind Lewis to 42 seconds behind, but they couldn’t just pit again because he wouldn’t have been able to fuel to the finish if he had, so he was forced to stay out until he came within fuel range, which was lap 30.

So now we know how big the Ferrari fuel tank is.

ioan
7th July 2008, 14:19
Dear James Allen,

Changing tires and refueling one more time would have cost him less than 25 seconds instead of 42!

Hope you can do the maths at least.

The average F1 fan!

jens
7th July 2008, 14:47
I don't think you should expect perfection every time. Perfection is not only impossible to achieve, it's also boring in sport and diminishes the spectacle and interest for those of us who aren't rooting for anyone in particular.


Nobody is expecting Ferrari to be perfect, but the problem is they are getting it wrong wayyy too often. Do they really have poor meteorologists? Because the weather seems to always go the other way Ferrari expects it to be.

2008 Monaco - no tyres for Kimi with 3 mins before the start + Massa's strategy was made with the expectation that the track wouldn't dry.
2008 Australia - RšikkŲnen wasn't taken in during SC session and after a stop, spin or not, was forced to drop to the back anyway.
2007 Fuji - intermediate tyres in monsoon conditions. How dumb can a decision be?

Ferrari seems to have a good race only if the conditions are consistent and there are no safety cars. Then it's indeed a bit harder to make poor and costly decisions. It's already becoming too predictable that they get it wrong in more critical situations. Considering that Ferrari's car is good enough to have a comfortable 1-2 on the majority of the circuits, they should be running away with the titles. Ferrari's main strength is the best car over a full season. This is keeping them at the top of the championship. Wonder, what will happen if they don't have this strength any more - they could be in trouble if they continue throwing results away like this.

Ranger
7th July 2008, 14:53
Dear James Allen,

Changing tires and refueling one more time would have cost him less than 25 seconds instead of 42!

Hope you can do the maths at least.

The average F1 fan!

His comments make absolute sense, I don't know what you're on about.

ioan
7th July 2008, 15:09
His comments make absolute sense, I don't know what you're on about.

I see there are people who can't do simple Maths.

Cheers :s mokin:

wedge
7th July 2008, 15:41
I think Ioan misread the quote.

The point is they couldn't bring Kimi sooner was because they wanted to fill the the brim and supposedly the Ferrari fuel tank was large enough to go 30 laps at Silverstone.

The gap between Kimi and Lewis had grown to 42s at one point, so I'm not sure what Ioan's issue with JA is.

ioan
7th July 2008, 16:17
I think Ioan misread the quote.

The point is they couldn't bring Kimi sooner was because they wanted to fill the the brim and supposedly the Ferrari fuel tank was large enough to go 30 laps at Silverstone.

The gap between Kimi and Lewis had grown to 42s at one point, so I'm not sure what Ioan's issue with JA is.

No I didn't!

The Ferraris had 1 stop done, and 1 more to go.
They made the wrong tire choice and were losing too much time every lap.

According to James Allen in six laps Kimi lost 42 seconds to Lewis. but they didn't bring him in because they couldn't have filled him to the end!

Those who know some Maths come along the rest don't bother.

If the team would have decided to change his tires after seeing that it was raining (it happened in the first lap after he left the pits) he would have come in stayed 4 seconds for a wheel change eventually a bit of fuel (but he was already fueled so no need for that) and out on the track on the right tires. It means he would have lost around 20 seconds ( I doubt it would have taken more given the configuration of the Silverstone pitlane), and than kept up the pace of Hamilton!

Now instead of losing 40 seconds during 6 laps on the wrong tires he would have only lost 20 seconds and would have had the same tires as the leader.

I suppose it wasn't that complicated to see that 20seconds is less lost time than 40 seconds! :rolleyes:

wedge
7th July 2008, 16:34
But if they brought him in earlier Kimi would still have to make another pitstop and you have no idea whether they would change to full wets or not - knowing Ferrari they probably would've gone for the former.

ioan
7th July 2008, 17:01
But if they brought him in earlier Kimi would still have to make another pitstop and you have no idea whether they would change to full wets or not - knowing Ferrari they probably would've gone for the former.

Sure he had to make another pitstop, but that is irrelevant to the fact that they would have managed to lose 20 less seconds if they took a supplementary pitstop to correct their mistake with the tires.

I wasn't expecting such a low level of comprehension in a F1 forum.

wedge
7th July 2008, 17:25
Sure he had to make another pitstop, but that is irrelevant to the fact that they would have managed to lose 20 less seconds if they took a supplementary pitstop to correct their mistake with the tires.

I wasn't expecting such a low level of comprehension in a F1 forum.

Garry Walker many a time called you stupid, I'm quite tempted to repeat that statement.

It would've been marginal at best whether Kimi would've made up the lost time for pitting. Massa 3 stopped and lost 1:18 in the pits so a splash & dash for Kimi total pit time would in the region of over 70s.

Something you haven't taking into account is the reality that Kimi spun off a few times on inters on his final pit stop which meant he would've lost even more ground on Lewis.

Mickey T
7th July 2008, 18:36
ok, ferrari blew it, but so did renault, red bull and plenty of others.

to be fair to the ferrari strategists, it's much easier for someone like honda to gamble on what must have, to the rest of them, seemed like a high-risk strategy given conditions at the time.

they had nothing to lose. they had no pace, they had no track position, they could gamble because they were buggered anyway.

taking a risk (and getting out of sequence with your rivals) is a far bigger punt from second on the road than it is from 12th or wherever the hondas were.

not agreeing with ferrari, but the circumstances and risk involved for both teams were very different.

ioan
7th July 2008, 18:54
Garry Walker many a time called you stupid, I'm quite tempted to repeat that statement.

It would've been marginal at best whether Kimi would've made up the lost time for pitting. Massa 3 stopped and lost 1:18 in the pits so a splash & dash for Kimi total pit time would in the region of over 70s.

Something you haven't taking into account is the reality that Kimi spun off a few times on inters on his final pit stop which meant he would've lost even more ground on Lewis.

before calling others stupid try at least to reason a bit.

jens
7th July 2008, 19:57
I have to say that ioan's maths are right. ;) To make it more clear for others, then one simple comparison.
Let's assume a pitstop lasts for 25 seconds.
Strategy #1: Kimi lost 42 seconds with wrong tyres, then he made a pitstop (+25) = all in all a loss of 67 secs.
Strategy #2: Team had realized the mistake immediately and Kimi would have come in a lap later. Let's assume he lost 5 seconds on that lap with worn tyres. So let's add extra 25 secs with pitstop. And then later in the race he would have made one more pitstop for fuel and why not new tyres again (+25 for once more). All in all this is 55 seconds.

In addition the latter strategy would have been faster, because with the variant #1 he made his last stop in midrace and was filled with fuel until the end, so his pace suffered due to heavy fuel ballast. With strategy #2 he would have managed to make faster laptimes with lighter fuel load on board plus he would have had fresher tyres for the last stint.

