Is this Mark Webbers last contract.

[DezinerPaul]

It seems as though Red Bull have signed MW for a one year extension on his contract. This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations. When he leaves F1, wonder how many years it will be, before another ANZAC gets a chance at F1. My guess is that his inability to deliver, will have a real negative effect on any future ANZAC hopefuls, simply because they are not as marketable

[jens]

Umm. Mr Bolton had a similar view that Mark Webber is a failure. :p :

(I'm not going to mention anything else at the moment)

---

Oh, actually I am.
I guess your reasoning for describing him as a "failure" has probably something to do with 'statistics'?

[yodasarmpit]

Up until this season I would have agreed, I honestly believed he was highly over-rated.
However he has shone this year and I hope to see some improvement again.

[DezinerPaul]

Umm. Mr Bolton had a similar view that Mark Webber is a failure. :p :

(I'm not going to mention anything else at the moment)

---

Oh, actually I am.
I guess your reasoning for describing him as a "failure" has probably something to do with 'statistics'?

I said "This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations." Anybody being honest and objective would agree with that statement. So what is your problem?

[Whyzars]

It seems as though Red Bull have signed MW for a one year extension on his contract. This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations.

Which expectations would they be? Webber is one driver who can be relied on to deliver what his car is capable of with consistency. It may very well be that Webber is lost to F1 but that will not be because of any failure as a driver.

F1 is a two car category, one sometimes, and we shouldn't be so quick to condemn drivers for not winning in second and third string cars that are simply not up to the task.

Personally I think you just wanted to use the acronym ANZAC in a post even though Mark Webber is not a soldier and does not have any link to New Zealand but thats just my humble opinion. An arguably more accurate way to describe a driver from Down Under would be antipodean...

;)

[Robinho]

honestly and objectively i disagree with you.

i agree he has not necessarily had the results his reputation suggests he should, but then he has "lucked" out of being in the right seat at the right time, like many drivers before and many more that will come.

maybe if he is/was that good he would have been in a top seat by now, maybe he'll still get a chance a prove a few people wrong.

personally, i think that he is one of the few drivers, who given an above average car, can really punch above his weight, something i think we are seeing to some extent this season - he's probably driving as well as ever and the car is holding together.

fair enough if you don't agree - you're entitled to your opinion, and to be fair you do argue yours, but it doesn't necessarily make it fact

[jens]

I said "This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations." Anybody being honest and objective would agree with that statement. So what is your problem?

Depends, how do you define "failure". If you base the definition on results, then yes 2 podiums is hardly a fantastic achievement. I'm having hard time in trying to recall, what were the exact expectations on him at the start of his career. Did anyone expect him to win a WDC for sure one day? Maybe. Maybe he was expected to achieve at least more than a couple of podiums. Basically Webber has been rated throughout of his career like "a talented driver and if he gets a good car, he might become a serious top contender". The latter has never happened. He has pretty much fulfilled expectations in average cars, but we have never seen, how would he perform in a top car in relation to expectations (surely I've been using that word too much).

About the contract too. I thought Webber will sign a 2-year-deal and commit himself more to the team with the hope of a breakthrough. But what does a 1-year-deal indicate? As the contracts of several drivers will be up after 2009, then Mark wants to keep his options open and maybe still has a hope that finally for 2010 he can get into top team?!

[JSH]

My guess is that his inability to deliver, will have a real negative effect on any future ANZAC hopefuls, simply because they are not as marketable

Does this mean you would also "guess" that Nick Heidfeld and Adrian Sutil's also lack of performance would have a negative effect on any other Germans getting into F1?

[keysersoze]

DenzingerPaul, your definition of a failure is flawed.

The only driver I rate as clearly better than Webber is Fernando Alonso.

I believe that if Webber was in a Ferrari, he would be as good as both Kimi and Felipe.

If he was in a McLaren, I think he would be even with Lewis, and better than Kova.

Given a BMW to work with, I think Mark could get similar results to Kubica, and be marginally better than Nick.

In a Toyota, I think he'd be even with Jarno (who is driving quite well lately) in qualifying, and superior to the Italian in the races.

Nico, another highly rated driver (FW recently called him "magic"), is about even with Mark, given Rosberg's tendency to occasionally have a lousy qualifying weekend.

[LeonBrooke]

Up until this season I would have agreed, I honestly believed he was highly over-rated.
However he has shone this year and I hope to see some improvement again.

I'm the same - I never really rated Webber until recently. Still, I think he's more a Giancarlo than a Fernando.

[stevie_gerrard]

I think personally this has been Webbers best season, i havent seen anyone be so consistent so far in the battle of the midpack, hes been scoring the points and thats all you can ask from him surely?? It's not like Heikki who hasnt scored many points recently in a superior car, hes working in a mid pack car and is doing a hell of a better job than team-mate Coulthard despite his 3rd place at Canada. I can see Martk staying around for a few more years yet, sorry to disappoint you.

[Rollo]

Did anyone expect him to win a WDC for sure one day? Maybe.

I didn't.



I just don't think that Mark Webber has enough mongrel in him to ever win a GP unless it's under circumstances like Alesi did. - 19th Jul 04 (old forums)




I have said this before and it appears as though history may yet prove me right. Mark Webber is simply too "nice" to operate in the world of F1. You might be supremely quick but unless you're also a total *******, no-one in this game is ever going to give you what you want. - 3rd Aug 06 (old forums)


I still don't rate Webber as being worthy enough to win a GP, for the very problem that he is such a nice person. I've seen him in the back of the pits being all cheery and talking to the public and his own engineers, but F1 simply doesn't work that way.

[DezinerPaul]

Which expectations would they be? Webber is one driver who can be relied on to deliver what his car is capable of with consistency. It may very well be that Webber is lost to F1 but that will not be because of any failure as a driver.

F1 is a two car category, one sometimes, and we shouldn't be so quick to condemn drivers for not winning in second and third string cars that are simply not up to the task.

Personally I think you just wanted to use the acronym ANZAC in a post even though Mark Webber is not a soldier and does not have any link to New Zealand but thats just my humble opinion. An arguably more accurate way to describe a driver from Down Under would be antipodean...

;)

Your understanding of the word ANZAC is not completely correct, yes the term finds it's roots in WW1, yet it is still a common term used in referring to those of the Southern Oceans.
When Mark W went into F1, the hope in Oz was that it would pave the way for other talented drivers, as it is perceived that the only way they can get a seat in F1, was on talent as they are not likely to get the backing of a huge corp, like so many from others do. When Webber drove so well in his first GP at home, expectations were that Oz had arrived and this would open the door for others. This has not been the case, he has made some mistakes and has not shown any signs of brilliance (except for in the wet)
Now he has been placed in the category of solid workman, the time when he was considered a real hopeful has passed him by.