Hope now it's clear.

ioan
7th July 2008, 20:08
I have to say that ioan's maths are right. ;) To make it more clear for others, then one simple comparison.
Let's assume a pitstop lasts for 25 seconds.
Strategy #1: Kimi lost 42 seconds with wrong tyres, then he made a pitstop (+25) = all in all a loss of 67 secs.
Strategy #2: Team had realized the mistake immediately and Kimi would have come in a lap later. Let's assume he lost 5 seconds on that lap with worn tyres. So let's add extra 25 secs with pitstop. And then later in the race he would have made one more pitstop for fuel and why not new tyres again (+25 for once more). All in all this is 55 seconds.

In addition the latter strategy would have been faster, because with the variant #1 he made his last stop in midrace and was filled with fuel until the end, so his pace suffered due to heavy fuel ballast. With strategy #2 he would have managed to make faster laptimes with lighter fuel load on board plus he would have had fresher tyres for the last stint.

Hope now it's clear.

Finally someone who understands Maths! ;)

Keep in mind that he only lost 2-3 seconds on the first lap after the pit stop and that a short pitstop for tire change would have only lost him 20 seconds, and he would have been at least 20 seconds up the road at the end.

Firstgear
7th July 2008, 21:00
ioan, your addition may be correct, but your logic uses the benefit of hindsight. After seeing Kimi lose a couple of seconds a lap after pitting, they must of been relying on the track drying very soon otherwise they would have brought him in. I think it should be their meteorologist taking the heat, not the strategist. Everybody else seemed to know it was going to rain - why did Ferrari think it was drying?

GP-M3
7th July 2008, 22:30
Lot of good points around here. First off this one... even the commentaors on FOX said 'rain predicted in five minutes' about a minute before Kimi pitted? WTF?

Also, I was cursing the screen when I saw everyone just sitting aroudn Kimi's car when they were refueling him... what an embarassment.

Finally, I agree with Ioan, they should have attempted something, and that means bringing Kimi in for fresh tires. They might even have put him on extreems for 10 laps, then bring him in for inters and fueled to the end. But to just let him flounder around for 10 laps made them all look like chumps.

Couldn't agree less with the conclusion of the original poster. Kimi was class, and sucked up the blame along with the team. MS was fantastic, but I'm quite happy with Kimi too.


ioan, your addition may be correct, but your logic uses the benefit of hindsight. After seeing Kimi lose a couple of seconds a lap after pitting, they must of been relying on the track drying very soon otherwise they would have brought him in. I think it should be their meteorologist taking the heat, not the strategist. Everybody else seemed to know it was going to rain - why did Ferrari think it was drying?

wedge
7th July 2008, 22:32
I have to say that ioan's maths are right. ;) To make it more clear for others, then one simple comparison.
Let's assume a pitstop lasts for 25 seconds.
Strategy #1: Kimi lost 42 seconds with wrong tyres, then he made a pitstop (+25) = all in all a loss of 67 secs.
Strategy #2: Team had realized the mistake immediately and Kimi would have come in a lap later. Let's assume he lost 5 seconds on that lap with worn tyres. So let's add extra 25 secs with pitstop. And then later in the race he would have made one more pitstop for fuel and why not new tyres again (+25 for once more). All in all this is 55 seconds.

5s is an optimistic number!

Kimi & Lewis come in on lap 21.

You have no idea how quick Ferrari team will react to a strategy change because on lap 23 Kimi was 4.6s behind then subsequently 9.8s, 15.1s, 21.8s, 30.3s, 34.8s, 42.1s.

As firstgear pointed out, the strategy would've worked if the conditions remained constant, but it was never constant. Kimi did a poor job and lost time from spinning off the road than Lewis did when the heavy showers came.

mstillhere
7th July 2008, 23:27
His comments make absolute sense, I don't know what you're on about.

James Allen is TOTALLY biased in his reports. No matter what he does, Lewis is the best driver that the whole world has ever seen. This time with reason (although Webber's start was a little puzzling for me - since despite leaving plenty of room to Lewis he did not even try to defend his position - but I digress) but also when he screws up. So, I don't think Alllen should be mentioned at all as a F1 expert since he only has eyes for Lewis.

Hawkmoon
8th July 2008, 01:28
When you consider that before the first stop Raikkonen was considerably faster than Hamilton and had closed the gap to less than a second I think it becomes clear why Ferrari didn't change the tyres. If the rain hadn't come then Raikkonen would almost certainly have passed Hamilton as the Brit's new inters wouldn't have lasted. So I have no problem with the initial decsion.

It's the decsion not to counter the increasing rain that I have a problem with. It became obvious that the rain was going to be a problem very quickly. At that point Ferrari should have changed Raikkonen's tyres. This would have stopped his time loss due to being on the wrong tyre. Sure, the pitstop would have cost time but it would have been about damage limitation at this point. It would have also put Raikkonen on the same tyres as Hamilton and the Finn had already demonstrated that he was quicker on those tyres than the Brit, especially as the tyres wore down.

I think Ferrari were lucky to get fourth as it could have been much worse. I think they lost 3 points only as I don't think that Raikkonen would have beaten Hamilton with the extra stop. I'm pretty sure he would have beaten Heidfeld and Barrichello though.

Considering the weekend I think Ferrari are pretty lucky to have a decent margin in the WCC an to have both their drivers tied for the WDC lead. It couls have been much, much worse.

ShiftingGears
8th July 2008, 02:23
Now instead of losing 40 seconds during 6 laps on the wrong tires he would have only lost 20 seconds and would have had the same tires as the leader.

That is not what Allen said. He said that if he had pitted after 6 laps on the wrong tyres he would have been 60 seconds behind. That is more or less the same amount of time that Kimi would've lost staying out there until lap 30.

40 + 20 = 60.

Simple maths and comprehension, ioan.

aryan
8th July 2008, 03:04
I think people are being a little harsh on Ferrari. Sunday's conditions were a lottery, and in those circumstances hindsight has made the team look chumps. Perhaps if Todt/Brawn were there they wouldn't have made the calls they did, who knows, but even they didn't get things right every time.

Look it's not just Silverstone. I can think of at least two more races now (Monaco, Istanbul) where they've thrown valuable points to the winds.

They need Brawn, and they know it.

ArrowsFA1
8th July 2008, 09:14
They need Brawn, and they know it.
Well, it's too late for that :)

The departure of people like Brawn who contributed enormously to Ferrari's success over the last few years was always going to have an effect. No team dominates F1 indefinately and as a great man once said "All Things Must Pass".

Luca's cracking the whip though:
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has urged his team and drivers to stop making "stupid" mistakes if they are to stay in contention for the world championship this season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68977

jas123f1
8th July 2008, 10:24
Ok its racing Ė but there have been too many mistakes by Ferrari now and one must agree that itís only with the good luck Ferrari still are on the top 3 with both drivers. Thank's to BMW Sauber .. and Hamilton .. :)

So I think that Stefano Domenicali has to take his responsibility NOW.
In this business itís not allowed to make so many mistakes during so short time. There is a risk for that things like that are affecting the "spirit" in the team if nothing happen. Itís not enough to say "Iím sorry" .. I can think that Luca di Montezemolo is not that pleased with the team just now. Maybe Jean Todt should be there during a couple of races in his old position so even Domenicali understand how serious business F1 is. Itís so easy to start to believe and think that "we are best"Ö and loose the exactness in the work and start to make simple mistakes .. itís a point of order..

ShiftingGears
8th July 2008, 10:45
Ok its racing – but there have been too many mistakes by Ferrari now and one must agree that it’s only with the good luck Ferrari still are on the top 3 with both drivers. Thank's to BMW Sauber .. and Hamilton .. :)

So I think that Stefano Domenicali has to take his responsibility NOW.
In this business it’s not allowed to make so many mistakes during so short time. There is a risk for that things like that are affecting the "spirit" in the team if nothing happen. It’s not enough to say "I’m sorry" .. I can think that Luca di Montezemolo is not that pleased with the team just now.

Wasn't Montezemolo pushing for the key positions to be taken by Italians, rather than the best people for the job, necessarily?

Ranger
8th July 2008, 11:11
before calling others stupid try at least to reason a bit.

He didn't call you stupid. He just insinuated you were. Just like you insinuated that I can't do maths. So get off the moral high horse.

The itv.com link wedge talked about uses the logic the team would have used. No team is just going to accept after 1 lap that a tyre choice is wrong, make their driver take a pit-stop and then plan to bring him in again. Especially with changing weather conditions. Especially since...


Strategy #2: Team had realized the mistake immediately and Kimi would have come in a lap later. Let's assume he lost 5 seconds on that lap with worn tyres. So let's add extra 25 secs with pitstop. And then later in the race he would have made one more pitstop for fuel and why not new tyres again (+25 for once more). All in all this is 55 seconds.

...no driver will immediately come back into the pits after only an out-lap on one set of tyres, unless the tyres are completely unsuitable (ie. a dry tyre in the wet, such as in Nurburgring last year). Kimi would have had to have done two laps on the same tyres anyway before judging whether to come back in. This would have lost him in the region of another 8 seconds. Even Lewis, who won by more than a minute, did one lap 20 seconds slower than Heidfeld after leaving the pits on new tyres. Maybe he should have come back into the pits on that lap if he didn't feel entirely comfortable. (or not).

Therefore, the advantages gained by taking another two pitstops are comparable to nothing, if not a deficit.

So I don't see anything wrong with Allen's statement. Especially considering that the set of tyres they would have put on in Kimi's final stop may have also been inadequate, so they may as well have fueled up to the finish for his second stop anyway.

In light of their problems, Ferrari did end up getting a respectable 4th place. So we are arguing about a point that is null.


The average F1 fan!
I sure hope the average F1 fan doesn't spend his time arguing on forums as well as deconstructing commentators' analyses with a fine-toothed comb! :D

ioan
8th July 2008, 13:58
Very poor post, I was expecting more from you. :rolleyes:

SGWilko
8th July 2008, 14:05
Very poor post, I was expecting more from you. :rolleyes:

Expect the unexpected!

ArrowsFA1
8th July 2008, 14:25
Expect the unexpected!
But never the Spanish Inquisition (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nHGOl-jfUK0&feature=related) :p

ioan
8th July 2008, 23:05
Here's someone who didn't like what he saw last Sunday. He's the big bad wolf:


"I hope we'll manage to win our eighth title in ten years," he was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport. "We will (manage it) if we don't carry on doing stupid things.

"Obviously I wasn't pleased with what I saw yesterday, but I hope it's a useful lesson. Knowing my men, I'm certain it is."

He also says Ferrari have missed out on too many good results so far this season and can't afford to throw away any more in the remaining races.

"We're at the half way point of the season and in the lead of the championship," he added. "But we've lost too many opportunities, so in the second half of the season we must not lose any more."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68977

ShiftingGears
9th July 2008, 04:09
That is not what Allen said. He said that if he had pitted after 6 laps on the wrong tyres he would have been 60 seconds behind. That is more or less the same amount of time that Kimi would've lost staying out there until lap 30.

40 + 20 = 60.

Simple maths and comprehension, ioan.

I see you have ignored this post, ioan.

Ranger
9th July 2008, 06:26
Very poor post, I was expecting more from you. :rolleyes:

Likewise, I was expecting a decent rebuttal to what I just said.

Note to self: Spend less time on internet arguing with walls.

Cheers!

ioan
9th July 2008, 10:06
I see you have ignored this post, ioan.

That's because If he would have pitted again after the first lap when they saw that they made the wrong decision than he wouldn't have lost the 40 seconds!
This was the main point in the whole thing. They should have acted as soon as they saw that it was a fault, and the 40+ seconds wouldn't have been lost on track, only 20 of them during the additional pitstop.

ioan
9th July 2008, 10:08
Likewise, I was expecting a decent rebuttal to what I just said.

Note to self: Spend less time on internet arguing with walls.

Cheers!

Come back when you get your basic Maths (like addition operations) sorted out. Trying to explain simple things to you is like talking to a black hole, everything vanishes, nothing comes out of it.

Cheers!

janneppi
9th July 2008, 10:46
Amazing, simply amazing. :(

Less bickering, more civilised discussing.

ioan
9th July 2008, 13:39
Amazing, simply amazing. :(

Less bickering, more civilised discussing.

I tried with Maths, it wasn't considered civilized enough. :(

ShiftingGears
9th July 2008, 14:04
That's because If he would have pitted again after the first lap when they saw that they made the wrong decision than he wouldn't have lost the 40 seconds!

This is not what Allen said, he said that was the choice after 6 laps into Kimi's stint, when it was very apparent (and not, for some reason, a fluke on Lewis' part) that they picked the wrong tyres.

ioan
9th July 2008, 14:14
This is not what Allen said, he said that was the choice after 6 laps into Kimi's stint, when it was very apparent (and not, for some reason, a fluke on Lewis' part) that they picked the wrong tyres.

JA said they chose not to pit him again after it was obvious their tire choice was wrong because he couldn't have gone to the end with a full tank. Which sadly might be what Ferrari's so called "strategist" might have been thinking too, instead of trying to find a better solution.
Honestly if it took the Ferrari team 6 laps to realize that their choice was completely wrong than they are even worse than I was thinking. ;)

wedge
9th July 2008, 14:27
Ioan thinks he can call the strategy on the basis of the first laps without waiting for a trend to develop.

After 6 laps is a reasonable number but by that time you either decide to pit then or wait for your long stint window, which was 9 laps after the first stop.

It's a team effort. Ross called for 3 stopper and Schumi would have to do 4 flawless banzai stints.