[DezinerPaul]

DenzingerPaul, your definition of a failure is flawed.

The only driver I rate as clearly better than Webber is Fernando Alonso.

I believe that if Webber was in a Ferrari, he would be as good as both Kimi and Felipe.

If he was in a McLaren, I think he would be even with Lewis, and better than Kova.

Given a BMW to work with, I think Mark could get similar results to Kubica, and be marginally better than Nick.

In a Toyota, I think he'd be even with Jarno (who is driving quite well lately) in qualifying, and superior to the Italian in the races.

Nico, another highly rated driver (FW recently called him "magic"), is about even with Mark, given Rosberg's tendency to occasionally have a lousy qualifying weekend.


You know you said the words "I think" way too many times, it matters not what we think, the facts are clear, he has not lived up to the expectations placed on him. Blame it on the car if you wish but he has not delivered.

[Marshall]

Yeah but how do you define the expectations placed on him? By whom?

I reckon he's doing a pretty good job, especially this season. If he can keep putting in consistent performances like the ones we've seen this season, there is absolutely no reason why this should be Mark's last contract.

[DezinerPaul]

Yeah but how do you define the expectations placed on him? By whom?

I reckon he's doing a pretty good job, especially this season. If he can keep putting in consistent performances like the ones we've seen this season, there is absolutely no reason why this should be Mark's last contract.

The expectations with the Australian fan base. As I said you can blame it on the car, at the end of the day though, expectations have not been realized.

[ShiftingGears]

He's a brilliant driver, worthy of a top drive.

[aryan]

I said "This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations." Anybody being honest and objective would agree with that statement. So what is your problem?

So easy to think anybody being honest and objective should agree with you, isn't it?

Where he stnads right now in dirvers' championship in the machinery that he has, the fact that he and DC have pulled RBR into 4th place, and the number of point scoring races he has enjoyed this year would seriously contradict your statement.

Mark's stock has gone up a lot this year, and he is worthy of every praise he gets.

[maxu05]

Your understanding of the word ANZAC is not completely correct, yes the term finds it's roots in WW1, yet it is still a common term used in referring to those of the Southern Oceans.
When Mark W went into F1, the hope in Oz was that it would pave the way for other talented drivers, as it is perceived that the only way they can get a seat in F1, was on talent as they are not likely to get the backing of a huge corp, like so many from others do. When Webber drove so well in his first GP at home, expectations were that Oz had arrived and this would open the door for others. This has not been the case, he has made some mistakes and has not shown any signs of brilliance (except for in the wet)
Now he has been placed in the category of solid workman, the time when he was considered a real hopeful has passed him by.

Yes it is correct. ANZAC means Australian and New Zealand Army Corp. I served in the Australian Army for 8 years, and most diggers that I know would be offended to hear the Anzac name applied to anyone other than soldiers of the Australian Defence Force or the New Zealand Defence Force, or the services that support them in conflict or, in peace keeping missions such as The Australian and New Zealand Red Cross etc. To call a sport star an ANZAC is not appropriate IMO. No hard feelings by the way.

[ShiftingGears]

it is still a common term used in referring to those of the Southern Oceans.


No it is not.

[ioan]

Does this mean you would also "guess" that Nick Heidfeld and Adrian Sutil's also lack of performance would have a negative effect on any other Germans getting into F1?

Because MS wasn't successful enough to promote the German drivers image?! :D
Or is Vettel doing that bad?! :confused:

As for Sutill he did not damage at all by getting up to 4th while driving a Force India in Monaco! :p :

Point is that the same Nick Heidfeld you sample out for lacking performance has beaten a certain Mark Webber when both were driving for Williams.

Cheers!

BTW, Mark Webber certainly didn't live up to the expectations of his fans, whom were all expecting him to win race already for some time. He is for sure a good and solid performer, like many others.

[Dave B]

cxxxxxxxxxxxxxxccxcc

Sorry, I just dropped a crumb of toast on the keyboard. I decided to leave the resultant keystrokes in my post, because they're about as logical as anything else DezinerPaul's written so far.

Anyway. Webber. There's an old saying that you make your own luck, and to an extent that's been true. Perhaps he's been poorly advised or managed, but somehow he's always seemed to end up in the wrong car at the wrong time.

The debut 5th place for Minardi arguably did raise expectations to an unrealistic level but let's face it the team were hardly in a position to score regularly - especially as the points only went down to 6th back then.

His time with Williams was a disaster, their relationship with BMW just didn't work but they were in a trough and who knows how Mark would have done had he still been there - the car certainly has some pace.

This year he's put in a string of points finishes, seems to have no real problems with the car, and is currently 8th in the championship. Not bad for a bloke who keeps getting written off.

From personal experience he's also a thoroughly nice bloke, and one who does more than his fair share of charity work.

It makes total sense for Red Bull to extend his contract. With DC leaving, Mark will provide valuable continuity and technical expertise, as well as being a safe pair of hands to entrust with bringing the car home more often than not.

[ArrowsFA1]

I said "This guy has been a failure, in as much as he never lived up to expectations." Anybody being honest and objective would agree with that statement. So what is your problem?
What were the expectations of Webber in your view?

[Tumbo]

I like the way someone who is obviously not Australian expecting Australians not to find the incorrect usage of ANZAC at best irritating and to some offensive, the usage that you are talking about DezinerPaul is that someone exhibits the spirit of the ANZAC in DIRECT reference to WW1 and primarily what was seen during the battle of Gallipoli and by regiments such as the light horse brigade..........but this of course isn't a history lesson.

I'm not MW fan, for me he's been a second string driver who while worthy of a seat in F1 can only have excuses made for his performances for so long, yes he was unlucky in the timing of his moves to Jag (just on the up then Ford pull the plug) then across to Williams (Jag bought out by red bull and improve whereas Frank's team start the slide) then back to Jag/now RB (new car promising much but it is new car). For me it got irritating hearing the excuses as there are a number of drivers in the field clearly better than him BUT when you look at his performances overall and what he brings to a team in terms of experience, development, setup, race strategy and most importantly positive spin then he is deserving of a seat.

On any measure of performance he clearly ranks above half the drivers in the field atm and he's well older, doesn't have money backing him nor and more importantly did he come into the category at a young age, his learning curve has been better than most. While no he doesn't have a win and JB does at THIS point in time he's well ahead of him in terms of the championship and looks more likely to win on any weekend than honda's golden boy.

MW probably hasn't lived up to Australian expectations (though of course they were exceedingly high given his amazing 1st start - yes thanks to the crash but still 5th in a Minardi is not bad) and the fact that were it not for a faulty merc at le mans he may have ended up in McLaren and actually had a proper opportunity to show what he can do in a top tier car. however, i'm sure he has lived up to the expectations at Red Bull, his time at Jag was considered a success by the team they just couldn't provide a winning car (look back they heaped praise on him, one of the reasons he was able to slip back so smoothly into the RB last yr)................

there rant over lol

[ioan]

cxxxxxxxxxxxxxxccxcc

Sorry, I just dropped a crumb of toast on the keyboard. I decided to leave the resultant keystrokes in my post, because they're about as logical as anything else DezinerPaul's written so far.