Looking back on Kimi efforts in the rain whilst running on inters, he was flawed! Whether Ferrari would've changed to full wets or not - though probably the latter because they left Massa looking stupid all day.

ioan
9th July 2008, 15:46
Ioan thinks he can call the strategy on the basis of the first laps without waiting for a trend to develop.

He lost 3 seconds on the first lap and was raining more and more.

wedge
9th July 2008, 16:10
But that's not a disaster given the conditions, Kimi was 0.7s quicker than Lewis in the damp.

Disaster is when you lose 6s a lap in the wet.

Kimi would've thought the car and tyres were OK. It would take a few laps to realise he'd struggling and losing time and the team made a mistake.

Bagwan
9th July 2008, 16:43
OK , I can't stand it any longer .

Can we change the thread title to read "stupidity" , rather than "stupity" .

Whew , I feel better now .

schmenke
9th July 2008, 17:31
OK , I can't stand it any longer .

Can we change the thread title to read "stupidity" , rather than "stupity" .

Whew , I feel better now .

But how many seconds would that take?













:mark:

F1boat
9th July 2008, 18:39
Well, maybe it is because of the many mistakes of Lewis and Ferrari that the championship is so interesting.

truefan72
9th July 2008, 19:21
often times in F1 teams get more preoccupied with looking over their shoulder than going with conventional thinking.

I think the order of pits was Alonso then Kimi, then Webber, then Massa

Alonso came in first and took a gamble on staying on the same tires
That's their right to do, they aren't chasing a championship and are willing to take major risks with potential payoffs. They also have a world calss driver in that car with excellent race craft.

Ferrari, foolishly got caught up looking over their shoulder and thinking that If Alonso can do that, so can Kimi. If he is able to manage his tyres in such a fashion as to pull out 15-17 more laps out of them then so can they.
They figured to gamble on the same process and pretty much destroyed kimi's race, who, mind you,was probably poised to take the lead from LH.

Then the Red Bull's sawe what those two did and figured the same could apply to their car and driver. Now, they can take a bit of a gamble since Webber botched the start and spun, but It never looked like the right decision.

Massa,came in and they literally gave him the same strategy, where common sense would have been to put him on a different tyre strategy, in case the first one blew up in their faces.

I do believe that Alonso has a lot of input in his race strategy. I'm not sure he made the call, but he definitely would be privy to the decisions

As for Ferrari and Webber, do the drivers have any say as to the decisions, or where they caught off guard by the teams actions.

mstillhere
9th July 2008, 20:37
Wasn't Montezemolo pushing for the key positions to be taken by Italians, rather than the best people for the job, necessarily?

I am a little confused here. Are you saying that these people, who happen to be Italian, made stupid mistakes or that they made stupid mistakes because they are Italian? Would care to clarify that for me, please?

jas123f1
9th July 2008, 23:33
Wasn't pushing for the key positions to be taken by Italians, rather than the best people for the job, necessarily?

Of course Montezemolo have his finger in everything important what happen in Ferrari and there is nothing wrong with that. :up: I personally also think Domenicali is the man for it but he must decide what he has to do for the future and do it latest in a couple of weeks - as sooner as better. . When looking back for the season, Ferrari had the best car and one of the best drivers in F1 Ė in Kimi - and he should be in the relatively big lead at present time if everything went as one in normal case can wait.

Now I believe that it will be harder against both McLaren and BMW Sauber under the rest of the season. So if Ferrari doesnít make less mistakes and even better job in some cases (strategy i.g.) then they will newer get the WDC-title for this year... thatís my opinion of it anyway.. :)

mstillhere
10th July 2008, 01:51
I am pleased to see that both Monty and I used the same adjective to describe what Ferrari did in Silverstone: STUPID!!
I also would like you guys to give credit to both Ian and I for not being biased (and I am saying this without Ian's consent - for which I humbly ask forgiveness-) and for being honest enough to call what Ferrari did for what it was. Nor we are looking for any excuse to justify their poor decisions.
I TRULY hope that from now on they will show they learned their lesson.
PS I am sure it would help of course if it would not rain anymore :)

ShiftingGears
10th July 2008, 01:59
I am a little confused here. Are you saying that these people, who happen to be Italian, made stupid mistakes or that they made stupid mistakes because they are Italian? Would care to clarify that for me, please?

I remember reading that Montezemolo was pushing for the best Italians to have the main positions at Ferrari, who aren't necessarily the best people for the job. I was wanting to get that clarified.

mstillhere
10th July 2008, 03:09
I remember reading that Montezemolo was pushing for the best Italians to have the main positions at Ferrari, who aren't necessarily the best people for the job. I was wanting to get that clarified.

To be honest, despite the fact that I read F1 news continuously, from any country in many languages, I have to admit that I don't recall ever reading or hearing Montezemolo saying that he wanted to have Italians specifically at the helm of the team. Based on facts, everybody knows that Ferrari is made out of a very multinational group of professionals (who occasionally screw up - that's true too). And it has been like that for many years. Would you be so kind to share with me or us where you could have gotten this information from? Thank you very much. I would truly appreciate that.

ShiftingGears
10th July 2008, 03:47
Would you be so kind to share with me or us where you could have gotten this information from?

No. That is why I asked the question. :p :

truefan72
10th July 2008, 08:30
To be honest, despite the fact that I read F1 news continuously, from any country in many languages, I have to admit that I don't recall ever reading or hearing Montezemolo saying that he wanted to have Italians specifically at the helm of the team. Based on facts, everybody knows that Ferrari is made out of a very multinational group of professionals (who occasionally screw up - that's true too). And it has been like that for many years. Would you be so kind to share with me or us where you could have gotten this information from? Thank you very much. I would truly appreciate that.

That information is common knowledge around the F1 circles, and the media. There have been well documented departures of key people from the team replaced by Italians etc.

This is by no means a slight on Italians, but a failure of executive management to continue on a successful path of employing the brightest and the best, regardless of nationality. That's why they had a German driver, with a British race engineer, and a French Team boss driving an Italian car.
It might also be a case of LdM engaging in a bit of corporate nepotism, and installing people he best trust to heed his decrees.

Finally, it is also a case of experience that is being sacrificed down this route. Ferrari were an impressive outfit for many years from top to bottom in F1. even in the two years of Renaults win's, they were right there and at least their race day strategies were never in question. Even last year's WCC & WDC victories had more to do with McLaren's blunders and the spygate saga than an outright accomplishment on their part.

F1boat
10th July 2008, 08:32
Still Ferrari is a top team. It is not the crushing team of the Schumacher era, but they are very good team. Maybe it's good for the sport that no team is perfect.

10th July 2008, 13:14
This is by no means a slight on Italians, but a failure of executive management to continue on a successful path of employing the brightest and the best, regardless of nationality. That's why they had a German driver, with a British race engineer, and a French Team boss driving an Italian car.

As opposed to now, where they have a Finnish driver engineered by an Australian and a Brazilian engineered by a Mancunian.

Sure, they have an Italian team boss, an Italian designer and an Italian strategist, but all three were tutored by the best in the business.

There have been more mistakes by Ferrari this season than in the heyday of the Schumi era, but no more than there have been at any other team.

It's not like Ferrari's main rivals have a spotless record when it comes down to it.

mstillhere
10th July 2008, 18:42
That information is common knowledge around the F1 circles, and the media. There have been well documented departures of key people from the team replaced by Italians etc.

This is by no means a slight on Italians, but a failure of executive management to continue on a successful path of employing the brightest and the best, regardless of nationality. That's why they had a German driver, with a British race engineer, and a French Team boss driving an Italian car.
It might also be a case of LdM engaging in a bit of corporate nepotism, and installing people he best trust to heed his decrees.

Finally, it is also a case of experience that is being sacrificed down this route. Ferrari were an impressive outfit for many years from top to bottom in F1. even in the two years of Renaults win's, they were right there and at least their race day strategies were never in question. Even last year's WCC & WDC victories had more to do with McLaren's blunders and the spygate saga than an outright accomplishment on their part.

What I would like to say is for everybody to be able to distinguish Ferrari as a "scuderia" from the jack asses that were put at the helm of this Italian team. Because, as far as Ferrari goes, I am totally a Ferari supporter and that's never gpoing to change (yes I care more for the team than for the drivers). So, let's try not to put Ferrari on a trial, here. That's not the subject of this thread. What is being questioned hereb is the ability of the new crew to be able to deliver what they were hired for.
As far as Ferrari deliberately trying to put together a team for only Italians managers, I don't recall reading it anywhere (including Italian newspapers) - despite you saying that's common knowledge - which I guess I have to take it at face value-. (A link would be helpful)

truefan72
10th July 2008, 18:58
As opposed to now, where they have a Finnish driver engineered by an Australian and a Brazilian engineered by a Mancunian.

Sure, they have an Italian team boss, an Italian designer and an Italian strategist, but all three were tutored by the best in the business.

There have been more mistakes by Ferrari this season than in the heyday of the Schumi era, but no more than there have been at any other team.

It's not like Ferrari's main rivals have a spotless record when it comes down to it.

all valid points, but I dare say that the kind of mistakes they are making are egrious compared to a history of quality. Some those mistakes are down right blunders that a team and driver challenging for the WDC and wCC simply can't continue to make. I'm sure there are checks and balances over there, but so far,I haven't seen what kind of accountability is in place to keep all in check.

I like kimi and would like to see a straight up and down challenge to the WDC between he, LH. FM and RK, It should be won or lost by the performance on the track not because some race strategist decided to employ a useless strategy, or the re-fuelingthe car was forgotten, or the car was not setup for wet weather, ore loose lugnuts on the wheelcap.

ioan
11th July 2008, 11:01
My view of it is that doing worse than before isn't a sign of evolution, and this is worrying.

Whyzars
11th July 2008, 15:38
Still Ferrari is a top team.

I don't know what to make of Ferrari at the moment. A top team should have at least one car finish in the top three when both cars finish and this didn't happen on Sunday. It must be baffling for the powers that be at Ferrari.

Honda showed that results can be achieved through a great driver and great tactical decisions by the team (and a lot of luck) - the car surprisingly appeared to be the least important piece of the puzzle.

Forget trying to work out what Ferrari did that was wrong, I'm trying to work out what Honda did that was so right.

:)

Knock-on
11th July 2008, 16:55
My view of it is that doing worse than before isn't a sign of evolution, and this is worrying.


I see where you're coming from but have a slightly different view that I expressed a few years ago.

Ferrari have been top of the pile for some time now. They have had an amazing period of success but have plateaued. They will still move forward but not as fast as the opposition.

Why?

Well, F1 is cyclical. It has peaks and troughs and Ferrari have peaked for a long time now. However, it is very hard to continually innovate and fight from the front. It is almost easier for teams chasing to have a target to aim at, to focus on.

The cycle is mormally 2 to 3 years (as in renault) but Ferrari have been there or there abouts for 10 years.

I think they will not drop off exactly, but will not perform for a few years until they can get themselves together and start fighting again.

Of course, this is just opinion but if you look below, you will see that there is normally a couple of years of success before a bit of a break. Ferrari in the last 10 years seem to have bucked the trend.

Mike Hawthorn (Ferrari) 1958 Vanwall
Jack Brabham (Cooper-Climax) 1959 Cooper-Climax
Jack Brabham (Cooper-Climax) 1960 Cooper-Climax
Phil Hill (Ferrari) 1961 Ferrari
Graham Hill (BRM) 1962 BRM
Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax) 1963 Lotus-Climax
John Surtees (Ferrari) 1964 Ferrari
Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax) 1965 Lotus-Climax
Jack Brabham (Brabham-Repco) 1966 Brabham-Repco
Denny Hulme (Brabham-Repco) 1967 Brabham-Repco
Graham Hill (Lotus-Ford) 1968 Lotus-Ford
Jackie Stewart (Matra-Ford) 1969 Matra-Ford
Jochen Rindt (Lotus-Ford) 1970 Lotus-Ford
Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell-Ford) 1971 Tyrrell-Ford
Emerson Fittipaldi (Lotus-Ford) 1972 Lotus-Ford
Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell-Ford) 1973 Lotus-Ford
Emerson Fittipaldi (McLaren-Ford) 1974 McLaren-Ford
Niki Lauda (Ferrari) 1975 Ferrari
James Hunt (McLaren-Ford) 1976 Ferrari
Niki Lauda (Ferrari) 1977 Ferrari
Mario Andretti (Lotus-Ford) 1978 Lotus-Ford
Jody Scheckter (Ferrari) 1979 Ferrari
Alan Jones (Williams-Ford) 1980 Williams-Ford
Nelson Piquet (Brabham-Ford) 1981 Williams-Ford
Keke Rosberg (Williams-Ford) 1982 Ferrari
Nelson Piquet (Brabham-BMW) 1983 Ferrari
Niki Lauda (McLaren-TAG) 1984 McLaren-TAG
Alain Prost (McLaren-TAG) 1985 McLaren-TAG
Alain Prost (McLaren-TAG) 1986 Williams-Honda
Nelson Piquet (Williams-Honda) 1987 Williams-Honda
Ayrton Senna (McLaren-Honda) 1988 McLaren-Honda
Alain Prost (McLaren-Honda) 1989 McLaren-Honda
Ayrton Senna (McLaren-Honda) 1990 McLaren-Honda
Ayrton Senna (McLaren-Honda) 1991 McLaren-Honda
Nigel Mansell (Williams-Renault) 1992 Williams-Renault
Alain Prost (Williams-Renault) 1993 Williams-Renault
Michael Schumacher (Benetton-Ford) 1994 Williams-Renault
Michael Schumacher (Benetton-Renault) 1995 Benetton-Renault
Damon Hill (Williams-Renault) 1996 Williams-Renault
Jacques Villeneuve (Williams-Renault) 1997 Williams-Renault
Mika Hakkinen (McLaren-Mercedes) 1998 McLaren-Mercedes
Mika Hakkinen (McLaren-Mercedes) 1999 Ferrari
Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) 2000 Ferrari
Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) 2001 Ferrari
Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) 2002 Ferrari
Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) 2003 Ferrari
Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) 2004 Ferrari
Fernando Alonso (Renault) 2005 Renault
Fernando Alonso (Renault) 2006 Renault
Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) 2007 Ferrari

mstillhere
12th July 2008, 01:31
I like kimi and would like to see a straight up and down challenge to the WDC between he, LH. FM and RK, It should be won or lost by the performance on the track not because some race strategist decided to employ a useless strategy, or the re-fuelingthe car was forgotten, or the car was not setup for wet weather, ore loose lugnuts on the wheelcap.