This won't make you look better either. :rolleyes:

[Marshall]

He's lived up to my expectations. Never expected him to win a championship, but he's a solid midfield driver.

Your expectations are obviously different to mine.

[Dave B]

Don't care, ioan. I don't post here for the sake of my image.

[ioan]

Don't care, ioan. I don't post here for the sake of my image.

None of us does, I hope, however Paul isn't offending us, just expressing his negative views about certain teams and drivers.
Why not ignore his threads instead of attacking him?

[Dave B]

Believe me, I'm not offended by anything posted here by Paul or anybody else. As for ignoring his posts, tempting though it is to put him on my ignore list I do derive some amusement from reading them.

[aryan]

None of us does, I hope, however Paul isn't offending us, just expressing his negative views about certain teams and drivers.


The problem with his attitude isn't his opinion -- which he is more than welcome to express on a forum like this -- but his holier-than-thou attitude and that he expects everyone to agree with him.

He is not offending, but he is being offended by us not agreeing with him. There lies the issue.

Anyway, back to MW now.

Only if it wasn't for that damned Le Mans race and he would have ended up with a proper McLaren drive...

[ioan]

Anyway, back to MW now.

Only if it wasn't for that damned Le Mans race and he would have ended up with a proper McLaren drive...

And when you think that it was all Mercedes fault that they cars were becoming airborne.

[Whyzars]

Your understanding of the word ANZAC is not completely correct, yes the term finds it's roots in WW1, yet it is still a common term used in referring to those of the Southern Oceans.

No, its not actually.



When Mark W went into F1, the hope in Oz was that it would pave the way for other talented drivers

I would disagree with you on this point. Alan Jones blazed the trail previously and many before and since. Young Australian and New Zealand drivers have always perfected their craft in Britain and Europe. They call it a Contiki Tour. :)

Just because a far away country produces one great driver doesn't mean opportunities are then going to come to other drivers who speak the same unique variant of the Queen's English. I'm sure that Mark has helped plenty of people and hasn't restricted himself to a specific nationality or dialect.



When Webber drove so well in his first GP at home, expectations were that Oz had arrived and this would open the door for others.


I try to not have high expectations and thus I avoid disappointments.

As an Australian I was simply happy that an Aussie was driving a Minardi that was owned by an Aussie who made a shedload of money from some old planes he bought. :)


This has not been the case, he has made some mistakes and has not shown any signs of brilliance (except for in the wet)

:crazy:


Now he has been placed in the category of solid workman, the time when he was considered a real hopeful has passed him by.

I would love to be a member of that union. $$$$$ :)

I will go out on a limb and say that if Mark is as good in 2009 as he has been in 2008 then Red Bull won't be the only team he talks to for 2010.

[Knock-on]

Why anyone would use the term ANZAC to describe anything other than a member of the joint Aus and Kiwi armed forces is beyond me. You might as well refer to Lewis a Squaddie :rolleyes:

(NB, I do not mean to compare ANZACS to Squaddies but the innapropiate use of a military identity to define the origin of a driver :confused: )

It seems that our friend Paul just likes provoking negitive threads about drivers or teams he doesn't like for the sake of arguement. Next it will be that 1 Schumacher fan equates to 10 ANZACs :rolleyes:

Webber is an unlucky driver but when everything holds together, usually punches above his weight.

Is Paul a reincarnation of GW? Who knows, he can be as condescending but Garry was starting to mellow and even posted some thought provoking posts towards the end. Can't say the same about his (alledged) alter-ego.

What were the expectations of Webber in your view?

Miss World finalist?
X factor winner?
Solving a problem like Maria?

[Knock-on]

Miss World finalist?
X factor winner?
Solving a problem like Maria?

1. Never going to happen
2. May yet happen
3. Hasn't he already been there?

[SteveA]

No it is not.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ANZAC

(ref 3.)

[Knock-on]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ANZAC

(ref 3.)

It may say it and it's wrong IMHO.

ANZAC is a member of the Army Corp for NZ and AUS. Always has been.

Proper dictionary

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ANZAC

[SteveA]

Languages change. Webster should keep up!

[Jag_Warrior]

Originally Posted by keysersoze http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=499374#post499374)
DenzingerPaul, your definition of a failure is flawed.

The only driver I rate as clearly better than Webber is Fernando Alonso.

I believe that if Webber was in a Ferrari, he would be as good as both Kimi and Felipe.

If he was in a McLaren, I think he would be even with Lewis, and better than Kova.

Given a BMW to work with, I think Mark could get similar results to Kubica, and be marginally better than Nick.

In a Toyota, I think he'd be even with Jarno (who is driving quite well lately) in qualifying, and superior to the Italian in the races.

Nico, another highly rated driver (FW recently called him "magic"), is about even with Mark, given Rosberg's tendency to occasionally have a lousy qualifying weekend.



You know you said the words "I think" way too many times, it matters not what we think, the facts are clear, he has not lived up to the expectations placed on him. Blame it on the car if you wish but he has not delivered.

Yes, keysersoze, it matters not what we think. What matters are these expectations... which are of course, what people think. :confused: :rolleyes:

Yes, the "facts" are clear. Clear as mud...

[Tazio]

Languages change. Webster should keep up!What image does Oliver's Army portray?
In a split second you saw in your minds eye Elvis Costello. Then,
Civil injustice of the Seventies!
Then, the image of Cromwell :eek: :p :

[markabilly]

What image does Oliver's Army portray?
In a split second you saw in your minds eye Elvis Costello. Then,
Civil injustice of the Seventies!
Then, the image of Cromwell :eek: :p :

Cromwell? I don't remember him at all in F1....when did he drive?

but I always liked Mark, even if he also did not make much of a mark on F1, he was something of a throw back to when men were men.......but mark my words, mark still has something left, just not ever going to show it with the cars he has been given to drive

[cy bais]

MW's proved me wrong this year. I always consider him to be talented but whined too much (just my observations). This year he's getting the job done without too much talking or whining for that matter. Pleasantly surprised at his performance so far in 2008.

Cy

[Hondo]

The expectations with the Australian fan base. As I said you can blame it on the car, at the end of the day though, expectations have not been realized.

Perhaps the Australian fan base failed to meet Webber's expectations by not providing their own team or sponsorship of another team with enough cash to develop a truly top step, competitive car for him.

I like Mark Webber and think that overall he has delivered exactly what his equipment and strategy would allow. Sometimes more. Red Bull seems to think he's a pretty good deal and they are the ones signing the check.

[DezinerPaul]

ANZAC has will continue to be a term of solidarity and endearment for those from Oz and NZ, no matter what any of you say. As for what it means regarding Mark being in F1, it appears that there are some Australians that are out of touch with the general thinking, within the Oz racing scene.
In the last 25 years it has been increasingly more difficult to break into F1, it is in part the reason that the standard of drivers in V8 Supercars is so high, many drivers now stay home instead of trying their luck in Europe. To drive at the higher levels require good sponsors and for ANZAC'S it is an uphill struggle, even though they have proved that they can compete at the highest level. The hope when MW finally got into F1, was that Australia had a foot in the door, they had an F1 team and a driver. As it turned out, PS was an absolute waste of space and Mark W did not deliver (blame it on the car if you like), it is however still a case of unmet expectations.

[aryan]

no matter what any of you say.

See, this is the dismisive attitude I'm talking about.

How much of your life have you spent in Australia or New Zealand Paul?

[aryan]

Is Paul a reincarnation of GW? Who knows, he can be as condescending but Garry was starting to mellow and even posted some thought provoking posts towards the end.

Yeah... I've also noticed many members join with a an eye towards trolling, but after a while they start contributing rather than flaming. Hope the same holds true for this man.

[DezinerPaul]

See, this is the dismisive attitude I'm talking about.

How much of your life have you spent in Australia or New Zealand Paul?
15 years and 20+ in California

[DezinerPaul]

See, this is the dismisive attitude I'm talking about.

How much of your life have you spent in Australia or New Zealand Paul?


You mean as dismissive as some of the reply's sent my way? The bottom line is I know what I know and am not willing to "mellow to please other" You post what I view as a good post, agree with me or not, I will be the first to say it is a good post. Attack mine with rambling rhetoric, you will be rejected. Take the time to read some of my responses, I am not here to gain "Brownie Points" but will give credit where it is due! As for what people think about my posts, I really don't care!

[DezinerPaul]

Yeah... I've also noticed many members join with a an eye towards trolling, but after a while they start contributing rather than flaming. Hope the same holds true for this man.


You mean they start agreeing with you! Well it will not happen here, I am not interested in pleasing you or anybody else. As for trolling, me thinks it is you that is trolling, or trying to get others to agree with you. In future, post something worth saying and I may respond.

[Tumbo]

ANZAC has will continue to be a term of solidarity and endearment for those from Oz and NZ, no matter what any of you say.

I quite like the way you say you're not a biggot yet shove down the throats of Australians a term that you clearly do NOT understand. The ANZAC spirit is what we refer to ANZACs are our soldiers, get this right and then maybe an open discussion can continue.

As for MW, he's no premier driver, he wasn't expected by those who knew his developing career and followed his results to do anything much in the Minardi because the car wasn't up to matching any of the top 5 teams.

When he moved across to Jag the hope was for podiums, these weren't achieved (combination of driver and car no question but still some stellar performances in an underachieving car), the move to Williams is where we can see disappointment based on what the car should have done. Of course Heidfeld had 1 pole no wins and finished behind in the points only due to his hsoulder injury preventing him from competing at the end of the season.

While on some levels MW has failed to live up to inflated expectations and failed to show what is required to win the WDC, he clearly is the drivers driver (and if required quotes from drivers saying that effect can be found) and a strong asset for any team. End of the day he's in the Red Bull, the team is in 4th, he's outperforming Button, Barrichello, Coulthard, Rosberg, how is he a failure?

[DezinerPaul]

I quite like the way you say you're not a biggot yet shove down the throats of Australians a term that you clearly do NOT understand. The ANZAC spirit is what we refer to ANZACs are our soldiers, get this right and then maybe an open discussion can continue.

As for MW, he's no premier driver, he wasn't expected by those who knew his developing career and followed his results to do anything much in the Minardi because the car wasn't up to matching any of the top 5 teams.

When he moved across to Jag the hope was for podiums, these weren't achieved (combination of driver and car no question but still some stellar performances in an underachieving car), the move to Williams is where we can see disappointment based on what the car should have done. Of course Heidfeld had 1 pole no wins and finished behind in the points only due to his hsoulder injury preventing him from competing at the end of the season.

While on some levels MW has failed to live up to inflated expectations and failed to show what is required to win the WDC, he clearly is the drivers driver (and if required quotes from drivers saying that effect can be found) and a strong asset for any team. End of the day he's in the Red Bull, the team is in 4th, he's outperforming Button, Barrichello, Coulthard, Rosberg, how is he a failure?


Still do not agree with your view on ANZAC, mine is not a bigots view(that is just plain silly) You say that real success was not expected of him in Australia, that just is not so. Hope may have not been realistic, they were however very high, when hi signed for Williams, Oz was euphoric, he was being touted as the man to push Michael. At the end of the day, it is a long shot that will see another ANZAC in F1

[Tumbo]

a long shot to see another in F1.........unless the formula changes it's name in the next decade then that is a huge call. There is plenty of talent in Australia who choose not to go down the F1 route that is for sure, but look at the likes of Will Power who chose to go o/s because open wheel rather than touring car racing is what they prefer, or from over the tasmin Scott Dixon who would show Seabass a thing or two about open wheel success, to write off two nations, one of which has produced 2 WDCs for all time is an enormous call without evidence, and using Webber as the bench mark is more absurd.

yes there were large expectations when he signed for williams but what the media reported and those who didn't follow the formula believed and what the supporters who watched the season and saw the materials that were delieved expected were exceptionally different.

I'm no MW fan, to me he's a second rate driver who is good at giving manu points and helping in development but isn't in the same class as hamilton/raikkonen/massa/kubica/alonso and to a lesser extent heidfeld. having said that the statistics do NOT show his career as a failure and were it not for the le mans incident and mercedes blamming the driver rather than design team he may have shown he could be WDC by staring in the McLaren

[ioan]

I quite like the way you say you're not a biggot yet shove down the throats of Australians a term that you clearly do NOT understand. The ANZAC spirit is what we refer to ANZACs are our soldiers, get this right and then maybe an open discussion can continue.

Ever crossed your mind that other may refer to you as ANZAC without asking for your blessing?!
It's not like you are in charge of coming up with the terms other people on Earth use to talk about you. :rolleyes:

[DezinerPaul]

Lets get one thing straight, I am not saying that Oz/Kiwi brigade are short on talent, that would just plain silly. What I am saying, is that they will struggle to get the sponsors. We see people from places like India, Japan and Malaysia get a seat, when they have very little talent. There are sponsors that will really stand behind the drivers from their respective countries.
When Mark broke in, with the help of Minardi, it is safe to say, that without that help,he would have not got that start. My guess is that the future for Oz/Kiwi hopefuls will be to the East across the Pacific. NASCAR and IRL is a much better draw.