As far as Kimi is concerned i am pretty sure he is not regretting switching teams. As soon as he did he became world champion after trying some times for so many years at McLaren.

F1boat
12th July 2008, 11:39
I don't know what to make of Ferrari at the moment. A top team should have at least one car finish in the top three when both cars finish and this didn't happen on Sunday. It must be baffling for the powers that be at Ferrari.

:)

Every team which is leading the series halfway trough the season is a top team. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. After Spanish GP, Mclaren are done, after Monaco - Ferrari. After France - it's over for McLaren, after GB - oh no, Ferrari are beaten.
This is ridiculous. In 2003 was the same, BTW.

ioan
12th July 2008, 11:41
I see where you're coming from but have a slightly different view that I expressed a few years ago.

Ferrari have been top of the pile for some time now. They have had an amazing period of success but have plateaued. They will still move forward but not as fast as the opposition.

Why?

Well, F1 is cyclical. It has peaks and troughs and Ferrari have peaked for a long time now. However, it is very hard to continually innovate and fight from the front. It is almost easier for teams chasing to have a target to aim at, to focus on.

I completely agree with you on the cyclical part of F1.

Ferrari had they technical downfall in 2005 and since than they managed to gradually improve in 2006 and 2007 , and I would say they managed to have a superior car again in 2008.

However it isn't this side I'm bothered with, as it is normal at this level that a small technical flaw at the beginning of the design process will destroy any chances for a whole season.

What I'm bothered is their strategy department, they are one of the worse on the grid, if not the worse. And in F1, no matter how good the car and the drivers are the wrong strategy will destroy your chances for a win.

Knock-on
14th July 2008, 11:25
I completely agree with you on the cyclical part of F1.

Ferrari had they technical downfall in 2005 and since than they managed to gradually improve in 2006 and 2007 , and I would say they managed to have a superior car again in 2008.

However it isn't this side I'm bothered with, as it is normal at this level that a small technical flaw at the beginning of the design process will destroy any chances for a whole season.

What I'm bothered is their strategy department, they are one of the worse on the grid, if not the worse. And in F1, no matter how good the car and the drivers are the wrong strategy will destroy your chances for a win.

I think you're correct.

Again, it's always easier chasing than leading and when you lose that forward momentum, it's a hard job getting back to speed.

ArrowsFA1
20th July 2008, 10:24
Had McLaren won the WDC & WCC in 2007 then that would have been three years and no titles for Ferrari. Would that have raised more probing questions about the team and what they needed to do to get back to championship winning ways?

Obviously we're talking about small margins here because Ferrari are hardly uncompetitive :D but as ioan points out they have made a mess of a few things recently.

jas123f1
20th July 2008, 21:09
Had McLaren won the WDC & WCC in 2007 then that would have been three years and no titles for Ferrari. Would that have raised more probing questions about the team and what they needed to do to get back to championship winning ways?

When looking to the "not so good" Ferrari situation today, it seams that it's not depending only of some temporary mistakes; somehow it seems to me that the "Ferrari-spirit" is not today the same as last year. Possible people have forgotten how difficult it's to be a Champion and are focusing on wrong things..
Sometimes I also get a fanny feeling that when Schumi is there "helping the team" its good for Felipe - but not necessarily for Kimi. Itís naturally because Schumi and Felipe were working together a long time which make their driving quite similar Ė as Schumi was (is?) Felipeís teacher and idol - Felipe try more or less copy everything what Schumi was Ė but unfortunately that time has gone (it really was cone all ready when Schumi still was driving) - and however a copy will newer be as good as the original Ė Felipe is good .. but not good enough to beat Hamilton.. thatís the point.
I believe that if Ferrari wants to win the driver championships for 2008 Ė they must make the same as McLaren are doing Ė and what Ferrari was made in end of the last season Ė put everything to one driver and in that case it must be Kimi. The question is if they will do it before itís too late. Imo - it would be "quite fanny" if Schumacher is there helping the team and McLaren takes both titles. :)

ioan
20th July 2008, 21:25
When looking to the "not so good" Ferrari situation today, it seams that it's not depending only of some temporary mistakes; somehow it seems to me that the "Ferrari-spirit" is not today the same as last year. Possible people have forgotten how difficult it's to be a Champion and are focusing on wrong things..
Sometimes I also get a fanny feeling that when Schumi is there "helping the team" its good for Felipe - but not necessarily for Kimi. Itís naturally because Schumi and Felipe were working together a long time which make their driving quite similar Ė as Schumi was (is?) Felipeís teacher and idol - Felipe try more or less copy everything what Schumi was Ė but unfortunately that time has gone (it really was cone all ready when Schumi still was driving) - and however a copy will newer be as good as the original Ė Felipe is good .. but not good enough to beat Hamilton.. thatís the point.
I believe that if Ferrari wants to win the driver championships for 2008 Ė they must make the same as McLaren are doing Ė and what Ferrari was made in end of the last season Ė put everything to one driver and in that case it must be Kimi. The question is if they will do it before itís too late. Imo - it would be "quite fanny" if Schumacher is there helping the team and McLaren takes both titles. :)

Kimi isn't good enough to beat Felipe, so how would he be good enough to beat Hamilton.

Back to Ferrari, Kimi reckons that McLaren have the faster car (it was in Silverstone and it is again here).

Let's see what Hungary brings now.

jas123f1
20th July 2008, 23:03
Ok - if Massa IS good enough to beat Kimi - that's ok for me, but i don't believe it's possible if the car is more suitable to Kimi than it was today. I think that Schumi was there helping to analyse the test results and it means automatically that the car is more after Massas driving - because Schumi and he has the "Schumi style" .. I can also think that the Team feels that Massa deserve a WDC-title after a long and very devoted time to the Ferrari team, the problem is only that he is not good enough.. Felipe and Kimi have a different driving and when the testing is analysed it must be for one of them -with a compromise is not possible to win titles. Itís easy to see that McLaren are fitting their car basically to Hamilton and I don't believe that Massa is a man to beat him today. Kimi possible - with a top car .. but I think it will be difficult also for him.. It looks today more that Lewis are going against his first WDC_title.. we can't wait that he will make same mistakes than last year.. he is not a rookie any more. He really is fantastic driver who has a fantastic car and whatís most important 100 % of the team behind him ..

That's my opinion of it anyway. :)

wedge
20th July 2008, 23:49
I think that Schumi was there helping to analyse the test results and it means automatically that the car is more after Massas driving - because Schumi and he has the "Schumi style" ..

That's my opinion of it anyway. :)

Schumi and Massa have slightly different styles.

Schumi and Kimi are more similar, brake very late into corner and; brake and steer onto the apex; more front downforce so they can use throttle to modulate corner speed.

Massa is different. He doesn't trail brake. Instead he prefer a bit of mid corner understeer so he can carry speed into the corner.

jens
21st July 2008, 00:18
It has been rumoured that in creating a new post-Team MS Ferrari there has been too much emphasis on promoting Italians to key positions. In order to be the best you need the best specialists all over the world, not from the same country. Domenicali < Todt - quite clearly. Also arguably one of the responsible persons behind Ferrari's poor strategies has been Baldissieri. Besides this the car development department is struggling a bit too to keep up the development rate of rival teams. 2009 could prove to be a difficult year for Ferrari.

mstillhere
21st July 2008, 01:03
It has been rumoured that in creating a new post-Team MS Ferrari there has been too much emphasis on promoting Italians to key positions. In order to be the best you need the best specialists all over the world, not from the same country. Domenicali < Todt - quite clearly. Also arguably one of the responsible persons behind Ferrari's poor strategies has been Baldissieri. Besides this the car development department is struggling a bit too to keep up the development rate of rival teams. 2009 could prove to be a difficult year for Ferrari.

Here we go again. You are the second guy (?) saying that. I am asking you, as I did before to provide a link. I also mentioned that I avidly read F1 news everyday and don't recall ever seen any news about Montezemolo (?) wanting to create a team run ONLY BY ITALIAN MANAGERS. I never saw it. Can you share with us the source or your information? Please?

Valve Bounce
21st July 2008, 01:50
It has been rumoured that in creating a new post-Team MS Ferrari there has been too much emphasis on promoting Italians to key positions. In order to be the best you need the best specialists all over the world, not from the same country. Domenicali < Todt - quite clearly. Also arguably one of the responsible persons behind Ferrari's poor strategies has been Baldissieri. Besides this the car development department is struggling a bit too to keep up the development rate of rival teams. 2009 could prove to be a difficult year for Ferrari.

Maybe they could get some e-mails from McLaren to help them out :p : :D :rotflmao:

osg
21st July 2008, 02:12
Either way..... i don't think you would have seen Kimi pull over like Massa did to let Hamilton past.... that was woeful. Nice of Ferrari to compromise Kimi's race by queueing him up behind felipe as well....

jens
21st July 2008, 10:25
Here we go again. You are the second guy (?) saying that. I am asking you, as I did before to provide a link. I also mentioned that I avidly read F1 news everyday and don't recall ever seen any news about Montezemolo (?) wanting to create a team run ONLY BY ITALIAN MANAGERS. I never saw it. Can you share with us the source or your information? Please?

Oh, you want links. I haven't seeked for them. :p : I'm just looking at evidence. Well surely they can't change every worker in the team to Italian, because then the team would be way too mislead. But what we are seeing there are more Italians in key positions than there was before. I don't know if it is needed to be confirmed in the media, what is their strategy in composing team personnel.

SGWilko
21st July 2008, 11:46
Domenicali < Todt - quite clearly.

Look, all of the top teams have made screw ups. Don't level the blame at Stefano's door. The buck stops with Luca.

faye
21st July 2008, 12:08
the situation must be temporary. they were embarassed these days,but everything will be ok.....

ioan
21st July 2008, 20:43
Either way..... i don't think you would have seen Kimi pull over like Massa did to let Hamilton past.... that was woeful.

Take a look at last seasons Italian GP! You will see how Hamilton went by Kimi, even easier as yesterday with Felipe! :D

jas123f1
21st July 2008, 21:45
Take a look at last seasons Italian GP! You will see how Hamilton went by Kimi, even easier as yesterday with Felipe! :D

However - if Massa likes to be the Champion for 2008 - he have to fight more. :)

mstillhere
21st July 2008, 22:52
Oh, you want links. I haven't seeked for them. :p : I'm just looking at evidence. Well surely they can't change every worker in the team to Italian, because then the team would be way too mislead. But what we are seeing there are more Italians in key positions than there was before. I don't know if it is needed to be confirmed in the media, what is their strategy in composing team personnel.

Ok, then. Since you are making things up for the sheer pleasure to be malicious, I am not going to take your statements seriously. From now on everybody, don't bother backing up your statements with links or objective data, we will just take anything you say to be true and correct just because you said so.

Knock-on
22nd July 2008, 09:15
Ok, then. Since you are making things up for the sheer pleasure to be malicious, I am not going to take your statements seriously. From now on everybody, don't bother backing up your statements with links or objective data, we will just take anything you say to be true and correct just because you said so.

Why so agressive?

All he says is that it seems like it's the case from what he sees.

Blimey, don't you start a Holy Crusade like Tamburello was waged against Arrows :laugh:

ioan
22nd July 2008, 11:39
I believe that Ferrari lost out on Ross Brawn exactly because they were going to give the highest position to Domenicali and not Brawn, after Todt retired.

I also saw that as a move to favor an Italian over the clearly better English counterpart.

I'll continue to support Ferrari even if they fall back from the top (mainly because of their excellent history), but it doesn't mean that I'll be happy with their way of doing things.

Knock-on
22nd July 2008, 11:47
I believe that Ferrari lost out on Ross Brawn exactly because they were going to give the highest position to Domenicali and not Brawn, after Todt retired.

I also saw that as a move to favor an Italian over the clearly better English counterpart.

I'll continue to support Ferrari even if they fall back from the top (mainly because of their excellent history), but it doesn't mean that I'll be happy with their way of doing things.

Pretty much how I see it as well.

Ferrari have too much history and passion to fail. They will get their house in order but it will take a bit of time.

Brawn was a big loss but as long as they don't implode, they will soon bounce back.

ioan
22nd July 2008, 12:57
Pretty much how I see it as well.

Ferrari have too much history and passion to fail. They will get their house in order but it will take a bit of time.

Brawn was a big loss but as long as they don't implode, they will soon bounce back.

I don't know how fast will they bounce back. They don't seem to have the team management needed for that.

Last time they fall back it took them 15 years to get the right team together. :s

ArrowsFA1
22nd July 2008, 13:49
Last time they fall back it took them 15 years to get the right team together. :s
I can't see that happening again. Todt et al put a very strong structure in place, and there are still very good people at Maranello who are doing a very good job.

ioan
22nd July 2008, 14:58
I can't see that happening again. Todt et al put a very strong structure in place, and there are still very good people at Maranello who are doing a very good job.