[Tumbo]

i'm just going to keep my mouth away from the bait and stick to the MW topic; it's clear there is a divergence of opinion here that will not be rectified so we can move on, my real gripe is w/ the manner in which it is 'explained' to us about the use of this term, there are plenty of terms Australians use in reference to other nationalities which are incorrect and can be deemed offensive, should we turn around and say when this is pointed out that we can call them what we like? I'd rather know to change my usage................but we can agree to disagree

[Tumbo]

I would agree that Australians and NZs will struggle to get sponsership, but that doesn't really have much to do w/ MW. We have always struggled due to the nature of our economy, remoteness and most importantly small impact on global markets. while MW becoming WDC may have changed that i don't think it would have had a major influence, i'd say MW has been a success in F1 showing what staying power can achieve, and given when he was there in the Schumacher era his chances of a title were remote and fighting for one remoter still w/ the teams he has come onboard w/.

Totally agree w/ your points above tho

[Robinho]

You mean they start agreeing with you! Well it will not happen here, I am not interested in pleasing you or anybody else. As for trolling, me thinks it is you that is trolling, or trying to get others to agree with you. In future, post something worth saying and I may respond.

for what its worth, there is no requirement for you to agree with anyone here, and you are welcome to express your opinion, especially if it is a knowledgable and reasoned one, even if not all agree with it.

however, you do not have the right (nor does anyone else) to "reject" anyones opinion, or peddle opinions as facts.

if you see things differently, great, if you want to argue/discuss with these people, great, you may even change somones opinion with a decent arguement, but you will also have to learn to agree to disagree, rather than tell people they are flat out wrong.

this is something that some people here do struggle with, but others, who i often don't agree with, i respect for their ability to do.

none of us are right all the time, especially with something as subjective as sport, and F1 specifically.

on this occaision i don't agree with your view of Webber, i do think he has had high expectations on him, and not always delivered results, however, when givem the opportunity he has always shown enough to keep that expectation burning and this year i think he is taking the opportunity with both hand, and i expect him to still land a decent drive and win a few races at the least (an opinion i also have of Jenson Button, but thats a whole other show)

[Robinho]

apparently Mark Webber would like to comment on this thread, but he's a bit busy sticking the red bull on the front row of the grid ;)

[DezinerPaul]

apparently Mark Webber would like to comment on this thread, but he's a bit busy sticking the red bull on the front row of the grid ;)


and at days end, it would mean nothing,

[ShiftingGears]

apparently Mark Webber would like to comment on this thread, but he's a bit busy sticking the red bull on the front row of the grid ;)

Sh!t yeah :D :D

[yodasarmpit]

and at days end, it would mean nothing,
?

[Robinho]

and at days end, it would mean nothing,

why, it was a great performance, yes its only qualifying, but its all counts towards a race weekend. i'd say he's exceeded the expectation for a qualifying position for a Red Bull, you can't just discount anything he does that is good to support a view that he has not done as well as expected.

[Tazio]

why, it was a great performance, yes its only qualifying, but its all counts towards a race weekend. i'd say he's exceeded the expectation for a qualifying position for a Red Bull, you can't just discount anything he does that is good to support a view that he has not done as well as expected.Give it up! Even a race win wouldn't change Designer Paul's opinnion!

[maxu05]

Go MW, stick it to em :up:

[maxu05]

Designer, Fabricator are all in the same industry are they not :)
Go MW, give em some stick :up:

[Robinho]

Give it up! Even a race win wouldn't change Designer Paul's opinnion!

which is fair enough, i wouldn't expect someone to completley change their opinion of someone, its the disregard of other opinions or arguements to back up their thoughts which mystifes.

[veeten]

Webber is living up to his capabilities, and it seems that Red Bull has brought the car up with him.

Vettel is looking more the replacement, with his performance today, for the retiring Coulthard.

[DezinerPaul]

why, it was a great performance, yes its only qualifying, but its all counts towards a race weekend. i'd say he's exceeded the expectation for a qualifying position for a Red Bull, you can't just discount anything he does that is good to support a view that he has not done as well as expected.

You are talking about a race weekend, I am talking about an entire career.

[Tazio]

You are talking about a race weekend, I am talking about an entire career.Which would include every race untill he retires!

[Daniel]

DezinerPaul is a great guy. I'll continue to read his posts to see what not to think.

[markabilly]

may be webber's race....he does not seem to be real light as his gap between q2 and q3 was about the same as the top four.

If anything, it is HK who might be light, as his gap is much smaller.

[Whyzars]

ANZAC has will continue to be a term of solidarity and endearment for those from Oz and NZ, no matter what any of you say.

It is a term of solidarity and endearment but we don't say it, we just know it. We also know from our friends in New Zealand why we should all wear gum boots when we make love to a sheep but that story is for another forum.

ANZAC is a word that should be used sparingly and with respect as there are a great many sadnesses attached to it. I would ask that you refrain from continuing to refer to Australian's and New Zealander's as ANZAC's as we don't refer to ourselves using this word and it would be a very sad day if ever ANZAC became "common" in its use.


Maybe the term you're looking for is 'digger' or 'mate' - or 'matey' if you're from the Territory. You could also try 'Bluey' in a pinch although the carrot toppers have always owned that one. You can call us any of these and we won't mind. We might grind our teeth down to our gums but we won't mind. :)



As for what it means regarding Mark being in F1, it appears that there are some Australians that are out of touch with the general thinking, within the Oz racing scene.


Anyone in the "Oz racing scene" who doesn't take pride in Mark's success and wish him every good fortune must be an ****hole.

Just my humble opinion of course... :)



In the last 25 years it has been increasingly more difficult to break into F1, it is in part the reason that the standard of drivers in V8 Supercars is so high, many drivers now stay home instead of trying their luck in Europe. To drive at the higher levels require good sponsors and for AUSTRALIANS it is an uphill struggle, even though they have proved that they can compete at the highest level.

Are you including Alan Jones in this as its around 25 years since AJ's last race? Heck, let's drag Sir Jack Brabham's name into this as well. Why doesn't old Jack dust off the team and hire all the out of work Australian race car driver's. :p

You are correct that there are talented drivers in Australia but it is difficult to gauge their ability against drivers from Europe or the U.S..

There has never really been a time in Australia that drivers could live off the income from driving alone. The V8 Supercar series has provided enough money to make professional driving viable and so drivers have not felt the need to go overseas. I fear that the days of the V8's may be numbered however from falling vehicle sales seeing sponsors dropping out.

They'll be calling the replacement series the Prius Supercar Series and we will watch the cars buzz and humm away from the start line. :s



The hope when MW finally got into F1, was that Australia had a foot in the door, they had an F1 team and a driver. As it turned out, PS was an absolute waste of space and Mark W did not deliver (blame it on the car if you like), it is however still a case of unmet expectations.

Now you're just being silly. In my opinion Paul Stoddard and Mark Webber owe nobody nuffin' and the Australian foot was already firmly in the F1 door when they came along through Sir Jack and Alan Jones.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. That so few have climbed to those heights is what makes it so special. I think its easy for us to forget how hard every driver has worked to achieve, and keep, their F1 seat.

What Mark has proved is that F1 recognises talent above all else. Mark had an opportunity with Minardi and he grabbed it by the scruff of the neck. Most drivers don't get that chance or get the chance and blow it. The road to F1 is littered with many, many brilliant drivers who never got the chance to drive a lowly Minardi.


BTW, did you happen to catch that Mark Webber character failing to get poll? Red Bull should dock him a day's pay... ;)

[DezinerPaul]

It is a term of solidarity and endearment but we don't say it, we just know it. We also know from our friends in New Zealand why we should all wear gum boots when we make love to a sheep but that story is for another forum.

ANZAC is a word that should be used sparingly and with respect as there are a great many sadnesses attached to it. I would ask that you refrain from continuing to refer to Australian's and New Zealander's as ANZAC's as we don't refer to ourselves using this word and it would be a very sad day if ever ANZAC became "common" in its use.


Maybe the term you're looking for is 'digger' or 'mate' - or 'matey' if you're from the Territory. You could also try 'Bluey' in a pinch although the carrot toppers have always owned that one. You can call us any of these and we won't mind. We might grind our teeth down to our gums but we won't mind. :)




Anyone in the "Oz racing scene" who doesn't take pride in Mark's success and wish him every good fortune must be an ****hole.

Just my humble opinion of course... :)




Are you including Alan Jones in this as its around 25 years since AJ's last race? Heck, let's drag Sir Jack Brabham's name into this as well. Why doesn't old Jack dust off the team and hire all the out of work Australian race car driver's. :p

You are correct that there are talented drivers in Australia but it is difficult to gauge their ability against drivers from Europe or the U.S..

There has never really been a time in Australia that drivers could live off the income from driving alone. The V8 Supercar series has provided enough money to make professional driving viable and so drivers have not felt the need to go overseas. I fear that the days of the V8's may be numbered however from falling vehicle sales seeing sponsors dropping out.

They'll be calling the replacement series the Prius Supercar Series and we will watch the cars buzz and humm away from the start line. :s




Now you're just being silly. In my opinion Paul Stoddard and Mark Webber owe nobody nuffin' and the Australian foot was already firmly in the F1 door when they came along through Sir Jack and Alan Jones.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. That so few have climbed to those heights is what makes it so special. I think its easy for us to forget how hard every driver has worked to achieve, and keep, their F1 seat.

What Mark has proved is that F1 recognises talent above all else. Mark had an opportunity with Minardi and he grabbed it by the scruff of the neck. Most drivers don't get that chance or get the chance and blow it. The road to F1 is littered with many, many brilliant drivers who never got the chance to drive a lowly Minardi.


BTW, did you happen to catch that Mark Webber character failing to get poll? Red Bull should dock him a day's pay... ;)



What in the blue moon do Sir Jack and Jones have to do with here and now. The point was and is that Australians are not marketable in Europe, while in the States they are. It therefore makes sense for the drivers to try and break in in the States. To that end, I hear that a second Aussie has signed to do a limited run in in NASCAR, I imagine it will be the Nationwide, even so, he is the second of what could be many!

[aryan]

DezinerPaul is a great guy. I'll continue to read his posts to see what not to think.

:rotflmao:

[aryan]

20+ in California

Yes, that is clearly valid to the subject at hand. :dozey:

[Valve Bounce]

Ever crossed your mind that other may refer to you as ANZAC without asking for your blessing?!
It's not like you are in charge of coming up with the terms other people on Earth use to talk about you. :rolleyes:

ioan, please try not to be argumentative if, in the process, you show your ignorance in public. Tumbo is correct about the term ANZACs and if you only bothered to look it up in google before you put your foot in your mouth, (again :rolleues: ), you might post more positively. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZAC_Day

[Valve Bounce]

ANZAC has will continue to be a term of solidarity and endearment for those from Oz and NZ, no matter what any of you say. .

Please, as with ioahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZAC_Dayn, try not to display your ignorance in public.

[Valve Bounce]

Designer, Fabricator are all in the same industry are they not :)


Something to do with bovine organic waste.

[DezinerPaul]

Wonder of he will end up in the points

[gloomyDAY]

Wonder of he will end up in the points

http://www.businessinnovationinsider.com/images/2006/02/Troll.jpg (http://www.businessinnovationinsider.com/images/2006/02/Troll.jpg)

[Tazio]

Wonder of he will end up in the points
If you don't think so, we could turn it into a sig bet! What say ye?

[DezinerPaul]

If you don't think so, we could turn it into a sig bet! What say ye?


Make it podiums and you are on!

[Tazio]

Make it podiums and you are on!
Nice!!!!! But No dice!

[DezinerPaul]

Nice!!!!! But No dice!


The question was will he finish in the points, while the bet is that he will not podium! Any MW fans want to take the sig bet, I am in!

[Ari]

Sucks to create a Webber bashing thread and then have him bolt the RBR on the front row only a couple days later when DC places it in 11th! ;)

Btw.... a good measure of whether a driver is any good is to compare them to their teammate who is driving the same equipment. In races completed, the following table shows how Webber has done vs his team mate since 2000 (current october 2007).

http://www.users.on.net/~washing/misc/driverfinishingstats.png

[Valve Bounce]

Make it podiums and you are on!

I'll back against bunsen - you game??

[DezinerPaul]

Sucks to create a Webber bashing thread and then have him bolt the RBR on the front row only a couple days later when DC places it in 11th! ;)

Btw.... a good measure of whether a driver is any good is to compare them to their teammate who is driving the same equipment. In races completed, the following table shows how Webber has done vs his team mate since 2000 (current october 2007).

http://www.users.on.net/%7Ewashing/misc/driverfinishingstats.png





A perfect example of stacked stats being used to make a point. One could could pick a million holes with "your stats" However, if you want those stats to be credible, I have one simple request, please furnish the same stat for all races started, not just those finished.

[DezinerPaul]

I'll back against bunsen - you game??
Are you kidding, even Jenson would not pick himself. How about Massa, he is starting 7 spots behind MW?

[ShiftingGears]

A perfect example of stacked stats being used to make a point.

:laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

Are you kidding, even Jenson would not pick himself. How about Massa, he is starting 7 spots behind MW?

You're on!! Don't forget - you or I wear the sig until the next GP.

[DezinerPaul]

I am cool with that, one point, nothing derogatory to any members on the site!
You're on!! Don't forget - you or I wear the sig until the next GP.

[Valve Bounce]

read my sig!!