Maybe the guys who clean the floor, cause the racing team is going backwards.

jens
23rd July 2008, 18:48
We can't talk about "bouncing back" at the moment, because Ferrari is still a top team in title contention. At the moment it's hard to rise to anywhere, it's easier to fall.


Ok, then. Since you are making things up for the sheer pleasure to be malicious, I am not going to take your statements seriously. From now on everybody, don't bother backing up your statements with links or objective data, we will just take anything you say to be true and correct just because you said so.

I can't understand, what kind of "proof" do you want?! Team principal - Domenicali (Italian), chief designer - Costa (Italian), chief track engineer - Baldissieri (Italian), operations director - Almondo (Italian). Isn't that enough for you to notice changes towards Italian-based Ferrari?

ArrowsFA1
29th July 2008, 17:34
"Despite the fact the last two races have been negative for us, the Scuderia is definitely not in crisis," said Domenicali. "The team is still leading the constructors' championship and theoretically, one of our drivers could again be back at the top of the drivers' classification on Sunday night.

"We are on a similar points tally to last year, we have won half the races so far and indeed, taken half the pole positions. Just as we never felt we were unbeatable after our French GP victory, so too, we do not feel all is lost after the British and German events.

"The entire squad is doing its best to overturn this situation. We have come from behind before and in fact, we have emerged as the top team at the end of the season, having been in much greater difficulty than we are now.

"If we look at where Ferrari was in 2007 after ten races, today we are in a much better position and this year, there is one more race than last, which gives us even more opportunities to fight back."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69511

ioan
29th July 2008, 17:46
If they continue this way than soon "the team" will not be leading the constructors championship either.
I'm curious what else positive will Domenicali find to say when that happens. he clearly isn't the team leader that Ferrari needs, he's not even half as good as Jean Todt.

jas123f1
29th July 2008, 20:10
Maybe the team is engaged too much in some kind of personal politics.. maybe not - I donít know.. however Domenicali is the boss and he must take the responsibility for all decisions in the team now, so i only hope that it will go as good as it canÖ

Imo is Kimi the better driver in the team - even if Massa is nearly as good as him - above all Kimi is much cooler during difficult conditions.. so the question is - will any of them be the title-winner for 2008 Ė and it looks not that good at the moment..

If one of Ferrari driver will take the title, then also the team possible win the WCC title - therefore my opinion is that the best way for he team is to let Kimi be a first driver in the team.. (app. like Schumi was before and Lewis is today at McLaren). I think itís necessary if Ferrari like to have any chance against Lewis .. Of course - I can think that Massa get the first driver status too - but it would be better for Ferrari with Kimi.

However to take a decision itís the job for Domenicali Ė and he must take it now, because everything takes time and time is short.. He must choose a right strategy for the team and keep it in too end - or maybe he all ready has made it ??

I really hope that Domenicali can fix it for his team, but Iím not sure that he can..

:)

mstillhere
29th July 2008, 23:07
Good news everybody, Kimi said that in Hungary Ferrari will end the "black period" started in GB. I wonder what would make him to say that: the new fin? Is it that good?

ioan
29th July 2008, 23:32
If one of Ferrari driver will take the title, then also the team possible win the WCC title - therefore my opinion is that the best way for he team is to let Kimi be a first driver in the team.. (app. like Schumi was before and Lewis is today at McLaren). I think itís necessary if Ferrari like to have any chance against Lewis .. Of course - I can think that Massa get the first driver status too - but it would be better for Ferrari with Kimi.

Kimi is not really managing to beat Massa in normal conditions these days, so if Ferrari went for him as no.1 they would lose, no question about it.

I'm all for equal drivers until one has no more chances to the title. Then they can support one of them over the other.

Viktory
29th July 2008, 23:41
Good news everybody, Kimi said that in Hungary Ferrari will end the "black period" started in GB. I wonder what would make him to say that: the new fin? Is it that good?

I guess the finn needed a fin :p

jso1985
30th July 2008, 01:39
I'm all for equal drivers until one has no more chances to the title. Then they can support one of them over the other.

:up:

I really don't understand the big fuss about "a team must have a number 1 driver since the start of the season"

having no number 1 driver worked for Ferrari last year, it was even kinda working for McLaren until the big mess happened.

jas123f1
30th July 2008, 11:01
Kimi is not really managing to beat Massa in normal conditions these days, so if Ferrari went for him as no.1 they would lose, no question about it.

I have not the same opinion - but itís no great matter.
And i can even agree with you if we are speaking about racing in good conditions and Massa starting from pole - but as it is - racing are not only sunshine..

I like Massa Ė he is a nice guy and loyal and good friend even in his racing, so I have absolutely nothing against him or if he would be next WDC.

:)

ioan
30th July 2008, 12:00
I have not the same opinion - but it’s no great matter.
And i can even agree with you if we are speaking about racing in good conditions and Massa starting from pole - but as it is - racing are not only sunshine..

I like Massa – he is a nice guy and loyal and good friend even in his racing, so I have absolutely nothing against him or if he would be next WDC.

:)

Sunshine or not Massa is leading Raikkonen and he's constantly faster and qualifying in front of him.

If Kimi will come out on top than so be it I'll be happy as I'm a ferrari fan first of all, but not because the team decide to support him while he can't beat his teammate.

Knock-on
30th July 2008, 13:15
What I don't understand is all the doom and gloom emminating from the Ferrari fans :confused:

Ferrari have (argueably) the best car out there still but are struggling with setting it up/poor decision making/drivers (delete as necessary) but are still very strong and winning the Constructors by a large amount.

So, you're not romping it but I really fail to see why there's such depression and not excitement about the close competition?

Blimey, you should try supporting Honda and Button :D

555-04Q2
30th July 2008, 13:27
I have not the same opinion - but itís no great matter.
And i can even agree with you if we are speaking about racing in good conditions and Massa starting from pole - but as it is - racing are not only sunshine..

I like Massa Ė he is a nice guy and loyal and good friend even in his racing, so I have absolutely nothing against him or if he would be next WDC.

:)

Dont know about that. Massa has failed to pick up points in three races, Kimi in only two yet Massa is ahead in the WDC. That shows who has had stronger race performances this year. Yes he won the WDC last year, but Kimi has not been the dominant MS replacement everyone boasted about at the end of 2006. If anything, he should be whipping Massa as he is settled in the team now.

555-04Q2
30th July 2008, 13:28
Blimey, you should try supporting Honda and Button :D

Some of us are more fortunate than others :p :

ioan
30th July 2008, 13:40
Blimey, you should try supporting Honda and Button :D

We'll leave you the pleasure to continue doing that! :D

jas123f1
31st July 2008, 10:18
Sunshine or not Massa is leading Raikkonen and he's constantly faster and qualifying in front of him.

If Kimi will come out on top than so be it I'll be happy as I'm a ferrari fan first of all, but not because the team decide to support him while he can't beat his teammate.

Ok :) will see - I'm happy with Massa too. But i think Kimi will be WDC if any of them.