[MadDan]

as good as mark is going
one aussie is going better in f1 Chris Dwyer

[DezinerPaul]

read my sig!!


Fair enough, I have made a sig, just for you!

[Valve Bounce]

Get real!! you won't get the chance. :)

[Azumanga Davo]

:laugh:

I know, the guy's roundabout thinking behind stats is amazing.

[PSfan]

Sucks to create a Webber bashing thread and then have him bolt the RBR on the front row only a couple days later when DC places it in 11th! ;)

Btw.... a good measure of whether a driver is any good is to compare them to their teammate who is driving the same equipment. In races completed, the following table shows how Webber has done vs his team mate since 2000 (current october 2007).

http://www.users.on.net/~washing/misc/driverfinishingstats.png


Hey, thanks for re-posting this... I get to dig up my response and correct my typo's :)

Ok, I just went over spent a bit o time on F1-facts.com... I came up with Webber having 30-5 advantage, to the end of this season. However, I did notice after the fact that at least 2 races Webbers team-mates may have been classified, but probably didn't finish the race (One race Heidfeld was classified 4 laps down, which sounds odd for a Williams unless it had suffered some form of trauma. And Pizzonia was also Classified but also had suffered a collision so probably dnf'd as well... which would put my calculations at 28-5 which is still pretty good until you consider that with the exception of Heidfeld and Coulthard ALL of the other drivers racing with Webber where essentially rookies. Yoong has a grand total of 18 races under his belt, Wilson 16, Pizzonia in his shortened season with Jaguar and fill in at Williams a grand total of 20. It was Kliens first season, Rosberg's as well... So lets all stand up and applaud the great Webber for beating so many rookies!!!

Oh and thumbs up after all the well wishing sent towards Valve lately, you pull out these statistics that suggest his favorite driver is the crappiest :p :

[jens]

Didn't have the opportunity to comment qualifying, but Mark's quali performance was truly exceptional and surprising. "Qualifier of the day" yesterday.

Before today's race, when it was clear it was going to be a wet race, I even thought that Mark may have a chance to win, but happened the reverse, which reminded his fate years ago, when after starting from a very good position he binned it on Lap1 (like Malaysia'04 for example). Webber has recently proved to be quite a reliable and errorfree driver, so it was odd to see him going back to his 'old self'. 4 spins or what? Anyway, everyone has his lows. ;) But a shame he starting messing it up, when he had a chance of getting a better result than just points - for example podium.

[ShiftingGears]

Do Red Bull have a strategist?

He was going excellently to catch up to everyone in the first stint after his spin, and then kept the tyres on at the pits when it started raining harder. What were they thinking, firstly keeping them on, secondly not changing to full wets after it was obvious that they weren't going anywhere on inters
?


Incredible.

[MadDan]

i can only think they may have thought that the rain would not come and the track would dry out and we do not know what set up mark had in the test last week :blackeye:

[markabilly]

Do Red Bull have a strategist?

He was going excellently to catch up to everyone in the first stint after his spin, and then kept the tyres on at the pits when it started raining harder. What were they thinking, firstly keeping them on, secondly not changing to full wets after it was obvious that they weren't going anywhere on inters
?


Incredible.


Powered by renault and inspired by ferrari..... :D

[Rollo]

I would agree that Australians and NZs will struggle to get sponsership, but that doesn't really have much to do w/ MW. We have always struggled due to the nature of our economy, remoteness and most importantly small impact on global markets. while MW becoming WDC may have changed that i don't think it would have had a major influence

I think that this is also to do with a structural problem with Australian motorsport. We have a Holden/Ford duopoly to the severe exclusion of anything that even gets close. The Mitsubishi 380's failure in the marketplace was helped in part by not having the ability to market the car because Holden & Ford refused to admit it as a V8 Supercar.

Likewise the Bathurst 24 Hour race devolved into farce when Holden "developed" the 427 Monaro by essentially building a GT2 prototype to race against GT3 cars, killed it and then wondered why it failed.

Because the pool of sponsorship money is so heavily focused within Australia it's myopic to the point where drivers in Australia simply have to leave in order to ply their trade if they have any hope of even being noticed.

In Webber's case, Yellow Pages needs to be applauded for believing in I'm even if he's not quite the top cut. I'm sure Webber could fall back into a drive at HRT and totally kill all and sundry in Australia.

[Tumbo]

i would agree w/ ur sentiments Rollo yellow pages did a fantastic job in helping MW get a seat in Europe and eventually get himself into F1. As for the racing scene here in Australia it's a real shame we don't further open our minds to series other than the v8s..........or even put some proper effort behind our A1GP team and try and get guys into open wheelers in Europe via that route.

[Daniel]

i would agree w/ ur sentiments Rollo yellow pages did a fantastic job in helping MW get a seat in Europe and eventually get himself into F1. As for the racing scene here in Australia it's a real shame we don't further open our minds to series other than the v8s..........or even put some proper effort behind our A1GP team and try and get guys into open wheelers in Europe via that route.
The problem is and no offence to any Australians here (me included) but people in Australia kind of see V8 Stupidcars as the pinnacle of motorsport :mark:

[ST205GT4]

Sadly true Daniel.

Back on topic. No it won't be Webber's last contract. If DC can last till 37 or 38 or whatever he is, Webber can last just as easily.

Did he live up to expectations? The answer for me would be no, but I would qualify that by saying that either through mismanagement or poor decision making on Mark's own behalf he never got the chance to land a top drive. He might get a chance to show something if RBR continues to develop at the same pace, but then he also needs to make sure he doesn't throw chances like last nights away either.

Finally the application of the term ANZAC to anyone outside of the Australian or New Zealand armed forces, whether you've lived in Australia for 15 years or not, shows zero understanding of what the term actually means. Continuing to use it when that has been pointed out to you by numerous Australians, is just you being bull-headed. If you want other people to stick the facts, then man up and take your own advice.

[Ranger]

The problem is and no offence to any Australians here (me included) but people in Australia kind of see V8 Stupidcars as the pinnacle of motorsport :mark:

The structural preconditions for Australian and New Zealand drivers to venture and sustain themselves overseas doesn't really exist, because the money and the exposure goes towards V8's. The same story in America with IndyCar and NASCAR.
IMO the bottom line for both F1 prospective Australian, NZ and American drivers is that none of these drivers want to spend several years of their lives scratching around in Europe meeting dead ends when they could rather comfortably graduate to tin-tops in their own homeland, earning a good living.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is where most of the talent stops.

[Azumanga Davo]

The problem is and no offence to any Australians here (me included) but people in Australia kind of see V8 Stupidcars as the pinnacle of motorsport :mark:

Yep. Bloody bunch of idiots when it comes to priorities. I certainly love to see diversity in my motorsport, but the rules in place at the moment make anything bar a Holden/Ford duopoly difficult to justify.

[Daniel]

Yep. Bloody bunch of idiots when it comes to priorities. I certainly love to see diversity in my motorsport, but the rules in place at the moment make anything bar a Holden/Ford duopoly difficult to justify.
Couldn't agree more. I think the main thing behind Mark's career progression was getting out of Australia ASAP. If you look at lots of the talent in Australia the ones that make it onto the world scene are generally the ones that don't spend their time competing in Australian motorsport for too long.

[Mickey T]

Which expectations would they be? Webber is one driver who can be relied on to deliver what his car is capable of with consistency. It may very well be that Webber is lost to F1 but that will not be because of any failure as a driver.

F1 is a two car category, one sometimes, and we shouldn't be so quick to condemn drivers for not winning in second and third string cars that are simply not up to the task.

Personally I think you just wanted to use the acronym ANZAC in a post even though Mark Webber is not a soldier and does not have any link to New Zealand but thats just my humble opinion. An arguably more accurate way to describe a driver from Down Under would be antipodean...

;)


agree with you about the Australia and New Zealand Army Corps and, if anybody has the word ANZAC in common usage to describe people from the southern oceans, they would be plain wrong.

Australasian is the appropriate word.

antipodean is not. it simply refers to the opposite hemisphere to the one you are in. eg, for an australian, europe is antipodean.

here endeth the lesson.

oh, and mark has made more failures pre season when he's making career decisions than he has in the cars from which he-s extracting everything.

he has long been in a no-win situation. if he qualifies an ordinary car better than it deserves, he looks, understandably, slow in the race and is passed by drivers in faster cars.

[Rollo]

Finally the application of the term ANZAC to anyone outside of the Australian or New Zealand armed forces

Biscuits?

[Mickey T]

Biscuits?

... were so named because they were originally brewed up to feed said ANZACS in WWI

[DezinerPaul]

Biscuits?



There is also the cricket tests between Aus and NZ

[Rollo]

... were so named because they were originally brewed up to feed said ANZACS in WWI

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/gabobrien/poida.jpg

DER!!!

... always wanted to do that.

[ST205GT4]

Biscuits?

Come on Rollo you're just taking the piss now.

And the cricket tests have nothing to do with "ANZAC". Give it up for god's sake and just get back to your topic.

[Daniel]

Come on Rollo you're just taking the piss now.

And the cricket tests have nothing to do with "ANZAC". Give it up for god's sake and just get back to your topic.
Rollo taking the piss?!?!?!?! Never! :p

[Valve Bounce]

Fair enough, I have made a sig, just for you!

OK Buddy! this is your sig for a fortnight: " Mark Webber is the most underrated driver in F1."

I couldn't post this before today as I just got home.

[Valve Bounce]

Rollo taking the piss?!?!?!?! Never! :p

I don't know about piss, but I know he is full of bovine organic waste. :D

[Rollo]

Not any more... Mr Rudd's bloody emissions tax put an end to that.
I'm going to have to switch to cleaner energy in future like gasbagging and hot air production.

[MadDan]

I would not count this as a new contract i think you will find that this is a contract extension

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23967189-5001023,00.html


"We are delighted to confirm the extension of Mark's relationship into 2009,'' commented Red Bull team principle Christian Horner. "It was a straightforward and short discussion process.''

Over the last season and a half Coulthard and Webber have helped Red Bull establish themselves as a competitive F1 outfit. So far this season their efforts have guided the team to fourth place in the constructors' championship.

[DezinerPaul]

OK Buddy! this is your sig for a fortnight: " Mark Webber is the most underrated driver in F1."

I couldn't post this before today as I just got home.

Have added your sig as agreed, hope you enjoy!

[Valve Bounce]

Have added your sig as agreed, hope you enjoy!

No. leave out the according to valve bounce part. This is your punishment. And you have to wear it for two weeks because I just got home today.

[DezinerPaul]

No. leave out the according to valve bounce part. This is your punishment. And you have to wear it for two weeks because I just got home today.

Now, now, if I am correct you said I had to have your sig for two weeks, am I not doing what was agree! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Now, now, if I am correct you said I had to have your sig for two weeks, am I not doing what was agree! :D

Just put your sig exactly as requested. You lost the bet, remember!!

[DezinerPaul]

Just put your sig exactly as requested. You lost the bet, remember!!

Ok, I will make a deal with you, as soon as I lost the bet, you sig was put on my profle and has been there since. So I will put your sig exactly as you have written it for one more week, fair enough?

[Valve Bounce]

Ok, I will make a deal with you, as soon as I lost the bet, you sig was put on my profle and has been there since. So I will put your sig exactly as you have written it for one more week, fair enough?

Keep the sig for two weeks. I checked your sig when I came home yesterday. You'd just come back from a ban, remember?

[DezinerPaul]

Keep the sig for two weeks. I checked your sig when I came home yesterday. You'd just come back from a ban, remember?

Yes indeed but I did have the sig before that!

[Valve Bounce]

Yes indeed but I did have the sig before that!

No you didn't - I checked that. You only changed it to the correct sig yesterday.

Are you trying to welch on your first sig bet here in this forum?

[MadDan]

No you didn't - I checked that. You only changed it to the correct sig yesterday.

Are you trying to welch on your first sig bet here in this forum?

to be fair he did have a copy of your on about tuesday or wednesday

[Valve Bounce]

to be fair he did have a copy of your on about tuesday or wednesday

Don't be ridigilis. I was in hospital and only came home on Thursday. I wasn't even online then.

[MadDan]

Don't be ridigilis. I was in hospital and only came home on Thursday. I wasn't even online then.


he had a copy of Valve Mark shows bunsen how it's done

[Valve Bounce]

he had a copy of Valve Mark shows bunsen how it's done

Good grief!! Have you checked DP's sig? The bet was that the winner chooses the sig the loser has to wear; not the winner's sig! :rolleyes:

[DezinerPaul]

No you didn't - I checked that. You only changed it to the correct sig yesterday.

Are you trying to welch on your first sig bet here in this forum?

Now that is not fair, I do not lie and I changed to you sig, the moment the race was over. However in the spirit of the bet, I have no problem keeping it on, for "your two weeks"

[Valve Bounce]

Now that is not fair, I do not lie and I changed to you sig, the moment the race was over. However in the spirit of the bet, I have no problem keeping it on, for "your two weeks"
I think the bet was the winner picks the sig the loser has to wear. I've been offline since Sunday and only returned home yesterday, so I couldn't give you the sig. However, I did agree with you that it would not be an insulting sig - I hope you agree with that.

[DezinerPaul]

I think the bet was the winner picks the sig the loser has to wear. I've been offline since Sunday and only returned home yesterday, so I couldn't give you the sig. However, I did agree with you that it would not be an insulting sig - I hope you agree with that.

Yes, that is cool!